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DaBrode
03-08-2007, 02:04
I understand the need for initiative order as it stands however a friend and I during a friendly game came to a debate when he insisted that it matters when, on a charge, I roll the attack with my boar vs. my warboss.

When a person is the charger all of his/her attacks come before yours (barring various magic items) and therefore does it matter when I roll the dice for each attacker? The only case I could come up with would be if my warboss had a one-shot item that he ended up not having to use because the boars attack made the kill first.

So I'm wondering if anyone else feels this is a big deal or even if it matters? Perhaps there is something to it I don't understand.

Kotobuki
03-08-2007, 02:20
Chargers strike first, regardless of Initiative, which leads me to believe that initiative is discounted, and all chargers attacks are simultaneous. If that is truly the case, then it doesn't matter what order you roll your dice in, the effect will always be the same. This does mean that your boar's attacks can't save you from using your magic item.

empireguard
03-08-2007, 02:31
I think Kotobuki is right, but I'm not 100% sure on this It's possible chargers still strike in I order. However most of the time this wouldn't make any difference

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-08-2007, 06:07
Usually it doesn't matter when you roll the attacks anyway as long as you resolve all your attacks that goes before your opponent.

DaBrode
03-08-2007, 06:40
This does mean that your boar's attacks can't save you from using your magic item.

Well his argument was (and I agreed with him at this point) that if my character had a magic item that for the sake of this discussion "doubled" his attacks (one use only) and I attacked first with the mount and did well...

*deep breath*

...I would then be less likely to use the item because I'd know I've already done the damage I needed to and a simple round of my normal attacks should polish of my foe.

At any rate...I was simply curious of what others had to say on it. My friend argued further that even in the case of not having a mgic item of the above nature that it still mattered at which point I looked at him cross-eyed and dumbfounded.

empireguard
03-08-2007, 06:53
well thats probably just a case of saying you are/are not going to use the Item before any attacks are made

T10
03-08-2007, 06:57
Chargers strike first, regardless of Initiative, which leads me to believe that initiative is discounted, and all chargers attacks are simultaneous. If that is truly the case, then it doesn't matter what order you roll your dice in, the effect will always be the same. This does mean that your boar's attacks can't save you from using your magic item.

Very well: A unit of Empire Swordsmen (I 4) are charged in the front by a unit of Warriors of Chaos (I 5) armed with Great Weapons. Before the combat is resolved, a nearby unit of Empire Knights of the Order (I 3) including a Empire Captain (I 5) break their enemy and pursue into the flank of the Warriors of Chaos.

Chargers strike first. In case of multiple chargers, the chargers strike in initiative order. In case of equal intiative roll a die to resolve the tie.

The Warriros of Chaos are armed with great weapons, but are not required to strike laston the turn they charge. They are matched in Initiative by the Empire Captain, so they need to roll off vs. him. Let's assume he wins out.

1. Empire Captain (charge, I 5, won tie-breaker roll)
2. Warriors of Chaos (charge, I 5)
3. Empire Knights of the Order and their horses (charge, I 3)
4. Empire Swordsmen (I 4)

That should clear up any misunderstanding regarding who strikes first during a charge.

Now, the secondary issue: Avoiding using your weapon. I am afraid the rules do not cover that particular approach to combat, and you will need to conform to the commonly held conventios for working out attacks.

Personally, I would not object to a player wanting to make the most of his one-use sword.

-T10

Masque
03-08-2007, 08:52
Chargers strike first. In case of multiple chargers, the chargers strike in initiative order. In case of equal intiative roll a die to resolve the tie.

The Warriros of Chaos are armed with great weapons, but are not required to strike laston the turn they charge. They are matched in Initiative by the Empire Captain, so they need to roll off vs. him. Let's assume he wins out.

The Warriors in this case would always strike after the Captain and the Knights. Great Weapons go last whenever you compare initiative which you do when there are multiple chargers.

Aflo
03-08-2007, 09:31
With regards to the magic item, surely you could just decide not to use your magic item and use your standard hand weapon instead?

Atrahasis
03-08-2007, 12:31
With regards to the magic item, surely you could just decide not to use your magic item and use your standard hand weapon instead?

No. A model with a magic weapon must use it. The only exception is a mounted Brettonian who must use his lance in the first round before switching to his magic weapon in second and subsequent rounds.

Xyon
03-08-2007, 12:49
Honestly, your friend is just a little upset :-), you are able to decide whether you want to use the special one time effect or not before you roll for attacks for your character, if you want to be fairer to your opponents, just declare whether you will or not before rolling any attacks. But you don't have to roll your warboss before his boar.

enyoss
03-08-2007, 14:49
I actually think that using initiative order on the charge is quite an important mechanic of the game. I think ignoring it is a bit of a cop out! :)

For example, let's say I have a trooper with 2A on the edge of a unit, only in base contact with an enemy wizard with two wounds. Let's say I also have a character with higher I in base to base with the enemy wizard.

Now, the strike in initiative order rule gives rise to some tough decisions. Do I use all my character's attacks on the wizard to be sure of killing him and then waste my trooper's attacks. Alternatively, do I allocate no attacks from my character onto the wizard and hope the trooper gets lucky?

I can think of loads of similar examples.

I really like the added complexity this brings to the decision making process as a general (not the game-play which is, in my opinion, pretty straightforward).

Cheers,

enyoss

T10
06-08-2007, 15:01
The Warriors in this case would always strike after the Captain and the Knights. Great Weapons go last whenever you compare initiative which you do when there are multiple chargers.

That would appear to be correct, but it is not.

Models strike at the earliest opportunity as follows.

1. Chargers -> Order of initiative -> Roll off (p. 34; p. 45)
2. Order of initiative -> Won previous round -> Roll off (p. 34)
3. Great Weapons -> Order of initiative -> Roll off (pp. 54-5)

(The list could be more extensive, but I'm sticking to my original example).

The rules for great weapons say that they strike last where they would otherwise strike in order of initiative. But the rules also say that when charging they strike first in stead of in initiative order.

The obvious counter-argument is that the primary tie-breaker for chargers is "order of intiative", so the great weapons should strike last. But they are still chargers so they should strike first. An unresolvable situation.

As the assumption that great weapons influence the tie-breaker produces a useless result it is logical to conclude that the assumption is false.

-T10

Colonel Raijan
06-08-2007, 15:06
those who charge strike first and the chargers with the highest initive strike before the others

Masque
06-08-2007, 15:31
The rules for great weapons say that they strike last where they would otherwise strike in order of initiative. But the rules also say that when charging they strike first in stead of in initiative order.

The part of the Strikes Last rules that 'allows' them to strike first when charging is merely a reminder of a previous rule not an actual rule itself. I think you are looking at GW in the same backwards fashion that many people do. You see the Strikes Last rule to be 'always fights last, except when charging' when the rule is really 'fights last instead of in initiative order'.

T10
07-08-2007, 06:29
Yes.

-T10

lethlis
07-08-2007, 20:04
I always thought that the one who charged most recently went first and it went in that order so in the first example the knights would go then the warriors then the swordsmen.

T10
08-08-2007, 07:20
Unlike 6th edition, 7th edition deals with the possibility of charging units on both sides of a combat and instructs us to use intiative as the tie-breaker.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-08-2007, 07:43
I actually think that using initiative order on the charge is quite an important mechanic of the game. I think ignoring it is a bit of a cop out! :)



But as near as I can tell, you don't use initiative order on the charge. All charging models simply strike first, overwriting initiative. So all charging models would strike simultaneously.

Masque
08-08-2007, 08:04
But as near as I can tell, you don't use initiative order on the charge. All charging models simply strike first, overwriting initiative. So all charging models would strike simultaneously.

Check out the last paragraph of page 45 of the BRB. You'll find that opposing chargers fight in initiative order.

DeathlessDraich
08-08-2007, 10:34
Great Weapons go last whenever you compare initiative.

This sent me scrambling back to the rule book and you're right of course.

Can I add that Initiative order and chargers only matter if opposing sides have charged into the same combat.

Q: Do players apply this to combat in the next turn as well or only in unresolved combats in the same turn?
I've applied this rule for both cases but I'm not certain.

Masque
08-08-2007, 10:39
Q: Do players apply this to combat in the next turn as well or only in unresolved combats in the same turn?
I've applied this rule for both cases but I'm not certain.

I think it pretty clearly applies in the next turn as well as the current turn.