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Flatline
03-08-2007, 13:04
I have been told that the background for th Orks contains references to them being created by the 'Brain Boyz' to fight against some powerful enemy. The implication being that the enemy was the C'Tan/Necrons.

I was wondering, that with the new Ork codex due shortly, whether GW would expand on this further. If what I said above is basically true (I don't have the old Ork books) then there is a 'history' between the two races. Even if that isn't the case then the Orks and the Necrons are fundamentally opposed to each other.

The Necrons are soulless killing machines. They seem to exist purely to kill all other sentient races. They are ordered, logical, emtionless and uniform in appearence and function. They are working to achieve a vast goal and devote all of their energy towards it.

The orks on the other hand are the ultimate free spirits. Their standard response to being told to do something is "Make me!" Their society is chaotic and disorganised. I see Orks running almost entirely on instinct and emotion. They live life to the full and at full throttle.

With the recent rise of the Necrons from their stasis, I wonder what the response of the Orks will be? At the very least the Necrons are a 'new' enemy to test their mettle on. What would be cool (IMO) is if the Ork subconscious recognised the Necrons as the Ancient Enemy and triggered a response in the Ork culture.

It would be a great reason for introducing new units, weapons and abilities to the Orks. They have a powerful genetic 'memory' and the Necrons could cause them to 'remember' things that they hadn't needed to know previously. After all, we forget skills if we don't use them. If the Necrons weren't about then the Orks wouldn't need their anti-Necron skills.

I also like the idea because it ties the Orks in strongly with the ancient history of the 40k universe and gives them a focus in the current time frame. It would be nice to see a bit more of the backgound that didn't involve the Imperium.

So, any thoughts?

icegreentea
03-08-2007, 14:04
well, in one of the cain novels, when orks find necrons they basically did the same thing they always do. shoot blindly while charging. apparently they could kill necron warriors by choppin off their heads with choppas. frankly, i like this kind of attitude. everyone else in the universe (well, maybe not chaos) starts getting scared. orks just go to WAAGHH. imho that is the perfect response against necrons.

jfrazell
03-08-2007, 14:13
Good points Flatline.
*I like the idea to use it as a new excuse for new (old?) weaponry, vehicles and tactics re-emerging. Excuse for the re-emergence of Shokk Attack Guns and other warp based proper orky tech.

*As necrons are the racial enemies of Orks I could see their emergence triggering a coalescing of the Waugh spirit, perhaps leading to several great Waughs or Ork Krusades. I could envision that encoded into their genes to combine when the presence of a necron threat is about.

*Coalescing Waugh, mayhaps the gestalt consciousness of Gork and Mork will stride the battlefield (in corporeal form or in the method of much stronger weridboy powers) to challenge the Ctan.

Turanos
03-08-2007, 14:32
This could be a good route to go for explaining new units for the Orks.

Even if they don't, the Orks and Necrons have plenty of reason to fight. The Necrons exist to destroy life, and the Orks BREED SO DAMN MUCH. The Orks love fighting, and the Necrons are an enemy that is always willing to try to kill you.

It's a match made in hell!

Mr_Smiley
03-08-2007, 14:43
Doesn't it say in the Necron Codex Krork(Orks) were made purely as a last ditch effort by the Old Ones simply so the Necrons would always have to fight someone on every planet?

As to special abilities, I like the idea a lot, it makes good sense, as to actually doing it in game is another thing.

jfrazell
03-08-2007, 14:55
Actually it says they were made to defend the last fortresses of the Old Ones-primarily against Enslavers. However, they would be equally efficacious against Necrons and surely would have fought them as well. When they were "hard coded" I would imagine the necron menace would have been hard coded into them as well.

CELS
03-08-2007, 15:42
Excellent ideas, Flatline. In fact, it's the first original attempt at creating new ideas for 40k while connecting the dots in a long, long time (at least that I have seen). Kudos. I shall certainly incorporate it in my own interpretation of the 40k universe.

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 17:54
I would say that the Eldar have more of a right to a repressed gene for killing Necrons than the Krorks(Orks). The Eldar are the ones continuing the war in heaven and they probably have tomes of ancient knowledge with information on the necrons and their destruction. In my opinion the other races need special tool for defeating the Necrons because the Necrons have only started to awaken, imagine what else they have hidden up their sleeve. Also, the Void Dragon, probably the most powerful C'Tan is still sleeping.

TheSonOfAbbadon
03-08-2007, 18:02
I would say that the Eldar have more of a right to a repressed gene for killing Necrons than the Krorks(Orks).

Despite the fact that the Eldar were made before the Necrontyr became a significant threat?

Besides, the Eldar had some special weapons for killing C'tan, they were called the Talismans of Vaul.

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 18:11
Despite the fact that the Eldar were made before the Necrontyr became a significant threat?

Besides, the Eldar had some special weapons for killing C'tan, they were called the Talismans of Vaul.

Well, I would say they have tomes that were long forgotten since the Necrons disappearance and they are being uncovered with information on the Necrons like for example, " All Necrons have a weakpoint if you break a Necrons spine it can't regenerate." Just an example, not sure if it's true.

CELS
03-08-2007, 19:12
Since when do Eldar have genetic memory? :wtf:

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 19:44
Since when do Eldar have genetic memory? :wtf:

What I'm trying to say is that Eldar have more of a right to knowledge of the Necrons than Orks in my opinion and that you can say they have found forgotten tomes rather than them using genetic memory.

Ktotwf
03-08-2007, 19:55
This idea is really awesome...if just for an excuse to have two races have something going on that doesn't revolve around the Imperium.

jfrazell
03-08-2007, 20:04
Well I always said it would be the green tide that ends up saving the galaxy.

Libertie! Egalite! Fraternitie! WAAAUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
(sorry)

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 20:13
Well I always said it would be the green tide that ends up saving the galaxy.

Libertie! Egalite! Fraternitie! WAAAUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
(sorry)

Who said that the Orks would end up saving the galaxy. No one can stop the harvest. Bow down to you Necron overlords.

Dalenator
03-08-2007, 20:19
Love it, Gives the Orks a sense of purpose other than just WAAAARRRGGGHHHHH (Which is purpose enough).

Dey get bak up, see. So we can ave a'nuver go WWWAAARRRGGGHHHH

CELS
03-08-2007, 20:20
What I'm trying to say is that Eldar have more of a right to knowledge of the Necrons than Orks in my opinion and that you can say they have found forgotten tomes rather than them using genetic memory.
Ah, well, finding forgotten data (in tomes or otherwise ;) ) would be acceptable, I suppose. Although unlike the orks, the Eldar could possibly just have maintained all their knowledge of fighting Necrons since the good old days. The orks don't normally maintain libraries for very long. Come to think of it, they probably wouldn't build one to begin with :p

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 20:23
Ah, well, finding forgotten data (in tomes or otherwise ;) ) would be acceptable, I suppose. Although unlike the orks, the Eldar could possibly just have maintained all their knowledge of fighting Necrons since the good old days. The orks don't normally maintain libraries for very long. Come to think of it, they probably wouldn't build one to begin with :p

I agree orks don't seem like the inteligent type :D

nurgle_boy
03-08-2007, 20:25
Any race could get ahold of thios eldar 'forgotten data'. orks, on the other hand, have it pre-built (or so we are assuming). I would imagine there is a gene in al orks, similar to that of the mek gene, dok gene etc, which would react, and begin to take precidence in orks who come into contact with necrons, or necrontyr technology. The pillars on Cadia resonate with a similar effect to a gellar field (note similar), and this could affect the ork genome, or mentality in some way. Living metal must resonate to a degree (being able to shift and change, the atoms must be moving quickly, and i beleive this is what resonence is (correct me if I am wrong, however)), and this could affect orks, although maybe only the Necrodermis of the ctan does this.
as for game-wise, I cant see it being included. it is something minor. It might just inhance the ork latent phychic ability (well, yes Mr nightbringer, I can Hurt you, no Mr Nightbringer, your sythe cannot hurt me!).

GW should however, still bring back the shokk attack gun.

Mechanicus
03-08-2007, 20:37
What I'm trying to say is that Eldar have more of a right to knowledge of the Necrons than Orks in my opinion and that you can say they have found forgotten tomes rather than them using genetic memory. The Eldar are one of the few races with direct records of the Necrons. The Hrud have information through their 'mass-memory', or whatever it is, the Eldar have their mythological cycles, the Orks have their legends about Gork and Mork (less reliable than the others, given the nature of Orks, and their general disregard for the past), and the Rashan, K'nib and Jokaero may have their own ways of knowledge of the War in Heaven, but all were around, and it was long enough of a conflict to have gained some knowledge of them.

The Eldar are possibly the Old Ones' favourites, or perhaps they've just had the spotlight in the War in Heaven as we know it, but they would have a lot of knowledge because they were one of the first races made during the War. Doesn't mean that others had none, but they might have had less. The Eldar Gods, if Liber Slaanesh and Xenology are to be believed, were warp entities fighting for the Old Ones' and the Young Races as a whole, so the Talismans of Vaul would not technically be the Eldar's, but the Young Races' as a whole. ;)

I like the idea of the Brain Boyz (probably either one of the Old One Races, or the original krork who engineered the rest) programming in ideas, knowledge and technology once the Necrons' showed themselves. I'm reminded of GorkaMorka, where the Orks encountered a Necron Tomb, and after they were attacked by the Necrons, they named the Pyramids "Morgarg-durlurk-gulskar-dregsnikslag" - fortress of ancient, terrifying power, land of waiting death, pain and destruction. It's a name of 'utter dread amongst a race who fear virtually nothing'. Perhaps it's a sort of "stay 'way 'til you've got da toolz for da job", since orks take a while from spore to Ork. Still, Orks occasionally go back there - maybe the beginnings of the gene taking root in the Ork population as the exposure to Necrons increases?

Eventually, using this theory, they will have got the knowledge and equipment which will be effective against the Necrons, and then it'll be interesting!

RevenantX
03-08-2007, 20:43
The one question I have is, what is this 'plague' the Deceiver speaks of in the fluff text of the Necron Codex? He mentions that it cannot harm them, but was killing everything else which I took to mean either Chaos or Tyranids.

Since the Necron are not composed of (for the most part) bio-mass, they are machines, the Tyranids can do little but break them apart but gain no real purpose from doing so; it seems to be against thier better interests. That being said, the Tyranids are a recent problem in the known galaxy, so this is least likely.

However, it seems that the Necrons have no presense in the warp the way other living creatures do, so they seem largely immune to many of the negative effects the warp, and daemons, have on other living creatures.

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 20:43
The Eldar are one of the few races with direct records of the Necrons. The Hrud have information through their 'mass-memory', or whatever it is, the Eldar have their mythological cycles, the Orks have their legends about Gork and Mork (less reliable than the others, given the nature of Orks, and their general disregard for the past), and the Rashan, K'nib and Jokaero may have their own ways of knowledge of the War in Heaven, but all were around, and it was long enough of a conflict to have gained some knowledge of them.

The Eldar are possibly the Old Ones' favourites, or perhaps they've just had the spotlight in the War in Heaven as we know it, but they would have a lot of knowledge because they were one of the first races made during the War. Doesn't mean that others had none, but they might have had less. The Eldar Gods, if Liber Slaanesh and Xenology are to be believed, were warp entities fighting for the Old Ones' and the Young Races as a whole, so the Talismans of Vaul would not technically be the Eldar's, but the Young Races' as a whole. ;)

I like the idea of the Brain Boyz (probably either one of the Old One Races, or the original krork who engineered the rest) programming in ideas, knowledge and technology once the Necrons' showed themselves. I'm reminded of GorkaMorka, where the Orks encountered a Necron Tomb, and after they were attacked by the Necrons, they named the Pyramids "Morgarg-durlurk-gulskar-dregsnikslag" - fortress of ancient, terrifying power, land of waiting death, pain and destruction. It's a name of 'utter dread amongst a race who fear virtually nothing'. Perhaps it's a sort of "stay 'way 'til you've got da toolz for da job", since orks take a while from spore to Ork. Still, Orks occasionally go back there - maybe the beginnings of the gene taking root in the Ork population as the exposure to Necrons increases?

Exactly, that is why I think the Eldar have more of a right to inside knowledge about the Necrons than the other races because they are continuing the war in heaven.

Arcanus
03-08-2007, 20:45
The one question I have is, what is this 'plague' the Deceiver speaks of in the fluff text of the Necron Codex? He mentions that it cannot harm them, but was killing everything else which I took to mean either Chaos or Tyranids.

Since the Necron are not composed of (for the most part) bio-mass, they are machines, the Tyranids can do little but break them apart but gain no real purpose from doing so; it seems to be against thier better interests. That being said, the Tyranids are a recent problem in the known galaxy, so this is least likely.

However, it seems that the Necrons have no presense in the warp the way other living creatures do, so they seem largely immune to many of the negative effects the warp, and daemons, have on other living creatures.

I think they were waiting for the plague to finish off all the other races and then harvest the galaxy with minimal resistance.

The_Warsmith
03-08-2007, 20:58
the plaugue were warp creatures called the enslavers, they couldn't kill c'tan but they could kill all their food (old ones, eldar and anything with a psychic presance in the warp)

the orks with a genetic code to kill necrons would be cool it would give their race a bit more purpose in 40k instead of just bashin stuff an goin on waaaghs (not that there's anything wrong with that :D)

jfrazell
03-08-2007, 21:23
Would be perfect actually. Imagine the lead in to the new Ork codex, a council of war of sorts, with genetic memories stirring through one of the empires, the Ork Waugh spirit spreading and transforming. We could be privy to the first days of a great Krusade against the necron menace.

Forget the Heresy. That was a skirmish.
The 13th Crusade, nothing but a squabble.
The Tyranid invasion, a minor scuffle.

The real fight is beginning. The Orks are going to war.

codicium_aeternum
04-08-2007, 04:05
i dunno, i like the orks as half brained dim wits who just like to smash things


Dey get bak up, see. So we can ave a'nuver go WWWAAARRRGGGHHHH

yeah, thats how i want my orks... dum and stupid, and funny as heck...



all this talk of old ones creating the eldar etc... i think i need to read up on my fluff :(

carlisimo
04-08-2007, 05:38
I like this idea. I used to be opposed to making more things C'tan related, but... the Orks could use some purpose and history.

I got into 40k through Gorkamorka. Space Hulk crashes into uninhabitable desert planet, orks create settlements... and that was when GW started dropping hints of the Necron's existence. Gorkamorka is a good example of orks as a weapon against the Necrons, because no other species would thrive on a dead world like that one.

Flatline
04-08-2007, 12:43
i dunno, i like the orks as half brained dim wits who just like to smash things


I never said that the basic Orks would be any different to this, however, one of the most moving bits of Ork fluff I have ever read was about the creation of the first Gargant in the old Titan Legion book. Basically an Ork mek sees a titan and thinks "Kool, gotta build one of those!" As he does word begins to spread and more and more Orks are drawn to work on it. They aren't sure why, it's just the 'right' thing to do. Pretty soon it kicks of a huge Waaaagh!

The Orks in that story weren't consciously deciding to go to war, they were simply following their instincts. Those instincts could be hard coded in their genes or part of the latent psychic link Orks share. Whatever. Seeing an Imperial titan triggered something in that Ork mek which then affected the other Orks around him. I think it is entirely possible that something similar could happen when the Orks encounter the Necrons. Maybe it would be the sighting of one of the C'Tan that is the trigger?

Just a random thought that occurred to me: maybe the Necron gauss weapons are intended to stop orks sporing when they die? It maybe possible that the Orks reproduction system was engineered to allow the race to survive a Necron purging. The gauss weapons could be the Necron's counter to that ability.



Forget the Heresy. That was a skirmish.
The 13th Crusade, nothing but a squabble.
The Tyranid invasion, a minor scuffle.

The real fight is beginning. The Orks are going to war.

Now that's an image to make the rest of the galaxy soil themselves in fear. :)

fracas
04-08-2007, 14:12
this is a great thought, that the genetic memory of orks will activate as the necron awakens

Moriarty
04-08-2007, 20:59
Forget the Heresy. That was a skirmish.
The 13th Crusade, nothing but a squabble.
The Tyranid invasion, a minor scuffle.

The real fight is beginning. The Orks are going to war.


Duly sigged!

mistformsquirrel
04-08-2007, 21:49
I love this idea honestly. It makes great fluff sense, doesn't necessarily alter the orks style, but it gives a sense of purpose to the WAAAGH; which certainly can make individual orks even... well heroic!

<o.O> Interesting possibilities afoot.

colonel c
04-08-2007, 23:12
This is the best theory i have ever heard.

MadDogMike
05-08-2007, 04:51
Just a random thought that occurred to me: maybe the Necron gauss weapons are intended to stop orks sporing when they die? It maybe possible that the Orks reproduction system was engineered to allow the race to survive a Necron purging. The gauss weapons could be the Necron's counter to that ability.

I tend to think the gauss weapons were "standard" Necron weapons given their general usefullness against everything, that and I can't see the Necrons retooling their entire army to use a weapon solely because it works against just one of their foes. Add in the fact I'm skeptical the Necrons did much R&D at all post-zombification and I suspect gauss weapons were around during the time of the Necrontyr. Also if you accept Dark Crusade as canon when the Necron wipe out the orks on Kronus they have to do it by purging the area systematically.

What I do suspect the Necrons would have done as a bid to wipe out the orks was to target the "Brain Boyz" so the orks would be directionless, but the Brain Boyz figured it out and engineered the orks with the instinctive tech knowledge they needed and the Waaagh instinct so they'd keep fighting the Necrons. Obviously that would make them a risk to everything not just Necrons, but given the time frame of the ork's creation the galaxy was already being swarmed under by the Necrons, Enslavers, and other Warp nastiness. The Brain Boyz might have set the orks up that way as their personal "****** you" to the universe that looked to be killing them and everyone else worth a damn off :D.

Of course, one thing I think they could do with orks that would make them interesting comes from my belief they were made as much against the Warp as the Necrons when the Old Ones created them. Not only are they a horde that's ridiculously hard to kill, their racial psychic link prevents them from the most part falling to Chaos. I'm not entirely sure the weirdboys aren't more concentrations of the ork psychic conglomerate than true psykers; I can't recall any fluff of weirdboys reading minds or otherwise linking to others, just pure projections of power. Would also explain the effects of demon possession if they're just channels for the ork psychic power; the demon isn't just trying to subsume one psyker, it's stuck trying to subsume an entire horde of individuals in effect and no one demon can manage that trick.

Anyway, assuming orks were meant for anti-Chaos work, imagine going with the sudden aggregate response of the orks this thread suggests but making it against Chaos. It could make the 13th Crusade fluff much more interesting if instead of the Imperium just barely holding the line that Abaddon does indeed finally break through, only to suddenly find himself crashing into a horde of orks who even themselves aren't quite sure why they're attacking the "spikey boyz" so hard but feel compelled to do so. Or for added thrills make it an assault on both Chaos and the Necrons, leaving the Imperium terrified of the idea of the kind of Waaagh that would be left if the orks actually managed to beat any of those enemies and turned their attention to the Imperium.

stormblade
05-08-2007, 08:18
I have always felt that orks were somewhat wronged in the early fluff(the war in heaven and that stuff)- because, according to Eldar myths a race that breeds so fast that it can 'infest' whole systems in a short period of time played no vital role at all in fighting the C'tan and Eldar did all the work.

Sounds a bit unprobable to me.

The_Warsmith
05-08-2007, 08:36
yes eldar did all the work but if your a dying race thats got one last ditch attempt to stop the necrons your not going to make something as complex as another eldar race your going to engineer something simplar that just automaticly know necrons=bad

Unclejo
05-08-2007, 09:32
Perhaps the Eldar legends are just that, and the Orks were quite highly involved in the War in Heaven. Arrogant cultures don't normally sing the virtues of the Barbarians, even when the Barbarians are in some cases better than them.

And I really like this idea, we know that Orks were designed with instinctive memory and skills. This must have been done for some purpose, and destroying theyre creators enemies seems to be a damn good one.

Flatline
05-08-2007, 11:37
Perhaps the Eldar legends are just that, and the Orks were quite highly involved in the War in Heaven. Arrogant cultures don't normally sing the virtues of the Barbarians, even when the Barbarians are in some cases better than them.


Very true. Most of what we 'know' about the Romans and their enemies was written by the Romans. Where we have other sources, such as the Greeks and the Persians, we get a very different picture.

The Orks don't keep records as such, so their part in the War in Heaven may well have been edited out or ignored by the Eldar. Heck they could have even claimed Ork victories as their own. ;)

I really hope that GW do something with this potential background. It adds depth to the Ork race and gives them a definite place in the 40k back history.

El_Machinae
05-08-2007, 20:58
The "anti-Necron" gene would have been selected against, because it was probably too specific and so any mutations which removed/modified it would have been an advantage to Orks in a unNecronised galaxy.

Of course, there would still be some throwbacks who hadn't lost the genes. So, those pockets could see a resurgence in numbers as the gene kicks into the new Necron threat.

It's a neat idea.

Madnus
06-08-2007, 11:17
Any race could get ahold of thios eldar 'forgotten data'. orks, on the other hand, have it pre-built (or so we are assuming). I would imagine there is a gene in al orks, similar to that of the mek gene, dok gene etc, which would react, and begin to take precidence in orks who come into contact with necrons, or necrontyr technology. The pillars on Cadia resonate with a similar effect to a gellar field (note similar), and this could affect the ork genome, or mentality in some way. Living metal must resonate to a degree (being able to shift and change, the atoms must be moving quickly, and i beleive this is what resonence is (correct me if I am wrong, however)), and this could affect orks, although maybe only the Necrodermis of the ctan does this.
as for game-wise, I cant see it being included. it is something minor. It might just inhance the ork latent phychic ability (well, yes Mr nightbringer, I can Hurt you, no Mr Nightbringer, your sythe cannot hurt me!).

GW should however, still bring back the shokk attack gun.

They are!! part of the new Ork releases in January 2008. (the shokk attack gun that is).

jfrazell
06-08-2007, 12:53
I tend to think the gauss weapons were "standard" Necron weapons given their general usefullness against everything, that and I can't see the Necrons retooling their entire army to use a weapon solely because it works against just one of their foes. Add in the fact I'm skeptical the Necrons did much R&D at all post-zombification and I suspect gauss weapons were around during the time of the Necrontyr. Also if you accept Dark Crusade as canon when the Necron wipe out the orks on Kronus they have to do it by purging the area systematically.

What I do suspect the Necrons would have done as a bid to wipe out the orks was to target the "Brain Boyz" so the orks would be directionless, but the Brain Boyz figured it out and engineered the orks with the instinctive tech knowledge they needed and the Waaagh instinct so they'd keep fighting the Necrons. Obviously that would make them a risk to everything not just Necrons, but given the time frame of the ork's creation the galaxy was already being swarmed under by the Necrons, Enslavers, and other Warp nastiness. The Brain Boyz might have set the orks up that way as their personal "****** you" to the universe that looked to be killing them and everyone else worth a damn off :D.

Of course, one thing I think they could do with orks that would make them interesting comes from my belief they were made as much against the Warp as the Necrons when the Old Ones created them. Not only are they a horde that's ridiculously hard to kill, their racial psychic link prevents them from the most part falling to Chaos. I'm not entirely sure the weirdboys aren't more concentrations of the ork psychic conglomerate than true psykers; I can't recall any fluff of weirdboys reading minds or otherwise linking to others, just pure projections of power. Would also explain the effects of demon possession if they're just channels for the ork psychic power; the demon isn't just trying to subsume one psyker, it's stuck trying to subsume an entire horde of individuals in effect and no one demon can manage that trick.

Anyway, assuming orks were meant for anti-Chaos work, imagine going with the sudden aggregate response of the orks this thread suggests but making it against Chaos. It could make the 13th Crusade fluff much more interesting if instead of the Imperium just barely holding the line that Abaddon does indeed finally break through, only to suddenly find himself crashing into a horde of orks who even themselves aren't quite sure why they're attacking the "spikey boyz" so hard but feel compelled to do so. Or for added thrills make it an assault on both Chaos and the Necrons, leaving the Imperium terrified of the idea of the kind of Waaagh that would be left if the orks actually managed to beat any of those enemies and turned their attention to the Imperium.

This is true. per the Necron codex the Orks were made specifically to defend the last forrtresses after the enslavers had spread. They would be particularly adept at fighting chaos as well (mayhaps more so). Chaos Tempts and orkies are without conscious temptation-any impact int eh warp going to Mork and Gork. Demonic/LATD styles are more oriented to wards HTH, making chaos even more of a "dream date" to the average ork.
Which leads us to one conclusion...

ORKS! ORKS! ORKS!