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FatOlaf
04-08-2007, 14:05
If a hero moves from one unit to another where do you measure the move from?
From where the Hero is in the unit or the side of the unit he leaves from?

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2007, 14:18
He leaves from the edge of the unit.
The unit counts as moving though when he leaves/joins.

lparigi34
04-08-2007, 14:20
I measure this movement from unit edge to unit edge, but I cannot be sure.

Also, I try to be reasonable with my opponent, I this movement is less that the characters full move but when the final position is achieved it is more, then I will not move the destination unit (no piggyback riding, eh!)

FatOlaf
04-08-2007, 14:30
The reason I wanted to know for sure was that my Count Olaf was on right hand corner of unit, the unit on the left of this unit was arounf 5 inches away from Olaf's position. However if the measure started from the unit edge, he would only have moved an inch leaving the new unit and him to marck a further 5 inches, can make a big difference...

Atrahasis
04-08-2007, 14:33
The character cannot use the fact that he is joining or leaving a unit to extend his move beyond the distance he could move if simply moving on his own. Taking that into consideration, the actual distance moved is what counts, not the distance between the two units.

FatOlaf
04-08-2007, 15:12
But when you move into a unit, you only need to touch the edge and then you can be moved anywhere in the front rank regardless of your movement left.
So is this not the case when moving out of a unit?

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2007, 15:20
The rulebook says nothing about a character being able to leave a unit from any point.Although he is free to move within the unit along the front rank as he pleases.

FatOlaf
04-08-2007, 15:23
Well they must be able to as they have 360 movement, are you saying they have to move straight out ahead from where they are in the unit only?

RavenBloodwind
04-08-2007, 22:25
If we imagine the character is 'free to move within the unit along the front rank as he pleases' then one could certainly invision him 'freely' moving to the corner of the unit he is in closest to the unit he is seeking to join.

That said, Atrahasis' post is accurate in stating you cannot then exceed the characters maximum movement. If Count Olaf moved 'freely' to the corner of the unit, then moved 1" to join the other unit and then 'freely' to a new position in that unit...he should have his march move docked by the 1" he moved and the unit he's joined would move no further than that maximum distance.

FatOlaf
05-08-2007, 15:02
O right for sure agree with that, thought Atrahasis was tlking about the movement within the unit counting as well?
Great so the only movement that counts then is the distance between the two units and then any subsequent movment, correct?

Masque
05-08-2007, 15:10
BRB, Page 74, Joining and Leaving Units

"The most important thing to remember when a character joins/leaves units as part of his move is that the character cannot use the fact he is joining/leaving units to extend his move beyond the distance he could have moved if he was simply moving on his own."

Atrahasis
05-08-2007, 15:27
O right for sure agree with that, thought Atrahasis was tlking about the movement within the unit counting as well?
Great so the only movement that counts then is the distance between the two units and then any subsequent movment, correct?
The distance moved within the unit does indeed count. It is the most important thing not to allow a character to move further than he would normally be able.

EvC
05-08-2007, 19:45
I looked over these rules for a good couple of minutes the other day but couldn't really see anything specific about leaving a unit. I was in the situation where a character on horse was in a small unit, with 8 troopers arranged next to him in two ranks. There was a larger unit a couple of inches behind that unit and I wanted him to leave the weak unit and join up with the big unit. But simply I couldn't work out how he should leave the unit: move 2" forward so he's clear, turn, move another 1", turn, move 5", turn, move another 1" to join the unit... or does he just turn in the starting unit and move backwards 2" to the new unit?

Festus
05-08-2007, 20:28
Just move him ... he is free to move within units...

*Character passing through! Please make way! Character passing ...* ;)

Festus

W0lf
05-08-2007, 22:23
"The most important thing to remember when a character joins/leaves units as part of his move is that the character cannot use the fact he is joining/leaving units to extend his move beyond the distance he could have moved if he was simply moving on his own."

This quote says that he cannot exceed his maximum normal distance. Thus he cannot shuffle through 4 inches (say corner to corner through 4 men) then move 8 inhes if his move is 8 inches.

FatOlaf
06-08-2007, 12:30
Even though when joining a unit all he has to do is touch say the back rank and he his then thrust to the front rank without any mention of measuring.
I think the rule stated above relates more to keeping a track of how far the character has moved already by himself so as to slow down his new unit when he joins..
As for leaving the unit, seems to pretty split.

WLBjork
06-08-2007, 13:52
Problem is of course that doing that can break the last rule in this section.

An Empire Captain on foot moves 8" to touch the rear rank of a regiment 5 deep of Spearmen.

The initial rules for characters joining units says that the Captain has joined the unit and is now placed on the front rank. in doing this however, he ends up 12" from his starting point.

The question is how far has he moved - 8" (and the movement within a unit "free") or 12" (as you still measure the movement within the unit), and thus breaking the last rule (Characters cannot use the joining/leaving of units to extend their movement)?

I myself come down on the side that movement within a unit is *not* measured. If movement within a unit was measured then the rules on joining a unit would of necessity be different - you wouldn't need to move the character to touch the unit but actually move to the position you want the character to occupy within the unit.

Atrahasis
06-08-2007, 16:08
Except that the rules as they stand allow the character to move through other models, which would normally not be allowed.

The final paragraph is the most important, and tells us to consider the the total distance moved as if the unit joined/left didn't exist.

DeathlessDraich
06-08-2007, 16:44
Here we go again. :D

I didn't want to be involved in this discussion. Maybe I should, but the last time this came up I was clobbered by Righteous Smiting from Warseer's Big 3;).

This question may seem to have a ready answer but it really needs to be FAQed.

Atrahasis
06-08-2007, 16:53
This question may seem to have a ready answer but it really needs to be FAQed.It really doesn't. To move the character "for free" within the unit ignores a rule (the most important one in this context), while counting that movement does not.

Unless you're suggesting we need an FAQ to tell us that all the rules apply, and not just some of them?

WLBjork
07-08-2007, 08:25
Whichever way you do it you break a rules paragraph.

Up to you which one it it.

Fredmans
07-08-2007, 11:33
So, if I build two wide lines of inexpensive troops (for instance, gobbos) and place my orc warboss on a boar I can careen all the way back and forth over the battlefield using my two infantry units as a road, making it faster to shuffle my way through troops trying to walk in formation than to move on your own, unhindered by terrain?:wtf:

Heck, I don't need goblins. I can place two units of Eternal Guards in single ranks and race my Elven Steed through them.

I think the "most important" rule logically take precedence over any other rule. Clearly, it ranks alongside the importance of having fun ;)

Edit: remembering the rules a bit better.

/Fredmans

WLBjork
07-08-2007, 12:15
Not exactly... you can't join and leave the same unit on the same turn after all ;)

Highborn
07-08-2007, 13:15
So, if march blocked, a dwarf lord wouldn't be able to make it from one side of his own unit to the other *laughs*

I think the movement is so that the said Empire Captain doesn't move 8" to join the new unit, then have his new unit move 8" so that he moves 16" in one turn (20" including the depth of the unit, of which he is now at the front).

FatOlaf
07-08-2007, 13:35
So, if march blocked, a dwarf lord wouldn't be able to make it from one side of his own unit to the other *laughs*

Except they dont get march blocked do they?


I think the movement is so that the said Empire Captain doesn't move 8" to join the new unit, then have his new unit move 8" so that he moves 16" in one turn (20" including the depth of the unit, of which he is now at the front).


That is excactly what I think the rule is meant to stop, the movement within the unit is free as stated.
The only time this is going to be a problem is when players like the poster above uses his giant goblin lines etc...

Masque
07-08-2007, 14:34
That is excactly what I think the rule is meant to stop, the movement within the unit is free as stated.
The only time this is going to be a problem is when players like the poster above uses his giant goblin lines etc...

I don't see anywhere that a character's movement within a unit is said to be 'free'. Without such a rule I don't see why anyone thinks characters are allowed to break the general rule preventing models from moving farther than their movement allowance (doubled when marching, charging, etc., of course). This is especially driven home by the 'most important thing' about characters joining units.

Major Defense
07-08-2007, 21:48
I don't see anywhere that a character's movement within a unit is said to be 'free'. Without such a rule I don't see why anyone thinks characters are allowed to break the general rule preventing models from moving farther than their movement allowance (doubled when marching, charging, etc., of course). This is especially driven home by the 'most important thing' about characters joining units.

This.

I don't recall any rule in FB that ever allowed a model to move further than its movement characteristic allows (doubled marching given, smartass). The fact that they were in a unit at the beginning of the movement phase has absolutely no bearing on this fact. Measuring from the corner of the unit doesn't make any sense unless that is where the character already was at.

Wow, I sure don't miss these fora full of illogical arguments and self-serving rule interpretations. I just came back to check on the HE book rumors. Should have stopped there.

DaBrode
08-08-2007, 03:11
This.

I don't recall any rule in FB that ever allowed a model to move further than its movement characteristic allows (doubled marching given, smartass). The fact that they were in a unit at the beginning of the movement phase has absolutely no bearing on this fact. Measuring from the corner of the unit doesn't make any sense unless that is where the character already was at.

Wow, I sure don't miss these fora full of illogical arguments and self-serving rule interpretations. I just came back to check on the HE book rumors. Should have stopped there.

This really hasn't been a self-serving rules interpretation thread at all. The posts here are mostly valid and show a clash inthe rules in my opinion.

My question is this...

Forget the leaving/joining units portion...Can a character freely shift himself into a new position in the unit? Meaning it doesn't count towards movement or reforming and doesn't hinder the Unit's further move.

If they can do this (please provide a page#) then I see no reason why you can't freely shift in order to leave and join another unit.

speedygogo
08-08-2007, 03:24
When at any time can a character be a the back of a unit unless he refuses a challege. The rules say that the character issuppose to be in the front rank and that equates to a free move through a unit. So the rule sucks, deal with it. The are a whole slew of rules that don't make sense but are still part of the game. Until GW makes a difinitive FAQ on the matter a player cannot selectively apply rules. All a character needs to join a unit is to touch it. The can move freely through a unit in the movement phase and cannot move more that their movement rate to go from unit to unit. The only army that has a specific "characters can be in the back" rule in the skaven.

Masque
08-08-2007, 07:18
Forget the leaving/joining units portion...Can a character freely shift himself into a new position in the unit? Meaning it doesn't count towards movement or reforming and doesn't hinder the Unit's further move.

If they can do this (please provide a page#) then I see no reason why you can't freely shift in order to leave and join another unit.

BRB, Page 74, Characters Moving With Units
"...a character is free to change position in the front rank of the unit..."

This means a character is allowed to change position not that he can change position without cost.

WLBjork
08-08-2007, 08:15
Lets get back to basics.

(1) When a character joins a unit he only has to move to touch the unit.

(2) When a character joins a unit he is placed in the front rank.

Nowhere does it tell us that to join a unit a character has to move to that position in the unit.

DaBrode
08-08-2007, 08:24
Lets get back to basics.

(1) When a character joins a unit he only has to move to touch the unit.

(2) When a character joins a unit he is placed in the front rank.

Nowhere does it tell us that to join a unit a character has to move to that position in the unit.

I have to be honest...I'm leaning towards this as the solution. The only time I know of when a model is individually measured for movement distance when they are part of a unit (rather than measuring the unit as a whole) is when using skirmishers.

Measuring movement while part of a unit and moving within it seems hokey to me even though it may be taken advantage of in some circles.

Masque
08-08-2007, 08:37
Nowhere does it tell us that to join a unit a character has to move to that position in the unit.

I agree it does not specifically state this, but it doesn't need to as the 'most important thing' rule covers any and all cases. A character who would otherwise break the 'most important thing' rule to join a unit is simply not allowed to join that unit.


I have to be honest...I'm leaning towards this as the solution. The only time I know of when a model is individually measured for movement distance when they are part of a unit (rather than measuring the unit as a whole) is when using skirmishers.

Measuring movement while part of a unit and moving within it seems hokey to me even though it may be taken advantage of in some circles.

Wheeling is a prime example of where an individual model's movement is important even when that model is part of a larger unit. The other common case is during a reform.

DeathlessDraich
08-08-2007, 09:57
It really doesn't. To move the character "for free" within the unit ignores a rule (the most important one in this context), while counting that movement does not.

Unless you're suggesting we need an FAQ to tell us that all the rules apply, and not just some of them?

It does since it begs the question:
What is movement in Warhammer?

I asked this question (what is warhammer movement) in a thread and judging by the answers given (including yours :p), players have unknowingly agreed that the "most important" statement made is questionable.


I agree it does not specifically state this, but it doesn't need to as the 'most important thing' rule covers any and all cases.

The 'most important thing' rule unfortunately is inconsistent and at variance with 3 other rules/circumstance plus the other sections of characters joining units.
Therefore confining it to within the context it is made might be necessary.

DaBrode
08-08-2007, 10:43
The 'most important thing' rule unfortunately is inconsistent and at variance with 3 other rules/circumstance plus the other sections of characters joining units.
Therefore confining it to within the context it is made might be necessary.


Seconded. :p

FatOlaf
08-08-2007, 12:32
Seconded. :p


Thirded.......... I think ;)

So it seems the 'most important rule' is at odds. If a character marches 8" and hits the back of a 5 by 5 unit, are some of you out there saying that he can not then move to the front of the unit even thought the rule says he can, because it will take him over his movement allowance.
This surely shows a direct contradiction in two rules.

Secondly I want to go back to one of my main questions, that of when leaving a unit, can the character leave from any side and start to measure from that side of the unit?

Masque
08-08-2007, 14:55
The 'most important thing' rule unfortunately is inconsistent and at variance with 3 other rules/circumstance plus the other sections of characters joining units.
Therefore confining it to within the context it is made might be necessary.


Seconded. :p


Thirded.......... I think ;)

If the 'most important thing' rule does not prevent a character from getting bonus movement when joining or leaving a unit why does it exist at all? I assume you think it is used in some case and not simply ignored all the time?

Oh, and DD, what exactly do you think is 'the context it is made'?


So it seems the 'most important rule' is at odds. If a character marches 8" and hits the back of a 5 by 5 unit, are some of you out there saying that he can not then move to the front of the unit even thought the rule says he can, because it will take him over his movement allowance.
This surely shows a direct contradiction in two rules.

I am saying that he can't join the unit at all. See post #33.

explorator
08-08-2007, 16:08
The only army that has a specific "characters can be in the back" rule in the skaven.

And Bretonnian Damsel/Prophetess in a small unit of knights.

The unit that has been joined by a character is limited to the remaining movement of the character.

Pictures in my head of my Necromancer 'body-surfing' through a unit of zombies, like he was at a rock show.:D

Atrahasis
08-08-2007, 16:08
"Moving freely" and "moving for free" are entirely different animals - to poach analogies from the software world, one is free as in beer, the other as in speech.

The most important rule does not in any way contradict the earlier rules in that section, and even if it did, it is more important than they are.

DeathlessDraich
08-08-2007, 20:33
Oh, and DD, what exactly do you think is 'the context it is made'?


No, sorry I've said more than I wanted to on the subject. I debated this at length with Atrahasis, T10 and Festus (who still laughs when I mention it :p).

I'll leave you to work out why I think the aforementioned statement is inadequate using the following references:

pg 72 2nd column last 2 lines
pg 73, first line
pg 74 1st column 2nd para - the phrase "as part of his movement"
pg 74 1st column 3rd para, 4th statement
pg 74 1st column 4th para, 2nd statement
pg 77 1st column 7th para

Reconcile these statements with the question
'What constitutes movement in Warhammer'?

Good luck!:D while I exit stage left.

DaBrode
08-08-2007, 23:23
If the 'most important thing' rule does not prevent a character from getting bonus movement when joining or leaving a unit why does it exist at all? I assume you think it is used in some case and not simply ignored all the time?

It applies when a character leaves Unit A moves 6 inches to join Unit B and then Unit B moves it's full march move of 8".

Your character has just moved 14" when his normal march move is 8".

This is not permitted.

Atrahasis
09-08-2007, 09:54
It also applies when your character moves 7" and the front rank of the unit he is attempting to join is 2" away. The character has just moved 9" when his normal march move is 8".

This is not permitted.

N1AK
09-08-2007, 10:02
I think Atrahasis is interpreting correctly, although the two rules contradict, one of them is stated as being "most important" thus if you have to break one, you do not break the "most important".

However I have always treated movement within a unit as though its free, thus I move to the side of the unit 2", I would then allow the unit to move 2" less than normal. This is also how everyone I have ever played has treated it. I've never seen it abused, although if I did I might refer them to the rules.
For this reason I will keep playing it wrongly unless my opponent requests otherwise.

DaBrode
10-08-2007, 02:11
It also applies when your character moves 7" and the front rank of the unit he is attempting to join is 2" away. The character has just moved 9" when his normal march move is 8".

This is not permitted.


Ah yes, well, that's the debate now isn't it?

Masque
10-08-2007, 08:25
Ah yes, well, that's the debate now isn't it?

I really don't see how there can be much of a debate. Almost everyone who disagrees with Atrahasis and I says that there are rules that conflict. How is it that when rules conflict and one is specifically noted to be 'most important' that that rule does not overrule the others?

FatOlaf
10-08-2007, 12:42
I really don't see how there can be much of a debate. Almost everyone who disagrees with Atrahasis and I says that there are rules that conflict. How is it that when rules conflict and one is specifically noted to be 'most important' that that rule does not overrule the others?


Because it's not in context and nonsense, sorry my human hero marches 8" ands hits the back of a unit, he can then move to the front for free as the rules state, he is not going to stay at the back rank, this does not make sense. The 'most important' rule is there but for other reasons and situations, when a conflict arises, common sense has to prevail the highest....

However I still wanna know people's opinions on 'can a hero move out of any side of the unit?'

N1AK
10-08-2007, 13:10
Olaf: You can play it however you want (opponent permitting) but it makes perfect sense. Your character can only move 8" if he is on his own running down a road, why does it 'make sense' that he can suddenly move 10+" if he does some of it making his way through a unit.
Again I say that as someone who plays it the same way you do, but I don't delude myself thinking it's because my way makes more sense.

- - -
Again technically no, simply on the basis that the rules don't say you can (you can't move 'through' your own unit). By the rules you should leave the unit from where the character is, or reposition him in the front rank (at the cost of that distance) and move out from there.
Again I play this 'wrong' in that I would allow (and myself would) move my character from where he leaves the unit, because this is how I have always seen it played and think its fine.

Atrahasis
10-08-2007, 13:33
he can then move to the front for free as the rules stateThe rules do not say anywhere at all that he moves for free.

That is a fiction maintained in order to justify an incorrect application of the rules.

DeathlessDraich
11-08-2007, 09:34
You've tempted me back. :p. The asterisks are necessary to ease reading.
If you do wish to comment please read the whole post and ignore typos :)

1) The rules *do* allow any model and hence characters to move more than their movement allowance. This specific aspect has been debated before and some opinions view this as an oversight or a loophole in the rules, while others accept it unreservedly.
The fact remains that models can move more than their movement allowance. There are 5 circumstances (6 if this one is included) which allow this, one is heavily debated while the others are indisputably correct.
a) Wheeling of a long unit - e.g. lance formation
b) Free manoeuvres, champion/command group - flanked line of archers 25,30 models wide
c) Moving unengaged characters in a unit, already engaged in combat, into combat - same as above
d) Moving models in challenges to face each other - as above
e) Change formation.

Only (a) has been heavily debated, the rest are absolutely correct in allowing a character/model to move *more* than its movement allowance -unlikely in most circumstance but still possible.

This then begs the question I've asked on numerous occasions - see below**


2) 'The most important thing' :
This must be read in context. The full sentence at least and not just the first section:
"The most important etc , when a character joins or leaves a unit *as part of his movement* etc beyond the distance he would have *moved* if he was on his own."

Let me reiterate that - *as part of his movement*. The so called 'most important thing' is *only* applicable when a character is *actually moving* from one unit to another.

It is applicable *only* to the act of joining or leaving units and any movement made in doing so.

It cannot be applicable to (a) - (e) above which includes moving characters *through* a unit and does not involve characters leaving or joining units.

3) Joining a unit:
pg 72 clearly stipulates the rules for successfully joining (N.B. not leaving) units:

"To join a unit etc, a character has *only* to move so that he is touching it"

i.e. the character has successfully joined the unit when he touches it.

followed by,
"the model is *automatically* placed in the front rank..

*Automatically placed* and not moved!
A character has not *moved* when he is 'automatically placed'. The word move or movement is absent from the rule governing characters being re-positioned to the front. He therefore has not 'moved' in the Warhammer sense of the term.

This is another vital rule for characters joining units.
There is *no movement* but a 're-positioning' of the character from wherever he is to the front, after successfully joining the unit.

This will be consistent with other rules governing circumstance (a)-(e)

4)**The question is still "What is movement in Warhammer?" Using real life as a guide does not help
Placing an arrow in a bow is movement in real life but is not movement in Warhammer.
Characters, command groups, champions which are re-positioned from one part of a unit to another is also not movement. The rules for (a) -(e) indicate this and the rule on pg73/74 confirms this.

5) Summary:
When a character leaves and joins a unit, he uses his movement allowance when:
a) Leaving the unit
b) Moving from one unit to another

but not when he is re-positioned to the front rank of the unit he joins.

With Skaven, this problem never arises.

6) Addendum:
The rules must be applied consistently throughout and *all* rules must be taken into account.
Until an FAQ is produced on this matter (and you may differ in opinion Atrahasis, but an FAQ is needed), my interpretation is consistent.

WLBjork
11-08-2007, 10:30
5) Summary:
When a character leaves and joins a unit, he uses his movement allowance when:
a) Leaving the unit
b) Moving from one unit to another

but not when he is re-positioned to the front rank of the unit he joins.

I would add:

c)Any movement by a unit the character is a part of at the time the movement is made.

FatOlaf
11-08-2007, 12:29
Well Put Deathless Draich! All I can say.........

Atrahasis
11-08-2007, 12:41
"To join a unit etc, a character has *only* to move so that he is touching it"

i.e. the character has successfully joined the unit when he touches it."has only to move" here means that no special action is required to join a unit (eg no test of any kind is required).


followed by,
"the model is *automatically* placed in the front rank..

*Automatically placed* and not moved!Placing a model is moving it. There is no support in the rulebook for the opinion that moving a model doesn't count as movement just because a different verb is used.


A character has not *moved* when he is 'automatically placed'.Saying it does not make it so. "Automatically@ does not mean for free, and placement requires the model to be moved. We expressly and specifically cannot move the model further than he would if moving on his own - this erroneous free placement would allow that and so cannot be legal.

EvC
11-08-2007, 14:39
Prepare for the usual counter argument of "there's no way we can know if placing a unit counts as movement, so we can't ever know" coupled with ridiculous non sequitur counterexamples...

Krankenstein
11-08-2007, 21:47
So, is there anybody out there who actually measures characters movement within units (as in ”Well, I moved my BSB in the front rank, so the unit as a whole can only march 6”)?

Personally I count front rank reshuffles and characters obligatory move to the front rank as free. Or abstracted if you will. Because if it isn’t abstracted and free, there ought to be some sort of mention of how it’s supposed to work it in the rulebook.

As to the “most important thing”, I would suggest only using it to counter extreme abuse. In most cases the rule that you can’t join and leave the same unit in a single turn ought to do the trick.

Atrahasis
11-08-2007, 21:59
Unless the unit is extremely wide, the total distance added for a character moving in the front rank is going to be a tiny fraction of an inch anyway, and so it would be unnecessarily fiddly to apply the rule strictly in that case.

However, when joining and leaving units, the depth of the unit also comes into play, and a unit with 5 ranks would add 4+ inches to a character's move if he joins/leaves from the rear. That amount is not negligible.

Krankenstein
12-08-2007, 08:10
Unless the unit is extremely wide, the total distance added for a character moving in the front rank is going to be a tiny fraction of an inch anyway, and so it would be unnecessarily fiddly to apply the rule strictly in that case.


In some cases. But not in my example: if you move your BSB around the front rank to cover another unit with the BSB break reroll, obviously the move is measurable, otherwise you won’t do it.

As to the argument that a character cannot join a unit at all if he does not have the remaining movement to make it all the way to the front rank, I can certainly see the semantic logic of it all.

Still, I would feel a whole lot better if Games Workshop had actually written that, if that was their intention. A single line would have done it, and yet they didn’t, even though they skirt around the subject quite a lot on page 73 and 74.

Atrahasis
12-08-2007, 10:22
In some cases. But not in my example: if you move your BSB around the front rank to cover another unit with the BSB break reroll, obviously the move is measurable, otherwise you won’t do it.
Yes, the lateral movement is measurable.

However, the added distance is in all probability negligible. If the unit itself has not moved, then the BSB's movement will only exceed his maximum allowed movement if the unit is very wide. If the unit has moved, then the total distance moved by the character is not

Unit Movement + Movement across ranks

but

SQRT(U^2 + R^2)

That is, the distance moved is the length of the hypotenuse of the right-angled triangle with sides equal to unit movement and movement across the ranks. This reduces the "movement across the ranks" component to an amount that is reasonable to ignore in "normal" units which are 5 or 6 models wide.

Krankenstein
12-08-2007, 14:30
SQRT(U^2 + R^2)


Somehow I doubt that Warhammer is meant to be played with that kind of formula in mind. Normally when you when you move something in warhammer it’s how you actually move that you have to measure, and I think that most people would do the BSB shuffle like this:

“I move my unit. I move my BSB to the right.”

Rather than:

“I move my unit. At the same time my BSB phase trough the front rank along the hypotenuse.”


And anyway, saying that this is not a problem in units less than 6 models wide is kind of unhelpful. Skirmishers screens and missile troops are often much wider.


I’d still put my faith in the “can’t leave and join a unit at the same turn” rule, and deal with any extreme abuse in a social context.

Atrahasis
12-08-2007, 14:37
Double post :(

Atrahasis
12-08-2007, 14:38
Somehow I doubt that Warhammer is meant to be played with that kind of formula in mind.I wasn't suggesting it should be, and there's absolutely no need to know that that formula describes the movement since we have the advantage of actually being able to measure the distance moved without resorting to calculation.


And anyway, saying that this is not a problem in units less than 6 models wide is kind of unhelpful.


Skirmishers screens and missile troops are often much wider.Skirmishers don't have ranks, so movement through the ranks cannot, by definition, be a problem.

Missile troops are an unusual case as far as character movement is concerned, and those that are ranked are unlikely to move (or at least unlikely to march) anyway.



I’d still put my faith in the “can’t leave and join a unit at the same turn” rule, and deal with any extreme abuse in a social context.And I'm being unhelpful?

"I'll just fudge it" is somehow more helpful than an explanation of the problems involved?

EvC
12-08-2007, 14:45
I guess a defining question would be, if you had a 4" movement unit that is 20 models wide, would it be legal for one character or hero in the unit to move from one corner to the other? I guess not then.

This will actually affect my play a bit, I like using wide Cavalry units and if there's a threat to my flank I commonly move the champion to the flank of the unit to restrict kills. I'll have to remember to factor in that move...

Atrahasis
12-08-2007, 14:57
I guess a defining question would be, if you had a 4" movement unit that is 20 models wide, would it be legal for one character or hero in the unit to move from one corner to the other? I guess not then.Depends what the character's movement is ;)

Though of course, in your example it would need to be a Jaguar-lizard, a wolf-vampire, an elven/goblin mounted character, or a flyer to be capable.

Krankenstein
12-08-2007, 18:42
And I'm being unhelpful?

"I'll just fudge it" is somehow more helpful than an explanation of the problems involved?

My post was not about you. It was about warhammer. As to fudging, you may not like it. But Games Workshop does.

Regarding your “explanation of the problems involved” it’s less of an explanation and more of and oversold interpretation.

To repeat: Games Workshop does not write that you have to measure character movement within a unit, though they go trough detail about moving characters up to units and positioning characters within units. They could easily have written something else than “the model is automatically placed in the front rank”. They could have written: “if the model do not have the remaining movement to reach the unit’s front rank, he cannot join the unit at all.” They didn’t.

Festus
12-08-2007, 19:26
They could easily have written something else than “the model is automatically placed in the front rank”. They could have written: “if the model do not have the remaining movement to reach the unit’s front rank, he cannot join the unit at all.” They didn’t.
Well, actually, they really did: There it is explicitly forbidden to prolong the character's move by joining - if he can't do it with his movement, he may not do it at all.
They say so on p.74 of the BRB, left column...

Festus

EvC
12-08-2007, 22:38
Depends what the character's movement is ;)

Well I was assuming 4" all round, but that does highlight yet another advantage of putting a character on a mount, so he can keep up with the unit and nip all around the front rank (Presumably while giving heroic speeches)...

Krankenstein
13-08-2007, 18:41
Well, actually, they really did: There it is explicitly forbidden to prolong the character's move by joining - if he can't do it with his movement, he may not do it at all.
They say so on p.74 of the BRB, left column...

Festus

Again assuming that the “most important thing” section does not address abuse situations only.

On page 72 and 73 they write: “To join a unit of troops, a character has only to move so that he is touching it. Once he is joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in it’s front rank. Note that a character will inevitably use up a portion of his move to reach the unit he is joining. If the unit has not already moved, its further movement is limited to the fraction remaining to the character.”

Note how only the movement used to reach the unit counts to reduce the unit’s further movement.

As I see it this is quite clear language. If they didn’t mean that, they could have written:

“To join a unit of troops, a character has not only to move so that he is touching it, but also reach the front rank, where a character model must always be placed. Note that a character will inevitably use up a portion of his move to reach the front rank of the unit he is joining. If the unit has not already moved, its further movement is limited to the fraction remaining to the character.”

FatOlaf
14-08-2007, 12:43
To repeat: Games Workshop does not write that you have to measure character movement within a unit, though they go trough detail about moving characters up to units and positioning characters within units. They could easily have written something else than “the model is automatically placed in the front rank”. They could have written: “if the model do not have the remaining movement to reach the unit’s front rank, he cannot join the unit at all.” They didn’t.


Again assuming that the “most important thing” section does not address abuse situations only.

On page 72 and 73 they write: “To join a unit of troops, a character has only to move so that he is touching it. Once he is joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in it’s front rank. Note that a character will inevitably use up a portion of his move to reach the unit he is joining. If the unit has not already moved, its further movement is limited to the fraction remaining to the character.”

Note how only the movement used to reach the unit counts to reduce the unit’s further movement.



Quite right, I cant believe certina people are now advocating we must measure the move along the front rank when moving heroes about.
The above statements to me state the case pretty clearly and simply.
EvC if you wanna move your champ to the side, you can do it without measuring, the reason I started this debate was cause I was copying a tactic of yours of moving hero and BSB up the field between units against as gunline and it came up about where to start measuring the hero's move from.
I sort of wish I hadn't asked.........:D

DaBrode
14-08-2007, 22:22
Unless the unit is extremely wide, the total distance added for a character moving in the front rank is going to be a tiny fraction of an inch anyway, and so it would be unnecessarily fiddly to apply the rule strictly in that case.

However, when joining and leaving units, the depth of the unit also comes into play, and a unit with 5 ranks would add 4+ inches to a character's move if he joins/leaves from the rear. That amount is not negligible.

However in the thread I started about measuring from the movement tray versus the models base you mention that small measurements can place people in range of shooting and such that otherwise wouldn't be possible and that was very important to the overall game. Certainly fractions of an inch still apply in this way in your eyes, no?

I have to say DD pretty much summed it up to a logical conclusion without changing words etc.

You on the other hand have changed words in the rules to suit your argument. Placing=moving?

I don't believe that for a second. If I "place" my unit of fast cavalry back on the table edge because they ran off it last turn that does not count for movement at all...in fact, they still get their full movement.

Placing is NOT movement in any way that i can see and DD laid out the specifics in which this game allows a character to move beyond the number under M on his/her profile.

Normally I'm spot on with ya Atrahasis but this one seems to be answered by DD. Well done DD.

DaBrode
14-08-2007, 22:38
This question is directed at Atrahasis and Festus who, I want to be clear, through their answers on these forums have earned my respect as authorities on the game's rules.

In this sentence clipped from the rulebook:

*Once he is joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in it’s front rank.*

Can either of you tell me what the word automatically refers to if it does not mean "without counting further movement"?

I can't see another way of defining that word in that sentence.

Steeve
14-08-2007, 23:56
This question is directed at Atrahasis and Festus who, I want to be clear, through their answers on these forums have earned my respect as authorities on the game's rules.

In this sentence clipped from the rulebook:

*Once he is joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in it’s front rank.*

Can either of you tell me what the word automatically refers to if it does not mean "without counting further movement"?

I can't see another way of defining that word in that sentence.

This begs the question: Then what is the "Most important thing" rule telling us?
If it's not meant to account for the additional distance between the edge of the unit and the characters starting/ending location in that unit, then what?

DaBrode
15-08-2007, 00:50
This begs the question: Then what is the "Most important thing" rule telling us?
If it's not meant to account for the additional distance between the edge of the unit and the characters starting/ending location in that unit, then what?

I don't believe my question begs any other questions actually. I simply want to know what they interpret that word to mean in that sentence.

I think you are assuming and therefore coming up with a conclusion that another question is prompted by mine. Let's have them answer this one first. In the meantime I'll go read up and return to answer your question.

DaBrode
15-08-2007, 01:11
This begs the question: Then what is the "Most important thing" rule telling us?
If it's not meant to account for the additional distance between the edge of the unit and the characters starting/ending location in that unit, then what?


"The most important thing to remember when a character joins/leaves units as part of his move is that the character cannot use the fact he is joining/leaving units to extend his move beyond the distance he could have moved if he was simply moving on his own."

All this is saying (and mind you it's stating this AFTER and AT THE END of the entire rules for Characters moving: Leaving/Joining Units) is that you can't allow a character to benefit from additional movement after his move distance is exhausted. With that said I believe it's referring directly to, not the free or automatic moves a character is permitted, but rather the additional movement a unit may take after a character joins it.

IE. Character leaves a unit to join another 6" away. He has 2" left. The unit he joins cannot march it's full 8" due to the Most Important Thing. That unit is now limited to 2". It refers to this earlier in the same rules set when it states...

"Any movement lost represents time waiting for the character" when talking about the unit's movement after the character joins it.

I'm really pretty anchored in my belief at this point that the rules are fairly concise although they could have been worded a tad better.

Steeve
15-08-2007, 03:02
DaBrode:

Consider the following hypothetical scenario where C is the Character and wishes to join unit Y:

let each character and character space equal one inch.

...XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.. YYYYY
......................................... YYYYY
......................................... YYYYY
CWWW
WWWW

According to your interpretation, C could leave unit W, move two inches to join unit X, then, in the next movement phase, (or maybe the same, depending on your interpretation of BRB pg. 73 para. 4), leave X, and move two more inches to join Y. C effectively moved twenty two inches to join Y where it would have moved at least eight inches it one turn or at most sixteen inches in two and still not have reached unit Y.

Allthough your read of BRB 73 para. 1 is correct in isolation, taken together with the "most important" rule and scenario's like the one above, It appears the need to account for distances inside units was intended.

EDIT:
Please excuse the "." in the example above. the formatting was lost when I viewed it. I'm sure there was a better solution but I was too tired to look for it. :)

DaBrode
15-08-2007, 06:29
DaBrode:

Consider the following hypothetical scenario where C is the Character and wishes to join unit Y:

let each character and character space equal one inch.

...XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.. YYYYY
......................................... YYYYY
......................................... YYYYY
CWWW
WWWW

According to your interpretation, C could leave unit W, move two inches to join unit X, then, in the next movement phase, (or maybe the same, depending on your interpretation of BRB pg. 73 para. 4), leave X, and move two more inches to join Y. C effectively moved twenty two inches to join Y where it would have moved at least eight inches it one turn or at most sixteen inches in two and still not have reached unit Y.

Allthough your read of BRB 73 para. 1 is correct in isolation, taken together with the "most important" rule and scenario's like the one above, It appears the need to account for distances inside units was intended.

EDIT:
Please excuse the "." in the example above. the formatting was lost when I viewed it. I'm sure there was a better solution but I was too tired to look for it. :)

This is repetition Steeve. It's clear why you and others object to the way I'm putting this out there but I think that's an oversight on GW's part and there needs to be a FAQ (as has been stated by DD if I recall).

I just can't see where in the rulebook they ever expected us to measure a character's movement within the front rank. If I shift my general to the far left from the far right of his unit and it's a 2" distance then have I cut the unit's total march move to 6" rather than 8"? I think not. I would think free to move means just that. FREE movement.

GW just never accounted for people taking advantage of the rules in this way. That's my conclusion.

WLBjork
15-08-2007, 07:05
According to your interpretation, C could leave unit W, move two inches to join unit X, then, in the next movement phase, (or maybe the same, depending on your interpretation of BRB pg. 73 para. 4), leave X, and move two more inches to join Y. C effectively moved twenty two inches to join Y where it would have moved at least eight inches it one turn or at most sixteen inches in two and still not have reached unit Y.


Page 73, para 4 is perfectly clear.

A character may not join and leave the same unit in the same turn. No interpretation required.

Bear in mind, we are talking about a game mechanic, which often simplify (and sometimes over-simplify) things.

Krankenstein
15-08-2007, 07:14
This begs the question: Then what is the "Most important thing" rule telling us?


It’s probably telling us that you are not supposed to “misuse” the rules to achieve ridiculous results. It is in a way an extension of “The Most Important Rule” on page 3, and ties in with Games Workshops design philosophy. The philosophy of not tackling the hard questions with precise language and hard thinking, but leaving them to friendly D.I.Y.

Masque
15-08-2007, 08:47
This question is directed at Atrahasis and Festus who, I want to be clear, through their answers on these forums have earned my respect as authorities on the game's rules.

In this sentence clipped from the rulebook:

*Once he is joined the unit, the model is automatically placed in it’s front rank.*

Can either of you tell me what the word automatically refers to if it does not mean "without counting further movement"?

I can't see another way of defining that word in that sentence.

I'll go ahead and answer this. It means you don't have to wait until the unit reforms or you are otherwise allowed to rearrange the unit. Without this sentence the character joining the unit would be prevented from joining the front rank unless the unit was only one rank deep and he contacted an end of the unit. It is both giving you permission to place the character in the front rank and forcing you to do so.


I would think free to move means just that. FREE movement.

'Free to' do something does not mean do something 'for free'. In America we are 'free to' watch whatever movies we like but we can't necessarily watch whatever movies we like 'for free'. Without the sentence stating characters are 'free to' reposition themselves in the front rank of a unit they would be completely unable to do so whether or not there was a movement cost associated with doing so.


According to your interpretation, C could leave unit W, move two inches to join unit X, then, in the next movement phase, (or maybe the same, depending on your interpretation of BRB pg. 73 para. 4), leave X, and move two more inches to join Y. C effectively moved twenty two inches to join Y where it would have moved at least eight inches it one turn or at most sixteen inches in two and still not have reached unit Y.


Page 73, para 4 is perfectly clear.

A character may not join and leave the same unit in the same turn. No interpretation required.

Steeve's example had the character join and leave unit X on two seperate turns.

WLBjork
15-08-2007, 10:39
Check the bit in brackets - I'll quote it specifically for ease:


in the next movement phase, (or maybe the same, depending on your interpretation of BRB pg. 73 para. 4), leave X, and move two more inches to join Y.

Masque
15-08-2007, 10:47
Check the bit in brackets - I'll quote it specifically for ease:

Whoops! Behold the power of not actually reading what people write.

Steeve
15-08-2007, 11:32
It’s probably telling us that you are not supposed to “misuse” the rules to achieve ridiculous results. It is in a way an extension of “The Most Important Rule” on page 3, and ties in with Games Workshops design philosophy. The philosophy of not tackling the hard questions with precise language and hard thinking, but leaving them to friendly D.I.Y.

I must agree here, given the many vagaries in the BRB, it seems clear that Games Workshop wanted the rules to be as clear as possible while still being an easy, fluid read. Granted some things could have been worded better though.

The alternative would be something that reads like one long EULA, that few would read, and ultimately hinder game play.

Steeve
15-08-2007, 11:44
Whoops! Behold the power of not actually reading what people write.

I was tired when I posted that. I probably could have composed that in a more readable way,... Sorry all. :weak smile:

DaBrode
15-08-2007, 20:47
'Free to' do something does not mean do something 'for free'. In America we are 'free to' watch whatever movies we like but we can't necessarily watch whatever movies we like 'for free'. Without the sentence stating characters are 'free to' reposition themselves in the front rank of a unit they would be completely unable to do so whether or not there was a movement cost associated with doing so.

Your definition in your example and in the book assumes a "cost". I am indeed free to see whatever movies I like to see and I'm free to see them when I like and where I want. I freely go to the movies all the time. The fact that I have to pay the person/company showing the movie doesn't enter that equation at all.

The same goes for the character in the front rank. The character is free to move anywhere in the front rank during the movement phase. This does not indicate cost or no cost just that it's free for you to do. This is partly where a FAQ is needed however with DD's examples provided earlier I'm lead to believe it's not at any cost of movement.

Masque
15-08-2007, 23:30
Your definition in your example and in the book assumes a "cost". I am indeed free to see whatever movies I like to see and I'm free to see them when I like and where I want. I freely go to the movies all the time. The fact that I have to pay the person/company showing the movie doesn't enter that equation at all.

Exactly. 'Free to' does not imply or negate any cost. There is normally a cost (of movement allowance) to move models during your movement phase. The rules for repositioning characters makes no mention of alleviating or ignoring the cost so the cost still applies. The rules for joining and leaving units specifically say the cost is not ignored.


The same goes for the character in the front rank. The character is free to move anywhere in the front rank during the movement phase. This does not indicate cost or no cost just that it's free for you to do. This is partly where a FAQ is needed however with DD's examples provided earlier I'm lead to believe it's not at any cost of movement.

You've put the word 'free' together with the word 'for' which does imply without cost. I believe when you said '...just that it's free for you to do' you meant '...just that you are free to do it'.

theunwantedbeing
15-08-2007, 23:54
Page 74.

The character cant use joining/leaving a unit to extend his normal movement rate.
The character can move freely within the unit.

The first part is to imply that the character needs to be able to reach the position with the unit to be able to be placed in that position.
The second part,is to show that he is allowed to change position within the unit and effectively move through friendly units despite nobody else bar fleeing units being allowed to do this.

Nice and simply,clear enough,no need for an FAQ.

Page 74 covers all problems nicely,its only when you forget that there's a page 74 that you start to generate confusion.(or if you just dont use the wording in the book and make it up).

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 14:23
If I "place" my unit of fast cavalry back on the table edge because they ran off it last turn that does not count for movement at all...in fact, they still get their full movement.Placing the models on the table explicitly counts as movement.


Can either of you tell me what the word automatically refers to if it does not mean "without counting further movement"?

I can't see another way of defining that word in that sentence.automatic : occurring independently of volition; involuntary.

It is used as an imperative - the character must move into the front rank. "Automatic" never means "for free".

WLBjork
17-08-2007, 07:48
automatic : occurring independently of volition; involuntary.

Exactly - as a consequence of joining a unit, the character is placed in the front rank.

The only condition on joining a unit is to move so that the character is touching the unit.

Atrahasis
17-08-2007, 11:31
Being compulsory does not make something free.

There is nothing in the rules which removes the cost of movement for a character moving to the front of the unit, and so the standard rules governing movement cost apply.

Krankenstein
17-08-2007, 13:41
Placing the models on the table explicitly counts as movement.

automatic : occurring independently of volition; involuntary.

It is used as an imperative - the character must move into the front rank. "Automatic" never means "for free".

Such certainty.

Still, I doubt that Games Workshop share you vision of a pure rulesset through precise language.

Atrahasis
17-08-2007, 15:53
Still, I doubt that Games Workshop share you vision of a pure rulesset through precise language.GW isn't a monolithic entity with a single vision and aim. There are certainly staff in the design team who have a similar, if not identical, view to mine, while others are more inclined to the "drink beer and roll dice" method.

My approach to rules debate is quite different from my approach to gaming, and the former is based on the premise that the only common ground that two acquaintances in gaming might have is the rulebook they have both bought. Once I've met that comrade-in-dice-rolling we can come to whatever decisions we see fit, but the common ground that we are provided with should make it easy for us to do so by having as little ambiguity as possible.

The Most Important Rule which is so often bandied about by those defending shoddy rules authoring is a laudable and absolutely respectable approach to playing the game but it is a poor shadow of an excuse for sub-par construction of a ruleset.

Krankenstein
17-08-2007, 22:22
Atrahasis, I totally agree with you. But Games Workshop, as a whole, does not.

We just cannot pretend that Warhammer Fantasy Battle is written in such a way that you can positively know everything by putting each word under a microscope. Did the designers think more about the true meaning of the word “automatic” than they did about letting Pit of Shades ignore all special rules a target might have? Or about omitting the fact that units can’t pass through each other? Or about whether the new monster & handler rules applied to salamanders? Or about whether a booster spell makes a model’s attack magical?

They didn’t put in the effort.

EvC
17-08-2007, 23:23
Be that as it may, I don't see how the fact that GW didn't consider the "correct" meaning of automatic means that automatic now means "for free" as well. There is another rule, quoted repeatedly in this thread, that tells us what the most important thing in the movement is- and that's backed up by the actual meaning of automatic, not the pesudo non-meaning.

Atrahasis
18-08-2007, 04:28
To expand on what EvC has said; just because we know the designers sometimes (even oftentimes, if we're feeling vindictive) make mistakes does not give us license to assume that they make mistakes whenever it suits us to assume so.

If the rules are contradictory or simply cannot work as written, then the only recourse is to play them in a mutually agreeable manner. If they seem counter to "common" sense but function without contradiction then we cannot reasonably argue with someone who insists they are played as-is.

Krankenstein
18-08-2007, 12:46
To expand on what EvC has said; just because we know the designers sometimes (even oftentimes, if we're feeling vindictive) make mistakes does not give us license to assume that they make mistakes whenever it suits us to assume so.

Neither can we display fake certainty when it suits us to do so. Because fake certainty and other argument phase techniques can win you the game with equal ease whether you are disingenuous or honest in your reading of the rules.

As to the main issue, my argument is made clear in post 66. At present, I have nothing more to add.

Atrahasis
18-08-2007, 12:49
"Fake certainty"?

I am certain that the word "automatically" does not mean "for free". There is nothing fake about that certainty. Dictionaries agree with me.