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Latro_
04-08-2007, 17:24
what do you think of it in regards to putting together an actual army list.

Takitron
04-08-2007, 17:26
I think its great they killed iron warriors :)

They could have done something like traits for SM. honestly, it kinda sucks to lose the legions.

Charax
04-08-2007, 17:36
I'm working on my first list right now - my lord is everything expensive!

I am a bit of an upgrade junkie, but when one of my basic squads costs 407 points you start thinking maybe it's time to cut back. Thanks to the rumours I had plenty of advance warning of this, though - so such huge squads will only form a small core for some Iconed CSM squads.

I've also just noticed that minimum-sized units of Chosen, Terminators and Dreadnoughts cost the same points :D

Putting together a list is much easier without having to worry about wargear limits and flipping between the unit entry and the Armoury, but I would have preferred having the text of a unit's rules in the Army list rather than in a completely different seperate section - at least with the old format you had a "Rules" section (from the armoury to the end of the Army List/Wargear section) so it was easier to flip through.

I'm going to miss the options for characters as I was a long-term fan of some obscure and unusual choices (Plague Sword and Powerfist was one of my favourites - no longer possible)

Overall this codex makes you think more than the last one, I feel. There are no obvious "losers" in the codex that you'd never take, so anything is a possibility. The different weapon options and costs for different units also helps emphasize different aspects of the army (the high cost of a Berzerker champion's powerfist, or the option for Raptor champions with twin Claws)

I would have liked some things done differently, but overall I'm not too upset about it. We've gained some unexpected things (Gift of Chaos has gone from "ooh, that's interesting" to "Oh sweet Jehova", Defiler options, Pintle Havoc Launchers) and lost some old favourites (Blight Grenades changing in the effect they've had since second edition for a completely opposite role).

starlight
04-08-2007, 17:39
@ Takitron: ...for now. They made it clear that the Legions are *not* the most common form of Traitor Marines, but they never said they'd be abandoned.:p Renegades need more attention and this is how they are going about it. Kudos to them I say, especially since this might actually get me to field a Chaos army for the first time *ever*. Playing a recently fallen (or *on the knife edge*) chapter might be fun, but the actual Traitor Legions hold no appeal for me...

Food for thought...

Brother-Hyuuga
04-08-2007, 17:41
I think its great they killed iron warriors :)

They could have done something like traits for SM. honestly, it kinda sucks to lose the legions.

They didnt kill IW. They killed powergaming IW. I ran an IW force that consisted of 2 Predators. 3 Squads of 10 Marines and 2 Squads of Bezerkers, and a Lord with Chosen Retinue. You know because even if you smash something to the ground you still have to send men in and claim it. I know IW couldnt have Bezerkers so it was just in name. (If you read Storm of Iron you will see IW who are devotees of Khorne.)

Charax
04-08-2007, 17:41
One of my friends said that one of the games designers (andy something. Not Hall) mentioned a week ago that the Legions would be in the Daemons codex.

Of course, I'm skeptical so I don't expect the rest of you to believe it.

RedSarge
04-08-2007, 17:46
Where did the KoS, Bloodthirster, GuO and LoC go? Seriously what the hell!?
You cannot get rid of them and they MUST have different stats to represent level of skill or degree of survivability. Is to hard to just copy and paste the old rules from the 4th Edition v.1(however many revisions they did?).

I'm sorry but 40k is being ruined by having it's Codex's simplified for whatever audience GW believes needs simple dex's. :(

Charax
04-08-2007, 17:48
They're all "Sumonned Greater Daemons" - the individual stats will return next year in the daemons codex, and I'm sure there will be rules for having them in CSM armies (I will be speechless if you can't)

Just going to have to wait, I'm afraid.

starlight
04-08-2007, 17:52
Or...*gasp*...use the old rules:eek:!!!

Seriously people, if you like the old versions of the GDs, use them. If your opponents have an issue, perhaps you need new opponents...:eyebrows: It's not like they were actually good value for their points *anyways*.

This *is* a game, and the purpose *is* to have fun. If you've missed that bit....:eyebrows:

Charax
04-08-2007, 17:57
and while you're at it, use the old Obliterators too. and the ability to take Wargear - after all, who needs balance when you can just pick and choose the best parts of two editions?

Hell, have some REAL fun and summon 3+ save Bloodletters with the new summoning rules. That'll be fun.

RedSarge
04-08-2007, 18:05
Having to wait for another codex is silly and just IMO a ploy for more money.
I don't even play or use a Chaos army of any kind but I think that all armies should be treated equally in terms of codex variety/options. Don't water-dwon the Chaos marines and then give Tau or Space marines another codex.

Eldar got screwed, Dark Angels (which I play) got screwed, and Chaos are next in line.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 18:10
The codex is about perfect.

The only thing i still cant wrap my head around and/or justify is AP3 bolters.

Luckily my store has kinda decided that anyone who does Thousand sons better do a 'pure' thousand sons army or they are cheesing it up.

Non of the real 1k players are bothered at all.

starlight
04-08-2007, 18:11
Actually what you call *getting screwed* is exactly what many players have been asking for when they want tournament lists. Sadly they are the most vocal, so they get what they want in the basic books. Apocalypse (which rightly tosses the FOC out the window) is the counter to that.

If you want one, play *this*, if you want the other, play *that*.:D

The basic books are about a simpler game that works well in the tournament environment, whereas Apocalypse and (to a lesser extent) Cities of Death are all about having fun playing with your toys.

Charax
04-08-2007, 18:11
how can you do a Pure thousand sons army? Just vehicles and Daemons for everything that isn't Troops and no Chaos Lord?

Looks like your store is being a little unfair on the poor thousand sons players.

grizzly ruin
04-08-2007, 18:14
The codex is about perfect.

The only thing i still cant wrap my head around and/or justify is AP3 bolters.

Luckily my store has kinda decided that anyone who does Thousand sons better do a 'pure' thousand sons army or they are cheesing it up.

Non of the real 1k players are bothered at all.

Have the people at your store run the math of 10 CSMs with 8 Bolters & 2 PGs vs. 6 TS with AP 3 bolters & Sorc w/ Doombolt (roughly same cost, the TS unit is more expensive.



And it's nice to see your store decided people should do a pure Thousand Sons army, which would relegate TS players to only HQs, TS troops and vehicles...

Adra
04-08-2007, 18:21
Im not that keen...the more i read it the more i dislike it. Fluff bit is fine i guess but it all feels much more...well...childish tbh. The description of the chaos spawn is really silly...makes em sound daft instead of of the horror and insanity on legs that they are.

The entire codex feels kind of lifeless and dull. Too clinical. The army list itself feels like painting by numbers. For some reason i liked this system for DA but i am loathing it for chaos....i want to create an interesting mix of wargear and use it in a cool way. Instead i feel like all creativity from building an army has been removed. There are plenty of great units in the game but i find myself wanting units that are awesome instead of full of character. This codex is chaos space marines for dummies. Im sure i will make some cool units out of em but for now i cant bring myself to start a list..

Charax
04-08-2007, 18:27
Anyone else noticed that all the Chaos units that can have rhinos can have them regardless of size? even units with sizes up to 20?

I think my 14-man Plaguemarine squads just discovered their Havok-armed portable walls...

Killgore
04-08-2007, 18:28
The codex is about perfect.

The only thing i still cant wrap my head around and/or justify is AP3 bolters.

Luckily my store has kinda decided that anyone who does Thousand sons better do a 'pure' thousand sons army or they are cheesing it up.

Non of the real 1k players are bothered at all.

are you joking?

a 10 man 1k son Troop choice including sorcerer with the cheapest power and no other extras comes to 300 points!

you gotta remember they are very very slow and easily outpaced to get out of rapid fire range

nah they arnt over powered, if you let them get within rapid fire range then thats your own dum fault, same applys to giving cover saves to your troops who are likly to get shot up



Its the Terminators I'd watch out for bwahaha, either very cheap units of them or fully tooled up mega units

Worsle
04-08-2007, 18:38
AP3 bolters really are not as scary as it sounds. Personally I really like the new codex I have not tried to make a list out of it yet but other than a couple of units that seems a little fishy it is all rather good (I am going to use a dreadnought no matter what any way).

W0lf
04-08-2007, 18:39
By pure sons i mean no other mark or icon but tzeentch.

They can still take vehicles, lords and such (duh)

And my store hasnt made it a rule. Its mutually agreed as the cheese free way to play 1k sons.

Lists that combine 1k marines and beserkers are SICK.

I love the new list and will be fielding a all terminator list (for those people who read literally i will have two cheap troop options -.-)

The Anarchist
04-08-2007, 18:41
have only just got my hands on the new codex, i have so far got about 10 lines into it. howeer from the broader over view i get of it iv got to say for a codex to do with "Chaos" it is blooming well ordered. i feel that any chance of me playing chaos has been killed. the options for legions and heavily theamed forces have been neutered, and this is where i get all my real fun. :(

Chaos Undivided
04-08-2007, 18:51
have only just got my hands on the new codex, i have so far got about 10 lines into it. howeer from the broader over view i get of it iv got to say for a codex to do with "Chaos" it is blooming well ordered. i feel that any chance of me playing chaos has been killed. the options for legions and heavily theamed forces have been neutered, and this is where i get all my real fun. :(

Do you actually own a copy of the new dex or are you looking at a store copy??

Adra
04-08-2007, 18:56
have only just got my hands on the new codex, i have so far got about 10 lines into it. howeer from the broader over view i get of it iv got to say for a codex to do with "Chaos" it is blooming well ordered.

Lol my exact first thought was the same...ironic isnt it? :D

Legion
04-08-2007, 19:02
Do you actually own a copy of the new dex or are you looking at a store copy??

own mine :)

Arhalien
04-08-2007, 19:02
Eldar got screwed,

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Excuse me? This is the new Eldar Codex you're talking about?
So, let's look over the bad points:
Starcannon made heavy 2 and more expensive
Guardians made less useful than Aspect Warriors

Sooo..... because you can no longer play a starcannon spam army of doom, or because Aspect Warriors, who should always be the main fighting force of the craftworld, got made more worth taking than Guardians; a citizen militia only called upon in times of dire need.

In return you get a list with so much variety; it can be played in huge numbers of ways and still win.

lord_blackfang
04-08-2007, 19:04
C:CSM just took DA's mantle of "Closest to Perfection."

Yeah, a few things could have been done better, but on the whole this is GW's best 3rd-4th edition book to date. I've found one single typo on my first read (and it was in the fluff, anyway). Wording of the rules is the clearest of any GW book ever. There's plenty of new fluff, I think the only copy-paste jobs are a few paragraphs for the special characters. And the army is potent but balanced. 9/10 from me.

Charax
04-08-2007, 19:08
not all of the new background is good - they relegated the Obliterator virus to the status of myth!

lord_blackfang
04-08-2007, 19:15
not all of the new background is good - they relegated the Obliterator virus to the status of myth!

Didn't anyone tell you? Real GW veterans can mix-n-match fluff from different editions however they like :p

Chaos Undivided
04-08-2007, 19:17
Didn't anyone tell you? Real GW veterans can mix-n-match fluff from different editions however they like :p

And why the hell not!?? its our hobby!

Latro_
04-08-2007, 19:45
copy-paste jobs are a few paragraphs for the special characters. And the army is potent but balanced. 9/10 from me.

there are a quite a few c&p jobbies i noticed in a few places in the fluff. hehe Was it me or did they describe the units etc, then in alot of cases tag on how that related to 'renegades'.

Latro_
04-08-2007, 19:52
anyone also notice how lord cant have a retinue now?
so he'll be starting the game alone etc, inc reserve.

Dont think we'll be seeing too many lords,


also a sorceror gets terminator half the price of a lord!

Charax
04-08-2007, 20:01
yes, but that's probably because the Chaos Lord has far more options when in terminator armour than a Sorceror does

Worsle
04-08-2007, 20:03
No it is because the lord's terminator armour gives you a power sword too while the sorcerer already has his force weapon before hand.

Over all I am finding the idea of a Fabius Bile army rather tempting, would give me a good reason to sprinkle the new possessed bits round as his improvements.

Latro_
04-08-2007, 20:07
sone another tester army list to see how stuff pans out,

1k.. not to bad.
terminators are defo a strong choice in the new codex.

Chaos Sorcerer
Force weapon, combi weapon, doom bolt, terminator armour

5 marines
meltagun, chaos glory, bolters etc..

5 marines
meltagun, chaos glory, bolters etc..

6 Terminators
Power weapons, Twin-linked bolters
2x combi weapons, Reaper autocannon
1x chamption upgrade w/ power fist

5 Terminators
Power weapons, Twin-linked bolters
2x combi weapons, Reaper autocannon
1x chamption upgrade w/ power fist

Vindicator

Vindicator

Mouldsta
04-08-2007, 20:21
I'm quite amazed at some of the responses, it seems quite clear that some people have no imagination what so ever. You can still do the old legions either equally well or even better than before (alright not alpha legion), but now have even more options. Just because there isn't a page that says "congratulations, you now have a world eaters army" doesn't mean you can't do one.

I'm personally looking forward to some of the modeling ideas - lets take raptors for instance, I could have some kind of eagle men (tzeentch), or possibly giant bloated flies (nurgle) etc, not to mention the fact that raptors (for example) have now become 4 times more useful - they can either fly through the heaviest fire, be devestating in assault, shrug off small arms fire, or kill MEQ's before they get to attack, or they can fill the role they already fill.

Some people I feel equate wargear to flavour or theme. Chaos champions are now not silly uber lords, but instead highly effecient killing machines. For under 150 points you can have a flying monsterous creature with decent WS, decent ammounts of attacks and can't be instant killed. Doesn't bother with the expensive extra stuff, just pure killing. So good infact you can have 2. How about a khorne lord with a possible 16 power weapon attacks? Again under 150 pts.

Anyone complaining about the loss of blood thirsters must have taken a severe blow to the head - I used a BT all the time, now for the loss of -1 WS, 3+ armour and wings I instead gain the fact that it doesn't use FoC (hello lord, DP AND greater daemon), can be summoned out of any character, isn't unstable, and IS LESS THAN HALF PRICE. Mine will still be modeled as a BT, will still be called a BT but will be better, albeit it won't officially have a "blood thirster" statline - not a great loss IMO

Wonna
04-08-2007, 20:30
Anyone complaining about the loss of blood thirsters must have taken a severe blow to the head - I used a BT all the time, now for the loss of -1 WS, 3+ armour and wings I instead gain the fact that it doesn't use FoC (hello lord, DP AND greater daemon), can be summoned out of any character, isn't unstable, and IS LESS THAN HALF PRICE. Mine will still be modeled as a BT, will still be called a BT but will be better, albeit it won't officially have a "blood thirster" statline - not a great loss IMO

Agreed. While I'll miss the maneuverability of a GD with wings, I have no problem at all with the new rules. 90% of the time my 'Thirster would be lucky to see a single round of combat before disappearing back into the warp due to instability. It was very hit-and-miss for a 200+ point unit.

From what I've heard, the wings upgrade also allows the bearer to Deep Strike. It's going to be tempting to risk bringing a winged prince down behind cover in my opponent's lines...

Latro_
04-08-2007, 20:32
bit of another transport oddness

chosen can have a rhino, even though they can infiltrate as standard. Odd. Might be worth buying one and using it as a wall for the rest of the army.

Infiltrate the chosen with 5 melta guns lol ;)

Charax
04-08-2007, 20:32
A fairly basic 1500pt army:
HQ
Daemon Prince
Wings
Mark of Nurgle
Warp Time

Sorceror
Mark of Nurgle
Palanquin of Nurgle
Gift of Chaos
Plasma Pistol
Personal Icon
Familiar
DoomBolt

Elites
Dreadnought
2x Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon

Troops:
14x Plague Marines
Plague Champion
Power Weapon
Plasma Pistol
Meltabombs
2x Plasmaguns

Chaos Rhino
Pintle-mounted Havok Launcher

14x Plague Marines
Plague Champion
Power Weapon
Plasma Pistol
Meltabombs
2x Plasmaguns

Heavy Support
Defiler
2x Close Combat Arms

Army Total: 1494

Not at all sure about that Daemon Prince. It's the cheapest unit in the army (bar the vehicles) but I'm not sure about how it'll do.

I'm perfectly aware of how much of a liability only having two main infantry units is in 1500pts, but with T5 and Feel No Pain I'm hoping they'll hold out. Hell, a roughly equal number of Plaguemarines have held out before WITHOUT FNP, so this should be a breeze.

Taking the Palanquin and Gift was a big, big points sink. Luckily Steeds don't change your size category so he should be fine behind one of the other units or a Rhino. The Dread and Defiler will be on the same flank, one Plaguemarine squad in the middle with the other squad, Sorceror and the Rhino on the other. Hopefully the prospect of a 5-attack Fleeting Defiler will discourage the enemy from attacking that flank and herd them towards the other one, with 4 Plasma weapons, a Havoc launcher and Gift of Chaos (which is going to be absolutely sick)

Ordnance is going to kick my ass

BDJV
04-08-2007, 20:47
Do you have to have a marked HQ to include cult units as troops choices?

I was rumored the Ancient Enemies rule is gone is this true too?

Charax
04-08-2007, 20:48
Nope. All Cult units are troops choices anyway

BDJV
04-08-2007, 20:50
Wow, that's outstanding!

lord_blackfang
04-08-2007, 20:58
Hey Charax, what the heck is that Sorcerer doing with a Plasma Pistol? He has a superior shooty power anyway ;)


Here's mine.




HQ-----------------------------------------------------------

Typhus

ELITES-------------------------------------------------------

7 Terminators, Icon'o'Nurgle, Reaper, Chainfist, 2x Combi-weapon

Dreadnought, Multi-melta, Missile

TROOPS-------------------------------------------------------

7 Plague Marines, 2x Plasma Gun

7 Plague Marines, 2x Flamer, Champion, Power Weapon, Icon, Rhino

7 Plague Marines, 2x Meltagun, Champion, Power Fist, Icon, Rhino

7 Plaguebearers

7 Plaguebearers

----
1500

Charax
04-08-2007, 21:03
I like plasma pistols. Besides, if I go up against a Brass Scorpion I've got to be able to do something...

hey! if I swap out Doombolt for Nurgle's Rot he costs the same as a Land Raider :D

BDJV
04-08-2007, 21:08
.
hey! if I swap out Doombolt for Nurgle's Rot he costs the same as a Land Raider :D
Wow, that'd be an expensive sorcerer! :eek:

Charax
04-08-2007, 21:08
Depends on which army's Land Raider it is

Dr. Who
04-08-2007, 21:10
What on earth is the point of a Dreadnought with the new 'Crazed' rule? The Defiler and Obliterators can do just about everything a Dread can with about zero drawback and the new Fire Frenzy result is just..... just..... just..... Suffice to say, it is craptasticly bad on so many levels - IMHO anyway. Are Gav and Jervis trying to exorcise the ghost of Pete Haines?! :wtf::eyebrows:

I do not like the fact that all the options and daemons went out the pram with the new codex, but I'm willing to give it a shot. My Worldeater and Deathguard armies can be done to a reasonable extent and there are new things to try out: Khorne Raptors and vanilla Terminators for example. My Wordbearers I consider DOA (I hate the generic daemons with a passion and using Mark of Tzeentch to represent WB characters, is a none starter in my army. Tzeentch is for 1K Sons. Period. I considered Alpha Legion before the rumours picked up, and I may still try a variant of them. Nightlords with those spiffy new Raptors are intriguing now too.

My very, very, very early impression of the new codex is: Balanced and Boring. I do not subscribe to theory that plenty of choice and fair balance are mutually exclusive. Time will tell.....

- Dr.

Dr. Who
04-08-2007, 21:14
Do you have to have a marked HQ to include cult units as troops choices?

I was rumored the Ancient Enemies rule is gone is this true too?

Ancient Enemies is indeed gone as far as I can read/see. In fact the old rivalries aren't even mentioned anywhere.

Mix away, Bartender!

- Dr.

Latro_
04-08-2007, 21:17
hehe my 1500pt

you can get alot more in there if you keep bits vanilla, then pimp up some units.
force is like a nurgle/khorne mixed warband. Check it out! lots of men, lots of guns, some sneaky surprises (hello mr chosen)

Chaos Sorcerer
Force weapon, combi weapon, doom bolt, terminator armour

Daemon Prince
CCW, Mark Nurgle, Doombolt, Wings


10 Chaos Space Marines
Bolters, Bolt pistols, CCW's, frag, krak
Plasma gun, Missile launcher, MOCG

8 Chaos Space Marines
Bolters, Bolt pistols, CCW's, frag, krak
Flamer, Khorne Icon
w/ Asp Champion
Power fist

Rhino
twin bolter etc..

10 Lesser Daemons

7 Chosen
Bolters, Bolt pistols, CCW's, frag, krak
4x Melta guns
w/ Asp Champion
Power fist

5 Terminators
Power weapons, Twin-linked bolters, chaos glory
2x combi weapons, Reaper autocannon
1x chamption upgrade w/ power fist

Predator
Twin Lascannon, Side Lascannon

Dreadnought
smoke, light, 2xDCCW, twin bolter

Charax
04-08-2007, 21:19
There seem to be quite a few of us now with access to the codex itself, do you think it would be worth opening a Tactics thread to start hunting new tricks so we're prepared when it is finally released, or would we be swamped with "What does that do?" and "How much does that cost?" from the other members?

BDJV
04-08-2007, 21:25
Latro, that list looks pretty tasty!

Yum, yum!:evilgrin:

Adra
04-08-2007, 21:26
There seem to be quite a few of us now with access to the codex itself, do you think it would be worth opening a Tactics thread to start hunting new tricks so we're prepared when it is finally released, or would we be swamped with "What does that do?" and "How much does that cost?" from the other members?

You may end up with some IP issues but u can try if u like.

Takitron
04-08-2007, 21:42
@ Takitron: ...for now. They made it clear that the Legions are *not* the most common form of Traitor Marines, but they never said they'd be abandoned.:p Renegades need more attention and this is how they are going about it. Kudos to them I say, especially since this might actually get me to field a Chaos army for the first time *ever*. Playing a recently fallen (or *on the knife edge*) chapter might be fun, but the actual Traitor Legions hold no appeal for me...

Food for thought...

I agree with you 100%.

mistformsquirrel
04-08-2007, 22:17
My first try (coming as close as I can to the fluff for my lost legion as I can get - I realize its not optimal in many ways, but meh)

HQ:

Chaos Lord w/ Pair of Lightning Claws, Mark of Tzeentch

Chaos Sorcerer w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Warp Time, Doombolt, Personal Icon

Elites:

7 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist

7 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist

8 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist

Troops:

5 Chaos Space Marines

5 Chaos Space Marines

Heavy Support:

1 Obliterator

1 Obliterator

1 Obliterator

Total: 1500pts

Latro_
04-08-2007, 22:19
My first try (coming as close as I can to the fluff for my lost legion as I can get - I realize its not optimal in many ways, but meh)

HQ:

Chaos Lord w/ Pair of Lightning Claws, Mark of Tzeentch

Chaos Sorcerer w/ Mark of Tzeentch, Warp Time, Doombolt, Personal Icon

Elites:

7 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist –

7 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist

8 Chaos Terminators w/ Icon of Tzeentch, Chainfist –

Troops:

5 Chaos Space Marines –

5 Chaos Space Marines –

Heavy Support:

1 Obliterator –

1 Obliterator –

1 Obliterator –

Total: 1500pts

defo need spec + heavy weps in all the units. Might wanan edit the pts costs out ye posty or admino may delete it.

mistformsquirrel
04-08-2007, 22:35
Woops, sorry about that. They usually don't mind the combined total for units, but I forgot that the Obliterators are individual in this list.

The main problem I'm running up against is that because I want a mostly/all termy army, I have to spend 150pts on troops that I really don't care about. My fluff justification is that they're a broken formation of other Marines that the Terminators are coming in to aid as back up.

Do you think I should drop one of the Chainfists for Heavy Flamers in all the Termie Squads; and then have them Deep Strike?

Reapers are expensive; and as I have few models as is... that concerns me.

Suggestions welcome!

Worsle
04-08-2007, 22:58
Setting up a thread in the tatics section sounds like a good idea. Might be best to make it a rule not to explain what things do and to stop some of the other stuff that would pull us of track/deleted. I am really liking the sound of Bile at the moment, and a squad or two of his enhanced marines either with the icon of khorne or slaanesh not done the costing but the downsides don't seem too bad at the moment.

Bunnahabhain
04-08-2007, 23:14
bit of another transport oddness

chosen can have a rhino, even though they can infiltrate as standard. Odd. Might be worth buying one and using it as a wall for the rest of the army.

Infiltrate the chosen with 5 melta guns lol ;)


IIRC, there are FAQs for units with infiltrate and transport options- I'm thinkling of Guard vetarans, but I'm sure there are others- if you take a dedicated transport for the unit, you lose infiltraite.

Charax
04-08-2007, 23:31
Tactics thread posted (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1802741) - this one can go back to being about what you think of army composition

CherryMan
04-08-2007, 23:57
the thing i hate the most is the lay out of the book itself, if people thought it was a bit tricky to find the right stuff in the old book this is about the same:/

Hellebore
05-08-2007, 00:01
Is it me, or does this codex rely mostly on points costs to provide balance?

What I mean is, most armies have built in disadvantages (tau and combat etc) - if cults are Troops, and you have all those other options, you can literally tailor your army to take on all comers. A unit of thousand sons for anti meq work, a unit of noise marines for anti geq, and beserkers for close combat - and that's before you get into the generic units (or the customisable obliterators).

Not saying this is unbalanced, simply that it appears as though the only real check/limitation on the army is points rather than inbuilt restrictions...

Hellebore

dcikgyurt
05-08-2007, 00:30
Okay.......

Having read all the previous threads on this topic and knowing that you can't post points or rules I'm left with just the following two questions.

1. Does it look pretty (artwork, layout etc.)?

2. Is it a good read?

Takitron
05-08-2007, 02:33
Is it me, or does this codex rely mostly on points costs to provide balance?

What I mean is, most armies have built in disadvantages (tau and combat etc) - if cults are Troops, and you have all those other options, you can literally tailor your army to take on all comers. A unit of thousand sons for anti meq work, a unit of noise marines for anti geq, and beserkers for close combat - and that's before you get into the generic units (or the customisable obliterators).

Not saying this is unbalanced, simply that it appears as though the only real check/limitation on the army is points rather than inbuilt restrictions...

Hellebore


I think you hit the nail on the head sir. A lot of people are whining about what they might have lost or change, without looking at the fact that the book can be run like Eldar. with units for each need, but they are still Space Marines. Do spacemarines really have any built in disadvantages? it will be funny to make fun of Csmurfs now with the standardization of the codex :) Take THAT!

lord_blackfang
05-08-2007, 08:11
the thing i hate the most is the lay out of the book itself, if people thought it was a bit tricky to find the right stuff in the old book this is about the same:/

You're certainly right about that. The layout is atrocious. Whose bright idea was it to stick the hobby section in between Special Rules and the Army List?

BDJV
05-08-2007, 08:15
You're certainly right about that. The layout is atrocious. Whose bright idea was it to stick the hobby section in between Special Rules and the Army List?
Wow, that does sound horrid.:eek:

vipernyc
05-08-2007, 08:56
Liking it so far... I feel like there is a lot more flexibility and choice as far as units go, as I'm considering taking units that I never have before, like raptors or 1ksons. The loss of a lot of the wargear and daemonic gifts is kind of a bummer, but it seems like they only got rid of ones that seemed redundant to me, while incorporating common ones (like stature and rune) into the DP's special rules.

The only thing I am not crazy about are daemon weapons. I am not completely sold on the risk vs. the reward... I don't so much care about losing the wound on a 1, but losing all attacks for the round seems disastrous to me. However, I guess I will have to try using them eventually and see how it goes in practice.

Worsle
05-08-2007, 09:12
It is not to hard at all. It would have been nice if it went straight from the detailed descriptions to the list building section but other than that it is rather easy to use. At the back you have the quick reference with page numbers for the more detailed descriptions if you need them and then the section with all the points. At worst have a free sheet of paper with the quick reference so you don't have to look at the end of the book to see where to look.

CSM have always been able to do a bit of every thing, how ever now it feels more balanced. Though I guess time will show what is what there but there does still seem like a lot of possibles.

Daemon weapons I agree that only one of the downsides would have done rather than both. Dreadnoughts seem to be a way of side lining them as they can't be bothered making a new model (yes its an anti selling conspiracy).

jubilex
05-08-2007, 10:11
For putting a list together, it's great. There is almost nothing to do.
For former legion players, the unit choices are more varied, but the choices within most units themsleves are virtually non-existant.

I was concerned first about the loss of the legions, still am.
Second it was model loss. Not as bad as first thought, mainly due to my possessed getting drafted into "normal" squads. No more possessed for me.

But rarely have I been more bored reading a 40k book. A NEW codex that has left me yawning.
They could have saved a million gallons of ink and a forest of trees by not including the endless repetion of "power weapon for x, power fist for x" over and over again in damn near every entry.

Havent read the fluff yet, hope that's good, but the list is just awfull imo.

Carlos
05-08-2007, 10:49
I goota say theyve done what they did with the eldar: Make the powerful stuff expensive and balance the list out.

Everything that was unbalanced before is no longer and there are considerable advantages to offset some losses (Like being able to take 9 Obliterators/unlimited in Apocalypse. Gulp) such as being able to take 20 Plague/Thousands/Berzerkers/Noise in one unit. 20 Sonic Blasters at Heavy 3? Double Gulp!

Arhalien
05-08-2007, 10:50
You're certainly right about that. The layout is atrocious. Whose bright idea was it to stick the hobby section in between Special Rules and the Army List?

Maybe the same person that designed the Wood Elf army book in the same way? That's annoying me intensely at the moment.

Charax
05-08-2007, 10:52
aren't all Warhammer army books like that? I only have the Vamp Counts and Beasts of Chaos books and I remember finding the layout similarly annoying.

SpinO
05-08-2007, 10:52
You're certainly right about that. The layout is atrocious. Whose bright idea was it to stick the hobby section in between Special Rules and the Army List?

The Warhammer Fantasy army books have been like that for ages, though...

Wraithbored
05-08-2007, 10:59
I think the new dex is just fine. Some of the chaosy stuff is gone(daemons for one), but I'm sure players will bring that flavour in with conversions painting and use of units(I'm sure 1k players are grinning madly at this right now, well you guys do deserve it you had an underdog army for too long). And the only thing that makes me cringe and go running for cover is ap3 bolters. I think I can deal with the rest with a bit luck and good deployment.


Edit: I'm sure we'll again see a severe uprising in the "oh no3s my army got nerfed" whines. Do play at least 10 games with the new rules before crying. The 40k forums are oversaturated with whine and cheese threads as it is.

folnjir
05-08-2007, 11:49
In reply to Lord Blackfang’s list. I think you will have problems in summoning your daemons. I have only looked at the new list briefly but from memory, Plague marines are listed as having the Mark of Nurgle and not an Icon, which, to my reading means that daemons can not be summoned on them. This is backed up from my memory that Typhus has both the Mark of Nurgle and a personal icon.

I do not have the list in front of me so I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

Charax
05-08-2007, 11:50
Cult units have the option to have a Personal Icon on one member.

folnjir
05-08-2007, 11:52
Cult units have the option to have a Personal Icon on one member.

Thanks, that solves the first of my problems in building my Deathguard, using the new list.

studderigdave
05-08-2007, 13:34
in our group we currently debating allowing demons to retain their old abilites, and costs. i have no problem using the old demon rules, i mean i only use plaguegearers, but i can use my nurglings still. before you rules lawyers get all pissy about our choice, recognize that we are a CASUAL group who dont play in tourneys so most of your whining about RAI vs. RAW doesnt even register to us. its our choice.

other than that i find the chaos book to be decent. just dont care for the streamlining of demons, so we changed it to better suit us.

Iron Pacifier
05-08-2007, 18:07
I've had a quick read through it and the first impression are(I've read most of the rumors btw):
Psychic Powers are awesome.
The army leans more towards CC than before.
Why whip a dead horse? Dreadnoughts made cheaper but both fire frenzy and blood rage made worse.

TheOverlord
05-08-2007, 19:44
I love this book! Just finished reading through it, awesome stuff!

There were many complaints about this book but I find that honestly this book isn't at all as bad as some paint it out to be! Everything in here is worth it (well... maybe not possesed...) and awesomely done.

Termie champion squads will be so sweet! Deep Strike them with an icon nearby the enemies with 2 heavy flamers (10 man squads) and every other termie with a combi flamer and that's one very roasted unit! Awesome stuff in this, very very versatile! I don't even notice the loss of toughness for the obliterators, everything else makes up for it!

Dreadnoughts though, I'm not sure how well they'll be... either lascannons or multimeltas for sure... the frenzy charts a little unforgiving, but c'mon, if you were so scared of malfunctioning hardware you'd be playing loyalists instead of a real codex :P

Stad
05-08-2007, 23:07
I like the fact Obilits and termies are now good pairings... you can send them both in DS and flank them.

I seem to like the new codex (from the one I saw at the local store). I play Khorne/WE but now instead of having all berserkers w powerfists, I can get my havoc's, chosen, and reg chaos troops to cover the flank. Sad to see no combat squad size - since I love the flexibility, but now that groups are all up to X size, might be nidizza and take a large formation for time to time.

Sad to see Axe of Khorne gone, and the chaotic nature of possessed will be different, but I guess it can be good too, less worry about modeling.

WallWeasels
05-08-2007, 23:21
Everytime a codex comes out, everyone whines, regardless, its the same with the change 3rd to 4th. People quite naturally hate change. Nevertheless, no chaos player is "screwed" and people grossly exaggerate things. This is usually why I hate talking about a book before I have actually seen it. But maybe all the bad rep just lowers my expectations of a codex, and thus I feel it isn't bad at all. :p The same goes with movies too.

Vaktathi
06-08-2007, 04:05
some things in the new dex are really cool, the cheap raptors and terminators, the frag/krak/bp/ccw/bolter as standard, the standardized daemon prince, csm land raider, etc...

however other things I think they went a bit overboard on, like jacking the price of predators and nerfing daemonic possession (how many people are going to be taking BS3 160pt predators?) , needing 10 man squads for a single heavy weapon (why do you need 10 dudes to take a heavy bolter?), overdoing the Daemon weapons (both in power and drawbacks), making fire frenzy target nearest model so Dreads are even less viable as shooting platforms than they were before, etc...


overall I think this codex did some things well, but overcompensated some things when trying to fix others.

this codex gets a "C" from me overall.

Carlos
06-08-2007, 10:05
Generally GW added the 10 men = Heavy weapon rule to stop Min/Maxing in the same way Combat Squads do with Marines. I fully expect the next grad tournament to be veeeeery interesting.

I do like the new codex. I dont play chaos but the only person I play against plays as them so this is a big deal for me.

Voodoo Boyz
06-08-2007, 10:46
I can't answer the poll because I don't think the Dex fits in a category so well.

On one hand so many things were nerfed completely (khorne, demons, greater demons, vehicles in general), but on the other you get things like 2x Demon Princes, the Lash of Submission, and 9 Oblits for everyone.

There are very few things that scream "DON'T TAKE ME!" which are the Possessed, Demon Weapons, and to a lesser extent, Dreads and Bezerkers.

StefDa
06-08-2007, 10:57
Damn I'm looking forward to this...

Panic
06-08-2007, 11:51
I actually like the new codex rather than the one right next to me ATM.
It took a bit of the cheese factor out of 'em IMO.
I'm definitely making an army. Can't wait.
My Word Bearers will just remain in the display shelf except for the daemons ;) I'm going to start fresh.

foehammer888
06-08-2007, 12:44
You're certainly right about that. The layout is atrocious. Whose bright idea was it to stick the hobby section in between Special Rules and the Army List?
I haven't actually seen the book myself, but I believe this is a recent push by GW to make the army list the final section of the codex, making it easier to find. Thus most codexes will now follow this layout

1) fluff
2) unit descriptions/special rules
3) hobby section
4) army list

However, not sure if this is the way it is in the chaos codex.

Foehammer

Minibull
06-08-2007, 12:45
None of the poll categories fit what my feelings are - I dislike the tossing of the ancient enemies rules and changing all of chaos to being black legion, but do like the removing of all restrictions to my Deathguard army (can have more than two troop rhinos, can have raptors, can have lascannons, etc.). So that would put me in the definate middle of the road for this codex.

Just to make sure, there are no nurglings in this codex (since they are neither greater or lesser daemons)? This would make Papa Nurgle cry... :cries:

They'd better be in the Codex: Daemons or else! :D

Petrov_101
06-08-2007, 13:10
however other things I think they went a bit overboard on, like jacking the price of predators and nerfing daemonic possession (how many people are going to be taking BS3 160pt predators?)

WOAH!!! Stop the presses! A predator costs *more* than a leman russ? Did they somehow make it more survivable for that cost or is it merely a slight improvement over the Chimera... for twice the cost?

Worsle
06-08-2007, 13:32
An all lascannon predator costs more an autocannon pred costs less. This was in the last 2 marine codexs how could any one not see this coming? Lascannons are going up in price all over, this will effect the IG when they get a new codex too.

Killgore
06-08-2007, 14:02
Demon Weapons, and to a lesser extent, Dreads and Bezerkers.



awhh rubbish

Daemon Weapon is the ultimate risk takers weapon of evil and killing

the chance of unleashing so many extra attacks is definatly worth it imho, so you may get some unpleasent deaths, farsears risk it everytime they cast a power! and many people still take them

*imagines my chaos lord laying the smack down on space marine armys like sauron did in the LotR intro*

Worsle
06-08-2007, 14:20
Daemon weapons might have a little to much risk, the fact you can take an invulnerable save against the wound (Typhus would get his FNP save too it seems) does make the Tzeentch one seem a little better though I still think they cost a bit to much.

Petrov_101
06-08-2007, 14:59
An all lascannon predator costs more an autocannon pred costs less. This was in the last 2 marine codexs how could any one not see this coming? Lascannons are going up in price all over, this will effect the IG when they get a new codex too.

OK... I was starting to panic over nothing then. I thought the basic pred cost was going up but only some of the options are it seems.

I like my autocannon preds... good to hear they haven't been priced out of my list :)

Colonel Raijan
06-08-2007, 15:14
AP3 BOLTGUNS!!!! Thousand Sons are now the prodigal sons of death, doom and turning terminators into spawn! <laughs manically> Shame about the sacking of all those daemons but as long as Ahriman gets his force weapon I'm cool.

Carlos
06-08-2007, 15:44
As ive said before I dont actually play chaos, but I play against them exclusively and so the new Codex effects me as much as the players. My opponents gripes with the old book were:

1. "Most of the wargear is crap. Who the hell uses a Needle of Pleasure?"
2. "It takes far too long to put a list together. Less options and more standardisation would be helpful."
3. "Chaos need more Ordnance."
4. "Abaddon isnt very hard. His I is too low and he only has 3w. He's more Count Duckula than Count Dooku"
5. "Kharn/Ahriman need inv saves"
6. "I dont mind paying for things so long as they actually kill something. A lot of the army is overpriced and under performs. Like Chosen."
7. "Khorne Berzerkers are the worst assault troops in the army. They die too easily and dont kill anything. Plague marines are better for the pts and Noise Marines are better in assault. They have no use."

He has been given:

- No more useless wargear. Im actually scared of his Juggernaught-riding Khorne Lord getting his hands on the Bloodfeeder.
- A quicker army composition with more standardisation.
- A Vindicator for every occasion
- Considerably beefed Special Characters
- Inv saves all round on characters, and 4+ on Ahriman
- Expensive units worth their points. Plague Marines are practically immune to all my Shuriken/Scatter laser fire now. Yay.
- Berzerkers with a more defining role. Chainaxes were never much use vs Eldar.

I personally am not relishing the prospect of fighting these guys. Thousand sons are better defneded against starcannons, The daemon prince is more than a match for my Avatar, Even a 150pt standard Lord is a close combat monster, Plague Marines can soak up ALL of my firepower.

And God help all the Tau players out there. Lash or Torment will be the end of all Fish of Fury tactics.
"You cant charge my Fire warriors. Im safe behind my tanks."
"Not for much longer!"

Mojaco
06-08-2007, 16:02
I like it. And it's funny to see that a lot of the things that I like are hated by others.

I particulary like how Chaos is back in the chaos list. The dread is back to being an idiot, but moved to Elites. Fine by me, I'll have him.

The defiler stops being a walking basilisk and becomes something quite unique in 40k, which should keep any opponent on his toes.

Possessed are completely random, making even the owner not fully aware of what his army is going to be capable of.

Spawn are just as random in behaviour, which means they too earned a place in my army list.

Chaos is more then ever not just evil marines imo. I like it.

One note though; pure 1k son lists will hardly work anymore. If you take cover into account you'll notice that 4+ inv doing do so much extra, as 1k sons players sat in cover anyway, and that ap3 loses its flair. It'll be a great unit, but not for a whole army. And mindwar will be worse then ever against them!

At first glance, just on paper, I think Nurgle has gotten the best deal overall. Nurgles rot is incredible now, plague marines will have necron people whining over their survivability and their icon suplements any army, cover or not.

dcikgyurt
06-08-2007, 16:26
I like it. And it's funny to see that a lot of the things that I like are hated by others.

I particulary like how Chaos is back in the chaos list. The dread is back to being an idiot, but moved to Elites. Fine by me, I'll have him.

The defiler stops being a walking basilisk and becomes something quite unique in 40k, which should keep any opponent on his toes.

Possessed are completely random, making even the owner not fully aware of what his army is going to be capable of.

Spawn are just as random in behaviour, which means they too earned a place in my army list.

Chaos is more then ever not just evil marines imo. I like it.

One note though; pure 1k son lists will hardly work anymore. If you take cover into account you'll notice that 4+ inv doing do so much extra, as 1k sons players sat in cover anyway, and that ap3 loses its flair. It'll be a great unit, but not for a whole army. And mindwar will be worse then ever against them!

At first glance, just on paper, I think Nurgle has gotten the best deal overall. Nurgles rot is incredible now, plague marines will have necron people whining over their survivability and their icon suplements any army, cover or not.

I'm liking a Berzerker/1K sons based army. add in a pred, a unit of oblits and defiler. I haven't decided what to use for the rest of my army yet. I'll probably add a cheap lord and a couple of units with the Icon of Chaos glory just to maintain the black legion theme. This gives me a flexible force that can march across the board (except the basic CSM units), deal out plenty of both anti-infantry and anti-tank death, and then the defiler and berzerkers smash into my opponents lines and start to butcher what has survived.

Alternatively, I can just convert my current army list to make it fit with the new rules. I just have to replace the furies with raptors, remove one sqaud of CSM, beef the other two squads up to ten men, remove the unit/vehicle upgrades I not allowed and spend the leftover points on my raptors. Job done.

However, I think it would be cool to see a unit of each cult marine type lead by an DP with the mark of chaos glory.