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W0lf
04-08-2007, 19:07
Chaos warriors are not very good. Most people agree they suck.

I propose we fix them. but how???

My solution:

Reduce to I4 and make them 2 pts cheaper (thanks to cenyu)

OR

Give them shields as standard for 14 pts a model.

This is a small decrease but really helps when taking 20+ models. It also means all chaos warriors have shields and 4+ saves from shooting.

SilentPsych0
04-08-2007, 19:16
Don't be silly that would make khornate warriors with additional hand weapons obscene. That would be 4 attacks normally and 5 for chosen

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 19:16
Lame?

Chaos Warriors are not line units. They are not meant to be front line. They are not meant to take shooting hits. My god, man. Do you feel Empire Greatswords would do well in a block of 20 on the front line?

Cenyu
04-08-2007, 19:21
Make them I4 and 12 points/model. At the same time make Chaos Knights and Chariots less attractive in comparison (some sort of mainstay relation between Warriors and Knights/Chariots or maybe a shift to Elites?).

W0lf
04-08-2007, 19:24
Lame?

Chaos Warriors are not line units.

yes they are. Chosen warriors arnt line units thus they have a 0-1 limit. Chaos warriors are line units, their is no limit on how many you can have and you may take all chaos warriors as your core.


Make them I4 and 12 points/model.

thats a good idea. Would help alot and is better then my 1st solution by a bit.

theunwantedbeing
04-08-2007, 19:37
Give them 2 attacks as standard.
Change chosen to simply give chaos armour at +2pts.
Leave the points as is.

Now they work just as intended.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 19:44
Give them 2 attacks as standard.
Change chosen to simply give chaos armour at +2pts.

the second suggestion is good. However the first one seems a tad over powering.

Giving them 2 attacks but making them I4 seems reasonable.

Just adding an attack (effectivly a 3pt upgrade - add hand wpns - atm) could make the too good?

Cenyu
04-08-2007, 19:50
Now they work just as intended.

It makes Chosen not chosen enough if you ask me.

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 21:35
yes they are. Chosen warriors arnt line units thus they have a 0-1 limit. Chaos warriors are line units, their is no limit on how many you can have and you may take all chaos warriors as your core.


Just because you can doesn't mean you'll be able to work with it. Chaos Warriors are not intended to be fielded as blocks. They are a counter-charging unit, second line.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 21:43
Just because you can doesn't mean you'll be able to work with it. Chaos Warriors are not intended to be fielded as blocks. They are a counter-charging unit, second line.

whilst this is very good in theory how many chaos armies have enough units to form a Second line???

And tbh units that dont form blocks need to be able to kill lots of enemies when they charge.. currently only Khorne warriors manage this.

Ninsaneja
04-08-2007, 22:00
And they only get to charge by being second line. Honestly. Get two marauder blocks for the front line, not that expensive. No need for full ranks, 15 models will do it. It's somewhat of a traditional strategy, but better used with a front line of missile units.

-Place the front line in the middle. Second line of hard infantry and third line of heavy cavalry will be more to the flanks (both to defend flanks and to avoid being fled through.)
-Move the front line into enemy charge range. Sacrifice them to enemy charges.
-Second line and third line charge flanks and front.

Now, if the enemy also has a sacrificial front, your marauders might be strong enough to win combats and get to the enemy second line, triggering it for your chaos. Marauders should ideally use flails or HW+S.

Causa Mortis
04-08-2007, 23:07
I think giving them 2 attacks as standard is overpowering when you consider their high ws and strength. My saurus have this but at a lower ws and don't have various options like halberds and additional hand weapons like chaos warriors do. I'm sorry but I think that is asking a bit too much.

W0lf
04-08-2007, 23:13
even if you reduce their I to 4?

sun tzu
05-08-2007, 00:50
Chaos warriors(and all other elite units) have been broken since GW change the way WS was used when they made 5ed warhammer, the old way was much the same as the "to wound chart".

theunwantedbeing
05-08-2007, 00:56
What you mean changed the way weaponskill works?
It's been the same since at least 5th edition....

sun tzu
05-08-2007, 01:14
What you mean changed the way weaponskill works?
It's been the same since at least 5th edition....

No, it's been broken since GW changed it when 5th ed came out!

Fix that and you fix all elite units (and all three types of elves)

Gorthor21
05-08-2007, 01:49
i think lowering their initiative down to 4 and giving them the shield which could be switched with either great weapon or 2 hand weapons would be good. dropping their value down to 12 would be asking a little much but it would be amazing. ive always seen chaos warriors as the core of any warband or horde, with all the other units of beastmen and tribesmen as support to their efforts. fundamentally warriors are what make the chaos imagery. the idea of heavily armored brutes storming the field is frightening indeed. a few ways that you could fix some of the problems are like making units favored by a patron diety a special unit or having chosen to have the better stats and just boosting thier points way up, they are CHOSEN for a reason. another thing that could be done to make them seem like a better choice would be to make marauders a little bit more expensive. i mean empire swordsmen have the exact same stats and when the marauders are equiped the same they are 1 point more.

Malorian
05-08-2007, 02:39
Personally I hate warriors. They cost a lot of points, and simply don't have the armor that the model shows (meanwhile the scorcerer...). Like it's been said they are obviously for counter charge, but knight do that much better and have a save to match the increase in points.

It can work if you go with marauders in front to take the hits, but then you end up with too many units and slowing your advance.

In the end I think the only way to fix them is to make the chaos armor standard (i mean look at the model) and chosen get +1 str instead of +1 save.

Kerill
05-08-2007, 05:41
Ahhh the days when they were Ws6, Bs6, Ld9 and all had two attacks as standard.

Still if they returned to that level of power I'm sure the whingeing would hit a new peak against chaos. They do need to be decreased in cost though- compare them to saurus warriors. They are far cheaper, have great armour save, have 2 attacks rather than one and testing everything on 3 dice is better than a re-roll. Lower Ws and I and not particularly important since theyare cheap enough to get a big block for combat resolution whilst still being hard hitters, with the option of spears for extra attacks from the rear and are very hard to break. I would swap CW in a minute. ALternatively GW could make them cheaper and then you pay a points cost PER MODEL for the mark rather than the unit- 12 points each, undivided for free, slaanesh for 1 point, tzeentch for 1 point nurgle for 1 or 2 points (1.5?)and khorne for 2 to three points (2). This would also stop khorne warriors from being the only viable choice.

logan054
05-08-2007, 06:46
Personally i have said this before and i will say it again, i dont think the issue is so much with the price of chaos warriors but the price of heavy cavalry, i think perhaps a taking them down to 12pts would be a good start but this would make them under prices compared to units like elf spearmen.

Neknoh
05-08-2007, 07:01
No, they would not be

each and every unit in the game is priced accordingly to THEIR army book, NOT others, comparing across books for points cost just doesn't work... at all!

Lowering their points to 12 would be all that it takes if you ask me, nothing else, just lowering their points to 12 and keep it all the same, this would make fielding blocks of twenty more viable (80 points saved) whilst still not beeing as much throwaway as Marauder blocks can be. They would then also compete a lot more with Knights, however, we are still talking Knight units of below 200 points doing the same work as Warriors. This would mean that the warriors would get a role in between that of Knights as heavy hitters and Marauders as main line units.

Comrade Wraith
05-08-2007, 07:48
Being a Chaos collecter (Tzeentch) this would be cool, and make it more of a 'horde' of chaos. but Chaos warriors are ace, especially after an army of goblins or the empire

logan054
05-08-2007, 08:26
No, they would not be

each and every unit in the game is priced accordingly to THEIR army book, NOT others, comparing across books for points cost just doesn't work... at all!

Ok i bet i can think of one, Swordsmen and marauders :P you have to a very general rice range across the board for stats, movement, hell look at character weapon options and compare them. Now as i said, if their wasnt a issue with the general pricing of cavalry then why is the all mounted list so common for most armies? as i said the issue is more with cavalry rather than warriors.


Lowering their points to 12 would be all that it takes if you ask me, nothing else, just lowering their points to 12 and keep it all the same, this would make fielding blocks of twenty more viable (80 points saved) whilst still not beeing as much throwaway as Marauder blocks can be. They would then also compete a lot more with Knights, however, we are still talking Knight units of below 200 points doing the same work as Warriors. This would mean that the warriors would get a role in between that of Knights as heavy hitters and Marauders as main line units.

OK, sounds good, how many points is a spear elf again? 11pts, so your telling me ust for 1pts i get +1 ws +1 str +1 T and +1 armour save with the actual weapon options which can bost me up to a 3+ save on foot. Sure fighting in a extra rank is worth something, i dont think its worth all that.

If they are lowering high elfs points then 12pts might be a option but as it stands it would unbalance them againt certain armies (i personally dot follow the rumours to much, some of them sound like they are from a crack addict).

I had a similar idea about marks however seeing it written down i dont believe it will fix anything, infact i think it will make things worse, see it having no real effect on the value of khorne warriors (a few points, these certainly are the best option atm but its still hardly cost effective).

Another thought i had was that perhaps they need a special rule, like being able to switch between HW+SH to whatever other weapon they have (representing the skill they surely should have as champions). Give them shields as standard but other weapons should still be a upgrade.

Neknoh
05-08-2007, 09:13
Ok, a Marauder with Lightarmour and Shield is 7 points, a Swordsman is 6, a swordsman has a smaller base, the abillity to take detatchments and fielda magic banner. . . that is quite a substantal difference for a model that's only one point less.

A Dark elf Spearman is 7 points, a High Elf spearman is 11, so, for 4 points more, he gets to fight in one more rank

Saurus are lower costed than warriors (11 points or so per Saurii I think), for that, you get as good a save, less initiative, but an extra attack, cold blooded and the abillity to use Spears. . . mymy.

Need I go on? You cannot compare across books, it simply doesn't work. As for Heavy Cav, the issue is NOT that they are underpriced in lists which create these all cav armies (Chaos and high Elves are the only ones I can think of actually, care to mention someone else? . . . and don't say Bretonnia, they are a problem on their own), but it is rather that their mainline infantry just isn't worth the points, Marauders have huge bases, High Elf Spearmen are too expensive, Chaos Warriors are too expensive.

Comparing across books
Just
Doesn't
Work

Malorian
05-08-2007, 09:30
I know some people actually like that marauders have a bigger base because they need less of them to block LOS to the warriors behind. But that's not to the point of the post.

Although you can't compare across army books completely, you can still compare if you keep in mind why the points are different. such as why is the bitting blade cheaper for ogres than for the empire? Because it's basically useless to them. Why can't they get an enchanted shield? Because they aren't suppose to be an army with high armor values.

So with this in mind we can compare lizadrmen to warriors. Both are suppose to be the core/elite combat unit for the army, both armies lack long-range shooting so they have the threat of benig shot at without deterent, and both are backed up by magic and super characters. So both of their roles are pretty much exactly the same.

And this is a perfect example, because when I statred fantasy and was looking at an army I loved the chaos idea and their lords, but I hated warriors. So I looked around and found exactly what I wanted in chaos in the lizadrmen and now have roughly 5000 points.

logan054
05-08-2007, 09:58
Well 6pts now, nice, i need to actually read the new book, i assumed they still costed 7pts, that my bad, still the chaos book was written when they did cost 7pts, the bases really make little difference with 7th ed, how many units are actually 6 wide now anyways? heavy cav? (and with maximizing you will still get them all in combat with either unit). I didnt however take into account for detachments but i wouldnt be two concerned by that.

Dark elfs, well, the massive points difference actually seems pretty justified to me, look at the difference, seems very fair and balanced to me (proving you can compare units from difference books, its not a exact science but you can make a judgment as to how well things are priced).

Saurus, well, never to sure on this, i think kinda balanced, i guess they get the extra attack cheap as they can use it for spears in the second rank, the other stats are heavly in the chaos warriors favor, they both have leadership rules (which are both very handy), its also only a difference of two points. Sure Sarus have spears, warriors have Halberds, great weapons, extra hand wepaons, chosen (even if thats a joke but still) hell slap in mark of khorne and you look at having up to 21 attacks from the front rank striking first and hitting on a 3s and still having a 5+ save in return. So again i think this overall proves you can look at other army books for a guide.

High elfs, well, yeah, they do suck for spearmen.

As i said i still think its more the issue with cav rather than infantry and generally infantry seems pretty balanced price wise (apart for my marauders now, damn you GW!), how many armies have i seen that are mounted, empire, dark elfs, chaos , brets ( :P ), tomb kings chariot hordes (well its no strictly cav but its none the less a pain in the ****!), high elves and i have seen some heavy cav vampire armies.

Maybe your right, maybe its the [rice of cav, maybe its the fact they are core? as i said, sure lowering chaos warriors price would fix one problem but then it would create another.

So as i said before i think you have few options

a) raise heavy cav slightly
b) remove them from core
c) give warriors some nifty rule

I have to say however i am just looking it this from the paper side of it rather than experience as i have only ever used khorne warriors but this is just the way i see it.

Malorian - glad to see someone sees what im getting at :)

Kerill
05-08-2007, 11:52
I'm not a 100% believer in the "can't compare across armies" stuff, you CAN compare, to some extent the army is costed as a whole but most problems of "cheese"come from undercosted units being used excessively (e.g. RAF, dryads, skink army of doom etc.)

Saurus are a lot better because their important stats are better (WS and I being the weakest stats). Spearelves are slightly overcosted for HE too but 15 S3 attacks in defence that can't be wiped out easily like a front rank can is worth quite a bit too.

Cavalry is too cheap now, compared to previous editions where it cost 4 times the cost of a basic trooper now they cost 2-3 times the cost of a foot trooper.

kyussinchains
05-08-2007, 12:01
personally I think giving them a free weapon upgrade (extra hand weapon, halberd or great weapon) with the option to buy a shield would go a long way, they would be worth it if they dropped the points to 12

@sun-tzu

the to hit chart was altered beween 3rd and 4th edition, there has been no change since then, it sucked in 3rd edition too, with the reliance on static CR and the reduction of casualties by the HW+Shield bonus, combat can already become a total slugfest, if you go back to 3rd edition, you'd never finish a combat, equal WS hitting on 5's??

The Anarchist
05-08-2007, 12:42
In the end I think the only way to fix them is to make the chaos armor standard (i mean look at the model) and chosen get +1 str instead of +1 save.

i think this is deffinatly a good idea, also might want to drop them by maybe a point (or two tops) i'am in the process of starting a chaos army, the only way i'am considering using Chaos Warriors is in 10 man units to back up my larger blocks of marauders.

logan054
05-08-2007, 13:41
I actually over looked that idea, it could help alot with chaos warriors, even +1 LDR would be great for chosen

W0lf
05-08-2007, 14:05
Maybe give them the mark of khorne for free???

:P

seriously though.. with the MoK they are viable. so why not something along the lines of the Khorne benefit for similar point?

Im still leaning towards +1 A and -1 I.

though a drop to 12 pts would be ******* sweet.

MarcoPollo
05-08-2007, 20:20
I think that a min unit size of 5 would be alot better. Then, people would be able to take them in detachment roles. And perhaps in increase in the mark of Tzeetch per unit.

Makaber
05-08-2007, 20:36
I'd say keep the points where they are for the standard guys, drop the points for chosen a little (probably only 1 point), and give them 4+ armour as standard.

It would give hand weapon and shield warriors a more clearly defined role as an anvil sort of unit, with a 2+ save. It would give the more offensive warriors a little more staying power.

I also like the point reduction and drop in Initiative. I5 seems a bit too much right now, it's even more than elves and I don't think it's fair that Warriors are best in everything.

Lord Tzeentch
05-08-2007, 21:34
Make them 13pts then you can give them shields as standard:) they would make a real come back.Additional hand weapons at plus 4pts overall 2pt cheaper. To drop the I to 4 is silly their ment to be stronger and faster than normal men.

theunwantedbeing
05-08-2007, 21:40
I don't think it's fair that Warriors are best in everything.


Thats sortof the point in being a chaos warrior,your faster,stronger and tougher than prettymuch everyone else is ever going to be.
Which makes you wonder why they got one measly attack each.....
(of course this is to allow chosen to be noticably better than regular chaos warriors,but thats a poor reason and effectively ruined them as troops).

Exalted Scar-vet
06-08-2007, 04:58
Its a shame they arent good. Chaos warriors are what drew me to playing choas. They are totally amazing models :)

now GW needs to make them playable

Von Wibble
06-08-2007, 12:58
Currently my chos opponent and I have been looking at changes for a lot of the chaos list (actually make it chaotic and not dull like it is atm!)

Our chaos warrior

Stats - as before with 2A as standard.

Cost - 12pts. Chosen don't exist as such.

Shields increased to 3pts per model. Option for chaos armour at 2pts. Shields are very expensive since otherwise khornate warriors with shields are just ridiculous, and because of the strong synergy with chaos armour.

Marks priced as before (though we have changed Nurgle to give 6+ regenerate and lowered cost to 20 - still being playtested)

A lot of people would say this is overpowering. But the simple fact is that even if you do cross list comparison, the fairest lists to use are the recent ones. Of these the closest units in percieved ability are in wood elf and dwarf lists.

Comparing naked chaos warrior to eternal guard - chaos warrior costs the same.

He gets +1S and T, but -1M and no stubborn. He gets more options but eternal guard fill a niche role in wood elf army and are therefore higher priced to account for it.

Comparing to Dwarf Elites.

Slightly more expensive. Has higher I, M, A and S (but elites get weaponmry to counter the latter). Has lower Ld and either lower save or no stubborn. Considering M isn't as crippling a penalty for dwarfs as it wuold be for any other army (it would be but for ther strong shooting and anvil movement, plus certain runic items...) this looks to be a fair enough comparison.

There aren't any other units that bear comparison yet - high elf and dark elf elites are known to be overpriced and to be updated.

The next reason for making the chaos warrior mighty in combat is that the chaos army has no shooting. The army will therefore face enemies that are at pretty much full strength having taken casualties. Since this is the case the chaos player plays at a theoretical disadvantage. So pts costs should be lowered slightly to compensate.

Finally the chaos warrior is a combaty unit in an army with access to several combat units. Daemons and bestigor can both take the same role as chaos warriors (if chariots knights and hounds are used as core). Therefore the chaos warrior should compete with these as a choice also.

Von Wibble
06-08-2007, 12:59
I also like the point reduction and drop in Initiative. I5 seems a bit too much right now, it's even more than elves and I don't think it's fair that Warriors are best in everything.

Elves have I5 and I6 on some troops. Chaos should be equal to them.

King Thurgun
06-08-2007, 13:27
Elves have I5 and I6 on some troops. Chaos should be equal to them.

Why on earth should chaos be equal to Elves in terms of speed? Chaos spend time being malnourished and mutated out on the chaos wastes, while elves have those crazy natural reflexes and spend hundreds of years training to be awesome at swordplay. Chaos Mortals are just humans. Their advantages over other mortals come from their gods, not from just being "so ******* awesome zomg!" Them having Initiative as high as Elf initiative doesn't really make sense. They're wearing massive, bulky armor: why are they fast? I say make them I3 and drop them to 12 points. For an army thats called "Hordes of Chaos", they usually come to games with fewer models than nearly every other army. Making them cheaper fixes this.

logan054
06-08-2007, 17:43
i dont see why it dosnt make sense, they are not just humans, they are champions of the chaos gods, its like saying empire heros shouldnt have I5 because they are just humans. Now, i think a chaos warrior gets plenty of training in the Chaos wastes, it isnt like they sit about having tea cakes all day. Also because they are wearing bulky armour dosnt automatically mean they should have higher I other wouldnt that be the same for elf cav in heavy armour, empire cav (and wouldnt the rules hae something along the lines of 5+ save -1I

Maybe its just the people you play, i have on many times out numbered my opponents many times with khorne lists and they certainly arnt marauder heavy.

gorenut
06-08-2007, 19:44
They should be given the tools to do what Chaos is meant to do, damage in close combat.

I think they should either come standard with 2 attacks or have some rule that atleast lets them re-roll their misses. I don't like the idea of a points drop while watering the models down. If 2 attacks is considered too much, force all Chaos warriors to pay for their shield. Yea, they will be a standard 15 pts now, but almost everyone I know takes shields already anyways. If you want to purchase additional hand weapons, you have to pay extra, that'll help balance it out. Yea, chosen get extreme amount of attacks now, but the chosen status seriously costs a lot, so I think it's justified.

W0lf
06-08-2007, 20:14
Heres a far out suggestion.

Chaos warrior biggest issue is that to generate good static combat res you need to pay through the **** for ranks and such.

How about a special rule that ether:

A: makes them proud warriors who arnt scared of facing serious odds. This means enemy units dont get +1 for outnumbereing.

B: makes them feared throughout the old world. The chaos warriors inspire fear int he enemy, to represent this they get +1 Cr as standard.

Both of these would really help i feel.

theunwantedbeing
06-08-2007, 20:19
Both chaos warriors and knights used to get free command groups to represent how great they were.

They just need 2 attacks as standard,drop chosen back to how it was in 5th by just being an armour upgrade.

Then they dont need big ranks,they are always outnumbered in the fluff anyway and always deemed to be uber death machines that can take on several men at once with ease.
2 attacks represents this nicely.

You just need to drop the +1 attack from the chosen ability as that makes chosen overpowered.

Tarliyn
06-08-2007, 23:13
Multiple people have posted wrong info in here about Suarus Warriors so I figured I would tell ya what they can do:

For 12 points a model they have 3WS, Hand/Shield, and a 6+ Save (5+ Counting Shield, 4+ Counting Hand Weapon and Shield CC bonus)

for 2 more points they can be unpgraded to spears.

So a saurus warrior with spears cost 14 points. And it sounds like a Saurus guy and a Chaos Warrior guy have similiar stats.

So it seems to me that they two troops are equal and priced this way to balance the army against the other armies. I am fairly certain GW has a system of some kind to price their units, just because we don't know what it is doesn't mean it isn't there, logical, and keeping the game equal for all armies.

Ninsaneja
06-08-2007, 23:40
@Tarliyn: I'm sorry, you forgot that Saurus have two attacks. It's an important feature.

Dead Man Walking
07-08-2007, 02:26
I really get tired of telling people that chaos warriors work in ranked up 20 man units. Of course knights work better at getting into combat but a knight unit does not have the staying power of 20 warriors.

It comes down to the general, a good general can make a block of warriors win on the table. I have never used warriors as flanking units because nobody I play is amateur enough to let me flank them. What do you do with 10 warriors that flank? You charge them and run off 150 points.

The Sword 88
07-08-2007, 04:16
I think getting rid of the 0-1 limit on Chosen would be a nice strt. Maybe make any Chosen after the first squad count as special or something.

But warriors without the extra armor and extra attack are just not that great and cost a heck of a lot..

I also agree taht all Chaos should get some sort of bonus in break tests. I mean come on these guys are not going to run cause they are out numbered and the enemy has 5 ranks even though the Warriors killed more of the enemy. That is just stupid.

Reducing their points cost to 12 or 13 seems goo at first but might make them a tad over powered but it would be an improvement.

gorenut
07-08-2007, 07:04
In all honesty, the real problem lies in how ranked troops at costed. The cheaper troops, there isn't a problem, but for elite infantry, it becomes a major issue because it becomes too expensive to get ranks. There should be a base cost for your initial unit. Then there should be a different (lower) pointcost for units in the back increasing additional ranks.

Von Wibble
07-08-2007, 13:45
Why on earth should chaos be equal to Elves in terms of speed? Chaos spend time being malnourished and mutated out on the chaos wastes, while elves have those crazy natural reflexes and spend hundreds of years training to be awesome at swordplay. Chaos Mortals are just humans. Their advantages over other mortals come from their gods, not from just being "so ******* awesome zomg!" Them having Initiative as high as Elf initiative doesn't really make sense. They're wearing massive, bulky armor: why are they fast? I say make them I3 and drop them to 12 points. For an army thats called "Hordes of Chaos", they usually come to games with fewer models than nearly every other army. Making them cheaper fixes this.

Chaos mortals are not just humans. They are humans blessed with supernatural fighting prowess given through their own experience ansd through their worship of the chaos gods. Also the blurb about the armour is nonsense as chaos armour is known to not impede movement in any way -it is effectively a second skin.

Hordes of Chaos - beasts, marauders, hounds.... I am usually outnumbered by my chaos opponent unless I use Empire.

I like wolf's idea but this further encourages flanking units rather than a centre of chaos warriors. My most regular opponent started a chaos army because of warriors and knights (really liked teh 4th edition knight models with lances - the only living gothic armoured unit). For him an army with 3 chaos warrior units, 2 knight units, marauders, few hounds and 2 chariots as a base wuold be the ideal to aim for.

Gorenut, you have hit the nail on the head. For a chaos warrior with a shield in current rules something like first 10 inc command cost 150, then +9 per model. Then 20 khornate warriors are below 300pts but 10 are nearly 200.

W0lf
07-08-2007, 14:52
I really get tired of telling people that chaos warriors work in ranked up 20 man units. Of course knights work better at getting into combat but a knight unit does not have the staying power of 20 warriors.

most combats in fanstasy last 1 or 2 rounds.

what do you deem staying power as???

And knights dont need staying power.. they charge a unit.. kill its front rank, recieve no attacks back, win combat, then etehr charge down the fleeing unit and kill it or stay in combat another turn and break it the next turn.

I finally get the core of whats wrong with warriors.

They need shields to be effective at taking hurt but also need another attack to be effective at dishing out hurt...

If we just gave them chaos armour standard or another attack they would no longer have such a issue.

itcamefromthedeep
07-08-2007, 15:03
In order to see more units of ranked Warriors of Chaos you would need to drop their cost. Their Initiative should by all rights drop as well. It does not HAVE to, strictly speaking, but there is absolutely no reason for having the initiative of an elf on a basic Warrior. Chaos is direct and brutal. They should not care about who strikes first. I could even see I3.

That's another vote for 12pts/model basic. Chosen should become Special, and cost a flat price for the unit (say, +60pts). This encourages larger units to bring the price/model down. A restriction that you cannot have more units of Chosen then basic Warriors sounds appropriate, making it analogous to the Longbeards rule.

There should remain a difference between Chosen and Warriors of Chaos, to maintain the smooth transition in the model's abilities (Marauder --> Warrior --> Chosen --> Aspiring Champion --> Exalted Champion --> Lord).

W0lf
07-08-2007, 15:09
12 pts per models is seeming very likely as our 'fix'

Tbh i dont see how this would make them overpowered as by all means the front rank are worth 20 pts a model. The others who are pure combat res are more like 8 pts per model.

It evens out.

Lord Tzeentch
07-08-2007, 15:22
TBH i just think they should have the same statline but cost 13pts and come with a shield. Tho i do think that they arn't really that bad. I mean Warriors of Chaos are ment to kill every thing but they arn't ment to be a common sight an thats why they cost a little bit extra. Tho with all the new army books coming out i do believe that they too will become a few points cheaper or have some very nice special rules.

blurred
07-08-2007, 18:00
I don't think a mere points drop would make chaos warriors much more viable. IMO the marks should give more abilities to justify their cost. Here are some easy fixes:

Mark of chaos undivided: 6+ ward save
Mark of Tzeentch: Some kind of prayer-like bound spell (possibly the 5+ ward save spell from Tzeentch's list)
Mark of Khorne: Additional hand weapons or halberds for free, no option for shields
Mark of Slaanesh: Movement 5
Mark of Nurgle: -1 to hit with missile weapons

These would either give them more durability, hitting power or movement: all of which they lack at the moment thus making them almost useless.

Gadhrain
07-08-2007, 18:02
We had a discussion about the chaos warrior problem a while back at my minute club. And basically warriors should/need 2A to be worthwhile.

What we in the end come up with was (pts/model needs tweeking though):

Chaos warrior, as is but with 2A.
- Champion is a chosen.
- Upgrade to chosen gives S5 and chaos armour.

Chaos knights, as is but with 2A, S4.
- Champion is a chosen.
- Upgrade to chosen gives S5 and chaos armour.

Would give a natural "order of things" with S5 and chaos armour marking the chosen.

We had some issues though:
-First we thought that the S4 knights would be to bad but with 2A and then with a lower cost they will still work.
-Possibly S7 on chosen warriors on foot will be a pain but again, cost can balance it. A possibility would be to remove the great weapon option from warriors on foot (they still have halberds).
-Should non chosen be able to buy chaos armour? They do have heck of a lot of armour and it's no puny see through normal human armour we are talking about...:)

logan054
07-08-2007, 18:23
I liked the idea of ignoring out number bonus, would surely make a difference.

W0lf
07-08-2007, 18:43
I liked the idea of ignoring out number bonus, would surely make a difference.

so do i.

Who was it that suggested that brilliant idea?

Oh it was me :P

Putty
07-08-2007, 19:16
I don't think a mere points drop would make chaos warriors much more viable. IMO the marks should give more abilities to justify their cost. Here are some easy fixes:

Mark of chaos undivided: 6+ ward save
Mark of Tzeentch: Some kind of prayer-like bound spell (possibly the 5+ ward save spell from Tzeentch's list)
Mark of Khorne: Additional hand weapons or halberds for free, no option for shields
Mark of Slaanesh: Movement 5
Mark of Nurgle: -1 to hit with missile weapons

These would either give them more durability, hitting power or movement: all of which they lack at the moment thus making them almost useless.

I'm thinking more along the lines of:

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Stubborn (or just change the entire mark to Unbreakable)

Mark of Tzeentch: B2B opponent models takes Initiative test. Failing means they strike last.

Mark of Khorne: Additional hand weapons or halberds for free, shields cost 4 points.

Mark of Slaanesh: Movement 5 or enemy unit suffers -1 Ld when in combat with a MoS unit.

Mark of Nurgle: B2B opponent models take Toughness test before combat rolls. Failing means enemy models fight with half toughness to their stat. (might be abit too good though, your original -1 against missile seems more balanced.)

This being said... it'll be great to bring down the points of rather expensive units like Warriors between 10 - 12 points and make Marks more expensive. Since Undivided is free, replacing the reroll feature to Unbreakable might encourage more players to field more units of Undivided Warriors instead of Khorne units which are more expensive (+ 60 points for the unit instead?)

Or let the Warrior's pointage stay the same but let them have + 2 A, -1 I as base and Unbreakable if they take the Undivided Mark.

LoL... I kinda realised that all this is pretty much wishful thinking, since they will not redo the Chaos Army book in another 3 - 4 years...

W0lf
07-08-2007, 19:24
Mark of Tzeentch: B2B opponent models takes Initiative test. Failing means they strike last.

suprise suprise... Tzeentch gets shafted with the crap ability...

They are I5... most enemies strike last against them anyway...

oh and unbreakable warrior is majorly over powering.

The only reason they suck is because they lose combat and flee.

logan054
07-08-2007, 21:07
I'm thinking more along the lines of:

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Stubborn (or just change the entire mark to Unbreakable)
- yeah i had thought about saying stubborn but then this would nerf the use of the helm of many eyes, still a good idea

Mark of Tzeentch: B2B opponent models takes Initiative test. Failing means they strike last.
- Marks no sense what so ever, how about making the champion a lvl1 wizard? would seem to fit and considering the price of warriors you wont see that many anyways.

Mark of Khorne: Additional hand weapons or halberds for free, shields cost 4 points.
- I take it they lose frenzy then and thus are nurfed heavily, now khorne arnt a viable option.

Mark of Slaanesh: Movement 5 or enemy unit suffers -1 Ld when in combat with a MoS unit.
- This actually wont help them win combat as they still cost a arm and leg and cant generate enough combat res

Mark of Nurgle: B2B opponent models take Toughness test before combat rolls. Failing means enemy models fight with half toughness to their stat. (might be abit too good though, your original -1 against missile seems more balanced.)
- How about cloud of flies? seem far more balanced to me and makes alot of sense

This being said... it'll be great to bring down the points of rather expensive units like Warriors between 10 - 12 points and make Marks more expensive. Since Undivided is free, replacing the reroll feature to Unbreakable might encourage more players to field more units of Undivided Warriors instead of Khorne units which are more expensive (+ 60 points for the unit instead?)
- well i think 12/13 would be fair, if you make marks more expensive then that kinda makes making the models cheaper redundant

Or let the Warrior's pointage stay the same but let them have + 2 A, -1 I as base and Unbreakable if they take the Undivided Mark.
- You know i think the ravening hordes list was actually better than the mortal list in the army book. Why did they drop marauder chariots anyways!

LoL... I kinda realised that all this is pretty much wishful thinking, since they will not redo the Chaos Army book in another 3 - 4 years...
- i doubt it will be that long, Chaos is GW baby, id give a year or two, i guess the other option is to actually redo the chaos book on warsheer :) failing that maybe GW want to give me a job making a new army for chaos :)

Putty
08-08-2007, 02:42
Looking back at the posts that suggest tweaking the Marks, it dawned on to me that modding the Marks would cause the entire Chaos army to be too powerful. Primary that is because many of the often used Chaos units already are embedded with their own passive abilities.

Allowing situational ability additions depending on which Mark the unit gets (eg. If Warriors choose Undivided Mark, they get xxx ontop of Mark's base bonus) is a system GW will not devise.

Hence retropectively, Warriors need to be tweaked itself (not the whole army).

Giving them stubborn, reducing their cost to 12 - 13 (or even less... 11?), shields are base, + 1 A, - 1 I would make them a very viable option (would help gw sell more warrior models also *sarcastic laughter*)

Like someone said earlier, the transitional point curve between marauders and warriors is too much a big jump, maybe likewise between knights and marauders on horseback.

13 - 33

5 - 14

But since knights are so effective, why fix something that's not broken? So I guess it is all about tweaking the warrior then.

I would be abit cautious about giving warriors + 1 A for base stat. That would mean a 3 A core unit if you take MoK or 4 A if dual hand weapon equipped. It might scream beardy.

Finnigan2004
08-08-2007, 03:15
Personally, I do not think this is particularly a problem specific to chaos warrriors, but to high cost infantry in general. I think that the problem needs to be solved by a points adjustment combined with some way of making the infantry more damaging in combat. Chaos warriors suffer because they cost too much and rarely get the charge. The cost of warriors makes them surprisingly fragile. You won't win combat with warriors based on CR, if the unit is less than 300 points. Lack of static CR means that you need to win by killing enemy models. The problem is that since the warriors will usually be taking the charge, they don't usually get many attacks back. This usually means they are not worth taking other elements of the chaos army are plain better at winning combats; and other than Tzeentch marked units, that is all that chaos warriors really contribute to an army effectively.

I think that there are two ways to go about fixing this problem for high cost infantryl. One way is to recost elite units and give them the ability to hit back through special abilities, toughness, etc.-- this seems the likely route, if what we've seen with dryads and the rumoured high elf changes are true. The disadvantage of this approach is that there are difficulties balancing armies with "what's already out there" (hence the moans about dryads, high elves, etc.).

The other route (the road not taken) would be to have adjusted rules for charging and weapon skill in the previous rules. This is not a viable option because 7th ed just came out, and because it is probably easier to try to balance each book as it comes out than to make a rule that effects every army that is out there already.

Since we are talking specifically about chaos warriors, my suggestion would be that they be slightly reduced in cost or keep the same cost, marks be left unchanged (maybe some minor tinkering where there are problems-- for example, khornate warriors are getting charged and losing frenzy most of the time, so they keep frenzy if they lose combat), and they be given a rule similar to that of the black orcs "armed to da teef". There are lots of other suggestions here that could work, so the reason that I'm suggesting it is that it gives one more possiblity. To me, being a walking arsenal suits a chaos warrior. Let him carry a shield to repel missiles, an extra hand weapon to fight off enemies, and perhaps a halbred for tough opponents.

Hrogoff the Destructor
08-08-2007, 03:34
I don't think a mere points drop would make chaos warriors much more viable. IMO the marks should give more abilities to justify their cost. Here are some easy fixes:

Mark of chaos undivided: 6+ ward save
Mark of Tzeentch: Some kind of prayer-like bound spell (possibly the 5+ ward save spell from Tzeentch's list)
Mark of Khorne: Additional hand weapons or halberds for free, no option for shields
Mark of Slaanesh: Movement 5
Mark of Nurgle: -1 to hit with missile weapons

These would either give them more durability, hitting power or movement: all of which they lack at the moment thus making them almost useless.

I like these ideas. Very neat.

I personally think the only real thing they need is a point drop, however. The fact that they are more expensive pointwise than Black Orcs is just wrong. I also think it's weird that shields are cheaper than two hand weapons, especially considering that it is the better of the two options.

Chosen would stay as is, but in addition have +1 leadership.

kyussinchains
08-08-2007, 06:37
I was thinking last night about marks and how it would be nice to make them a bit more customisable, I think the marks should stay the same but you could buy extra abilities, at a point cost per model, chosen could have one for free.

tzeentch could have

coven - the warrior unit generates an extra dispel dice
firebrands - the warriors attacks become magical, flaming and armour piercing

khorne could have

martial pride - the warriors may re-roll missed hits in the first round of combat
fearless - the warriors are immune to fear and terror

slaanesh

serpentine grace - the warriors always strike in initiative order
boundless energy - the warriors pursue and overrun 3d6

nurgle

cloud of flies - as daemonic gift
filth ridden - warriors attacks are poisonous

whaddya reckon? it would bring the warriors in line with the saurus they are often compared to, make them a bit more interesting and flexible too.

giner
08-08-2007, 12:46
Nice idea kyussinchains, although that does leave something needed for Undivided. Maybe:

Counter attack: In the first round of combat every enemy attack that misses allows the Chaos warriors one extra attack (max extra attack amount of Chaos warriors in B2B). This could be before or after the enemy rolls to wound.
Glory of Chaos: the enemy must pass a leadership test of be unable to attack, enemies immune to psychology unaffected.

Also giving the champion the option a magic item like High Elves might be good if we get good magic weapons.

kyussinchains
08-08-2007, 19:07
I think undivided should be the meat and potatoes option, so I would leave them as they are, perhaps drop them a point and give them a free weapon upgrade to make them an attractive alternative

Hrogoff the Destructor
08-08-2007, 21:57
Very nice ideas, kyussinchain. Being able to purchase squads upgrades is a great idea. Yeah, many teams have them as talismans or magic items, but it would certainly be a cool and welcome addition.

soots
09-08-2007, 06:19
I must be playing a different game to all of yas because the Chaos Warriors I fight are pretty damn good and dont need a tweak.

What unit in the game is going to beat them without a hefty character in them?

Khornate chosen with 4 attacks each and extra dispel dice. Or make them immune to psychology. or reroll breaks etc.

Theyre fine as is, the chaos book is a strong book with the best unit blockers in the game (T5 unbreakable chaos spawn) and the most devastating melee units. You dont really need ranks or characters, (in a 2k game, even a aspiriin champ can be leader), dont need antimagic characters (so many +dispel dice things in list), just meat and potatos attacks.

My record stands at losing 24 zombies to them in one turn, and they didnt have any ranks.

logan054
09-08-2007, 06:54
Dont get me wrong, i still use my warriors, khorne as many have said are the only chaos warriors that work but they still arnt cost effective as they will rarely see more than one combat, hell i have beat a khorne mounted list with a warrior list (with some damn good tactics). At the end of the day a unit like yours screaming for a heavy cav charge that they cant take.