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Urgat
06-08-2007, 16:46
I could have posted that in the rule developement forum, but my goal here is not to provide rule modifications, an army list or whatever, because, quite frankly, who would care? People won't ever use anything I could write down, so it seems pretty useless. And I don't want to say "we should do this, we should do that, that's what I want" (even if I will probably write that somewhere, I'm not so good with words, so apologies for that), I'd rather have opinions and a discution. Sure, it will be fruitless in the end and just turn out to be a wishlist, but what the hell, I want to do it anyway. I'll let you decide if you want to bother adding your opinion, or let the topic sink in the depths of the forum, showing by doing so how worthless you believe it to be.

Alright, now the idea comes from the generaly wide opinion that now, compared to orcs, goblins are a poor choice, when they used to be nice. The main advantage of goblin is, and as always been, that they are cheap and provide for interesting and original troops, while the core "regular hurty troop" deal is left to their bigger cousins.

So first, I'd like to look at what could be added or changed w/o any real trouble. (note, the main point of my post is the common goblin units, so if you don't care about general rambling, just jump to IV))

I) The characters

i) heroes, warlords

If I want a cheap mounted goblin hero, for instance, why would the common goblins (sir Ward can say whatever he wants, removing the term "common" is just calling for trouble, imho. It has already done so regarding quite a few rules already) be the only ones to get a regular mount?
What I mean to say: I see 3 goblinoid subspecies available in the army book: the common gobs, the night gobs, the forest gobs. Handily enough, they all have a "species" specific mount. Wolf, squig, spider.
I ask you, why aren't regular spiders and squigs available to the heroes? One can argue that the regular squig would be, mostly, a silly choice, mainly because a hopper can't join units. Well, what if I want my hero to have a save bonus and a mount that cannot be killed? The spider can also be a nice alternative to the wolf, say, you want a goblin boss in your unit of troll, and don't want to mount him on a gigantic spider (larger base, can be killed separately, no additional save for the gob).
So, you want him mounted to let him keep up with the troll movement w/o slowing them down. Since you're already (most of the time, unless you want to charge out of the unit...) sacrifying any movement bonus you'd gain with the wolf, and since they cost the same, one would rather take a spider (poisoned attack). Let the gobs take the mounts their lesser lads can take. Orcs are not mandatorily assigned wyverns, afaik.

I believe it's a valid point, and I'll let others think about weither it is interesting to have a bigger regular common goblin mount -I believe the wolf charriot does just that - or weither squig-mounted characters should be able to join squig hopper units - that would make an already efficient unit maybe too powerful, but as it is, the character himself, on his own, is a silly choice save for the occasional brimstone bable thing or character killer trick. I don't consider that as a valid option, just as something to have fun with once in a while, when you don't care about the battle, really.

I'd say give us forest gob characters, but any common gob one will work as well, and my purpose here is not to create new unit rules.

ii) Shamans

I really have nothing much to say about them, they're good as they are, only a couple things, but they are just general comments:
1) why are the magic mushrooms magic items now? I don't mind in principe, but now, they reduce the number of items a night gob shaman can carry. Not a big one I believe.
2) not really "shaman" specific, but I'd like to see the "Power of the Waaagh!" rule applied to units of goblins as well (units of 30 gobs if they want, even though I consider this rule stupid, in fact, I consider the whole way they've set up the waaagh! magic completly unfluffy. What really seems as an advantage in the fluff is just a crazy addition of drawbacks in the rules).

forest gob shamans: see my comment about the heroes.

II) Night Goblins:

I don't have much to say about them, really. They have an awesome "cavalry" (squig hoppers), they have an excellent melee damage unit (squig hunters), and the fanatics and netters do give their basic unit very interesting tactical strenghts.

III) Forest goblins:

Well they have only one unit, but it rocks. It IS weak and stuff (heh, it's a light cavalry unit), but it gave me so many opportunities of setting up sneaky schemes I'm just too happy with them. What I'd want is a couple other units for them forest gobbos (well at least a unit of regular footgobs, they're the only reasonable opportunity to have a regular skirmisher unit imho), but as I said, here is not the place for that.

IV) Common Goblins:

Yeah, these guys are the problem, that's why I kept them for the end. No grip with the wolf riders (excepted the infamous switch between shield and light armour for light cavalry rule). Saddened by the lost of the 2 wolf charriots per special slots (but, really, it is justified. I would have kept it 2 per choice and downgraded their impacts to S4 or removed the scythe bonus, making them cheaper, but that's just me I suppose). The various artillery machines are nice (but there was really no reason to remove the doomdiver misfire table, simplification is a bull reason, they did keep that godforsaken fiasco table, right?).

Naaaah, it's the regular foot unit, the problem.
Why would YOU take a regular goblin unit? I see only one reason: the one handed weapon bonus with shield. Seems ok, makes them more viable, with a better Ld than night gobs. Then you compare it to night gobs with hand weapons (there's no more lack of minis for them than there are for reg goblins, remember, it's just that the new ones are marginally more difficult to convert) and netters (these guys are a must have, let's forget the fanatics, they're a whole different deal), and then, it really hurst. Netters provide the same save bonus, plus a -1 to wound. That makes a lot more night gobs that will survive. That 1 point difference in ld is long gone in combat resolution.
Result: you don't take regular gobs, you take night gobs (even with spear, they're still better, and, well, with netters, the spears are actually the best choice I think).

So this has got me thinking (to be honest, this whole big post all boils down to that: I wanted to discuss regular goblin units with you, the rest above is just because I took the opportunity to do so). I've browsed over all my older army books, read stuff, compared with other armies, and got a lot of silly ideas that I discarded ( crappy things like getting a free snot base per unit, or having one special/rare goblin choice turn 2 for 1 per unit of gobs, silly, bloated stuff, so to speak). The only idea I got that seemed rather good to me is a "theft" from the lizardmen (sorry, I will write some basic rule ideas there, but I couldn't explain myself otherwise), and basically came to me looking at drawings where trolls were towering in the middle of night gob units (but night gobs don't need them, so the idea is switched to regular gobs instead):

A unit of gob may take up to two trolls (whatever kind) positioned in the second rank. The trolls can fight as normal over the head of the gobs as if they were in the first rank, and so on, same rule as the kroxigors (I don't know if this still exists in the latest LM book btw). It doesn't make the unit cause fear, but it immunes it to fear, until the trolls are dead. The unit does not take stupidity tests (the troll being carried away by its little friends), but instead, when the unit rolls for a squabble, the trolls join the squabble (call that mimic rule or whatever, the reason is the same as no stupidity test, trolls will do the same as the gobs). Trolls being stronger and bigger than gobs, it results usually in dead or eaten gobs -> resolve it as the troll attacking the unit from the front, so 3 hits on 3+, 3 wounds on 2+ per trolls, during the mandatory movement phase (screw Ward's 1D6 S5 hits w/o save that he loves so much - and it's not any more complicated than the Fist of Gork spell). Or change that to 1D3 S5 hits per trolls if you like, dunno, seems to lennient though, and the no save thing is idiotic (why wold my units hit themself harder than they would hit the enemy?).

That would make the regular gob units an interesting choice without being over the top, I believe, and it fits well with the gobs imagery you can find in the army books.

V) Anything else?

Well the Waaagh! rule. Goblins don't beneficiate from it, +1 is not interesting at all, it's just a chance to have your smaller units (wolf riders) wiped from the table more easily. There's really no reason for the restriction for the gobs, just get rid of that. Alternatively, use unit strenght for it, not ranks (US10->+1, US15->+2, US20->+3). A howling wolf or a raging boar make as much noise as an orc or gob, and they're bound to go crazy if the whole army starts shouting (since it is what it all boils down to). Let the mounted units have a chance of benefiting from the rule, because, afaik, as soon as I'm fielding mounted units, I'm NOT declaring a waaagh, since I don't care so much for an additional D6 move on a mounted unit anyway, and I don't want to have my opponent see my units self-destruct w/o him doing anything (happened a few times to me when I was still trying the rule, and it never made me think "how that's so funny!", especially not when I took 6 wounds w/o saves on a unit of 5 savage big un's on boar.)

And, well, that's it. If you don't care about the rest, it's fine, the main point is to discuss how to make common goblins more useful. I don't mind if you completly disregard my idea and so on, I'd just like to know what could be done, what you'd think would be nice, and so on. I know, it's just one stupid unit in the end, but still, I happen to be fond of them, and I happen to think it is silly that what is supposed to be the core unit of most Waaagh! is never played.
And well, I apologize for the huge post, too.

Colonel Raijan
06-08-2007, 16:51
night goblins forever to summarise :p god I love fanatics

505
06-08-2007, 17:20
make gobbos interesting

fanatics, netters, squigs, and the doom diver what more do you need ;)

Urgat
06-08-2007, 17:25
That you read what I've posted if you want to answer? Bah, why did I bother with all that? :eyebrows:

dalakh
06-08-2007, 17:33
A unit of gob may take up to two trolls (whatever kind) positioned in the second rank. The trolls can fight as normal over the head of the gobs as if they were in the first rank, and so on, same rule as the kroxigors (I don't know if this still exists in the latest LM book btw). It doesn't make the unit cause fear, but it immunes it to fear, until the trolls are dead. The unit does not take stupidity tests (the troll being carried away by its little friends), but instead, when the unit rolls for a squabble, the trolls join the squabble (call that mimic rule or whatever, the reason is the same as no stupidity test, trolls will do the same as the gobs). Trolls being stronger and bigger than gobs, it results usually in dead or eaten gobs -> resolve it as the troll attacking the unit from the front, so 3 hits on 3+, 3 wounds on 2+ per trolls, during the mandatory movement phase (screw Ward's 1D6 S5 hits w/o save that he loves so much - and it's not any more complicated than the Fist of Gork spell). Or change that to 1D3 S5 hits per trolls if you like, dunno, seems to lennient though, and the no save thing is idiotic (why wold my units hit themself harder than they would hit the enemy?).

That would make the regular gob units an interesting choice without being over the top, I believe, and it fits well with the gobs imagery you can find in the army books.


Well, guess it's time for me to stop trolling and post something I think :D
Interesting idea you got there, the rule doesn't exist in the current Lizzies book, but I do remember the rule and it does add character and flavour IMHO. However, ignoring the rules for stupidity might be a little bit too good if this rule is ever going to happen. Perhaps leaves the stupidity there, or make something like an ability to re-roll failed stupidity test.
Just my two cents. Cheers ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
06-08-2007, 17:44
I'm not sure why they removed the krox mixing rule from lizardmen but what ever that reason was this similar idea is likely to fall down on the same principles. That said I'd have no problems fighting against it though, trolls might need a price hike as it'll effectively give trolls a rank bonus and outnumbering.

The magic and waagh rules need a bit of stream lining as far as I'm concerned. They simply don't work for certain army builds reducing choices unless you're making "just for fun" (read as: ineffective) lists.

Cavalry and goblins got a bit screwed over in the new book. Unnecessarily so in the case of cavalry and by too large a margin for goblins.

If the rules for Waagh and magic were altered slightly to improve goblins, and cavalry didn't get creamed the list would look much more well rounded.

Other than those alterations I don't think common goblins need any real options, you've effectively got 9 options one of which is a bit suspect (trolls). A more elite option for a single unit per goblin lord wouldn't hurt though, something similar to the hill goblins in the eccology article from white dwarf.

Da Black Gobbo
06-08-2007, 18:50
I think the idea of the Trolls in Gobs units is just great, you are right saying that nobody takes normal gobbo no good options, more pricey than normal gobs and have - 1 I and +1 to ld, i'm writing a "house made" Night goblin army" and i was thinking to do when i finish the testing of the night gobbo army to do a normal gob one. I wrote right here but nobody answers, i'd like to know what do you think about my ideas.

Now talking about your thoughts it seems that GW don't think sometimes when doing armies, why the hell they created a unit that nobody uses? because they are middle way from Night gobbos and Orcs and they are worse than the 2 sides, anyways i think Wolfriders shouldn't get waagh bonus, (god they move so fast so a movement increase will be overpower, anyways my wolfriders tend to get 6 in animosity tests so they always look like flying units). Hope GW think anything good for the regular gobs that make them a good choice.

itcamefromthedeep
06-08-2007, 19:19
All you need to do is combine Common Goblins with other units. If you have a unit of Night Goblins on either side they might as well have fanatics. If you want to hold an enemy unit up for a turn so you can countercharge, you will want the save bonus. If anyone nearby breaks, you will want that Leadership. If you need to take a fear test to charge, you will want that Leadership. If you take a lot of shooting casualties (less likely with more armor), then that Leadership might really come in handy. If you just want a unit that can countercharge, then Common Goblins with shields are the better choice.

That save bonus matters a lot. It helps them survive against S3 hits, which will butcher Night Goblin spearmen and archers. Netters help, most of the time, against some close combat attacks. Anything that hits them at range will ignore. S6 close combat attacks make netters a liability. For the cost of 9 goblins, netters are okay but not great. It is a fair trade, in my opinion.

Fanatics are fun, but there are a fair number of armies that they simply do not work against (High Elves with Eagles, anyone with scouts, anyone with fast cavalry, Vampire Counts, etc.).

Bregalad
06-08-2007, 23:20
Use non-GW Goblins to beef up your units:
1.) Gamezone: http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/index.php/cat/c48_Orcs---Goblins.html
2.) Rackham: http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/liste_familles.cfm?type=normal&num=12&code_lg=lg_us
(the Confrontation Samurai Goblins are my favorites :))

Urgat
07-08-2007, 01:03
S6 close combat attacks make netters a liability.

Still more useful than a 4+ save (4+ save against S6 -> no save, makes no difference). S5 and under, netters become better. Since S6 (but these are rare, really) negates both netters and saves, it makes netters better in melee, without question (S5 -> save at 6+ for common gobs, against netters -> S4 wound on 3+ instead of 2+, so 1 out of 6 chances to save versus 2 chances out of 6 not to be wounded).
I agree that the shooting gives an advantage to common gobs ( 5+ save is better than 6+, that's for sure), but gob units all suck up shooting damage through numbers, it's never really been a pb, you don't have combat resolutions, and the 25% is not easy to get (unless you take 20 gobs in the unit, but no serious goblin player will do that).
If I want to countercharge, I take a unit that hits, not one that holds better. You don't take common gobs for that, you take, dunno, squig hunters (again, night goblins).
No strategy will work better with a common goblin unit, that's a sad fact.

Dalakh: ignoring the stupidity test was really because I wanted to avoid to tests at the start of the turn for one unit (from the top of my head, I can't find any unit that suffers from that, I may be wrong though). That's why I added casualties if the player rolls a squabble result instead. The reasoning behind the idea of the trolls is that it makes the unit more able in doing damage, while being in no way any harder to break (same ld and so on) if you disregard casualties (and two trolls are not known to win combat by themsleves, at least, not mine). Additionally, it costs about the same as a fanatic addon for night gobs (which seems balanced) and even with netters if you decide to take stone/river trolls (which makes a lot of points rather easy to break, to boot).

Then again, you're probably right with the lack of severity of the squabble rule. I'm playing with rather understanding people, I will see if I can playtest that, because this idea is growing on me, it doesn't make night gob units any less attractive, it doesn't make common goblin units terribly powerful (I mean, it's just two trolls, you even lose 2 US points taking them), and they should actually work well together (night gobs entangle with the nets, trolls provide the hitting that -may- make the gobs win).

Anyway, I was hopping people would offer other ideas, because that troll thing is only because, after all my brainstorming, I just couldn't find anything better.

Da Black Gobbo:
I rarely check the rule dev forum, but I'll have a look. But it sounds like you've tailored a new army, and I am not sure this has ever been really popular, new units and things, it's just too difficult to make people admit said army could be balanced (and I suppose I'd agree with them). I'll check it anyway.

Omegakai
07-08-2007, 01:36
Goblins are fine :/ i like them. but if i was going to change anything.
id make it that you could up grade a unit to have a troll in it (like the old rules for lizdarmen) each type getting a specific type of trolls.

common = common
night goblin = Stone troll
Forest = river troll .

oh how i can dream.

Crazy Harborc
07-08-2007, 02:11
Two NG units, with 3 fanatics in each. Oh, make the units 40-50 bodies each with spears. Maybe another 30-40 NGs with bows plus 3 fanatics. I don't bother with unit bosses, just a standard and a musician.

Two, three 10 each units of Spider riders spears, bows and shields, musician and standard. Heck, they can walk/run up walls.:evilgrin: Wolf riders, loaded with bows and spears, musician and standard. I leave them at a 5+ save. The fast cav perks are worth more to me than the 4+ save is. Oh yeah, at least 12 WRs, usually I field 15/16.

Yes, the plain ol' Gobbos could use a little twik.

itcamefromthedeep
07-08-2007, 02:14
Netters are not automatic. 1/6 of the time they not only fail to affect the enemy they mess up your own unit, which is hardly an insignificant percentage (just ask anyone with a cannon).


Still more useful than a 4+ save (4+ save against S6 -> no save, makes no difference). S5 and under, netters become better.

casualty rates per hit
Common Gobs Night Gobs w shields
S6+ 180/216 180/216
S5 150/216 130/216
S4 96/216 80/216
S3 54/216 52/216
S2 36/216 28/216

At S6+ and S3, the savings in casualties are marginal, which means that you are left messing yourself up. A fair trade in close combat, really. That just leaves the Common gobs with their advantage against shooting and better Leadership.


gob units all suck up shooting damage through numbers, it's never really been a pb, you don't have combat resolutions, and the 25% is not easy to get (unless you take 20 gobs in the unit, but no serious goblin player will do that).

I don't know where you game, but where I come from Goblins take Panic tests fairly regularly. Whether it's Flames of the Phoenix or a Mortar or Leadbelchers or Salamanders or a Machinegun spell, it is not all that difficult to kill 8 or more models a turn with shooting or magic. Inlcude Fear, Terror, other fleeing Goblins, and Leadership is hardly unimportant.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-08-2007, 07:05
Considering leadership is traditionally the major downfall of goblin troops, that one point increase can be rather significant and just explaining it away with that CR will make it ineffective anyway is much to easy.

You could similar claim that netter just will mess up there own units and so are worthless, or that fanatics always kill a lot of orcs and are expensive etc.

The extra leadership could be quite important, especially in actually getting the gobbos to do what you want against fear causers, and there are a lot of those out there.

Urgat
07-08-2007, 10:55
Dunno about you, but don't you just fix the nigh gobs Ld pb by just having the general close by to begin with?

ItCameFromTheDeep: well, I've never played an empire player (there's none here, not my fault :p), but I face a DE player, and he usually shoots at everything but my goblins.
Nyway, you seem to forget that night gobs can take 1h weapons+shields too. Doesn't help the shooting, but takes their save to +5 in melee.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-08-2007, 11:26
But you can only fit so much into range of the general, and he won't always be around whenever you might need him. He could be dead, fleeing or just plain elsewhere.


And I find that the difference between a 4+ save and a 5+ save is quite big in actual gameplay. NGs can even the odds with there nets, but they do run the risk of fouling up.

Urgat
07-08-2007, 11:49
Yeah, but everything (especially in the current rules) has a chance to screw up spectacularly. Ok, let's just put it another way: You're an O&G player right? If you happen to have fielded "foot" goblins recently, which kind were they? Wether it's for fanatics or anything else, which one, just tell me :)
Better: has ANYONE reading this thread fielded common goblins lately?
I think I already know the answer. And Why? Because night gobs are more interesting. The fanatics by themselves (weitheer you take them or not is irrelevant, the threat alone is 3/4 of their effectiveness) warrant night gobs taken over common gobs (and then you can secretly laugh at your opponent wasting a whole shooting phase firing at night gobs that carry no fanatics).

Fredmans
07-08-2007, 12:01
Use non-GW Goblins to beef up your units:
1.) Gamezone: http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/index.php/cat/c48_Orcs---Goblins.html
2.) Rackham: http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/liste_familles.cfm?type=normal&num=12&code_lg=lg_us
(the Confrontation Samurai Goblins are my favorites :))

I use them (Ashigaru Goblins) as "Black Gobbos", not as feared as their bigger cousins, but just as characterful - Elite Gobbos. I love it when they squabble away a Waagh, they are far better at infighting than regular fighting. I wish they were as deadly against my enemies.:D

/Fredmans

Shimmergloom
07-08-2007, 12:04
commons can be easily fixed. Just let them start with shields instead of lt armor.

Other than that the only thing commons might need over night goblins is the ability to get +2 rank waaagh! bonus instead of +1 that night goblins would get.

Other changes would be things that the game in general should have changed. All units should start paying for equipment upgrades in bundles like nets for night goblins is done.

And all units need cheaper champions. If champs are going to have such through the roof prices that so many of them have, then at least let them main rules for champions say they all have magical weapons or are -1 to hit while in a challenge or something.


Better: has ANYONE reading this thread fielded common goblins lately?

I have only fielded common foot goblins 1 time in 7th. They did nothing but fail 2 animosity tests and later flee in panic when a nearby night goblin unit broke from combat.

itcamefromthedeep
07-08-2007, 14:16
he usually shoots at everything but my goblins.

Good for him, that's probably smart. However, I would be surprised if you told me that you never had to use the unit's Leadership value. Even if it is just for rallying (which could easily put the unit beyond the general's influence), Leadership matters.


Nyway, you seem to forget that night gobs can take 1h weapons+shields too.

Things are not always as they seem. Oh, I included that as well. It's the only reason why the comparison was fair. Those gobs are are a little cheaper then common gobs with shields, but netters make that up almost exactly. For Night Goblin Spearmen, the numbers look more like this:

casualty rates per hit
Common Gobs vs Night Gobs w spears
S6 180/216 180/216
S5 150/216 150/216
S4 96/216 99/216
S3 54/216 65/216
S2 36/216 35/216

The casualty rates are virtually the same across the board, showing a slight disadvantage for Night Goblins at S3. Of course, the Night Goblins become the more expensive unit now, but they have more offensive power. A fair trade. Night Goblins are not the better choice in close combat. They pay for their ability to use Fanatics.

Shimmergloom
07-08-2007, 17:47
You don't have to give them fanatics.

The fanatic threat is potent enough on it's own.

I have had players several times stay clear of small night goblin units in fear of fanatics which saved the units from getting charged by things that would have really hurt them, when in reality they had no fanatics at all.

Meanwhile a unit of 30 goblins with shields and standard/mus is only 132pts. But is easy prey for a bret lance and nets them 232VPs. 30 night goblins with standard/mus and 2 fanatics 152pts, but will put a severe hurting on any lance that comes near it.

Now most people will do their best to draw out fanatics, which is why you wind up taking more night goblins or fast cav, not regular goblins.

You take more night goblins to either spread out your fanatics or put in false no fanatic units to draw in enemy fodder or more fast cav to counter their bait units before they can draw out your fanatics.

Common goblins are stuck in a role where they are just there for all goblin themed armies. Cause there is nothing they can do that night goblins can't do cheaper or orcs can't do for a modicum more points.

JackBurton01
08-08-2007, 01:03
I just take 15 trolls that makes them real interesting

Crazy Harborc
08-08-2007, 02:01
Hey now!!! Any of my opponents reading this thread!!?? Well just in case just ignore HackBurton01's comment.

15??? I hope not. Fortunately for me I do not know an opponent who has 15 trolls......Maybe as many as 6 is all I have seen on a battlefield.

Perceived fanatics can do wonders. Do NOT forget to have them with you say in the box, tray or bag the NG boys were in. I don't put them on the table edge. I leave the lid off of the carrying box the army comes out of. They are in that box just as they are when I do have them paid for in a unit.:D

itcamefromthedeep
08-08-2007, 04:45
The fanatic threat is potent enough on it's own.

The usefulness of Fanatics is entirely dependant upon the armies involved and the skill of the player fighting the Goblins. High Elves for instance are likely to field Eagles, which are incredible for drawing out Fanatics. Vampires can summon units within the 8" to draw out Fanatics, and anyone with scouts can laugh at the Fanatics from inside some woods. There are games where Fanatics are simply a waste of points. Less then a waste when they move back into your own line.


Meanwhile a unit of 30 goblins with shields and standard/mus is only 132pts. But is easy prey for a bret lance and nets them 232VPs. 30 night goblins with standard/mus and 2 fanatics 152pts, but will put a severe hurting on any lance that comes near it.

Common Gobs are not all that easy to break. Static resolution of 5 with a 4+ save aint bad. And yes, Brets might get hurt a bit (they still get a 5+ save and 5+ ward), but they are one of the armies where you rarely see good baiting units, making Fanatics most effective against them. A good 10/14 armies have commonly-used units excellent for baiting Fanatics. They just aren't that great.


You take more night goblins to either spread out your fanatics or put in false no fanatic units to draw in enemy fodder or more fast cav to counter their bait units before they can draw out your fanatics.

An opponent can bait Fanatics no matter who is there to countercharge. The unit is baiting fanatics man, it is by definition expendable.


Common goblins are stuck in a role where they are just there for all goblin themed armies. Cause there is nothing they can do that night goblins can't do cheaper or orcs can't do for a modicum more points.

:confused: Did... you... not... read the bit I did a page back about the Night Goblins NOT being better in close combat? Orcs hardly make Common Goblins obsolete, being at least 50% more expensive.

Common Goblins are a valid choice of unit.

Shimmergloom
08-08-2007, 04:59
6pt orcs are insanely more effective than 4pt goblins.

Both have the same save, orcs have higher WS, T, LD, +1S on turn 1, better Waaagh! movement, will ignore the panic from their goblin type fodder, don't fear elves(which are 20% of the 15 supported armies out there) and can generate power dice. There only downside is they would lose a dispel dice if 20 or more are fleeing in your opponents magic phase. How often will that even happen? My orc units tend to start at about 25 and so do the orcs from my several greenskin opponents. I can only think of one instance where it's happened to me.

For 2 more points. That is way more efficient use of points. If you want to save points you pay 3pts for throwaway night goblin units with no fanatics or nets. Or 40pts for a couple of snot bases. You don't use commons as fodder cause they are not as effective being fodder as night goblins. And if you're playing mixed armies, you're much better off sucking it up and paying a little more for orc units.

If you're going to talk about 50% more cost, well your 4pt goblin costs 33% more than a 3pt night goblin. So for that 1pt you get +1AS and +1LD and -1I. And no fanatic threat.

So again the only real place tactically for commons is if you are playing all goblins. Cause again there is nothing they can do fodderwise that night goblins can't do cheaper. And nothing they can do fighting wise that orcs can't do WAY better for 2 pts more.

Urgat
08-08-2007, 11:37
Orcs hardly make Common Goblins obsolete, being at least 50% more expensive.

There you can't be serious :eyebrows: (no need to repeat what Shimmergloom said)

Crazy Harborc
09-08-2007, 03:50
IMHO, IF, a gamer likes the looks of some minies or likes the stats or feels the minies fit his/her ideas of troops he/she wants to buy, paint and use.....THEN those troops ARE worth the money, time and points to that gamer.

JackBurton01
09-08-2007, 05:01
Crazy Harboc I used to have 25 of them before I realized The points were so High that I would only do use them in a 4,000 point list. I got them for 2 dollars a troll when BFSP came out on ebay. So I use 15 in 2250 all goblin army.

snurl
09-08-2007, 05:10
Thats a lot of trolls. What do you do about their stupidity?

JackBurton01
09-08-2007, 19:32
Snurl- I take a goblin boss on spider as my general and just have him stay behind the trolls so they can test off his leadership.

Crazy Harborc
10-08-2007, 01:09
Snurl- I take a goblin boss on spider as my general and just have him stay behind the trolls so they can test off his leadership.

I was just thinking about where to get some higher leadership close enough to overcome mass stupid results. That spider riding gob would do it.

JackBurton01
11-08-2007, 02:03
Crazy Harborc- put him in a unit of spider goblins and give him the best basha, and tricksy trinkent and you have a decent flanking unit