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muskrat
06-08-2007, 20:34
Didn't want to hijack the background question with this:

I'm starting to pull together ideas for a fan-based 40k Mercenaries Codex. I don't know if it's been done before, but there was some interested in the PMC/Paramilitary thread down in background. Basically, this thread is an appeal to ideas. Thing is, I can't think of anything but a few HQ's. My brain is frazzled right now, so if anyone wants to shout ideas at me, please do. I have these so far:

HQ:
Rogue Trader (special rules for good imperial equipment, represents Renegade Guard, =I=, etc)
Ork Warboss (what's the merc clan again? Also provides access to lootas, etc)
Kroot Master Shaper (Looted Tau tech, less limits on kroot equip0ment and forces)

I'm not adverse to using existing races or new races, so let your imagination run wild. Squats, Exodites, whatever. All I ask is that for any abstract or original ideas, please provide a bit of explanation or background as to what they are are, etc.

Thanks guys. hopefully I can get a rough draft of this ready to submit to Firebase by their next issue. I'm thinking doing it like BA, half per issue. Depending on how it turns out, I'm thinking of submitting it to GW.

Chaplain Mortez
06-08-2007, 20:46
I'd suggest taking a look at "Xeneology" because it has a wealth of background on some of the lesser-known races in 40k.

I'd also suggest that instead of an Ork Warboss, you should do a Freeboota Captin' because it would be more of a mercenary.

Dark Eldar lords or some other sell-sword may be a great addition.

For war gear, I would use a lot of alien artifacts. Maybe have some Necron weaponry available to characters? Or how about some kind of Kai gun (created by a race of slaves for chaos lords, it could be seen as being one of the original guns that they made before being conquered)? There are a lot of options available.

I'd also go the route of how the chaos book (current one) does things where depending on what you take for your HQ determines what is available to the rest of the army. Why would a Freeboota be leading a raiding party of Hruud?

Good luck!

Reabe
06-08-2007, 20:53
Rogue Space Marines (Non-chaos ones, just ones who have lost their faith in the Imperium due to some sort of Inquisitorial treachery or something), Ork Freebootas, Eldar Pirates and rogue humans/Imperial Guard (none Imperium ones) come to mind.

Kegluneq
06-08-2007, 20:56
Erm, not entirely sure how well those would work as your HQ choices - there's absolutely no way in hell that a Rogue Trader in good standing with the Inquisition would ever ally with an Ork, and vice versa. Perhaps if you were heavily limited by each choice? The Ork and Rogue Trader options could theoretically be done in existing army lists anyway though.

Whilst I like the idea of mercenary armies, I think the idea of having a huge mix of Imperial and non-Imperial forces is a bit of a non-starter, if you're going to have Rogue Traders - who aren't that rogue - and Inquisitorial troops as well. There's obviously fluff for colorful merc armies made up of many different races (like the one working for the renegade Tau in one of the 13th Legion books), but I think that they're best kept seperate to Imperial army lists.

To be constructive though -

The best thing to do is probably implement a doctrines system very similar to how the IG work now. Each alien race counts as a trait, as do options like Carapace Armour, Veteran troops, Mutations, Vehicles etc. This means you could easily make a personalised 'counts as..' army without having to reintroduce a load of old rules. Keep the overall power level to GEq levels, since most merc armies will be made up of human level soldiers. If you want to up the power level, do it in the elite section - perhaps your commander could have the odd Spyre Rig-equipped bodyguard, or an exotic 'pet'.

The most complex part will be working out points cost. With such a huge potential variety, balancing points is going to be a potential nightmare - I wouldn't hold out too much hope that a full list is ever going to be tournament-viable...

jkenealy
06-08-2007, 20:58
Yeah, Rogue Marines, like in the Uriel Ventris book Dead Sky, Black Sun. It would be cool to have a sort of mixed bunch, obviously not arch enemies together but rouge marines and eldar. Just an idea...
-John

Unclejo
06-08-2007, 21:01
Just have each HQ limit what troops are available: take a Freeboota Kaptin and your unable to take Eldar/Imperialy stuff. Sort of like the Warhammer Chaos lists where your general defines your army make-up.

muskrat
06-08-2007, 21:11
What I meant by the HQ's is precisely what was suggested- out of (more than other codici's) different options, you choose one, and maybe have a couple "general" ones. Which you choose determines what tech and how much you use. IE: a rogue inquisitor would still be able to bluff his way into inducting a couple guard units, but a rogue trader would have to recruit gangers, instead of actual military.

Freebottaz! That's what I was trying to remember. thanks!

As for the rest- Options like Hrud and Kroot would be severely limited- maybe 0-1 for Kroot hunters, to represent that they may be hired, but in order to fully use the extent of Hrud or Kroot tech, you'd have to use their HQ. Obviously, no one would be able to use Orks without a Freeboota, but occasionally a squad of Gretchin might be tempted/captured and forced to fight as meatshields for an unsavory type.

As for Imperials mixi9ng with aliens- this list would be for humans who are borderline or crossed the line defying the Imperium. Pirates, smugglers, etc. While you could make a list for just human units and maybe a couple kroot, renegade marines, etc, it would also be an option to have a human leading a band of killers, pirates, etc that are comprised of renegades and outcasts from all over. Mercenaries are sometimes mercenaries because they don't recognize the authority of their government.

Why would they follow said govt's rules and superstitions if they don't support it?

As for tournaments and super balance- I've never played in a tournament in my life, and don't plan to. :D

Arcanus
06-08-2007, 21:18
Well you need some Renegade Guard, maybe Rogue inquisitors/psykers, and bounty hunters. I'm willing to write some fluff to tie it all together as I said in the other thread.

Arcanus
06-08-2007, 21:28
Also, I say it should be sectioned off into parts and you can't make combinations between them. To separate the humans and xenos and xenos from differents types of xenos. So each race has it's own section.

Edit: I was thinking and for extremely exotic weapons there should be Necromunda style ammo rolls.

keatsmeister
06-08-2007, 21:36
Not a new idea, but certainly be glad to see what you come up with.

Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87162)'s the last attempt I made at this. Needed a little more fine tuning I think, but to be honest, I wanted to concentrate more on the unique units rather than the base lists, as the whole idea of mercenaries is you hire them to flesh out your own numbers, to do your dirty work (ie the particularly nasty crap and the dying), therefore many of the users would be adding Mercenary units to their own Codex army anyway.

There are rules around for a Tau renegade Stealth Team, using additional limbs, inspired by Eldar Warp Spiders, however I seem to have mislaid them somewhere...

Have a go at putting something together, and see what you come up with, as Mercenaries are a key point of the 40K universe that deserve a presence other than the somewhat half-baked Kroot Mercs...grrrr

Look forward to seeing your ideas

junglesnake
06-08-2007, 21:55
"Rogue Space Marines (Non-chaos ones, just ones who have lost their faith in the Imperium due to some sort of Inquisitorial treachery or something),"

Surely this is too much like the DA's "Fallen"? And slightly close to the Legion of the Damned. You could have groups of marines who are the last of a chapter - say a successor chapter that got wiped out down to the last squad or so. In an attempt to get back to Imperial controlled space they have had to inlist the help of some xenos etc.

To add to that you could have a sort of failed marine army. All marines have to pass tests to prove their loyalty to the emporer and their faith in the Imperium of man along with their ability to fight.

It is not concievable that some of these scouts or recruits do not make it as far as a marine. Some could take the rejection harder than others and having the skills drilled into them become hired guns. Others could have failed on mental terms due to strange anomelies, slight mutations or even strange side-effects to a rogue geneseed?

Otherwise I think rogue marines per-se would be a bit hard to do fluff wise. So marines without power armour maybe?

Puffin Magician
06-08-2007, 22:01
Don't forget Eldar Corsair Captains as an HQ, allowing you to use selected CW & DE forces. Void Dragon Phoenix? Yes please!

Be wary of adding too many minor races into the Codex, it might get cluttery. Perhaps a collective Merc statline [in addition to IG/Eldar/Kroot/Ork statlines] so people could use Nicassar, H'rud, Squats, or psychic hovering crystals should they choose to.

muskrat
06-08-2007, 22:03
The Fallen nor Legion of the Damned are not like that. At all.

As for strict seperation, I'm fearing that I (we?) would not be able to come up with enough different ideas. Look at the Kroot merc list. Kroot. Kroot with Bigger Kroot. Kroot with sniper rifles. Kroot with sniper rifles on lizards. Kroot with wings. Kroot with dog-like Kroot.

It can get repetitive.

I know it isn't a new idea, but it's one that always seemed missing from 40k to me.

Also- I don't like to think of mercs as the ones who are hired to "do the dyin" Just got back from a tour in sandland with a PMC... paid for by the US Govt. lol

Reabe
06-08-2007, 22:04
"Rogue Space Marines (Non-chaos ones, just ones who have lost their faith in the Imperium due to some sort of Inquisitorial treachery or something),"

Surely this is too much like the DA's "Fallen"?

Nope. Perfectible feasible according to that Renegade Space Marines article in White Dwarf a year back or so.

There's a "Damn Company" of Lord someone or another, their colour is purple if I remember correctly, which does non-Chaos mercenary work.

Unclejo
06-08-2007, 22:15
Nope. Perfectible feasible according to that Renegade Space Marines article in White Dwarf a year back or so.

There's a "Damn Company" of Lord someone or another, their colour is purple if I remember correctly, which does non-Chaos mercenary work.

The Damned Company of Lord Caustos, if memory serves.

On Orks: in older background, Blood axes used to fight alongside Imperials as mercenaries. Has this idea been abandonded?

muskrat
06-08-2007, 22:23
Damned company of Lord Caustos. I thought they were Chaos. didn't know they were just mercs.

Anyway, a point I forgot in the first post- this list is meant to be used peace meal, not as a whole. They are allies, and should rarely be used without another army. That said, I was thinking that in order to use them, a force must first choose the hq. then it opens up options to that specific HQ's list of units, wargear.

Example- Guard player takes a Eldar Corsair Pilot. This enables that guard to take merc jetbikes/storm guardian/lizard riders/etc Those aren't final ideas, just things that popped into my head. But, it could also, like Kroot Mercenaries, not feature any other army at all- however it will suffer from some pretty extreme drawbacks (Kroot, for example, will be used directly from chapter approved, which has very little tank hunting ability)

As a rough outline:
Human mercs- the most balanced of the bunch, with VERY limited access to select other races. GEQ and lower, with very few "hard" units such as space marines. High firepower.
Ork Freebootas- As a change of pace- lootas. Select access to other race's tanks and equipment, resulting in much mechanization. however, like regular orks, they are not in the best condition.
Eldar Pirates- Close combat-ey, hit and run specialists. As opposed to the Ork armored fury type war, they are lightning strike- get in and out, but falter in prolonged engagements. Uses exodites and pirates
Kroot Mercs- As CA, but with differences. generic alien merc unit added, to represent Hrud, etc. Uses the most varied force, but with common weakness- little tankbusting.
Tau Renegades- still in the drawing board.

Kegluneq
06-08-2007, 22:39
Tau Renegades- still in the drawing board.
Well, there are Tau renegade rules already (O'Shovah). For a bit of flavour, you could try building on the suggestion in the last Tau codex that Necromunda Spyre Rigs are of Tau origin - perhaps by having Gue'la equipped with close combat variants...

Moriarty
06-08-2007, 22:54
Food for thought:

Mercenaries (Fictional)

The Magnificent Seven

The Dirty Dozen

The Wild Bunch

Dogs of War

The Wild Geese

Falkenburgs Legion

Hammers Slammers

Dorsai

The A Team

Yojimbo

Can be categorised as
the lone wolf Independant Character
the commando elite Scouts, Infiltrate/Deep Strike
training cadre Platoon Command Squads
technological support Heavy Weapons Squads
field forces IG Army

40k races likely to be found as Mercenaries
Kroot
Ork Freebooterz/Blood Axe Clan (gitz)
Eldar Pirates/Dark Eldar
Squats
Rogue Space Marines
Cut off/abandoned IG
Human pirates

Likely hirers of Mercenaries
PDF
Inquisitors
Tau
Orks

muskrat
06-08-2007, 23:00
Thanks for all that info Moriarity!

As for the spyrers being Tau- I was planning on making them hireable by humans...but Tau would fit too. Need a "system" for Tau...I don't want to make them too close to their original forms and have them mobile battlesuit fighters who cant fight...

I may scrap them altogether, or take what i have for Kroot and apply it to them, leaving Kroot with their CA article.

Ambull
07-08-2007, 01:26
I think you should try to find a copy of the old Ork book, "Freebooterz." It had a wealth of information about different types of Orkish mercenary, including outcast meks and doks leading mobs of heavily-kustomized dreadnoughts. You might also want to check out "'Ere We Go!" which details the relationship between Blood Axe Orks and the Imperium. If you want more details, I can post more in-thread or follow-up via PM.

I think you should include feral Ogryns as well, since they're fairly gullible and willing to fight for anybody. You could use the chapter-approved abhumans doctrine rules or the Imperial Armour 5 berserker rules (although I'm not familiar with those).

Are you also thinking of doing "Regiments of Renown"-type units, maybe with named characters that can only be taken by certain forces? Maybe this would be a good way to integrate The Damned Company of Lord Caustos or Kaptin Badrukk's Flash Gitz.

spacemonkey
07-08-2007, 01:54
Tallarian (sp?) Dog Soldiers, who made a brief appereance in Kill Team by Gav Thorpe and had a small head picture in the 3rd edition rule book, have always struck me as good mercenary units and by the description in the book are easily GEQs.

Also, I think since the mercs are meant to be used piece meal it would be better to be able to choose any one unit from the available Troops selections (since most FOCs have abundance of these slots) and then have to choose an HQ if the player wishes to use any any of the more specialized options (Elites, Fast Attack, Hvy Support).

muskrat
07-08-2007, 04:21
thats a good idea space monkey, with the troops readily available. I was also trying to remember what other aliens were in that xenos report from 3rd ed. rulebook. Need to pick up a few books, I see.

As for 'Ere We Go and Freebootaz- I've never heard of either, so I think they're bit before my time. Probably near impossible to pick up too.

Arcanus
07-08-2007, 04:31
I have written some fluff for human mercs I have it in a word file if you want it Pm me.

vipernyc
07-08-2007, 04:39
I think regiments of renown are the way to go with this... I mean, you can do an eldar pirate force with the eldar codex, you can do ork freebooters with the ork codex, and you can do human pirates with one of the inqusitorial lists... 40K dogs of war would be better if it was like WFB dogs, a bunch of cool, characterful units that you can tack on to any army, or make one big army with.

muskrat
07-08-2007, 04:50
Both ways of doing it have their advantages...I might combine them- IE like space monkey said. Troops will be able to be tacked onto any army, but in order to use Fast Attack/Heavy Support or Elites, you have a take the HQ from that part of the list.

So in a guard army, you could hire an ork kaptan, an use some orky mercenary unit (im thinking some kind of light flyer, or piratey ship type tank, just for funs) and a human mercenary troops choices.

Arcanus
07-08-2007, 06:16
I just sent the PM pretty much it factions up the humans into three groups. The Veterans, mercs who can work with the Imperium and more importantly the Inquisition if need be. The Opprobrium, mercs who can't work with the Imperium but can work with anyone else. The Privateers, who may work with the Imperium on rare occasion.

Moriarty
07-08-2007, 06:49
'Freebooterz' has some information on Ork pirate units, but very few are more than copies of standard troop types from the Codex Orks or Feral Orks. Of some interest are:

Chaos Renegades, eg Stormboyz of Khorne

Ork/Genestealer Hybrids

Mutant Orks

Possessed Wierdboyz

Of course, not all armies would consider using these.

Well done, Ambul, for remembering the feral Ogryn. I'd forgotten them!

mistformsquirrel
07-08-2007, 07:35
I really like this idea honestly.

Here's my possible suggestion:

Have several "base units" from other races - but with no equipment; just the bare individuals. So you could get "Normal Humans" - Same as IG without equipment, "Space Marines" "Orks" etc...

*then* You have a gear table to equip your units.

Obviously, your general aught to put some limits on what you can take - but I very much like the idea of Eldar, Human, Squats all in a single pirate crew for instance.

Oo...

Just had a thought:

What if using the system I described, members of the same race as your HQ are Troops, while others are Elites?

Giving Bikes/Jetbikes or Jump Packs to infantry makes them Fast Attack.

Have some looted vehicles for Heavy Support based on your general's race.

I dunno just an idea. I love the concept!

Arcanus
07-08-2007, 07:41
I really like this idea honestly.

Here's my possible suggestion:

Have several "base units" from other races - but with no equipment; just the bare individuals. So you could get "Normal Humans" - Same as IG without equipment, "Space Marines" "Orks" etc...

*then* You have a gear table to equip your units.

Obviously, your general aught to put some limits on what you can take - but I very much like the idea of Eldar, Human, Squats all in a single pirate crew for instance.

Oo...

Just had a thought:

What if using the system I described, members of the same race as your HQ are Troops, while others are Elites?

Giving Bikes/Jetbikes or Jump Packs to infantry makes them Fast Attack.

Have some looted vehicles for Heavy Support based on your general's race.

I dunno just an idea. I love the concept!

I don't like it because I tend to prefer purist armies because with interacial armies it's hard to get a uniform look and alsothe fluff is very hard to write to justify it. Well the second reason only matters if you like to write fanfics about your armies as background.

mistformsquirrel
07-08-2007, 07:43
Eh? I love writing background stuff. That's actually why I'd prefer it frankly - it's far more interesting to me to have to figure out "Why" these groups are together than why a more obvious force is out fighting.

Thats just me though.

Arcanus
07-08-2007, 07:52
Eh? I love writing background stuff. That's actually why I'd prefer it frankly - it's far more interesting to me to have to figure out "Why" these groups are together than why a more obvious force is out fighting.

Thats just me though.

Well I think that's fun but after rereading it I'm always like "that wouldn't work why would the Inquisitors wear tinfoil hats to repel the greater daemon of khorne." Do you understand what I'm saying?

mistformsquirrel
07-08-2007, 07:54
Hrmm... I think you need to elaborate a bit. I think I *might* be catching what you mean, but I don't want to guess cause I may be totally wrong.

Arcanus
07-08-2007, 17:17
Hrmm... I think you need to elaborate a bit. I think I *might* be catching what you mean, but I don't want to guess cause I may be totally wrong.

I'm saying that whenever I try to do massive collarberation between humans and xenos I become very critical on my own works and from then on I say that doesn't make sense and I can ever write it in a way that I feel is 100% correct.

muskrat
07-08-2007, 20:38
I agree with mistform a little actually- my original idea was one list, with a horde of multiple races, new and old. what i DO like is his organization though...picking what a squad is armed with would make them hella customizable, but very hard to write set fluff on. Example:

Dave's Mercs Unit A- all armed with shotguns and those Elysian drop packs- great objective holders, these guys jump in, shoot stuff and jump back. Nice stories about Dave. Dave is the best.

Vanilla Merc Unit B- for the right points cost, Vanilla mercs could, althought not practical, all be armed with plasma rifles or something. for a bonus cost, maybe chem-inhalers. Suddenly they are drug addicted plasma freaks, led by Tom. Tom is cool, and the player writes his own fluff, but it's harder to 1. balance and 2. have any sort of fluff beyond "So there were these mercs, right? They did stuff."

Lots of ideas floating around, I like the support people are throwing in. for some reason I never got your pm though, arcanus. I like your plan for human mercs.

Maybe those "generic troop" types that any army can take would be mistform's...my mound of paper on this is growin, i may need a notebook.

El Presedente
07-08-2007, 20:55
Probably already been metioned but Blood Axe mercs should be in there, and sticking 'free company' in front of things gives it a cool sound (free company space marines for example) i got this from the merc from Medieval 2 in which units would disband to bring more money to their guild/country/army.

Dont forget Bounty Hunters, Assassins, Hitmen, Gunslingers and other such like agents.

Moriarty
07-08-2007, 21:52
More food for thought.

No thoughts on points values, yet.

Mercenaries can occupy the second HQ slot of a FOC. They can be:

Lone Wolf - Independant Character, can be General, giving Ld value to the army; Bodyguard, giving one of their wounds up if their 'principle' is wounded; or Hero, giving Shooting or Close Combat support to the army, but not necessarily at the time or place the army would chose.

Commando Elite - 12 figures or less in one squad. may have the Scout, Infiltrate or Deep Strike special rule. While the unit is still in play, it can be replaced with any squad/vehicle they rout/destroy as they are considered to use captured equipment to fulfil their mission.

Training Cadre - Five figure or less squad attached to two or more Troops choices. While the Cadre is still in play, their attached troops choices can use one IG Doctrine. All Troops choices must stay within IG Command Radius to benefit.

Technological Support - Counts as one (basic) Heavy Support choice from any Codex, or is a transport option vehicle which is attached to a unit allowing it the use of one CoD strategy.

Field Forces - IG Platoon without its Support squads, but with the option to substitute Special weapons for Heavy weapons.

All Mercenary races can only be used by those considered as 'compatable' Allies.

mistformsquirrel
08-08-2007, 01:26
I'm saying that whenever I try to do massive collarberation between humans and xenos I become very critical on my own works and from then on I say that doesn't make sense and I can ever write it in a way that I feel is 100% correct.

Ahh, yah I understand that completely. I get that way myself with alot of things.

The key I've found is to remember A) Do your best to make something plausible, and B) Remember that there are very few *absolutes* in the 40k universe. For one - not all humans are Imperial - thus allowing a possible pool of non-xenophobic humans. There's also the fact that the further from Terra you get, the more likely it is that people have had friendly contact with xenos 'on the sly' - they may not be completely comfortable with them, but they're not quite as rabid.

I guess the idea is - keep in mind that whilst overall humanity is very xenophobic, individual groups can be substantially less so. Same with the Eldar really, and even Orks. (Blood Axes if I recall right have even worked with Imperial commanders on occasion)

I totally know what you mean now though.

Muskrat - I think the key to avoiding things being too hard to balance, is that you make the Special Weapons from the weapon table cost as much as an upgrade in any other army. So sure - you could arm Tom's unit with plasma rifles and chem inhalers - it could be a REALLY cool modelling opportunity too... but on the other hand, Tom's unit is going to cost you 20-30 points a model at probably BS3, T3, 5+ save - so it'd be one of those very glass-cannon units. Not really unbalanced I'd say, especially when the rifles start overheating.

Nevertheless, it'd make it feasible to include one or two plasma guns in a unit, just not equipping the whole thing with em.

That's just my idea though <@_@> Glad you like the concept!

spacemonkey
08-08-2007, 02:54
Well, muskrat, what I was thinking this afternoon is one- how many units would be in the codex? (I'm thinking something like 4 different units per FOC selection maybe 5 for Troops) and two- flexible unit options are definately the way to go. For example, for an elites choice you could have a unit named say 'Brutes' which could have profile that would easily represent Feral Ogyrns, Big Mutants, or some muscle-bound xeno-form. The most flexible unit should be a Troops selection that can be used represent a whole slew of xeno units by first having a basic stat line. Then these units can select say two of say a dozen profile or weapon upgrades. Say for Hrud you can upgrade the unit with the Stealth USR and poisoned combat weapons, but for Tarellians (got around to looking up their spelling) you could take the Acute Senses USR and assault guns.

Mott
08-08-2007, 03:02
I'd suggest
- rogue trader elite hired bodyguards

stormtrooper EQ equiped with lasguns\autoguns\shotguns and the usual special weapon options

Hired gangers

Basically conscript platoons with infiltrate and can use ambush and trap rules similar to catachans
(gangers from that specific planet with knowledge of the terrein)

Kroots (see the kroot merc list excluding stuff like shaper councils and trackers\krootox)

elite hitmen
small units of infiltrating elites that can either be deadly sniper armed marksmen or fast\brutal close combat brawlers/

0-1 imperial guard heavy support choice vehicle
may take rhinos\chimeras but no upgrades other than basic weapon options.


some lil ideas, needless to say not a complete list

spacemonkey
08-08-2007, 03:49
Other units worth considering are: 1) some kind of rogue Mechanicus priest who can either grant access to or be accompanied by regular Servitors or Heavy Servitors (beefed up Strenght and Toughness along with Slow and Purposeful so they can fire those big guns on the move), 2) Eldar Pathfinders, and 3) some kind of psykers (say rogue human and a alien one).

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
08-08-2007, 04:18
personally I always thought their should of been two codices like "dogs of war" for 40k... a rogue trader style one and a chaos xenos/latd style one.

spacemonkey
08-08-2007, 16:54
I think they could fit in one codex. And another thought I had was that Tyranids and Necrons would be left out (as they're not exactly going to be able to 'hire' mercenaries), but then I reconsidered as Necrons might be accompanied by a crazy AdMech priest and hangers-on while Tyranids could presumably take some basic merc squads counting as Genestealer Hybrids.

muskrat
08-08-2007, 19:15
Having four seperate lists is, sad to say, a bit of a daunting task. I've decided, under good counsel, to make it more like the regiments of renown, with a few "basic" statline'd units that can allow for customization and generic units.

the RoR can be hired according to their own unit- ie, Free Company (:)) Space Marines Unit A will only work for Imperium Forces, as they retain their xenophobia, however, FCSM from a Lord Caustos' Damned Company type unit will work for anyone BUT Imperium- maybe Guard.

The generic units, in a bit of inspiration, will be determined by an HQ choice. Say you take an rogue ex-admech tech priest- he opens up new upgrade tables, including adding slow and purposeful, p-fists, more heavy guns, etc, in order to make servitors. Upgrades will be vast and sweeping- for a basic statline of a guardsmen, you could add +1 bs for X amount of points per model, or carapace armor.

All unit upgrades will be taken from codexes, but not directly. So, it's possible to make your Ork mercs all carry 'uge choppas and mega armor, but like mistform said, it will be quite expensive. and you got it right mistform, where I was going with Tom and his squad- it could be ALL p-guns in a squad, but their points cost wouldn't make it exactly prudent. However, with apocalypse coming, you still have the option of a bunch of Guardsmen walking around with bs 4 lascannons, and the points cost wouldn't be as bad. sure, you could get better for the points, but no one is holding a proverbial gun to your head.

Customization is the key, I cannot stress that point- it's my guiding point for the mercs. Also- adding certain upgrades will change where the unit is on the FoC. Adding jumppacks, or their equivilant, will move them to FA. Elites will have their own unit, which can be used as command squads, ie Chosen. A certain amount of heavy weapons or heavy armor, and they're HS.

Elites will have an improved statline, one that will be easy enough to make feral ogryns, big mutants, etc, or make a stormtrooper type unit.

The only problems I can see is that it can be daunting- but opening up certain loot tables closes others- Eldar HQ's will not have much access to Imperial equipment, etc. This hopefully can reduce the clutter.

In order to get certain cool rules, (such as that commando unit, I like the idea of a "hijacker" type unit.) you have to take the RoR.

C&C? I know it's very vague and that, but I'm starting to actually get a good direction I think. Also, I'm well aware that this idea can be abused heavily to create uber monster units of doom- but so can VDR, and the same rules apply. The points cost, and the general idea behind it should be prohibitive enough.

Unit VDR. Hm.

WallWeasels
08-08-2007, 19:19
Well I think a real Dogs of War 40k army would semi-ruin the look of the Imperium and most races in 40k. I know there are some nut-head xeno-lovers in the Imperium and such for other races, but GW is really heading towards that "everyone hates everyone" attitude. Even the Tau hate everyone :p Human auxiliaries? Not anymore. :x Just my two cents.

muskrat
08-08-2007, 19:25
....I hate this excuse, I really do.

But there's billions of worlds, and trillions of humans. Not counting everything else.

not everyone out there can hate everyone.

If you don't like that excuse, then here's one- my codex. GW can stick it up you know where...so nyeh! :)

alexon47
09-08-2007, 00:52
tyranid cultists, think about it, there people infected by the hive
for necrons, i would say some sort of crazed person from the adeptus mechanus.
guard, are your regular mercenaries.
space marines could have some sort of initiates, like scouts only different
tau have auxiliaries, and kroot
chaos?
witch hunters have thugs and goons for hire for more subtle aspects

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
09-08-2007, 01:13
well, its known theres whole chaos races out there like the terrifying Saruthi!

Chaplain Ark
09-08-2007, 01:42
the only thing i can say is your choice of races is limited. SM will never go merc, Eldar: the only ones you get are the Dark Eldar or the few rangers there are, Chaos just want to kill everyone, so it doesn't matter, Tryanid never stay in solid form for longer then a battle, and eveyone know the answer to the necron. unfortunatly, all i can say is intergrated troops. a squad of merc Guard with shotas, Boyz with Kroot rifles, and Kroot/FW with Lasguns. just try to mix, match random stuff from the Kroot, Ig, and ork together.

Or you can combine the troops. have a troop choice be a Merc squad: 5-20 Rengade Guard, 5-20 Kroot, 5-20 Boyz. gives em a large amount of men, shoting, and CC capabilities.

Ambull
09-08-2007, 01:46
Chaos should be able to take Loxatl (the lizards from the Sabbat Worlds Crusade/Gaunt's Ghosts series).

I really don't see how anyone can be against the idea of mercs in 40k. Even within the Imperium, there are plenty of worlds that lack the support of the Guard or the Marines due to simple logistics and more pressing concerns. When the local PDF isn't enough, it's entirely conceivable that an Imperial governor on some backwater world would be willing to empty the treasury to hire some Eldar corsairs or Blood Axes to deal with any threats (Of course, it's equally conceivable that these sellswords would turn on their employer after collecting payment, especially in the case of certain xenos). There's also the possibility that someone wouldn't want to be implicated in toppling a rival, and would therefore hire some sort of alien mercenaries to prey exclusively on that rival (think of corporate sabotage or establishing a trade monopoly) and deflect attention.

An Ordo Xenos Inquisitor may even hire alien mercenaries to achieve a certain objective outwardly, while secretly observing/studying the aliens' for strengths and weaknesses.

A bit of old school mercenary fluff and rules from "'Ere We Go!" (RT Ork book) detailed how the Imperium used to hire out Imperial Guard units to Blood Axe Orks to act as "advisors," usually in the guise of a free company or deserters/traitors. You could take squads of guardsmen and include an Imperial officer as a "pet" in the Warboss' retinue. The true purpose of these "advisors" was to gather intelligence and encourage the Blood Axes to make war with other Orks (not the most difficult of tasks) or other enemies of the Imperium.

A fluffy example from the opposite perspective involves how the Praetorian regiment employed Blood Axes as scouts prior to the Massacre at Big Toof River/Battle of Ork's Drift.

Think more along the lines of subtle machinations and plots like those in books such as Dune, rather than the usual (boring) "Imperium hates everybody" paradigm.

muskrat
09-08-2007, 01:52
Space Marines never go merc? WTF? Have you READ the thread at all? Lord. Caustos. Damned. Company. Or any of the other merc chapters/squads/ etc mentioned in the Chaos dex. Eldar pirates are common in all sorts of fluff, and i'm pretty sure some roaming band of Eldar would fight for others for the right reason.

mixing up that kind of equipment and saying it'd work is naive, at best. it'd be a horrid mess, with so many different statlines and saves in one unit.

Or hey, a work around. Guardsmen, in power armor! give em bolters, and you've a unit equal to SoB.

Ddraiglais
09-08-2007, 02:21
How could you have a "dogs" of war without the Tallerian? LOL There are also Nicassar psychers, Fra'al, Demiurg, Caradochians, etc. Loxatl fight for the Blood Pact. Galgs are mercenaries. Scythians are mercs that hate the Imperium. There are tons of different alien races out there that fight as mercs. I'm interested to see what you come up with for stats if you go ahead and do a codex for them.

spacemonkey
09-08-2007, 04:34
For all the nay sayers: alexon47, Ambul, and muskrat have all pointed out there are many and varied reasons for any race to take mercenaries.

I think the Troops should be broken down into something like this:
A Human Merc Unit, An Ork Merc, an Eldar Merc Unit, and a Kroot Merc Unit- All these would have fixed profiles (except possibly WS, BS, and Ld) but would have varied weapon options.
Then you would have Xeno Merc Unit which you could upgrade profiles, may add one USR, and have varied weapon options.

Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support would be variations of this but the Human, Ork, Eldar, and Kroot units would represent specific codex-like units. Again you'd have a customizeable Xenos units for the various slots. Add in a Heavy Elite for those Big Mutants and Feral Ogryns. Marines shouldn't be available as Troops but have options for the other selections.

HQs (except the Xenos) would have race specific profiles but with a lot of options. It would be these HQs that grant access to all but Troops options.

El Presedente
09-08-2007, 10:02
I could see red corsares acting as mercs every once in a while, and cults like the redemtionists being mercs and donating their fees to the imperium or something.

Alot of inspiration should be taken from the Inquisitor game I think, you could have rogue demons too who are more interested in profit than eating souls.

You could also have big merc companys that are made up of different races that have been in sevice together for a long time or something, Merc Vets or something allowing you to make a rag tag squad of races.

crandall87
09-08-2007, 13:33
I have not read through this post but back in the 2nd edition days I am pretty sure that Beastmen used to be renegades. I would like to see them and maybe Eldar pirates and of course Kroot.

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 03:33
I say that the Codex should be organized into subgroups and your HQ determines your troop choices and allies. As in if you chose a Puritan as a leader you couldn't ally with Xenos but, if your led by a Rogue Inquisitor you could ally with pretty much anyone. With Xenos it would be alot more liveral but you would keep basic rivals like Orcs vs. Tau.

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 03:52
Space Marines never go merc? WTF? Have you READ the thread at all? Lord. Caustos. Damned. Company.

Sorry, i play Black Templars, so my fluff never mentioned Sm Mercs. the BT are way to honorable.


Or any of the other merc chapters/squads/ etc mentioned in the Chaos dex.

I don't play Chaos (though i want to once the new codex comes out0 so i wouldn't really know.


Eldar pirates are common in all sorts of fluff, and i'm pretty sure some roaming band of Eldar would fight for others for the right reason.

No offense, but if you have read the new eldar codex, it does say most of the roaming piratical eldar, save some of Alaitoc's rangers, are considered Dark eldar to the eldar.


mixing up that kind of equipment and saying it'd work is naive, at best. it'd be a horrid mess, with so many different statlines and saves in one unit.

Sorry, i was just spitballing. and the save aren't that different. Guard have 5+, Kroot can have 6+, and i think Ork have 5+ IIRC, so give kroot extra armor or something to give em a 5+.


Or hey, a work around. Guardsmen, in power armor! give em bolters, and you've a unit equal to SoB.
Now, This, i totally agree. Having a whole army of Power armored Guard with bolters would kick a**. [cries] It's sad, i'll never see it happen.

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 04:06
Now, This, i totally agree. Having a whole army of Power armored Guard with bolters would kick a**. [cries] It's sad, i'll never see it happen.

It'd work only they have to have an MEQ cost but, a little different because of the stat difference like lets say Bolters would be 2 pts per model and Power armor would be 3.

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 04:12
Now, This, i totally agree. Having a whole army of Power armored Guard with bolters would kick a**. [cries] It's sad, i'll never see it happen.

i just realized something, wouldn't that just make them space marines?

Shaper Shakra
10-08-2007, 04:17
i just realized something, wouldn't that just make them space marines?

:eek: Are you serious!?!

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 04:19
i just realized something, wouldn't that just make them space marines?

No, there would be differences, stats and special rules.

Shaper Shakra
10-08-2007, 04:21
And the fact that their genetically engineered super soldiers mentally conditioned to fear nothing! Space Marines can spit acid and have two hearts for gods sake!

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 04:26
okay, so they aren't the exact same, but when has spitting acid ever happened in a tabletop battle. the power armor should at least give the guardsmen a 4 toughness to match the SM. just give em some training or a weapon that increases their strength. there ya go.

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 04:32
okay, so they aren't the exact same, but when has spitting acid ever happened in a tabletop battle. the power armor should at least give the guardsmen a 4 toughness to match the SM. just give em some training or a weapon that increases their strength. there ya go.

You just can't admit that you were completely wrong, and they don't spit acid it's like super saliva. It's salvia with extremely powerful enzymes the can breakdown metal overtime. I would assume that food is close to instantly broken down by the enzymes too since it only takes a couple hours to eat through metal.

Shaper Shakra
10-08-2007, 04:44
Whatever, it's acid. And anyways, power armor does not grant toughness four. Look at SoB. The toughness four comes from the fact that Space Marines injuries clot instantly, and the fact that only a head shot or a shot that takes out over half their torso will kill them...I think I read a story where a Crimson Fist marine lost the lower half of his body (his legs and abdomen) and kept fighting from the ground with his bolter.

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 04:49
Whatever, it's acid. And anyways, power armor does not grant toughness four. Look at SoB. The toughness four comes from the fact that Space Marines injuries clot instantly, and the fact that only a head shot or a shot that takes out over half their torso will kill them...I think I read a story where a Crimson Fist marine lost the lower half of his body (his legs and abdomen) and kept fighting from the ground with his bolter.

If GW actually acurately represented all the Space Marine's traits they would be the beardiest/cheesiest army ever.

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 04:50
alright, alright, i give. you can let a man who wants to see a pitiful guardsman become a SM dream, can't you? CAN'T YOU!?!?

And on another note, i do agree with you guys.

1: No, i can never admit i am fully wrong. I am a very stubborn person.

2: I have (am) creating a SM chapter with a SM in it who spent 3 hours fighting hordes of orks, alone, lost his left arm, Half his left leg, and took a las cannon to his abdomen and fought on to allow the apothecaries to treat his injured chaplain, who comes back in a Dreadnought to help him (Apothecaries couldn't heal his wounds enough, so they placed him in a dreadnoughts sarcophagus (think Witch Hunter's penitent engine.) the marine died of his wounds.)

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 04:55
alright, alright, i give. you can let a man who wants to see a pitiful guardsman become a SM dream, can't you? CAN'T YOU!?!?

No I can't, Right now I'm trying to make a renegage guardsmen in power armor and I'm thinking about how the model is going to look It's going to have a Vox-caster head because the mercenaries in my mind all would have vox-casters. and it's going to look weird like a Space Marine with a guardsmen's head. Does anyone know of a space marine model with a slim build? If so do you know where I could pick up some models?

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 04:58
No I can't, Right now I'm trying to make a renegage guardsmen in power armor and I'm thinking about how the model is going to look It's going to have a Vox-caster head because the mercenaries in my mind all would have vox-casters. and it's going to look weird like a Space Marine with a guardsmen's head. Does anyone know of a space marine model with a slim build? If so do you know where I could pick up some models?

hate to break it to ya, but i don't think your gonna find a normal, slim SM. you could probably greenstuff some armor onto a guardsman to make it look like Guard power armor.

Arcanus
10-08-2007, 05:07
hate to break it to ya, but i don't think your gonna find a normal, slim SM. you could probably greenstuff some armor onto a guardsman to make it look like Guard power armor.

I know I would have to touch that greenstuff, if only the god's blessed me with sculpting skills. I hate greenstuff. Whenever I try something it looks like crap. Well at least I can write ok fluff, I guess ... ok so maybe not:cries:.