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View Full Version : Slow play = Unsporting



Kahadras
07-08-2007, 00:02
Watched a game yesterday. Basicaly the good side (Lizardmen and Elves) had to defend from an attack from the evil team (Orcs and Ogres). The game was a big one and the good side focused very heavily on shooting/magic with a second gen Slann and multiple supporting skink priests and mages along with multiple RBT's and archers.

This ended up with the evil side taking a real pounding in the early turns of the game as they maneuvered into position. The Orcs and Ogre players took their turns quite quickly but the 'good' side took far longer and didn't seem to concerned about the time limit set on the game. The game basicaly ended at the end of turn four with the evil side only really getting in one decent round of combat.

I was left wondering whether the good team had been playing slowly on purpose (or were just lacking the will to move faster). It just seemed a bit unfair to me as with the full six turns I reckon the evil side could have really done a lot of damage but were denyed their 'best' turns.

What do other people think?

Kahadras

Urgat
07-08-2007, 00:38
Playing so melee armies don't get to have their melee turns? I suppose I don't need to tell what I think of that...

EOT
07-08-2007, 00:43
Indeed......Seconded

Vishok
07-08-2007, 01:06
If there had been a time limit on the game I think I would have urged my opponent not to dawdle. That might seem unsporting, but deliberately slowing down the game is even more so.

Move those thrice-damned elves, fool!!

ehlijen
07-08-2007, 03:45
That's why timed games also need timed turns. And why timed multiplayer games only ever work with practiced teams.

Abriael
07-08-2007, 04:43
I don't have much love for timed games honestly. Wasting time (or hurrying on the other hand), can influence the outcome too much.

aenimosity
07-08-2007, 05:23
I don't have much love for timed games honestly. Wasting time (or hurrying on the other hand), can influence the outcome too much.

I'd much rather make mistakes from trying to hurry though. I'd rather play a quick game where i lost due to a couple of errors of judgement, than a slow boring game that I won.

It's fairly fluffy when you think about it. Who's got a lot of time in a battle? Decisions have to be made fast.

pcgamer72
07-08-2007, 05:55
I am usually able to finish my games at tourneys and such... but I know that there have been a few games that my opponent drives me crazy with his/her slow play. I don't like to prod people, so once I was only able to get through TWO turns in 2 hours. I believe that was due more to his inexperience, but I believe there is definitely a point where slow play becomes unsporting.

Bookwrak
07-08-2007, 06:01
Deliberately playing slow to deprive your oppenent of his turns is really just cheating. A timed game really needs timed turns, and you'd better spend part of your strategizing time figuring out how to get who, where, fast.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-08-2007, 06:55
Slow playing is about the most annoying thing you can run into. Granted, I know I play fast(I think 45 minutes is about my record for a 2k game, from start to finish), but if my opponents movement phase takes twice as long as my entire turn...

And deliberatly playing slow to prevent the game from reaching full time is at best unsporting and at worst cheating in my opinion. It's certainly giving yourself an unfair advantage.

Jellicoe
07-08-2007, 08:52
Ideal piece of equipment for timed games is one of those dual clocks used in chess tournaments where each player starts and stops their own clock at the beginning and end of their move

Xavier
07-08-2007, 08:53
Most tournaments are quite good at spotting deliberate slow playing to 'win' or 'hold a draw' by the time limit, and normally let games run over if it is clearly evident that has been happening.

EvC
07-08-2007, 10:07
Well it's clearly a form of cheating if done to stop your opponent getting into combat. Though with the "good" side here I doubt it was intentional. I once played a large game with High Elves and Empire against various evil forces and we had loads of shooting which took a while... but by the time the evil forces got across the board our leader was knackered and had had enough and the game was over! I didn't mind, as I had the cavalry contingent and the enemy opposite me had (Ambusing) Beastmen so we had a nice SPLAT in the middle of the table and by my table edge, but no-one else seemed to have much fun. I'm a very fast player, though.

theunwantedbeing
07-08-2007, 11:48
I always try to make sure that the game moves on at a reasonable speed.
30 minute phases arent always particularly fun for both players(at 2k level anyway....anything 5k+ and 30minutes might be quite quick!).

I've had people complain about my tzeentch armies magic phase and how long it takes a few times before.
But then again I dont get a shooting phase(bar my tzeentch firewyrms) so Im allowed more time in one phase than another,especially as my movement phase tends to be over in a minute or 2.

I've also had people complain that I roll things too quickly....
So I guess its down to each players own opinions of how fast(or slow) they want the game to run at.

scarletsquig
07-08-2007, 11:52
In that particular case, there's no real excuse for the elf/lizardmen players.

If you're a shooting-heavy army, you don't move very much, and the movement phase is the most time-consuming phase in the game.. it certaintly should have taken the evil horde armies on the other side a lot longer.

ZeroTwentythree
07-08-2007, 13:51
I suppose it depends on the particulars, as to whether I would consider it cheating. Some players are just indecisive or are still learning the rules.

What annoys me is when players take too long because they are too busy with phone calls, or something similar.

I've never played a strictly timed game, but the risk of making mistakes seems a small penalty, considering a battlefield commander would have to deal with making quick decisions in the first place.

Tutore
07-08-2007, 14:59
If it isn't completely cheating, it's very unsporting. I also had similar experiences.

Geetarman
07-08-2007, 15:15
If I were on the orc n ogre side I would claim the game null and void due to the extended turns and simply make a mental note not to play them again...

Cheating/unsportsmanlike conduct or not its still irritating and I always make a mental note to not play people who annoy me in a game (whether I win or lose) I'd rather lose in a quick fun game than win in a slow boring, confrontational or argumentative one...

Gman

N1AK
07-08-2007, 15:24
I think I play reasonably quickly, I played a game last night that lasted 2 hours including time to put together the board, setup terrain and buy a couple of rounds at the bar.
However the games there normally last the whole night, terrain setup starting at 7.30pm and the game ending at 11pm which to means seems very long, but I don't think anyone is cheating.

- - -
At the UK Doubles tournament we got a draw in the last game because the other side played to avoid another turn, they slowed turn 4 down to a crawl and didn't want to start turn 5 with 25 mins remaining.
I would like to see tournaments starting to use chess style timers, using rules like:
1/ Both players get 50% of round time on the clock, if it runs out you lose.
2/ Players get penalised 15VP for every minute over the time they delay.
3/ Players get 1/12th of round time per 'turn' if they run out, their turn ends.

The problem you get then, is people can game the system by going slow in your turn.
"..... So you hit me with how many arrows?..... Ok well my basic save is... (slowly checks army book) 4+.... the normal modifier is +1.... Does your bow count as armour piercing?.... Ok so thats 5+ to save.... Ok I made 4 saves of 7 shots.... so thats 3 dead."

- - -
The other option would be punish both players if games dont finish on time, ie neither player gets any points, but again it's hardly fair.

King Thurgun
07-08-2007, 17:21
I mean, if it was just a pick and play game these guys were doing and one team had to leave, i would be satisfied with just saying "Well they shot the hell out of us for 2 hours, but if we'd had another half hour we'd have wiped the floor with them!" If they were diliberately slowing the game because of a tourney-based time limit however, there should have been timed turns to prevent this. All in all, not very sporting, i mean, it just means the guys don't get a chance to really get to play.

@I hate Bretonnians!: Wow whining pre-set into your username. Thats hardcore. If you don't like Bretonnians, Buy some bolt throwers :P

W0lf
07-08-2007, 17:23
assuming this is a non-competetive game i cannot see why the shooty army would purposefully slow down.

Its not as if they can claim a real victory. They couldnt possibly get any good feeling that comes with victory if they hadnt let the game be fair.

Prince Facestab
07-08-2007, 17:34
Perfectly legitimate tactics for tournaments, if you ask me.

Except that many tournaments have sportsmanship scores. I'd expect that score to go way down if a "perfectly legitimate tactic" like this was employed.

EvC
07-08-2007, 17:46
One of my first games after an absence of more than ten years from the hobby was against a Bretonnian army, and we played a "capture" scenario. My opponent was ridiculously slow the entire game, and placed his Grail Knights on the objective, while I spent the rest of the game tearing apart the rest of his army. It came to about turn 5 after three looooong hours, and I was about to charge these Grail Knights with a monster-riding Vampire Count, Black Knights, Skeletons and anything else I could manage. Instead I got, "Oh well, time's up, game over, I win!".

Moral of the story: We all hate Bretonnians! :D

Finnigan2004
07-08-2007, 17:56
So, by extension, if I saw said gunline across the table, it would be a "perfectly legitimate tactic" to take two hours setting up, shake hands, and take the draw? Sweet! I'm keeping that one in my back pocket for the next time I see a gunline, if it's not unsporting.

Prince Facestab
07-08-2007, 19:14
Heh, I figured he was a troll. I just couldn't find a polite way to say it, and didn't think that it was time to be rude yet.

To counterpoint the general trend here, as well as my own opinions, some people are just kinda slow. There's two people at my gaming store... every game they play, before terrain is set up, they take their army out of their cases, and place them on the table, all lined up, in what is possibly a deployment zone (although since we haven't picked table edges, it's not necessarily their deployment zone). Eventually we tell them to move so terrain can be set up, and they put their guys away again. It definately slows things down, but there's obviously no malice in it. Like I said, some people are just kinda slow.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
07-08-2007, 20:10
Depends on the circumstances. Deliberate time wasting, such as huddles over each and every ******* spell to be cast, whether or not to dispel, whether to use dice or a scroll, just how far a unit is going to move etc is just plain irritating.

However, some armies cannot help but take longer than others. I play Empire, and my turns tend to be pretty swift, as my Detachments are treated like a single unit in my strategies, and I usually plan ahead in my opponents turn. The longest phase is usually my shooting phase, as I try to work out appropriate guesses!

Orcs, and even Undead however, have far more troops to move, and this is going to take time!

zak
07-08-2007, 20:32
No one likes a cheater and this is what I would see as cheating. Deliberately doing something unsportsmanlike just to win a game is sad and it's a shame that some need to stupe to this level.

theunwantedbeing
07-08-2007, 20:47
You'de be surprised how many people can actually gain enjoyment out of cheating,I doubt they feel any remorse about it.
Especially if they person they were facing didnt realise they were facing a cheater,im sure the thought of your opponents realisation and the fact that they can do nothing about it makes them feel rather pleased with themselves.

There's very little you can do about them,just hope you spot their intentions early on and then you pressure them into a mistake,and jump on it using it to your own advantage to get them removed from the store/tournament/wherever you are.

oop
07-08-2007, 21:05
if your oponent insists in setting a time limit, set a time limit for every turn as well.

Want a game in 2 hours? Fine. We have 10 minutes each for every turn. You didnīt have time to shoot...sorry, time limit means that, itīs my turn now.

Sounds pretty harsh? Yeah, but if you are facing people who denies their chaos oponent the last 2 turns you need to.

If you are playing your mates you obviously need nothing of that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
07-08-2007, 21:09
if your oponent insists in setting a time limit, set a time limit for every turn as well.

Want a game in 2 hours? Fine. We have 10 minutes each for every turn. You didnīt have time to shoot...sorry, time limit means that, itīs my turn now.

Sounds pretty harsh? Yeah, but if you are facing people who denies their chaos oponent the last 2 turns you need to.

If you are playing your mates you obviously need nothing of that.

Indeed. The TURN limit is more important than the TIME limit.
One must be made to fit the other, and forcing a time limit on each turn is the fairest way to do so.

mav1971
08-08-2007, 19:28
Technically its legal, but I hate playing against people who just sit there and shoot and cast magic. It makes for a boring game. I like it when i'm in combat by turn 2 not turn 4.

Khorghan
08-08-2007, 19:46
Timed games need timed turns, wasting time like that is definatly unsporty

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
11-08-2007, 14:02
I would have told them to spead up, if they didn't it wouldn't be fair.

We dont have time limits on our games. I dont like rushing. Though I do try to be quick myself so that my oponent doesn't get bored.

The SkaerKrow
12-08-2007, 10:33
Games with time limits must have turns with time limits. If they don't, well, what do you expect?

Appoloclypse
13-08-2007, 09:28
I try to move the game along fairly fast but I am still learning how to play WFB, so when I play it is generaly with my friends so we can take our time to do things right and learn the rules as we go, I still make tactilcle blunders like letting my saurus cav get charged by dwarfs but that is more due to terain than bad plans. Put us in a game of 40K we can usualy get though a 1500 to 2000 point game in about an hour and a half depending on the players some people should have their right to have a cell revoked.

Nkari
13-08-2007, 19:59
2000 pts takes about 1.5 hours to 2 hours to play if the ppl involved in the game knows their army and the rules.. simple as that.. anything over 3 hours for a game is SLOOOOOOOOOW play no matter how many units you have..

Crazy Harborc
14-08-2007, 02:19
Time limits on how long a game can last should always include time limits on the length of the phases. X minutes for each part of a players phase. The same type of timers used for chess would work.;)

GranFarfar
14-08-2007, 15:26
Technically its legal, but I hate playing against people who just sit there and shoot and cast magic. It makes for a boring game. I like it when i'm in combat by turn 2 not turn 4.

Shooting and magic is not the same thing as playing slow.

sephiroth87
15-08-2007, 16:30
For the record, I'm sort of infamous at our store for playing slowly. There are two reasons:

1. I'd rather control the pace of the game, which is something I've always done.
2. I take my time trying to make good decisions.

Is this unsporting? I'm not sure. I used to play sports in high school and against people who played a fast offense, we would just run grinding, slow offenses so that it forced people to play our game. It worked, too.

In a tournament with time limits, I've played people who have intentionally slowed the game down. I understood what was happening pretty quickly and made a decision to just rush the opponent's army with everything I had, hoping to get into combat, or just hid everything behind terrain or stayed out of the range of the opponent's guns. The latter choice always made them angry, but I thought it was fair.

Asger
15-08-2007, 18:02
Intentionally stalling a game with a time limit is definately cheating.

And I've seen it done at tournaments more than once.

Asger

mav1971
15-08-2007, 19:53
Shooting and magic is not the same thing as playing slow.

If they do a all shooty army it is slow play. Because they have 500 units they have to roll dice for and then they have to decide which of their units are going shoot which of my units. It takes forever!!

Nkari
16-08-2007, 09:53
No, shooty armies should be alot faster to play because there are no movement!.. all you need to go is go throu, pick a target, roll the dice, pick another unit, pick the same target, roll the dice.. Repeat until target is neutralized or you run out of units to shoot at it with.. doing so with 10-20 units (wich is pretty much the maximum a _all_ shooty army is going to have) will not take more than a minute a unit.. and if you are _NOT_ thinking about what you are going to do next turn while your oponent moves his units, does his shooting and magic then I feel sorry for your oponents..

mav1971
16-08-2007, 14:23
No, shooty armies should be alot faster to play because there are no movement!.. all you need to go is go throu, pick a target, roll the dice, pick another unit, pick the same target, roll the dice.. Repeat until target is neutralized or you run out of units to shoot at it with.. doing so with 10-20 units (wich is pretty much the maximum a _all_ shooty army is going to have) will not take more than a minute a unit.. and if you are _NOT_ thinking about what you are going to do next turn while your oponent moves his units, does his shooting and magic then I feel sorry for your oponents..

You would think it'd be faster, but it isn't unless you know what your doing with your army. Yes I know they have a max probably 10-20 units, its called exaggeration.

Crazy Harborc
17-08-2007, 01:20
Gee, does this mean......I am NOT pushing a gunline army when I only have a total of 9 shooting units, 10 in each, in a 2500 or 3000 point army??;)

Sebastian_Forte
17-08-2007, 16:24
Me and my friends used to play really slowly when we were playing WHFB.

It's because we play the game very casually. So when we started playing at our local GW (before it got closed down) we had to speed it up a bit!

What slowed the game down so much for me was all the special rules. Every unit has special rules and special magic, and then special rules that apply to the special magic,etc. Ruleswise, its about time the development team culled some of the unneccesary stuff, and sorted out the turn sequence! (now thats the vague and polite way of putting it ;))

TheOverlord
17-08-2007, 17:47
Indeed, players who waste time dawdling are a bane to the game >< Especially when it's done to prolong a set timed game to garner a cheap win >< Damn elves...

Worse are those who run away when they're getting a beat down halfway through the game with a 'timely' call to their mom that it's time to go home O_o. This same guy has been known to go back at 3 am, so we all know he was running away, the cheaper. It may have been 40k, but still!