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Tobias
23-08-2005, 21:51
http://www.thegreatuncleanone.com/viewShort.asp?ArmyID=161746

please rate :)

DARKsoulx
23-08-2005, 22:40
is that even legal? with chariots and silverhelms in it?

Muffin Man
24-08-2005, 00:36
I believe, you are confusing this with a sea patrol list. It's a regular HE list that happens to have lothern sea guard. Of course I don't have the HE book, so it could still be illegal.

shadowprince
24-08-2005, 01:24
Drop the seaguard for spearmen you get more, and sea guared are over priced for their 5-6 extra shot, if you want shooting get archers if you want fighting get spearmen or swordmasters. Characters are nice, i would suggest book of hoeth then have one mage cast second sign to prevent miscasts

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 06:35
Characters are nice, i would suggest book of hoeth then have one mage cast second sign to prevent miscasts
I would suggest that you read the 6th edition rulebook again. Most notably, the section pertaining to the effect re-rolls have on preventing Miscasts. I'll summarise for you: Nothing.

Moving on.

Archmage: I really don't think he needs that staff. He is there for blasting things, but you shouldn't be getting that many miscasts unless you have really bad luck with your dice. I'd go with the Starwood Staff for the better chances of succeeding at casting spells.

Commander: If he is intended to be actually using that bow, then mount him on one of your Eagles and give him Lance, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armour and the Reaver Bow. Lots of mobility, can snipe with his ranged ability, and also has the capability to do some damage if he charges.

Mage: Not sure on this one. I generally use lesser mages as caddies to fuel my Archmage's spells, rather than make them into "active casters" in their own right.

Seaguard: Painful. Switch them for Spearmen. You get better results for less expenditure. Use any spare points to get another unit of 5 Silver Helms.

Spearmen: No problems here on first impression.

Dragon Princes: Not bad. I'd make them into a unit of 6 if you can find the points, but otherwise, not too bad.

Chariots: Fine.

Eagles: Fine (Although I prefer 4 as opposed to 2).

RBT's: Fine.

Tobias
24-08-2005, 09:21
Thanks for the comments

aobut the archmage, one tourney in 3 battles I had a total of like 8 miscasts :P and that was 1500 points :P

About the command and sea guard, I know veryone thinks sea guard sick etc etc, but the thing is people know the suck so they will leave the unit alone, althought it really has much killing power ... And everyone says they suck like hell, and I want to prove they are wrong ;) :P

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 09:33
aobut the archmage, one tourney in 3 battles I had a total of like 8 miscasts :P and that was 1500 points :P
Huh? You had an Archmage in 1500 points? Or am I just reading it wrong?


About the command and sea guard, I know veryone thinks sea guard sick etc etc, but the thing is people know the suck so they will leave the unit alone, althought it really has much killing power
Not really. They'll just see the Seaguard as a big target for them to tear apart without much difficulty to get some quick points. And for what they cost, they don't have much killing power at all.


And everyone says they suck like hell, and I want to prove they are wrong
Good luck. You'll need it.

Tobias
24-08-2005, 09:51
Huh? You had an Archmage in 1500 points? Or am I just reading it wrong?


I ment I had 8 miscasts with normale mages ;) with 2 dice spells and stuff :P




Not really. They'll just see the Seaguard as a big target for them to tear apart without much difficulty to get some quick points. And for what they cost, they don't have much killing power at all.


Perhaps they have some magical protection ;)really depends on the army I'm facing, most army's dont have the good things to kill them, war machines will not really a mind one line infantry cause they won't do much hits, enemy shooters are outshot by my botl throwers, or magiced to death, or ym cav/eagles handle them and if it is cc, well I jsut cna shoot the hell out of them with my eagles blockening marches ... I think they cna do the trick well




Good luck. You'll need it.

thank you

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 10:05
Perhaps they have some magical protection really depends on the army I'm facing, most army's dont have the good things to kill them, war machines will not really a mind one line infantry cause they won't do much hits, enemy shooters are outshot by my botl throwers, or magiced to death, or ym cav/eagles handle them and if it is cc, well I jsut cna shoot the hell out of them with my eagles blockening marches ... I think they cna do the trick well
They charge you with cavalry, hit you with flyers, magic you. An intelligent opponent won't have to meet you head-to-head to get to them. He'll just go around you.

The S3 shooting really won't affect armies like Dwarfs or Chaos, either, with their high Armour Saves. And all it takes is one or two flank shots, and you're in trouble.

In general, once they hit your long, overextended and indefensible line, you're gone. If you want that big line of arrows, you might actually be better suited to taking Archers (even though they too are overpriced), since they'll provide the same level of firepower for less points.

Brother Edwin
24-08-2005, 10:12
I would lose the infantry and make it all calvery.

Tobias
24-08-2005, 10:48
They charge you with cavalry, hit you with flyers, magic you. An intelligent opponent won't have to meet you head-to-head to get to them. He'll just go around you.

The S3 shooting really won't affect armies like Dwarfs or Chaos, either, with their high Armour Saves. And all it takes is one or two flank shots, and you're in trouble.

In general, once they hit your long, overextended and indefensible line, you're gone. If you want that big line of arrows, you might actually be better suited to taking Archers (even though they too are overpriced), since they'll provide the same level of firepower for less points.


I know, but spells like howler wind will save my ass vs those things, and don't forget I have caelery to mee cavelry only my cav is faster ;), many arrows work good vs flyers and the stand and shoot vs flyers work really good too especially with the 3 S5 shots, so I won't mind those flyers ;)

The Dawrfs are slow so I don't mind them :P

If something cna hurt my unit I have something against it, I know it's tricky, but I don't think many people have tried this

@Brother Edwin ... No ;p

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 13:31
I still don't see the point of using all your cavalry and the like to engage in diversionary actions to keep the enemy away from a stretched out, thin and vulnerable unit. It's easier to just not take said unit in the first place, and have your units work together instead of just defending the one unit.

As to the all-cavalry option: Boring.

Tobias
24-08-2005, 13:35
Gehe but isn't it an accomplishemnt to make it work ;)

But the main trick is in the reform :) andpeople think twice when there's a flanking cav unit besided themw hen they charge ;) they hold the charge very well :)

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 13:40
You're just sitting here, waiting for me to reply, aren't you... :p


Gehe but isn't it an accomplishemnt to make it work
The trick is to actually get it to work to begin with.


But the main trick is in the reform andpeople think twice when there's a flanking cav unit besided themw hen they charge they hold the charge very well
So the entire thing depends on the reform. That leaves you with a one-trick-pony list. People wise up to that sort of thing very quickly, and it doesn't take long to counter once you know what's coming.

Tobias
24-08-2005, 14:02
No it's nt only the reform the reform plus silver helsm are just a trick, those two combine, I have more units you know ;)

Eldacar
24-08-2005, 14:19
I personally don't think it will work, or if it does, it won't work that well (as you've probably been able to figure out). But you're welcome to try it out if you want, I can't stop you.

shadowprince
26-08-2005, 04:18
The calvary would work well as a diversion, but the sea guard are just to big and too expensive to leave alone. So while you are harrasing with calvary you will be ignore and the 300pts from sea guard will be done. Try going spearmen becuase people will think between the calv and speamen then. ALso you can get some more units if you use the spearmen.

Eldacar
26-08-2005, 06:44
Try going spearmen becuase people will think between the calv and speamen then. ALso you can get some more units if you use the spearmen.
Not really. Spearmen are slow compared to cavalry. You kill the cavalry first, because they are more movable and dangerous, and then you can deal with the Spearmen at your leisure.

enyoss
26-08-2005, 11:01
Just going back to the Archmage options quickly.

@ Eldacar: Have you found the Starwood staff to be useful at all? It has always looked a bit expensive to me for the effects so I've never got around to using it.

@ Tobias: Sympathies with the miscasts! If you're going for a magic offensive before your opponent reaches combat I would keep the Staff of Solidity. The last thing you need is to lose an entire magic phase due to an 8-9 on the miscast chart. This will help prevent that (hopefully!).

cheers,

enyoss

Tobias
26-08-2005, 11:13
The calvary would work well as a diversion, but the sea guard are just to big and too expensive to leave alone. So while you are harrasing with calvary you will be ignore and the 300pts from sea guard will be done. Try going spearmen becuase people will think between the calv and speamen then. ALso you can get some more units if you use the spearmen.


Yup But they will think twice charging the sea guard ;) with soem arrows to stand and shoot and a big rank

and imagina a unit of flyers charges my LSG, let's say 5 furies

17 arrows hitting on 5's let's say 6 hit, 3 wound, and 2 die
then 3 arrow hitting on 3's one hit, 2 wound it's magicla 2 die

is 4 dead furies, 1 left, is really dead one :P

Imagine a unit fast cav charges

17 shots 8,5 hits, 4,25 wound is 2/3 dead
3 shots hitting on 2's 3 hit, elt's day 2 wound is another 2 dead

and the fast cav wil lsimply loose cc

let's say 5 chosen chaos knight are in front of me
I reform 63

he charges, 5 arrows, 2,5 hit, let say 1 wound no kill
3 shots hititng on2 's, 3 hitsm 2 wounded, maybe 1 dead

let's say they make 10 attacks, hitting 6,33 killing 5
the horses 2,5 hits 1 dead
gives me 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds no dead
3 attakcs hititng on 3's wound on e's 1 dead

well he'll have 7points
I'll have 5

So that's a big no no

but it is a go go when 2 chariots charge that chaos knight unit with 2d6 S5 impact hits ...

The LSG can survive: flyers, fast cav, and normal heavy cav units and regiments(in 63 formation)

The storng units that can hurt my LSG or units that have a bad ass general, I cna weak them firs twith my shooting so eventually I will kill them :P

I guess they will do really good :P

Eldacar
26-08-2005, 11:40
@ Eldacar: Have you found the Starwood staff to be useful at all? It has always looked a bit expensive to me for the effects so I've never got around to using it.
On occasion, it can be useful. However, there are, IMO, better options available to you.


and imagina a unit of flyers charges my LSG, let's say 5 furies

17 arrows hitting on 5's let's say 6 hit, 3 wound, and 2 die
then 3 arrow hitting on 3's one hit, 2 wound it's magicla 2 die

is 4 dead furies, 1 left, is really dead one :P
You're paying 300+ points to kill a 75 point unit. No, you're paying 300+ points to kill 60 points worth of a unit that is what is commonly called a "throwaway unit." Meaning you've spent all that supposed good shooting on almost nothing.


Imagine a unit fast cav charges

17 shots 8,5 hits, 4,25 wound is 2/3 dead
3 shots hitting on 2's 3 hit, elt's day 2 wound is another 2 dead

and the fast cav wil lsimply loose cc
You're still killing far less than what you paid for the unit, but without you giving me a unit to use as an example, I can't run the numbers.


let's say 5 chosen chaos knight are in front of me
I reform 63

he charges, 5 arrows, 2,5 hit, let say 1 wound no kill
3 shots hititng on2 's, 3 hitsm 2 wounded, maybe 1 dead

let's say they make 10 attacks, hitting 6,33 killing 5
the horses 2,5 hits 1 dead
gives me 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds no dead
3 attakcs hititng on 3's wound on e's 1 dead

well he'll have 7points
I'll have 5
There isn't much that can take a charge from Chosen Chaos Knights. They will butcher most everything they come up against. And they have just dealt over 60 points worth of damage to your unit while suffering no losses, and forcing you to perhaps flee. And then they run you down, and gain even more for themselves.


The storng units that can hurt my LSG or units that have a bad ass general, I cna weak them firs twith my shooting so eventually I will kill them :P
You seem to be under the impression that your shooting will protect you. It won't. HE shooting is inferior to that of Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, even the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings can get better archery out of their army.

You won't weaken them. The units with a "bad ass general" in them will be heavily armed and armoured, and will get to you, and when they do, you'll be paying for it.

Tobias
26-08-2005, 11:59
1. On occasion, it can be useful. However, there are, IMO, better options available to you.You're paying 300+ points to kill a 75 point unit. No, you're paying 300+ points to kill 60 points worth of a unit that is what is commonly called a "throwaway unit." Meaning you've spent all that supposed good shooting on almost nothing.


2. You're still killing far less than what you paid for the unit, but without you giving me a unit to use as an example, I can't run the numbers.

3.
There isn't much that can take a charge from Chosen Chaos Knights. They will butcher most everything they come up against. And they have just dealt over 60 points worth of damage to your unit while suffering no losses, and forcing you to perhaps flee. And then they run you down, and gain even more for themselves.

4. You seem to be under the impression that your shooting will protect you. It won't. HE shooting is inferior to that of Empire, Dwarfs, Skaven, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, even the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings can get better archery out of their army.

You won't weaken them. The units with a "bad ass general" in them will be heavily armed and armoured, and will get to you, and when they do, you'll be paying for it.

1. Wrong here ... you are The thing is I have like 4 shotting face68 S3 shots and 12 S5 shots, it will killl a 200points units probably more
And when I Get charged I will kill a unit in my enemy's face, and elts say I get charged by flyers, I kill 75 points, then fast cav I kill 80 points, and then i still have my own shooting faces and cc power So you are forgetting that


2.I am kiilling him and he isn't killing me I got 400points but he doesn't get the VP for my unit easy as that

3. And before that glorious charge I have killed a unit marauders a unit flyers some fast cav and other small units ... And how about my DP and chariots charging that unit ... You're forgetting I have an army too hea and more then1 shooting face and there's achange my LSG will survive the charge ;)


4. Yes I will weaken them, maybe with my rbt maybe with magic, you are again forgetting I have an army and multiple shooting/magic faces warhammer isn't just 1 turn

Eldacar
26-08-2005, 12:26
1. Wrong here ... you are The thing is I have like 4 shotting face68 S3 shots and 12 S5 shots, it will killl a 200points units probably more
200 points maximum, really, since most infantry blocks aren't over that amount (there's only rare few that are). When you're paying more than 300 points. Something is wrong here.


And when I Get charged I will kill a unit in my enemy's face, and elts say I get charged by flyers, I kill 75 points, then fast cav I kill 80 points, and then i still have my own shooting faces and cc power So you are forgetting that
This one flew right over my head. "A unit in my enemy's face"? What does that mean?


2.I am kiilling him and he isn't killing me I got 400points but he doesn't get the VP for my unit easy as that
Missing the point here. You assumed that you would be killing the unit. However, you may well not be. Like I said, without knowledge as to what unit you're using for comparison, I can't run the numbers.


3. And before that glorious charge I have killed a unit marauders a unit flyers some fast cav and other small units ... And how about my DP and chariots charging that unit ... You're forgetting I have an army too hea and more then1 shooting face and there's achange my LSG will survive the charge
Chaos players who let their expensive Chosen Knights get charged deserve to be charged.
And you're forgetting that he has an army too. What happens when your DP and Chariots are otherwise occupied. What happens when your shooting fails to kill his marauders/flyers/fast cavalry? Since people rarely take the minimum unit size for furies, putting in a unit of 5 as an example doesn't really work.
As to surviving the charge, there is a small chance. Not a very good one. Not one that I'd make a wager on.


4. Yes I will weaken them, maybe with my rbt maybe with magic, you are again forgetting I have an army and multiple shooting/magic faces warhammer isn't just 1 turn
Okay, I'll bring in the Bretonnian Pegasus Knights as an example. They are highly mobile with their flying move, have the Blessing, as well as armour, lances, and the like. You have exactly one turn to kill them. And since they'll hide behind scenery to avoid your arrows, you don't get a shot in. Turn wasted. In their phase, they come tearing up the board with that flying move and crash into your line.

That's just an example. The same thing happens with Eagles, Dragon-mounted characters, flying beasties (DE Beastmaster on Manticore comes to mind), and other such units.

Tobias
26-08-2005, 13:17
Yes there are scary things in every army, but don't forget I have flyers, charitos and the fastest heavy cav in the game, I am more manouverable, and that's way it's likely I'm deceding who's charging who and what's charging what

and I ment when there's a unit in front of my unit '-_- :p

And there are a few units that can defeat my LSG that's why I have M9 stuff, and if some fast cav or flyer something is gonna occupy them I simple shoot them with my lsg ;)

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 02:18
Yes there are scary things in every army, but don't forget I have flyers, charitos and the fastest heavy cav in the game, I am more manouverable, and that's way it's likely I'm deceding who's charging who and what's charging what
All the speed in the world doesn't help you if they move first. They move first = they get to their target before you can stop them.


And there are a few units that can defeat my LSG that's why I have M9 stuff, and if some fast cav or flyer something is gonna occupy them I simple shoot them with my lsg
"A few", doesn't really cover it. Try "a lot" instead. Every part of your army has to be able to operate independently, and not just serve as a bodyguard for one thing (unless you are playing a Seer Council). Having this entire force for the sole purpose of protecting an overpriced, underpowered unit is folly.

shadowprince
27-08-2005, 05:30
They charge you with cavalry, hit you with flyers, magic you. An intelligent opponent won't have to meet you head-to-head to get to them. He'll just go around you.

The S3 shooting really won't affect armies like Dwarfs or Chaos, either, with their high Armour Saves. And all it takes is one or two flank shots, and you're in trouble.

In general, once they hit your long, overextended and indefensible line, you're gone. If you want that big line of arrows, you might actually be better suited to taking Archers (even though they too are overpriced), since they'll provide the same level of firepower for less points.

This is one of the first things I agree with you on. Plus the best the seaguard are gettin is 6 shots not on a hill. Six shots wounding on 4+ isn't going to be overly helpful. But instead of archers go with maby more scouts or reapeter bolt throwers, after you find another core choice, can get 5 Helms 5 Scouts and 1 Bolter for the price of 20 seaguard.

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 08:52
5 Scouts and 1 Bolter
Sounds like somebody plays too much 40K. :p

Tobias
27-08-2005, 09:29
You're all saying my LSG suck and stuff ;) but I want to have them in the army :P I think they will do fine, and I used them before with great succes ...

Latro
27-08-2005, 10:14
You're all saying my LSG suck and stuff ;) but I want to have them in the army :P I think they will do fine, and I used them before with great succes ...

Go for it!

It's not a unit that will prove to be effective no matter what, because they are fragile elves, but in the hands of a skilled general they can and will perform quite nicely.

You just have to make sure you're a good enough general ;)

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 12:06
You can use them if you want. I just thought we were having a dicussion as to their pros and cons.

Tobias
27-08-2005, 12:24
You can use them if you want. I just thought we were having a dicussion as to their pros and cons.

I understand they wont kill an whole army but HE is multiple units work not one unit on it's own ;)

Eldacar
27-08-2005, 13:54
I understand they wont kill an whole army but HE is multiple units work not one unit on it's own
Multiple units working together. Not multiple units whose sole purpose is to protect one overpriced unit. ;)

Tobias
27-08-2005, 15:30
Multiple units working together. Not multiple units whose sole purpose is to protect one overpriced unit. ;)


The LSG protect the spearmen and my cav form enemy shooting/faast cav and my rpb from flyers

if something bad is happeng with my LSG I can use my helms or chariots to defend them, that's working together, nt everything protects that unit :P

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 02:47
Everything is hinging on the LSG, though. That's the problem.

(Not to mention that you will rarely be able to deploy the whole unit in a single line, and if you want the best shooting results, putting them on a hill restricts you from using that line...)

Latro
28-08-2005, 06:36
Everything is hinging on the LSG, though. That's the problem.

(Not to mention that you will rarely be able to deploy the whole unit in a single line, and if you want the best shooting results, putting them on a hill restricts you from using that line...)

Well, that's what you make of it ...

Just because every question asked here has been directed at that particular unit which causes every answer to be about that topic as well doesn't make the entire army depend on that unit.

The big advantage of that unit is it's flexibelity:

- Every turn it's not engaged it will be shooting at the enemy those large volley's of arrows. Add to that a certain spell and it becomes a real threat. If it's hard to deploy the way you want it will still perform because the character plays a large part in dealing the ranged damage.

- If it's threatened by fast cavalry or small flyers it will be able to handle them all by itself. Stand and shoot plus the guaranteed combat results will simply win those battles. It won't even miss a turn of shooting (most likely).

- If threatened by something more dangerous he will simply add an additional threat (spears, chariots, cavalry) to the situation and probably rank-up the unit a bit. If the enemy charges he will have to deal with flanking and what-not ... if he doesn't he will be shot at (again) next turn.

My point ... the unit isn't inherently bad, and most of the arguments used to make them look bad are a bit far fetched (to say the least).

The downside however ... it isn't point effective either. My real concern would be the armies that can out-shoot yours. Do you have enough and strong enough attack units to bring the battle to them (and win it)? A true horde army will also be a real threat (but then again, it's a threat to all armies out there).

Your army certainly has the tools to bring victory, but all in all it's an army that demands a high-performance general and even then it won't come easy. :D

Just the army I like ;)

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 08:28
- Every turn it's not engaged it will be shooting at the enemy those large volley's of arrows. Add to that a certain spell and it becomes a real threat. If it's hard to deploy the way you want it will still perform because the character plays a large part in dealing the ranged damage.
S3 arrows aren't generally that good. The character is more worrying, but he only gets three shots off a turn, so it's bearable.


- If it's threatened by fast cavalry or small flyers it will be able to handle them all by itself. Stand and shoot plus the guaranteed combat results will simply win those battles. It won't even miss a turn of shooting (most likely).
The problem isn't small flyers. The problem is big flyers, and cavalry such as the Bretonnians (as purely an example).


- If threatened by something more dangerous he will simply add an additional threat (spears, chariots, cavalry) to the situation and probably rank-up the unit a bit. If the enemy charges he will have to deal with flanking and what-not ... if he doesn't he will be shot at (again) next turn.
Okay. What I would do if I were facing him would be to direct my strongest units at this unit. This requires him to draw more of his units to defend that unit. Leaving gaps in the rest of his line.


Your army certainly has the tools to bring victory, but all in all it's an army that demands a high-performance general and even then it won't come easy.
I'm not saying it won't work at all. I'm just saying that it is quite difficult to make it work against an experienced player. If it does, then good work. But if it doesn't, then you're in trouble.

Latro
28-08-2005, 09:16
S3 arrows aren't generally that good. The character is more worrying, but he only gets three shots off a turn, so it's bearable..

But not bearable enough to ignore them the entire battle I guess. Ignoring them the entire battle could add up to about 100 S3 shots and 18 S5 shots. I think it's save to say that the average general does not enjoy being shot at continuesly and that he will divert some attention towards it ... and the added bonus of lots of possible VP's ofcourse.


The problem isn't small flyers. The problem is big flyers, and cavalry such as the Bretonnians (as purely an example)..

Indeed, the problem will not be things like small flyers and fast cavalry. Do note however that most armies do rely on things like small flyers and fast cavalry to deal with shooters. Bigger threats need different answers ... so read on.


Okay. What I would do if I were facing him would be to direct my strongest units at this unit. This requires him to draw more of his units to defend that unit. Leaving gaps in the rest of his line..

In others words, if you direct more units (= more points) to it he will need more units (= more points) to counter that threat. Isn't that what a battle is all about? What if he uses his eagles to march-block giving him more time to shoot the attackers (don't forget 2 boltthrowers either, it does add up)? What if he places a unit to redirect the attachers? When it comes to this it's all theory-hammer and in the end the best general will probably come out on top ... that's what decides the battle, not the absence of Sea Guard ;)


I'm not saying it won't work at all. I'm just saying that it is quite difficult to make it work against an experienced player. If it does, then good work. But if it doesn't, then you're in trouble.

In this we probably agree, I just rate his chances a bit higher than you do.

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 09:25
Indeed, the problem will not be things like small flyers and fast cavalry. Do note however that most armies do rely on things like small flyers and fast cavalry to deal with shooters. Bigger threats need different answers ... so read on.
I do note it. Thing is, the LSG are overpriced Spearmen. Hence, you can (to a point) treat them in that manner, as Spearmen, and charge them with whatever you would normally charge a Spearmen unit with.


But not bearable enough to ignore them the entire battle I guess. Ignoring them the entire battle could add up to about 100 S3 shots and 18 S5 shots. I think it's save to say that the average general does not enjoy being shot at continuesly and that he will divert some attention towards it ... and the added bonus of lots of possible VP's ofcourse.
Not the entire battle. Nor ignore them. I wouldn't ignore them, because they're easy VP's. But the shots themselves wouldn't be that damaging. S3 only gets you so far.


that's what decides the battle, not the absence of Sea Guard
1 Expensive Unit = up to 2 or possibly more cheaper units. More units = more stuff the enemy general has to kill. More stuff the enemy general has to kill = more difficulties killing them.

I'd take a unit of Spearelves/Archers over a unit of LSG any day.


When it comes to this it's all theory-hammer and in the end the best general will probably come out on top
For failing to acknowledge the omniscience of the Dice Gods, they will look upon you with disfavour for a period of time that is yet to be determined. ;)

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 10:20
What the hell this is one of saddest lists I've ever seen, it's only saving point is it's mages.

It looks like 50% of the army lists out there would wipe the floor with this list from the word go.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 10:22
Well, that's what you make of it ...

Just because every question asked here has been directed at that particular unit which causes every answer to be about that topic as well doesn't make the entire army depend on that unit.

The big advantage of that unit is it's flexibelity:

- Every turn it's not engaged it will be shooting at the enemy those large volley's of arrows. Add to that a certain spell and it becomes a real threat. If it's hard to deploy the way you want it will still perform because the character plays a large part in dealing the ranged damage.

- If it's threatened by fast cavalry or small flyers it will be able to handle them all by itself. Stand and shoot plus the guaranteed combat results will simply win those battles. It won't even miss a turn of shooting (most likely).

- If threatened by something more dangerous he will simply add an additional threat (spears, chariots, cavalry) to the situation and probably rank-up the unit a bit. If the enemy charges he will have to deal with flanking and what-not ... if he doesn't he will be shot at (again) next turn.

My point ... the unit isn't inherently bad, and most of the arguments used to make them look bad are a bit far fetched (to say the least).

The downside however ... it isn't point effective either. My real concern would be the armies that can out-shoot yours. Do you have enough and strong enough attack units to bring the battle to them (and win it)? A true horde army will also be a real threat (but then again, it's a threat to all armies out there).

Your army certainly has the tools to bring victory, but all in all it's an army that demands a high-performance general and even then it won't come easy. :D

Just the army I like ;)


And here you give all the reasons why they are a good unit :) and I do think it will work, it looks like other HE army only my other killer unit is replaced by the LSG, more tactical advantage and it will work nice

@Eldacar, all you're saying is waht if the other player brings his badd ass unit to tha tunit, well I will kill it wiht ym cav easy, don't forget that at the moment I have killed my enemy's bad ass unit and my expensive unit is still alive, and that is a good thing ;) cause the enemy has lost it's counter and almost all units of mine are counters


1 Expensive Unit = up to 2 or possibly more cheaper units. More units = more stuff the enemy general has to kill. More stuff the enemy general has to kill = more difficulties killing them.

you're right here, but the enmy cna do that too, and my LSG can handle almost eveyr cheap unit there is by shtooting them or killing them in cc

and finalyl@ Latro you seem like a good general ever used the LSG in your games?

Latro
28-08-2005, 10:30
For failing to acknowledge the omniscience of the Dice Gods, they will look upon you with disfavour for a period of time that is yet to be determined. ;)

Well ... let me tell you a story :D

Previous edition I had this nice Chaos army and every time I could I played a certain Chaos Gift on my General ... let's just say that the first three games in a row I had to go to battle with an army minus one General and plus one Chaos Spawn :mad:

I had little chat with my dice after that and since then they all (minus one) know perfectlty well who the God of Dice is ... because that's me, the man with the Hammer. :evilgrin:

Never had those problems again.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 10:34
What the hell this is one of saddest lists I've ever seen, it's only saving point is it's mages.

It looks like 50% of the army lists out there would wipe the floor with this list from the word go.


And how would you kill them ;) I'm not a cheese player, and I guess that with thisa rmy I can beat about 95% of my oponnents, the only prob would be all cav or full shootig, I know there lots of palyers with that, but even if I face that I have stuff, 2 eagles, 2 unit knights an 2 chariots

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 10:52
Hey I have no problem if you enjoy that army but I look at it and think there must be lots of lists that will have you in a trouble spot from turn 1. I'll give some example:

Empire
They have more troops than you do, I have an army list that currently has enough cannons,handgunners and motars to shred that list even if you go first.

Skaven
They have even more expendable troops than The Empire and can either outnumber you 20:1 or storm shooty death at your much more expensive units. They also can get a type of ogres which are the bane of your army.

Chaos
They also have ogres and some flying units. Those will keep your bolt throwers occupied while the slower troops will walk up and smack you around.

Lizardmen
Has better magic than you, more troops or better troops. They also have flying troops.

Undead
You won't be able to do enough damage to them to hurt them and your fast units will be swamped.

Orcs and gobbos
Apart from huge numbers I think you'd actually do well against these guys.

Dark Elves
I'd think you could win a fair amount of battles against these guys too.

Wood Elves
Don't have the new rules for them and haven't played them, heard they are scary.

So all in all every army in a 2000pt list is goint to have several things to take your down. The Seaguard are something I don't think the unexperienced people will bother to focus on until you shoot with them, then you'll have their best unit trying to take them down. That means you'll win in those games, but what about the overwhelming majority of times when the opponent knows to take out that juicy 300pt unit with ogres or something else.

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 11:03
Wood Elves
Don't have the new rules for them and haven't played them, heard they are scary.
They are. Looking at their army book, I see several distinct possiblities that will allow the Woodies to walk all over this army. And I'm not joking one bit, either. They can outmaneouvre almost every army out there if they put their minds to it, looking at my copy of the AB.


Eldacar, all you're saying is waht if the other player brings his badd ass unit to tha tunit, well I will kill it wiht ym cav easy
Would you like to examine that sentence for logistical coherence? Bad ass units are there for the exact purpose of not being taken out without one hell of a fight. ;)


don't forget that at the moment I have killed my enemy's bad ass unit and my expensive unit is still alive, and that is a good thing cause the enemy has lost it's counter and almost all units of mine are counters
Answered in my response above this quote. :rolleyes:


you're right here, but the enmy cna do that too, and my LSG can handle almost eveyr cheap unit there is by shtooting them or killing them in cc
Cheap <> always equal easy to kill. There are cheap units out there that are nigh-impossible to finish off. Dryads are a pain, to begin with, as are the ever-annoying Lizardmen and Bretonnian tin cans. And lets not get into the Undead and their practices of simply summoning new troops in battle...

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 11:09
And a large unit of flagellants, or certain types of stubborn dwarfs and the list could go on.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 11:11
By combining charges the bad ass unti will die, the enemy will send hits flyers fast cav and other suppoer units to my LSG, so that leaves his badd ass unit with no counter ;)

Empire

I have rpb that outshoot them cause more range, I have eagles to pick on the war machines and I charge way harder ;) cause I have more movement and probably better magic

Skaven
Nasty army indeed, but I have more range with my rpb I have eagles that can mage kill and I have better cav, only a SAD army would be a problem

Undead, well I can kill he units that could hurt me hea ;) only skeletons and zombies wont win the match

orcs and gobbo's
uhm, better movemnet better shooting better WS, better initative better strength on the charge etc etc ;) only prob would be if he cause hvy magic, but I still cna mage hunt

Dark Elves
they would be harder for there manouverbilty

WE
they have small units if he charges my LSG I stand and shoot and kill them, I have better movemnt with my cav and enough shooting and magic

I have an army too don't think waht the enmy could do but think of what I cna do to stop that or counter that or do agianst them

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 11:15
By combining charges the bad ass unti will die, the enemy will send hits flyers fast cav and other suppoer units to my LSG, so that leaves his badd ass unit with no counter
And if you send all your support units to attack his big unit, then your easy-to-kill LSG are left wide-open to attack. Following which, his unit, which will be extremely deadly, should be able to weather the storm (otherwise, he wouldn't have taken it) of your support units attacking it while his other units finish you off.

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 11:26
I have rpb that outshoot them cause more range, I have eagles to pick on the war machines and I charge way harder cause I have more movement and probably better magic

No you really don't outrange Great Cannons, trust me here they stand a good chance of hitting something in your lines and gaining their points back and an even better chance of surviving.



Skaven
Nasty army indeed, but I have more range with my rpb I have eagles that can mage kill and I have better cav, only a SAD army would be a problem

Yes you have more range than them, it doesn't matter they if they choose to can outnumber you so badly that you won't be able to get any flanking at all and they have really nasty surprises like rat ogres and assasins, or their warmachines, or even the plague monks that are frenzied.




Undead, well I can kill he units that could hurt me hea only skeletons and zombies wont win the match

Once again it doesn't matter if you can outrange him and shoot his fast units down. If you charge a huge unit and kill everything you can generally you'll still not break the unit. Then next turn your charge is done and they swamp you. Numbers are important you've got to watch out for them.


orcs and gobbo's
uhm, better movemnet better shooting better WS, better initative better strength on the charge etc etc only prob would be if he cause hvy magic, but I still cna mage hunt

Numbers again is important but they can simply outfight you even if you charge, a tooled up black orc unit supported on both sides will not go down from a charge with what you have. Shoot at them all you like they would take flyers anyway.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 11:33
@Natahniel, no they can't choose they must have a list that could win too of most armies ...

@Eldacar, my LSG can handle thsoe suppoer units, and I still have rpb left a unit princes/silve rhelms eagles and a block of speamren and my magic ... :P could work hea ;)

Eldacar
28-08-2005, 11:35
Eldacar, my LSG can handle thsoe suppoer units, and I still have rpb left a unit princes/silve rhelms eagles and a block of speamren and my magic ... :P could work hea
It has a chance of working. Not a chance that I'd take, but a chance.

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 11:37
I agree but in 2000pt battles you're going to face most of these things nearly all the time, I look at my Empire list which is for battles against every type of army and know that I'd walk all over that army simply because the knights have a very short life expectancy, same with the chariots.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 11:39
Also depends on your enemy ;) and I don't how many cannons, hellblasters handgunners etc etc you have ;) but I have my ways of making sure those won't do much harm ;)

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 11:44
Thats fine but could I help you by telling you how an opponent might seek to counter those things?

Magic items

Shoot them

Protect the cannons (I have an engineer that will strike first anything you send there and shoot out 3 bullets, I assume other armies would protect their artillery in a similar way).

Tobias
28-08-2005, 11:46
Thats fine but could I help you by telling you how an opponent might seek to counter those things?

Magic items

Shoot them

Protect the cannons (I have an engineer that will strike first anything you send there and shoot out 3 bullets, I assume other armies would protect their artillery in a similar way).


Uhhm ...

I have also magic items
I cna shoot too
and I have defense on my units too

deosn't say there is no way of killing them ;)

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 11:59
I'm not saying you don't have these things, hell you're packing a ton of magical power but thats not my point.

My point is you're assuming you can remove something like a battery of cannons quite easily with just 2 eagles and 2 bolt throwers.

I'm trying to say combined they might be able to hinder the cannons in the case of the eagles but not before the cannons really lay into your very small force.

I have under 600 points invested in cannons, mortars and engineer protectors.

Now I can guess ranges really well and I would bet they could get rid of your bolt throwers and maybe 5 LG on a bad day. Next your eagles come in and occupy the cannons for enough time till your fast cav hit my lines, the eagles will die in one turn but you'll have charged with your cav. On any given day I take 2 units of 25 flallagents and 2 units of spearmen of 24 with assorted detachments. Add to that a unit of pistollers that will kill one of your cal units if not two.

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 12:01
Remember I said they would only do that on a bad day, normally I take down whole units with these things.

So what I'm trying to say is you're going to have lots of difficulty winning on VP alone, you'd need to route the majority of my army.

Tobias
28-08-2005, 12:08
Yes but untill your cannonsa re gone, I assume you have 2 cannons, I can hide behind forests and stuff, you cna't target me ... And waht about heavens agic or life magic, that will hurt like hell for you ;)

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 12:15
Well I always take a level 4 wizard with 3 dispel scrolls , lets say you've got lots of forests and a hill for your bolt throwers. That means your LSG aren't going to get any shooting done which is a waste of a 300pt unit with bows. If they do move out into the open and they die.

My army is built for people to charge into me, I put free companies infront of the flallagents and my 4 huge units support each other. The only thing that beats this army regularly is chaos with a heap of flying units and close combat units, or a shootier army.

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 12:17
I carry 3 cannons an engineer and 1 mortar.

Nathaniel
28-08-2005, 12:19
See now just curious do you play using the over 2000 rules when you're on 2000 or the under 2000 rules?

Tobias
28-08-2005, 12:22
I play normaal 2000rules, cause I have a lord hea

Well I must say your army is nasty with that, but also imagine many people don't have such army's caust they find it boring to play with ;) I'm assuming not everyone takes 3 cannons ;) And believe me I know waht to do when facing such an army ;) 2 rpb whipe out 1 cannon my eagles the other one, and then my rpb will kill the remaing one, or with my magic ;)

Latro
28-08-2005, 12:48
Well ... at least everybody still talks a good fight :rolleyes:

Nathaniel
29-08-2005, 06:34
No not everyone takes 3 cannons, some Empire armies don't take any at all.

In my case I protect the cannons with the engineer and a free company of 10-20 men.

I think you might need to remember that you can dish out lots of pain but the army you have can't survive in a shooty competition even with the eagles.

Take your army and challenge someone, let me know how you go and be honest.

Tobias
29-08-2005, 10:18
No not everyone takes 3 cannons, some Empire armies don't take any at all.

In my case I protect the cannons with the engineer and a free company of 10-20 men.

I think you might need to remember that you can dish out lots of pain but the army you have can't survive in a shooty competition even with the eagles.

Take your army and challenge someone, let me know how you go and be honest.


I will take it to a tourny next saturday after 3 months not playing warhammer ^^ :P and 6 months not playing HE :P

Tobias
05-09-2005, 08:09
After 3 months not playing warhammer en 6months not playing HE, the time had come and my list came to battle

first battle Ogre Kingdoms
my LSG killed a unit btuchers halve a unit Ironguts and a tyrant ... My whole army holded very well and I had won a massacre :)

Second battle versus empire, well this one was harder cause it had cannons good amgic ehllblasters shooting etc etc ... Well it started badly and herolled very well(killing my archmage 3rd turn cause IF) but in the end I had a draw(but I ahd more VP) LSG killed, some detachments, 1 parent unit, 1 mage and some butchers(he had OK too)


3rd battle versus DE, well he again rolled verygood, killing my archmage one of the last turns, cause he managed to hit 5 shots of his 20 shots hitting on 6's versus my archmage and stuff ... So he died again, but the rest of the army did well, my LSG killed a unit
spearmen, helped to kill an highbron in a chariot and helped to kill the executioners
in the end a massacre

so I was 3rd...
with LSG :P

Nathaniel
06-09-2005, 13:15
Second battle versus empire, well this one was harder cause it had cannons good amgic ehllblasters shooting etc etc ... Well it started badly and herolled very well(killing my archmage 3rd turn cause IF) but in the end I had a draw(but I ahd more VP) LSG killed, some detachments, 1 parent unit, 1 mage and some butchers(he had OK too)

See Empire will generally end up doing that to your army most of the time, I don't think you faced one person that knew how much your seaguard were worth in VP's but congradulations on 3rd.

Tobias
07-09-2005, 17:14
See Empire will generally end up doing that to your army most of the time, I don't think you faced one person that knew how much your seaguard were worth in VP's but congradulations on 3rd.

Well he did, but I outshotted hellblasters and stuff ;) and 1 cannon shot is worthless ... But he had more luck getting IF on my lvl 4 wizard
But it did hold well vs the empire =) next time I could win that one easily =)