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Goq Gar
08-08-2007, 09:27
As we all know, cavalry hit hard, and hit fast. Here, we can discuss tactics in stopping these monstrous units, and above all, stopping brettonian knights (who just somehow seem to be impossible to stop when they want to go somewhere).

Recently I played a few 500 point games against some friends. My brettonian playing "friend" was the obvious winner. With 12 knights he couldnt lose, nobody had anything that could stop him. I came the closest to stopping it (by throwing my entire 500 point army at it, including 20 saurus, 20 skinks, and a salamander). My skink priest was floundered by some magical resistance they had (:wtf:) so uranon's thunderbolt didnt get to fry them all game, and apart from that he just had the minimum units he could (peasants or something I think).

Even by throwing an entire army in it's path, the unit smashed into the saurus (wiping them out on the charge to my dismay) going straight through, turning aroung, charging my skinks, and then the rest of his army chased my skink priest all over the board. Obviously something is wrong when all of that only killed 6 knights.

How do YOU stop knights?

Lord Khabal
08-08-2007, 09:36
4 reaper bolt throwers + highborn on dragon with gauntlet of power... But it's never easy...

why don't you use kroxigors + stegadon combo? (not at 500 pts though...)
let steggy take the chage and counter with krox. or use skinks skirmish screen for the kroks.

Kerill
08-08-2007, 09:49
Bait them with something else and smack them in the flanks. Brets are somewhat overpowered though (at least having the lance formation and a 5+ ward and free champions seem so to me). But the main tactics that work are blocking them with bait, fleeing and countercharging or tarpitting them. The 7th edition swarm rule has made them harder to tarpit although flagellants, giants (to some extent), undead, slayers, greatswords, temple guard and fenbeasts still tend to work for a while.

Cheap units such as light cavalry or warhounds can be used to block and redirect the enemy for a flank/favourable charge.

Fleeing and countercharging with something else is another option.

For your army 20 skinks will do nothing. Army standard should help the saurus hold for a while if the unit is large enough. Kroxigor are excellent knight killers but you will need to sacrifice something else to set up the charge. (skinks/terradons as sacrifice perhaps?)

If 12 knights wiped out 20 saurus on the charge their horses must be pretty damn good. If you had two units of 10 saurus then that's the reason you couldn't stop them. Scar veteran with great weapon and charm of the jaguar warriors (and maybe maiming shield) is excellent against cavalry although unsuported is unlikely to survie long due to combat resolution (against brets anyway). Having said that a flank charge by krox or a full unit of saurus will send them packing. Even a frontal charge by saurus has a decent chance of at least holding and maybe winning. They have 2S3 attacks, you have 2S4 per model, they have 2+ save but you have T4 and a 4+ save, the odds are with the saurus. Getting the charge needs the sacrifice though.

If your priest is having trouble, power stones or a skink priest mate could help.

Crube
08-08-2007, 10:00
With Wood Elves, (and presumably other armies too) it's about trying to get the knights where you want them.

Positioning smaller inexpensive units where they have to be charged, and then let them flee, so they are in a position to be charged by a couple fo units the following turn....

Peppering them with missile fire i also useful to whittle them down.

In my WE army, I have quite a few units, so even if the knights charge 1 and destroy it, it's not a huge loss, s there's still many more to take their place. By having manoeuvrable units, I can get behind the knights, and can often get a flank and rear charge on the same unit of knights...

I agree, they are tricky though, and require some special thought

Neknoh
08-08-2007, 10:02
Well, chaos generally have very few problems, a Spawn or a unit of Dragon Ogres, or a Giant, or a Shaggoth, or a unit of Minotaurs will all work the very same way if positioned out of the charge arc, they will cause the enemy units of Knights to shunn that area like the plague

Goq Gar
08-08-2007, 11:05
If 12 knights wiped out 20 saurus on the charge their horses must be pretty damn good. If you had two units of 10 saurus then that's the reason you couldn't stop them.

had 2 units of 10, I had to for tactics purposes (even though I swore never to take a unit below 20 when I started, it was a necessity.)

If I had taken a unit of 20, he would have just run circles around it anyway, peppering it with his little archer unit.

In the past my tactic against cavalry was "horde of skinks", but ever since they increased the points cost from 2.5 to 6 a "horde of skinks" isn't possible in less than 2k.

Turning brettonian knights into a heavily armoured group of pin-cushions is difficult to do as knights just don't like getting shot, they prefer to crush all small lizards with blowpipes in their path.

I think my best chance is to get as many skinks as possible, or use your idea with the kroxigors.

Urgat
08-08-2007, 11:21
Never had probs with bretonnians.
My first weapon is fanatics. If they fail (and, for some reason, i'm lucky with them when I face bretonians, so they rarely do), I put units of baiting wolf riders (like at a 45° angle or something)so the bretonian has no option but charge, my wolves flee, and I get flank charges. Bolt throwers and doomdivers work wonder too, and so do charriots when working in tandem. And trolls can vomit. And giants can stump them. Ok, I think O&G are the best army to play against them.
I like them Brets actually, they always provide fun battles with my orcs and gobs.

_Lucian_
08-08-2007, 12:45
Brets can be a pain but there is another unit which can often take them out..
other knights. although they get large rank bonuses without the charge the lance formation is more of a hindrance.. once pinned down you can start to surround them and get units in the flank. As a lizardman your probabully stuffed at only 500pt games unless you do take a saurus with great weapon and jaguar charm like already stated..

Finnigan2004
08-08-2007, 14:17
I'm not so sure about using lots of skinks-- they're slower than knights and even with poison, they will have to be really lucky to hurt them with the ward and armour saves. Part of the problem is that I do not think lizard men will perform as well at 500 points as Brettonians, but since that is the points value you are playing we can put that aside.

Tactically, I think that a sacred host of Sotek would do far better against knights because their priests gain access to the lore of beasts (especially if you roll a "4", but all around better in my opinion-- the bolt thrower spell is cool against lances and the bears anger is nasty on heroes), but let's assume that you don't want to paint red crests on your skinks. I think that in addition to kroxigors, terradons might be really helpful march blocking his units and flank charging. A saurus champion with a two handed weapon and the gleaming pendant of chotec in your saurus unit might be a nasty surprise for him too when he charges in. I think that the best advice though would be to try to play with more points because the game is balanced better closer to 2000 or so points in my opinion.

King Thurgun
08-08-2007, 14:33
@ Goq Gar: Did your bretonnian player have a damsel in his knight unit? She would give them magic resistance. Also, throwing skirmishing skinks onto the flanks of the bretonnian lance only gives the bretonnians more things to kill and thus rack up combat rez. You have to flank charge with something that's survivable and has the ability to deny rank bonuses.

There are many ways of stopping knights, but warmachines, magic and redirectors are the best. Warmachines probably win this contest, they just beat the hell out of knights. Ignore armor, kill multiple knights per shot, long range, they're ideal. Bretonnians have the ward save to defend against them, but they also have to spend the first turn praying, meaning your warmachines get another round of shooting.

Magic is another good option. Lore of metal kills knights, period. Heavens is good too, as is death/shadow. Pit of shades does wonders on I3 knights.

Redirecting, of all of these, is your most reliable option. Cavalry MUST get the charge, or ranked units will easily beat them. Redirecting and positioning your army carefully eliminates this advantage.

Bretonnians (and other cavalry heavy armies) require a different set of tactics/new way of thinking/maybe even a different army composition to beat, but that doesn't make them cheesey, just requiring a different mindset to play. An army that actually changes games from the norm is not a bad thing :D

Cragspyder
08-08-2007, 15:19
In my opinion this is what you should have done to defeat them.

So, you had a unit of 2 units of 10 Saurus, 20 Skinks and a Salamander, and a Skink Priest, right?

As has been noted before in the thread, you should probably switch that setup to 2 units of 10 Skinks and a unit of 20 Saurus. The Saurus do have a good chance of holding so you might be able to take him straight up as he will be wounding your Saurus on 3's instead of the regular 2's, and his horses are likely to get no kills. (wounding on 5's and they will get the full 4+ save).

Regardless, send your Salamander and 1 unit of Skinks after the peasant bowmen. Skinks simply destroy no-armour units and Salamanders deal with low toughness units anyways. Send the second group of skinks after the Knights. Spread them out to block LOS to the Saurus, and get right up in the face of the Knights so they can't charge anything other then the Skinks. Offset the Saurus slightly to the side, so the knights cannot draw a line straight forward from their front to any part of the Saurus unit, or alternatively keep the Saurus 19 or so inches from the front of the Bretonnian unit.

Now the Knights will either have to try to move around the Skinks (which they will never do as they are marchblocked and they are being peppered by blowpipes or javelins besides.), or they will have to charge the Skinks.

When they charge, flee with the skinks. The Bretonnians will catch them, and then be forced to move their full charge distance (16'') straight forward. That should put them within charge range of the Saurus if you have placed them correctly. Don't let your opponent try any of the old 'Redirecting Charges' crap on you, those rules are defunct now and the chargers only get a new charge if they hit an enemy unit that is straight ahead. Ask him to take a look at the 'Enemy in the Way!' section of the Movement rules (pg. 23 of the BRB, not sure about the Little RB).

Now, since the Saurus have a charge of only 8'', the Bretonnian player might flee, of course, but he's already playing into your hands by then. One, he may not rally the Knights next turn, or two, he might roll low and your Saurus will automatically destroy them. Either way, he's lost his Ward Save (don't forget that if Brets flee they lose the save), and you can just put the Salamander in the way next time (he should be finished eating the Peasant Bowmen by now), and do the exact same thing.

So, you lose about 70 or 80 points and he loses his Knights. Good deal.

Deacon Bane
08-08-2007, 15:25
The last time I played Brets, I used HE (1000 pts). I hid a 7 man unit of shadow warriors in some trees and march blocked them for three turns. Meanwhile I shot up his peasants with this same unit. This allowed me to bring down his Flying Knights with the RBT and Silver helms. The SW eventually got crushed but then my Helms were able to close and get the charge. Your skinks could play a similiar roll, depending on terrain. Slow Cavalry down and like everyone else says position them where it is most benificial.

Spoonie
08-08-2007, 15:59
Don't let your opponent try any of the old 'Redirecting Charges' crap on you, those rules are defunct now and the chargers only get a new charge if they hit an enemy unit that is straight ahead.

I'm not too practiced in fantasy, but since the skinks are skirmishers, don't they have to line up to wherever the knights decide to charge them? Meaning the saurus *would* be directly in front of them if they so pleased? Either way, of course no plan survives contact and all that, but I agree with the basic principles - redirect them into getting charged. Sacrifice whatever you have to, as it seems like those knights are basically his entire list.

Gambit
08-08-2007, 16:25
The last time I played Brets, I used HE (1000 pts). I hid a 7 man unit of shadow warriors in some trees and march blocked them for three turns. Meanwhile I shot up his peasants with this same unit. This allowed me to bring down his Flying Knights with the RBT and Silver helms. The SW eventually got crushed but then my Helms were able to close and get the charge. Your skinks could play a similiar roll, depending on terrain. Slow Cavalry down and like everyone else says position them where it is most benificial.

You hit on something that has yet to really be mentioned. Terrain is your best friend vs. cavalry. Skinks can scout and march block while in the safety of terrain. Force the cavalry into a bottle-neck to bog them down, and use terrain to protect your flanks. It's the best way to make cavalry come to you on your terms.

Da Black Gobbo
08-08-2007, 17:32
fast calvary (wolves) to slow them down, spear chukkas to kill some of them, fanatics to stop them that's it.

Goq Gar
08-08-2007, 17:51
This thread isn't really meant to focus on talking about 500 point lizardmen armies, more on combating cavalry in general, so let's focus.

First:
Yes he had a damsel, and i was referring to the old codex where skinks cost 2.5 points and could shoot pretty much anything to death in such numbers, even bret knights.

The problem with brettonian cavalry is that, for such a good unit, they make up 2/3ds of the brettonian codex, and everything else is designed to support cavalry. That, and for how good they are, they aren't too expensive either.

Every army should have a way to combat most other armies, but most armies also have an army they are just naturally weak against. Unluckily that's brets for me.

Now, let's focus on how, in general, you can stop cavalry.

From my own experience, a horde of skink shooting in the past worked, but now skinks are too expensive, so I now try to employ a hammer and anvil tactic if possible. (at 500 points, it's not, but this advice would do well for any army at 1k or more facing cavalry.)

Hammer and anvil:

Two units of the appropriate amount of saurus (2 units of twenty in 1k, 2 units of thirty in 2k, etc.) set up side by side, but far enough apart. In the new fantasy rules, a cavalry unit cant charge them both at the same time f theyre far enough apart, but not too far. One unit takes the charge, and since both (should) have quetzl and sotek marks, if either one charges the flank once the other unit is engaged, then they attack with a vicious 15 attacks (thanks to sotek) and have a chance of killing them at S4, giving them a 3+ save instead of 2+, and in the past this tactic has served me well, working about 50% of the time, the other 50% the cavalry unit is severely weakened before he destroys my saurus.

Obviously that tactic wouldnt work in a well rounded list in 500 points, but otherwise it works.

How could other armies use this tactic? Dwarves could take advantage of an extremely tough pair of units and do the same, and I know for a fact Storm Vermin can hold their own in large enough units (and backed up by a few leadership increasing things), do you think this tactic could work wide-spread?

sulla
08-08-2007, 19:10
Just field all your infantry in buildings and shoot/magic his knights.

Goq Gar
08-08-2007, 19:26
That would work in the right situation, but buildings aren't always available, and in my experience, a damsel and knights are never far apart in a brettonian army, so magic isn't always a possibility either. As for shooting, I dont know many shooting weapons that can kill knights easily.

I think about half of the armies in Fantasy have something like a Kroxigor or Troll unit, and with it's high strength something like that is a very good knight killer, reducing it's save to something reasonable. High strength attacks are probably the way to go.

Airlith
08-08-2007, 22:12
I play VC and really I cant stop Brets to save my life. Its mostly just the grail knights with that damn battle standard the never lets you outnumber or get rank bonus. But in general tarpit is my answer to knights of any kind. Hold them then mob them.

captaincortez
08-08-2007, 22:24
Using Empire, I blast the holy hell out of knights. Blessing you say? Whatever, you can have a 5+...I mean 6+ ward all day long. Then that unit of 12 knights is now 6 charging my ranked up, detachment supported units.

Dead Man Walking
08-08-2007, 22:50
Dwarfs - Hammerers with imune to fear and terror banner and taking ldrship on 1d6. A big block of 20 slayers. If it can't break calvary is useless.

Lizards - Use a unit of cold ones with the banner for 1d6 extra movement resulting in charge into calvary. Calvary is nothing if its not doing the charging. Terradons to marchblock. Skinks to marchblock, harass and run from charges. 4xkroxigors which can charge through skinks. Stegadons.

Slaanesh, spells will be what you need.

Orcs and Gobbos. My favorite method for dealing with brits is to place a gobbo hero warboss as your general on a giant spider in a unit of spider riders. Give him the 10 pnt magic item that adds an additional -3 to armor save and any equipment that makes him a better fighter. Hide the spiders a little more than 2"'s inside terrain and complain that you don't dare come out because you will get crushed. Once your opponents flank is exposed declare a waaaah! You roll and will be able to see through the terrain to declare a charge (If you dont completely clear it) and slam into your opponent. Now your warboss gets str 4 attacks which are -4 to armor save. Since it is strength 4 your opponent cant take the ladys blessing 5+ ward, only the 6+ ward save. So they only get a 6+ save and a 6+ ward save. Then you get all your poison and spear attacks and a combat resolution of 2 wounds will win the combat. Since he is general he auto waaaghs!

I used that combo on a player to break 3 elite units of britonians one after the other in domino style.

Lantern
08-08-2007, 22:52
As we all know, cavalry hit hard, and hit fast. Here, we can discuss tactics in stopping these monstrous units, and above all, stopping brettonian knights (who just somehow seem to be impossible to stop when they want to go somewhere).




I think in part, you have answered your own question there. If you can't stop them getting where they want to go, don't try, let them get there, and then retailiate. The best you can maybe do is slow them down from getting there.

A lot of armies have flyers, and even if you dont have them in units, you can normally take a character that can fly on some monster or other. Even before I had access to Pegasus Knight units, I always fielded 2 characters on them so as to slow down enemies and take on warmachines/mages. I see no reason that this would not work for other armies in the modern era or Warhammer.

Cheap, fast moving (or scouting) and expendable units would help here too, slowing down march moves, harrassing flanks and causing the critical casualty to reduce ranks, important as most Bretonnian units use 9 man blocks, 1 casualty removes a rank and takes them to unit strength 16. In most cases, they will be charging blocks of 20 infantry, so this starts with 2 in your favour before blows are struck (every little helps).

If they do look likely to charge your biggest, baddest unit and seem likely to win as well, then in your turn, tilt them at an angle that will have the Bretonnians either move across the battlefield to a useless location, or better yet, end up sitting in front of another killer unit (be it your own cavalry, massive infantry unit, or warmachine). Remember,when you get the charge, the knights will only get 4 attacks at most from a basic unit, and thats assuming you dont kill any of them.

MrTrath
12-08-2007, 02:43
Against heavily armored units, black powder and magic are your best friends. If you happen to get Spirit of the Forge, you can potentially wipe out the entire unit of cavalry in one blow. Also, if you're playng with anything that slices through ranks (i.e. cannons or bolt throwers), try to get the cavalry in a position so that you can pop a shot into their flank.

Cragspyder
12-08-2007, 04:21
I'm not too practiced in fantasy, but since the skinks are skirmishers, don't they have to line up to wherever the knights decide to charge them? Meaning the saurus *would* be directly in front of them if they so pleased? Either way, of course no plan survives contact and all that, but I agree with the basic principles - redirect them into getting charged. Sacrifice whatever you have to, as it seems like those knights are basically his entire list.

The way I understand it, this is about how it works.

The Brettonians declare a charge against the Skink unit blocking its path.

The Lizardmen player chooses 'flee' as a charge reaction for the Skinks. Now he has to roll his flee distance, on 2d6, and the unit moves that distance directly away from the Knights.

Likely that will still put the Skinks within the 16'' charge range of the Bretonnians, so the Bretonnians destroy the unit and move their full 16'' through the former location of the dead Skink unit. So, the Brettonian ends ups 16'' straight forward, with a Saurus unit ready to charge him.

As for beating Cavalry, force them to charge a low-points, weak unit, then flee with the weak unit. The Knights will move 16'' straight forward, destroying your fleeing unit but allowing them to be charged by pretty much any block unit or a unit of Knight-killers like Kroxigor and win. You could also make them end up in difficult terrain or off the board if necessary, allowing you some time to mop up some other parts of his force.

I have trouble with Knights as Tomb Kings, but that's because I can't choose flee :) I have to take the charge with some Light Horsemen, have them get destroyed, and then either have my opponent choose not to overrun or overrun a random distance. Much harder to set up, but hey, that's what all those incantations are for I guess.

StormCrow
12-08-2007, 05:19
With tomb kings it isn't too hard, just have massive blocks that aren't nigh on impossible to crumble in 1 round then hit the flanks to reclaim the advantage. With orcs and goblins it's trickier. I'll try to draw up a diagram to show how i manage:

B = Bretonnian knights
G = night goblins with fanatics
O = Orcs
S = black orcs/savage boar boys




BBB
BBB
BBB

GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG

OOOOO SSSSSS
OOOOO

Okay now basically what i'll do is let the brets charge the goblins, which will hopefully have all their fanatics. If not i'll hold with them anyway and let the brets rip them apart. After the combat when the goblins flee the brets have 2options, either restrain and get hit hard by the black orcs/savage orc boars and orc unit or pursue on from the goblins and be counter charged by the boars/black orcs in the next round. Either way the ensuing combat usually ends in my favour and my losses are miniscule compared to those of the bretonnians. Basically it's a bait and trap. Hope that makes sense

Ajit
12-08-2007, 07:54
Dwarfs - Hammerers with imune to fear and terror banner and taking ldrship on 1d6. A big block of 20 slayers. If it can't break calvary is useless.

Lizards - Use a unit of cold ones with the banner for 1d6 extra movement resulting in charge into calvary. Calvary is nothing if its not doing the charging. Terradons to marchblock. Skinks to marchblock, harass and run from charges. 4xkroxigors which can charge through skinks. Stegadons.

Slaanesh, spells will be what you need.

Orcs and Gobbos. My favorite method for dealing with brits is to place a gobbo hero warboss as your general on a giant spider in a unit of spider riders. Give him the 10 pnt magic item that adds an additional -3 to armor save and any equipment that makes him a better fighter. Hide the spiders a little more than 2"'s inside terrain and complain that you don't dare come out because you will get crushed. Once your opponents flank is exposed declare a waaaah! You roll and will be able to see through the terrain to declare a charge (If you dont completely clear it) and slam into your opponent. Now your warboss gets str 4 attacks which are -4 to armor save. Since it is strength 4 your opponent cant take the ladys blessing 5+ ward, only the 6+ ward save. So they only get a 6+ save and a 6+ ward save. Then you get all your poison and spear attacks and a combat resolution of 2 wounds will win the combat. Since he is general he auto waaaghs!

I used that combo on a player to break 3 elite units of britonians one after the other in domino style.

I thought the auto Waaagh! was for the Orc warbosses. Not goblin.

Spoonie
12-08-2007, 09:52
No it's the general

fearchanges
12-08-2007, 11:32
Well let's see. I play 5 armies, so I'll take them step by step.

With my LM I usually go for the Kroxigors as the tin-can openers with a screen of skinks in front of them, because they can charge through the screen if needed and if the skinks are charged, just flee and keep the Kroxigors just out of reach from his knights in case of re-directing the charge.
A Scar/vet with the charm and gw also does the thing against small units of 5 knights without command used for countercharges, which you see a lot in heavy gun-line empire armies.

Beastmen are packed with S6/7 hitters like Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres, Shaggoth, Giant. The trick is to set up the charges with baits and screens using your Herds, hounds and spawns. A Beast herd loaded with Characters with gw is also nice, I usually field a Beast lord, bray-shaman with the bears anger and another wargor with gw and the dark heart in 1 herd. Their 360 degrees sight and charge is very handy.

With Empire is playing cheese with a lot of great cannons the best thing to do. A steamtank is also a option.
But a more regular option is baiting them with your detachments getting on their flanks with heavy hitters like Greatswords and Flaggelants.
In a 2K game I usually field a unit of 25 Swordsmen with warbanner and joined by a BSB and Warrior priest as centre and they can take a heavy charge of almost anything with their CR of 6/7, especially with a countercharge from the halberdiers as support.

The VC are easy, Skellies as tarpit, and flanking them with black knights.
Just donīt let his cavalty units get on your flanks. Tarpitting them with a lot of zombies and screaming them to death with a banshee also does the trick.
A BSB comes in handy to save that extra wound from CR when he charges.

I started lately a border patrol of Wood Elves and noticed that peppering him with a lot of arrows does it and if needed countercharge him with the wardancers and Noble to finish him. De Dryads can also do the trick by taking the charge and hope you throw a good 5+ ward save.

I hope thatīs it, to keep it short now, Just bait them and heavy hit them back, donīt let them get the charge on your valuable units.

Eldem
13-08-2007, 02:15
I have founf the best thing to handle calvary rather than just a nice bolt thrower to the face is to do one of two options.

The first is to divide and conqure.
Just about all calvary in the game need either combined charges or supporting units to win a combat especially from the front. Now if you are getting flanked by the calvary thats a different matter, Especially with the Brettonians. A combined calvary charge can just about mulch anything, and historically and in reality it would. The key to stopping the clavary is to divide them up. All armies in the game have something that can stand up to an indivudual calvary charge. But Bretts are a little different. The dividing them up is still very important. I wil not tell you how to do this as everyone has different styles (feints, flyers, swarms etc.) But if you can single out units of calvary have them charge and then charge them back.

The seconed option is to tarpit.
This means swarms, undead, and unbreakable units and not everyone has access to these. Lizardmen do however. A Brett player wil be hard pressed to do the nine wounds on the charge it needs to completely wipe out a swarm. Let alone large units of swarms. Vampires and Tomb kings can also Tarpit. Zombies work great for this for the vampire player. Sure the things will redie like it is going out of fashion but you can summon them up at an even greater rate. Tomb Kings same thing. And finally Slayers, daemons, anything that won;t run will work great for this. now once you have them tarpitted on their turn. Its your turn to charge them.

CHOOBER SNIPES
15-08-2007, 18:39
first of all, in your 500 pt. game, i think you may have been cheated, or he doesnt know the rules well. couldnt have had a damsel as you a BSB and a general are REQUIRED. The general has to have highest leadership, so it couldnt be a damsel. And if he tried to fit 2 paladins and a damsel and 12 knights and peasants, he needs to check points cost.
Also, the divide and conquer method can work, but about the necessity of support charges, its not true. A brettonian knight unit of 8 and one paladin BSB can be amazing. Give the unit a warbanner, pallie virtue that does +1 combat res and a wyrmlance (just a magical lance that he can take; he cant take mundane ones) and charge. static res of 2 ranks+ 2 warbanner+ 1 BSB+ 1 virtue of duty + 1 usually outnumber + kills. static 7+kills

Highborn
16-08-2007, 02:06
Border Patrol rules specifically exclude Bretonnians from needing a BSB if I remember correctly, so a damsel could well have been the man's general. Even if he had a BSB, a damsel could have been his general unless the Bretonnian book specifically prohibits it - the fact that the BSB has higher leadership than the damsel means nothing.

CHOOBER SNIPES
16-08-2007, 02:19
it says in the book (i think any book) that the general HAS to be the model with the highest leadership in the army, and also sry i didnt know it was border patrol. dont know for sure, im a noob, but you might wanna check it

Malorian
16-08-2007, 02:22
Step 1: Play bigger games. 500 is for learners and bias's like this will always happen.

Step 2: Start taken throw away units and begin charge-baiting and counter charging.

Step 3: Start winning.

catbarf
16-08-2007, 02:26
Best way to stop cavalry? Bull Rhinox Riders. Big, fast, tough, and scary as hell. Plus anyone except the Brets can take them.

Nkari
16-08-2007, 09:33
Simple.. Place your skinks about 6inches in front of your saurus block.. when he charges skinks, flee and hope you dont roll like CRAP with your saurus panic roll cause of fleeing frendlies.. then counter charge him.. simple effective and works most of the time.

huitzilopochtli
16-08-2007, 20:27
make your saurus immune to psychology and do the skink thing. ;)

best ways to counteract cavalry...
1) march blocking flyers and skirmishers to slow them down
2) shoot them, preferably with seige weapons
3) (VCs only) raise a unit of skeletons in their side and charge them with the book of arkhon to hold them up indefinitely

and my personal favourite....
4) with more cavalry! (example; 5 COR with warbanner charge 8 black knights, kill entire first rank, (four) and destroy the rest on CR)

winter has ended
16-08-2007, 20:41
i since i play with orcs and gobbos find the bets thing to stop them is
FANATICS !!!!!!! lol
used them today on mallus darkblade and a unit of 9 cold ones, killed them all with 4 of the devils, he never even made combat

huitzilopochtli
16-08-2007, 22:08
ouch
:eek::eek::eek:

Empyrium
17-08-2007, 06:08
Brets are definitely one of the harder armies to face with a "balanced" list or in low point games... there are a few tricks though. I'll try to point out somethings that haven't been really mentioned yet that I find helpful. Basically, obstacles and forests are your friends here. If you are defending an obstacle, then when his knights charge you, they lose all bonuses from charging. For Lizard Men, forests are a great way to slow them down. Just deploy a unit of skinks in or behind it to act as march blockers for a turn or two. Also, remember that you have to see something before you can charge it, and los in forests are ... limited...
As Snipes already said, you might have gotten cheated too. You mentioned something about a 5+ ward save that they had, but if I remember right, they only get that against attacks that are S5 or higher. Since you didn't have anything that high, his wards save should have been 6+. Course, I could be wrong, but you may want to read his army book anyways.

Wings of Doom
17-08-2007, 12:22
Played a game earlier- baited a unit of Cold One Knights into a unit of gobbos, who got beaten and chased off the board. In my turn I spun a couple of expendable pump wagons over to where the knights would come in, effectively boxing them in place. They appear, and cannot do anything, and get flanked on each side in my turn.

Pump-pump-pump.

Effectively just baiting them, but taking them off the board gives you a turn to set up your charge.

Chicago Slim
17-08-2007, 14:11
One important point about that 12-pack of KotR, which is different from most cavalry: they DO have 4-5 points of static CR (3 ranks, a banner, and at US 24 very likely numbers). So, you can't really just front-charge them with your own unit of cavalry... A flank-charge with cavalry will work fine, though you're unlikely to break them with it (your flank + banner matches their numbers + banner, so it's down to wounds, which is unlikely to be enough to give him much trouble on the break test).

The hammer-and-anvil still works, but only if you have a very reliable anvil: stubborn on a 9 or above (maybe stubborn 8 with a reroll), or an unbreakable unit. Doesn't have to be a huge unit (he gets 19-23 attacks on the charge, but 9 of them are horses, so he's unlikely to do much more than 10 wounds), but a group of 10 skeletons isn't going to cut it: he'll kill them a lot, evaporate the rest with combat resolution, and overrun out of your hammer's counter-charge range.

Normal/breakable infantry CANNOT serve as your anvil here. Consider, say, 25 Orc Boyz: when charged by a 12-pack of KotR, the Boyz will probably suffer 4-5 wounds (that's okay, they're strike-backs weren't going to kill a knight anyway). That means they're taking a break test on a 4 or 5, on a GOOD day (with the Ld 9 general nearby, and good luck on the wounding). Same math follows for your Saurus, by the way; cold-blooded is good, but cold-blooded needing a 4? Not so good.

One strategic suggestion I haven't seen yet is the one I use for any big scary crap on the table: a containment policy. Use march-blocking and cheep troops set up at odd angles to keep the KotR out of much fighting. If you hold that 500 point unit to picking up two small (125 point) targets all game, then (in a real game, with 1500 points or more) you have a numerical advantage over the rest of his army...

A smart Bret player won't take just any bait, either: he's simply not going to charge your 36 point unit of warhounds. So, give him a clear line to that bolt thrower on the hill: if he takes it, you're out 35-100 points (depending on what army you're playing), but next turn, he'll have to turn around (or come back onto the board, if he over-ran), and while he is, you're moving something in to threaten his flanks (and getting your troops out of his LOS or charge range!)

In general, if you can hold a big cavalry unit down to two charges per game, and they're both little wimpy units, you should do fine. Again, this obviously doesn't work in a 500 point game where that's all he brought. In a 1500 point game, where he brings three of those, then you're going to need to take at least one of them-- that's where manuevering to his flanks comes in...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-08-2007, 20:16
I play VC and really I cant stop Brets to save my life.

Really? I think VC are one of the best armies against Bretonnians because they can easily tarpit them with their core zombies and skeletons (which can be replenished). Then move the wights in and beat the crap out of them...