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TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 15:33
There's a thread on Dakka with some discussion about possible rumors from GD Germany, I believe. Here's the meat of it:


Has anyone goto GamesDay and hear additional rumors besides those below for the upcoming Necron release in 2008? They say its going to be a release similar to Tau Empires - fewer new model and streamlining rules. I have heard:

* WBB replaced with FNP.
* Necron Warriors and Immortals get SAP, T increase by 1, and point increase.
* Phase Out gone!
* Three different options of Necron Lords.
* Veil is nerfed (sends unit to reserve, but can deep-strike next turn).
* One new HS unit choice.

I don't see how Phase Out can be gone - I'd just play C'Tan and 3 Monoliths if that were to happen.... I'm sure if they do that, they would take that into account.

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 15:41
What does SAP stand for?

The FNP rumour came up on warseer a few months ago, with a fairly large debate going on about it.

Hellebore

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 15:41
Oh dear god, WBB is the essence of the Necron army! Without it a massive portion of their character will be gone. Imagine if space marines lost ATSKNF!

WTF is SAP?? No new models except one HS choice? Wtf is the point then?? They already have far too few models in their range which leads to people complaining that they're boring!

Phew.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 15:44
SAP = Slow and Purposeful.

Crube
08-08-2007, 15:44
Also, i to feel that if Necrons are being redone, they need a bit more variety in troop and fast attack choices, not so much teh Heavy... but still, a new necron has to be a start...


WBB going is, I feel, "a bad thing" Part of the whole character to be honest - not sure FNP is an adequate replecement...ah well - we'll see...

megamat008
08-08-2007, 15:44
I guess that SAP is Slow and Purposeful, as the necrons should always have been, like they were done in Dawn of War Dark Crusade.

studderigdave
08-08-2007, 15:45
slow and purposeful im guesing

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 15:45
Ugh.

I sincerely hope people just pulled these rumours out of their ass.

Panic
08-08-2007, 15:49
If We'll Be Back was removed from Necrons... wow... I just can't imagine that.

Warriors and Immortals getting Slow & Purposeful kind of makes sense I guess.

Phase Out being gone is just a big 'no' from me if it is true.

3 different types of Necron Lord seems interesting... new models maybe other than the one that will soon come out with the Res-Orb?

A new Heavy Support choice would be great but of course, depends what it is... more cheese possibly?

Darnok
08-08-2007, 15:49
SAP + FNP might be another good way to represent the Necrons on the battlefield. If they indeed have +1 T it could be enough to replace WBB. We should wait and see what they do with army composition in the list and the actual point costs.

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 15:51
What about Flayed Ones etc? Why would the warriors bodies suddenly become tougher than theirs when all that's different is claws instead of hands?

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 15:56
This arguement raged the last time FNP was mentioned.

WBB and FNP are, ruleswise identical, it's just the point in the game they come into effect is different. One happens at the beginning of the turn, the other at the time the wound is taken.

I don't know about you, but I'm not keen on lying my models down on the table to show they've been injured, I spend a lot of time painting them and don't like seeing it get scratched off.

Search for the original thread regarding FNP vs WBB - in my mind the advantages far out way the disadvantages. It's another streamlining.

I've always thought that the necrons should be SaP. But then I've always argued that the flayer should be heavy 1 instead of rapid fire (thus no 2 shots at 12" and always 1 shot at 24") and have a sort of mini rending special rule (ie on a 6 to hit it counts as ap1).


Hellebore

Sureshot05
08-08-2007, 15:56
Just to chime in that I too am hoping that they do not get FNP instead of "We'll be back"

It would be disasterous and destroy one of my favourite things about the Necrons. After the last rumour I spoke with those who I know that play Necrons and they have all said that they would be devastated if they lost WBB as it would "take the heart and soul" of their army (and that was the most ironic statement I have ever heard from Necron players ;) ). I can understand the wish to simplify the rules, but each army should be allowed to keep its own global special rule like the marines get "And they shall know no fear."

As for SAP, I think that would slow playing the army up no end, but would be very characterful.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
08-08-2007, 15:57
We'll Be Back is lame and only a minority if people will miss it IMO. If Necrons are toughness 5 standard, then this means they'll get a 4+ Feel No Pain save from lascannons without the need for a Ressurection Orb.

Souleater
08-08-2007, 15:58
Unk, that seems like a significant boost to Necron Power.

Losing WBB and Phase Out is a bit chunk out of the army's character. I hope they stay.

I think this 'streamlining' malarky is going too far.

Ravenous
08-08-2007, 15:58
Feel no pain - makes sense since the current WWB is its own phase, and slows the game down. With FnP its basically the same thing as WWB but faster. I say go for it.

Slow and Purposeful - not sure about this one, current necrons can be one of the fastest armies in the game, I guess GW wants them to be an army of dumpties.

+1 toughness and point increase - Yikes T5 warriors and T6 immortals, thats a brand new reason hate necrons. The point increase seems unecessary as they are already few in number. Perhaps GW wants to represent them as being a small and rare sight? (stupid). Lets just hope they dont get rending because they want to simplify the rules to drastically dumb levels. Think of the adds! "40K its easier then Hungry Hungry Hippos!"

3 different lords - ... isnt there already? (Ctan, Destroyer, foot sloggin) Spider lord perhaps?

Nerfed Veil - Sends a unit off the table for a turn? It still gets a unit out of combat I bet. Not that bad.

New HS choice - The minilith? :P that or it could be the scorpion CC thing they had drawn up during the the last codex.

No more phase out? - Okay, wasnt really ever an issue, at least now if you are hammering a necron player you both get to play a full 6 turn game.

Isambard
08-08-2007, 15:59
What difference does it REALLY make? You get a 4+ save after you take the wound, not at the start of the turn. Get over it.

Wraith
08-08-2007, 16:00
Ugh... good and bad, rules get streamlined but, loss of already meagre amount of 'character'...


One new HS unit choice.

Better not be a big(ger) necron spider construct...



What difference does it REALLY make? You get a 4+ save after you take the wound, not at the start of the turn. Get over it.

I think there's a psychological element of "will they, wont they" if they're left on the table.

Optimus732
08-08-2007, 16:04
this is so true !!

shutupSHUTUP!!!
08-08-2007, 16:05
The Necron army will have more tactical options though. They would no longer need to huddle around Lords with Orbs (you might save points from not having to buy an orb to offset the extra price of troopers), the Monolith will probably let you bring troops from reserves out of it's portal (does this combine with the veil?) and you have all your destroyers.

The Necron army would have plenty of options for deployment and movement. Without the need to base armies on avoiding phase-out you can take expensive units with less headaches and and your troops are insanely tough.

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 16:05
It's probably the obelisks that were mentioned in Medusa V. They're basically floating squashed cube shapes with the monolith crystal on top. They're in Epic for necrons and have the same movement as monoliths and particle whip but no flux arcs. Living metal and armour 12 all around. They're meant to protect/distract fire from the monoliths.

So if it does turn out to be just that, a 'minilith' and the rumoured return of the Outsider i'll be massively dissapointed. So much for only skimming the surface in regards to what has awoken from the vast Necron empire.

Sureshot05
08-08-2007, 16:07
This arguement raged the last time FNP was mentioned.

WBB and FNP are, ruleswise identical, it's just the point in the game they come into effect is different. One happens at the beginning of the turn, the other at the time the wound is taken.

I don't know about you, but I'm not keen on lying my models down on the table to show they've been injured, I spend a lot of time painting them and don't like seeing it get scratched off.

Search for the original thread regarding FNP vs WBB - in my mind the advantages far out way the disadvantages. It's another streamlining.

You know, having spelt out to you in simple terms can do wonders for the soul. I'm a little more convinced taht FNP could work now, but I'd be curious as to how they would adjust the monolith reinforcement rule to match. Maybe allow the monolith to grant "Without numbers" to one unit in the game? Res Orb could grant the unit the Lord joins an invulnerable save?

EarlGrey
08-08-2007, 16:07
Surely those who don't like Necrons getting feel no pain can just lay their models down when they take a wound and then make the feel no pain rule once the enemy unit has done shooting (rather than at the beginning of the Necron move phase). For the most part, Feel No Pain and We'll be Back are identical.

Slow and Purposeful is a great idea I think. Those on foot will make a good contrast against the speedier elements of the army, really make for that slow and unstoppable feel (that I think adds a lot more character than "We'll be back").

I would suggest maybe giving them a 4+ save instead of 3+ though. High toughness and feel no pain make them pretty difficult to kill already, and giving them a 4+ save will get rid of the "not another marine army" feel.

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:08
Perhaps the obelisks will come in squadrons?

I wouldn't mind seeing an Elite infiltrator unit, terminator style. A mini flayer lord that follows the same rules as a Callidus assassin. That would be cool. :cool:


You know, having spelt out to you in simple terms can do wonders for the soul. I'm a little more convinced taht FNP could work now, but I'd be curious as to how they would adjust the monolith reinforcement rule to match. Maybe allow the monolith to grant "Without numbers" to one unit in the game? Res Orb could grant the unit the Lord joins an invulnerable save?

There is the psychological effect of seeing them get back up again - certainly the delay gives a better impression of that self repair (it doesn't happen instantly like FNP would represent it).

Hellebore

Son of Morkai
08-08-2007, 16:09
There is a big difference between WBB and FNP...

With WBB, the model falls down and I can't shoot it anymore. With FNP, I get to keep blasting away at it until it really does die.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 16:10
I'm concerned with the possible reduction of mobility. Builds with monoliths/veils are pretty darned mobile. It appears that GW wants necron players to take more warriors and slow the army down. I think a toughness increase is a good counter for that, especially since they'll probably still be pants in assault.

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 16:10
Perhaps the obelisks will come in squadrons?

It's been a while since I read the Necron Epic.pdf but I think that was the case.

Geep
08-08-2007, 16:12
It's not a surprise to swap WBB with FNP- they're so similar anyway.
SaP for the warriors would be good- able to move and still fire effectively. With immortals it's only a disadvantage.
If they increase the toughness it should be more 'across the board' than just Warriors and Immortals, and should be good. Hopefully it won't increase their points too much though- they're still almost just as vulnerable to lascannons, battle cannons, etc.
Sure they'd get a FNP roll now but who didn't give their lords res orbs anyway?

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:13
There is a big difference between WBB and FNP...

With WBB, the model falls down and I can't shoot it anymore. With FNP, I get to keep blasting away at it until it really does die.

Sure, ok. If the unit is shot to a man, then it disappears (unless there are others within 6"). Thus continued fire at a unit of warriors with WBB is better on most occasions because they don't even get the WBB roll as the entire unit has disappeared before the beginning of their next turn.

Hellebore

Souleater
08-08-2007, 16:13
What difference does it REALLY make? You get a 4+ save after you take the wound, not at the start of the turn. Get over it.

FNP means maybe half the unit doesn't go down before they get to strike in assault, making Necron better in assault.

FNP against shooting means still being there to draw more fire, and less likely to be forced to make a break test.

I didn't think it made much difference until somebody pointed out those two examples.

T5, Slow and Purposful Warriors with FNP...I guess they want themt o be harder to kill than Plague Marines...you won't be able to hose them down with Rending, Plasma, etc with the same effect.

*shrugs* I've always enjoyed the WBB stuff. It isn't like the Necron are slowing the game down by looking up all sorts of different stats and ranges for them.

Ravenous
08-08-2007, 16:14
You know, having spelt out to you in simple terms can do wonders for the soul. I'm a little more convinced taht FNP could work now, but I'd be curious as to how they would adjust the monolith reinforcement rule to match. Maybe allow the monolith to grant "Without numbers" to one unit in the game? Res Orb could grant the unit the Lord joins an invulnerable save?

Perhaps the Monolith will no longer grant the re roll on WWB, however the boost in Toughness would off set that. Well lets see.

Current:
18 bolter hits = 9 wounds = 6 save with 3 failed. 1 or 2 get back up from the reroll. We'll say 1 with 2 lost in total.

Toughness 5.
18 bolter hits = 6 wounds with 2 dead.

Pretty much the same, and it makes the monolith less of a main stay in the army, good in some respects bad in others.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 16:15
I would see Plague Marines as being comparable in toughness to Necron Warriors, so perhaps we can use their points cost in the new codex as an indicator. That's a pretty expensive warrior...

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:16
T5, Slow and Purposful Warriors with FNP...I guess they want themt o be harder to kill than Plague Marines...

Shouldn't they be though?

They're giant hulking self-repairing robots running on subspace zeropoint superstring subatomic technorape energy. Somehow I reckon that would make you a little harder than a marine with crabs.:p


but I'd be curious as to how they would adjust the monolith reinforcement rule to match. Maybe allow the monolith to grant "Without numbers" to one unit in the game? Res Orb could grant the unit the Lord joins an invulnerable save?

How does this grab you? When summoning a unit of necrons through a monolith portal, roll a FNP save for every casualty the unit has sustained. Any successful saves are put back in the unit. That would be how I'd do it if I wanted to keep that feature.

Hellebore

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 16:18
They're giant hulking self-repairing robots running on subspace zeropoint superstring subatomic technorape energy. Somehow I reckon that would make you a little harder than a marine with crabs.:p

Hellebore

added to sig

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 16:21
Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't SaP allow them to rapid fire the maximum distance their weapon can reach? I.E 2 STR4 AP5 shots at 24"?

gitburna
08-08-2007, 16:22
Wow, that "minilith/obelisk" type unit sounds dull as hell, modelwise. At least the Monolith has gun turrets on it to jag the profile up a bit. Heres me personally hoping they come up with something more interesting.

Ravenous
08-08-2007, 16:24
Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't SaP allow them to rapid fire the maximum distance their weapon can reach? I.E 2 STR4 AP5 shots at 24"?

That is correct they would all have stormbolter-esq flayers at that point.

*EDIT*
I stand corrected,

Its once at 24" and twice at 12" and you can still move and assault while doing so.

ancient god
08-08-2007, 16:26
That is correct they would all have stormbolter-esq flayers at that point.

...except the fact that rapid fire weapons only shoot once at more than 12". So you'd always be able to shoot once at 24" range or twice at 12".

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:26
Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't SaP allow them to rapid fire the maximum distance their weapon can reach? I.E 2 STR4 AP5 shots at 24"?

Fortunately no, SaP only allows the model to count as stationary when it fires (as rapid fire may only be done up to 12" away, it simply means they can fire once up to full range even if they move).

SAP is actually a little disadvantageous for them, as it removes an attack for charging and makes them move as if in difficult terrain for that extra shot.

However, I reckon it is more in character than the point during the game WBB is rolled for...

Hellebore

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 16:26
Are you sure? The weapon profile doesn't change, you just get to shoot as if you're stationary which means one shot at 24 or 2 at 12.

Turanos
08-08-2007, 16:27
Personally, I think removing WBB and Phase Out would really remove the entire style of the Necrons. They'd become even more like slower, tougher Space Marines. Plus, at first glance WBB and FNP seem the same, but as has been pointed out it really does make a difference, and removes even more of the uniqueness of Necrons in that their basic units would suddenly become a lot better at assault, meaning they're even more like Space Marines v2.

The changes to Warriors and Immortals would just make all Necron army lists MORE similar, when they're already brutally so, with anyone who doesn't take the standard Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers-based lists being seen as nuts and certainly never winning a match.

It's really the lesser-used units like Pariahs, Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Tomb Spyders that need to be messed with, not bloody Warriors and Immortals.

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:29
Er, SAP would make them WORSE at an assault, because they wouldn't get +1A for charging.

So whilst they MIGHT be better because of FNP, they would be much worse because of SAP.

Hellebore

EarlGrey
08-08-2007, 16:29
Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't SaP allow them to rapid fire the maximum distance their weapon can reach? I.E 2 STR4 AP5 shots at 24"?

No, you can only shoot once up to 24".
The benefit with Slow and Purposeful is that you don't count as moving if you move. So any rapid fire weapons may shoot up to their maximum range (only once of course).

gitburna
08-08-2007, 16:33
yeah, overall i think it'll be OK.

Necron warriors'll be so much slower but gain slightly in firepower and *resilience* in assault.

Flayed ones and Wraiths would likely be much stronger with FNP, which is a good thing.

Mainly i'd like to see just what they'll do with Pariahs because they're prohibitively expensive for their in game effectivness.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 16:33
Er, SAP would make them WORSE at an assault, because they wouldn't get +1A for charging.

For some reason, I feel that with SAP Necron Warriors should be able to assault after firing the flayers...

John Wayne II
08-08-2007, 16:39
I like these new changes. FNP is basically like WBB but sligthly better and speeds up the game, and with SAP it really puts the emphasis on the Necrons being a tough, shooting army. I'm sure Flayed Ones, Pariahs et al will get something, we just haven't heard anything about it. I'm glad the 'Crons are getting some love, maybe this time around we'll get a new C'Tan...

Everyone just chill, I don't see the problem swapping an army rule (WBB) for a near identical USR (FNP). As for the loss of phase out...good! Maybe the fluff explanation for this is that the 'Crons are coming out in greater force, and now their forces stick around more, Phase out IMHO always seemed to represent the fact that these were mere Necron raiding forces, who if depleted dissapeared so as to prevent more casualties, and that these forces were just testing the waters against the other races. Now they are strong enough to stick around, which suggests some kind of greater plan by the C'Tan...

ChaosMaster
08-08-2007, 16:40
Has anyone EVER seen a Necron player play a game of 40K without using Veil of Darkness and Resurrection Orb? I mean EVER even one time?! When certain tricks, spells or wargear are so powerful in an army that every single player who plays that army feels compelled to use exactly the same combinations every single time, then that army's Codex needs some changes. Talk about over-powered and boring combinations, the Necrons are seriously in need of a revision that will tempt Necron players to actually try out some of the other wargear, etc. available in their Codex.

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 16:43
Here's the official concept pics for Epic Necrons. I sincerely doubt that we'll see the Aeonic Orb as it would be massive and is used for cutting other titans in half. Same with the Abbatoir. It's like a floating city!

gorgon
08-08-2007, 16:47
Mainly i'd like to see just what they'll do with Pariahs because they're prohibitively expensive for their in game effectivness.

Since I have no shame, I'm going to keep advocating that Pariahs disappear as a unit and get a major revision to become designated fear/anti-psyker weapons embedded in Warrior units. That removes the problem of them competing with Immortals for Troops slots, and it makes a lot more sense -- why would the Necrons group something as precious as Pariah gene carriers in units with big axes to go get slaughtered in close combat...or pasted by a battlecannon round?

I see nothing wrong with an Obelisk. Frankly, it'd be nice to get a cheaper particle whip platform. Give the Tomb Spyder the same treatment they gave the Carnifex and it'd be fine, too.

Xandros
08-08-2007, 16:48
Whatever happens I'd like to see new Pariah models.

I do know they're supposed to be soulless, but they're soulless-soulless in their current incarnation. About as scary as a foodmaster.

unheilig
08-08-2007, 16:53
Phase Out was always a weak rule. As if the designers said 'we made the army too hard to kill, so we threw this rule in there'...

getting rid of it sounds like they balanced the army the way they want, and don't need the quick fix rule anymore.

Alpharius
08-08-2007, 16:54
With the current trend in 40k to "Jervis-ize" all upcoming army lists with a massive helping of bleach and blandness, these rumors becoming true?

Wouldn't surprise me at all...

Hellebore
08-08-2007, 16:55
I have yet to defeat a necron army with victory points - every single victory has been due to phase out.

It is an extremely nasty rule for the necrons, and pretty much said that the army was 'choosing' to lose. Hopefully with its removal I can actually defeat the bastards instead of them letting me win. :mad:

Hellebore

Mojaco
08-08-2007, 16:57
Sounds like plausable rumours. And I think they would make the army a lot simpler in a good way. And yeey to nerfing the orb! It should be a one-use item or something.

Does this mean necrons will follow the ork release?

MoonlightSonata
08-08-2007, 17:02
I thought it always went Xeno/Imperial/Xeno/Imperial? Xeno being interchangable with Chaos and Misc stuff.

Thanatos_elNyx
08-08-2007, 17:06
As much as I think WBB is very characterful it does slow down the game a little and definately there were too many rules questions about it. FNP is a good replacement and its in teh Main rulebook so there should be no arguements.

Phase Out has always been a balancing factor to prevent the C'Tan and 3 Monoliths but it wasn't a good rule and should go. There are other ways to balance an army, perhaps make these units only available at certain point limits.

Warriors and Immortals with SaP is very characterful. I'm not sure a cost increase is warranted, +1 T is nice and all but SaP more than balances it out. FNP and WBB is a straight switch up.

New HS slot is nice and all but a new Troop choice (Or Flayed Ones in the Troops section) would be better.

Billpete002
08-08-2007, 17:12
wow cool rumors, I do hope they get more troops tho, I played the army when it first was made (yes I had the horrible original figs too) then got the codex and new plastic models but they just didn't have a variety of units.

everything felt the same. This is just my opinion on the army but I'm sure others feel there is a good amount of choice. I just believe an army with 1 troop is sorta limited or 2 choices for a HQ (ctan or lord)

true the army stayed close the fluff, it just that the fluff restricted the army to a few choices.

who knows if they came out with more stuff it would be fun to play against - again :D

static grass
08-08-2007, 17:24
Has anyone EVER seen a Necron player play a game of 40K without using Veil of Darkness and Resurrection Orb? I mean EVER even one time?!

I hate the orb. I can not understand what they were thinking. I expect future rumours will be met with words like bland or boring. Well the current list is as about as predictable as a list can get.

In fairness to Cron players their codex is fairly weak so I don't blame them for the spam orb. I am looking forward to Jervis doing this codex.

Buddha777
08-08-2007, 17:26
Can honestly say as a long time Necron player that I am more than fine with both FNP & SAP as it suits the army well, anything to get rid of phase out. Seriously without phase out Necron armies can at least have SOME variety as the whole goal is not to try to keep from disappearing from the battlefield when you have a still functional army left.

Truthfully though beyond just the basic troop Pariahs HAVE to be fixed, and wraiths could use a significant boost. Flayed Ones are pretty 'meh' right now as a choice, and Tomb Spyders are a joke of a unit. This is one of the main reasons why all necron armies look identical as there are only a few units (from an already small selection) that work.

If these factors are fixed and phase out removed I think the Necrons will have MORE character than before as their unit selection is not limited.

Worsle
08-08-2007, 17:33
Necrons are a meq army so maybe that will let them break the cycle though the marines/other cycle has been broken as we have gone from dark angels to chaos then orks so I don't think that system is in place any more (maybe it is one of the Jervis-izations?). Personally rather like the sound of these rumours, FNP would speed up the game and phase out always felt a little silly in game terms (even if it is fluffy). A new necron codex would be great to see would fit in with Brimstones rumours if this came though too.

Hatemonger
08-08-2007, 17:40
Sorry to interrupt the flurry of debate over the Necron "new rules", but... has anyone actually verified where this info came from? Just reading the OP quote, it sounds like someone saying, "These are rumors I read on the intarwebs! Anyone hear anything else?". It does not sound like, "This is a codex overview I personally heard from a game dev." Seems to me like idle speculation; if it was posted here, I'd want it locked for asking a question.

- H8

Starwolf
08-08-2007, 17:44
Budah777 Hits it right on the nose.
Certain unit choices easily are superior to other organisational slot choices. Warriors for troops, Destroyers for fast attack, Monolith for heavy support, Immortals for elite. Almost any other combination severely weakens your Necron army.
Wraiths, flayed ones, pariahs, and tomb spyders need help, and destroyers will probably be nerfed a little, or upped in points.
I like SaP, though, and without phase out the units are probably going to go up in points... a lot. I see a smaller, tougher, army.

gorgon
08-08-2007, 17:53
Whatever happens I'd like to see new Pariah models.

I do know they're supposed to be soulless, but they're soulless-soulless in their current incarnation. About as scary as a foodmaster.

Hey, they're kewl! In a 1950s low-budget cardboard movie robot kind of way, that is...

They need to blow up the rules and the models and re-concept them. Who says they even have to be humanoid? The Pariahs aren't wearing armor, they're cyborgs.

stonehorse
08-08-2007, 17:54
GW are all for streamlining their games, so I can imagine the FNP rumour to be true. It's a shame as I've always enjoyed putting swarms of warriors on their sides only for them to get back up.

If the toughness of Immortals and Warriors is increased I'd also expect to see it increased on all units apart from Scarbs and C'tans. As they are all based off the same design, well apart from the Pariahs.

SAP again does suit the overall feel of the basic Necron Warrior, another interesting idea would be to give Flayed Ones fleet of foot (Watch I Robot to see just how fast robots should be)

The removal of phase out is good from a game point of view, but from a fluff point of view is horrid, does this mean that 'dead' Necrons no longer teleport back to their Tombworld/ship for repairs, but rather litter the battle field and can thus be salvaged by the enemy... I hope not. Part of the horror of the Necron threat is that if they are defeated there is no trace of them. It captures the hoplessness of fighting against them, as they can not be beaten, the best that can be accomplished is a small respite.

An extra HS choice, is something we just don't need, what we need is an extra Troops choice... may be move Flayed Ones to Troop? This one simple change would open up a whole new Necron army, no more typical 20 Necron Warriors who are going to sit in the terrain and shoot all game, but a fast combat orientated Necron Army to strike terror.

As for the Other 2 C'tan waking up, interesting, but I doubt the Void Dragon will show it's face, as this would then mean the time line is moved forward with monumental changes to the whole of 40K. Would be nice to see, but imagine how many SM fan boys would be up in arms at the idea?

The Outsider could come back, and that would be very interesting. As it is still not ready to trust the other C'tan (if memory serves me correctly) due to the trickery played upon it by the Deciever. If it does come back, it would open the concept of Necron civil wars... or maybe the Outsider has it's own type of Necron units to add to the slowly awakening army.

Can anyone else remember the rumours about their being a world wide campaign about the Outsider, that was rampant a few years back?

Either way it is a long while off so I suggest we enjoy what we have at the moment in time and await the future of our metal skinned friends.

Commissar Bob
08-08-2007, 17:54
Personally, I guess I can get behind SAP for the warriors and immortals, but I really hope that WBB abd phase out aren't really going to disapear, because they are such a core part of the character and uniqueness of the army.

But as far as I know the new necron codex is still well off in the future, so I would not be too concerned with these rumours yet.

Commissar Bob

unclejimbo827
08-08-2007, 17:56
* WBB replaced with FNP.
* Phase Out gone!

Ok... now just what the hell is GW thinking? These are about the whole point of Necrons. These crazy robots getting back up after getting shot in the face only to disappear mysteriously is what makes them different!

Ozendorph
08-08-2007, 17:57
Phase Out is characterful, but it's a pain in the ****. FNP + SAP and upgraded toughness has almost the same feel, but will be far easier than having to knock over my models and find space for their little tin corpses amidst a crowded melee.

As far as I'm concerned, the only model update needed is the Pariah. Man are those guys sad looking. The rest of the line looks great imo, though of course more plastic would be better (especially the Wraiths, as they are awfully fiddly and awkward in their metal incarnation).

I hope some of the units are brought up in value to be more competitive choices. I'm thinking specifically of Wraiths, Pariahs, and every HS choice that isn't a monolith. Also, Flayed Ones could really use some sort of help in close combat, whether it was rending, power weapons, increased strength, or what have you. Right now they are all bark and no bite.

Nabeshin1106
08-08-2007, 17:59
Wasn't there a thread in 40k General posted a while ago about someone who had overheard/seen some guys in a bar talking about sculpting stuff for GW?

I seem to remember the poster describing a model called The Outsider that was posed similar to the famous piece of art "The Thinker"

Anyone else remember this?

TheEndIsHere
08-08-2007, 17:59
We'll Be Back is lame and only a minority if people will miss it IMO.

The Key word is "IMO" wich makes your statement wrong, it<as like me saying everyone in Star wars hates Jedies! Yuor jsut talknig about something you have no clue about...

Also, the HS will most likely be a pylon...

D-End

Brimstone
08-08-2007, 18:03
Also, the HS will most likely be a pylon...

Don't bet on it. :angel:

As for the rumours before you go slagging off GW for ruining the Necrons these a RUMOURS and even if they are correct (which I doubt) will be an overall part of a codex revamp.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 18:16
Has anyone EVER seen a Necron player play a game of 40K without using Veil of Darkness and Resurrection Orb? I mean EVER even one time?! When certain tricks, spells or wargear are so powerful in an army that every single player who plays that army feels compelled to use exactly the same combinations every single time, then that army's Codex needs some changes. Talk about over-powered and boring combinations, the Necrons are seriously in need of a revision that will tempt Necron players to actually try out some of the other wargear, etc. available in their Codex.

I stopped using the resurrection orb when I realized BOLTERS were causing me more problems with WBB than S8+ weaponry. Especially when you are liberated from having to huddle around the lord. I do use a veil and a monolith. The mobility those to pieces lend is luxurious to say the least.

Most of the rest of the lord's wargear options (and indeed, many army list options) suck, nerfed with the move to 4th edition, or the effects are just plain not worth the points when you have phase out to worry about. For example: the Lightning field. Best used in a group of scarabs... where you can wound my T6 lord as if he's T3?! No thanks.

Common gripes:

Flayed Ones need help (t5 would help them immensely)
Wraiths need rending (it makes sense!)
Pariahs need... something!

chivalrous
08-08-2007, 18:16
What about Flayed Ones etc? Why would the warriors bodies suddenly become tougher than theirs when all that's different is claws instead of hands?

While the models don't show it, I've always thought that the frame of a Flayed One is thinner and lighter than an ordinary Warrior so it can fit into the skins of its victims. The disguise isn't much use if it's stretched beyond recognition.
A lower toughness in relation to Warriors may just represent the lighter body.

Geddonight
08-08-2007, 18:20
Hrm... FNP and WBB are pretty close to each other... the former wouldn't slow down games as much, and has greater applicability overall (you'll get to use it more often).

I worry though... seems like the only thing stopping 2-3 monoliths in 1500+ point games was the dreadfully low phase out rule... AV 14 living metal whipping or flux arcing weaponry could be pretty devastating.... especially with it becoming more difficult to take serious heavy weapons in armies. I could be wrong, though... maybe it's just a psych factor, or maybe they'll revise monoliths too.

senorcardgage
08-08-2007, 19:00
I worry though... seems like the only thing stopping 2-3 monoliths in 1500+ point games was the dreadfully low phase out rule... AV 14 living metal whipping or flux arcing weaponry could be pretty devastating.... especially with it becoming more difficult to take serious heavy weapons in armies. I could be wrong, though... maybe it's just a psych factor, or maybe they'll revise monoliths too.

I wouldn't be too worried. Even if these rumours are true, I highly doubt that they would be the only changes made!!

Joewrightgm
08-08-2007, 19:03
Slow and Purposful and Feel No Pain.

For
The
Win

Kelvan
08-08-2007, 19:16
There is similar topic on 40K Online, Shortfang posted that WBB will be changed on FNP and Phase out lowered to 10%...

For god sake, JJ should look at C'tan Support Group and find out how to redone this army without nerfing and overpowering...

Cheers.

Sephiroth
08-08-2007, 19:20
Don't bet on it. :angel:

What do you know?! :eek: Tell us! :chrome:

mistformsquirrel
08-08-2007, 19:26
The Necron army will have more tactical options though. They would no longer need to huddle around Lords with Orbs (you might save points from not having to buy an orb to offset the extra price of troopers), the Monolith will probably let you bring troops from reserves out of it's portal (does this combine with the veil?) and you have all your destroyers.

The Necron army would have plenty of options for deployment and movement. Without the need to base armies on avoiding phase-out you can take expensive units with less headaches and and your troops are insanely tough.

Also taking Pariahs might be worth it since there's no reason to care about them not having the "Necron" rule.

foehammer888
08-08-2007, 19:30
* WBB replaced with FNP. Basically same thing, but streamlined. Has advantages and disadvantages. Biggest 3 advantages are
1) streamlining gameplay
2) the fact that the unit still gets FNP even if the whole unit is whiped out
3) Warriors and Immortals will get it against almost all shooting weapons (as only S10 will double warriors toughness)


* Necron Warriors and Immortals get SAP, T increase by 1, and point increase. I like it. Makes them slow an unstoppable shooting units. Divides the army. Warriors and Immortals are slow, resilient shooting units. Detroyers and heavy destroyers are fast shooting units. Pariahs and flayed ones are slightly less resilient, but faster and harder-hitting assault units.


* Phase Out gone! Good. This will motivate people to use non "necron" units. Often pariahs and others were ignored because over warriors and immortals as they didn't contribute to the phase out number. Some of the best necron armies were just warriors and immortals and 2 res orb lords. Rather boring to look at and play against.

Foehammer

jfrazell
08-08-2007, 19:30
All this is based on a rumor with no support. Frankly I believe none of it. GW's not going to be talking about necrons when they have three to four codexes hanging in the breeze right now.

Venomizer
08-08-2007, 19:44
I think I'll be treating this with a strong case of cynicism, but let's have a look anyway


* WBB replaced with FNP.

a case of streamlining rules gone mad IMO, yes it'll speed up gameplay but you might as well rip the heart out of the Necron's character and play football with it

I'll not be overly happy if this is the case


* Necron Warriors and Immortals get SAP, T increase by 1, and point increase.

yay.............beef up the units that don't need it and further neglect Flayed Ones, Wraiths et al


* Phase Out gone!

see my thoughts on the first 'rumour'


* Three different options of Necron Lords.

the first thing I've read that doesn't like it was dreamt up after 3 bottles of ouzo and a week old pizza.................Wraith & Tomb spyder bodies could be interesting


* Veil is nerfed (sends unit to reserve, but can deep-strike next turn).

hmmmmm, doesn't bother me too much


* One new HS unit choice.

sounds interesting

Lord Balian
08-08-2007, 19:59
What are you all complaining about loosing WBB? Do you not understand the potential of T5 AND FNP? I would soooo rather have those together instead. And frankly, FNP is essentially the same roll, just done right off the bat at time of wound. If you noticed, GW is getting rid of armies specific little special rules, and replacing them with USR. And I think FNP is totally fitting.

Look at it like this. The basic fire arm is S4, going against T5 means 5+ is needed to wound. And then you get your, assuming still, 3+ save. And should you happen to still take a wound, you get to roll FNP on a 4+. So you get two saves!!

Slow and purposeful just makes sence for an army of robots.

I guess I don't see the big deal either way about loosing phase out. Someone said that will just allow people to take 3 'liths, C'tan and 2 warrior units. OK fine by me. I'll just sit my army back out of the way and away from the warriors, and focus every single heavy weapon on the monoliths. They haven't got much else to shoot at, right? So they are gone in 2 turns, then the rest of my army advances on the two loley warrior units. Be my guest.

Deathraven
08-08-2007, 20:03
I wouldn't worry about flayed ones and wraith's. They'll just do what they've been doing since fourth ed began, if it doesn't work give it rending!

Dribble Joy
08-08-2007, 20:17
Just because something's a unique rule, doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of problems with it. Be they to do with interpretation, over-poweredness, or flow of the game.
Loosing a unique rule doesn't mean you loose character either. Some Ork players are moaning over the possible loss of the Power of the Waaagh rule for Furious Charge. Frankly they are as fluffy as each other, while the latter everyone knows what it does, it's in everyone's BGB, it doesn't cause confusion and there's less chance of a player lying about how the rule works to someone who doesn't have the codex.

GreenDracoBob
08-08-2007, 20:18
To all of you complaining about FNP replacing WBB: GW's new regime has a habit of giving units rules and then naming them something different in the codex. The Eldar Exarch powers are the perfect example. I give the unit Stalker, Withdraw or Acrobatic according to the codex, but the USRs they gain are Move Through Cover, Hit and Run and Counter-Attack. So GW may say that Necrons have the We'll Be Back special rule which states that they have the Feel No Pain USR.

And in regards to Phase Out: I'm sure they'll still talk about it in the codex, even if it doesn't cut it as a rule. I wouldn't worry, but I do know there are those that need every piece of fluff to be shown on the tabletop. Unfortunately, my limited experience with Necron players gives me no idea how this will affect the style of the army.

Merreck
08-08-2007, 20:19
Shouldn't they be though?

They're giant hulking self-repairing robots running on subspace zeropoint superstring subatomic technorape energy. Somehow I reckon that would make you a little harder than a marine with crabs.:p

And sigged!




How does this grab you? When summoning a unit of necrons through a monolith portal, roll a FNP save for every casualty the unit has sustained. Any successful saves are put back in the unit. That would be how I'd do it if I wanted to keep that feature.

Hellebore

Interesting. Might get a little confusing who knows. I'm thinking the Ress Orb Will make their FnP a 3+ or prerhaps the Tomb Spider will do that, or both! 2+ FnP! :evilgrin: Nah thats way too damn broken heheheh.

I'm pleased with the rumors, I just wanna see what they'll do with Flayed Ones, wraiths, and Pariahs my three fave units. Who wants to bet wraiths will get rending?

I think the Obelisk is likely the new HS and will be fieldable in Squadrons, now what will they do to allow the Tomb Spider and Heavy Destroyer (who is ridiculously overcosted) to compete with the Lith and Obelisk. Let's also hope and pray for a new Tomb Spider model. I hate the roach.

EDIT: Also Why the hell are people actually complaining that the loss of WBB and Phase Out will destroy the necron character? Both rules were confusing and a pain in the ass, and phase forced you into using certain models. one rules has been repalced by something far better and the other is just gone thank god. Character my ass, I love "characterful" rules that force me to play a certain way and can end my night early because too many warriors died.

PS: How the hell do I sigg that quote properly instead of just copy/pasting it?

jfrazell
08-08-2007, 20:32
top left-click USer CP
click EDIT SIGNATURE
put in your your siggie.

TaintedSpam
08-08-2007, 20:35
Interesting. Might get a little confusing who knows. I'm thinking the Ress Orb Will make their FnP a 3+ or prerhaps the Tomb Spider will do that, or both! 2+ FnP! :evilgrin: Nah thats way too damn broken heheheh.

Necrons would still be vulnerable to power weapons and rending in close combat, so there is still a use for the res-orb as is.

Hellfury
08-08-2007, 20:40
Has anyone goto GamesDay and hear additional rumors besides those below for the upcoming Necron release in 2008?

I am utterly amazed at how people here view these as new rumours.

You people from warseer should already remember the bullet points of Mezmaron's "rumours" from a couple months ago.

Mezmaron is phishing. Again, mezmaron is phishing.

He is basically going to News and Rumours asking a question (which would get a thread closed here on warseer quicker than anything) and everyone here has fallen for it.

There is nothing new here folks, move along.

Of course, since this thread has reached a certain page level, no one is going to read this, but I am going on record as saying it.

bigred
08-08-2007, 20:43
I'm liking what I'm seeing here.

The replacement of WBB with FNP is a good one, and has been rumbling around the rumor mill for a few months now. It cleans things up considerably as WBB is unweildly and leads to all manner of odd situations once you add Res Orbs/Tomb Spiders/Monoliths into the picture. FNP is simple for even newbs to understand.

Buffing Warriors and Immortals toughness while slowing them down and extending their effective weappns range is pretty fluffy, and makes the army more of a slow, lumbering, shooting force.

The loss of Phaseout is a godsend as it has doomed the army on the tournament circuit and in competition play. An army that completely losses all victory points is just too risky to bring to an event as the first phaseout pretty much guarantees you will not finish anywhere near the top of the pack. The designers need to rebalance the army's strengths to not require Phaseout as a counterbalance.

A side note on the Immortals: I like them being T:6 as it makes them a nice "ancient enemy" counterpart to the Eldar Wraithguard, and each is an effective counter to the other.

3 Levels of Lords is good and supposedly will tie into some more info on these levels (Silver, Gold, Platinum Lords) that is coming out with Apocalypse. It is a hope of mine that they will just work the ResOrb into the high level Lords as a standard piece of kit. I mean, when was the last time you ever saw a Necron army without one.

Nerfing Veil is good, as now the Necron army is actually pretty fast, not the shambling horde the fluff describes.

Finally, new Heavy Support choice...Yay! Hopefully its the Obelisk from epic.

Sarevok
08-08-2007, 20:59
I'm not fond of laying models on their side, especially fiddly ones like destroyers.
So WBB->FNP is good.

Keichi246
08-08-2007, 20:59
Hmm,

I have a Necron army myself. While losing WBB and Phase out may seem to be "ripping the soul out of the army", I can definitely see why they would want to do that.

If WBB was straight up replaced by FNP, I wouldn't like it. The rumored +1 toughness and FNP defintely makes it a viable possibility though. The math works and uses the existing USRs.

Phase out is more annoying than anything else. It was put in as an attempt to balance some of the "uberness" of the other rules. Losing it doesn't bother me at all.

Without Phase out and WBB, the Ressurection Orb can probably just go away - along with the Monolith's healing ability during teleport. This would would mesh with the "Jervis Doctrine" of reducing optional wargear. The Monolith probably should go up a touch in points, but since it is losing an ability, it shouldn't be *too* much.

Without phase out, those other "borderline" units become slightly more viable as well - even without rules changes. I like Pariahs - their main problem is that they AREN'T necrons for the Phase out number.

I dunno - this is sounding remarkably internally consistent. I guess that means that it can't POSSIBLY be a true rumor... :D

manickze
08-08-2007, 21:12
If ever there was an army that needed to be eaten by tyranids, it's Necrons. Anybody involved in updating the codex/models needs to be taken care of inquisition style.

MvS
08-08-2007, 21:12
Of course, since this thread has reached a certain page level, no one is going to read this, but I am going on record as saying it.

*looks up at previous few posts*

Quad erat demonstrandum.

Grimtuff
08-08-2007, 21:24
If ever there was an army that needed to be eaten by tyranids, it's Necrons. Anybody involved in updating the codex/models needs to be taken care of inquisition style.

Hurrah for non-constructive criticism! :rolleyes:

I think you should be dealt with "inquisition style". Why? Because I said so. This is exactly what you just did. If you're going to post a comment like that then you may want to tell us WHY you dislike Necrons.

Also, I don't believe these for one minute. Simply because of Apocalypse, it appears a lot of the current Necron teminology (WBB et al.) will be in this book, esp. for stuff like the Monolith Phalanx. Unless as already stated WBB=FNP in terms of renaming stadardised rules a'la Eldar, GW will have worked themselves into a corner.

EDIT: Here's the original IDENTICAL thread.... (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75046&highlight=necron)

DesertDirge
08-08-2007, 21:50
If there is to be no WBB roll then they definetly get rid of phase out... but like said before.. Thats what makes necrons , Necrons!! What's next get rid of Gauss?

Chris_Tzeentch
08-08-2007, 22:01
Yet more dumbing down of the 40k rule system. Epic 40k failed because Jervis Johnson removed the character from the units, and made them dull, generic and "streamlined". Now Jervis is involved in 40k, EXACTLY the same thing is happening again. Gamers like character and detail.

This is such a step backwards, if its true of course!

Equinox
08-08-2007, 22:10
My thoughts on the topic.

Considering the current trend, I wouldn't be shocked if WBB is replaced with FNP. I personally don't like it and have never found WBB to be confusing or time consuming, but that is only my view.

I am surprised no one has mentioned (or I missed it, which is likely) that flayed ones just need the ability to assault on the turn they arrive. Give them that ability and they become very effective. I wouldn't give them rending or such, just assault when they arrive, like Lictors or Daemons.

Until there is something more concrete, I wouldn't get to worked up about these rumors.

Bob5000
08-08-2007, 22:20
WBB is not the only 'character' of the Necrons .
I associate WBB 'character' as one of causing too much confusion and anomalies with the standard rules-set . I for one would be delighted if this rumour was to be true , along with other simplifications and streamlining .

Over complex rules detract from the game , not enhance it IMO . A measure of a game is not proportional to its complexity , more its playability

thewizard99
08-08-2007, 22:33
T5, Slow and Purposful Warriors with FNP...I guess they want themt o be harder to kill than Plague Marines...you won't be able to hose them down with Rending, Plasma, etc with the same effect.

*shrugs* I've always enjoyed the WBB stuff. It isn't like the Necron are slowing the game down by looking up all sorts of different stats and ranges for them.

mmm that makes them sound like thousand sons way back when, they couldnt be hurt by anything less than streght 5, could shoot full 24 or 12 after moving, as well as feel no pain i think.......hell, necrons are getting cheeser, but would be a good thing to see these incorporated with WBB and Phase out.

Dr.Clock
08-08-2007, 23:34
These changes would make me actually like necrons...

Instead of 'faceless Space Marines who stand back up' they would actually be fundamentally different in terms of stats (weapons, special rules and statline).

These changes will make them the toughest army in the game. Not toughest to beat, just toughest basic troops. This, IMHO is how it should be:

Space marines are the base all-rounders (no special movement, T4)
Eldar are fast but weak (fleet, T3)
Necrons will be slow and incredibly tough (SAP, T5, FNP)

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

fleshcross
08-08-2007, 23:37
Personally, besides the fact that these are all wildly unfounded rumors at best, I look forward to the loss of Phase Out and WBB. I've played Necrons since the codex release, and I think FNP would better suit them. Yes, they're self-repairing, but honestly WBB is a lot more confusing than FNP is (6" of a live Necron, 12" if a Tomb Spider is present, Res Orb, blah blah blah). As far as the "loss of character" from losing Phase Out, what? Dead Necrons can still Phase, it just wouldn't be a rule that effects gameplay anymore. It would allow for more diverse armies. And hell, I wouldn't mind a drop to a 4+ save as long as it was paired with the +1T and FNP. But there are a few things the list would need, like another troop option, SERIOUSLY.

sanctusmortis
08-08-2007, 23:56
What's the point in making a Res Orb model if they're losing WBB, though? It wouldn't work unless they changed it to "all models within 12" automatically pass their FNP test", which is just, well, beardy.

Could the HS be the odd floating temple (the one that DOESN'T look like a pyramid) they had sketches of? Or the Pylon?

Bestial Fury
09-08-2007, 00:01
Maybe Res Orb will do something different with any new rules.

Amornar
09-08-2007, 00:04
These rumors and the way they are being received reminds me of when rumors of the new chaos dex came out.

marv335
09-08-2007, 00:05
the res orb could still keep the same mechanic with FnP as it does with WBB.
that is, allow it to be taken when the weapon strength/ability denies FnP/WBB
I like the sound of these changes.
I'd get my army out of storage if it proves to be true.
I may playtest with these changes and see how it goes...

loveless
09-08-2007, 00:15
the more I think about those changes...the more I want them to be true

Toughness 5 Slow & Purposeful troops with Feel No Pain - I'd expect a price increase, but this would make Necrons a bit more interesting to play, in my opinion.

I wonder what else they would change...hmm...although are we expecting 2009 now that the Daemon Codex is slated for 2008?

So 2008 presents us with Orks and Daemons, and then Necrons? I thought they were relatively close on the list of "GW things to do"

Sithlord
09-08-2007, 00:24
so immortals gets toughness of 6? They are getting harder to be destroyed with 2 saves, 1 from armor saves and the other from FnP.
What about Pariah? Can they get little better? Either getting inv. saves or FnP?

Glabro
09-08-2007, 00:45
Thereīs a distinct difference between WBB and FNP.
With WBB, you canīt guarantee that the target you want dead stays dead, and you might end up with wasted/less effective shooting (longer range etc) because the target went "out for the count". With FNP, given enough firepower, you can guarantee destruction and there will be no "wastage" of fire because of it.

Chaplain Ark
09-08-2007, 00:45
If these rumors are true, they basically screwed every single necron player, and anyone who was interested in necrons.


Toughness 5 Slow & Purposeful troops with Feel No Pain

Is GW trying to make a stat clone of a plague marine?

Kirasu
09-08-2007, 01:03
The sky is falling indeed.. We should make a post for every new codex that is just "OMG ITS GOING TO SUCK".. And post it 500 times as per the chaos thread

New codex looks pretty good and still has plenty of abusive rules to satisfy the ex-siren princers (Prince + verb?)

Id love necrons to not be a mockery of The Terminator and to actually have real flavor.. I cant understand how anyone could enjoy having an entire army of guys armed with bolters

Joewrightgm
09-08-2007, 01:03
Just taking the rumors at face value;

I hate the way We'll Be Back! the way it works currently; book keeping is confusing and figuring out what model gets a We'll Be Back! and which one doesn't, if they're in range of another unit.

Slow and Purposeful I'll take all day everyday. I'll be pumping out shots consistently as I close to rapid fire (where in my opinion, Necrons work best).

Feel No Pain is almost word-for-word We'll Be Back, only done on the same turn as it happened. Same exceptions and all.

Most of the wargear/tomb spyders would become very much more useful than they are currently or would port well from the 3rd ed codex.

For me, none of the character would be lost if these changes were made. Playing Necrons was and always should be about fielding the hardest to kill force in the game. Doing these to Necrons I would love to see the changes.

My 2 bits, take it for what its worth.

EDIT: Necrons better get more plastics *cough*Immortals/Flayed Ones*cough* Because we could use a little love in that department. I see my Immortals on the table and the models seem to say "significant monetary investment" when I look at them.

Mmm . . . Plastic . . .

thedodgeypanda
09-08-2007, 01:04
Ok i herd these rumors
the 3HQ choices will be, Lord with staff of light, Lord with warsyth, destroyer lord. No new c'tans however the the current ones will get better saves (thank god, they die to easily to snipers). Warriors new stat line is, WS3 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I1 A1 Ld10 SV 3+/4+FNP
Parhias apparently get feel no pain also as well as 2A base.
Wraiths attacks don't allow armoursaves.
Flayed ones get +1I and fleet of foot, and rending.

Ok the rezorb my be horrible, it apparently resurrects all NECRONS THAT DIED THAT TURN! However its 1 use only and a 0-1

All this is just rumors iv her floating around my local GW

Faze out is still going to be their, but when 75% of the army is lost each unit takes a ld test and if it failes they faze out. (i think this will includ out nomberd modifires)

MoonlightSonata
09-08-2007, 01:26
Ok i herd these rumors
the 3HQ choices will be, Lord with staff of light, Lord with warsyth, destroyer lord. No new c'tans however the the current ones will get better saves (thank god, they die to easily to snipers). Warriors new stat line is, WS3 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I1 A1 Ld10 SV 3+/4+FNP
Parhias apparently get feel no pain also as well as 2A base.
Wraiths attacks don't allow armoursaves.
Flayed ones get +1I and fleet of foot, and rending.

Ok the rezorb my be horrible, it apparently resurrects all NECRONS THAT DIED THAT TURN! However its 1 use only and a 0-1

All this is just rumors iv her floating around my local GW

Faze out is still going to be their, but when 75% of the army is lost each unit takes a ld test and if it failes they faze out. (i think this will includ out nomberd modifires)

All things considered I don't believe any of this. Especially as it was mentioned at a GD way back when that The Outsider would be included in the next codex. Your bizarre method of spelling doesn't exactly help your credability either.

Chaplain Ark
09-08-2007, 01:30
Just taking the rumors at face value;

I hate the way We'll Be Back! the way it works currently; book keeping is confusing and figuring out what model gets a We'll Be Back! and which one doesn't, if they're in range of another unit.

Slow and Purposeful I'll take all day everyday. I'll be pumping out shots consistently as I close to rapid fire (where in my opinion, Necrons work best).

Feel No Pain is almost word-for-word We'll Be Back, only done on the same turn as it happened. Same exceptions and all.

Most of the wargear/tomb spyders would become very much more useful than they are currently or would port well from the 3rd ed codex.

For me, none of the character would be lost if these changes were made. Playing Necrons was and always should be about fielding the hardest to kill force in the game. Doing these to Necrons I would love to see the changes.

My 2 bits, take it for what its worth.

EDIT: Necrons better get more plastics *cough*Immortals/Flayed Ones*cough* Because we could use a little love in that department. I see my Immortals on the table and the models seem to say "significant monetary investment" when I look at them.

Mmm . . . Plastic . . .

I have nothing against the new codex, as i don't play necron, but it does seem to be that they are taking the good stuff away from the necron players. The no WBB makes it harder for the necron strategies. plus feel no pain doesn't get the extra chance like WBB does with the Res orb.

Now seeing as how the rules for Chaos have evened out and made the Chaos not so cheesy, the same could be said for the Necrons. we just have to give it time for the rumors to be either confirmed or dispersed.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-08-2007, 01:39
The Res orb would be a lot cooler if, say once a game, it allowed all units within six inches of the Lord holding it to instantly pass all their FNP rolls.

I consider the lord a joke. He's practically on my team. He teleports nice expensive targets like immortals into heavy bolter/single-shot plasma/vindicator range for me and gets owned. Also he is completely weak compared to other ICs in scarier ranges like Chaos. He should be an expensive beast with awesome powers that terrify opponents.

I feel that these changes are all a great start to altering the feel of the Necrons to something more sensible. To the WBB fans I say, if you think the entire identity of your army is that it spends most of it's time lying in the dirt, then I think you guys need the changes a lot more than you think.

The other things that need to happen to really give the list some flavor:
--Tomb Spyders need the Carnifex treatment wicked bad...MC with cool upgrades to give the army some flexibility.
--Monolith needs to have a more interesting effect on the army, something like making the FNP roll easier within a short range of it, maybe?
--Heavy destroyers need reworking, maybe 2 wounds or a 2+ save or 2 shots, I dunno...something to make them not suck
--The omnipresent Pariah issues.

The way I see it, aside from elements of chaos, the necrons should be one of the hardest things to kill in the game. Making their basic troops that strong is a great way to make them the tough, terrifying stalking force they are supposed to be.

thedodgeypanda
09-08-2007, 01:42
All things considered I don't believe any of this. Especially as it was mentioned at a GD way back when that The Outsider would be included in the next codex. Your bizarre method of spelling doesn't exactly help your credability either.


My method isnt bizarre i cant spell i have to use word to spell check. And at the games day's i have been to i havnt herd anything about the outsider and GW HQ nottingham havent said anything about an outsider. On record anyway according to my local store manager.

Chaplain Ark
09-08-2007, 02:00
the only problem i have with necrons in general is that they are already incredibly hard to kill-and giving them feel no pain and a 5 toughness only makes them harder to kill. my friend who plays necrons for some strange reason does not know of the ability to roll less then a 4 on the WBB roll. so the only way i can win is take lots of Las cannons and Meltaguns to instant kill them. now with a 5 thoughness, i can't instant kill with my SM army without a vindicator, and don't even bring up how my friends necrons do against my vehicles. at least increase thier points so the hardest army to kill doesn't have more models then my army does.

EmperorEternalXIX
09-08-2007, 02:04
If you read the thread, it says they're getting a point increase.

Chaplain Ark
09-08-2007, 02:07
If you read the thread, it says they're getting a point increase.

sorry, i usually just browse so i tend to miss things. forgive my discrepancy.

njfed
09-08-2007, 02:26
I have been playing Necrons for some time. These changes don't bother me at all. Just a new challenge.

My son sent me an email with an idea for a new troop. While there are some issues with the idea, I thought I would share it since I like the idea.

Name: Changelings
Section : troops
Base size: small

Normal form:

WS:4
S:4
T:4
BS:4
W:1
A:0*
SV: 4+
LD: 5/10*

Special Rules:

Feel No Pain

Liquid Metal: Changelings are highly adaptable and thus change to their
surroundings or take the shape of others. When a changelings comes withing 6" inches of a squad of Warriors or Flayed Ones the squad quickly changes to take the shape and abilities of the warriors or flayed ones. When in warrior form, they gain a gauss rifle. When in flayed one form, they gain an extra attack.

Blends to its surroundings: Changelings get a extra +1 to there cover save when in cover and in their normal form.

Nothing to change into: Changlings become weak and demoralized when not within 6" of a warrior squad or flayed one squad. Thus, in the attack phase the squad flees 1D6 toward the nearest cover where they can blend in or toward the nearest warrior squad or Flayed One squad. The squad counts as fleeing, and automatically rallies when entering terrain or coming within 6" of a squad.

Expert Changeling: for +X points the expert changelings can become Immortals too.

Note: Changelings always have a 4+ save.

thedodgeypanda
09-08-2007, 02:38
I like them rules njfed and i think they should be 12points each.
But i came up with a good one.

Necron Dephilaer W3 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 SV 4+
Squad size, 4-8
Gauss Burster: Assolt 1D6 S1 AP1 18"
Special rules: Deep stirke, Infiltrate, WBB

Tulun
09-08-2007, 02:40
To be honest, necrons losing WBB would be better... I like models staying dead after I kill the damn MEQ. WBB is a poorly worded rule, anyway: How does a Necron 'get back up' after being thrown into the warp? (Warp Cannon, the Marine psychic power, etc)...

It's a poorly built army, and tbh, I never enjoy the game. It's never even remotely close, based on the army I'm using. Either I totally crush the Necron (e.g: My TMC tyranid type team, which necrons are generally weak against), or I have horrid luck and those Monoliths stay alive, and keep the 75% reraise rate up...

It's a unique rule, but it was poorly thought out, priced, and executed, because of certain wargear. The Orb basically counters all the negatives of WBB, and it's stupidly easy to keep 1 model in range of the orb holder...

Of course, I'll believe it's gone when I see it :)

Thankfully, Necrons are very rare where I play, so I never see them really anymore.

Anyone ever play twin towers in 1000 points? (2 monoliths). 3rd edition, I saw this win a lot :(

Hokiecow
09-08-2007, 02:50
GD! If the Dark Eldar don't get some love soon I am going to scream till my head explodes! ....AAARGH! <POP!>

Kirasu
09-08-2007, 03:10
Feel no pain is better than WBB.. I've beaten so many necron players because I killed the entire squad with no other necrons in range, so all 10 are dead.. With feel no pain you'd have to kill so many more.. Right now either a necron player bunchs up and ignores 40% of the board or they spread out and you can destroy entire squads while ignoring WBB

Necrons just need some actual tactical flexibility.. Alas, that's the problem with most of the "expansion" teams that were invented at the end of 2nd edition or 3rd edition (DE, Necron, Tau and WH/DH).. Very few tactical options, or choices that are so much better than the rest

foehammer888
09-08-2007, 03:27
This type of release might actually also meet the current 40k release schedule.

- August-Sept is Chaos Marines
- Oct-Dec is appocolypse (major undertaking)
- Orks slatted for christmas-feb (major revamp due to the age of the codex)
- White dwarf articles have hinted at the daemon codex next year (completely new army, big undertaking).
- It might fit that later spring/summer or christmas 2008 (depending on when the daemon codex arrives) that they might do necrons, which would be a minor release similar to the revised tau. A few miniatures, but mostly rules revamp.

Almost makes sense. Don't know if that makes it believable or unbelievable.

Foehammer

Hellfury
09-08-2007, 03:59
Usually the prechrsitmas release is a larger one with oodles of new stuff to buy. I cant see them placing necrons in that area if they dont get the full treatment of new doodads. Perhaps closer to the late winter early spring of 2009.

Now for the christmas 2008 season, I can easily see dark eldar being the big release. Nearly the whole model range needs to be redone. As well as a new codex with more than a couple minor tweaks (ala tau).

I just simply dont think that necrons are as close as is rumoured.

I know people complain alot about orks, and rightfully so, but when you look at the dark eldar, thats the one army that has been the most neglected army list out there (debatable if you love the crappy version 2 of the dex).

Kirasu
09-08-2007, 04:15
Dark eldar are just in a difficult place.. They dont sell enough models to really justify the army, and yet GW has pledged to support them.. De is the only army that needs an ENTIRE range of minis redone which is the only way people might actually buy them

It's a big gamble for GW Im sure.. Would be much simpler to bury their failed ideas like another race in 40k history whos name cannot be spoken

JackBurton01
09-08-2007, 04:56
If they give necrons FNP and get rid of phase out they will be pretty much unbeatable lol. There is no way these rumors are accurate unless the basic warrior is moving to 22 points. What is even the point of slow and puposeful? I mostly moved mine with the monolith.

Sithlord
09-08-2007, 10:29
why even people bother with dark eldar? Are you dissatisfied with models or rules? My opinion are differ.... I still keep winning with my dark eldar (only 4 lost of all major battles that I had played) and models are still good to look at as they are twisted (and believe me that dark eldar ARE twisted). However what dark eldar needs are rules 'clarification' and get rid of those useless arcane wargear.
For necrons, I would expect them to be harder to be killed because it's... NECROns (undead). Slow and purposeful and T5 and FnP and pts increase (around 22-24pts) are no problem with me. Let's hope the new unit to be appear are the tomb giant monstrous creature.

ferrus
09-08-2007, 12:40
I'm hoping they have a new C'tan, and a new troop choice.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
09-08-2007, 13:10
I'm hoping they have a new C'tan, and a new troop choice.

agreed thats what I want too :) and an Obelisk would be good too. on the model-update side : plastics immortals, plastic flayed ones and plastic pariahs (with better rules) and more metal tomb spyders and ill be a happy stargod!

gorgon
09-08-2007, 15:28
I think the original poster was fishing. Besides, haven't heard rumors from trusted sources about new Dark Eldar miniatures and designs? Brim's also said Necrons are on the docket, but it just seems like there's more smoke around DE than Necrons for 2008.

@Sithlord -- Necrons and DE are almost in the same boat, except DE have uglier miniatures overall. What works in each army list works very well. The trouble is that there are too many units and options that don't work well, and those need a buff.

Kelvan
09-08-2007, 15:57
For necrons, I would expect them to be harder to be killed because it's... NECROns (undead). Slow and purposeful and T5 and FnP and pts increase (around 22-24pts) are no problem with me.

Shitlord, in my oppinion Necrons should cost 15 pts have SaP and FNP with T4, Necron army shouldn't be based on few hard to kill warriors but on countless models average to kill... Look at the codex pictures...

Cheers.

Sureshot05
09-08-2007, 15:57
Shouldn't they be though?
How does this grab you? When summoning a unit of necrons through a monolith portal, roll a FNP save for every casualty the unit has sustained. Any successful saves are put back in the unit. That would be how I'd do it if I wanted to keep that feature.

Hellebore

That sounds so insanely sensible that it might just work. Possibly... ;)

The Res orb working once a game and restoring those that died in the last turn would be a great fun item, but would it lead to the Necron lord hiding at the back until he had delivered his payload? I know that I would hurl everything I had at a Necron Lord who had a res-orb and threatened to undo a good turn's shooting with a pretty bauble.

Still, a redo for the Necrons introducing just a couple new units would be good for Necron players in general, and I doubt that GW will drop the ball on this one as very little needs tweaking.

Hellebore
10-08-2007, 03:52
Sithlord, in my oppinion Necrons should cost 15 pts have SaP and FNP with T4, Necron army shouldn't be based on few hard to kill warriors but on countless models average to kill... Look at the codex pictures...

Cheers.

Lol.

Unfortunately for the Necrons, they should both be impossible to kill AND without number. Unfortunately that's not how you balance a wargame....

Hellebore

Maximus_Prime
10-08-2007, 04:53
ROFL kelvan I think you spelled Sithlord's name wrong there xD

anyways, iunno, FNP for 'crons seems kind of...uhh...Un-necron-y. Maybe give them 2 wounds instead?

Chaplain Ark
10-08-2007, 05:04
Dark eldar are just in a difficult place.. They dont sell enough models to really justify the army, and yet GW has pledged to support them.. De is the only army that needs an ENTIRE range of minis redone which is the only way people might actually buy them

It's a big gamble for GW Im sure.. Would be much simpler to bury their failed ideas like another race in 40k history whos name cannot be spoken

the only reason DE don't sell as much models is because GW WAS STUPID AND STOPPED UPDATING, SELLING, AND MODELING THE DE.

When i started 40k, some of the first models i saw were a friends DE warriors he won in a contest. albiet, he only had 3, BUT, they were cool and they helped make me start 40k. GW should have kept selling them.

GreenDracoBob
10-08-2007, 06:18
I actually like the idea of beefing up the Necrons' survivability. In the end, it gives them something to separate them from the other current MEQs. Something needs to be tougher to kill then the Emperor's Finest.

But the idea of a horde Necron force also works. But the C'Tan don't have to worry about point costs, do they? They can field however many Necrons they want, regardless of the size of the other army.

WorLord
10-08-2007, 06:29
I don't like the idea of losing WBB in favor of FNP, but I can cope - especially if they get T5 & lose phase out...

Losing phase out would be nice so I could experiment w/ more specialized units instead of maxing out my warrior & immortal units to keep my phase out # high...

A new C'tan might be good, but what I really want is a dedicated HtH unit that is worth taking. Pariahs are too expensive for what they do and flayed ones are best used to infiltrate in & grab objectives. I want something with I 3 or 4, 2+ attacks, and rending/power/c'tan phase weapon effects - even if the point costs are high...

fleshcross
10-08-2007, 07:28
Hell, I never took Pariahs for their combat prowess anyways. I also preferred them as a tool to make the Nightmare Shroud more effective (especially in 3rd edition when you could fly units of Scarabs behind units, make them flee, and the Scarabs would Crossfire them into oblivion). But yea, Pariahs were never really worth their points cost.

shabbadoo
10-08-2007, 07:42
There is no problem with exchanging WBB with FNP with regard to terminology and WBB showing up in Apocalyspe. It is easy enough to get around the use of the term "We'll Be Back!" in whatever source by simply redefining it with a standard rule effect, which will not outdate Apocalypse or anything else.

"We'll Be Back!" Being living metal, Necrons can repair themselves almost as quickly as they sustain damage. All models in the Necron army, other than the Monolith have the "Feel No Pain" special rule.

Simple enough.
If Phase Out were to be replaced by simply making most Necron units tougher and cost more points I'd be OK with that. Highr point NEcrons will just make them more fearsome, as they should be. Necrons are supposed to be one of the great threats of the galaxy. Perhaps they should be just a bit more dangerous than the average space marine. Also, SAP will make Necrons better at assaulting. Fire twice and then charge(albeit without the bonus die for charging due to SAP), instead of no firing and then assult for 2 attacks as it is now. Those shooting attacks also hit on 3+ and have an actual AP value too, which is much better than two close combat attacks most likely hitting on 4+ more often than 3+, and having no AP value. So, better at assaulting.

Speculation is fun, even if it is based on a phishing thread. :D

Shebnar
10-08-2007, 07:46
FNP and SAP: good, they really fit the Necrons' fluff.

T increase: should an Immortal be able to get a 4+ save against a railgun shot? NO.

Geep
10-08-2007, 08:43
It would be a bit odd if they did a Toughness increase on Immortals- I remember a previous WD article saying that they wanted T6 reserved for things like monstrous creatures. I guess this has already been broken by Nurgle Bikers and wraithguard though... and I'll be happy with T6 immortals...

I hope these rumours have some basis.

Acolyte of Bli'l'ab
10-08-2007, 09:48
wouldnt mind any of this as long as "death" of models counted-as "phased out back to tomb".

Souleater
10-08-2007, 10:18
Shouldn't they be though?

They're giant hulking self-repairing robots running on subspace zeropoint superstring subatomic technorape energy. Somehow I reckon that would make you a little harder than a marine with crabs.:p
Hellebore

Oh, I wasn't complaining, on the contary I think it appropriate that the necron are roughly equal to Plague Marines.

I'm still not sure about T6 Immortals. Partly that's the Nid player part of me thinking 'Hey, is everybody else getting T6? How come I'm stuck at 6/7?'

But I realise I'm over-reacting a little considering the number of T6 units there are...although T8 Wraithlords still annoys me.

But...if they have groovy, slightly larger plastics...I can go with that.

I like the way WBB works, it has a definate cinematic quality to it. I confess I'm surprised by the number of people in this thread saying it is confusing/time wasting.

My Nids are worse - Move the gaunts in Movement. Fleet the Gaunts in Shooting. Assault with the Gaunts in Assault. Takes up far more time than my 'Crons WBB rolls.

Lastly, I'd much rather see the Dark Eldar get their overhaul but I think by the time they get around to them my DE models will have worn down to smooth stubs...in my nightmares I'm forced to use Evil Craftworld Eldar :eek:

gorgon
10-08-2007, 14:34
I like the way WBB works, it has a definate cinematic quality to it. I confess I'm surprised by the number of people in this thread saying it is confusing/time wasting.

It's not that much of a time waster, but it does get a little strange in some situations. FNP would immediately solve all those little oddities.

If WBB is the only "character" the Necron army has, that just underlines all the issues and missed opportunities in the codex. I'm all for the FNP swap as long as other things in the list get overhauled.

Sithlord
10-08-2007, 14:52
FnP or WBB, at least we got what rumors we are looking at. I still yet to see the new possible C'tan (I presume the outsider, not void dragon. If it was void dragon then you'll be sure mars are thrown to chaos)

Smokedog
10-08-2007, 20:31
1 post of rumours, 8 pages of replies. Although I like the rumours, and this thread hasnīt got closed, you donīt need to read past the first post...

Negrodamus
11-08-2007, 01:57
If they do add SAP then I thing the Gaus weapons should go from rapid fire to assault

gLOBS
11-08-2007, 02:59
Why SAP is a bonus for rapid fire weapons.

Sithlord
11-08-2007, 03:14
because if ye move (SAP), you can always fire at full range

chaos0xomega
11-08-2007, 03:46
the more I think about those changes...the more I want them to be true

Toughness 5 Slow & Purposeful troops with Feel No Pain - I'd expect a price increase, but this would make Necrons a bit more interesting to play, in my opinion.


As if they weren't expensive enough already? Unless of course Phase out is eliminated, this won't happen.


With WBB, you canīt guarantee that the target you want dead stays dead, and you might end up with wasted/less effective shooting (longer range etc) because the target went "out for the count". With FNP, given enough firepower, you can guarantee destruction and there will be no "wastage" of fire because of it.

Err... you can guarantee that it stays dead, just remove the rest of the squad and any other within 6" of it.


WS3 BS4 S4 T5 W1 I1 A1 Ld10 Sv 3+/4+FNP

Their worse at cc than the Tau? BLASPHEMY!


Wraiths attacks don't allow armoursaves.
Flayed ones get +1I and fleet of foot, and rending.

About 'effin time.


Ok the rezorb my be horrible, it apparently resurrects all NECRONS THAT DIED THAT TURN! However its 1 use only and a 0-1

Sounds like a warmachine feat to me... :rolleyes:

Couldn't they have just made it a FNP reroll for units within 12"?


Faze out is still going to be their, but when 75% of the army is lost each unit takes a Ld test and if it failes they faze out. (i think this will includ out nomberd modifires)

That seems logical to me, I actually kinda like it.

Keep in mind I'm taking everything you just said with a big grain of salt.


The Res orb would be a lot cooler if, say once a game, it allowed all units within six inches of the Lord holding it to instantly pass all their FNP rolls.

I kind of like that as an "overcharge" option. Like the normal Res Orb allows a reroll, but once per game the Lord can overcharge the orb and resurrect everything that died this turn(everything within 6" is just not good enough as an overcharge ability, and too powerful as standard), but cannot use the resorb again afterwards. If they really are going to make it a one time use thing though, they damn well better drop the price.


I consider the lord a joke. He's practically on my team. He teleports nice expensive targets like immortals into heavy bolter/single-shot plasma/vindicator range for me and gets owned. Also he is completely weak compared to other ICs in scarier ranges like Chaos. He should be an expensive beast with awesome powers that terrify opponents.

No, thats not the Necron playstyle. The Lord is fine as is, he isn't supposed to be an all powerful god!!!!!111one1!1one, he's supposed to be the crux of a necron army, he is a support unit that should keep the rest of the army intact, not a one man show. As for Veil of Darkness assissting you more than hurting you, I don't know what your Necron opponents are like, but when I Veil of Darkness, my opponents usually want to cry afterwards, and those ain't no tears of joy...


--Tomb Spyders need the Carnifex treatment wicked bad...MC with cool upgrades to give the army some flexibility.

This I could maybe agree with... no no, never mind. MC yes, no upgrades(thats not the necron style). Although regeneration would be nice...


--Monolith needs to have a more interesting effect on the army, something like making the FNP roll easier within a short range of it, maybe?

It already has that for WBB?


--Heavy destroyers need reworking, maybe 2 wounds or a 2+ save or 2 shots, I dunno...something to make them not suck

/agree


--The omnipresent Pariah issues.

/agree


words...

Name: Changelings
Section : troops
Base size: small

...words

Where does this fit into the Necron army?


I like them rules njfed and i think they should be 12points each.
But i came up with a good one.

Necron Dephilaer W3 BS5 S4 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld10 Sv 4+
Squad size, 4-8
Gauss Burster: Assolt 1D6 S1 AP1 18"
Special rules: Deep stirke, Infiltrate, WBB

?!? What the hell kind of spell check are you using boy?!? No. No more making up statlines for units that shouldn't be there to begin with and won't be either. Bad! Don't make me get the newspaper!


To be honest, necrons losing WBB would be better... I like models staying dead after I kill the damn MEQ. WBB is a poorly worded rule, anyway: How does a Necron 'get back up' after being thrown into the warp? (Warp Cannon, the Marine psychic power, etc)...

...those weapons didn't have blanket rules to prevent them from doing so?

What can I tell you? Honestly, I don't know, and yes, it is a poorly worded rule.


It's a poorly built army, and TBH, I never enjoy the game.

I disagree, I think the Necrons are one(scratch that, THE MOST) of the most balanced and fluffy armies in the game at the moment. They are also the most unique.


Either I totally crush the Necron (e.g: My TMC tyranid type team, which necrons are generally weak against), or I have horrid luck and those Monoliths stay alive, and keep the 75% reraise rate up...

This is unfortunately a big issue with the 'crons. The dice are either with you or they aint.



It's a unique rule, but it was poorly thought out, priced, and executed, because of certain wargear. The Orb basically counters all the negatives of WBB, and it's stupidly easy to keep 1 model in range of the orb holder...

Which is why you concentrate fire on the Lord so the rest of the army falls apart? Again, the Lord is the crux of the army, without him, the rest quickly falls apart. Don't give me the "Independent Character" thing either, a few blast templates can work wonders...


Feel no pain is better than WBB.. I've beaten so many necron players because I killed the entire squad with no other necrons in range, so all 10 are dead.. With feel no pain you'd have to kill so many more..

It'll take more firepower to put them down, thats for sure. With the current rule, you can put down a squad(not kill, just put them down) and then move on to the next squad. If you play your cards right, by the end of your shooting phase you can put a ridiculous amount of firepower into the last couple of squads. With this new rule, you'll have to keep on pumping fire into a single unit over and over again n order to remove the squad as a viable threat, which means less firepower going to your other squads.


Shitlord, in my oppinion Necrons should cost 15 pts have SaP and FNP with T4, Necron army shouldn't be based on few hard to kill warriors but on countless models average to kill... Look at the codex pictures...
Hahahaa you spellt 'is name wrong. I agree(except at the "average to kill" part, they should be tough to kill, not that powerful individually offensively speaking, but they bring you down with weight of numbers.

grickherder
11-08-2007, 04:56
Well, I don't really believe the rumours are all that solid. They may end up being what is done, but there's just not enough info, no corroboration or anything. And Necrons aren't exactly that close on the redo list are they? (could be wrong about that)

So since we're just having a Rule Development forum discussion, I figured I'd add my phase out idea:

When the phase out point is reached, units start doing checks (Ld, something else)? When a unit fails the check at the beginning of the turn they are removed. As well if they lose a combat-- that unit will phase out. They lose 25% of their models to shooting, that unit will phase out.

EldarRaven
11-08-2007, 07:38
"40K its easier then Hungry Hungry Hippos!"

Sweet. I hope you don't mind that I used this as a sig.

Anyway. I played necrons as my opening army and that they where pretty great. I agrre with the people that say WWB and FNP are a great switch for each other. in the end it will not make much difference in game play other then in combat where those wounded necrons would still get to attack.

SAP is a pretty good twist to the army and make them fell like they are in the DOW game.

I do not like the removal of the phase out. It will make the necron models cost more then they should. It was put into place to keep the model price down.

Over all I think I will wait until the book gets closer to coming out before I believe any rumours.

Kirasu
11-08-2007, 08:12
It's amazing how when another army gets rending its "Unfluffy and a cop out" but when your army gets rending on a random CC unit it "makes sense and about time"

Hellebore
11-08-2007, 08:35
It's amazing how when another army gets rending its "Unfluffy and a cop out" but when your army gets rending on a random CC unit it "makes sense and about time"

Lol, so true.

I have actually been advocating replacing the flayer special rule with rending (or a rending lite) for a while now - it irritates me that they're flaying ability only works against tanks and not infantry (allowing you to always wound on a 6 is perhaps the most useless rule in the game) despite being one of the supposed nastiest weapons in the galaxy.

I would much prefer rending on gauss weapons over rending on the pointy knives on the fingers of the flayed ones. One actually rends at a molecular level, the other one just slices and dices in 4 different ways or your agony back.

Hellebore

HiveTrygon
11-08-2007, 15:41
One comment for thought. If they are taking the wbb away and the phase out, then why are they making the new necron lord seen in the apocalypse thread with reasurection orb? I guess they can make it something else latter but it seems useless. :confused: I would prefer the new rumours even though the wbb is the main idea behind necrons. They could alter the fluff that they are phased out and repaired when destroyed and thuss will be back "at a latter date" rule. :D

GreenDracoBob
11-08-2007, 19:01
I do agree that these rumors are a little less than solid. Though new information is always nice, isn't a little strange that this means there are more rumors for a mid- to late-2008 codex than there are for the Ork codex coming at the end of the year (at least that I've seen).

sanctusmortis
11-08-2007, 20:01
They have to do something, though. At the minute, it's better to have Warriors in combat than Flayed Ones... those pointy fingers do SQUAT. Still, rending's a little overdone... points increase and Power Weapon?

chaos0xomega
11-08-2007, 22:45
It's amazing how when another army gets rending its "Unfluffy and a cop out" but when your army gets rending on a random CC unit it "makes sense and about time"

For the record, I have never once complained about rending(aside from cursing beneath my breath when it puts a dent in my forces).


I have actually been advocating replacing the flayer special rule with rending (or a rending lite) for a while now - it irritates me that they're flaying ability only works against tanks and not infantry (allowing you to always wound on a 6 is perhaps the most useless rule in the game) despite being one of the supposed nastiest weapons in the galaxy.

The way it works against tanks is fine, but I do agree it has to be redone for infantry(I advocate an auto-wound on the to hit roll instead of to-wound roll).

The_Outsider
11-08-2007, 23:49
After thinking about it I will say this: this is the way forward for necrons.

Think about it, with T5 and FnP warriors they can spread out more and provide long range fire - something that currently lies with destroeyrs.

With no phase out current pariahs suddenly become awesome as they no longer pose a massive risk. Same for heavy destroyers.

It would also make warriors even BETTER as at the end of the day they can do it all as far as shooting goes, you would see flayed ones and more wratihs as the CC support.

Currently phase consticts our choices far too much - pariahs are a really awesome unit just not with phase out.

Then these changes literally mean necrons can do the "death march" - the warriors walk at you and simply do not stop, you shoot them they shrug it off and keep coming eliminating you with ruthless effeciency.

Even has a HUGE necron fan I can see the benefits these changes will give the race.

[edit] However with these changes CC become so much more of a threat than it is now.

scratchbuilt
11-08-2007, 23:51
I hope they don't get the +1 toughness. Would make ordinary weapons less useful and heavy weaponns too rare.

Sithlord
12-08-2007, 02:11
oh hell, just give FnP and SaP and no phase out without adding +1T. This is all I need on new necron army (I can take 3 monoliths and haywire :) )

MadDogMike
12-08-2007, 05:39
I'm still not sure about T6 Immortals. Partly that's the Nid player part of me thinking 'Hey, is everybody else getting T6? How come I'm stuck at 6/7?'

But I realise I'm over-reacting a little considering the number of T6 units there are...although T8 Wraithlords still annoys me.

Hey, they ARE named Immortals after all :D . And having something roughly the equivalent of Wraithguard makes perfect sense for the Necrons given they're supposed to be technologically equal at the least with the Eldar. More to the point, if you make every warrior able to fire at the same range as Immortals while moving thanks to SAP (which I LOVE as an idea for Necrons, feels perfect), the gauss blaster isn't enough of an upgrade to the Immortals to justify 10pts more/unit than warrior to me really (you'd get only a slight loss in shots at 24" if you spent the points on warriors instead), so if the warriors get +1T the Immortals would need the same boost too to stay viable. I also like that it gives the Immortals the distinct role in the Necron army of "those bastards who are even HARDER to kill than the rest"; lends itself to some nice tactical possibilities beyond Lord escort, like shock troops leading the way for the warrior horde. And again, fits the name and historical reference beautifully.

Overall I kind of like the suggested possibilities for the revision here; FNP vs. WBB seems like a simpler way to achieve roughly the same effect. Rez orb wouldn't even need a change since right now FNP doesn't work vs. Instant Death or power weapons. Not sure how the monolith would work, unless of course they just drop the repair bit. Tuning the Veil of Darkness to pop you out one turn then back in the next would make its use much more tactical, since you'd have to debate the value of re-striking vs. the loss of a turn of shooting. Less of a "always take one" item that way too, and makes it like the Swooping Hawk Exarch ability. Some of the other wargear like Lightning Field probably needs a bit of a buff, but not too much.

I think Pariahs need SOME kind of movement boost considering their major strength vs. Immortals is CC; right now they're the only CC unit I can think of in the entire game besides CC Carnifexes that can't move faster than 6" in some fashion, either by Deep Strike, Infiltrate, jump packs, or transport. Letting them teleport like other Necrons via Veil and monolith and FNP would probably be sufficient there. Right now given how much they suck thanks to the lack of that little "Necron" keyword (not just Phase Out, but no teleportation OR WBB) I die laughing hysterically at the idea of them as the "new and improved Necron" they supposedly are in fluff. If the C'Tan handed Immortals those gauss blaster warscythes they'd do a better job than the Pariah, and their anti-psyker abilities don't mean much when their speed ensures any vulnerable enemy can probably stay away from them until their non-reincarnating a**es are blown away. If they rip off DOW they might make Pariahs not Slow and Purposeful to fit how they could outrun the warriors there, but that wouldn't be critical really. Dunno what to do about the other two semi-inferior choices (flayed ones and tomb spiders) but there have been some good ideas offered in the thread.

GodHead
12-08-2007, 07:13
And having something roughly the equivalent of Wraithguard makes

If you think T6 with a 3+ save is "roughly the equivalent" of T6 with a 3+ save and FNP, you are wildly mistaken.

cuda1179
12-08-2007, 07:26
Well, that will just make three armies with troops that are toughness 6 with a 3+ save. Chaos, Eldar, Necron.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
12-08-2007, 10:39
no - eldar and necron - which chaos unit can do that ?

btw - tyranids have 3+ 4W "troops"

Wonna
12-08-2007, 10:51
no - eldar and necron - which chaos unit can do that ?

Bikers with an Icon of Nurgle become T4(6) under the new codex I believe.

The_Outsider
12-08-2007, 12:39
Well just imagine if they bumped Pariahs upto T6 - thats just sick.

But as I said before, the loss of phase makes Pariahs viable since they no longer pose anymoreo f a risk to the army than a warrior does (much like what terminators do for SM).

So I think they could in one move make all the (currently) crap units instantly viable.

Kelvan
12-08-2007, 13:31
No hard feelings Outsider but I dunno, are you fanatic of crappy, ****** pariahs? Even with T6 or without PO they would suck so hard because they cost 36 points and are CC units with lack of mobility, fleet, inv, countercharge, A1, I3. they have warscythes, so it means they are for kiling monstrous creatures, termies, IC... But they can't fight with them because are easily killed in HTH, even with static shooting army they can't get into enemy lines. They are UBER CRAP. Only fix can help, no changing rules in Necron mechanics...

Cheers.

njfed
12-08-2007, 14:54
News from LA Game day is that Dark Eldar are next after Orcs.
They just started working on DE, so I would expect that as the Fall 2008 release.

Bloodknight
12-08-2007, 15:20
No, "started working" means about two years till release.

sanctusmortis
12-08-2007, 18:18
Yeah, if they're at the "tossing around ideas" phase, it'll be a year minimum. Orks have been in that phase a long, long time...

HiveTrygon
12-08-2007, 18:40
I was just thinking of something. Now they are rumoured to make necrons T5 correct, does that mean just the warriors or anything that currently has the necron rule? Imagine T5 wraiths. I do however like the idea of T6 immortals quite a bit. I could see that being possible due to the fact Necrons are supposed to be more advanced than any other race, even the eldar which have the wraithguard as mentioned. I love the idea of FNP even though I'd loose the fluff of wbb.

The_Outsider
12-08-2007, 18:43
Pariahs are actually very good units when u8sed vs the right targets.

They absolutely own Carni's and terminayors - however I4 is their downside.

They only seem that craptastic because the lack of Necron status - they are tougher than what most other armies have but by necron standards they are fragile.

Since when has T5 3+ been poor by anyone's standards?

thedodgeypanda
12-08-2007, 20:12
i would like to see pariahs go up to 40points and have these changes
WS4 BS4 S4 T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld10 SV3+
Squad 4-10
Weapons: Warsyth with built in gauss blaster

Special rules
Saulless: same
Psychic abomination: same
Fearless: same
Abominations: All oposing units must take a ld test when wishing to shoot or asolt a Pariah squad if its failed they cannot shoot or assolt them, when the enmy is taking the assolt they need a ld test or can only hit on 6's if its failed THESE TESTS MUST BE TAKEN ON THEIR BASE Ld no other Things without a Ld Such as tanks cannot shoot or tank shock them on a roll of a 1. And cannot be instant killed.
Feel no pain: same

DoctorTom
12-08-2007, 22:53
Has anyone EVER seen a Necron player play a game of 40K without using Veil of Darkness and Resurrection Orb? I mean EVER even one time?! When certain tricks, spells or wargear are so powerful in an army that every single player who plays that army feels compelled to use exactly the same combinations every single time, then that army's Codex needs some changes. Talk about over-powered and boring combinations, the Necrons are seriously in need of a revision that will tempt Necron players to actually try out some of the other wargear, etc. available in their Codex.

Seen it? I've played Necron armies without Veil of Darkness (prefer to have Phase Shifter and Destroyer Body). Granted, right now you practically need the Res Orb, but that might change if they go to FNP with a +1 T.

The Dude
13-08-2007, 00:52
Yeah, if they're at the "tossing around ideas" phase, it'll be a year minimum. Orks have been in that phase a long, long time...

It was stated some time ago that Dark Eldar had their "tossing around ideas" phase at the same time as their Craftworld cousins. With that out of the way, and the rumours that some of the updated models have been done, I could see them being next after Orks.

Knightcrawler
13-08-2007, 03:41
Okay as a Necron player I'll offer my opinion.

WBB for FNP - This is good thing. No reason to have a separate rule for something nearly identical. The good and bad balance out.

S&P - Very good thing and makes troops actually useful and fits the fluff. But why the Immortals their already wielding an assault weapon and can fire on the move. Unless the Immortals are getting a weapon upgrade that would require S&P.

Phase Out Gone - I can get behind this, its a cheesy rule that has caused me to loose far too many battles and limits my unit choices even more than they already are.

Increased toughness - I'm relatively neutral on this. Increased toughness is good but not at making the units even more expensive.

A couple of things that need attention.

1. Flayed Ones - need some sort of boost. Perhaps in assault speed and toughness. I loose most of the ones that I field before they get into assault. Perhaps even rending.

2. Wraiths - Increased squad cap would be good.

3. Heavy Support - Give me something other than just the Heavy Destroyers that can take out terminators. And either boost HD's wounds or shots per turn, their just not worth the point cost.

4. Longer Range - I'm tired of loosing half my units to artillery before I get into range. That or sacrificing a lord and a high point unit for 1 or 2 turns of shooting when using Veil of Darkness.

5. Pariahs - So many problems, totally rework needed.

Acidreign
13-08-2007, 05:30
Having read through all (ATT) 9 pages, addressing this RUMOR, I'd like to chime in with my little "O"

The angle I come to this is that I play only one army ever since I've been playing WH40K and that's Necrons.

But first some highlights from a few post:

- I think EmperorEternalXIX (Post#116) chimed in with some excellent suggestions

- to gorgon (Post#133) who said

haven't heard rumors from trusted sources about new Dark Eldar miniatures and designs?
While I was at Gamesday Atlanta the guy there from GW main office specifically said that DE had a strong support in the development part of the company and he also indicated that one particular person was almost single handily redoing most all the models. I would quote exactly and also state names but I would have to dig out the MP3 that I recorded of the session, I'm too lazy to do that at this moment.

- chaos0xomega (Post#161) I too agree with his statement
(I advocate an auto-wound on the to hit roll instead of to-wound roll)
When I first started Necrons, I accidentally played this way because I miss read the rules (WOW, I'm certain I'm an isolated case on that one).

Back to the Bat Cave on Rumor Post #1, I concur with Brim, it's rumor. I don't buy it, but IF it's true that's ok, I'll still play Necs.


<< Post #1 >>
* WBB replaced with FNP.
* Necron Warriors and Immortals get SAP, T increase by 1, and point increase.
* Phase Out gone!
* Three different options of Necron Lords.
* Veil is nerfed (sends unit to reserve, but can deep-strike next turn).
* One new HS unit choice.

I don't see how Phase Out can be gone - I'd just play C'Tan and 3 Monoliths if that were to happen.... I'm sure if they do that, they would take that into account.

1. Phase Out Gone. I don't believe it. If they do take that away I'm VERY positive that Necrons will be loathed even more than they are now. I'll be showing up with Golden Boy and the floating hotels of death.
2. S&P I've always advocated this for the troops, but for both Immortals and Warriors, that will be just grand
3. WBB phased out to FNP - cool, it will change the dynamics of the army and the game considerably, so I think this change might be a down side for the opponents.
4. Added Toughness- that's fine. Everyone is dancing on the Power Curve as they race for godhood status for their army. Sort of reminds me of how everyone wants to put in the cheat code to a game so they can play invincibility.
5."New HQ" lord- a lot of us saw the Wraith lord in the last global battle royal. It'll probably something close to that. Imagine this HQ: 3+ Inv, A3, W3, S6 .. not too bad of a combo. My chips get pushed to that corner for the bet.
6. VoD modified. Well if they take the Tau's post-movement movement toys, the Space Wolves little VoD toy and some of the other pixie dust toys that other armies have, then sure, nerf it. And take that stupid line out of the Necron Codex saying "Being a master of time and space" Oh please, what a truck load of smelly fluff.
7. New HS unit? Maybe we will get a REAL tank of some sort with RANGE!!!

One thing that has not been mentioned in this thread that is truly Necron's greatest weakness and threat to them is the very low Initiative. If they keep the "I" low for Necrons, I would think some modification to lessen the sweeping advance would be in order.

Anywho, I'm phasing out while I still can...

~ar

Rlyehable
13-08-2007, 13:03
OK. My 2 cents worth...

FNP instead of WBB. A slight decrease in effectiveness as a trade for an easier to use rule.

SaP -- Gain for Necrons. They will be slightly slower, but with greater effective range.

T5 -- Combined with FNP? Better pay through the nose for this.

VoD -- More risky than before.

Res Orb -- Still useful, but not as much as before. I think a good trade would be to make units with a model within 6" of it a min. of T5 (instead of giving warriors T5 standard) and give a once per game ability to auto-pass FNP.

Knightcrawler
13-08-2007, 19:12
Pariahs are actually very good units when u8sed vs the right targets.

They absolutely own Carni's and terminayors - however I4 is their downside.


Their I3 not I4, which explains why you might be doing well against Terminators. I've always had my Pariahs owned when they go against Terminators. The Terminators always have a better initiative then the Pariahs in assault combined with usually taking a couple out as the Pariahs close into assault.

Khanaris
13-08-2007, 19:22
Well, most shooty Terminators should be striking with Power Fists at I1. Grey Knights and Terminators with Lightning Claws are still very good against Pariahs, though.

Personally, I think they need to do more to balance Infantry-heavy Necrons against armies that rely on ranged combat. As it is, close-combat armies have too much of an advantage against WBB, and shooty armies, particularly the Tau, have no good way to get around it.

The_Outsider
13-08-2007, 19:44
Their I3 not I4, which explains why you might be doing well against Terminators. I've always had my Pariahs owned when they go against Terminators. The Terminators always have a better initiative then the Pariahs in assault combined with usually taking a couple out as the Pariahs close into assault.

Yeah it was a typo I missed.

Most terminators have powerfists thus wil lbe striking after the pariahs.

zog100
13-08-2007, 19:48
With FNP replacing WBB, it would seem reasonable that some variation of the Apocalypse 3xMonolith enhancement would be introduced. If within 18" of a Monolith, FNP is 3+. If within an Apocalypse style triangle of Monoliths....?

Voss
13-08-2007, 20:08
OK. My 2 cents worth...

FNP instead of WBB. A slight decrease in effectiveness as a trade for an easier to use rule.


Where are people getting the idea that these are equivalent, or FNP is worse? It isn't. Its strictly better. Do the math, folks.

-Its harder to wipe out a unit. With WBB, you could kill each model once, and as long as there wasn't a close tomb spyder and another unit of the same time about, it was gone. Now you have to keep killing them until they all fail the FNP roll.

-Its harder to force a morale check. Yes, kids, Necrons do have to take Morale checks. With a 4+ on the spot to not die, its harder to hit the threshold for checks.

-It even increases the viability of Necrons in close combat, as the checks happen instantly and any Necrons that pass are still there, and can attack back.

Not sure how it will interact with some of the Lord's kit, Tomb Spyders and the Monolith teleport, but those will obviously have to be redone or tweaked with any new rules in mind. A frightening thought on the Tomb Spyder... keeping Necrons around is its role. What if it provides a bonus or reroll to the FNP check?

revford
13-08-2007, 20:27
FNP, SAP, +1 T and no Phase Out, looks like one of the best units in the Necron army, Warriors, are getting a ton of upgrades. Replace Gauss with Rending and we've got 30pts a beast for our only troops choice.

My current army is just Warriors and Destroyers, Lord with the usual wargear suspects.

Pariahs are currently horrible need a total rethink and new models, these are I think the only models that need to be replaced.

Flayed Ones, Immortals, Heavy Destroyers and Tomb Spiders need something to make them worth taking over more Warriors or Destroyers.

Wraiths and Scarabs are nice as they are, but struggle to compete for fast attack slots against the Destroyers.

A few little tweaks just like the Tau got would make me happy, the Necrons don't need a big overhaul.

All I really want from a new Codex is plastic Wraiths.

lunacite
13-08-2007, 20:40
Flayed ones really need to be a troops choice, IMO

revford
13-08-2007, 20:57
Flayed ones really need to be a troops choice, IMO

They do, you're right.

But even as a Troops choice, would you really pick Flayed Ones over more Warriors?

RedHarvest
13-08-2007, 21:04
Of course this is all pure speculation, but I might as well add my 2c on a few Necron related things:

Pariahs are awful and a waste atm. I hate them - can' you tell? :D Effective Necron forces are about the overall synergy of the army in my opinion, and Pariahs do nothing to assist that synergy. They stay on my shelf and never leave it.

Flayed Ones as a Troop choice is something I have thought myself; as Elites they are simply underpowered. Either make them better or move them to Troops and be done with it.

Regarding the Rumors themselves -

I could do without the additional toughness; I don't want Warriors to get more expensive and I feel Immortals are overpriced but it may be unavoidable.

FNP v. WBB? This may happen just because its easier, not necessarily because its better.

SaP? Sure - why not.

Different Kinds of Lords? Man I hope so - an expensive HQ with the same WS and BS as Warrior is ridiculous. Maybe one that is cheaper, and one that is more expensive, or two that are cheaper - I dunno, but something needs to be done here for some additional options.

I loved being able to get the Pariah Gene on my Lord for Dark Crusade.

Phase Out Gone? Good - it will make games more fun for both people in my opinion.

big squig
14-08-2007, 03:39
Personally, I like FNP much much more than WBB. To me the idea of robots pulling them selves back together in a blink of an eye almost magically seemed silly. I like the idea of them being like arnold form the termy movies where he can just slug off shots. I mean a robot doesn't feel pain...so feel no pain seems plenty suiting. They just need to drop some of the overly silly fluff from the necrons.

Also, its a lot easier rules wise. It's pretty much the same thing, but doesn't add another phase to the game. It also only requires a little line saying go to his page of the rule book for details on FNP, instead of a whole page devoted to WBB followed by tons WD and online eratta.

big squig
14-08-2007, 03:41
Also, I'd like to see Pariahs as squad sargents.

thedodgeypanda
14-08-2007, 05:11
Well i have been using a new list recently...(3/3 games i pawned) 3 squads of 10 immortals, 2 lords 2 squads of warriors (stand in front of the imortals , closest target) a squad of scabs 2 squads of destroyers and 2 heavy destroyers. Its a lovely 2k list

Chief L. Rome
14-08-2007, 05:24
Folks. Friends and foes of the Necrons and their masters. You all have your reasons to love/hate Necrons since their 1st sightings and we all had different ways to see them.

Seen the same responses around and I had a post in some thread for a 'wish list' for Necrons.

Things I agree on:
-No Phase Out. It is DEMORALIZING to play 2-4 turns so that your friends who either play a FAST, ASSAULT or SHOOTY army kill you w/o u even attacking due to their low I.

-Toughness. No instakills from S8 wpns no more but, HOW would they fare against AP3 or lower wpns?

-New Units. I remember seeing this kid model a Lord with a Wraith body and NO it can't be called Wraithlord. It was awesome tho. The HS? I hope is something never seen before and I absolutely agree. Bring in the RAIN.

Things I disagree on:
-We'll Be Back!>Feel No Pain. You do this, and eventually Marines don't benefit from And They Shall Know No Fear, Chaos don't benefit from their Daemon Summonings and other armies LOSE their DAMN FLUFF which makes them WHO THEY ARE! How would YOU feel if your individuality was 'streamlined' and became a universal thing?

-Slow And Purposeful. Warriors are something that can scare you. Flayed Ones do a LOT. Immortals? I guess since most players teleport them out n about. Losing the +1A is a sad thing.

What I'd like to see:
-A Open-topped fast skimmer for Necrons. Think Wave Serpent.
-F. Ones into Troops. Maybe used like a scout force to slow down the rest of the opposition and either give them Rend to them or....
-Wraiths! They are INVISIBLE jetbikes with a great Inv. Give them REND?
-A C'tan. bah! THAT'S wishful thinkin.

That's all folks. I would rather wait until the 'dex comes out and SOLID leads arrive from a GW LEGIT source.
Enjoy these last times while we can. Good times....

Carlos
14-08-2007, 10:05
FnP vs WBB: Its the same bloody rule! It just saves loads of time rolling dice at the start of the turn for all your fallen soldiers. Having T5 will make them exceptionally hard to kill. How will they fare vs AP3 weapons? better than they do now!
WBB is spoken of as the only rule that defines the character of Necrons but surely this is the opposite? Necrons are based on the Terminator and the last time I checked Arnie didnt fall over on his face with every bullet he took to the chest, he carried on walking forwards arbeit at a slower pace. Therefore Feel no Pain is actually a much better example of their fluff than WBB!

Speaking of Terminator some new models and rules for Flayed ones being made of liquid metal would be rather cool. If anything needed rending its these guys. Id give Wraiths power weapons as they have a high enough Strength already. An extra wound here wouldnt go amiss either.

Scarabs should be a bit cheaper and possibly NOT count towards FoC choices, so you could take 3 units of wraiths and a horde of scarabs as a viable army and the loss of Phase out would make it possible. Hell, Id play it.

Xandros
14-08-2007, 14:34
Disruptor field= Rending? Hmmmm...

neXus6
14-08-2007, 14:42
Well back when necrons first came out in 2nd ed they were pretty much just tough robots whos corpses vanished without a trace. FnP, +1 T and no phase out kinda feels more like that Old character than the current rules ever have.
I'd like something to be done with Scarabs cause I always liked their 2nd ed and early 3rd ed style more than what they are now.

Rabid Bunny 666
14-08-2007, 14:51
Where are people getting the idea that these are equivalent, or FNP is worse? It isn't. Its strictly better. Do the math, folks.

-Its harder to wipe out a unit. With WBB, you could kill each model once, and as long as there wasn't a close tomb spyder and another unit of the same time about, it was gone. Now you have to keep killing them until they all fail the FNP roll.

-Its harder to force a morale check. Yes, kids, Necrons do have to take Morale checks. With a 4+ on the spot to not die, its harder to hit the threshold for checks.

-It even increases the viability of Necrons in close combat, as the checks happen instantly and any Necrons that pass are still there, and can attack back.

Not sure how it will interact with some of the Lord's kit, Tomb Spyders and the Monolith teleport, but those will obviously have to be redone or tweaked with any new rules in mind. A frightening thought on the Tomb Spyder... keeping Necrons around is its role. What if it provides a bonus or reroll to the FNP check?


I know, its as if the scariest threat in the Warhammer mythos is getting... y'know, scarier.

If these rumors are true, fighting Necrons is no longer gonna be "shoot the weak stuff until the bigger, tougher stuff disappears" so you're gonna have to use tactics to wipe them out. Remeber S&P means you'll most likely be getting a few extra turns of shots off against them than you would without it.

big squig
15-08-2007, 01:13
Even if they get rid of WBB for FNP (and they should) They will still prolly have units or wargear that can bring models back on to the board. Tomb Spiders will have to be re-written and they could easily give them a resurrection ability. Same thing with the monolith.

FNP is just so much more fitting. They're robots...they don't feel pain...and it's almost the exact same rule just much shorter, simpler, and without all the many pages of FAQs.

Also, wouldn't S&P allow necrons to move, shoot rapid fire, and then charge?!

Voss
15-08-2007, 01:23
@Carlos & big squig

Its the same rule if, and only if, you ignore the impact the change has on the units in close combat, the impact it has on unit psychology and the impact it has on wiping out the unit. But, hey, that stuff is trivial, right?

Good or bad, its a big change that goes far beyond when you take the 4+ roll.

Mewy
15-08-2007, 01:55
@Carlos & big squig

Its the same rule if, and only if, you ignore the impact the change has on the units in close combat, the impact it has on unit psychology and the impact it has on wiping out the unit. But, hey, that stuff is trivial, right?

Good or bad, its a big change that goes far beyond when you take the 4+ roll.

And in a way it's balanced out with +1 T, which can turn the tide of battle when it comes to taking damage... many Death Guard players I'm sure can vouch for this.

Minion
15-08-2007, 02:05
To be honest i like the codex the way it is ok its kinda limited on troop choices etc etc but it kicks ass.and why have lords with Orbs???what happened to tomb spyder??? i mean hey.list is good and well balanced needs no more or less

Deathwing_Matt
15-08-2007, 02:55
I dont mind the idea of FNP instead of WBB

As mentioned above, they are pretty much the same, although there will have to be a couple of other things looked into for it to work

a) In the movement phase a monolith teleporting a necron unit allows that unit to re-roll WBB. If teleporting is still part of movement, then itd be difficult to roll for models which have already left the table.

b) The fact that necrons can only use WBB if within 6" of a similar model (12" if a tomb spyder nearby)

However, this overall is not a bad idea as it

a) Makes it easier to learn the game

b) universal rules let players know what they are up against as a pose to being presented with some special rule that isn't used elsewhere; it adds transparency to the game

Voss
15-08-2007, 03:42
And in a way it's balanced out with +1 T, which can turn the tide of battle when it comes to taking damage... many Death Guard players I'm sure can vouch for this.


...
Better and extra better makes for 'balanced'? I don't get it.
FNP is better than WBB.
+1 Toughness is clearly better than +0 Toughness.
Combined the two, and you get something that is... not better? Eh?
2+1+1 = 2?
No, I'm pretty sure its 4.
:wtf:

gLOBS
15-08-2007, 04:23
-We'll Be Back!>Feel No Pain. You do this, and eventually Marines don't benefit from And They Shall Know No Fear, Chaos don't benefit from their Daemon Summonings and other armies LOSE their DAMN FLUFF which makes them WHO THEY ARE! How would YOU feel if your individuality was 'streamlined' and became a universal thing?

ATSKNF is a universal special rule.

big squig
15-08-2007, 05:41
I dont mind the idea of FNP instead of WBB

As mentioned above, they are pretty much the same, although there will have to be a couple of other things looked into for it to work

a) In the movement phase a monolith teleporting a necron unit allows that unit to re-roll WBB. If teleporting is still part of movement, then itd be difficult to roll for models which have already left the table.

b) The fact that necrons can only use WBB if within 6" of a similar model (12" if a tomb spyder nearby)


a) Just make it so if any unit goes through the monolith, roll a die for every dead model in the unit. On a roll of a 6+ (or 5+ maybe) the model is added back to the unit with one wound.

b) Drop the silly being within 6" of a unit of the same type rule and re-write the tomb spider so it does something different, like all necron units withing 6" pass FNP on 3+ instead of 4+.

Deadly Buddah
15-08-2007, 08:28
ATSKNF is a universal special rule.
One which loyalist space marines, and ONLY loyalist space marines, will ever have reasonable access to.

The first person who brings up Alfs will be shot. Two doctrines, X points, and free 3+'s for your opponent isn't reasonable by anyone's definition.

gLOBS
15-08-2007, 08:28
Or a reroll which would be more powerful.

Midnight_Walker
15-08-2007, 08:58
I for one will be somewhat glad if We'll Be Back is replaced by Feel No Pain.
Why? Because everyone knows how to spell Feel No Pain. For some reason, almost the entire internet shortens We'll Be Back to "WWB"! :wtf: What's the second W for? It drives me nuts.

Thanatos_elNyx
15-08-2007, 10:07
b) Drop the silly being within 6" of a unit of the same type rule and re-write the tomb spider so it does something different, like all necron units withing 6" pass FNP on 3+ instead of 4+.

Perhaps they could take a leaf from Dawn of War's book.
When a Necrons dies within 12" of a Tomb Spyder, put it to one side, when you have 5+ models of a type saved up (or 10+ whatever) you can deploy them as a new unit within 6" of the Spyder.

Rlyehable
15-08-2007, 10:27
OK. My 2 cents worth...

FNP instead of WBB. A slight decrease in effectiveness as a trade for an easier to use rule.


Where are people getting the idea that these are equivalent, or FNP is worse? It isn't. Its strictly better. Do the math, folks.

-Its harder to wipe out a unit. With WBB, you could kill each model once, and as long as there wasn't a close tomb spyder and another unit of the same time about, it was gone. Now you have to keep killing them until they all fail the FNP roll.

OK. I never faced a Necron force without a Rez Orb or one where the warriors were stuck out away from another warrior unit.

Here is How WBB is slightly better IMO:
With WBB: A necron warrior falls to normal attacks, so you lay it on its side. The powerfist has no chance to wound it since it is not in combat. It makes WBB and stands back up.
With FNP: A necron warrior falls to normal attacks, it makes FNP and so ignores the wound. Now the powerfist gets to target it, reducing it to scrap.
IE. if a warror falls to a high initiative attack, it is immune to further attacks for the round. With FNP, it is still subject to further attacks at a lower initiative.
The counter argument, of course, is that the Necron that makes FNP may attack at its initiative.

Again, there is a difference. And in my opinion WBB is slightly better. However, the difference is so slight that it is hardly noticeable.

Kelvan
15-08-2007, 10:35
I don't like any idea which involve puting my precious painted figures on its side... Get rid of it.

The_Outsider
15-08-2007, 11:35
WBB comes out better than FNP when things like the res orb and monolith start to stack.

Though technically the res orb need not change at all, it could just allow FnP saves against power weapons and vs instant death.

I do see this meaning the monolith being much better (along with C'tan, pariahs etc) as you have no worry of it running away.

On a C'tan related note they really need to get faster movement (be it fleet, jump pack, something similar to wraithflight/whatever).

thedodgeypanda
15-08-2007, 14:22
Me and a friend just had a 2250pts game using the feel no pain. It does have its advantages.... when being shot with star cannon after star cannon. But i did have a bit more freedom to move units around, especialy since i didnt need to keep them all in Rez orb range and i spent the 80pts i had on rezorbos on a couple of flayed ones (by the way 1unit of flayed ones with FNP is disgusting in close combat they pawned thair way through all the weapon plat forms by the end of the game). Now my 2 immortal units were SICK AS HELL, In combat even they took a blade storm and alot of other shots (3 wounded 2 past armour saves 1 passed FNP) then my immortals blasted and ASSOLTED a unit and well the eldar went 1st (damn I5) but i faild 3 SV's and passed all my FNP rolls so i had a full 9 immortals striking back (in the curent rules i would only have 6 striking back) and the immortals just walked thrugh them......But was realy sick were my wriths with ny lord on Destryer body none of my wraiths took a wound the entire game because of the 3+inv an 4+FNP. And thanks to feal no pain i had 2 units of 20 warriors FLANKING! DIFFRENT FLANKS. But in all FNP did have its advantages and the 1 folt of it not working trugh the monolith on a re-roll (justefies the 235pts cost and balances this floting toob out a bit more) But the hugest disapoint ment, i could never get my FNP againsed rending S8hits or power weapons or 3 wraith lords :(, but a rapid firing squad of warriors took 1 down and my lord with warsyth took the other after 4 rounds of combat with his wriath unit. The other i just avoided as it was held up by scarabs for an entire game:D

But all in all i love well be back and feal no pain does do necrons justice.
Sorry for spelling mistakes and bad grammer because im in a rush :D.

Achilles
15-08-2007, 15:46
The ressurection Orb, Tomb Spider & Monolith all could have the same rule: when a model (or unit) is within 6" of the Orb or 12" for the Spider or Monolith, It can make a Feel No Pain even against Power weapons or Double Toughness weapons... simple?

All in all, I like WBB, but agree on FNP as an easier, faster play. +1 T on warriors... well they used to be T5 anyway (in 2nd Ed.) so i can agree on that. SAP to, a good rule for warriors. But for Imortals its not a bonus, its a penalty. if they get T6 (wow), they'd be like Wraithguard with longer range, but even slower. and would this mean destroyers & lords get a T increase to? no way...

Rending for Gauss weapons... please no. I like it as is, although rending would rock against any MEQ army. but i feel that would be to much Cheese. the way rending penetrates Vehicles used to be the way necron Gauss weapons did it (again, 2nd ed.) but that was before the general glancing hit table even existed.

Fred_Scuttle
15-08-2007, 15:57
Something to keep in mind from GW's standpoint.....depending on how far along the Necron re-write and playtesting is - we can see from Apocalypse that WBB is still in their future ( long term? short term?) plans.

The benifit of having multiple monoliths ( 3 ) strengthens your WBB roll. This may be an indicator that WBB will be staying longer than going.

Or - they could be using it NOW so that the Necrons get something NOW and just FAQ'ing Apocalypse when the Necron book gets redone....

Just a thought.

Fred

Achilles
15-08-2007, 16:23
since its a Datasheet and Datasheets are supposedly frequently updated on the Apocalypse site... its a given

MadDogMike
15-08-2007, 17:03
One thing nobody's complained about (and I'm not either) is the rumored point increase; whether or not you consider FNP and SAP buffs, if Necrons get a +1T across the board they'll definitely need a surcharge added. But how much higher do you think the cost will be? 5 per model? More? Less?

Thanatos_elNyx
15-08-2007, 17:11
One thing nobody's complained about (and I'm not either) is the rumored point increase; whether or not you consider FNP and SAP buffs, if Necrons get a +1T across the board they'll definitely need a surcharge added. But how much higher do you think the cost will be? 5 per model? More? Less?

Well since WBB and FNP are roughly interchangeable and SaP has both pros and cons.
The only thing they could charge for is +1T but then if Phase Out is removed then Warriors become less valuable.
Marines got cheaper but became better.
It also depends on what they change Gauss to.

So the end result of all that is that the rumour is that they'll get an increase but I honestly hope it ain't much. If anything, changing them to 20 even and Immortals to 30 even would make army construction a little easier!

azimaith
15-08-2007, 19:23
Whats with this notion that FNP and WBB are even near the same level of power?

A model with WBB and a single wound can soak up 1 wound a turn.

A model with FNP and a single wound can soak up infinite numbers of wounds.

FNP would make necrons much much harder to kill. Something like 25%- 50% more difficult because any necrons who made their FNPs would stay to make more.

Slow and Purposeful really should have been a warrior thing since the start. (along with stuff like chronometrons giving you Move through cover/re-rolls).

I'd prefer to see the gauss weapon rule reworked to be more balanced (not less or more powerful, but a more even spread of utility) Basically the flayers become 24" S3 AP-, heavy 2(or assault, depending on SAP) and 3 shots in 12". You get slightly more killing power against marines and the same killing power versus 5+ saves. The rules against vehicles would be you get to roll an additional D6 on a penetration roll of a 6. With the removal of AP values from most necron weapons (leaving basically AP on the heavy gauss cannon and thats it) balanced by increased shots you'd see an improvement versus big nasty things with good saves and a leveling out against vehicles.

Also remember with no AP you can not penetrate a vehicle, thus it always inflicts glancing hits as before, it just means its easier for a gauss flayer to glance a rhino than a land raider, as it should be.

Regardless, these rumors seem unlikely. They would make necrons even harder to kill than they are now.

Smokedog
15-08-2007, 20:34
IMO giving any model +1 T and FNP, is justfication enough for a 5pts increase, even if it had WBB before.

I would guess that GW will comprimise and make them 22pts each, even though these romours seem to have no basis other than, "some guy told me that..." they do seem to be better tought through than most and so may have an element of truth.. only time will tell.

Ozendorph
15-08-2007, 21:23
IMO giving any model +1 T and FNP, is justfication enough for a 5pts increase, even if it had WBB before.

I would guess that GW will comprimise and make them 22pts each, even though these romours seem to have no basis other than, "some guy told me that..." they do seem to be better tought through than most and so may have an element of truth.. only time will tell.

Well, if the toughness boost and FNP comes along with Slow and Purposeful, a 4-5 point increase might be deemed a bit harsh. Anyway, even if these rumors hold true, there are many other ramifications to factor in to the point cost, such as the changing effects/availability of Rez Orbs, Spiders, and 'liths.

thewizard99
15-08-2007, 23:33
bah they sound like there tkaing everything away from them we love, ok they changed a few bits from 2nd ed to 3rd, and now to 4th. yes the lith rules was way to complex, and the WBB rules is a bit well powerful, but its what they do, what other way can necrons rise from the grown again terminator style?

Kirasu
16-08-2007, 00:27
Slow and purposeful should be a point *increase* for necrons considering it certainly NOT a disadvantage for them lol.. FNP, +1T and SnP is a huge boost.. Hell Id take slow and purposeful on every model I could even in a marine army if able.. Terrain is a huge part of 40k, most units have to roll 2d6 to move anyway

-IronWarrior-
16-08-2007, 11:44
If "phase out" is gone they better be getting one hell of a points cost increase.

Without that rule they are in my opinion the best army you can field next to an all close combat Tyranid Army.

This is based on just their stats and the amount of fire power they can dish out for tournament and league play.

Stingray_tm
16-08-2007, 11:57
FNP would make necrons much much harder to kill.

I disagree. When someone fires at a Necron unit and manages to inflict more wounds, than there are Necrons in the unit, than every Necron, who is "down", is safe from excessive damage.

Also FNP doesn't work against rending. I am playing Tyranids...

Kriegsherr
16-08-2007, 12:09
I disagree. When someone fires at a Necron unit and manages to inflict more wounds, than there are Necrons in the unit, than every Necron, who is "down", is safe from excessive damage.

Also FNP doesn't work against rending. I am playing Tyranids...

Not really.... We don't know what tomb-"cows"... sorry spiders do under this rumoured new rules, so we better leave them out of the equation.... and without them, a unit that has his last 'cron downed and isn't near another 'cron unit of the same type is out of the game as far as I remember the WBB Rules. So its only useful if you have spider or other units nearby, and only in the case of a very large amount of firepower.

WBB also doesn't works against rending... or have I missed something? some FAQ or stuff? If an attack doesn't allow saves, WBB and FNP are both out of the game.....

Aggredior
16-08-2007, 12:33
Just to throw in my two credits.

It seems the Necron army needed way to many special, race-specific rules to be able to work. If all armies could start out with a minimum of special rules and simply use ones from the main rulebook, the game would be simplified alot more. While each army does require at least one special, race-specific rule to work, such as ATSKNF for SpaM or Synapse for Bugs, I think Necrons had too many for an army as powerful and riddled with hard hitting troops. I think Phase Out would be a ver characterful option for Necrons, but the replacement of WBB with FNP is just a much simpler way of doing it.

RedHarvest
16-08-2007, 13:33
Not really.... We don't know what tomb-"cows"... sorry spiders do under this rumoured new rules, so we better leave them out of the equation.... and without them, a unit that has his last 'cron downed and isn't near another 'cron unit of the same type is out of the game as far as I remember the WBB Rules. So its only useful if you have spider or other units nearby, and only in the case of a very large amount of firepower.

WBB also doesn't works against rending... or have I missed something? some FAQ or stuff? If an attack doesn't allow saves, WBB and FNP are both out of the game.....

WBB only does not work against rending in CC w/o a Rez Orb - it works against rending from shooting even without one.

At leat for me, the last thing I want to see is Necron Warriors become more expensive, but of course any "improvements" will come at a cost, which is only to be expected - but I am loathe to pay more points for Warriors and Immortals unless they do something really useful. I do feel that the Gauss weapon needs some kind of improvement though.

Other units actually need to go down in point cost unless again, they really make them better and not ridiculously weak (Pariahs and Wraiths are worthless for the point costs and current ruleset as far as I am concerned.)

Thanatos_elNyx
16-08-2007, 13:34
WBB also doesn't works against rending... or have I missed something? some FAQ or stuff? If an attack doesn't allow saves, WBB and FNP are both out of the game.....

Though Off Topic,
Rending from Shooting can be saved by FNP and WBB.
Rending from Close combat can not be saved by FNP and WBB.

Wolflord Havoc
16-08-2007, 14:00
I like the sound of these romours.

I have never liked the way the crons work.

I would like to see the lith get some proper rules and the living metal rule 'simplified'. Also I do not think that it should be allowed to use its portal the turn it arrives (if deep striking) as this becomes an unstoppable no brainer tactic (I use the word 'tactic' losely here). And don't get me started on the particle cannons ability to 'snipe'.

Also scarab swarms and destroyers have always seemed to be too powerful for their points cost IMO. Perhaps if Scarab swarms moved as jump packers rather than jetbikes or increased in cost. I mean what is deadlier a Tau Drone or a Scarab swarm?. Now compare points costs. IMO they should be up in the 30 points range. Destroyers are able to rampage around the field of battle skimming over terrain - redeploying at will - with an S6 move and fire heavy bolter - and able if neccesary to hold their own in HTH these abilities should cost more - but at half the points of a Dark Angel Land Speeder 'Assault cannon' Tornado I feel that they are too cheap.

Phew! Terribly sorry everyone - that turned in to something of a mini rant

I have no problem with Warriors and Immortals being T5/T6 respectively and getting the SAP (Slow and Perposeful) rule.

I would love to see a Necron Spider lord rather than (or more likely) or in addition to the Destroyer lord and basic lord.

Thanatos_elNyx
16-08-2007, 15:15
Also scarab swarms and destroyers have always seemed to be too powerful for their points cost IMO. Perhaps if Scarab swarms moved as jump packers rather than jetbikes or increased in cost. I mean what is deadlier a Tau Drone or a Scarab swarm?. Now compare points costs. IMO they should be up in the 30 points range. Destroyers are able to rampage around the field of battle skimming over terrain - redeploying at will - with an S6 move and fire heavy bolter - and able if neccesary to hold their own in HTH these abilities should cost more - but at half the points of a Dark Angel Land Speeder 'Assault cannon' Tornado I feel that they are too cheap.

When Scarabs have trouble justifying their cost at 12/16 pts how do you justify a 30 pts cost? I use Scarabs alot but they are a swamp unit more than anything else.

As for Destroyers, they are cool but they are NOT able to hold their own in CC. Also Assault Cannons are away better that Gauss Cannon so there is no grounds for comparison.

phonchoman
16-08-2007, 15:41
current rons are a joke , they are supposed to be slow! , just like the terminator, relentlessly following you "Are you Sarah Connor?" "BANG!" :skull::chrome:
However currently they are uber fast and totally out of character, and i really dont buy into the whole "they are changing what i love about them" this is total tosh, because the current rules are way ahead of that codex. For example ,my pet peav "scarabs" , people abusing badly written rules and turbo boosting scarabs! give me break , little spiders moving as fast as things with giant rockets built in! this was never the idea behind them but this will change ,are the ron players gonna say "i always loved that!" ? , i hope not , because its pure tosh!
So roll on new rules, i love them so far T5 and FNP :D

the reality is , turboboost was a dark eldar only power when the rons codex came out, the rule book wanted to update fast units , some how the rons got really mixed up in there. So more like DOW please! slow and unstoppable (till my marine power weapon the head off them! :D

phonchoman
16-08-2007, 15:44
also , you could make destroyers and co. like tau crisis suits, move 6 and assault phase 6, could make them much better and harder to kill too! and no more flying around ultra fast

Brother Loki
16-08-2007, 15:47
The main thing i'd like to see is for destroyers and scarabs to not move as jetbikes. There's nothing in their background to imply they turbo boost all over the place. It's just that in 4th ed, all bike type units were standardised.

azimaith
16-08-2007, 16:44
If "phase out" is gone they better be getting one hell of a points cost increase.

Without that rule they are in my opinion the best army you can field next to an all close combat Tyranid Army.

This is based on just their stats and the amount of fire power they can dish out for tournament and league play.

An all CC tyranid army is pretty terrible. Tanks run you over with little issue and your practically defenseless against skimmers. So thats not really a good comparison. Maybe an eldar mech army is a better one.


I disagree. When someone fires at a Necron unit and manages to inflict more wounds, than there are Necrons in the unit, than every Necron, who is "down", is safe from excessive damage.

And if you have FNP the entire squad wouldn't have gone down in the first place.
WBB is 3+ save and 4+ wbb. They can absorb a single shot.

FNP is a 3+ save and a 4+ FNP and they can absorb shot after shot.

If a squad of 10 warriors is shot with a plasma gun and 2 warriors get wounded FNP means that at the end of it both warriors could still be standing, if its with WBB 2 warriors are down with no question about it.

If you inflict excessive wounds on a necron squad that means you've killed all the necrons in range of your weapons one time.

If you inflict excessive wounds on a FNP necron squad it means you've killed every necron at least once, and quite likely more than once. FNP is just overall better. Its much harder to get rid of them via overkill comparatively.




Also FNP doesn't work against rending. I am playing Tyranids...
Neither does WBB whats your point.

You can't claim the res orb negates that for one and not the other because its unknown if the res-orb will continue its current role for the Necron army, affecting FNP rather than WBB.


I like the sound of these romours.

I have never liked the way the crons work.

I would like to see the lith get some proper rules and the living metal rule 'simplified'. Also I do not think that it should be allowed to use its portal the turn it arrives (if deep striking) as this becomes an unstoppable no brainer tactic (I use the word 'tactic' losely here). And don't get me started on the particle cannons ability to 'snipe'.

What the hell is so complicated about Living Metal? If you get bonuses to penetration or lower the armor of a lith you don't get it. I don't understand why people have a hard time wrapping their brains around it.

As for the portal being used on the deep strike and the particle whip. They're both practically non-issues compared to the re-roll. The re-roll is what makes the monolith too good, not the particle whip or the deep striking.



Also scarab swarms and destroyers have always seemed to be too powerful for their points cost IMO. Perhaps if Scarab swarms moved as jump packers rather than jetbikes or increased in cost. I mean what is deadlier a Tau Drone or a Scarab swarm?. Now compare points costs. IMO they should be up in the 30 points range.

Who in the hell would buy a T3 5+ save 3 wound model for 30 points with no decent ranged weapons, and a WS and INit of 2. Scarab swarms are just barely underpriced as is, other swarms in the game are laughable. Tau gun drones do different things compared to scarabs and its not fair to compare them as they run entirely different ways.



Destroyers are able to rampage around the field of battle skimming over terrain - redeploying at will - with an S6 move and fire heavy bolter - and able if neccesary to hold their own in HTH these abilities should cost more - but at half the points of a Dark Angel Land Speeder 'Assault cannon' Tornado I feel that they are too cheap.
Yeah, they're jet bikes with a 3 shot S6 gun and they ain't cheap. Destroyers are fine as they are. They don't pack the number of shots or the quality of shots a assault cannon running land speeder does.


current rons are a joke , they are supposed to be slow! , just like the terminator, relentlessly following you "Are you Sarah Connor?" "BANG!" :skull::chrome:

No, necron *warriors* are supposed to be slow. The rest of the necrons are fast moving. Its hard to raid if your too slow to do anything and keep suprise.



However currently they are uber fast and totally out of character, and i really dont buy into the whole "they are changing what i love about them" this is total tosh, because the current rules are way ahead of that codex.

Being fast isn't out of character for necrons. Necrons are raiders, they're supposed to be fast, the only thing thats slow is the walking speed of the necron warrior.



For example ,my pet peav "scarabs" , people abusing badly written rules and turbo boosting scarabs! give me break , little spiders moving as fast as things with giant rockets built in! this was never the idea behind them but this will change ,are the ron players gonna say "i always loved that!" ? , i hope not , because its pure tosh!
So roll on new rules, i love them so far T5 and FNP :D

Its not abusing rules to actually use them as they are written. It says they move as jetbikes. Jetbikes can turbo boost. I guess if the rules aren't as you'd like they its automatically abuse for someone to use em.



the reality is , turboboost was a dark eldar only power when the rons codex came out, the rule book wanted to update fast units , some how the rons got really mixed up in there. So more like DOW please! slow and unstoppable (till my marine power weapon the head off them! :D
And now turbo boost is a power for everyone who has a bike or jetbike, which includes necrons. In DOW necrons are fast, destroyers, destroyer lords, and scarabs all move faster than infantry while teleportation makes necrons one of the fastest moving races in the entire game.


The main thing i'd like to see is for destroyers and scarabs to not move as jetbikes. There's nothing in their background to imply they turbo boost all over the place. It's just that in 4th ed, all bike type units were standardised.
Of course there is. Necron jetbikes are *jetbikes* Thats enough to make them scream over the battlefield at turbo boost speed. You think a race with ships that make eldar vessels look like tricycles in a flat out race can't just gun it?

iantheace
16-08-2007, 17:41
The new changes seem a bit overpowered to be honest

Kelvan
16-08-2007, 18:25
What a new changes? Nobody say nothing about Necron update, there wasn't single word about it on Games Days... I dunno why are guys keeping this topic alive. It's full of rumors from nowhere. On dakka people realized that someone found old topic from WARSEER and wrote that are new rumours, and someone took this old warseer rumours from dakka here and you are talking now about it...

Only things we know now from Gamesday L.A. are:

Q - Any single word about Necrons?
A - Unfortunately, Phil said that there just wasn't anything in the pipeline yet.
A - Necrons are not on the radar anytime soon, dont expect them in '08.

For me - end of topic here...

Cheers.

mike0fthedead kk
16-08-2007, 18:41
to make all the necron players feel that the soul of the army is gone just call fnp wwb just done different no big deal guys it still represents the hand running round for the leg and fixing himself

thewizard99
16-08-2007, 20:43
hehehehe i can so see that hand hand chasing the foot thing lol.....MALFUNFION!!!!!

but one thing, IF they get rid of WBB, give them FNP, SAP, witha +1 T, then they seem meety, but there loosing a great rules which was made for them, take that away and you have damn robots, not necrons, constantly living necrons, that rise form the growd as one falls.

if they keep WBB, but make it some what easyer like on a 3+, then thats fine, the +1t is great, and SAP as well would make them hard, but on the other than simple.

Mike3791
17-08-2007, 02:02
I always wondered why the inquisition assasain got a necron weapon (ctan phase sword) that the necrons themselves never got :wtf:

big squig
17-08-2007, 03:26
hehehehe i can so see that hand hand chasing the foot thing lol.....MALFUNFION!!!!!

but one thing, IF they get rid of WBB, give them FNP, SAP, witha +1 T, then they seem meety, but there loosing a great rules which was made for them, take that away and you have damn robots, not necrons, constantly living necrons, that rise form the growd as one falls.

if they keep WBB, but make it some what easyer like on a 3+, then thats fine, the +1t is great, and SAP as well would make them hard, but on the other than simple.

On a 3+! Dude, the problem with WBB is not that it's too weak. It's that it's overly complicated and is easily replaced by a universal rule.

Even with FNP necrons could still get up if GW makes some units or wargear with resurrection abilities...I mean, they would have to re figure the monloith and tomb spider anyways.

Kirasu
17-08-2007, 05:02
Lets get one thing straight.. WBB was not made for necrons, it was a rip off the Terminator series. That is the major flaw with the "Expansion teams" (Tau, Necron, Dark eldar and all the armies that came in during the end of 2nd or were new in 3rd).. GW picked a movie gimmick and made an ENTIRE army around *one* idea, where as all of the original armies have DEPTH to their army lists

I much rather them remove all of the dumb terminator referrences and fully transform them into "Some ancient race of people who were tricked into become souless robots for the c'tan".. That is cool. "I'll be back" is NOT cool

In other news, its amusing to see how many necrons players cant even remember that REZ ORB and WBB are totally seperate lol, the rez orb allows WBB to be better than FNP when in reality they're the exact same rule (as others have said)

As for the comment about "ignoring excessive wounds".. No, because if I kill the entire squad then I get victory points for them even if they return attached to a new squad... 40k is won by Vps and objectives, handing your opponent 300pts is not very good tactically and thus FNP is better

Sithlord
17-08-2007, 11:46
let's clarify on new necron rules :
SaP on necrons : great rumour but..... flayed ones???

FnP replace WBB : definitely what rumour would be

Rez Orb let FnP nullify instant death and power weapon : more possible rumour

Tomb Spyder let you re-roll FnP : just speculation

loveless
17-08-2007, 13:40
So more like DOW please! slow and unstoppable (till my marine power weapon the head off them! :D

...Did you PLAY DoW?

The Warriors, Immortals, Flayed Ones, and Monolith are slow.

Everything else is ridiculously speedy, including the DoW Scarab Swarms that the Tomb Spyders produce.

If for whatever reason GW decided to make them more DoW-like, you are NOT going to be seeing the fast Necron units getting any slower.

Jammybee
17-08-2007, 14:04
If these are indeed true, necron players can just lie down their guys that passed the FNP save.

Hellebore
17-08-2007, 14:27
Lets get one thing straight.. WBB was not made for necrons, it was a rip off the Terminator series. That is the major flaw with the "Expansion teams" (Tau, Necron, Dark eldar and all the armies that came in during the end of 2nd or were new in 3rd).. GW picked a movie gimmick and made an ENTIRE army around *one* idea, where as all of the original armies have DEPTH to their army lists

I much rather them remove all of the dumb terminator referrences and fully transform them into "Some ancient race of people who were tricked into become souless robots for the c'tan".. That is cool. "I'll be back" is NOT cool



I agree, except that during 2nd ed the Necrons didn't have a WBB roll afaik.

So the over terminator reference wasn't always there.

Hellebore

Smokedog
17-08-2007, 14:37
Ahh necrons, they got realease in secnd ed, just as I was making a robot themed army (with AV instead of toughness)

Damn you gw!!!

I has them at Av 10 though...

As has been stated umptten times before, these rumours are completely fabricated, why isn't this thread closed? :D

phonchoman
17-08-2007, 17:53
hmmm AV,,, interesting idea... moving artillery (penetrating hit is a kill) not a terrible idea....

anyway, whether this thread is a rehash of an old thread or not, its more than likely that GW people are looking at it, and that is a good thing (theyve admitted as much in the past) so im sure they will be watching what people say. Ive seen some great ideas for armies over the past few months and im happy with all the new codecies (eldar, tau, blood angels, dark angels etc... and the new chaos one sounds great to me) theres little things to fix and FAQ but people have to get past what they use now and get on with it.

I mean a new Ron codex would be great, so what if you have to change your list , the over all game of 40k is getting better ,i really believe that because Im playing more now in the last 12months than ever before (13 years now!) the game is more fun for both players.

The necrons are hated (and rightly so) in our club because of a dairy like list, they are the fastest hardest army in the game (over all) and its got to a stage were no one wants to face liths and super uber fast units which easily kill land raiders etc...

Ill put it to you like this: In break out (battle mission i believe) the entire necron army can leave the table on turn one... they start first and can just turboboost their army out of there, sure they might be short a few warrior units, but its just silly. I know because its happened against me... spending 30mins doing a list and getting at he table ready, only for the game to be over in 5. Thats as good a reason for any army to be fixed.

My point is. 40k is fun ,or at least its supposed to be, new ron codex should develop on that, also i like the idea of getting more into a race trapped as slave machines... thats cool