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Lornak Bloodgreed
08-08-2007, 20:55
Will you still use your old dex? I know I am, too much goodness in the 3rd edition to pass up... I guess I will have to do some page ripping and glueing to make a codex that is actually decently correct :D.

unheilig
08-08-2007, 21:21
no offense, but that is the lamest of the lame.

muskrat
08-08-2007, 22:02
I'm with cassius. I play using Alpha Legion rulkes- rules NO ONE ever complained about, no calls of cheese, nothing. just balance and goodness.

Now half my army is invalidated and I'm not chopping up my HQ's to fit with this new streamline crap without wargear or gifts.

I'll be using my third edition dex as much as my opponent will let me.

Keichi246
08-08-2007, 22:04
Nope.

The rules is the rules. My Death Guard buddy will have to suffer losing his free aspiring champions and nurglings, and gaining access to raptors, obliterators, Nurgle marked bikers, etc. He is terribly heartbroken, I assure you - even if you can't tell by the grin on his face.

Me - my Iron Warriors list won't have 4 heavies but will have access to berserkers. Oh woe is me... *fake swoons*

Really. It's part of the hobby. Your army WILL change when a new codex comes out. It's an unwritten law. Everybody deals with it at some point.

Choices get upgraded. Options that are viewed as unbalanced (such as a good chunk of the legion lists, Chaos Lts, aspiring champions, Chaos lords that are nearly godlike, etc) get downgraded. Such is life.

Personally, both my regular opponent and I will use the new codex as soon as we can get it. We may occasionally go "man - i miss the days my infiltrating speed lord could kill everything he saw" - but in the long run, change is a good thing.

And I agree with unhellig - splicing together the codices to get your dream codex is kinda lame... It'd be like equipping Space Marines with Tau pulse rifles. They are two *different* codices.

Grimtuff
08-08-2007, 22:06
Will you still use your old dex? I know I am, too much goodness in the 3rd edition to pass up... I guess I will have to do some page ripping and glueing to make a codex that is actually decently correct :D.

Yeah, good luck trying to find opponents. :rolleyes:

grickherder
08-08-2007, 22:34
Really. It's part of the hobby. Your army WILL change when a new codex comes out. It's an unwritten law. Everybody deals with it at some point.

Exactly. And there are a few different ways to deal with it:

1) Change with the new codex.
2) Try to play with the old one as much as people will let you
3) Try to play with completely different rules
4) Quit playing and sell your models.

If you have a good gaming group, 2 and 3 are more of an option, but generally most people choose between 1 and 2.

Col.Gravis
08-08-2007, 22:38
Speaking personnly I've no problem with people using the older codex for armies which are'nt an exercise in strong cheese, but count's as is still perfectly acceptable and should be encouraged more so. Nurgling bases? Lesser Daemons. Wargear item/Weapon? Comparable Wargear item/Weapon. As long as whats what is explained there shouldnt be a problem in the *majority* of cases.

RampagingRavener
08-08-2007, 22:39
If you're expecting someone to let you play with an outdated codex, I hope you'd extend the same to someone who wanted to play a game of 4th Edition against your 3.5ed Chaos Codex with a 2nd Edition codex. It's the same principle, albeit things might not run as smoothly but I'm sure it could be worked out. And I know I'd love to drop down a 10-odd wound Screamer Killer or whatever the stats for it were if I bought a 2nd ed Tyranid Codex from Ebay.

Col.Gravis
08-08-2007, 22:42
Not really :-s The majority of 3rd Edition/3.5(4th) Edition army lists at least have common game mechanics in mind, 2nd Edition is utterly different and incompatible.

Randy
08-08-2007, 22:44
Can I use 2nd rules for my multi meltas then and run the rest of my army list with the 4th ed BA codex?

RampagingRavener
08-08-2007, 22:47
Why? Just transmit the 2nd edition profiles over and I'm sure it would work fine. WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A, and Ld all would serve the same role in 2nd edition as it would in 4th.

My point is that IMO it's rediculous to use an older codex just because you don't like the new one. You don't like the new codex? Adapt or move onto something else. I know personally I wouldn't allow someone to use the old rules after a new Codex has been out for a month or so. It's 4th edition, not 3rd edition, whether you like it or not.

EDIT: Just thought I'd add. I play Chaos, Emperors Children to be prescise, and yes there are some things about the new codex I'm not too pleased about. But there's plenty of things I do like about it though, and looking forward to getting it when it comes out.

Richter Kless
08-08-2007, 22:48
I am sorry but combining codices is just about the lamest idea ever.
Either use the 3rd or the 4th edition, not both.

And what happened to your imagination people? does GW have to do all the work for you? Why not use count as, or simply tell your opponent they count as this or that.

skott4991
08-08-2007, 22:53
I would let you use things like legion specific rules, like cultists for alpha legion or extra FoC slots, but you would have to use the stats and restrictions (or lack therefore of) of the new dex.

E.G, if you play a iron warriors army you could have a bassi and 4 HS slots, but obliterators would be heavy choises ect.

Col.Gravis
08-08-2007, 22:57
Why? Basic stats remaing the same but weapons, vehicles, psychic powers and indeed wargear work on an entirely different system and are thus incompatible. No need to be daft to try an prove a point.

And yeah it's wrong if your doing it just to take advantage of for example previous 'over powered' shall we say elements of a codex, but lets take say Lost and the Damned (which refer specifcly to certain Chaos Codex elements). If both players are agreeable theres absolutely nothing wrong with playing with 'old' lists.

muskrat
08-08-2007, 23:00
Aside from minor annoyances, I'be little problems with the chaos dex.

Outside of my 80 cultist models being useless now.

And frankly, I will use the new dex- but I'll be damned if I'm done using the Alpha Legion rules. Alpha Legion wasn't updated, there's no replacement rules for them. As such, I feel justified using the old rules for them (infiltrate, cultists) and simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.

grickherder
08-08-2007, 23:07
Outside of my 80 cultist models being useless now.


Welcome to the Games Workshop Hobby-- invalidating your purchases for over 10 years and counting!


And frankly, I will use the new dex- but I'll be damned if I'm done using the Alpha Legion rules. Alpha Legion wasn't updated, there's no replacement rules for them. As such, I feel justified using the old rules for them (infiltrate, cultists) and simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.

That's a fine way to go. I hope you find lots of reasonable opponents and not a raving mob of "latest only" cultists (who are invalid in the current list anyway :D ).

Hicks
08-08-2007, 23:09
I know I wouldn't play someone using the old codex. Every codex is being revamped to fit with the new core rules, if we can finally have every codex redone for the same core rules be biggest gripe with GW will be gone.

Sure that process means that all armies are being made to be of the same power level. Now how could this be bad? The old chaos codex was really heaven for cheezy power gamers, it needed to be toned down. The new one is nice and balanced and I'm sure that when the Daemon codex gets out Chaos as a whole will not have lost much.

grickherder
08-08-2007, 23:10
if we can finally have every codex redone for the same core rules be biggest gripe with GW will be gone..

Just in time to release a new edition!

Maynard
08-08-2007, 23:13
I'm with cassius. I play using Alpha Legion rulkes- rules NO ONE ever complained about, no calls of cheese, nothing. just balance and goodness.

Now half my army is invalidated and I'm not chopping up my HQ's to fit with this new streamline crap without wargear or gifts.

I'll be using my third edition dex as much as my opponent will let me.

What? Cultists were bent as hell!! They had infiltrate, furious charge, 2 CCWs and a sergeant who could have a power sword!!! And all for the same points as a Guardsman :rolleyes:


Exactly. And there are a few different ways to deal with it:

1) Change with the new codex.
2) Try to play with the old one as much as people will let you
3) Try to play with completely different rules
4) Quit playing and sell your models.

If you have a good gaming group, 2 and 3 are more of an option, but generally most people choose between 1 and 2.

How exactly is option two a way of dealing with it? If anything it sounds like withdrawal...

Grimtuff
08-08-2007, 23:13
Aside from minor annoyances, I'be little problems with the chaos dex.

Outside of my 80 cultist models being useless now.

And frankly, I will use the new dex- but I'll be damned if I'm done using the Alpha Legion rules. Alpha Legion wasn't updated, there's no replacement rules for them. As such, I feel justified using the old rules for them (infiltrate, cultists) and simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.


So the Daemon codex (or hell, the FW renegade Guard list, which you can take 3 CSM squads in as Elites) won't exist?

Those Cultists will only be unusable for a few months.

Katkiller 5
08-08-2007, 23:23
Sure that process means that all armies are being made to be of the same power level. Now how could this be bad? The old chaos codex was really heaven for cheezy power gamers, it needed to be toned down. The new one is nice and balanced and I'm sure that when the Daemon codex gets out Chaos as a whole will not have lost much.

Um, dude, the new codex has just as many options for cheese as the old one.. hell, they streamlined a few and added more in. Three monstrous creatures for dirt cheap? Mass-deepstriking with teleport homers? Demon weapon that causes instant-death? Force weapons in every squad? Feel no pain on troops!? A psyker power that lets you move everyone to fit neatly under blast templates? It is fairly ridiculous in many ways... i can already envision the cheese and power-lists that are going to come out of this.

W0lf
08-08-2007, 23:30
And frankly, I will use the new dex- but I'll be damned if I'm done using the Alpha Legion rules. Alpha Legion wasn't updated, there's no replacement rules for them. As such, I feel justified using the old rules for them (infiltrate, cultists) and simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.

so you will use the new codex but use Infiltrating cultists.. riiight.

'simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.' - wicked, so i suppose you dont mind me taking Falcons in my Beserker army?

senorcardgage
08-08-2007, 23:31
You know, believe it or not, the codex got changed for a reason. There is no way that I would let you use the old codex.

People do this EVERY time a new codex comes out (okay, not Tau empire). They say "I'm going to use the old codex, because the new one is garbage!" and then they realize that the new one is just fine, stop complaining, and get on with it.

If you had a list that nobody really complained about (i.e. Muskrat, although I think infiltrate for 1 pt is quite inexpensive) and you want to use the old codex, then I might look into it. Then again, the OP doesn't say that that is his reasoning, and gives me the impression that he just doesn't like how he can't use 9 oblits with 4 other HS choices now (for instance). IF that's the case, tough luck, you're using the new codex, or not using anything at all.

TRICorp
08-08-2007, 23:32
Another thing that was brought to my attention in another thread: Alpha Legions DOES NOT equal Infiltrate. The Alpha Legion are able to adapt and twist any battlefield situation into an advantage. They use what they are given and make the best out of the situation. Doesnt sound like youre playing Alpha Legion to me....

If you want to infiltrate go plat SM and take some traits. Now youve got nothing to whine about.

mistformsquirrel
08-08-2007, 23:33
If you had a list that nobody really complained about (i.e. Muskrat, although I think infiltrate for 1 pt is quite inexpensive) and you want to use the old codex, then I might look into it. Then again, the OP doesn't say that that is his reasoning, and gives me the impression that he just doesn't like how he can't use 9 oblits now (for instance). IF that's the case, tough luck, you're using the new codex, or not using anything at all.

Whilst I don't disagree with your reasoning >.> You may wish to change your analogy. You *can* use 9 Oblits now - in every Chaos army.

Of course they are less versatile and not as tough now, and I think a bit more expensive.

And they're in Heavy Support along with all the other heavy stuff, so they're competing for the same spots as Vindicators and other big guns.

Hicks
08-08-2007, 23:34
Um, dude, the new codex has just as many options for cheese as the old one.. hell, they streamlined a few and added more in. Three monstrous creatures for dirt cheap? Mass-deepstriking with teleport homers? Demon weapon that causes instant-death? Force weapons in every squad? Feel no pain on troops!? A psyker power that lets you move everyone to fit neatly under blast templates? It is fairly ridiculous in many ways... i can already envision the cheese and power-lists that are going to come out of this.


That is my opinion, I frankly believe that point for point the new "cheeze" isn't as bad as before. I feel that the codex was toned down because it as less customisation (something I felt that chaos had way too much). I have never been hoping for the codex to be nerfed down into suckage, I'm just happy with how it turned out.

grickherder
08-08-2007, 23:34
How exactly is option two a way of dealing with it? If anything it sounds like withdrawal...

It depends on one's opponents. Some people have really flexible gaming buddies and they might even play every weekend or something. It's certainly feasible that they might get in 45-50 games a year with the old codex. I've always been more interested in the collecting, converting and painting and only get 10-25 games a year. So which counts as withdrawal? It's simply playing the rules you want with the miniatures you want against the people you want.

senorcardgage
08-08-2007, 23:38
Whilst I don't disagree with your reasoning >.> You may wish to change your analogy. You *can* use 9 Oblits now - in every Chaos army.

Yeaaahh... That's right... thanks for pointing that out, post has been edited! :p

Hydian
08-08-2007, 23:38
Counts as...I don't think that means what you think it means.

What most of you actually mean is "proxying"

"Counts as" is when you use something to represent something else. But it has rules. Basically, everything must be as clear to the opponent as if you were not using replacements. The thing being used can't have rules and you can't use the same thing to represent multiple things. If you aren't following those rules, then you are proxying.

As an example...In my 1850 point EC force (ignoring the non power armored models) I have the following that would be proxied over if I wanted to use my models to make a Black Legion force:

8 Sonic Blasters that would be Sonic Blasters
2 Blastmasters that would be Blastmasters
2 Sonic Blasters that would be proxied as bolters
8 Blastmasters that would be proxied as some random combination of heavy weapons (just imagine that..."no, that one is the las cannon...THAT one is the heavy bolter...")

And they'd all look pretty much the same to my opponent. Now, that would obviously violate "counts as" because those weapons and models all have rules and they'd also be representing different things. So it would be proxying. It would also be completely unfair to ask someone to face that. Much fairer IMHO to use the current EC list (while there is a newer chaos codex, there is not an updated EC list so it is still the current one even if no longer officially legal.)

All of this talk about using count as is silly anyway as it overlooks the fact that the Slannesh units are unique and thus an EC army is unique. It's like telling someone that they should use the dark angel codex with their space wolves because they're the same thing anyway.

muskrat
08-08-2007, 23:39
Cultists were cheap, same price as guardsmen. but they also had pretty much the same statline. furious charge is useful for the first round of combat- but not many cultists survive that first round of combat. they were the bread and butter of AL lists.

And yeah, i do agree that 1 is inexpensive. but its not really the rules getting changed that made me mad, and made me try to find a work around. its really the fact that the models i have were invalidated under the current rules, and that im just trying to find a way to not have to basically toss them.

Also, for the choices grimtuff posted- so in order to use a unit that is a key point in my army, i have buy two books, one not coming out for months (which could make some ridiculous changes to them) or buy a forgeworld book and pay a ungodly fee for it. FW isn't cheap in the states, considering a pound is worth pretty much 2 American dollars.

though im not entirely pessimistic. codex cults could be one hell of a book, and and in a lot of entries to make a real AL force, with very little marines. what im hoping for, anyway.

Grimtuff
08-08-2007, 23:42
That is my opinion, I frankly believe that point for point the new "cheeze" isn't as bad as before.

I dunno, being able to get a turn 1 charge with Kharn and load of Zerks in a Land Raider thanks to a Slaanesh Sorcerer with Lash of Submission seems pretty nasty to me.

12" on, LR moves 12" disembark 2" (26")
Enemy is 12" on, moves average of 7" with LOS (19")

Distance between them is now 3" :eek:

loveless
08-08-2007, 23:47
Sorry, I wouldn't play you if you were using an old codex.

Even worse is the idea of "mixing and matching" the two codices into something you prefer

Hicks
08-08-2007, 23:51
I dunno, being able to get a turn 1 charge with Kharn and load of Zerks in a Land Raider thanks to a Slaanesh Sorcerer with Lash of Submission seems pretty nasty to me.

12" on, LR moves 12" disembark 2" (26")
Enemy is 12" on, moves average of 7" with LOS (19")

Distance between them is now 3" :eek:

That would indeed be very nasty and like I said I am happy that chaos still as some powerfull builds, but... it is still a bit of a one trick pony thing and a really expensive one at that.

And Kharn is a special character, I don't use them myself, but now at least you can't make a lord that will make him look like a whimp. He is good, but one should expect Kharn to be stronger than a normal lord.

Formarion
08-08-2007, 23:54
@Muskrat - You could pick up the WH codex and make a traitor force from your 80 cultists, or choose those doctrines that give you a laspistol/CCW for IG. Just a couple of ideas that, while not saving your AL list, will save you your 80 cultists from being completely useless.

If someone asked me to play them using the 3rd edition codex, I'd check to see what army they played. I had no problem against AL, infact they are the only ones I have never played, but I hated playing against Iron Warriors as every list was the same, same goes for EC. But after a month or so of the codex release, I'd say "get the codex man, time to move on.". We have all had to do it now, at some point or another, sadly it removes the usefulness of some units, but usually adds variety that was lacking...all in all it keeps playing with lumps of fancy plastic/metal and dice a little bit fresh.

Grimtuff
08-08-2007, 23:57
And Kharn is a special character, I don't use them myself, but now at least you can't make a lord that will make him look like a whimp. He is good, but one should expect Kharn to be stronger than a normal lord.

Well, you can do it with any lord. Kharn came to mind as we were discussing this (albeit tenuous Khorne/Slaanesh alliance) army earlier this week at my local store.

Master Bait
09-08-2007, 00:05
Outside of my 80 cultist models being useless now.

i thought there was some sort of ally rules in place where you could just use guardsmen stats to represent your cultists.

or beyond that, just use LATD

as for infiltrating rules for Alpha Legion - the whole concept was pretty damn cheese...

From Shadows
09-08-2007, 00:07
Will you still use your old dex? I know I am, too much goodness in the 3rd edition to pass up... I guess I will have to do some page ripping and glueing to make a codex that is actually decently correct :D.

That is fine if you want to use the "old"codex so can I use mine?
http://billnapier.nfshost.com/images/Harlequins.pdf

Baneboss
09-08-2007, 02:13
New codex is horrible because it lost all the fluff touch :/

scopedog91
09-08-2007, 02:22
Hmm, this whole codex thing is a real problem for you, I guess.
So play against someone with a third edition army, and a 3rd ed. rulebook, and everything will be fine.
Just don't bitch to us when the whole world is 4th, and you are not.
It is a hard fact of like.
Boycott new versions...just stop complaining to me about it.
GW releases new versions of both the codex and rulebook.
Cry to someone who cares...

Maynard
09-08-2007, 02:27
Cry to someone who cares...

but.... no one cares :cries:


:angel:

scopedog91
09-08-2007, 02:31
HAHAHAHAHA!
That is true, I must agree...

Ddraiglais
09-08-2007, 02:50
Hmm, this whole codex thing is a real problem for you, I guess.
So play against someone with a third edition army, and a 3rd ed. rulebook, and everything will be fine.
Just don't bitch to us when the whole world is 4th, and you are not.
It is a hard fact of like.
Boycott new versions...just stop complaining to me about it.
GW releases new versions of both the codex and rulebook.
Cry to someone who cares...

I have a better idea. Why don't you quit reading threads that you know will be bitching about it if it bothers you so much?

As for me, I wouldn't use the old dex. I won't use the new dex either, except for maybe stats and point values. I won't play another game of 40K until they fix this crap with a decent dex in a few years. Until then, I will play Apocalypse if it's as good as it looks. If it isn't, I will work on my painting skills or other hobbies.

jhon
09-08-2007, 02:58
have anyone do a 3.5ed vs 4ed chaos fight test ???

Katkiller 5
09-08-2007, 03:00
I think the biggest problem with the new chaos codex is that they took very specialized armies (all infiltrating CC, all sonic range) and made them all generic.

I mean.. it's easier for most of the undivided (excepting some Alpha players) to change because it simply moves some options around and removes a few. It hurts, but for unless you're an IW with a bassie, you generally won't lose too many units. DG, WE, and TS all get upgrades because they get more options instead of being limited like they used to be. Their statlines might have changed, but it's the same basic principle behind the units. However.. cultist heavy Alpha, heavy-support heavy Iron Warriors, Sonic-heavy EC all seem to have gotten screwed over pretty hard.. we didn't gain options, we lost them, in the case of the EC, we lost a lot of options..

If you're going to bitch at people for whining, at least make a decent argument, don't just bitch. Make suggestions or something..

muskrat
09-08-2007, 03:02
No offense to everyone who has said that they wouldn't play me if I used a unit from the old dex, but what does it matter, really?

Not whether or not I use it- whether or not you'd play me? I mean, like I said, I'd ask my opponent first, and if he flipped out and whined this much, I wouldn't play him on principal, cultists be damned...

The people I play against have no problem with it, and that's good enough for me. They understand how much time and money goes into eighty ******* converted models.

I'm not going to cry and not do it just cuz some guy(s) from halfway across the globe, at the farthest, and no one where near me at the closest said that it wouldn't be kosher.

Also, like he said- except for the AL, we didn't lose a few options- we lost everything that made us our army. Now we're just another damn vanilla list with different background.

zeep
09-08-2007, 03:11
I would have no problem with you mixing editions. Games are, after all, about fun.

Of course when I pull out my vortex grenades.... :D

Mott
09-08-2007, 03:21
i play latd so ill just take my chaos choices from the new dex, im sure no one would complain. And i cant see how itd make a difference using the older dex, its newer than current ork dex and people still use that, and the IG\necron codexes are showing their age too. But using 2nd edition rules ect, thats a much more drastic port.



"My imperial guard now contain commissar cadet squadrons!"


"WTF?"

Lornak Bloodgreed
09-08-2007, 03:34
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

Worsle
09-08-2007, 03:44
As it is not a new thing? Any one who says they are a veteran and does not know the risk of new codexs is not really a veteran. Units come and the go, if you are not ready for that risk you are in the wrong hobby. Even more so if you are using some thing that lacks a current model, if some thing was going to go cultists where not a surprise to be picked. That and IW players lost 1 model, I see a legitimate complaint about all the sonics and the cultists (not about infiltration) but really you loose one model and it is hell in a hand basket?

Occulto
09-08-2007, 03:46
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

Because a lot of us vets have been through this before and realise that getting outraged does nothingexcept cause stomach ulcers! :p

A lot of us vets have also seen options made illegal, only to have them reintroduced a few years later. Mounted daemonettes? In the codex, out of the codex, in the codex, out of the codex...

I've got some heavy weapons troops painted up in Nurgle colours. They used to be legal back in 2nd edition. Now I can use them again. So explain to me exactly why should I be outraged that a codex allows me to field models that were previously illegal? Hmmm? :eyebrows:

Bookwrak
09-08-2007, 03:47
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

Have they said that? How many models are completly unusable because there is no possible way to use them save in the no longer existant role? What about the possibility to use them in this upcoming Chaos release I keep hearing people mention?

Outlaw289
09-08-2007, 03:49
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

Actually they got 1 and a half editions out of their models and can still use them in friendly games and as 'counts as' models.

tuebor
09-08-2007, 03:57
buy a forgeworld book and pay a ungodly fee for it. FW isn't cheap in the states, considering a pound is worth pretty much 2 American dollars.

Much like how I needed to buy said book to use my Vanquisher, Exterminator or Griffon. Of course, 80 cultists is a larger investment in time and probably money, but it still invalidated large parts of my list.

Night Bearer
09-08-2007, 04:08
:wtf:

Even for an internet forum, the hostility and sarcasm directed towards the OP seems really unwarranted.

Is this how everyone who's not a fan of the latest rules gets treated here?

Frgt/10
09-08-2007, 05:14
muskrat, as an alpha legion player myself i can see where you're coming from regarding the new dex. While its true alpha legion got hit with the nerf stick more than other legions, i see this as no reason to complain.
The decision to remove the cultists was a balancing issue, and something that was probably warranted given the effectiveness of a unit that cost next to nothing. Although i have cultist models now that are invalid, i do think that GW will redo them in the future, possibly along with rules for other legions. If all else fails, use FW rules. And dont say anything about FW costing too much; i live in Australia so getting FW stuff here costs me an arm and a leg, with the pound being closer to 3 aus dollars rather than 2.


They understand how much time and money goes into eighty ******* converted models.

Fraeteris militia models ftw :skull:

sebster
09-08-2007, 06:01
If someone wanted to play me with an old codex army, I would ask to see his list, or at least have him describe it to me. If he wanted to play old AL that would be okay, unless he wanted to play the all infiltrating army, because I never liked games against that list, too much of the opening strategy of the game was entirely up to one player. If the AL player just wanted to be able to use his cultist models, like your are muskrat, then Iíd be fine with playing against the old list, or adding the cultists to the current army, in either their old format or as IG proxies.

In the same way Iíd be happy to play against someone who wanted to play a squat army heís modified for 4th ed., or a whole new army he just invented last night, as long as it looks like a fun game. On the other hand, Iíll say no to current, legal lists that produce really boring games, like the all landspeeder army or the 3 falcons of tedium.

Thatís the great thing about friendly games, the rules and current codices are as relevant as you want to make them. I think its important not to get too hung up on what is and isnít legal, and just focus on trying to play a fun game.

I like the new chaos codex, I look forward to games against it. I think a lot of the people complaining about the new codex are only seeing the game in terms of the power lists they were used to using, and I suspect I wouldnít be at all interested in playing you guys, new list or old. But people that played cool armies in the old list and canít play with those armies with the new codex without throwing out a pile of models, yeah, Iíll play you with the old codex, or something we make up, or in Monopoly, whatever.

Dokternik.
09-08-2007, 06:32
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

Well the same happened to people who played Saim Hann wild Rider hosts. Iyanden Ghost Warrior armies, Biel tan Aspect warrior armies. The smart thing is they intergrated the possibilty for MOST* of those units to be used. Much like new the Chaos Dex.

To say "im going to play third edition rules" is basically a slap in the face to your opponent, who is most likely going to follow the newest, most balanced rules. Why not throw some second edition Eldar falcon grav tank pop ups while were at it?

Listen im all for being annoyed too. But the game need balance. Chaos was in dire need of it.

I would never allow a person to play with old rules.

vipernyc
09-08-2007, 07:38
I don't see anything wrong with it if both players agree, but I think its pretty lame overall. I wouldn't want to play against someone who insisted on using rules that were updated/replaced, because if I'm expected to use the latest 4th edition rules, and my most up to date codex, then so should they.

If you're going to just pick and choose the rules you like to use anyway, then what do you need GW for at all? Just chuck the books, write your own game and play it however you like.

Blackwolf
09-08-2007, 08:12
[QUOTE=muskrat;1817191
And yeah, i do agree that 1 is inexpensive. but its not really the rules getting changed that made me mad, and made me try to find a work around. its really the fact that the models i have were invalidated under the current rules, and that im just trying to find a way to not have to basically toss them.
[/QUOTE]

You could always make them into a Gaurd army that has turned traitor.

BrainFireBob
09-08-2007, 08:28
:wtf:

Even for an internet forum, the hostility and sarcasm directed towards the OP seems really unwarranted.

Is this how everyone who's not a fan of the latest rules gets treated here?


Warseer's a pretty tolerant place. After two months of people being frankly emo and aggressively abusive just registering to throw dramatic fits about the new 'dex, tolerance has worn thin. Use the search function, go back to some of the older threads, such as the first three closed rumor threads. You'll be shocked at how tolerant Warseer members actually are for those who aren't fans- but tolerance for whinging just to whinge, after the Eldar and Dark Angel whinefests, followed by this Chaos splurge, has worn very thin.

Brother Gabriel
09-08-2007, 10:02
Since i use the C: DA i cant see why i should anybody allow to play against me with the old Chaos Codex.
If the chaos player then decides to not play at all, so be it. But actually in my play group there is only one chaos player and he always played BL so i guess he is fine with the new dex.

On the other hand i find it very sad that some poeple have their armies deleted with the new dex. But live goes on, as they say ^^ so i guess the players have to get on terms with it.

T_55
09-08-2007, 10:26
Warseer's a pretty tolerant place. After two months of people being frankly emo and aggressively abusive just registering to throw dramatic fits about the new 'dex, tolerance has worn thin. Use the search function, go back to some of the older threads, such as the first three closed rumor threads. You'll be shocked at how tolerant Warseer members actually are for those who aren't fans- but tolerance for whinging just to whinge, after the Eldar and Dark Angel whinefests, followed by this Chaos splurge, has worn very thin.

Quoted for truth.

I'm not particularly supportive of this idea, if you pals near you allow it then so be it, it'll most likely never bother the majority of us, but if your expecting to use an old codex willy-nilly whenever you have a game with some stranger, your in another league. Don't expect to even have this considered at official tournaments, it'll be a straight no, and it'd be the case with most people you don't know.

byteboy
09-08-2007, 10:42
I think it's pretty obvious people who want to play this way don't care about some tournament.

T_55
09-08-2007, 11:53
You saying that is a bit to generalist, and i can assure you, people do often feel like comparing themselves and getting throwing themselves in the challenges of tournaments.

byteboy
09-08-2007, 12:08
Well, lets see here.......as of the day the new book comes out, I am pretty sure the GT's will be using the new Chaos Marine ways of playing. If someone does find a tournament that allows Chaos players to utilize the older book, more power to them.

Other than that, there will be balance issues/arguements,etc if someone can play with an older book in a tournament. I mean, I don't have a crystal ball or anything, but yes, its pretty obvious no serious minded tournament player is going to play an older Edition book, when the rest of his/her competetion are playing current books.

When someone pays money to enter a tournament, I am pretty sure they will want others to play on the same level playing field,using current army books. If its in a fun, mom and pop store where its no charge, most likely people won't care.

T_55
09-08-2007, 14:16
Sorry, mis-interpreted your last post, you never specified with the the chaos army from your other post and it gave the impression that players, even if they want to go in with a different armies available to them, wouldn't ever care about entering a tournament because they play 'this way'.

crandall87
09-08-2007, 14:30
I have not read the new codex yet but it sounds like it seems very generic. There are rumours of a cult dex which might be better for Khorne, Nurgle armies etc. It does appear that this codex is mainly aimed towards undivided marine armies mainly. I have not read it so I don't know. I will be using the new codex but I will be starting an army from scratch so it wont be such a problem for me but it does sound like those with existing armies are screwed over a bit. Is anyone going to try playing with the last codex against someone using the new one? The outcome could be interesting.

Asmith
09-08-2007, 15:11
If I play at all I'll be using the old dex. I'm waiting to see if apocalypse turns out well. If so I'll use the old dex as it's better and scales better to larger battles. If apocalypse turns out poorly I probably won't play, and will hold out hope for the next version.

King Thurgun
09-08-2007, 19:11
This is something i've heard a lot of chaos players saying, wanting to use their old book, and i just don't understand it. Do eldar players want to use their 3rd ed book? Hell no (except maybe for black guardians. And Alaitoc ranger disruption chart). Dark Angels? I mean, they lost stubborn, but otherwise no. Chaos is literally the only army i've ever heard of in all my years of 40k playing where someone wanted to use old rules. Because old rules aren't updated, they have gaping holes in them and GW is fixing them.

As a BA player, i was really unhappy to find that my guys don't furious charge anymore, but really happy that i can take assault squads as troops, that Vet Assault marines are great and cost effective, and all kinds of other things. BA aren't broken anymore and its a happy thing. I had to change my list and my playstyle but the army is still fun in a different way.

So suck it up. Your rules are changing because they weren't good rules. How many Illegal chaos army lists have been posted on this website since the last codex? I'm willing to bet its a number only Tzeentch can count to. Khornes lost Choppas, but they got WS5. Nurgle GAINED Feel no Pain. Tzeentch is off the hook. The cult armies can still be emulated: Iron Warriors, you even got a vindicator! Word Bearers, use cultists as demon packs, say the invul is from them being crazed and out of control.

If you REALLY want to play 3rd edition, you can go against my 6 Dreadnought blood angels army, back where the rules were Dreads could shoot and assault different things in one turn. Heavy Flame one squad, 4 Str 10 attacks against another squad.

Trust me, change is good for you. After all change is Chaos!

Lornak Bloodgreed
10-08-2007, 00:44
wow, thanks Thur, your self richeous comment made me realize I am pathetic, good job, I am educated...

The reasons that I dont want to use the new dex are completly surrounded by the huge nerfing, I dont like it, I was never a supporter of nerfing, and looking at how completly insane the DoW video game has become, nerfing has very deep lows... I dont want to see this game get lower, I want to see this game progress, and picking out what they do wrong is only helping them, this is OUR game, for if we let the GW guys have 100% control, this game will go the way of the 10 year olds... completly influenced by the senior members...

Occulto
10-08-2007, 01:46
wow, thanks Thur, your self richeous comment made me realize I am pathetic, good job, I am educated...

The reasons that I dont want to use the new dex are completly surrounded by the huge nerfing, I dont like it, I was never a supporter of nerfing, and looking at how completly insane the DoW video game has become, nerfing has very deep lows... I dont want to see this game get lower, I want to see this game progress, and picking out what they do wrong is only helping them, this is OUR game, for if we let the GW guys have 100% control, this game will go the way of the 10 year olds... completly influenced by the senior members...

Seems like the current trend is for everyone to get "nerfed" doesn't it? Even the supposedly invincible mechanised Eldar army has its weaknesses (mostly escalation if people actually bothered to use it)

If everyone loses out, then essentially, all we're seeing is a resetting of the standard. Basically it's reverse codex creep.

Am I the only one to think that when options like Havocs are considered underpowered unless they take tank hunters, or when people feel they need to take infiltration on just about everything, or where a Chaos lord is considered weak unless he's carrying the obligatory spread of daemonic gifts, that there's something very wrong with this game? :eyebrows:

People have got too obsessed with the toys - mostly because they've become too readily available. Foot troops are just there to make sure a heavy weapon or unit champion doesn't get killed. Standard infantry weapons are deemed crap unless they've got some kind of special rule backing them up like bladestorm.

In short, the special options have ceased to be special because they're everywhere. You talk about progression - well this is one way to make the game progress. It's time to wean people off their special rule addiction - get people to take basic units.

grickherder
10-08-2007, 03:07
Occulto, i couldn't have said it better myself. Special abilities are not special when they're so common. It is funny that people think they need tank hunters to have a good havoc unit. Or that blood angels can't assault now that they lost furious charge.

Ironhand
10-08-2007, 04:22
There's an easy solution - play Apocalypse, where you can field Chaos Marines and Cultists/Traitor Guard/whatever together. It sounds like you already have a lot of figures, so you should be fine.

grickherder
10-08-2007, 08:06
The one effect that I am so hoping that Apocalypse will have is a general change in atmosphere to one more focused on fun than rules adherence and everything being "official."

I would so love it if there's a mass awakening when people play Apocalypse and go "why can't we do this in smaller games as well?" Some things will work, some won't, but I would love it if everyone chilled a whole lot and stopped worrying so much about "official" and "tournament legal" and started playing more scenario based games focused on fun.

bungeeboy
10-08-2007, 08:15
hmm, i'm just about to start collecting khorne, might use the new one... :confused:

brotherhostower
10-08-2007, 08:40
Honestly, if you want to play 3rd ed, that's fine, play 3rd ed, with other people who play 3rd ed, and their 3rd ed lists. Heck, chaos gets 2 basic codecies if you do it that way, since they're the only army to have actually gotten a 3.5 codex.

Someone earlier in the thread said Counts As is proxying? It's not. We're not talking about someone hauling out a "Mr. Carnifex" here. There have even been issues of white dwarf with entire articles showing "Counts As" armies and units.

For the AL player who wants to use infiltrate and cultists from the old codex in the new one... ask yourself, why? I'm an AL player too (and dark angels, and eldar, so trust me, i know what it's like to get slapped with the nerf bat repeatedly). Am I going to miss my all infiltrate army? For alittle while, yeah I will (I went all infiltrate because I didn't want to lug around any tanks for my AL, got enough of that for my Guard and DA). Am I going to miss my cultists? Sure, those little meat shields ate tau for breakfast, or served as a great fire magnet, but I've only got 20 of them (all conversions).

Now, you with 80 of them (and apocalypse huge games around the corner), could have your own chaos themed imperial guard army. 80 Chaos Guard is ALOT (that's easily 2 platoons of 35, plus 5 for your HQ, plus 5 extra to make "priests" or "commissars" or whatnot out of any extraneous agitators). Give them the Warrior Weapons doctrine, and light infantry, and they turn out VERY close to the same, and you still have 3 doctrines (2 if you take priests) you can use to kit them out however you like, for only 2-3 more points per grunt model (depending on whether or not you gave them MoCU).

In an Apoc game (where the sky's the limit for points), you could easily use your newly reformatted cultists alongside your Alpha Legion to divide and conquer your opponent.

damn, now i wish i had 60 more cultists lol...

AmKhaibitu
10-08-2007, 09:14
Well I only fairly recently (last year or so) began emperor's children.
I decided to go pre-heresy scheme and plenty of sonic weapons (was converting up an infiltrating doom-siren assault squad) as well as daemonettes to crack the hard targets.

What happens if I use the new dex for this. I lose out on a heap of sonic weapons, and a heap of my lesser daemons become essentially useless for the task which I'd purchased them.

Hmm, new dex will be a totally different army. If I want to field an undivided force other than IW, then sure it's cool for that and I might in time.

Even my IW lost out, I actually paid the points to gain servo arms, 2 marines in cost each. And I played by multiples of 3, so having to go from a 9 man to a 10 man squad purely to get the second special weapon I used to lug around in my assault squad is annoying as it's less fluffy.

I went for fluff themed armies, I didn't min-max, I didn't daemon bomb, I don't own a single obliterator nor basilisk nor vindicator.

So for those armies the new dex won't work with, I'm more than happy to keep using the current one.
I was even planning to buy a sonic dread set up soon.
If GW tells me I can't use the current dex, I'll inform them they've just lost any future sales from me and leave.
In time I might have a gaming table and thus be able to play again, but in the mean-time I'll continue with just painting for fun.

But realistically being allowed to use the current dex will mean GW get more sales from me as I order the sonic weapons and go for a sonic army of doom and purchase daemonettes and so on.

Playa
10-08-2007, 11:07
Hey,


I lose out on a heap of sonic weapons, and a heap of my lesser daemons become essentially useless for the task which I'd purchased them

Actually, all Lesser Daemons are to be essentially useless -
Daemon delivery systems will be more effective than Daemons themselves.

And sonics represent only the tip of a very large modelling quandary -
Let's suppose that most SCM conversions were meant to represent Wargear.
The expense and time devoted to countless conversion has been invalidated.


If I want to field an undivided force other than IW, then sure it's cool for that and I might in time

Hmmm . . . That's another prevalent CSM Dex complaint - we can't.
There are no Undivided Units any more. The Legions themselves are gone.
Sorry to have to be the one to tell you. Squats ate them, or something.

Every CSM army now has to fall somewhere between the old BL and Corsairs.
Effectively, very much like Ultramarines with the Crappy Wargear Trait . . .

Codex: Daemonica is vapourware with no reliable info on its content, afaik.
It may hold out a ray of hope to people inclined to baseless optimism.
But if Gav's in on it, the smart money's on another epic cluster like C:CSM.


I actually paid the points to gain servo arms

Ah, yes. My extensively converted Basilisk feels your pain . . .


having to go from a 9 man to a 10 man squad purely to get the second special weapon I used to lug around in my assault squad is annoying

And thousands of Cult players with Favoured Units now walk with a limp . . .


I didn't min-max, I didn't daemon bomb

Most didn't. But, that brings up another common complaint -
The cure's turning out worse than the disease.
(Meet the New Boss, same as the Old Boss):

Siren Prince is out, Lash Prince is in.
IWAFH is out, SCSMAFH is in (and will prove 9x as prevalent).
Daemon Bomb is out, but only by sacrificing every Daemonic Unit, etc.
These aren't improvements, just *differences*. It's sad, really.


So for those armies the new dex won't work with, I'm more than happy to keep using the current one

A nice theory which, unfortunately, doesn't work that way in the real world.
Some of the above posts are right in that there can be only one valid Dex.
A lot of new players won't remember many details of Units in the old Dex.
And a lot of players that do, will relish denying their use, "Jis scuz. Hur!".

Apocalypse offers hope: my AL Cultists and IW Bas may reincarnate as LatD.
Not sure what to do with the Chaplain and his Daemon Packs, though.
If I ever travel to Nottingham, I may think of something appropriate . . .


If GW tells me I can't use the current dex, I'll inform them they've just lost any future sales from me

A noble sentiment, but just a drop in the ocean, as it were.
The real issue with most of us is the sense of betrayal that we feel:

Many models that we bought in good faith are now void.
And made void for what reason?

In many cases, probably simple ignorance and indifference.
That's the real kicker; we weren't important enough to merit much effort.

I understand wanting to end perceived cheesiness in the 3rd ed Codex.
But there's nothing at all in the new book to justify the means employed.
It's a shambles.


Playa

BrainFireBob
10-08-2007, 11:13
*cough* You buy your models for use in game, but there's nowhere an infinite use clause. If you bought your models, and used them, you technically had your money's worth- the amount it cost vs. use being diluted everytime they hit the table *cough*

AmKhaibitu
10-08-2007, 13:22
Actually, all Lesser Daemons are to be essentially useless -
Daemon delivery systems will be more effective than Daemons themselves. Yes I know all about that, but I only owned daemonettes.



Hmmm . . . That's another prevalent CSM Dex complaint - we can't.
There are no Undivided Units any more. The Legions themselves are gone.
Sorry to have to be the one to tell you. Squats ate them, or something.
So you're telling me my silver with gold trim and black shoulderpad force no longer exists? I can still field my Iron Warriors just like I used to.
By an undivided force I meant with elements of the various gods, such as some thousand sons for anti-MEQ firepower, plaguemarines for soaking up, and berserkers for pure butchery. Very much undivided in that respect (perhaps even some noise-marines.)




Ah, yes. My extensively converted Basilisk feels your pain . . .

The thing is the servo arm wasn't really efficient on an aspiring champion, powerfist with mutation worked out better, but I still bought servo-arms.




And thousands of Cult players with Favoured Units now walk with a limp . . .

Except noisemarines, their weapon restriction's somewhat useful.



A nice theory which, unfortunately, doesn't work that way in the real world.
Some of the above posts are right in that there can be only one valid Dex.
A lot of new players won't remember many details of Units in the old Dex.
And a lot of players that do, will relish denying their use, "Jis scuz. Hur!".

See when I play versus people, I generally like using the more fringe lists, I ask them if they mind facing them and they generally say yes.
So I'll be using the list that fits the army.
If I want sonics all throughout my force I have to use the codex that supports it, which is the current dex.
This is very much a real world application.
I don't play in tournaments, I even have a small genestealer cult.



Apocalypse offers hope: my AL Cultists and IW Bas may reincarnate as LatD.
Not sure what to do with the Chaplain and his Daemon Packs, though.
If I ever travel to Nottingham, I may think of something appropriate . . .

Except according to a lot of player the LatD won't be legal anymore.
If you mean traitor guard that's an entirely different matter.




A noble sentiment, but just a drop in the ocean, as it were.

Actually standard GW retail stores need all the sales they can get, and I mean the specific GW stores. Any manager that lets their staff turn away potential sales isn't doing the right thing.
With their overheads, they can't afford to lose sales.

I'll quite simply take my purchases away from GW retail outlets and give them to the opposition, not a boycott but simply re-channeling my funds to the people who appreciate my money.

guillimansknight
10-08-2007, 14:00
while your codex will changes and you will have to deal with it they could have left certain things in the codex like furies just to make it less damaging ecomnomicly to some people.

change is good, but taking away TOO much for it isnt.

Lornak Bloodgreed
10-08-2007, 14:10
Traitor Guard FTW!!!

I plan to use a basilisk squad, a fellblade, a black tank company, a chaos vindicator squad, and a whole separate army of Traitor guard for my apocalypse chaos army just so I can chin up at the balancing/rules design team :D.

I did not hear any rules or rumoured rules for NOT using traitor guard armies, all you got to do is modify an imperial guard codex a little and there you go... Ogryns with possessed parts, guardsmen/ogryns with spikes and white pale skin, tanks with trophy racks picked from bits orders, baneblade covered in trophys, spikes, and carnage, maybe even mutated sentinels or sentinels that have the guy merged into the cockpit :D, Dark Commissars, Traitor Psykers even, then there's the corrupt priests, and maybe a daemonic general... the possibilities are as endless as the flow of guardsmen.

I wonder if Apocalypse will have rules for alpha level psykers, this is APOCALYPSE after all...

grickherder
10-08-2007, 18:51
In one respect, I am a fan of the new codex. It reminds people that not all Emperors Children are Noise Marines.

AmKhaibitu
10-08-2007, 18:58
Yes, Fabulous Bill isn't a Noise Marine, but that hasn't changed in the new dex ;)

Huw_Dawson
10-08-2007, 19:30
Hoooboy.

If Relictors are still "legal", why the HELL are other rules from Chapter Approved/Index Astartes for chaos now "banned"?

If someone gives me a WD with rules for a varient list of a codex, and that varient list is *100%* compatible with the new codex, then for all intents and purposes it is YOU, not the opponent, who is being a screwed up munchkin for not allowing it in a friendly game/pickup game.

If you gave me any rules out of the 3rd edition book though, I'd laugh in your face, as the fourth edition codex is intended to FULLY REPLACE that book. If your not obeying that simple rule, then you may as well go play chess with both sides having white pieces.

- Huw

MegaPope
10-08-2007, 19:56
Never was a cult player, never used many daemons, never really used many marks of chaos. Hell, I never even used the Legion rules for Word Bearers, even though my force is pure Word Bearer right down to the last vile-smelling censer and tarnished bronze bell.

The biggest annoyance for me is that everything gets broken down into two books - I find it irritating to have to lug an entire library around with me when I game, especially when it doesn't have to be that way.

I accept that when I play IG, the codex generally gets accompanied by IA1 (and now 5 as well if I want field guns) and one of the Inq books, depending on the battle size. But all of them are also totally stand-alone rulebooks, even the IA volumes if you're using the army lists in them. Using them together is a bonus you get from having access to them, not a necessity.

But Chaos really should be just the one book, since without one or other of the volumes, a vital facet of your army's background and character is missing. That's what put me off my last attempt to build a WFB Chaos force.

'Generic daemons' are almost certainly just a stop-gap (who really thinks they'll be any models made for them?) so you can 'counsaz' all your existing daemons, and will surely disappear faster than butter in a blast furnace once rules for the power-specific daemons reappear (and they will).

Armilthuan
10-08-2007, 20:10
Traitor Guard FTW!!!

I plan to use a basilisk squad, a fellblade, a black tank company, a chaos vindicator squad, and a whole separate army of Traitor guard for my apocalypse chaos army just so I can chin up at the balancing/rules design team .

I did not hear any rules or rumoured rules for NOT using traitor guard armies, all you got to do is modify an imperial guard codex a little and there you go... Ogryns with possessed parts, guardsmen/ogryns with spikes and white pale skin, tanks with trophy racks picked from bits orders, baneblade covered in trophys, spikes, and carnage, maybe even mutated sentinels or sentinels that have the guy merged into the cockpit , Dark Commissars, Traitor Psykers even, then there's the corrupt priests, and maybe a daemonic general... the possibilities are as endless as the flow of guardsmen.

I wonder if Apocalypse will have rules for alpha level psykers, this is APOCALYPSE after all...

Well there is someone on the right track, hehe...

But I have never heard of traitor commisars. That's why I don't play them...

Alpharius
11-08-2007, 00:22
I'm really not happy with how the Traitor Legions aren't all that well represented in the new Codex. Aside from Black Legion, of course...

But hey...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/kp13/jervis.jpg

JackBurton01
11-08-2007, 04:13
I don't see how the traitor legions aren't represented. The cult troops are core choices. take six units of beserkers if it makes you happy. You all act like you are the only people this has ever happened to, look at salamanders, ravenguard, white scars. They lost their war gear too doesn't make them any less fluffy on the table. If I was alpha i'd use the cultists as generic demons. Say they "infiltrated" to that position and then jumped out and assaulted at the opertune moment. As for losing the baskilk, I'm sorry it sucks, but it is only one model. I do have a question though since this codex focuses supposedly on traitors who turned after the Heresy where are the whirlwind and landspeeder options? I mean did they just leave them behind when they turned traitor? Bit odd

Bookwrak
11-08-2007, 04:28
They weren't able to bring enough with them that it'd be reasonable to make them accessible to all armies.

silashand
11-08-2007, 07:44
Yeah, good luck trying to find opponents. :rolleyes:

He wouldn't have any problems around where I'm at. Every chaos player I've met so far (around 9-10 if anyone cares) is staying with the old codex for the sole reason that they *want* to play legion specific armies. The new renegade focus is not what they want (myself included). Just remember, if you try telling your buddy he can't play using it, you better hope *you* have other opponents to play as well. If you don't, then you're both out of luck.

Cheers, Gary

cerealkiller195
11-08-2007, 07:51
the chaos codex just seems way too "generic" to me. as much as i hope i know that the ORK dex will follow the same route and thats a real tragedy.

silashand
11-08-2007, 07:55
I understand wanting to end perceived cheesiness in the 3rd ed Codex.
But there's nothing at all in the new book to justify the means employed.
It's a shambles.

IMO it's the worst book to come out in years. Not because of rules, it works fine, but because of the way they eviscerated the background of the legions to where it frankly doesn't exist anymore. Now that the book is out (for those who pre-ordered it anyway) and everything's confirmed, I am certain I will be sticking with the current codex for the foreseeable future. I have no interest in fielding them in tournaments and I have friends to play against so no harm, no foul.


There is no way that I would let you use the old codex.

No offense, but you don't *let* me do anything in this game. You are free to not play me, but if I want to play a certain way and I can find amicable opponents then *you* have nothing to say about it.

Cheers, Gary

Staurikosaurus
11-08-2007, 07:58
I was first with the OP in hating the new codex. I play Word Bearers and I lost my Dark Apostle and my god specific daemons. But hey, this is a game and I'm playing CHAOS. Things change. I have the new codex. I read it over. I feel that overall, the changes made have been good ones. The list feels more balanced, it's easier to read through and opponents will appreciate this. I've changed my list and I know that there is a good chance daemons will be back when the new book comes out. For the time being though I've put my daemons on the shelf, changed my list and I'll get to field units that would never have made it into my own list. I'm still playing Word Bearers, but in a different way.

Expand your horizons and experience a new type of playstyle for awhile. You never know, you might just enjoy yourself.

silashand
11-08-2007, 08:02
For the time being though I've put my daemons on the shelf, changed my list and I'll get to field units that would never have made it into my own list. I'm still playing Word Bearers, but in a different way.

I'm unwilling to do that with my Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons. Just me though and others are free to feel otherwise obviously.


Expand your horizons and experience a new type of playstyle for awhile. You never know, you might just enjoy yourself.

Never said the new book might not be enjoyable to play. However, I play for the background and I don't *like* the revised background focus on renegades. In that context the new book is unlikely to be fun for me to play at all. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

BDJV
11-08-2007, 08:53
The new codex looks a lot like the 2nd ed codex. I just wish 4th ed was closer in games terms to 2nd, then we'd have a heck of a codex on our hands.

Personally I like the freedom of the new codex. Special rules are nice but they are not the sole provider of any armies character. IMHO

silashand
11-08-2007, 09:54
Personally I like the freedom of the new codex.

I don't find it freedom at all. With everything they dropped it seems a lot more like pigeonholing everyone into a BL / Renegade list of one type or another.


Special rules are nice but they are not the sole provider of any armies character. IMHO

No, but giving everyone nothing but varying degrees of the same basic special rules makes for some very bland armies in my book. Eventually everyone will have rending, FNP, SAP, etc. in their army somewhere. Where exactly is the variety and "fun" in that?

Cheers, Gary

byteboy
11-08-2007, 10:02
I agree. I keep looking over peoples speculated new army lists and see the 2 Slaanesh Lash Princes common in so many lists now, along with at least 6-9 Obliterators. The lists look so bland/horrible and boring, I don't even waste time commenting on them.

So far I mainly see either Thousand Sons or PlagueMarines as the troops choice with a VERY small size for each squad. Pretty sad actually.

Finally, special rules do make the army. If that is not the case, then we would all be playing the same army,with the same units and the same rules. We may as well all play an overly expensive version of Chess.......

Penmarch'
11-08-2007, 10:50
GW should care because they are losing dozens of customers a day.
This new codex has nothing new to offer and invalidates quite a few armies that have been built up over years.

It's smooth I grant you that, and will probably fit in nicely with the universally streamlined 4th edition rules in a few years. For the time being however it's also next to useless and much more open to -unfluffy- abuse than the earlier one.

The main problem GW has, and mind you, I know and knew most of the people involved with this company since the early 80's, is that they still have an 80's mindset. Combined with a 21st century -stockholders- must- get- dividends attitude nowadays, which makes it even worse.

Come on guys , you now better than this. Listen to your customers.
By now you should have brought out at least half a dozen new models fully integrated into the new -not rehashed- rulessets, instead of doing the lazy thing and add or substract a few numbers here and there to make it smoother. Variety is not a cuss word and moreover something your paying customers want.

I know that designing asynchronous rulesets is much more difficult than the thingie your doing now, but that's what your clientele wants. Start giving it to them or face another financial disaster next time.

Just to give you an idea. I run a fairly big wargame club in Europe (150+ members) almost evenly divided between historical and Fantasy SF players.
WH40k accounts for at least some 25 members and nearly all said they weren't quite happy- heavily understated- with your latest work.

I know that in the end they WILL probably pick up that new codex but, again, you've missed a golden opportunity that would have surely translated into an almost immediate result.

The eighties are over. It's a fine balance now between producing what your customers want and making money. Fact is you'll never be able to do the latter if you forget about the former.

elfman
11-08-2007, 14:01
I would mind an opponent using the old chaos codex as is. But I wouldn't mind a friend adapting the new codex e.g for alpha legion buy infiltrate for a sensible cost (3pts per marine), as they stand at the moment cultists are too good for their base cost and they get very cheap weapon options but if they were upped in a cost and their weapon choices put more in line with other armies (they get melta bombs far too cheaply) then I wouldn't have a problem. Ofcourse would require tweaking a bit and playtesting.

redbaron998
11-08-2007, 14:48
I think the path will be to adapt some of the previous items and things that made the cult armies so independent into the new codex. For WE I put this toghther and it sounds about right:

SO the rumours are zerkers will be 21 points now (confirmed?) (thats 14 or 15points for a basic and you get FC, +1 A, and WS 5, and fearless, minus the Bolter. Ok not bad

For my idea you still have to buy the mark of Khorne, id call this rules chosen of Khorne or something.

So I think about and 7 points per model for Termies and Possessed. and 14 for Lords. For both they get WS 5 (7 for Lords, since rumours are 6) and FC.

So lets see the Juggernaut is already in the book so I say:
Axe of Khorne: 20 points is about right now days since a PW is now 15ish (according to DA)
Collar of Khorne: Like Kharns new anti pykers rule: 10 (lords only)
Rage of Khorne: as is, 15 or 20 points (Lords Only)
Feel No pain: to include or not to....I dunno, now days its kinda a nurgle thing (again Lords Only)
Tailisman of Burning Blood: I have an idea, gives Blood Frenzy movement as in 3rd: 10 points
I am gonna leave the Glaive and banner undone for now.

This would personally appease me for Homegrown for now, I can live without the axes, favoured number squads and such. They were cool but we will survive.

Doing little additions like this should be able to fillin the majority of the holes left in the codex, also like mentioned there is supposed to be some Cult army rules in the Daemons expansion whenever it comes :) theres still hope

theluc
15-08-2007, 06:25
I'm a vet in the hobby, and finally got a hold of the codex..what a disappointment. a codex just like that mega mistake back in 1996. bland and unfluffy with no character . was furious for all chaos players out there .. sure we gain.. but the losses are greater imho..like occultis had written models comes in and out of the codex edition after edition, that just a money making trick..GW is a business after all.

most of us play friendly games so i decided to do a re-write of the whole thing ( free time, lack of paint and minis ) i want it to be balanced and fun as well.

a bit less than half done already and i think its ok for now, got to tell is not that hard to place every legion or cult with a minimum of rules. the motto behind this is for players by players. finally i just want what everyone wants nice listing, cool building, fun painting , great gaming

those who like it, no problem with that
those who don't, just play with with 3rd ed
those who need new stuff use my home grown :P
and finally those that are never satisfied well write your own :)

its just a game, so just play as you see fit

regards to all

cailus
15-08-2007, 07:45
Seems like the current trend is for everyone to get "nerfed" doesn't it? Even the supposedly invincible mechanised Eldar army has its weaknesses (mostly escalation if people actually bothered to use it)

If everyone loses out, then essentially, all we're seeing is a resetting of the standard. Basically it's reverse codex creep.

Am I the only one to think that when options like Havocs are considered underpowered unless they take tank hunters, or when people feel they need to take infiltration on just about everything, or where a Chaos lord is considered weak unless he's carrying the obligatory spread of daemonic gifts, that there's something very wrong with this game? :eyebrows:

People have got too obsessed with the toys - mostly because they've become too readily available. Foot troops are just there to make sure a heavy weapon or unit champion doesn't get killed. Standard infantry weapons are deemed crap unless they've got some kind of special rule backing them up like bladestorm.

In short, the special options have ceased to be special because they're everywhere. You talk about progression - well this is one way to make the game progress. It's time to wean people off their special rule addiction - get people to take basic units.

I think this post sums up the situation very well.

The new rules not only refocus the game back towards basic troops they also make vehicles much harder (heavy weapons cost more and have lower availability) and reemphasise combined tactics.

They also tend to fit the background better (e.g. Combat Squads, Avatar etc).

Vineas
15-08-2007, 09:17
As has been so eloquently put in other threads Havocs with autocannons ARE useless without tank-hunter. I mean afterall, a S7 Ap4 weapon is just garbage these days :rolleyes:.

How has character been lost in the new 'dex? I don't see any of the legions LESS THAN they were in 3.5. People are throwing fits about being shoehorned into a certain army, how the hell was the old 'dex not shoehorning people? Seriously? "You can have all these fancy WE toys and gifts but your men suddenly forgot how to drive vehicles and shoot a heavy weapon so you can't use that beautifully painted squad you spent $50 for parts on because WE's havocs (heavy weapon specialists, hello?) forgot how to use the goddamn weapons they train with more than any other WE"

Chaos 4.0 haters tell us rational thinking people to get off our high horses and stop being apologists. I'll get off my high horse when you get off the goddamn golden throne floating high above my head that you expect me to climb up to and kneel on. You EC and AL players are no better than any other Cult legion player that lost models/units between codeciies so why should anyone who doesn't play an EC or AL or any of the other broken Legion lists from 3.5 feel sympathetic for you? Honestly.

Other Cult players had to deal with entire units going bye bye and obviously they grew a pair and dealt with it. Do the same.

grickherder
15-08-2007, 09:37
Other Cult players had to deal with entire units going bye bye and obviously they grew a pair and dealt with it. Do the same.

This is a good point. At one time, everyone could take cultists. Now it's down to no one. Guess GW doesn't want to sell cultist minis :D

Vineas
15-08-2007, 11:00
I was also refering to Juggernaught units, DG Havocs, WE Havocs but yeah that's the point I'm trying to convey. It's not just the EC and AL players who lost entire units so their complaints warrant no more sympathy than anybody else who has ever lost models.

L192837465
15-08-2007, 15:36
people who have lost stuff in their army: uhm... get over it? snap it off and start over if thats what it takes. i guarantee if you have sonic blasters they'll sell on Ebay for a fortune now.

if my oponent comes up to me and says "i'm using the 3.5th ed codex" i'm gonna look em right in the eye and laugh my ass off. seriously? wtf.

theres 4 simple words to make sure people dont do this dumb crap: "is it tournament legal?"

now, dont gimme that "my terminators have sonic blasters etc" ************. "counts as", artards. a sonic blaster on a terminator? combi bolter. blastmaster dev squad? rocket dev squad. seriously, use your imagination.

its perfectly tournament legal and if someone complains about WYSIWIG and they play Chaos, say "do you have bolters, bolt pistols, frag, and krak grenades modeled on each one of your 50 marines?"

seriously guys, i have sympathy lost your cheese factory free aspiring champions, rediculous bonuses, weapons that nullify good armour but leave crap armour fine, 2 wound marines and infiltrating speed lords.

lets take a look at what the factions have GAINED:

all:
heavy weapon teams
bikers
raptors
oblits
vindis
defilers

Khorn:
ws5 and furious charge for barely over 20 pts. amazing. plus both grenades.
deamon weapon +2d6 attacks.
any unit with banner has furious charge.

Slaanesh:
ap3 weaponry everywhere.
insta-kill deamon weapon
best psychic power in the game
initiative 5 anything

Nurgle:
blight grenades
deamon weapon that always wounds on a 4 or better
t5 anything

Tzeench:
ap3 bolters on every marine
amazing psychic power
4+ invulnerable save on every marine
assault d6 ap3 bolter deamon weapon
4+ invul save terminators (for the +1 to existing for banner)


come on. i don't mean this to be offensive in any way or flame baiting, but i'm so tired of hearing people complain about something that isn't going to majorly change. i promise you, it won't.

Col. Dash
15-08-2007, 16:23
Oooh great idea, use parts of the codexes I like and discard the rest since it is all GW stuff. WOOT! Here come Khorne Berserker termies with twin lightning claws and a 2+ save on 2 dice! Sweet, I love 2nd edition. Even sweeter since 4th doesnt have armor modifiers, who would have thought my biggest complaint about the lame 3rd and 4th rules would help me, I cant wait for the new codex. Gotta go dust off my lovingly converted termies now heheh

Ruroni
15-08-2007, 18:54
seriously guys, i have sympathy lost your cheese factory free aspiring champions, rediculous bonuses, weapons that nullify good armour but leave crap armour fine, 2 wound marines and infiltrating speed lords.

lets take a look at what the factions have GAINED:

all:
heavy weapon teams
bikers
raptors
oblits
vindis
defilers

Khorn:
ws5 and furious charge for barely over 20 pts. amazing. plus both grenades.
deamon weapon +2d6 attacks.
any unit with banner has furious charge.

Slaanesh:
ap3 weaponry everywhere.
insta-kill deamon weapon
best psychic power in the game
initiative 5 anything

Nurgle:
blight grenades
deamon weapon that always wounds on a 4 or better
t5 anything

Tzeench:
ap3 bolters on every marine
amazing psychic power
4+ invulnerable save on every marine
assault d6 ap3 bolter deamon weapon
4+ invul save terminators (for the +1 to existing for banner)


come on. i don't mean this to be offensive in any way or flame baiting, but i'm so tired of hearing people complain about something that isn't going to majorly change. i promise you, it won't.

= win

I posted this somewhere myself but the thread got locked.

Thoth62
15-08-2007, 19:13
I posted this somewhere myself but the thread got locked.

As this one probably should be too. It seems to have degenerated into people complaining about the new codex, and people complaining about people who are complaining about the new codex.

I seriously think that everybody here needs to grow up. It's extremely unlikely that you'll be changing each others minds about it.

NotElite
15-08-2007, 19:29
people who have lost stuff in their army: uhm... get over it? snap it off and start over if thats what it takes. i guarantee if you have sonic blasters they'll sell on Ebay for a fortune now.
A) Give us time
B) Selling a painstakingly and expensively collected collection is not a decent answer to this problem.


if my oponent comes up to me and says "i'm using the 3.5th ed codex" i'm gonna look em right in the eye and laugh my ass off. seriously? wtf.

theres 4 simple words to make sure people dont do this dumb crap: "is it tournament legal?"
Every hear of a friendly game? Apparently not... I understand the sentiment, but there are some armies that entirely don't exist anymore. It is like it isn't even the right Codex for them (e.g Word Bearers)


now, dont gimme that "my terminators have sonic blasters etc" ************. "counts as", artards. a sonic blaster on a terminator? combi bolter. blastmaster dev squad? rocket dev squad. seriously, use your imagination.

its perfectly tournament legal and if someone complains about WYSIWIG and they play Chaos, say "do you have bolters, bolt pistols, frag, and krak grenades modeled on each one of your 50 marines?"
You want to discuss if something is tourney-legal in one breath, and then break WYSIWYG in another...


seriously guys, i have sympathy lost your cheese factory free aspiring champions, rediculous bonuses, weapons that nullify good armour but leave crap armour fine, 2 wound marines and infiltrating speed lords.
This is the logical fallacy so many "stop whining" shouters use. It isn't only powergamers that lost here. You folks try to say that anyone who is opposed to the new Codex is a whiny powergamer. This is simply false.


lets take a look at what the factions have GAINED:
[snip]

Some valid points, some not so much. More on this later.
come on. i don't mean this to be offensive in any way or flame baiting, but i'm so tired of hearing people complain about something that isn't going to majorly change. [/quote]
You can't make references like "artards" and "whining" and expect it to be any other way. Just like you can't call your boss a bloody bastard in a respectful way...



i promise you, it won't.
Yes, there were nifty new things. But just about everything DID change. If this was a new Codex, with no prior history... say Codex: Renegades, rather than replacing Codex: Chaos, it would actually be a decent book. Not great, but decent. It IS better than Dark Angels. That monstrosity is still just rubbish. Hopefully next year's Codex: Demons, will manage to not suck, but I fear that it might not actually include Chaos Legions, but rather be a cultist book. If that happens, some of us bought an awful lot of models for an army that is dead.

If I was new to the game, I'd probably like this book. As it stands, not so much. Oh, and Lash Princes are the new Obliterators and Possessd Vindicators are the new Defiler (if you want to win, take them). Possessed are the new Ogryns. (if you want fluff over winning, take them) /sigh

grickherder
15-08-2007, 19:46
theres 4 simple words to make sure people dont do this dumb crap: "is it tournament legal?"

"Are we playing in a tournament?"

I'm not disagreeing with you that the new codex would be preferably to be used, but I don't care what's legal or not legal in a tournament when I'm not playing in one.

Here's something most people haven't considered:

Everything. Yes everything, is by opponent's permission only. Even legal codex armies. How so? Because if they don't want to play, you can't force them. Absolutely everything is allowed or not allowed solely on the merit of whether or not 2 people are willing to play that way or not.

Whether or not something is "tournament legal" has nothing to do with a non tournament game except to serve as a limitation on what you are willing to face in a non-tournament game.

Apocalypse will hopefully help fix such narrow attitudes with it's disposal of the FoC, a new VDR and allies rules. I'm definitely hoping that such flexibility will trickle into the regular 40k games and break the over emphasis on "official" and "tournament legal."

Another answer I might give to that question is "It's up to the tournament organizers and at the moment that's the two of us, and I say yes."

yankeeboy
15-08-2007, 20:14
I posted this over at DakkaDakka as well. Here's my two cents:

I agree with all of the points re: the blandness of the codex. It's disingenous to make claims (as some have) that the codex couldn't include legion specific options and remained balanced. It's no less a possibility than the concept of balancing codex vs codex, army vs army. There's no reason they could not have included a few more options that differentiate the chaos powers and balance them.

But this gets to my big gripe. I really dislike how very little of the rules actually reflect the established fluff. There is SCORES of fluff on chaos out there, and the new rules look like a pale imitation of that fluff.

Second, I have a real issue with the amount and focus of the fluff in this book. For many gamers, this codex may be the first time they are exposed to the chaos powers. It should have had more fluff overall. For many legion players that were not in the big five (Emeperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, 1000 Sons, Black legion), it would have been nice to see a little more recognition and throw them a bone. Even if they don't have specific rules, a showcase would be nice. A little half page with the color scheme and notable history. At least regular space marines got that. First founding legions/chapters deserve a little more love. Some fluff, maybe a few special rules (such as the traits for regular marines. Not great, but better than being completely ignored). For a great comparison, look at the amount of fluff, as well as the look and feel found within the fantasy chaos army books. It's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

That said, I really did like the additional fluff on renegade legions. it was a long time coming and it was good treatment. I just wanted it IN ADDITION to the traitor legions fluff, not in place of it.

I recently took another look at the Realms of Chaos books. Talk about a change in approach. You had two Realms of Chaos books, each around 300 pages long. That's 600 pages of books oozing with artwork, stories, background fluff, rules, army lists, etc. Back in the day, the rulebooks were also the fluff books. They were one and the same. Now you have to buy some Black library books to go along with your chaos codex to get your fix. And that just doesn't seem right. I'm not knocking Black Libary- I own more Fluff and art books than ANYONE I know. I just think more of that great background material deserves to be in the army book/codex. I also think that the rules for how units, models, army lists, and game mechanics work should reflect the fluff better. (Heck, I'd like to see armies of 10 Grey knight terminators that could take on a million critters- it would be cool, and fluffy).

It's offensive that GW has spent so much time creating a detailed world and then ignores its basic tenets in the army lists. Khorne Berzerkers should actually have Khornish chainaxes, that modify saves and kill people easier. It's been that way in the fluff and the rules since 1991, at the least. Night Lords should have access to more squads of Raptors than anyone else. It's what they do; they aren't just dark blue marines with the same access to raptors as everyone else. They just aren't. Death Guard should have True Grit. True Grit was originally invented for Death Guard, fo crying out loud! There are plenty of examples of this. They could have shown a little love for the founding traitor legions and given them a trait to reflect their differences. No need for TONS of special rules. But they don't even get a fluff section describing them; that's lame.

It's crazy to remove all association with specific daemon types from space marine armies. You could almost justify it for cultists- but not for the most elite and dedicated fighters that work for chaos. Adjust their point costs, change summoning (which they did), adjust some of the abilities. But don't make them all the same. It turns its back on 25 years of background material regarding daemons.

It's a shocking difference to look at the earlier fluff and the current codex. Worlds apart.

apaosha
15-08-2007, 20:45
Aside from minor annoyances, I'be little problems with the chaos dex.

Outside of my 80 cultist models being useless now.

And frankly, I will use the new dex- but I'll be damned if I'm done using the Alpha Legion rules. Alpha Legion wasn't updated, there's no replacement rules for them. As such, I feel justified using the old rules for them (infiltrate, cultists) and simply won't play anyone who feels that i'm trying to cheat.

I'm with you there - I play EC.

Well, I would be if I hadn't tired of the hobby a few months ago that is ..... :cool:

ETA: also, yankeeboy makes some very good points - as I've said before, this is not Codex: Chaos we're seeing, it's not even Codex:Chaos Space Marines;

It's Codex: Renegades.

Vineas
15-08-2007, 21:29
Actually yer wrong about khornate chainaxes being easier to kill since 2nd edition (1991). In 2nd ed ALL chain-weapons were superior over a regular cc weapon but they worked the same for all armies that took them. It wasn't until 3rd that suddenly chainaxes in the hands of a berserker chopped through a termie better than a SM commander wielding a chain-weapon....wtf?

The Song of Spears
15-08-2007, 21:43
Are Lost and the damned still available? The rules were in the Eye of Terror codex right? and the orks and eldar in that codex were officially deprecated, so are LatD still ok to use?

Is LatD usable at a GT? Are they a official army option?

Blackwolf
15-08-2007, 21:44
Every hear of a friendly game? Apparently not... I understand the sentiment, but there are some armies that entirely don't exist anymore. It is like it isn't even the right Codex for them (e.g Word Bearers)



Word bearers are not gone You can field an two min sized troop chioces of marines and as many daemons as you want now. They are just different than before.

Vineas
16-08-2007, 04:26
Word bearers are not gone You can field an two min sized troop chioces of marines and as many daemons as you want now. They are just different than before.

No, no, no and NO. Did you not get the brochure stating that apparently the legions don't exist anymore, at all, because there are no longer lame broken lists or 100's of redundant special rules.

Like man, you need to get with the times. If you don't have a broken army list then your army no longer exists. To hell with background, I want 15 different rules for my termies and I want 3 pages of wargear and squad champions who could slap any of the primarchs around OR MY ARMY ISN'T CHAOS!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Grimshawl
16-08-2007, 05:50
I would definitely let you use the old codex, heck mix the two together as long as we both agree the result isnt a cheesefest. I think all the invalidating of armies by GW is just heinous abuse of their customers. I'd throw down a game with a reasonable gamer trying to keep playing his army.

Voss
16-08-2007, 09:22
'Generic daemons' are almost certainly just a stop-gap (who really thinks they'll be any models made for them?) so you can 'counsaz' all your existing daemons, and will surely disappear faster than butter in a blast furnace once rules for the power-specific daemons reappear (and they will).

You're assuming that the full daemons in the Daemon Legion Codex will be allowed to replace the generic daemons. I doubt it. One, it makes for a mess, and two, these were (in theory) balanced for the CSM codex. Third it goes against the 'self-contained' army list idea. In much the same way that other space marines don't get 35 point rhinos just because the DA and BA have them, I suspect the generic daemons are here to stay.

Its interesting speculation, but its up there with assuming that the Traitor Legions or cultists will be in the Daemon Legion book. Within the realm of possiblity, but not even close to something anyone should assume.

dcikgyurt
16-08-2007, 11:30
No, no, no and NO. Did you not get the brochure stating that apparently the legions don't exist anymore, at all, because there are no longer lame broken lists or 100's of redundant special rules.

Like man, you need to get with the times. If you don't have a broken army list then your army no longer exists. To hell with background, I want 15 different rules for my termies and I want 3 pages of wargear and squad champions who could slap any of the primarchs around OR MY ARMY ISN'T CHAOS!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Yeah....

Surely the ranks between the various CSM entries in the codex are there to represent the difference in ability. Aspiring champions are not tooled up close combat monsters, that's what a lord represents. Lords are not daemonically enhanced uber killing machines, thats daemon princes.

The new codex represents the ranks in a chaos warband better than the current codex. There is still the option to upgrade both squad and independant characters, just within reason.

Neilza
16-08-2007, 12:15
Im gunna keep and still use the present codex its still a valid rule book for chaos.

Griffin
16-08-2007, 12:45
The new one rocks from what I hear - I can't wait to get mine - all snug next to my DA and Eldar one.

yankeeboy
16-08-2007, 14:39
Actually yer wrong about khornate chainaxes being easier to kill since 2nd edition (1991). In 2nd ed ALL chain-weapons were superior over a regular cc weapon but they worked the same for all armies that took them. It wasn't until 3rd that suddenly chainaxes in the hands of a berserker chopped through a termie better than a SM commander wielding a chain-weapon....wtf?

I never said 2nd edition. I was referring to the original Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness, where there are Khornate chain weapons that reduced armour saves. Look at page 82 of that book for an example. Khornate axes/swords reducing saves has been a part of the fluff since at least 1988 (corrected), with the release of that book, and continued ever since.

This is in contrast to the new Chaos Codex, wherein Khornate Baerzerkers have chainaxes in the fluff, but don't actually have access to them in the rules in any way.

EDIT Correction: My mistake, Realms of Chaos had an original release date was 1988, so the fluff on this steps back even a few more years than my original quote of 1991. Just makes the case even more. Now it's been 19 years of Khornate Chain weapons that reduced and affect enemy armour in the fluff and rules before the release of the current Chaos Codex.

BrainFireBob
16-08-2007, 19:04
My understanding is that *all* chain weapons had special abilities at the time, with Khorne ones being even *more* special. Chain weapons no longer have special bonuses, so I fail to see the relevency.

yankeeboy
16-08-2007, 19:13
The entire "chainaxe point" was one example (among many) of established chaos fluff that is no longer represented (rules-wise) with the release of the new Chaos Codex.

It wasn't about "all" chain weapons. Rather, that comment was Chaos specific, quoting how long Khornate weapons that have these qualities, both within the fluff and the rules.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2007, 19:16
I'm with cassius. I play using Alpha Legion rulkes- rules NO ONE ever complained about, no calls of cheese, nothing. just balance and goodness.

Now half my army is invalidated and I'm not chopping up my HQ's to fit with this new streamline crap without wargear or gifts.

I'll be using my third edition dex as much as my opponent will let me.

Right, just so everyone knows........

If you want to use your previous Codex edition, just let your opponent know. If he says yes, YAY! off you go. If he says no, tough titty, either use the new Codex, or find another opponent.

The good news is that I am reliably informed that there will be a third, yes, third Chaos Codex, focussing on Cults and that.

STOP LETTING GW TELL YOU WHAT IS AND ISN'T LEGAL. THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE ABOUT FUN, NOT RULES LAWYERING! STUFF THE TOURNY SCENE! PLAY AT HOME!

BrainFireBob
16-08-2007, 19:21
It's offensive that GW has spent so much time creating a detailed world and then ignores its basic tenets in the army lists. Khorne Berzerkers should actually have Khornish chainaxes, that modify saves and kill people easier. It's been that way in the fluff and the rules since 1991, at the least. Night Lords should have access to more squads of Raptors than anyone else. It's what they do; they aren't just dark blue marines with the same access to raptors as everyone else. They just aren't. Death Guard should have True Grit. True Grit was originally invented for Death Guard, fo crying out loud! There are plenty of examples of this. They could have shown a little love for the founding traitor legions and given them a trait to reflect their differences. No need for TONS of special rules. But they don't even get a fluff section describing them; that's lame.It's a shocking difference to look at the earlier fluff and the current codex. Worlds apart.

Disingenuous. You cannot compare Rogue Trader and 4th Edition and claim continuity. Chain weapons, from the end of 2nd until the 3.5 dex, had no special rules at all, even for Khornate marines. Therefore, they have *not* had nineteen years of rules with better chainaxes, nor did any allusion to their "superior" chain weapon appear for nearly a decade *I* was aware of prior to the 3.5 'dex in fluff. Ergo, they had it, *it disappeared,* it *briefly* returned, and now it's back to being gone.

True Grit was invented for Plague Marines, correct, as I recall. Them or the Space Wolves. In practice, they have True Grit- in fact, an improved form of True Grit- in the newest 'dex. So what if the Dev's didn't deign to name it True Grit for them? You, the player, can decide that your Death Guard don't have a bolter, close combat weapon, and a bolt pistol, but rather are using True Grit. Just because the Devs didn't call it that, doesn't mean you can't decide that's what it is.

Prior to the Index Astartes article, I am not aware of any fluff indicating that the Night Lords used more Raptors than anyone else. Even in said article, they did use more Raptors *because they used more Fast Attack, period.* Hence no restriction. That article, the 3.5 'dex. That's it. That does not mean they've always been that way forever and ever and ever. In fact, they only had "more" raptors because they didn't have a 1 squad limit. That doesn't indicate a huge increase in raptors, or even that they were ubiquitous in the legion, but rather that there was a statistically significant increase in their overall presense. Raptors are not, nor have they ever been, who the Night Lords *are*- terror tactics and sudden, rapid strikes are what the Night Lords are and have always been. Giving them more Raptors, or more Fast Attack, these are gimmicks that may be used to represent this- but they are neither the only such gimmicks that could nor are they necessarily the best gimmicks to do so.

Guess what? It's always been a shock since the start of 3rd to compare new vs. old fluff. Why do you think the oldsters when you started became so irritated at people's army selection and ignorance of the fluff? Yeah, now you know.

yankeeboy
16-08-2007, 19:56
I'm not claiming continuity of rules.

I was simply making a point that there is a lot of established fluff on chaos, some is 5 years old, some 10, some nearly 20. My main criticism of the new Chaos Book was that it doesn't feel like the older books and doesn't include enough fluff for me. Just in terms of visually style and fluff background, there's little comparison between the new Chaos Codex and the previous one, the current fantasy chaos army books, the realms of chaos books, or any of the black library material. The new book is sparce compared to these other chaos books.

My second criticism of the new Chaos Codex is that I would like to see the rules reflect the fluff of these armies. Regardless of when Khornate axes (as one minor example) have or have not had special rules bonuses given to them, there is a long established pattern of fluff that says they do have additional killing ability. With regard to the Night Lords, they may have only had reference to additional Raptors somewhat recently (and even then, we're looking at nearly ten years now), as well as the fluff that says they enslave furies a lot. That doesn't change the fact that this info has become part of the 40k world and background fluff.

Again, the distillation of my view is twofold.

1. I would like the new book to include more fluff. The Renegade stuff is great, by the way. I just want it "in addition to" traitor legions and the nature of the various chaos powers; similar to the fantasy books.
2. I like it when the rules reflect the fluff more. Hence, I like it when established armies get some recognition and some special rules. I also like it when this translates to different abilities, units, wargear for different army types.

I personally feel that people are way too obsessed with trying to play "perfectly" balanced games. I don't think such a thing is really completely possible. Besides, I would rather that each army and race has a lot of individual character and it's own weird/tough items. The last Chaos Codex needed some adjustment. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way and the new book is far too bland, both with in terms of rules and fluff.

apaosha
16-08-2007, 19:58
I think the problem most people have with this new book is that too much quality stuff is being cut out, for no good reason (daemons, anyone?) and replaced with crappy stuff that just doesn't compare.

I will miss seeing traitor legions, and daemons, and killer lords/dps .....

And I am not particularily trilled by their replacement; the Red Corsairs ....

What was needed was not the continuation of the old, unbalanced legion rules, but rather a new improved take on them. I see no reason why they could not have done this.

Like Apocalypse this is just a really ****** way for GW to force you to bulk-buy loads of new models; whose quality is all over the place ....

*spits*

BrainFireBob
16-08-2007, 20:01
You forget- with the new rules, they will write new fluff with these rules in mind. Each reflects the other in the GW world. Worldeater fluff written while they have great chainaxes will have great chainaxes in it. Does this mean the fluff was first, or the authors- for example, Graham McNeill, whose writing is filled with this kind of thing- make an effort to create fluff after the rules exist?

GW does a lot of the latter, I'm afraid. Meaning when rules change, the old fluff is not longer valid as a basis for what the rules *should* be.

EDIT: I suppose I could sum by noting that causality with respect to rules and fluff is emphatically not one-way. It's a two way street. Fluff will change since the rules changed.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2007, 20:02
Without good reason?

How about 'Codex Daemons' which I understand will be compatible with the current Chaos Codex.

But of course, wanting to give them their own Codex is as stupid a reason as stupid reasons can get......

yankeeboy
16-08-2007, 20:15
The fluff is fairly consistant in many ways over the years. It evolves, expands, alters a bit here and there, but overall it is remarkably consistant over twenty-plus years. Like I previously said, I own nearly every fluff, background, and artbook out there. It's actually my favorite part of the 40k gaming world.

The irony is that it's the rules that are inconsistant from era to era, as well as compared to the actual fluff.

My view is that the rules should reflect the fluff and back story, that they should derive from the 40k universe, rather than the other way around. It's the wealth of the 40k universe that makes the game unique- otherwise it's just another sci-fi mini game.

BrainFireBob
16-08-2007, 20:22
Well, as far as that goes, I tend to agree- however, there's playability to consider. I give you: Movie Marines. Marines like they are in the fluff. Yeah. Unplayable.

There's also scale to consider. We went over this when the Eldar dex came out. The unique formations- why would they show on 40K scale games? Epic scale, for certain- but 40K scale, is there really enough of a difference to justify special distinction?

After all, str 3 represents the "normal" range of human strength- from 90 lbs geeks to mini-Ogryn Catachans. Great as that variance is, it's not sufficient for a differential strength characteristic the way the game is setup.

apaosha
16-08-2007, 20:40
Without good reason?

How about 'Codex Daemons' which I understand will be compatible with the current Chaos Codex.

But of course, wanting to give them their own Codex is as stupid a reason as stupid reasons can get......

Yes; this is what I don't understand.

Chaos has 4 gods, 9 legions, an infinity of daemon varieties, cultists, mutants, traitor guard, Renegade marines and so on ....

Yet at the moment thay are going to divide it between renegades and daemons, by the look of things. Completely arbitrary - and lazy.

On the other hand you have loyalist marines, who have their own base codex and half a dozen sub-codexes for chapters; detailing really very minor variations - a totally pointless waste of resources ....

I feel descriminated against. [/whinge]

etancross
16-08-2007, 20:45
So let me get this straight, you guys are going to either blatantly cheat by using an out of date codex, or just out right admit you cant win, have no skill, and can’t be competitive with any kind of change so you have to resort to old rules to be on the same table as other players using current rules?

That’s lamer than lame and I would be SOOOO embarrassed to have to resort to this.

I play Chaos and I WILL be using the NEW codex.

Alpharius
16-08-2007, 21:23
Without good reason?

But of course, wanting to give them their own Codex is as stupid a reason as stupid reasons can get......

The "designer's notes" in the latest WD SEEMS to be hinting that this might not be the case after all.

I haven't got the exact quote in front of me, but the wording of it was enough to get me thinking that we might see a squad or two of "renegades" in the CODEX: DAEMONS list, but not full on integration like they have on the WFB side.

We might be something closer to what we have (had) in the old LaTD lists, or the Inquisition "adversary" lists.

That would not be good...

Vineas
16-08-2007, 22:00
I still find it ironic that whenever I post on these new Chaos threads stating that I lost stuff from 3 to 3.5 nobody ever agrees with me or shares my sympathy but I am supposed to sympathise with other posters who lost stuff .......I give up.

I keep forgetting that 3.5 Codex that wasn't fit to wipe my ass with is the end all/be all of Codeciies for Chaos and that anything that will come after it is not worth the paper it was written on.

I'm not what I consider an awesome gamer but I KNOW I can make the new 'dex win games (and no I don't intend to use the new "power build" that has already been dissected from the Codex), and no my oppenent is not a 6yo that can't even read the rulebook or Codex.

Col. Dash
16-08-2007, 22:23
Just a quick fluff note from someone who has been using NL from the beginning, we dont enslave furies, that would require some kind of affinity towards chaos. The NL really dont like chaos worshippers and certainly dont do it themselves enough to summon demons. I do remember reading somewhere relatively recently(since furies actually appeared) that furies themselves flock to the NL on their own.
That NLs have more raptors has never been stated, they are fast, cause fear and terror so they are natural units for them to use however. That they have more stems from that NL novel that came out a few years back and had lots and lots of raptors flying around at the end. Its been awhile since I read it but I am not sure if it said they were all raptors or just a dark cloud of winged forms which possibly could include furies.

Thoth62
16-08-2007, 22:27
So let me get this straight, you guys are going to either blatantly cheat by using an out of date codex, or just out right admit you cant win, have no skill, and canít be competitive with any kind of change so you have to resort to old rules to be on the same table as other players using current rules?

Thatís lamer than lame and I would be SOOOO embarrassed to have to resort to this.

I play Chaos and I WILL be using the NEW codex.

So let me get this straight. You are going to care at all about people who choose to use the old codex against people who choose to play against them. And you are going to have the nerve to call it cheating? Last I checked, cheating is defined as an act of lying, deception, fraud, or trickery, used to create an unfair advantage, in one's own interest, at the expense of others. Which means that if somenone wants to use the old codex, and their opponent doesn't have a problem with it, it's simply the same as it's always been. A game. No cheating involved. I also didn't realise that having a nostolgia for the older rules, or a dislike for the new ones indicated a lack of skill or competativeness.

What's lame is looking down at others for having a different viewpoint than yourself, and I would be embarrassed at resorting to that myself. Please think about what you're saying to see if it actually pertains to the discussion at hand before posting.

I play chaos and I will be using the new codex. But that doesn't change the fact that I will still respect the decision of those who decide not to.

dcikgyurt
16-08-2007, 22:54
Just a side note. Has anybody considered the fact that the new codex allows all legions to take 60 raptors in one force organisation chart? And that if you don't bother giving the units any upgrades, take two 5 man csm squads with no upgrades and a cheap dp with wings, it comes to just less than 1500 points? (which is the usual size for tournaments)

DP: £15
Ten CSM: £18
60 Raptors: £360

The look on your opponents face when he sees your army list: PRICELESS

For a cheesy DP of doom, use 3.5, for everything else there's 4th edition.

yankeeboy
17-08-2007, 00:51
When did I ever say I wouldn't use the new current codex? :confused: All of my points have been regarding fluff criticism of the new codex vs. all of the other chaos publications.

silashand
17-08-2007, 02:08
theres 4 simple words to make sure people dont do this dumb crap: "is it tournament legal?"

And there's four simple words that form the perfect response to that: "I don't play tournaments."

Cheers, Gary

Sons of Russ
17-08-2007, 02:10
Will you still use your old dex? I know I am, too much goodness in the 3rd edition to pass up... I guess I will have to do some page ripping and glueing to make a codex that is actually decently correct :D.

I guess you will have to find some people to play with that will let you.

Occulto
17-08-2007, 02:17
You're assuming that the full daemons in the Daemon Legion Codex will be allowed to replace the generic daemons. I doubt it. One, it makes for a mess, and two, these were (in theory) balanced for the CSM codex.

Hmm... spoken to any Chaos WHFB players lately? ;)

Two books work perfectly fine either as stand alones or together - and Beasts was released a fair while after Hordes.


Third it goes against the 'self-contained' army list idea. In much the same way that other space marines don't get 35 point rhinos just because the DA and BA have them, I suspect the generic daemons are here to stay.

No it doesn't.

You can play a complete CSM army using the Chaos Codex, just as you'll be able to play a complete Daemon list using the Daemon Codex. This is the same as WHFB. You don't need Hordes of Chaos to play a Beasts army and vice versa. Each book contains it's own complete legal list - everything right down to the Chaos lores of magic.

There is the completely voluntary option to mix if you so choose.

This is the same as Daemonhunters or Witchhunters. Both allow you to play a full army just using their codices (although some might argue that they "need" inducted units). Disregarding that, a GK player technically only needs DH and a SoB player only needs WH. There's no getting home with the book and finding out you've got to go back and buy another codex because the Landraider entry refers to the stats printed in the SM codex.

This is completely different to the previous codices like Armageddon, Craftworld or DA/BA where you needed a parent codex to play any legal army. That's what GW are steering away from: any possibility that someone will buy a book and find they've been sold half the package.


Its interesting speculation, but its up there with assuming that the Traitor Legions or cultists will be in the Daemon Legion book. Within the realm of possiblity, but not even close to something anyone should assume.

Hmmm... Mark Harrison from GW seems to think otherwise:


I talked to Mark Harrison (model creator guy) a bit about the Chaos codexes and he said that yes..the Daemon one is definitely coming next year and that the two would work together (IE stuff in one could be used with armies from the other - like Beasts of Chaos and regular Hordes of Chaos in Fantasy).

dcikgyurt
17-08-2007, 02:27
I'm sorry if people find this offensive, but I've had enough of all this "I'm going to keep using the old Codex."

If I'm playing and somebody tells me they're using the old codex (or asks me if they can us the old codex) then I'm going to refuse to play them, Just tonight I saw an EC army that had been built using the new codex and an set of models. I suggest that people learn to change and evolve with the game or stop playing it. To refuse to stay up to date with the rules is childish.

Oh, and from what I understand, if you use the Codex Daemons with Codex CSM you'll still be able to field generic daemons, even though they aren't going to be in Codex Daemons.

grickherder
17-08-2007, 02:36
To refuse to stay up to date with the rules is childish.

Not in of itself. Just because the rules change doesn't mean the game is better. Take Epic 40,000 for example. The fans totally rejected it. Many kept playing Space Marine/Adeptus Titanicus and the NetEpic project was born.

There's nothing childish about playing a game with rules you like.

TheOverlord
17-08-2007, 02:37
Do codex daemons include traitor guard? *fingers twists and hopes*

Hydian
17-08-2007, 05:40
If I'm playing and somebody tells me they're using the old codex (or asks me if they can us the old codex) then I'm going to refuse to play them, Just tonight I saw an EC army that had been built using the new codex and an set of models. I suggest that people learn to change and evolve with the game or stop playing it. To refuse to stay up to date with the rules is childish.

Refusing to play someone because they want to use rules for their army instead of using their models with some other army can be seen as childish as well. A new generic/renegade/black legion army list does not suddenly make an EC/1ksons/DG/AL/etc list no longer viable or balanced under the existing rules set. It isn't like someone is asking to use a second edition rulebook or something. The way I see it, there may be a new Chaos Codex, but there is no new list for the legions. If you want to play a legion, the old codex is where your list is at. It may not be tournament legal, but only a child is going to worry so much about what tournaments do when playing in a casual setting.

It is the same thing with them phasing out LaTD. Are you going to refuse to play those armies now as well? Did the list suddenly become broken or non-viable the other day or something?

Personally, I'll play against any list that isn't obviously broken. I'll even play against lists that are borderline. What the heck? There's a challenge involved and winning isn't the overall goal.

It's spiffy that someone went out and made a whole new army under the new rules and chose to call it EC. That doesn't make an existing EC army playable under the new rules. You can't adapt an existing EC list to the new rules. Sure, you can butcher the heck out of the counts as rules to make the models fit the new rules, but it wont be an EC army. If you don't understand why that is, then you aren't knowledgable enough to even bring up the suggestion. Try actually playing an EC list before claiming that the new rules can represent it.

People talk about all of the things that they refuse to allow, like alternate army lists, 25mm bases on terminators, things they claim are not intended in the rules etc. Yet these same people are more than happy to encourage others to violate the heck out of the counts as and WYSIWYG rules/conventions. Why? To help justify their view that since their army wasn't affected by the codex changes, nobody else should be complaining about the changes either.

If I had my EC list and someone refused to play me because it was no longer tournament legal, I'd either pull out another army or (more likely) find someone who doesn't have maturity issues to play against. The second option would clearly be for the best as I wouldn't want to make anyone cry.

I play games for fun. I play my EC lists because they are fun. If someone is going to get bent out of shape because the codex I'm using was replaced or phased out a week or two ago, then my avenues for fun are going to be limited to seeing how long it takes me to make them tweak. Against those types of people, it usually doesn't take long and isn't very challenging.

I wouldn't go into a tournament and expect anyone to let me run a list of any kind from the old codex. Likewise, I don't go into a casual environment expecting people to act like they're playing in the final round of the GT.

So do us all a favor and don't just refuse to play with people who do or don't do whatever stupid thing wounds your inner child. Go a step further and clearly identify yourself as an idiot so we don't bother wasting our time with you. Keep your binkey prominantly displayed or something.

Belisarius
17-08-2007, 05:43
doubtful on traitor guard. As for myself i am using the new chaos dex to line the bottom of birdcages and simply using the SM trait system and dex to do my Alpha legion with Scouts as highly trained cultist cells. If you want a traitor guard list your either going to have to use Imp guard codex or IA5 which is close but with a lot of colorful and characterful additions.

grickherder
17-08-2007, 06:12
I will play anyone and everyone, even with homemade lists as long as I can have a chat about the homemade codex beforehand. Old codex? Sure. Want to use the army lists from the back of the 3rd edition rulebook? Sure. Found a cool codex in the rules development forum? Let's give it a go. Want to ignore the Force Organization Chart and make the exact army you want? Let's try it!

Games are about fun, not demanding adherence to some idea of "official" or "tournament legal." The only thing that makes something valid in the game is if two people are willing to play it.

dcikgyurt
17-08-2007, 11:39
Refusing to play someone because they want to use rules for their army instead of using their models with some other army can be seen as childish as well. A new generic/renegade/black legion army list does not suddenly make an EC/1ksons/DG/AL/etc list no longer viable or balanced under the existing rules set. It isn't like someone is asking to use a second edition rulebook or something. The way I see it, there may be a new Chaos Codex, but there is no new list for the legions. If you want to play a legion, the old codex is where your list is at. It may not be tournament legal, but only a child is going to worry so much about what tournaments do when playing in a casual setting.

It is the same thing with them phasing out LaTD. Are you going to refuse to play those armies now as well? Did the list suddenly become broken or non-viable the other day or something?
w
Personally, I'll play against any list that isn't obviously broken. I'll even play against lists that are borderline. What the heck? There's a challenge involved and winning isn't the overall goal.

It's spiffy that someone went out and made a whole new army under the new rules and chose to call it EC. That doesn't make an existing EC army playable under the new rules. You can't adapt an existing EC list to the new rules. Sure, you can butcher the heck out of the counts as rules to make the models fit the new rules, but it wont be an EC army. If you don't understand why that is, then you aren't knowledgable enough to even bring up the suggestion. Try actually playing an EC list before claiming that the new rules can represent it.

People talk about all of the things that they refuse to allow, like alternate army lists, 25mm bases on terminators, things they claim are not intended in the rules etc. Yet these same people are more than happy to encourage others to violate the heck out of the counts as and WYSIWYG rules/conventions. Why? To help justify their view that since their army wasn't affected by the codex changes, nobody else should be complaining about the changes either.

If I had my EC list and someone refused to play me because it was no longer tournament legal, I'd either pull out another army or (more likely) find someone who doesn't have maturity issues to play against. The second option would clearly be for the best as I wouldn't want to make anyone cry.

I play games for fun. I play my EC lists because they are fun. If someone is going to get bent out of shape because the codex I'm using was replaced or phased out a week or two ago, then my avenues for fun are going to be limited to seeing how long it takes me to make them tweak. Against those types of people, it usually doesn't take long and isn't very challenging.

I wouldn't go into a tournament and expect anyone to let me run a list of any kind from the old codex. Likewise, I don't go into a casual environment expecting people to act like they're playing in the final round of the GT.

So do us all a favor and don't just refuse to play with people who do or don't do whatever stupid thing wounds your inner child. Go a step further and clearly identify yourself as an idiot so we don't bother wasting our time with you. Keep your binkey prominantly displayed or something.

Sorry for the rant, but you have this coming!

My unwillingness to play people who refuse to stay up to date is based on the fact that they are completely in the minority. It comes across to me they simply don't want to move with the times. With the exception of Alpha legion, who lost cultists, and abusive IW players that spent all their points on defilers and obilterators nobodies lists have changed that much. I've seen EC armies that have been converted over to the new codex, without having to use counts as, without having to break the model apart and rebuild it. Even the guy at our store who plays with alpha legion isn't worrying about the loss of his cultists, and our resident iron warriors player has actually decided to bring his models down from the display cabinet and start using them again. All I see, everytime I come to this site though is people complaining about the fact that their army is no longer legal and tha they are going to have to use 3.5 ed. There is no need. So what if your legion rules have been reduced to a paint scheme, that's all Black legion have ever been, that's all Red Corsairs have ever been, thats all home grown chapter/legions have ever been. Why should you get free aspiring champions and +1 to summoning roles just because you've decided to play a different legion. The favoured numbers/legion specific rules were abusive if you were anybody other than the cult legions. I play Black Legion for the simple reason that it is Horus' legion, so why should I have been penalised?!?

Use the current codex, or find somebody else to play. The excuses are starting to wear thin in light of what mature players have done with the new codex.

UncleCrazy
17-08-2007, 12:27
Look all, all I am saying is since all of you vets here who are loosing model, especially the IW and AL players, Y ARE YOU NOT OUTRAGED? GW allowed you to spend all that extra money, put in all that time just to come out and say, "sorry folks, HAHA, you just wasted 50$+ on stuff that you cant use now, HAHA!!!"...

You are asking all the Vets? All 2nd ed and before? We did lose out when 3rd ed came out. We lost big not like this little whining turds who are losing one or two options. WE used to have Choas Armor. Yeah we lost a lot more options than players are losing now. And that is why we are not yelling "It's not fair!!!!"

Here is the list for Zerkers:
35pts each
Squad: The squad consists of 5 to 19, and can buy an Aspiring Champion from the charactor section.
Weapons: Bolt pistol and Frag grenades
Armor: Chaos Armor (2+ save)
Wargear: bolt gun +3 pts, krak grenades +3pts.... Power Fists +10pts (yeah each mini could have a Power Fist)

Special Rules: Triple charge range!

And more....

Yeah we lost a lot going to 3rd ed. But you know what? They started bring blance to the game. By getting rid of all the extra junk, so you could have a fair game that did not turn in to a Cheese Fest. All the extra options just add cheese. Once we 2nd ed players got used to the idea of playing a game that did not have to call GW hot line ever 5 minutes to find out if someone wargear or special option could be used like that.

You know what the 3.5 ed of the Codex Chaos is just as bad as the 2nd ed one.

yankeeboy
17-08-2007, 18:54
So what if your legion rules have been reduced to a paint scheme, that's all Black legion have ever been, that's all Red Corsairs have ever been, thats all home grown chapter/legions have ever been. Why should you get free aspiring champions and +1 to summoning roles just because you've decided to play a different legion.

For the exact same reason that different armies have special and different rules. Before the latest releases, there were the following armies, each with unique rules to represent them:

Space Marines
Space Wolves
Space Wolves 13th company
Black Templar
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines (Black legion)
Emperor's Children
Death Guard
World Eaters
Thousand Sons
Night Lords
Iron Warriors
Word Bearers
Alpha Legion
Lost and the Damned
Tau
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Imperial Guard Armored Company
Orks
Ork Speed Freaks
Feral orks
Tyranids
Witchhunters & Sisters of Bttle
Daemonhunters
Eldar (generic)
Eldar: Iyaden
Eldar: Court of the Young King
Eldar: that pathfinder army (can't remember the exact name for those guys)
Eldar: that jet bike army (can't remember the exact name for those guys)
Eldar: Ulthwe craftworld

What's actually in print and available anymore?
Space Marines
Space Wolves: Technically out of print and unavailable for at least a year
Space Wolves 13th company (pdf only and on their way out)
Black Templar
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Chaos Space Marines (Black legion)
Lost and the Damned (pdf only and on their way out)
Tau
Necrons
Imperial Guard
Orks
Ork Speed Freaks (pdf only and on their way out)
Tyranids
Witchhunters & Sisters of Battle
Daemonhunters
Eldar

Suddenly the list is much smaller. Many people, like myself, like to see the fluff reflected in the rules and army lists. Personally, there should be more love given to all first founding marines, chaos and loyalist. There should also be a little more love given to Eldar craftworlds and varient Ork clans also. It's that background that makes the game great. It's not so hard to trhow a few special rules/exceptions to give an established army something unique that reflects its character.

BrainFireBob
17-08-2007, 19:04
Only true if you consider the Legion rules sufficiently distinct to merit being considered sublists. Many of us didn't.

The Craftworld lists barely did, and their primary special rules have been incorporated into the Eldar 'dex (except disruption).

Vineas
17-08-2007, 19:05
You are asking all the Vets? All 2nd ed and before? We did lose out when 3rd ed came out. We lost big not like this little whining turds who are losing one or two options. WE used to have Choas Armor. Yeah we lost a lot more options than players are losing now. And that is why we are not yelling "It's not fair!!!!"

Here is the list for Zerkers:
35pts each
Squad: The squad consists of 5 to 19, and can buy an Aspiring Champion from the charactor section.
Weapons: Bolt pistol and Frag grenades
Armor: Chaos Armor (2+ save)
Wargear: bolt gun +3 pts, krak grenades +3pts.... Power Fists +10pts (yeah each mini could have a Power Fist)

Special Rules: Triple charge range!

And more....

Yeah we lost a lot going to 3rd ed. But you know what? They started bring blance to the game. By getting rid of all the extra junk, so you could have a fair game that did not turn in to a Cheese Fest. All the extra options just add cheese. Once we 2nd ed players got used to the idea of playing a game that did not have to call GW hot line ever 5 minutes to find out if someone wargear or special option could be used like that.

You know what the 3.5 ed of the Codex Chaos is just as bad as the 2nd ed one.

Don't bother trying to convince people Uncle. I brought up the same exact thing in other threads about WE's losing Havocs and ENTIRE units of Juggernaughts from 3 to 3.5 but apparently your complaints only count if you are an EC player or an AL player.

BrainFireBob
17-08-2007, 19:13
No, only if you agree with the haters.

calicojack
17-08-2007, 19:21
apparently your complaints only count if you are an EC player or an AL player.

Or a Lost and the Damned player. The alteration of the Chaos Space Marines list is to the extent that it invalidates the LatD list; thus the LatD list is removed from "legal" status at GW stores rather than updated; thus most LatD armies [collections of models] cease being useful for games at GW stores. Prior to this, anyone refusing LatD as a list [in tournies etc] still allowed you the easy "counts as" fall-back to Alpha Legion [through Cultists]. The change in CSM also invalidates this use. And I'm not talking about the use of big, heavy tanks, or even Imperial Guard unit choices. Cultists/Traitors/Mutants, the core troops choice for both LatD and Alpha Legion, is now gone.

By comparison, remove "Space Marine" from the Space Marine list, and replace it with a new unit and model type. Remove "gaunt" from the Tyranid list. Remove "Boy" from the Ork list and replace the troops choices with "gretchin." That is a similar difficulty. That is the problem faced by LatD and most Alpha Legion players.

L192837465
17-08-2007, 19:31
Just a side note. Has anybody considered the fact that the new codex allows all legions to take 60 raptors in one force organisation chart? And that if you don't bother giving the units any upgrades, take two 5 man csm squads with no upgrades and a cheap dp with wings, it comes to just less than 1500 points? (which is the usual size for tournaments)

DP: £15
Ten CSM: £18
60 Raptors: £360

The look on your opponents face when he sees your army list: PRICELESS

For a cheesy DP of doom, use 3.5, for everything else there's 4th edition.

and even better when they all deepstirke to your banners! hahahahahaha classic. hey, with the remaining 500 points, take 2 units of 5 terminators! bam, insta gold.

its like a burger. the two marine squads are the buns, the DP is the lettuce, the raptors are the patty and the terminators are the sex. *cough* i mean, uhm, the bacon. yes, bacon. thats what i said.

\is there a difference between sex and bacon?
\\only that they effect different parts of your body.

Vineas
17-08-2007, 19:42
The point I and Uncle made is that those 3 armies are not the only ones to lose out from one edition to the next and I never saw any forum flooded with people whining as much as this one.

WE's got lobotomized big time from 2nd to 3.5 and yet funnily enough they are still WE's, not just marines toting banners.

WE's and DG saw it happen to them from 2nd to 3.5, now its coming full circle and EC's and all the other "niche" lists are having the same done to them. Marines will get it too in a year or so and I think when everything comes full circle Chaos will still reign supreme (as evidenced by the power gamers already dissecting the 'dex before 90% of the player base gets to actually see it).

Thoth62
17-08-2007, 19:43
and even better when they all deepstirke to your banners! hahahahahaha classic. hey, with the remaining 500 points, take 2 units of 5 terminators! bam, insta gold.

its like a burger. the two marine squads are the buns, the DP is the lettuce, the raptors are the patty and the terminators are the sex. *cough* i mean, uhm, the bacon. yes, bacon. thats what i said.

\is there a difference between sex and bacon?
\\only that they effect different parts of your body.

mmmm. Salty. :D

Blackwolf
17-08-2007, 19:55
Or a Lost and the Damned player. The alteration of the Chaos Space Marines list is to the extent that it invalidates the LatD list; thus the LatD list is removed from "legal" status at GW stores rather than updated; thus most LatD armies [collections of models] cease being useful for games at GW stores. Prior to this, anyone refusing LatD as a list [in tournies etc] still allowed you the easy "counts as" fall-back to Alpha Legion [through Cultists]. The change in CSM also invalidates this use. And I'm not talking about the use of big, heavy tanks, or even Imperial Guard unit choices. Cultists/Traitors/Mutants, the core troops choice for both LatD and Alpha Legion, is now gone.

By comparison, remove "Space Marine" from the Space Marine list, and replace it with a new unit and model type. Remove "gaunt" from the Tyranid list. Remove "Boy" from the Ork list and replace the troops choices with "gretchin." That is a similar difficulty. That is the problem faced by LatD and most Alpha Legion players.

What exact list/models are you talking about? Mabey we can help you figure out rules that can be used to represent it.

Belisarius
18-08-2007, 00:49
good freaking luck with Latd a list that allowed the most versatility and creativity when it came to modeling (Dave Taylor's Adptus mechanicus army used that rule set) As for all those people jumping on the thread apologizing and excusing the new codex and calling those who hate it whiners did any of you by chance happen to read the topic title?:wtf:
Personally i am going to end up using the loyalist codex rules for my AL and having scouts as AL "Agents, cultists, or aspirants" as the new chaos dex sucked so badly. However on the bright side I can now have a dark adeptus tech marine and I think that will be a fun conversion. As for what is to be done for LatD I don't know what to say other than i am really sorry to see that list go. Most of the LatD armies I saw at tournaments were amazing to look at and were very balanced and fluffy. plain triator guard can still be done using the traitor dex but the hordes of mindless mutants wither the bloodthirsty type or the zombie horde will be sorely missed.
For the EC you have my pity on the sonic weapons loss but since your slanesh hopefully the new daemon world book will help. By the By our regional gw director stated that the demon world book will be available fall next year so here is to hope.

BrainFireBob
18-08-2007, 00:51
Did any of the haters read any of the titles of the pro threads they crashed? Nope. It's how it rolls when there's controversy.

Blackwolf
18-08-2007, 02:11
good freaking luck with Latd a list that allowed the most versatility and creativity when it came to modeling (Dave Taylor's Adptus mechanicus army used that rule set) As for all those people jumping on the thread apologizing and excusing the new codex and calling those who hate it whiners did any of you by chance happen to read the topic title?:wtf:
Personally i am going to end up using the loyalist codex rules for my AL and having scouts as AL "Agents, cultists, or aspirants" as the new chaos dex sucked so badly. However on the bright side I can now have a dark adeptus tech marine and I think that will be a fun conversion. As for what is to be done for LatD I don't know what to say other than i am really sorry to see that list go. Most of the LatD armies I saw at tournaments were amazing to look at and were very balanced and fluffy. plain triator guard can still be done using the traitor dex but the hordes of mindless mutants wither the bloodthirsty type or the zombie horde will be sorely missed.
For the EC you have my pity on the sonic weapons loss but since your slanesh hopefully the new daemon world book will help. By the By our regional gw director stated that the demon world book will be available fall next year so here is to hope.

This is why I am asking people for specifics on their models so I can give them suggestions on what to do. I think with the combined knowledge of these forums we might be able to help some people out instead of just reading the complaints. Really there are only three choices. 1. Complain and do nothing about it. 2. Try to figure out a solution to each specific case. 3. Make your own rules/use out of date rules.

For anyone that wants to continue to use their models with current rules I will try to help them. #2 above

yankeeboy
18-08-2007, 02:28
Only true if you consider the Legion rules sufficiently distinct to merit being considered sublists. Many of us didn't.

The Craftworld lists barely did, and their primary special rules have been incorporated into the Eldar 'dex (except disruption).

Every single one of those armies had enough distiction to warrant their own special rules as an army. Having a generic codex isn't the same as a distinguishing specific armies.

theluc
22-08-2007, 22:29
well that codex is not as bad as it seem , im thinking of playing Emperor's Children, i think ill go for this list

2 Daemon prince with lash of submission

6 termies with nurgle icon

6 chosen with tzeentch icon

2 squads of 7 khorne berserkers

2 squads of 7 plague marines

1 squad of 7 thousand sons

1 squad of 10 chaos space marine with chaos glory icon

5 bikers with an icon of nurgle

12 raptors with the icon of khorne

1 spawn to be ridiculous of course

and 9 Oblies

yup really nice Emperor's Children army :P

Master Bait
22-08-2007, 22:43
well done on the power gaming list son

theluc
22-08-2007, 22:54
lol well that the codex isnt not ? LOL still cant believe that a codex LOL

even back in 1996 the chaos codex was not that bad compared to this one LOL .. great work GAV no no really !!!! LOL
oh back then doom rider and cypher was in .. darn those two got killed off by
who ???

i dunno how would look like a ravenwing of death guards LOL

or a deathwing of world eaters

look out !!! 2nd ED rhino walls are coming back !!!!

30 DS termies with 9 DS oblies dropping in same turn LOL

2 five men squad with the icon of nurgle just to ds those above

really feels like 2nd ed to me. its apocalypse on a small scale LOL guys dont buy the apoc book just but the chaos codex its the same LOL

Thoth62
23-08-2007, 01:23
lol (1) well that the codex isnt not ? LOL (2) still cant believe that a codex LOL (3)

even back in 1996 the chaos codex was not that bad compared to this one LOL (4) .. great work GAV no no really !!!! LOL (5)
oh back then doom rider and cypher was in .. darn those two got killed off by
who ???

i dunno how would look like a ravenwing of death guards LOL (6)

or a deathwing of world eaters

look out !!! 2nd ED rhino walls are coming back !!!!

30 DS termies with 9 DS oblies dropping in same turn LOL (7)

2 five men squad with the icon of nurgle just to ds those above

really feels like 2nd ed to me. its apocalypse on a small scale LOL (8) guys dont buy the apoc book just but the chaos codex its the same LOL (9)

lol much? Seriously, when you start to use it like punctuation, then we have a problem. ;)

That list you posted looks legal as far as I know, and I wouldn't have a problem playing it provided you don't call it an Emperor's Children list. You probably wouldn't make too many friends doing so. However, it looks horrendously expensive in terms of points.

Master Bait
23-08-2007, 01:40
dude's a regular lollercopter

theluc
23-08-2007, 01:47
yeah i know i'm not that good at writing, i usually write in french.. the list is just to show how silly that codex can be .. ok other codex can be silly too but never that much

is was meant to be the bad joke .. for those who supposedly like the new codex and thinks it goes forward, while in fact is a return to 2nd ED ... pointed that less troop more elites

if that codex makes it to tournaments, well i already see the BIG advertisement BUY CHAOS minis they are so POWERFUL !!!

its so ridiculous, i tell you that codex should sell next to mad magazine... its all a joke

theluc
23-08-2007, 01:52
oops i forgot the trade mark of doom, the end of you all


the master..............LOL


hahaha

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 01:52
To the people whining that their armies are "invalidated", exactly *how* are your models not fieldable?

My sense is that over 90% of the models will still be fieldable. The only difference is that you won't have your underpriced, overpowered bonus powergaming rules.

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 01:57
Or a Lost and the Damned player.
Cultists/Traitors/Mutants, the core troops choice for both LatD and Alpha Legion, is now gone.
I'm pretty sure your models are playable as Guardsmen with Doctrines and Inquisition Allies, or else as Inquisition with Inducted Guard.

theluc
23-08-2007, 02:13
well invalidated armies is that legion rules are gone, also for latd it is not invalidated yet with codex eye of terror it still usable but most chaos unit will go on a point hype

there is much problems with emperor children, iron warriors and word bearers
well best is to get to read the codex but you will find not much because most of the stuff is so simple that there is not alot of informations to get around of the real questions you are seeking

just use the eye of terror and wait till the new book comes out and pray it wont get worse than codex chaos space marines

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 02:24
Why don't you use the adversaries rules from Witch Hunters for your LatD lists or for cultists?

sebster
23-08-2007, 03:35
yup really nice Emperor's Children army :P

Iím going to declare my army a cult army then take elements from all over the codex, thereby proving a point that is almost zen in its lack of content.

Seriously, the hell? I could declare my army a nidzilla list and take nothing but gaunts and warriorsÖ so is the tyranid list broken?

theluc
23-08-2007, 04:18
hahaha well do as you wish if you are able to sell off your ideas and conceptions, no prob with that , you can also dip your minis and tell they are pro painted too or even take a titan and tell your opponent its has stayed in the warp too long and it has over grown....

bottom line, do as you wish

Thoth62
23-08-2007, 04:42
"Holy double post, Batman!"
"I don't know how to use the edit button, Robin!"

Seriously, I think some people aren't upset about the loss of LatD because they won't be able to use their models. I think they're upset because they won't be able to use the rules. And frankly, I don't blame them, they were a perfectly good (insofar as GW can make perfectly good rules) army with nice background and rules to match. I'd be pissed off too if I played that army. They don't collect chaos models to use an Imperial ruleset. They collect chaos models specifically because they aren't Imperial.

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 04:54
"Holy double post, Batman!"
"I don't know how to use the edit button, Robin!"

Seriously, I think some people aren't upset about the loss of LatD because they won't be able to use their models. I think they're upset because they won't be able to use the rules. And frankly, I don't blame them, they were a perfectly good (insofar as GW can make perfectly good rules) army with nice background and rules to match. I'd be pissed off too if I played that army. They don't collect chaos models to use an Imperial ruleset. They collect chaos models specifically because they aren't Imperial.

Well Mutants and Traitors are still usable as they're in the Witch Hunters adversaries list.

silashand
23-08-2007, 05:10
My unwillingness to play people who refuse to stay up to date is based on the fact that they are completely in the minority.

What exactly does being in the minority have to do with whether you will play a person or not?


It comes across to me they simply don't want to move with the times. With the exception of Alpha legion, who lost cultists, and abusive IW players that spent all their points on defilers and obilterators nobodies lists have changed that much.

Moving with the times is one thing. Playing with the only list that is available for your specific army is another. For the record, *ALL* the legions bar BL lost something in the new book. Most of them lost enough so that the entire feel of the army is now gone.


All I see, everytime I come to this site though is people complaining about the fact that their army is no longer legal and tha they are going to have to use 3.5 ed. There is no need.

Need? Why do I *need* to change to the new codex either if the current one works fine? For your information the existing Chaos Codex *is* workable under the current 4th edition ruleset. It even has an up-to-date FAQ and errata to make it so. Just because a new book comes out does not change that, nor does it make either one intrinsically better or worse than the other. This isn't like trying to use a 2nd edition codex under 4th after all.


So what if your legion rules have been reduced to a paint scheme, that's all Black legion have ever been, that's all Red Corsairs have ever been, thats all home grown chapter/legions have ever been.

Black Legion *are* the basic codex list, just like Ultramarines are the basic marine list. Your analogy doesn't work at all. Red Corsairs are nothing but BL wannabes. Home grown lists are what their builder makes them by virtue of the ruleset he/she chooses to use.


Why should you get free aspiring champions and +1 to summoning roles just because you've decided to play a different legion. The favoured numbers/legion specific rules were abusive if you were anybody other than the cult legions. I play Black Legion for the simple reason that it is Horus' legion, so why should I have been penalised?!?

Penalized? Hardly. The cult lists had numerous built-in restrictions, not least of which was being limited to power-specific daemons, marks, etc. If you think you were at some kind of disadvantage, try playing TS under the current codex. You really have no clue what you are talking about here.


Use the current codex, or find somebody else to play. The excuses are starting to wear thin in light of what mature players have done with the new codex.

I have found other players to play against. Those as small minded as yourself would be the ones looking for other opponents where I am at. Maturity is in what you can deal with, not what you snub your nose at. Linking maturity to whether someone likes what you like is petulant, self-righteous, and ignorant. Just because you think you somehow know how everyone should have fun doesn't mean you do, nor does it mean the designers know either.

One rant deserves another after all. I personally am sick of players like you trying to tell me I have to play your way because you are somehow in control of whether or not I can find games or not. I have news for you, if you refuse to play me and I find someone else to play then it's *you* who's looking for a game, not me.

Cheers, Gary

Thoth62
23-08-2007, 05:22
Amen to that Gary. While I have every intention of using the new codex, I give no less respect to those who choose not to. Well said, sir.

theluc
23-08-2007, 05:27
to Thoth62
amen to you to ... that open minded alright too bad you so far i would gladly play old dex vs new one with you as opponent prtty sure a couple of cool beers and great gaming is your style :)

Belisarius
23-08-2007, 06:15
What I am really curious about having hated the new dex and my entire gaming group hating it and the style they are going on nowdays is what long term aftershocks GW will suffer and how long until it is felt. It is my personal belief that apocalypse will increase sales in the short term but i fear for the company long term if they keep on this route. Afterall the new dex is hardly balanced and far more open to abuse but without any of the flavor to please the campaign style gamer.

theluc
23-08-2007, 06:20
you are totally right Belisarius short term it will work on long term they will have a loss. if the game ( starting off with the dark angels codex ) continue in this format, stock holders will get hell angry for sure

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 06:26
What I am really curious about having hated the new dex and my entire gaming group hating it and the style they are going on nowdays is what long term aftershocks GW will suffer and how long until it is felt. It is my personal belief that apocalypse will increase sales in the short term but i fear for the company long term if they keep on this route. Afterall the new dex is hardly balanced and far more open to abuse but without any of the flavor to please the campaign style gamer.

A minority is too small of a sample to get a true idea on whether the book is hated or not. Also, there's the other book Chaos coming out next year. Seems to me that you and your group are being shortsighted not GW, since you don't know for sure what GW's plans are for Chaos.

Vineas
23-08-2007, 07:12
theluc,

Since you can seem to predict the future what are Saturdays winning lottery numbers because I could really use the money? Oh and why not go ahead and post us a copy of the new Ork codex since your ability to see into the future means you already know what the designers are going to put into all those black/white and color pages. :rolleyes:

Flavor lost? So broken lists and abused rules and wargear that people never took ADDED flavor? What the hell happened to peoples imaginations in the last 12 years or so? An armies flavor is determined by the player, not by a set of rules. I'm sure there is lots of flavor in the fluff, even if it's recycled from 2nd and 3rd.

Siren Prince army was not FLAVORFUL, IWoD was not FLAVORFUL. 3/4ths of the rules in the 3.5 'dex were not flavorful because 3/4ths of the last dex was never used!

Boring and bland are all I hear about the new Chaos. How was Siren Prince army NOT bland? How was the WE' army that was led around by the nose NOT boring to play? The most sad and pathetic thing about the 3.5 'dex was that 1k sons and DG sounded fun, sounded like they had flavor but a very tiny, minute majority of people played them. Why? Oh yeah because apparently nobody could power game with those 2 armies :rolleyes:

People still say the same about DA and Eldar and you know what? Never have I ever had more fun in the last 6 years of 40k than when those 2 books hit the shelves. Deathwing are a blast to play and the last time Eldar were this fun was back in 2nd (admittedly broken as all hell in 2nd but still fun).

It's good to see the mods finally shutting down every new "i read the new dex" or "i saw the new dex at my store" threads. Enough already people. We understand you are better game developers than JJ and Gav and anyone else, it explains why a good majority of you "haters" probably still live at home, are under the age of 18 so don't even have any experience with real life, and probably had mommy and daddy buy you everything so now yer pissed because they told you to get a job if you want/need more models and yet funnily enough I don't see your rules in circulation competing with GW products.

Put up or shut up. If you can write better rules, more fun (and balanced codeciies) then have your mom and dad, aunts and uncles, whoever put up the money to get your stuff into circulation and we'll see if your stuff is any better than GW's. If I deem it to be better than what GW can do then I will gladly give you my money.

I'll say this again. ALL (you know, EVERY army ever produced for 40k since 2nd edition) has lost something. Your e-peens are still intact I assure you, you are no less a man/woman/boy or girl just because you are now dealing with what others have had to deal with. Get over it, move on. Squat players did and so did the players of EVERY (oh that all encompassing word again) army ever produced by GW. :rolleyes:

silashand
23-08-2007, 07:46
An armies flavor is determined by the player, not by a set of rules.

Yes and no. Rules provide uniqueness not available to other armies. Having all chaos armies use the same rules eliminates that uniqueness. The ability to *choose* to restrict yourself is irrelevant when as per your own examples players will *choose* to use the broken options over any others regardless what other options exist.


3/4ths of the rules in the 3.5 'dex were not flavorful because 3/4ths of the last dex was never used!

Depends where you played. In tournaments you are probably correct as they were the most effective. Where I played people tended to be more open about what they liked.


The most sad and pathetic thing about the 3.5 'dex was that 1k sons and DG sounded fun, sounded like they had flavor but a very tiny, minute majority of people played them. Why? Oh yeah because apparently nobody could power game with those 2 armies :rolleyes:

I have TS. The reason they were not played as often wasn't because they couldn't be powergamed as you put it, but because in general they were so unbalanced that it was difficult to have a good game with them. When you consistently will lose 3/4ths of your games simply because the rules suck (given average ability and opponents of equal skill) that leaves only the most dedicated to play them. Every army needs to be at least somewhat effective for players to want to use it.


People still say the same about DA and Eldar and you know what? Never have I ever had more fun in the last 6 years of 40k than when those 2 books hit the shelves. Deathwing are a blast to play and the last time Eldar were this fun was back in 2nd (admittedly broken as all hell in 2nd but still fun).

No offense, but the *worst* games I've had have been against the new DA. I despise that new tome with a passion.


it explains why a good majority of you "haters" probably still live at home, are under the age of 18 so don't even have any experience with real life, and probably had mommy and daddy buy you everything so now yer pissed because they told you to get a job if you want/need more models and yet funnily enough I don't see your rules in circulation competing with GW products.

Obviously people like you don't realize that because GW *owns* the rights to 40K and their systems that any competing product has to be significantly different from theirs as to not violate copyright. It's hard enough to get people to play *published* games, let alone home grown ones. This is nothing but a pitiful attempt at name-calling because you can't be bothered to construct a real argument. I have news for you: most of the people you call "haters" where I'm at have been in this hobby since it began. Some of us are probably old enough to be *your* mommy or daddy. Generalizing in such a manner doesn't help your argument. It only makes you look like an uninformed malcontent who wishes to bad mouth others. Well done, Sir... not.


Put up or shut up. If you can write better rules, more fun (and balanced codeciies) then have your mom and dad, aunts and uncles, whoever put up the money to get your stuff into circulation and we'll see if your stuff is any better than GW's. If I deem it to be better than what GW can do then I will gladly give you my money.

As I noted, we happen to *like* GW's systems in general. We just don't like certain specifics and due to copyright laws we are not allowed to rewrite them to our liking and then try to sell them. Using that as your basis for argument is flawed and simply highlights your ignorance about the topic.


I'll say this again. ALL (you know, EVERY army ever produced for 40k since 2nd edition) has lost something. Your e-peens are still intact I assure you, you are no less a man/woman/boy or girl just because you are now dealing with what others have had to deal with. Get over it, move on. Squat players did and so did the players of EVERY (oh that all encompassing word again) army ever produced by GW. :rolleyes:

You really like spouting your self-righteous crap, don't you? Obviously you just don't get it that NO ONE has to move on if they don't want to. The game works fine with the rules as they are and if I or anyone else choose to use one that you don't agree with then that has nothing to do with manhood, womanhood, or whatever. It has to do with personal choice and what *we* find enjoyable. Trying to bully people into your way of thinking because you think you have the right to do so is juvenile. To sum up your argument and to turn it back on you: grow up. Bullying wasn't acceptable in grade school. It certainly isn't anywhere else, especially from someone who *claims* to be more mature than that.

Cheers, Gary

sebster
23-08-2007, 07:57
One rant deserves another after all. I personally am sick of players like you trying to tell me I have to play your way because you are somehow in control of whether or not I can find games or not. I have news for you, if you refuse to play me and I find someone else to play then it's *you* who's looking for a game, not me.

Cheers, Gary

Amen to that. As I said earlier in the thread, Iíd be happy to play against someone using the old codex, provided it looked like a fun game. Just like Iíd be happy to play against someone using the new codex, or a codex they made up the night before.

At the same time, Iím quite willing to decline game against currently legal, but boring lists (like the three falcons oí lame list). I turned back plenty of games against all infiltrating Alpha legion armies, and Iíve played exactly one game against an Iron Warriors army (which I actually won, partly because my opponent lacked badly for ability, and partly because I just ran forward and got lucky). But there were lists built in the old codex that Iíd be happy to play again, even if theyíre not tournament legal anymore. Because thatís my criteria- will this be a fun game? I donít play in tournaments so its my prerogative as to what lists I field and what lists I play against. Everyone else has that same freedom.

That said, Iíd ask people to look at exactly why they want to use the old codex. If its because itís the only way to put their EC, LatD or Alpha legion on the table without a stupid amount of Ďcounts así, then fair enough. If its because your havocs canít get tank hunters any more and itís just not fair and youíre going to hold your breath until GW apologizes, well then frankly Iím glad I havenít ever played you.

Vineas
23-08-2007, 08:05
I don't have to move on if I don't want? Great, I'll continue to use units of Juggernaughts in my Chaos army, ill just cut and paste the rules from 3rd edition codex because I really miss my unit of 5 juggernaughts.

I think I will cut and paste the solitaire rules from the online harlie codex into the new Eldar codex because I really think it's unfair I had to give them up.

After all, if people can opt to use the 3.5 codex against me (if I let them) I'm gonna do the same. If you have no problem with me using the aforementioned units I will let you use the 3.5 codex.

If you have a problem, it's how you so eloquently put it, then it is you who will be finding someone to have a game with.

I'm not spouting self-righteous crap. Every goddamn whine thread on here has been about EC and AL players losing something and when they are told it could be worse or that they are not the only ones to lose units they reply with "fanboi" and "apologist". I'd give you examples of other armies who had it worst than EC's but since you are apparently old enough to be my dad (meaning you are at least 50 years old) and have been in this hobby since RT I don't need to tell you what other armies have lost since you have been there.

Do you NOT agree that other armies lost stuff and not just current EC's? If you can't then your comment on being a vet is BS and anything you have to say is not deemed worthy of reading, if you can honestly agree with me about other armies losing stuff over 4 editions then you can agree that certain chaos players are having to deal with what gamers from 2nd edition on had to deal with it (and yes we did have to move on if we want to play outside our circle of friends, and i don't mean just tournaments).

Agree with me or disagree?

rintinglen
23-08-2007, 08:31
theluc,







I'll say this again. ALL (you know, EVERY army ever produced for 40k since 2nd edition) has lost something. Your e-peens are still intact I assure you, you are no less a man/woman/boy or girl just because you are now dealing with what others have had to deal with. Get over it, move on. Squat players did and so did the players of EVERY (oh that all encompassing word again) army ever produced by GW. :rolleyes:

So we have a Company that consistently changes its games and screws over the people who play them by outlawing their army lists, thus rendering pointless their investment of scores--if not hundred--of dollars, pounds, marks, franks or euros and we are supposed to just shine it on?
That absolutely is asinine.
We, the injured, ought to be standing up and screaming that "WE ARE MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE." I personally am not going to spend anymore money on GW products until Jervis Johnson goes. This is supposed to be a fun game, he is making it unfun.
What is worse, he is killing the goose that layed the golden eggs. If the Space Marine Codex gets the same thumping that the DA and BA got, the game is going to take it on the chin down the road. When the new kids I see playing find out that the nifty Space Marine box set that they conned their parents into buying can't win a single game against the Eldar, Tau and Tyranid Codices, they will go back to their Playstations and the hobby will languish, people will lose their jobs, and somebody else will rise to take the place of GW.
Yeah Vineas, I can tell the future, I saw it happen in Detroit, where foolish decisions and poor product design cost hundreds of thousands of people their jobs. All GW has to do is keep on keeping on the way that it is and it can join GM at number two, until it falls further down the pack.
Now I happen to like playing table top games. I play at the LA bunker store when I can. But I don't have to. I have other hobbies, I can do other things, and I probably will when they get around to ruining my codex as they have others.
Oh and one final comment about all those fine "Counts As" suggestions. Just about every tournament I have played requires WYSIWYG for the models used there. So, just telling people that your power fists are really just ccw's
and those lascannons are actually autocannons, or vis versa doesn't quite cut the mustard.

byteboy
23-08-2007, 08:34
Amen to that. As I said earlier in the thread, I’d be happy to play against someone using the old codex, provided it looked like a fun game. Just like I’d be happy to play against someone using the new codex, or a codex they made up the night before.

At the same time, I’m quite willing to decline game against currently legal, but boring lists (like the three falcons o’ lame list). I turned back plenty of games against all infiltrating Alpha legion armies, and I’ve played exactly one game against an Iron Warriors army (which I actually won, partly because my opponent lacked badly for ability, and partly because I just ran forward and got lucky). But there were lists built in the old codex that I’d be happy to play again, even if they’re not tournament legal anymore. Because that’s my criteria- will this be a fun game? I don’t play in tournaments so its my prerogative as to what lists I field and what lists I play against. Everyone else has that same freedom.

That said, I’d ask people to look at exactly why they want to use the old codex. If its because it’s the only way to put their EC, LatD or Alpha legion on the table without a stupid amount of ‘counts as’, then fair enough. If its because your havocs can’t get tank hunters any more and it’s just not fair and you’re going to hold your breath until GW apologizes, well then frankly I’m glad I haven’t ever played you.

Sebster:
I agree with you. I'd like to keep 3rd Ed Thousand Sons so not only my opponents, but myself, won't have to go ":wtf: counts as what again?" (I will not tear up my models & go through repainting them,especially since my paint is disontinued & cannot be found anymore)
Also, I'd like to keep my hard to play army, because the new Sons look abhorently powerful, I envision so many people now using them.

Aside from that, if people NEVER purchased a 3rd Ed army book & stuck with 2nd Ed, I'd totally play them. (aside from figuring out Phases & other non existent rules, it would be nice to see if "Old School beats New School")

But from seeing all these things in the upcoming book, I am in no rush to pick it up & would be happy to continue playing w/the 3rd Ed book (not like I am a power gamer & sure as heck not like I win alot anyway.) So if people have an issue with it, they can A) purchase a 4th Ed Chaos book for me, B) not play me at all or C) play me & look forward to a fun game where I will most likely lose anyway :cool:

I put the time and money into this hobby, I should damn well have a say in what I can/cannot do when it comes to Editions to play in. As for background, I know many people use the Index Astartes book as a solid foundation for their armies fluff. I cannot/will not just ignore the information in those volumes.

Bassik
23-08-2007, 08:43
There are polls on various sites asking if people like the new codex or not. The majority likes it, they just don't have to talk about it again and again and again...

In my store, all Chaos players love the new codex, so it strikes us as odd the internet is so full of hatred... then we realised its just that a small minority hates the new codex, but they are the ones who have the biggest mouth.

jhon
23-08-2007, 08:59
for those who had read the new codex which one you perfer . using the 3 ed codex with the chapter apoved spacial rule [ you know the one print in the wd before the 3.5 ed comes out] or using the new 4ed choas codex ?

Vineas
23-08-2007, 09:01
There are polls on various sites asking if people like the new codex or not. The majority likes it, they just don't have to talk about it again and again and again...

In my store, all Chaos players love the new codex, so it strikes us as odd the internet is so full of hatred... then we realised its just that a small minority hates the new codex, but they are the ones who have the biggest mouth.

Give it up Bassik. GW is an evil Empire, JJ is Satan and Gav is Hitler and anybody who does not hate every goddamn unit/entry in the new Chaos codex (or any of the 3 to come before this) is a fanboi and an apologist.

It really is immature and stupid to get up in arms over a game of toy soldiers. If you don't like the new Chaos fine, we heard you over and over and over in the other 6 or 8 threads that are floating around. Better yet, sell your stuff and use the money to by yourself a hooker. I think some of you people have bigger issues than not being able to use a few plastic army men.

Sheesh

silashand
23-08-2007, 09:15
I don't have to move on if I don't want? Great, I'll continue to use units of Juggernaughts in my Chaos army, ill just cut and paste the rules from 3rd edition codex because I really miss my unit of 5 juggernaughts.

Since when have I been arguing for cut & paste whatever I want? I don't think anyone here has been saying that because everyone knows books are balanced internally. Using a discrete list from a single book is hardly unbalanced. Using whatever you want out of multiple books undoubtedly could be, though house rules that allow you to do so are fine as long as your opponent agrees.


I think I will cut and paste the solitaire rules from the online harlie codex into the new Eldar codex because I really think it's unfair I had to give them up.

If you are using the entire previous harlequin list then I don't see a problem with it as it was used under 4th up until the new eldar dex was released. Cut & paste would require you discuss the issue with your opponent beforehand.


After all, if people can opt to use the 3.5 codex against me (if I let them) I'm gonna do the same. If you have no problem with me using the aforementioned units I will let you use the 3.5 codex.

You really need to work on your analogies because you consistently compare apples & oranges. Your arguments do not work because of it.


If you have a problem, it's how you so eloquently put it, then it is you who will be finding someone to have a game with.

Hardly. As I said, I have plenty of players to game with. Of the six chaos players in my group (plus me) all of us will be retaining the current dex in lieu of the new one. Come to visit and you'll be hard pressed to find an opponent if you refuse to play 1/3 of club members, members who would play you as long as you don't act like an imbecile and try to berate their choices.


I'd give you examples of other armies who had it worst than EC's but since you are apparently old enough to be my dad (meaning you are at least 50 years old) and have been in this hobby since RT I don't need to tell you what other armies have lost since you have been there.

I have indeed, as have many members in my group.


Do you NOT agree that other armies lost stuff and not just current EC's? If you can't then your comment on being a vet is BS and anything you have to say is not deemed worthy of reading, if you can honestly agree with me about other armies losing stuff over 4 editions then you can agree that certain chaos players are having to deal with what gamers from 2nd edition on had to deal with it (and yes we did have to move on if we want to play outside our circle of friends, and i don't mean just tournaments).

No one has said if attending tournaments that we would be able to use the old codex. Every comment about using the old codex has been directed solely toward playing with *friends* in like minded gaming groups or clubs. So what if other armies have lost stuff? As long as the codecii work in the existing ruleset then changes between them are irrelevant and arguments using them as justification for forcing change are flawed. The same holds true for what is tournament "legal." If no one in your group ever attends tournaments, why should they care what a particular event does?


Agree with me or disagree?

Suffice to say I disagree entirely :).

Cheers, Gary

Vineas
23-08-2007, 09:43
My beef is with people claiming to lose something as if they are the only ones who ever did when it is a well known fact that every army lost something with codex changes, wether you choose to move on or not.

I could have kept using the original 3rd dex but I chose to sell my Chaos and build an Eldar army (of which I used the blue dex for even after the black one came out) because I did not like the Codex just as you don't like the 4th one. We both have opinions on what we like and dislike. I feel the same about 3.5 as you do 4th and neither one of us is going to change the mind of the other.

Lets agree to disagree.

sebster
23-08-2007, 09:51
Sebster:
I agree with you. I'd like to keep 3rd Ed Thousand Sons so not only my opponents, but myself, won't have to go " counts as what again?" (I will not tear up my models & go through repainting them,especially since my paint is disontinued & cannot be found anymore)

I have to admit TS were pretty rare on the ground out this way, I never played against them. My only concern would be that it was a notoriously poor codex, so I donít know how much fun it was to play against. Maybe a chance to take my all assault Tyranid warriors army oí doom? I can stick 54 of them in one FOC, and they sure do suck, could be a close game :).

But yeah, if you canít paint any additional models in the same colour as your current list, thereís no point putting an inconsistent army on the field for the sake of tournament rules in a friendly game.


Also, I'd like to keep my hard to play army, because the new Sons look abhorently powerful, I envision so many people now using them.

Thatís something people have to be careful about, making assumptions about the new rules without seeing them in play. By now most every unit in the book has been declared both overpowered cheese and completely worthless (except possessed, there is no escaping they really suck). Personally Iím not convinced the new TS are all that specialÖ theyíll be great if you get to rapidfire multiple MEQ targets, but that just isnít that easy to achieve, especially when you canít even be confident about moving 6Ē a turn. Come melee, TS will find their very pricey models dropping almost as often as regular tactical marines.

Personally, Iím predicting the standard CSM tournament army will be a static gunline built around havocs, a defiler and a full unit of obliterators. Itís a solid, tough wall of fire and if you bulk it up with standard CSM units, even when the enemy reaches you every unit youíve got will be effective in a countercharge. You can then bulk the list out with chosen, terminators and some leash powered HQs. Anyway, thatís my prediction, but we wonít know whatís going to be the best builds until the results start coming in.


I put the time and money into this hobby, I should damn well have a say in what I can/cannot do when it comes to Editions to play in. As for background, I know many people use the Index Astartes book as a solid foundation for their armies Fluff. I cannot/will not just ignore the information in those volumes.

If you want to play a list, and someone wants to play that list, let no man stand against you. Not even if theyíre going to complain about you on the internet :).

Hulkster
23-08-2007, 09:55
I understanf some of the problems some people have with the new dex.

but TBH the only people who have really lost out is the AL because of te lack of rules for cultists (which IMHO should have been in the 4th ed book)

now I personally would play against an AL player who used those rules from the 3rd ed book as it adds a lot of chracter to the army without making them uber.

Now all the other armies needed changes, especially the over powered iron warriors. they can still make an army with the theme of the army. it just isnt as good

with the exception of the AL case, I will not play against anyone chaos player unless he uses the 4th ed codex.

lemiwinks
23-08-2007, 10:04
I dont know if anyone else read the title....
but it says " Other than those who like the new Chaos..."
So there shouldnt really be page after page of useless debate.
ive said it before, this game and a bucket are toy soldiers only have 3 differences.
1. war hammer is more exspencive
2. war hammer has more rules then " Pow, I shot you first"
3. war hammer is made for ADULTS.

so lets act like adults.

unless this is a plastic tub of toy soldiers forum? If so I appologize. the way you all are arguing does belong on that fourm.

( Not trying ot attack or offend anyone. Just trying to shead some light)

sebster
23-08-2007, 10:36
I dont know if anyone else read the title....
but it says " Other than those who like the new Chaos..."

Which is referring to people with CSM armies. As in, there'd be no reason to use the old codex when you are happy to build your list with the new one. But the old codex users will need people to play against, so its a reasonable contribution from any non-CSM player to the thread to point out if you'd be happy to play against old lists. Whether or not us non-CSM like the old codex is irrelevant, what matters is if we'd be happy to play your old AL list.

You're right though, there's no point arguing the issue. Either you're happy to play with/against the old codex, or you're not. If you're not, there isn't much point telling off the people who are.


So there shouldnt really be page after page of useless debate.
ive said it before, this game and a bucket are toy soldiers only have 3 differences.
1. war hammer is more exspencive
2. war hammer has more rules then " Pow, I shot you first"
3. war hammer is made for ADULTS.

so lets act like adults.

Money isn't positively correlated with maturity. If anything, I'd say the opposite is probably true.

lemiwinks
23-08-2007, 10:45
Money isn't positively correlated with maturity. If anything, I'd say the opposite is probably true.

i was mainly talking about the content in the game and the level of complexity. not the money. but yes you can be young and be mature. i was relating the way that people were arguing with that of children. but to your first part. i agree that most of this is to say they wouldnt mind playing a 3rh or 3,5 list. and thats great. i was talking about the useless ramblings that dont belong.

sebster
23-08-2007, 10:59
i was mainly talking about the content in the game and the level of complexity. not the money. but yes you can be young and be mature. i was relating the way that people were arguing with that of children. but to your first part. i agree that most of this is to say they wouldnt mind playing a 3rh or 3,5 list. and thats great. i was talking about the useless ramblings that dont belong.

I donít know, it doesnít strike me as that complicated a game. Then you consider the content is pretty much a game thatís like a board game but with cool looking miniatures with big guns and daemons and superheavy tanks and powered armoured genetically engineered supersoldiersÖ and I donít think its going to appeal primarily to the mature individual. Also, weíre on the internet. Asking for maturity is pretty much spitting into the wind.

But thatís all an aside, I think we both agree that arguing about the army list someone on the other side of the globe is using is pointless.

lemiwinks
23-08-2007, 11:09
I donít know, it doesnít strike me as that complicated a game. Then you consider the content is pretty much a game thatís like a board game but with cool looking miniatures with big guns and daemons and superheavy tanks and powered armoured genetically engineered supersoldiersÖ and I donít think its going to appeal primarily to the mature individual. Also, weíre on the internet. Asking for maturity is pretty much spitting into the wind.

But thatís all an aside, I think we both agree that arguing about the army list someone on the other side of the globe is using is pointless.

i meant the content of the fluff and such. i wouldnt want my son reading it. I didnt mean mature in a suit and tie sence. just in the matuity level higher then a four year old.

but yes we agree completely. the person who posted this wanted opinions. not childish wars. personally i would have no problem playing someone who uses a 3.5 codex. and i do play chaos and i do like the new codex.

Thoth62
23-08-2007, 14:56
Also, weíre on the internet. Asking for maturity is pretty much spitting into the wind.

A very strong wind... That spits back at you. :p

I think the most important point that silashand made that I think needs to be reinforced is the fact that this is a game played amongst friends. We all know that if you tried to take 3.5 codex to a tournament, after the release of 4.0, you wouldn't be allowed to play. That's not the point. The point is that if you wanted to play 3.5, and your opponent didn't have a problem with it, then by all means, go for it. It really shouldn't be as big a deal as it is.

Think about it this way. Would some of you get as worked up as you are right now if someone came onto this forum and said "I don't like where this game is going, so I'm just going to play 2nd edition from now on."

What would your reaction be to that? I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be the same as what were seeing right now. Seriously, if people decide that they don't want to use 4.0, how does that change your life so drasticly that you need to come on here and rant about it.

I know maturity is over rated, but grow up.

Belisarius
23-08-2007, 15:42
A minority is too small of a sample to get a true idea on whether the book is hated or not. Also, there's the other book Chaos coming out next year. Seems to me that you and your group are being shortsighted not GW, since you don't know for sure what GW's plans are for Chaos.

I hardly think so patriot, as we are looking not just at the Chaos Dex but at the direction the game is going based off the new codex's that are coming out, not just Chaos (which incidently makes up the fewest members of our gaming club). What happens if doctrines are removed from the new IG list, or traits among marine chapters, this is the direction the game is moving and I think it will hurt them if they continue to do so. apoc will work in the short term but I believe they will not be able to keep the people they have lured back with it given the new mindset on codex's. The new chaos codex is about the four gods and it isn't generally regarded as a return of the legions, I hope I am wrong on this but there you have it. As for shortsighted we don't see a major problem coming to a head until at least a year and a half down the road to two years.

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 16:03
I hardly think so patriot, as we are looking not just at the Chaos Dex but at the direction the game is going based off the new codex's that are coming out, not just Chaos (which incidently makes up the fewest members of our gaming club). What happens if doctrines are removed from the new IG list, or traits among marine chapters, this is the direction the game is moving and I think it will hurt them if they continue to do so. apoc will work in the short term but I believe they will not be able to keep the people they have lured back with it given the new mindset on codex's. The new chaos codex is about the four gods and it isn't generally regarded as a return of the legions, I hope I am wrong on this but there you have it. As for shortsighted we don't see a major problem coming to a head until at least a year and a half down the road to two years.

Traits need to be revamped and many Space Marine players state this, so I expect there to be a revamp of them. I doubt that they would remove Traits totally. There's nothing wrong with the IG doctrines from what I can see, so again I doubt they'd drop them. Keep in mind that I don't play Chaos, SM, or IG. I do see them reworking the broken units to keep min/maxing to a minimum like they did with Chaos. Looking at the old Chaos and the new Chaos codex a lot of the changes were needed to bring the armies back into line with the rest of the armies. Also, I keep in mind a second Chaos book being released next year that would re-introduce a lot of options and hopefully keep the abuse to a minimum. There's nothing to say that they'll introduce the old legions back in as Chapter Approved in WD. My advice is to take a wait and see attitude before making any hasty conclusions. With the new Chaos codex I'm mighty tempted to build a Chaos army myself since it's more streamlined like the WH codex.

There are things that need to be fixed in every Codex. I know that Shield of Faith needs to be reworked since GW dropped minor psychic powers and are only using major psychic powers. More armor choices and wargear upgrades would also be nice which I'm sure that they'll do in the next Codex: WH.

EDIT: I forgot to add that in Apocalypse there is nothing in there for Witch Hunters. Not one thing and the only vehicle we've gotten new was the Repressor.

theluc
23-08-2007, 21:31
well to me ill stick to 3rd ed also is my gaming club ( most of them are old timers anyways and they are a blast to play with ) after a couple of phone calls im at the right spot for the vision i have ( and the club of course ) of 40k, sissies don't move, have pistol in that squad.. hell get in range and use it !!! a rhino hell go there now !!! if its gunned down use it as cover . you guys get the point

i wouldn't have to make big changes to my army to get in line with 4th ED, but the power gaming is too obvious..the ancient enemy rules helped alot for balance. the home grown codex i done is to prove that with a minimum 4th ed could have been way more a few 0-1 here and a few notes .. one new unit and voila, no special rules just those in the main rule book

my army listed in 3rd ED is pretty basic no vet skills no gift just basic ( to maximise on numbers ) i like chaos marines, i got 69 of them

the point is most players like their army special, unique with flavor and still be competitive with 4th ed we only get the last one even that is too much, they on the simple side over done it !!

ok some very old minis will see action again which is good, and less old ones are out, i don't why GW do this but its ridiculous, with all those years in the business they still do same mistakes .. will they ever learn ???

silashand
23-08-2007, 21:52
EDIT: I forgot to add that in Apocalypse there is nothing in there for Witch Hunters. Not one thing and the only vehicle we've gotten new was the Repressor.

According to Andy Hoare from GD-LA, he said he personally wrote 2-3 datafaxes for the Sisters/Ordo Hereticus. It's possible they are not in the printed book, but the designers have been saying for a while now that additional datafaxes would be available for download from the web. It's possible that's where the Sisters stuff will come in. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

dcikgyurt
23-08-2007, 23:48
Okay, at my local GW tonight I played a game of 40K using the current codex against a mate who was using the new codex (he's manger of another store and got his copy well early). I didn't do well. In fact I got my backside handed to me in lots of little pieces. It's not a fun army to go up against. It's also not the most powerful list available in the new codex. And before anybody asks, we are both experienced tournament players. I've had several people refuse to play me because of my reputation (then they watch me play and see that I make losing fun).

The new codex is superior, the old one is solid fuel. Get over it and move on. ;)

theluc
24-08-2007, 00:56
statement from a power gamer oh lala that is so solid .... one game a loss, hell thats playtesting alright

if its no fun what the point anyways

and no i will not move on .. ill stay right here instead.

not lots of ppl dont want to play with you because of your reputation, i wonder what that rep could be ..

anyone knows if the user name cheesemaster is taken

malisteen
24-08-2007, 01:05
I'll be using the new codex even if I don't think very highly of it. Then again, I didn't think very highly of the last codex, either.

dcikgyurt
24-08-2007, 04:06
statement from a power gamer oh lala that is so solid .... one game a loss, hell thats playtesting alright

if its no fun what the point anyways

and no i will not move on .. ill stay right here instead.

not lots of ppl dont want to play with you because of your reputation, i wonder what that rep could be ..

anyone knows if the user name cheesemaster is taken

Ask anybody from the Southampton (UK) GW store. Those who haven't watched me play don't want to play me, those who have do. I'm very sporting, I even help my opponents during the game. I see the whole thing as an excuse to have a laugh. Also, I'm not a power gamer, and I use the same army list no matter what opponent I'm facing. As for the one game arguement, we've had several battles at the store with people using the new codex (generally borowing the shop copy) and everytime Chaos wins. There is not one person who games in our store that dislikes the codex. FACT! I've read the codex myself and yes, it is more powerful than the last codex. Boo hoo, you can't have a tooled up daemon prince with four pages of special rules, nevermind.


People have really, really got this wrong. I don't mean to target just you, Polonius, but it just isn't about the difficulty of building a list, and it isn't about the difficulty of writing a new codex.

GW came out and clearly and simply stated when they wrote 4th ed the felt the game was dominated by static shooting, with full on assault in second place. What they wanted to introduce was mobile, short range gunfights. So they allowed you to double tap rapid fire weapons even after you moved, built a better missions system that encourages units to move up the field, and told people to put more terrain on their boards.

Then they released Codex Space Marines, kept to the old design principles of masses of options with open slather on your unit types and numbers. And everyone continued taking the optimum, six man las/plas and stood in their deployment zone, same old static play. Whoops. Except GW identified their mistake, and have admitted that codex was a failure.

Every codex since then has included deliberate changes to encourage mobile, short range gunfire. The best value for money gun in the tyranid codex is the devourer, a short range weapon, while biovores took it hard. Dire Avengers, short range mobile shooters, were given a massive boost, while starcannon and their small static guardian squads were gimped. Harlequins made a return, and never has a unit been so obviously designed to butcher static troops, while being so vulnerable to short range rapid fire. Then Dark Angels and Blood Angels came along, with cheaper transports and boosts for basic troops in bolt pistols and grenades. It also brought the combat squads rule, stopping half your troop choices from carrying heavy weapons, making them, you guessed it, mobile.

Now we get CSM, who have followed the exact same model. Cheaper transports, cheaper mobile troops, more power to individual troops, less heavy weapons in the troop choices.

Why are the options being stripped back? It has nothing to do with simplicity. Because GW is trying to move army lists towards mobile play. They're trying to make the game, even at the tournament level, a mobile game. A fun game.

Frankly, I'm bored with people complaining about the dumbing down of the game. There was never anything dumber than building optimised lists and sitting in your deployment zone blasting away hoping your twinks are better than the other guy's. Now, you want to play, you have to manouvre, you have to win the game by outsmarting the other guy on the table.

Yeah, lists are simpler, but the game itself is smarter, more involving. I know which I prefer.

And again, Polonius, I'm sorry I picked your post to start my rant. It wasn't just your post that set me off, it was half the posts in this thread, half the posts on this board. The repetition of the 'dumbing down' thing has just got to stop.

Taken from another thread on this site, quoted for truth.

theluc
24-08-2007, 05:57
a bible sized daemon prince..hell why i didnt think of that before lol

a cc baneblade on 2 legs wow awesome idea

yours must had been like that... aw crap i dont got that model

btw if you feel the need to defend yourself only proves me right

plus you also add comment from an other guy from a other thread

just marvelous

and i wont ask anything to anyone about you

if you like it good for you and play as much as you like, you are just in the wrong tread

dybbukdude
24-08-2007, 06:02
i know people still in 3rd edition chaos i view him as a hippie (not cause of his fro its because of 3rd edition)

theluc
24-08-2007, 18:35
hippies ??
there was no warhammer back in 69 as i recall LOL
did IG do vietnam ??
:P

Thoth62
24-08-2007, 19:09
i know people still in 3rd edition chaos i view him as a hippie (not cause of his fro its because of 3rd edition)

Wow. And that was only what? Three years ago?

Frgt/10
25-08-2007, 10:26
a bible sized daemon prince..hell why i didnt think of that before lol

a CC baneblade on 2 legs wow awesome idea

yours must had been like that... aw crap i dont got that model

:wtf: does that have anything to do with anything he said?....didnt think so


btw if you feel the need to defend yourself only proves me right

no it doesnt


plus you also add comment from an other guy from a other thread

just marvelous

again...:wtf:, hes backing up a valid argument with another quote which IMO has points that relate to what a lot of people are/arent whinging about.

theluc
25-08-2007, 14:04
soo does it mean i care ?? prolly not

if the arguments he made a ok with you , fine for you but aint good enuff for me thats all..

for me a codex should meet those criteria

balanced
not cheesy
fluffy
contain variety
highly customizable
playtested
and complete so we dont need faqs

to me several of those criteria are not met at all

i had the book and i ship it back to get a refund so to m any arguments wont be good until that book is fixed

otherwise just dont pay attention to what i write

Captain Micha
25-08-2007, 14:16
Did you ship the last book back too?

because by -your- own standards the last book was a dramatic failure

theluc
25-08-2007, 14:36
fist the army box the whole deal shippd back

and for 3rd ed .. i needed a base to fix my army from 2nd to 3rd the foc was a great idea ans also as a black legion player ( no cult marines ) ive buy many troops and my collection was making more sense to call it an army.

now the book is lik looking back to 2nd ed, and 3rd ed was a some photocopies
so to get a broken book for free, why complain

in any case i dont like it and nothing can change my mind, unless a good codex comes out. now that all of warseer knows im a 4th ed chaos codex hater at a professional level, im done of this thread

got painting to do and a warhound titan to build as center piece

whatever u think of the codex guys keep up gaming and have fun