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PNETOD
08-08-2007, 23:20
Well i would expect them to have more dinosours so why dont they have somthing equivalent to dragons.........besides carnosaurs:rolleyes:

Aflo
08-08-2007, 23:52
I agree it would be very cool. Although to be fair, what else could be done? I can't imagine them taking a hulking herbivore into battle and a the beefy looking stegasaurus/triceratops have been taken up. Velocoraptors are horned ones and carnasaurs are the archetypical carnivore. The only thing I can think of is compsognathus swarms :p

Bretonnian Lord
08-08-2007, 23:52
I know that a dragon is a large lizard (with wings) but for some reason I can't see the Lizardmen using them. Dinosaurs, yes I agree fit perfectly, but I can't envision an Old blood riding a dragon. :p

Thu far they have (roughly translated):

Triceratops/Stegadon
Cold Ones/Velociraptors
Terradons/Pteradactyles
Carnosaur/T-Rex

Salamanders??

Sorry for any incorrectly spelled names, I used to know a lot about Dinosaurs but my interest in them has waned through the years. :(

Goq Gar
08-08-2007, 23:55
(not well versed in dinosaur terminology).

Remember in jurrassic park, all those little baby dinosaurs that attacked in swarms? A unit of those would be cool.

In fact, what about those dinosaurs that had frilly necks, and spat acid? I can see a 12" -1 armour attack...

marneus54
09-08-2007, 00:01
one of those heavily armoured dinos with the mace like tail would be a cool model WS 3 BS 0 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 2 A 3 LD 8 Sv 2+ with a special atk with its tail. 1 Str 10 hit no save.

Tehkonrad
09-08-2007, 02:39
yeah that would be col as would some kind of flying plesiuosaur

theunwantedbeing
09-08-2007, 02:52
Dragons dont fit the lizardmen idea.
They dont work so well in the dense jungle,wings get in the way,flying around doesnt help as all you see is the canopy of the tree's.
Terradons wouldnt be enough to feed a dragon for very long,and would be hugely difficult to catch.
Plus fire breathing dragons in the middle of a forest = no forest very quickly.

Salamanders were initially a copy of dimetradon or similar things to that,not sure why they got spit acid though. Most likely some confusion between the names and the lizard in jurrasic park that spat acid,or the real life salamanders some of whom are belieived to breathe/spit/life in fire.

As for other possibly dinosaurs......something like ankylosaurus might work well,a southlands stegadon replacement perhaps.
Not really anything else available really as far as I can think up as possible dinosaur units for lizardmen.

Khorghan
09-08-2007, 02:57
Yeah lizards deffinatly need a big dinosaur (other that the triceretops)

Tysar
09-08-2007, 09:32
Did everyone forget about the Arcanodon? :D

"The Engine of the Gods is born upon the back of a mighty arcanodon, a rare beast of the deep jungles of Lustria. The energies unleashed by the Engine are terrifying to behold, as is the charge of the beast that bears it. The combination of both effects is often more than the enemy can withstand." - EotG description from Lustria

"When we were looking at the armies that take part in the Rise of Sotek, Dave Gallagher produced some spectacular concept work. My favourite was the Old One war machine we called the Engine of the Gods, a gigantic prismatic array of Aztec weirdness that can call down comets and is mounted on the back of a dinosaur that makes a Stegadon look small." - Lustria designer's notes

http://uk.games-workshop.com/lustria/designers-notes/images/concept.jpg

Maybe the Engine of the Gods will be included in the new lizardmen army book along with a nice model...

ZeroTwentythree
09-08-2007, 14:08
Thu far they have (roughly translated):

Triceratops/Stegadon
Cold Ones/Velociraptors
Terradons/Pteradactyles
Carnosaur/T-Rex

Salamanders??



It seems apparent from the above list that the Lizardmen are seriously lacking in dino monsters. :rolleyes:

Finnigan2004
09-08-2007, 15:09
I think more big dinos could overbalance a list that is already pretty good. I'm nearly done painting my lizards, and I actually really like the dino models. I suppose that if you are really desperate, you could include Asarnil. Of course, if you showed up with a second gen slaan and high elf dragon lord amongst a horde of dinosaurs, your opponent might punch you in the nose...:rolleyes:. Hmm... I actually do have a horde of dinos, and I could dust off the old Asarnil. All that magic, plus speed and nasty hitting power...

Ender Shadowkin
09-08-2007, 18:25
They had rules for a Coatyl in the Generals Compendium, I hope it makes it into the new book, it is very much akin a "feathered" dragon . . . and is anothe excellent node to the underlying mythology and imagry of the LM.

PNETOD
14-08-2007, 02:23
well all im saying is we need something equal to a dragon and a T5 Ws3 Cranosaur isint gonna do much

Ward.
14-08-2007, 11:00
Well in all fairness, the oldblood on the back and some of the carnies special abilities make the difference minimal.

But i think they should re-do the engine of the gods idea, or get forge world to make new rules like with the chaos mammoth.

Appoloclypse
14-08-2007, 12:38
I agree with the engine of the gods idea that sould be included in the "core" LM rules. The carnisours special rules and M7 realy make up for the like of flight and tuffnes of a dragon.

Hvidponi
14-08-2007, 12:57
I am just wondering... Why should everyone have a dragon? We might as well make a standard dargon that all lords can choose...

Von Wibble
14-08-2007, 15:45
(not well versed in dinosaur terminology).


In fact, what about those dinosaurs that had frilly necks, and spat acid? I can see a 12" -1 armour attack...

You are describing Salamanders in all aspects except the rules.

Atzcapotzalco
14-08-2007, 17:50
I'm inclined to agree my lizardmen aren't short of large spiky lizards, and on the subject of salamanders am inclined to say they aren't matched to a *specific* dinosaur, but rather breath fire/acid to better fill a role felt important to the army. Two roles even, given how much their rules changed from the original version. I have to admit, I felt the engine of the gods to be a good idea, but poorly represented ruleswise-basically, it's just a stonethrower attached to an inferior stegadon.
The Coatl is a nice idea with one problem-it's basically a high-level spellcaster, which is the mage-priests job.
As for a dragon, while as a southlands player I don't get access to Old-Bloods, I feel the carnosaur as an alternative mount adds character to the army, sets it apart slightly from elves, and that it lacks little in power when combined with a saurus oldblood.
Personally, I'd like to see a stegadon which was a little bit less prone to bounce right off heavy armour-currently I feel it falls short of the role it's intended to have except against the lightest troops out there.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-08-2007, 18:36
Another problem with having a Dragon in the Lizardman list is that Dragons are one of the few races the Old Ones didn't create/change, but is a true native of the Warhammer world and as such doesn't have any link to the Old Ones/Slanns/Lizardmen. I kind of imagine they could be quite annoyed with them for disturbing there world actually.

Atzcapotzalco
14-08-2007, 21:09
One small note for those interested in mobs of tiny dinosaurs-there is already an entry in the army book for jungle swarms. Not lizard swarms or snake swarms, "Jungle" swarms. Seems to me you can do a lot of interpreting that.;)

Xisor
14-08-2007, 23:04
The Loch Ness Monster? :p
Fair enough, perhaps its more suited to the fleets game (whose name totally escapes me right now), but water-based-dinos are always intriguing!

And, of course, the Slaan are fairly interesting beasties themselves!

PNETOD
15-08-2007, 23:26
Another problem with having a Dragon in the Lizardman list is that Dragons are one of the few races the Old Ones didn't create/change, but is a true native of the Warhammer world and as such doesn't have any link to the Old Ones/Slanns/Lizardmen. I kind of imagine they could be quite annoyed with them for disturbing there world actually.

Well in the codex itDOESsay Dragons kept clear of the OLD ONES but what if the OLD ONES left behing fliying violent pets;)

Scythe
16-08-2007, 09:59
Salamanders were initially a copy of dimetradon or similar things to that,not sure why they got spit acid though. Most likely some confusion between the names and the lizard in jurrasic park that spat acid,or the real life salamanders some of whom are belieived to breathe/spit/life in fire.


Tough technically speaking, dimetradon were not dinosaurs if I recall correctly. ;)

Maybe forgeworld does a Brachiosaurus like model someday for Lizardmen. Perhaps not as a pure attack creature, but as a troop transport or living siege tower. Would match the Chaos War Mammoth quite well.

ehlijen
16-08-2007, 11:01
The only dinosaur archetypes not already present in the lizardmen list are the Sauropods (long necked big ones), the duck bill ones and to some extent stego-/ankylosaurs that have already been suggested.
The first two are herbivores with almost no offensive capabilities whatsoever, so seing them on a battlefield is just going to be odd. The stego-/ankylosaurs are sorta present in the Stegadon (which is far more ceratops than those though).
Between the skinks(compsognathi), saurus (raptors), cold ones(utahraptors), kroxigors (carnosaurs) and carnosaus (T-Rex) the Theropods (the only predator dinsosaur type) are amply represented.
As for dragons, they are supposedly proud, wise and covetous. Not really the brute worker beast that makes a good servant of the old ones.

Also, on a last note: In one of the warhammer chronicles they had an army list called Valley of the Thunderlizards, basically an excuse to put all those plastic dinosaurs from your old collections on the table.

Tehkonrad
16-08-2007, 11:29
i always thought they should do somekind of etheral creature of unimaginable horror.... like agiant snake the wrath sotek condensd into one (realtivley) small package (small being about one carnosaur wide four stegies long ;) )

Appoloclypse
26-11-2007, 05:48
An anaconda, think realy fast aquatic rare unit with killing blow and fairly large, I think that would be cool, though not a dino.

DDogwood
26-11-2007, 15:20
I am just wondering... Why should everyone have a dragon? We might as well make a standard dargon that all lords can choose...

I remember when every army could take a dragon (and a number of other monsters, like cockatrices, griffons, giant spiders, and giant scorpions). Most armies could use these as mounts, but any army could take them as unmounted monsters.

Ethlorien
26-11-2007, 16:48
In the Jurassic Park novel, there were dinosaurs that could camoflage and couldn't the dilophosaurus spit acid/poison? I don't know game-rule wise what that would mean, but it'd be a neat idea. Unit A marches along next to a wooded area when suddenyl 'growl' here's a big dinosaur de-camoflaging!

Have velocirators with something like the BoC Ambush rule. Swarms of them running in from all sides, ripping and slashing into surprised ranks...

txamil
26-11-2007, 17:48
marneus54's dinosaur (allosaur?) would be fun.

I want more dinosaurs and less lizards too.

Pokpoko
26-11-2007, 18:22
couldn't the dilophosaurus spit acid/poison?no,it couldn't. it was pure confabulation for the purpose of plot in Jurrasic park, one that is,as presented in this thread, coming back to haunt the world again and again. if there was a poison,or even strawberry-milkshake, spitting dino,we haven't found one yet,or i'm not aware of it:p

I don't know game-rule wise what that would mean, but it'd be a neat idea. actually it's a very neat idea,like the old 40k Ambush rule where you'v written down the exact location of the unit before the game, and uncovered it in your turn. deploy said unit anywhere up to half of the board...but i think it would be better suited as another sacred spawning really,or magic item/banner. imagine a saurus regiment popping up from the treeline behind you?:D
heck,if it was up to me i'd redo the entire saurus unit idea,and make them pure skirmishers-would be more suited to the whole "born predator" fluff idea. it would be a bit of a break with the current fluff tho-and it would make the lot more dino-saury this way. that,or bring the Quetzalcoatl as a fully-fledged hero/rare choice:)

AdamAtCollege
26-11-2007, 19:42
In the Jurassic Park novel, there were dinosaurs that could camoflage and couldn't the dilophosaurus spit acid/poison?

Yeah, the camo dinosaur was the carnosaur, though Chriton just made up that trait (as well as making up the acid spit of the dilophosaur). In JP3, you see a carnosaur on the beach in one scene, though it's hardly memorable.

Revlid
26-11-2007, 19:53
You are describing Salamanders in all aspects except the rules.

I think that was intentional. ;)

Ethlorien
26-11-2007, 20:23
What about those parasauralophus? Slap them on a chariot and you'd have some bonus impact hits no?

marneus54
26-11-2007, 20:38
marneus54's dinosaur (allosaur?) would be fun.

I want more dinosaurs and less lizards too.

Thanks. I was going for a 2+ armor save maybe 3 attacks at strength 6 or 7 or 1 attack with its tail that is killing blow.

zak
26-11-2007, 20:54
I wouldn't want to see extra dino's for no reason. I think there is plenty already and any larger than the Carnosaur would be game breaking. The current dinos all fill their role well. The Lizardmen army, if anything, need some form of medium infantry in between Saurus and Skinks. Cold one (or smaller similar type mount) mounted Skinks would be a start as the core is a bit on the thin side. The Jungle swarms idea suggested earlier would have merit if the swarm was of any use in 7th edition.

marneus54
26-11-2007, 21:06
Just an idea and this is nothing to take seriosly. But maybe 2 Argentinosaurus's or 2 Apatosaurus's pulling a chariot would be awesome. 5D6 Str 7 impact hits. haha. For clarification on these types...the huge long neck dinos that eat leaves.

Sephtar II
27-11-2007, 07:26
Well I currently have a Brachiosaur (big long necked) converted into effectivley a lizardman war mammoth:evilgrin:. I think that an ankylosaur would be a good upgrade to a stegodon, buy a stegodon pay X points for upgrade etc. But a coatl would be very nice. Personaly I think that a Carnosaur is on a par with a dragon and with ultimate predator mine has never had any trouble with munching on dragons all day long.

General Dinosaur points:
The Poisen spitting and camoflage thing are creative license by Micheal Chriton, though skin patterns like for example tigers are very possible.
Dilophosaurs (the 'poisen spitting' ones) were really 6 meters in length.
Cold ones should really be Deinonychus as velociraptors were about the size of large turkeys.

marneus54
27-11-2007, 07:35
You could say Utah raptors are cold ones. They look similar and are bigger than velociraptors.

Flypaper
27-11-2007, 08:54
Honestly, the Lizard list shouldn't add any more dinos. There's enough to cover pretty much every part of the spectrum, and any addition would just dillute the existing units.

New big combat dino? Impossible to balance without obsoleting or being obsoleted by the Steggy or the Carnosaur.

New 40mm dinos? Would detract from Salamanders and Krox.

Official Engine of the Gods? Giving Lizzies a (decent) long-range warmachine would be a huge design mistake. They're balanced around their 'medium range' movement and shooting.

...Having said that, an Ankylosaurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankylosaurus) tank would be pimp. :p

One viable option would be to introduce legal variants on the existing big dinos, a bit like the semi-official Hydra variants for DE. Like giving the Carnosaur Iguanadon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iguanadon) thumb spike attacks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I00WC3FJuv0). :D

marneus54
27-11-2007, 08:58
Hopefully forge world or some one sees the Ankylosaurus idea and makes it a reality.

Pokpoko
27-11-2007, 09:57
You could say Utah raptors are cold ones. They look similar and are bigger than velociraptors.then the cold one is too small:p



New big combat dino? Impossible to balance without obsoleting or being obsoleted by the Steggy or the Carnosaur.

New 40mm dinos? Would detract from Salamanders and Krox.heaven forbid giving players an actual choice of minis to do similiar jobs:eek:we all know making any sort of more difficult choice would lead to said palyer's brain meltdown, and GW would loose playerbase this way...


Official Engine of the Gods?it was official, didn't see any "we thought you'd like to see this,but sorry,you can't play with it" note in the army list.

marneus54
27-11-2007, 13:09
then the cold one is too small:p

What size do you think they should be? Bigger? Or smaller?

Flypaper
28-11-2007, 06:14
heaven forbid giving players an actual choice of minis to do similiar jobswe all know making any sort of more difficult choice would lead to said palyer's brain meltdown, and GW would loose playerbase this way...
There's plenty of examples of redundant units making each other less interesting, from Stormvermin to Phoenix Guard. Additionally, it's much much easier to balance the list if you can assign a single unit a consistent role.

...Seriously, it's bad design, it detracts from model sales, and it makes customers unhappy. Not worth it. :o

Appoloclypse
28-11-2007, 12:51
then the cold one is too small
actualy it isnt the Utah raptor was used as the velociraptors in jarasic park because of their size the actual velocirapors where indeed smaller though.

Pokpoko
28-11-2007, 13:40
uh,wasn't the utahraptor supposed to be some 6m long and 2m tall? the raptors in the move were(if i remeber,haven't seen it in a long time) only a little bit higjher than the humans,and definetly not 6m long.in such case,the gamezone predator model would be more or less sized properly*still too short,but a tail that long would snap immediatly*. only sized,as it's looks are more fantasy'ish than "dinosaurish".

Appoloclypse
28-11-2007, 20:34
uh,wasn't the utahraptor supposed to be some 6m long and 2m tall? the raptors in the move were(if i remeber,haven't seen it in a long time) only a little bit higjher than the humans,and definetly not 6m long.in such case,the gamezone predator model would be more or less sized properly*still too short,but a tail that long would snap immediatly*. only sized,as it's looks are more fantasy'ish than "dinosaurish".

I havent seen it in a long time either though I do remember seeing a documentary on it a few years ago and it was mentioned that they based the velociraptors in the movie on Utah raptors.

Pokpoko
29-11-2007, 13:57
Whats wrong with Carnosaurs?they don't fly,making them perhaps the most useless monstrous mount in the game:cries::p

marneus54
29-11-2007, 18:44
they don't fly,making them perhaps the most useless monstrous mount in the game:cries::p

A carnosaur sarcifices it's wings for the ability to kill any monster, and I say that with utmost ernest, any monster in the game with ease. I don't think and highelf player would directly send his lord on a dragon after a beefed up oldblood on a carnosaur. If they survive...good bye to both of them.

Pokpoko
29-11-2007, 19:21
yeah..it WOULD.if it had a chance. guess what,that flying dragon won't even have to come close to the slowpoke if he won't feel like it. he'll chew through the regiments happily somewhere else. without having to manouver through the terrain and all. not to mention,if there are any cannons/bolttrhowers present, they'll have field day, and without any fear-this guy won't be charging them on second turn-more like 3-4 turns of free shooting.in lustria-i'd take him no questions. on a normal battlefield?dead weight most of time.

marneus54
29-11-2007, 20:08
Yeah but I play him in the middle, if there is cover. (not usually) Charge him straight up the middle, people at my game center play warmachines on the flanks. When he's in combat...:eek: look out he just keeps killing. If you can hide behind something to eliminate(sp) warmachines and kill off other units to attract CC attention. I think you can make a dragon rider come to you and that will be a very very bad mistake on his part.

Pokpoko
29-11-2007, 20:49
i think majority of tournament players disagree,given how often there is one in the list;) if he was good they'd be all over him

Scythe
30-11-2007, 08:18
Tournaments aren't everything. Dragons and other monsters also rarely see a tournament either, mainly because tournaments tend to center around 2000 points, and it is rarely a good idea to sink 25% of that points into a single model which can be taken out by a cannonball. What the Carnosaur lacks in maneuverability, the Old Blood on top of it compensates with seer killing power. It is one of the few monsters which can take units head on with a little luck. With up to 14 attacks between the rider and its mount, that is not so surprising.

Appoloclypse
30-11-2007, 09:40
i think majority of tournament players disagree,given how often there is one in the list;) if he was good they'd be all over him

Most tournament players are going to take the slann, level 4 wizard with ld 9 plus general and bsb all rolled into one package, one high point package. and so they can take temple gaurd.

Pokpoko
30-11-2007, 10:43
Tournaments aren't everything. Dragons and other monsters also rarely see a tournament either, mainly because tournaments tend to center around 2000 points, and it is rarely a good idea to sink 25% of that points into a single model which can be taken out by a cannonball. What the Carnosaur lacks in maneuverability, the Old Blood on top of it compensates with seer killing power. It is one of the few monsters which can take units head on with a little luck. With up to 14 attacks between the rider and its mount, that is not so surprising.
yes,tourenys aren't everything,but they are a very good gauge for what is and what isn't a good choice. and given how WHB is almost exclusively about manouverability*well,it is the most important phase* this M7 means it's rather limited in it's choice of targets. if the opponent has some sort of sacrifcie units, he'll plunk them down firt during the deployment, wait til; you have placed the carni, and then deploy his most expensive/killy units away from him.

BigRob
30-11-2007, 11:15
I remember seeing an anklyosaurus stegadon conversion in White Dwarf sometime ago. It was a golden deamon entery.
Plus they had pictures of the engine of the gods, but i'm pretty sure it was a conversion (does anyone know what it was built from?

Pokpoko
30-11-2007, 11:21
oh,as for the earlier "problem" of incorporating further dinos. how about the usual "pimp your dino" unit upgrades?you start with the very basic steggie, and upgrade to ankylosaur(better save and strenght,but no impact hits,or sths.),really big pahycephalosaur(weaker,more impact hits)...same with cold ones-a "kiddy-carnie" riding unit,like the rhinowhateveritscalled riders for Ogres?

Finnigan2004
01-12-2007, 15:55
Ooh, a kroxigor on a dinosaur using rhinox stats. I think that I have to do it now.

Greymarch
01-12-2007, 16:14
How about taking a Pachycephalosaurus? It could "make challenges" and head-butt the other players characters.

txamil
01-12-2007, 21:15
oh,as for the earlier "problem" of incorporating further dinos. how about the usual "pimp your dino" unit upgrades?you start with the very basic steggie, and upgrade to ankylosaur(better save and strenght,but no impact hits,or sths.),really big pahycephalosaur(weaker,more impact hits)...same with cold ones-a "kiddy-carnie" riding unit,like the rhinowhateveritscalled riders for Ogres?

I would so love that. A little like Tyranids (if I understand them correctly- I dont play 40K).

Appoloclypse
01-12-2007, 21:27
I would so love that. A little like Tyranids (if I understand them correctly- I dont play 40K).

You are thinking of the tyranid carnafex. GW wants everyone to think of dinos when they here about nids but they are bugs, they all have 6 lims and an exoseleton. I think that they could add in some more dions but not as upgrades for the stegadon or carnisour, they need to be some sort of actual unit.

marneus54
04-12-2007, 23:47
Roight. Reading up on some well written Fluff novels (the burning shore) I found out some sizes of the creatures.
Skinks: Man sized averaged 6 foot tall
Saurus: chaos warrior sized 6'5-7'5 feet tall
Oldbloods: a bit taller than saurus
Stegadons: well...you know big.
Carnosaur: :eek:

Appoloclypse
05-12-2007, 12:27
Skinks: Man sized averaged 6 foot tall

HMM what I got was more like 5 foot, though that is more from the follow up short story in tales of the old world.