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Alco Engineer
24-08-2005, 06:56
Hey guys, I was watching a 3000pt VC vs Chaos warrior game last night and came to the realisation Tzentch(sp??) can be really scary!

The one that really got me was Green Fire where it was cast on a unit of 18 black knights (and in another turn 20 Grave guard) and every single model get a single attack against their own unit! the black knights dispelled it and the grave guard got off light but it could have been incredibly devistating if many 6's were rolled to wound!

Anothe one I watched was the S2 on every model in the unit, and every casualty brings a horror. If they've exhausted all of their sipell dice the horrors can the use thier magis to cause another S2 or 3 (can't remember) (bound level 1 if there's just 1 horror) on every model in the unit! this was devistating against skeletons and zombies and could tear the heart out of a rank and file army.

Does anyone else have any other experiences where they've seen this because I was amazed. I know Tzentch is supposed to be the king of chaos magic but that was just unstoppable!

athamas
24-08-2005, 07:12
erm... i think you were being had....

they have a unit dependant spell, D6 S 1/5 units size
a 12" ranged S3 spell evereything in unit,
and a contact spell, that you rol a die for every horror in base contact with enemy, on a 6 something is killed and turned into a horror!

there magic is powerfull yes, but not over powering... its ver unpredictable,...i like magic, but decided to go for slaanesh as their magic is alwayts nasty.... [a spell like green fire, but only effects a character...]

so.. hope that clears up the horrors, you were being had!

Major Defense
24-08-2005, 10:08
Athamas is very correct, Slannesh spells are the most ridiculously powerful cheese in the entire game, IMHO. Ridiculous!!

And about the spell that creates Horrors, they cast their bound spell at the beginning of the turn so Horrors created by this spell do NOT get to cast their bound spell until the start of the Chaos player's next magic phase. By then the few of them that there are have usually been wiped out.

Crube
24-08-2005, 10:15
Indeed being and had are words to be used here...

Green fire cannot be used against targets who are immune to psychology, so that rules out Skellies etc...

Also, Horrors have to use 1 spell (as a bound item) at the START of the magic phase

The thing with Tzeentch magic, it's the potential thats scary. Potentiall you can get 6 S6 hits on a unit with a spell taht needs a 5+ to cast, or you can kill an entire unit with Green Fire, or an enemy character can die if it fails a Ld test. The reality is that these things rarely happen to their full effect.

Tzeentch is fickle

But hey, it's fun watching your opponents face desperately trying to work out which ones to dispell...

Major Boothroid
24-08-2005, 10:46
I have to agree with Crube hear, if you point a red fire at a chariot people will nearly always let it past thinking 'its only going to be S 3-4', but once you get 5 S6 hits and destroy a chariot like this people get worried.

Also, not all Tzeench spells are random, you can rely on indigo and orange to do there jobs well. Also yellow is usefull in daemonic legions as it saves your characters haveing to buy diabolical splendor. Green is again relyable and if used on a unit with a strenghth higher than its toughnes it is realy quite nasty.

der_lex
24-08-2005, 18:14
Tzeentch is indeed great when the dice are going your way...already mentioned this in another post, but managed to get in 12 S7 hits on a unit of hammerers the other day. On the other hand, I got a single S1 hit on a unit as well. So are the mischievous ways of the Changer...

Even though it doesn't work on units immune to psychology, Green Fire is still a badass spell...it's the one spell my opponents always opt to dispel ever since they saw half a unit of 15 Sauruses die from its effects...

Orange fire is an awesom spell for a character to have. A chaos lord that re-rolls all saves, to hit rolls and damage rolls is capable of wiping out units on his own...

Sanjuro
24-08-2005, 21:20
Tzeentch magic is actually very weak compared to the lore of Slaanesh. While the lore of Slaanesh does not have the sheer damage potential of Tzeentch's lore, it is much more tactically useful and 10 times as likely to have a major impact on the game.

This coming from a Tzeentch player. Sure, facing 14 power dice is scary for an opponent - but when you aren't actually doing anything with your magic, it quickly becomes less scary. People see 12+ power dice and think about when they faced Lizardmen or Skaven or Vampire Counts with that many dice. However, Tzeentch magic is much more soft compared to what those armies can do. And if you go not so extremely heavy on the power dice with Tzeentch (think 10 dice) it's a walk in the breeze for your opponent - he won't even notice your magic phase.

Buddy of mine likes to stock up on dispel scrolls. 3 is the minimum for him, usually 4. By the end turns of the game, facing my Tzeentchians, buddy will usually still have 1-2 unused dispel scrolls resting comfortably in the pockets of their masters. That's how little he cares about my casting, and that's how small of a dent it does to his armies (Skaven and Lizzies).

All Tzeentch magic has ridicously high casting values as well. I mean, come on. The Comet is 10+ to cast for pete's sake. Then how come my 'attack yourself' spell is 11+? A comet has laid waste to half my army many a time, effectively winning the game. Green fire has thus far never performed such a feat. I guess the developer's kind of counted on everyone using the Staff of Cheese (an item that is just as hated as the Ressurrection Orb in 40k).

Tzeentch magic is... amusing, in a sad way. Kind of like looking at a very old, fat and partially blind dog trying to act like he is still king of the neighbourhood.

samw
25-08-2005, 00:11
They seriously need to improve the Tzeentch spell list. Dropping the casting values and making violet fire's effect the Breath of Change would be a good start.

Makaber
25-08-2005, 02:48
As a beastman player, I'm pretty fond of the Lore of Tzeench. First of all, it contains two very neat magic missiles. I'd much rather have the tremendeous damage potential over a set strength, just because of the unexpected havoc they can cause. Green Fire can be very nice; in a recent game versus Punk in Drublic, I got off an irrisistable force on a large unit of empire greatswords that severely screwed up his battle line, followed by a blue fire a little later that took care of the few survivors. Yellow Fire goes a little way to compensate for the general lack of beastman magic, and Orange Fire is nifty since Tzeench mages very often are powerful combat characters as well.

The only ones I don't like is Pink Fire (which far too often can grant your opponent a free overrun), and Violet Fire (which is just too expensive).

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 03:45
All Tzeentch magic has ridicously high casting values as well. I mean, come on. The Comet is 10+ to cast for pete's sake. Then how come my 'attack yourself' spell is 11+? A comet has laid waste to half my army many a time, effectively winning the game. Green fire has thus far never performed such a feat. I guess the developer's kind of counted on everyone using the Staff of Cheese (an item that is just as hated as the Ressurrection Orb in 40k).
Comet of Casandora is 12+ to cast, as per the revision to the Heavens Lore.

Tzeentch magic can make you wary, but what really kills it is the variable Strength of the hits, IMO. Sure, 6 hits might make you a little scared. But if that Strength dice comes up as a 1? It's no more than a light breeze unless you are really bad with dice.

Slaaneshi magic, on the other hand, is much, much more dangerous.

shadowprince
25-08-2005, 04:37
TZeentch magic is ok, its strength comes from getting cast a lot. But several of their spells on;y work well on certian types of units. the one when people attacks themselves good against swordmaster horrible against dwarfs and calvary and even basic infantry. The horror one isn't great either only wounding on fives except for those skink armyis. Slaanesh is powerful but you really won't get that many power dice.

Sanjuro
25-08-2005, 07:36
Comet of Casandora is 12+ to cast, as per the revision to the Heavens Lore.


No, sir. I'm afraid those rules are marked quite clearly as 'TRIAL RULES' in big red letters, which would lead me to presume that the changes are not official by the letter of the law. The fact that most tournaments go with the revised lores doesn't actually mean anything - the change is very unofficial and many simply choose to go with it as a house rule. Myself, I prefer to go with the rules as they are written in the rulebook (or rules updates which are not Trial). House rules have never been much for me.

And even presuming those revisions were made official at a later date - it would not change the fact that Tzeentch magic is really quite weak. It's not a problem - it's just a fact. I'm hoping that in the next edition they change the Backstory so Tzeentch is portrayed as a weak, incompetent and pathetic Chaos God, which would more accurately describe his abilities on the battlefield. He should most certainly NOT be described as the 'God of Magic'.

Slaanesh background could also be changed, so that it says that Slaanesh magic is the most powerful and potent of all the chaos magicks. Again, just to reflect how the armies actually play.

Eldacar
25-08-2005, 09:00
No, sir. I'm afraid those rules are marked quite clearly as 'TRIAL RULES' in big red letters, which would lead me to presume that the changes are not official by the letter of the law. The fact that most tournaments go with the revised lores doesn't actually mean anything - the change is very unofficial and many simply choose to go with it as a house rule. Myself, I prefer to go with the rules as they are written in the rulebook (or rules updates which are not Trial). House rules have never been much for me.
They are official in GT's, and that is enough for me. Going with them as they are printed in the rulebook means you end up with a laughably overpowered Lore. Who would bother taking anything else than Heavens by the rulebook? More to the point, did anybody? Not that I know of.


And even presuming those revisions were made official at a later date - it would not change the fact that Tzeentch magic is really quite weak.
Did I say that it did? Nope.

Sanjuro
25-08-2005, 09:31
They are official in GT's, and that is enough for me. Going with them as they are printed in the rulebook means you end up with a laughably overpowered Lore. Who would bother taking anything else than Heavens by the rulebook? More to the point, did anybody? Not that I know of.


Well, none the less, those are the official rules. If GW really wanted to change Heavens from being so horrendously overpowered, they would only have had to write 'official' instead of 'trial'. They chose not to (for god knows what reason), so I choose to go with the offical ruling in this matter, even though it stinks. I'd like to replace a bunch of other official rules that stink with house rules, but after a while, I'd just end up with a totally different game. Plus, it gives me the moral high ground when facing Lizardmen with a 2nd gen Slann. :rolleyes:


Did I say that it did? Nope.

Well, that remark wasn't entirely directed at you, it was more a general statement of mine to point out what a sad state of affairs Tzeentch magic is in. I know you didn't say that it would change anything, but I wasn't attacking your post or anything. :) I was merely trying to be overly clear on this subject. I find that postiong on message boards generally leads to pretty big assumptions being made (I do it myself), so I wanted to rule out that possibility and be very, very precise in my point. Sorry if I pissed you off.

Neknoh
25-08-2005, 17:22
The one thing that will make Tzeentchian armies superior, and I mean VASTLY superior when it comes to magic in 7th edition, is if a certain rumour strikes true.

The said rumour is, that Wizards of different kinds still generates the same PD and DD, and can use one more PD than normal for casting spells (i.e. a level 1 using 3 dice).

However, the wizards will ONLY be able to use the dice they themselves generate, and those generated by the army, which are, 2 dice... normally.

If this is true, then, a Tzeentchian army WILL be able to pour Powerdice into ANY spell they want to cast, any time, just like now, whilst others, will have to use those 2 dice granted very carefully for when they want their Level 4 to do something of value, or need a second spell from that level 2


And as for Tzeentchian magic being weak... ever been on the recieving end of 4!! Red Fires in the FIRST turn of the game, three of them aimed at the Hellcannon... I think not, it killed off the crew and wounded the cannon, he also got a fourth spell off towards a unit of 20 Marauders, killed off 5 with it, who promptly fled, straight past both Wariors and Knights, chosen Wariors and Knights they were... and they fled!!!

Man, I HATE proxie games (I was playing a proxied 2k Nurgle and my friend proxied 2k Tzeentch)

The Black Aquila
25-08-2005, 18:49
All Tzeentch magic has ridicously high casting values as well. I mean, come on. The Comet is 10+ to cast for pete's sake. Then how come my 'attack yourself' spell is 11+? A comet has laid waste to half my army many a time, effectively winning the game. Green fire has thus far never performed such a feat.

Last time I checked Green fire was only 9+ to cast.


This coming from a Tzeentch player. Sure, facing 14 power dice is scary for an opponent - but when you aren't actually doing anything with your magic, it quickly becomes less scary. People see 12+ power dice and think about when they faced Lizardmen or Skaven or Vampire Counts with that many dice. However, Tzeentch magic is much more soft compared to what those armies can do. And if you go not so extremely heavy on the power dice with Tzeentch (think 10 dice) it's a walk in the breeze for your opponent - he won't even notice your magic phase.

As for Tzeentch magic, while it's lore is rubbish in some people's opinion, it really depends on how the person you face thinks as well. If they are a pessimistic kind of person, when you cast Red Fire they won't be thinking "Oh it's nothing, chances are it won't reach that high a strength compared to a normal fireball." They will be worried and thinking about that if they do let it go it that it will turn out to deal strength 6 hits. The real power if you ask my behind Tzeentch is how fickle it is, and that it has a great psychological affect on your opponent. But, thats just my opinion.

Sanjuro
25-08-2005, 19:07
Last time I checked Green fire was only 9+ to cast.


All right, my mistake. That should teach me to post when not in reach of my army book. Still, the 'Become Horrors' spell is 11+ to cast, and that one is even less powerful than 'Attack yourself!' And in spite of my earlier false statement, The Comet having just one higher difficulty than Green Fire is also just plain silly in my opinion.

Again, I stress that GW wanted to keep the official rules as printed in the main rulebook - why else would they write 'Trial' over rules which could just as easily have been labelled 'Official'? I mean, isn't there even a paragraph in that particular article (about the revised lores) that basically says 'We know that Heavens is way overpowered, if you want you can use these more balanced lores that we have devised after playing the game for a couple of years and growing to hate the overpowered lores from the BRB'?

I mean, why not just make them official? I don't think anyone feels that the lores straight from the rulebook are better balanced and make for a more enjoyable game than the revised ones.

Neknoh: As for faceing 4 red fires first turn... yeah, ok, that's on average about 14 S3.5 hits. Could be less, could be more. It's still extremely less scary than what Skaven Magic can do to you, or any average gunline for that matter.


The real power if you ask my behind Tzeentch is how fickle it is, and that it has a great psychological affect on your opponent. But, thats just my opinion.

That's all fine and dandy until you play against an opponent a few times and he learns that he actually has very little to fear from the magic phase. The psychological effect is a one-trick pony.

Neknoh
25-08-2005, 19:56
Neknoh: As for faceing 4 red fires first turn... yeah, ok, that's on average about 14 S3.5 hits. Could be less, could be more. It's still extremely less scary than what Skaven Magic can do to you, or any average gunline for that matter.

Although, none of those lists has the abillity to unleash a Hellcannon on you your first turn (mind you, it was he who got the first turn, and thus, he killed off the Hellcannons crew and paniked off a huge chunk of points, resulting in my Hellcannon going nuts and eating the other half of my army)

So, Red Fire has its uses, I can vouch (sp?) for that.

And I can see situations where Purple Fire (horror maker) could be useful, for instance, blasting appart Fast Cavalry (although lesser chance of getting Horrors due to the small Unit Sizes) or stuff such as normal Skirmishers and Missile Units, especially if those units are behind the enemies lines.

Or, you can cast it to actually force an Overrun into an unwanted area (Swordsmasters with general in them exposing their flank to Chaos Knights, right after hacking at eachother as well... mmm...)

Sanjuro
25-08-2005, 20:12
Although, none of those lists has the abillity to unleash a Hellcannon on you your first turn...

Sure they have. Skaven magic missiles have quite the range - a little march move from the wizards and voila - an effective 34" range.

I can see situations where Purple Fire is useful too. However, I cannot honestly say that it deserves a higher casting value than the Comet.

EndlessBug
25-08-2005, 23:51
Slaanesh is powerful but you really won't get that many power dice.

I dont know about that, you can get 10 Power Dice in a 2k Slaanesh army, then maybe add some powerstones to completely overwhelm the opponent... the thing about some of the Slaaneshi spells is that you only need them to work once and you have messed completely with the opponents plans (Titilising Delusions (sp?) IMO is just plain SICK). you can in effect cripple a Artillery line for 1-2 turns with just this spell and maybe the other restricting one (cant recall name).

Lordmonkey
26-08-2005, 01:14
Tzeentch magic is powerful, but hard to cast and extremely unpredictable. A general of a tzzentch army will often win or lose battles based on dice rolls alone, although low-magic defence armies usually suffer horribly vs tzeentch due to the immense destructive power they can wield. I think tzeentch magic comes into it's own in the daemonic legions list, where a pure tzeentch army can be horrifyingly overwhelming in terms of magic, maneouverability, but not much else. Horrors are wimps, and their chariots are more like mobile flamethrowers than hard-hitters - if you can but survive the first few turns without being immolated in various shades of tzeentchian fire you can meet their "lines" and crush them utterly.

shadowprince
26-08-2005, 04:25
good points, Only ever played against slanesh demonic legions an evil experiance tha tis

The Black Aquila
26-08-2005, 10:36
That's all fine and dandy until you play against an opponent a few times and he learns that he actually has very little to fear from the magic phase. The psychological effect is a one-trick pony.

But that is just the point with Tzeentch magic, you cannot honestly stand there and feel confident that blue fire will not unleash a devastating volley of Str 7 Magic Missles or that Green Fire won't decimate your unit. But at the same time you yourself cannot honestly feel confident that it will produce this amazingly destructive potential it has. Thus is the fickle was of Tzeentch... I would have thought that having your opponent play you more than once would only make him realise even more how destructive it can be when it does come up. But i'm sure if you trust in yourself and Tzeentch, all will be fine, then he'll have you die in some horribly painful manner because it was part of his plan for you to die :D

Major Boothroid
26-08-2005, 13:08
I think compareing Tzeench magic to Slaanehs is a bit harsh, afterall anything seems tame after Slaanesh magic. Just because Tzeench dousnt have the best magic in the game dousnt mean its useless.

The fact that the revised lores arnt being forced on us, everyone I know, at every store, and every tornerment uses them. I personaly plan for what the majority use, not a small minority that would still use the rule book heavens.

Tzeench magic seems to be best against hord armys, as green, indigo and violet have the most effect on these. Red and blue can be good against high armour opponants but cant be relyed on to do so. Hveving said that though if your opponants letting these random spells through sooner or later the big strength hits are going to appear as the strength wont always be the average roll.

Sanjuro
26-08-2005, 13:24
But i'm sure if you trust in yourself and Tzeentch, all will be fine, then he'll have you die in some horribly painful manner because it was part of his plan for you to die :D

It sure seems that way at least... ;)

Major Boothroid: I am only comparing Tzeentch magic to Slaanesh magic because every last little piece of background material to Chaos says (and has more or less always said) that Tzeentch has the greatest power over magic of all the Chaos gods. I don't recall ever reading anywhere anything about Tzeentch magic being pathetic compared to the awesome sorcerous power and omg leet magic skillz!!11eleven11 of Slaanesh.

Now, fluff is easier to change than rules. And you also don't get the risk to screw up the game balance, so in the next incarnation of the Chaos army book I propose that Tzeentch background is changed into something more appropriate... say the god of second rate magicks, completely impotent compared to Slaanesh sorcery.

Sure, we will loose all that cool background that made us play Tzeentch in the first place (I'm not inclined to believe that anyone would play Tzeentch from a pure effectiveness perspective), but hey! At least we will play true to fluff. :rolleyes:

DisturbeD_
26-08-2005, 15:00
i have a Tzeentch deamon legion for a bit of fun riduclaly amouts of magic, oky its unpredictbale but the amout they throw out means you will get those uncommon 6 hits strenght 6 and kill a charter in one, it's a army i like to play for a bit of fun but would consider taking it to a tournament as it can seriouls back fire and do nothing

Selsaral
26-08-2005, 15:02
It sure seems that way at least... ;)

Major Boothroid: I am only comparing Tzeentch magic to Slaanesh magic because every last little piece of background material to Chaos says (and has more or less always said) that Tzeentch has the greatest power over magic of all the Chaos gods. I don't recall ever reading anywhere anything about Tzeentch magic being pathetic compared to the awesome sorcerous power and omg leet magic skillz!!11eleven11 of Slaanesh.

Now, fluff is easier to change than rules. And you also don't get the risk to screw up the game balance, so in the next incarnation of the Chaos army book I propose that Tzeentch background is changed into something more appropriate... say the god of second rate magicks, completely impotent compared to Slaanesh sorcery.

Sure, we will loose all that cool background that made us play Tzeentch in the first place (I'm not inclined to believe that anyone would play Tzeentch from a pure effectiveness perspective), but hey! At least we will play true to fluff. :rolleyes:

At the same time, we cannot forget the Staff of Change, which completely overshadows every other magic item in the book, particularly slannesh items. I assumed the fluff was representing the fact that practically every tzeentch army will have one of these damn things. Slannesh spells are superior to everything else, but the staff of change really levels the field.

I agree that Violet Fire is one of the most disappointing spells on the list. Back in previous versions and in 40k, the equivalent spell was a toughness save or die. Now it's a leadership save, with grossly tiny range and a gigantic casting value. I've played about 30 battles in 6th ed, most of them featuring tzeentch-heavy casters, and never once have I cast much less killed anyone with this spell (despite getting stuck with it several times). I'd take Red Fire over Violet Fire every single day. I whine more for the frustration purpose than anything else. I don't think Violet Fire needs to be more powerful for the sake of it, I am just annoyed that the most powerful spell on the list is the weakest.

Let's also not forget the Lore Of Tzeentch has one more spell than the other lists. That's a good thing, right?

Sanjuro
26-08-2005, 22:51
At the same time, we cannot forget the Staff of Change (...) I assumed the fluff was representing the fact that practically every tzeentch army will have one of these damn things.

Well, judging from the tone of your post, I think we both see the absurdity in this assumption. :)

One of these days, I'm gonna proxy my Tzeentchian army using Slaanesh rules. With 10 powerdice of Slaanesh spells I will finally be as dangerous in the magic phase as the background suggests. I also don't have to suffer the fact that all my marked units turn into utter cowards as soon as they start worshipping Tzeentch.

der_lex
27-08-2005, 00:10
A big plus of Tzeentch magic that I feel shouldn't be overlooked is that you don't have to waste any preciousss charcater slots on wimpy (well, for Chaos standards anyway) sorcerors and can just take nasty Champions instead...

I also feel that Tzeentch can be a very effective army indeed (and tons of fun to play), but I've already mentioned my reasons for that on the Tzeentch tactica thread...

Reinnon
28-08-2005, 13:08
i must admit, i love the lore of tzeentch when i use my deamon legion force.

why? cause its so fun to use as neither you or your opponent knows quite whats going to happen.

i personally feel that blue fire is the real gem of the list however, the possability for destruction is its best feature as either the opponent is going to use dispel dice (or even better...a scroll) on something that could do 2 strength 2 hits or let through 12 strength 7 bolts!

my 2 cents