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llama rider
09-08-2007, 01:10
i have been trying for so long to get the perfect dwarf army list, and now i think i have it. let me know what you think

LORDS AND HEROES

Dwarf Lord-dwarf handgun, shieldbearers, master rune of alaric the mad, rune of stone, master rune of spite, rune of resistance
Points:310

Thane-Battle Standard Bearer, master rune of gromril, rune of resistance, rune of fury
Points:165

Master Engineer-dwarf handgun, brace of pistols, shield.
Points:90

Runesmith-shield, master rune of balance, rune of fury
Points:145

CORE

10 WARRIORS-shields, full command
Points:115

16 longbeards-shields, full command, rune of stoicism, rune of battle
Points:285

16 longbeards-shields, full command, rune of stoicism, rune of battle
Points:285

12 thunderers-shields, veteran, standard bearer
Points:200

SPECIAL

Cannon-rune of reloading, engineer with dwarf handgun
Points:120

15 Ironbreakers-command, rune of stoicism, rune of battle
Points:175

RARE

Organ gun
Points:120

POINTS IN ARMY COMES OUT TO 2000 POINTS EXACTLY.....I THINK

let me know what you think about the army. im trying to balance out shooting and combat. my lord will go in a unit of longbeards, my runesmith will go in the unit of ironbreakers, my thane will wander around doing good deeds with his battle standard, and my master engineer will go with the cannon.

RavenBloodwind
09-08-2007, 01:42
A housekeeping issue: review the rule of pride
Your BSB and runesmith have the same weapon and all your units runic banners are identical which is not allowed.

Now to the list:

Many will say (and I tend to agree) that in a 2k game a lord is not worth the extra points compared to a thane. Your build on him is fine if you think you need him.

I also find a spellbreaker with MRoBalance a good choice.

Your infantry units are uniformly too small. I can't picture how you plan to efficiently deploy units of 16 as this will get you a 5x3 with one guy on the back or an 8x2 or something else I'm just not liking.

I'd look long and hard at finding the points to bulk up all your infantry units.

If you want to keep a unit of 10 warriors as a bait or countercharge unit that's fine, but don't give them a banner. It's tantamount to just giving your opponent 100 VPs.

The cannons rune of reloading isn't horrible but I'd be tempted to dump the crew-engineer and that rune in favor of a rune of forging.

Personally I don't care for the organ gun (new-fangled mess) but it's certainly effective in the right circumstance.

In short, I fail to see the 'perfection' you're striving for in this lists current iteration.

Making the changes I've suggested won't make it any more or less 'perfect' but will likely make it win a few more games.

HidaYaginaka
10-08-2007, 06:41
Hmm, I am either missing something or you have more Longbeards that Warriors, which is of course not allowed. You need two units of Warriors to have those two units of Longbeards you use there.

BigRob
10-08-2007, 08:14
Hello,

I think you need to describe the tactics and situation that this list is designed for, because I'm not seeing it do so well in a "standard" battle.

Its been mentioned but the two main flaws in the list are the runes and the Longbeards, both of which are illegal. You cannot have more Longbeards than warriors and you cannot have items with the same combination of runes, so all the runic banners on your regiments and your two guys with the rune of fury on thier weapons are out.
Character wise, its pretty standard but no rune of spellbreaking? Equally alot of Dwarf players will now argue that an Anvil would be required in the "perfect" list due to thier huge power.
Troops wise, the 10 warrior speedbump shouldnt have a banner and your longbeards are too small to be effective, maybe have a unit of warriors and a unit of Longbeards both at 20? The Thunderers are a stalwart choice :)
With the cannon, if your points filling with the rune of reloading (I've never seen it used) and you cant afford the reliable Forging, why not Flaming? It makes the cannon great for sniping etheral stuff and treemen/tomb kings.
Ironbreakers are great, but beware with only 15 they will attract alot of fire.
Organ gun wise, I'm not sold, the Flame Cannon is so much more powerful and a Gyrocopter is great for march blocking.

Hope this helps
Rob

silverstu
10-08-2007, 08:43
re: the extra unit of longbeards- he can since he has a lord as his general- the royal blood rule allows you to take one more unit of longbeards than you have warriors. still think the combat units are far too small.

llama rider
10-08-2007, 14:07
Hmm, I am either missing something or you have more Longbeards that Warriors, which is of course not allowed. You need two units of Warriors to have those two units of Longbeards you use there.

for all who were wondering about this, if you look at the royal blood special rule for lords, you can have 1 more unit of longbeards than you can have of warriors, explaining my 2:1 ratio.

also, i forgot about the rule where you can only have one of any rune in the army. appologies

llama rider
10-08-2007, 14:23
update on runic items

the thane drops his rune of resistance and rune of fury for the rune of luck and 2x runes of warding

the runesmith drops his rune of fury for the rune of spellbreaking

one unit of longbeards drops their rune of stoicism and their rune of battle for a rune of determination, and 3x ancestor runes

the unit of warriors drops their banner

the cannon adds a rune of forging

the ironbreakers can either have 3x runes of sanctuary or a master rune of grungni (feedback on which one)

i dont know how i would expand my longbeards, i assumed i would do 4x4 ranks, but then they would get no rank bonus, and it isnt worth it to buy more. help please

RavenBloodwind
10-08-2007, 14:57
Not sold on the updated runes. To clarify, aside from master runes you may have duplicates of other runes, you simply can't use the same combination on 2 items. One with rune of fury the other with rune of fury plus rune of anything else would be legal.

As to where to get the points: (you won't like this)
Change the lord to a thane, make one unit of longbeards into warriors (which will be necessary when you drop the royal blood character).

This will free up enough points to make all your infantry units 20 strong and ultimately improve your chances.

Personally I'd drop most of the rune banners and much of the other runic stuff to free up points. A good armor and ward save and maybe a rerollable is about all I'd spring for (along with the aforementioned MRoBalance and a spellbreaker).

thewrathchilde
11-08-2007, 03:31
llama it would be a lot easier if you could re-post the list with changes or go back and edit the original list with changes; that way we can actually look at the army as a whole to make critiques or suggestions rather than having to scroll through multiple posts and piece together what you are fielding before making a response.

Looking at the main list I have three basic comments:

1. I think you are spending too many points on characters which results in you not having enough points to properly configure your units and support choices. A lot of people have the tendency to get carried away on characters given the ability to tailor and customize dwarf characters. However, you have to remember they are only movement 3; regardless of how powerful they might be because of their movement the enemy always has the option to avoid them and pick your army apart at their discretion (MR of Challenge excepted).

2. Too few models in the army and units; looks like about 79 models total. In a dwarf army at 2000 points I don't think I would ever field below 100 models. Currently I have two main tournament list configurations- one of these is 110 models the other is around 117-120 depending on a couple of tweaks. The units are way too small to preserve any static combat resolution. Sure, you have stoicism/battle (which as someone else mentioned is illegal on multiple units...you have to have different combinations) but you aren't even starting out with three ranks for rank bonus and every model lost is -2 US (Stoicism) so even after only a few models you won't have the outnumber anymore. Drop a lot of the toys, drop a character, and put some dwarves on the board. Even the basic warrior is rock hard with good leadership and a good armor save. Generally I don't even field LBs as I can put warriors on the table for 75 pts less per unit and have the same toughness, save, and leadership.

3. Swap the Iron Breakers out for Hammerers; especially since you are fielding a Lord. The Ironbreakers are only 1 less save w/shield but are stubborn and give you the option for str 6 or str 4 with a 3+ save. Additionally with the Lord in the unit you also game immune to fear and terror which can be priceless against several armies.

Once you ahve update or re-posted the list I will give a more in detail item by item critique if you want it.

WC

llama rider
13-08-2007, 06:34
#1, no offense aimed towards thewrathchilde, but i hate hammerers with a fiery passion. dont lets delve into that one. as for the number of models in my army, i am used to fielding armies that are few in numbers. for example, i play ogre kingdoms, and i also am playing a nurgle chaos army, some tomb kings, etc. i know how to work small numbers to my advantage. im not scared of that. i agree with your comment on how many points i spend on characters, you may notice that my master engineer got of easy, and i didnt go off giving my bsb 500 points of runic standards. i am working on getting my thane down to size.

RavenBloodwind
13-08-2007, 18:11
I think being comfortable running armies with small troop numbers is okay when those troops are capable of surviving and winning.

Dwarf infantry is resilient due to its high static CR along with high toughness and good armor. That said, it is a rare day that they will win a combat based on their kills. They rely on static CR and as such, running them like you would run chaos or ogres is likely to meet with very little success.

As to not liking hammerers, you're not alone and there's little reason to worry about which specials infantry you select. Iron breakers are fine but it really is worth it to find the points to round those units up to the point they number 20 when joined by a character as a minimum.

BigRob
13-08-2007, 19:10
Ah I forgot about that pesky royal blood rule. Fair enough, 2 units of Longbeards will be excellent, but I'd still say bump them up to 20 for the rank bonus etc. Shooting will strip1-5 models usually, and everyone gets an irresistable cast sooner or later which could decimate the ranks. By the time they see combat, those units of 16 will be more like 10. My Empire amry always had state troops in units of 25, so after the usual shooting I'd still get my rank bonus.

Runewise, I always liked to over magic my characters but it can eat up those tasty points and mean less warm bodies on the pitch, but we all love shiney toys.

I look forward to seeing a new army list incorperating any changes.

Good Luck

Rob

llama rider
15-08-2007, 20:00
i am going to rewrite the army list tonight, and it will be posted by tomorrow. should i post it on this thread or make a new one?

athamas
15-08-2007, 20:02
post it in a new one...