PDA

View Full Version : Emperor's Children Discussion



Katkiller 5
09-08-2007, 10:32
All right.. want this to be a clean place for Emperor's Children/Slaanesh players to work on an army-list / alternate Slaanesh rules to those in the new Chaos Codex.

Please don't argue here.. don't rant for or against the new codex. Simply say what you think the EC should have, what we shouldn't have, etc etc.

I have a few thoughts.. Chaos Lords and maybe sorcs should get access to Doom Sirens and Combat Drugs. Terminators with Sonics back is a definite, as well as Bikes and Havocs with sonics and blastmasters.

On the blastmaster itself, do we really need AP3 and pinning? I think we could use with grabbing the pinning but dropping down to AP4, maybe a 5 or 10 pt cost boost to reflect the overall cost increases?

And Doom Siren back to it's old self definitly, not AP3 flamer, AP5 flamer with the charge into cover boost.

Not quite sure on any other specials or rules.. any ideas?

LawrencePhillips
09-08-2007, 12:54
I know alot of Choas players who have poured hours of love into giving sonic weapons to everything feel let down, but the new codex does do alot for the credibility of chaos and pose some nicely optimised lists.

For a start, Sorcorer with LoS seems a fairly evil HQ choice. I'd say taking 2 of them is un-necessary, use ther other HQ slot for a Daemon Prince. There is a discussion about using it to bunch up units for vindicator blasts and the legality of this. Personally, I think its realy use is to move a unit from cover so you can shread it with bolter/SB fire.

Noise Marines are still there, but yes the blastmaster has got alot more expensive. The blastmaster's cost is unreasonable IMO. I think an AP3 and rending together do not justify a big cost hike as almost everything in power armour has a decent LD and wont be easiy pinned. Personally I'd just take sonic blasters and leave it at that. I'd also only take 1 or 2 noise marine squads and have the rest as marked chaos, as the basic chaos marine squad is now a very good all rounder and a must have (take at least 2 always).

Daemons are weaker, but the rules have changed making them far more accurate and they don't take up FoC slots any more either. I'd take a nuit or 2 of these to sure up an assault or delay a unit a turn or two. I quite like the new spawns and will definatly be using them. A paint shceme to match and they'll fit in just fine.

Dreadnoughts are now elite, and have arather annoying rule, and can't take sonic weapons. If you really want one, just say the weapon "counts as x". I'll be leaving it at home, same with preads really. As for heavy support, a unit of havocs seam like a good idea. If you've got the LoS, then your enemy will be targetting any vindicators, so don't bother taking them, take heavy weapons on infantry as they are far more survivable. Again you can use counts as rules for sonic weapons to use existing minis.

Worsle
09-08-2007, 13:47
While I must admit you have done better with thread than most do we really need an other thread on this subject? I can tell you how it will go, we will argue no one will ever agree and we will just have people just getting worked up. Just like all the other threads we have had.

Does the blastmaster need to be ap3? Does the blastmaster need to be ap4? This seems like an odd question.

Katkiller 5
09-08-2007, 20:22
While I must admit you have done better with thread than most do we really need an other thread on this subject? I can tell you how it will go, we will argue no one will ever agree and we will just have people just getting worked up. Just like all the other threads we have had.

Well, the idea is that if we do argue here, it will at least stay on topic on hopefully we can actually work out something, this shouldn't turn into a ranting and raving thread like the others.

And on the blastmaster bit, i really don' think that it needs to be AP 3, and it's cost is insane. Drop it to... 15 pts and back to AP 4 but add the pinning (randomly does work). 20 pts if it really has to keep up with the heavy weapon price jacks (don't know how much the others are).

Occulto
10-08-2007, 02:47
First of all mate, kudos for doing this. Proactive is good! :D

However...

If the intention of this thread is to create an armylist for submission to GW, remember they're going to want consistency. Just as the IA articles used the CSM codex as a base, any WD list is going to use the current CSM codex.

Don't fiddle round with weapon stats - I reckon the surest way for it to get ignored would be to create the situation where people would get confused.

In other words.

More:
I have a few thoughts.. Chaos Lords and maybe sorcs should get access to Doom Sirens and Combat Drugs. Terminators with Sonics back is a definite, as well as Bikes and Havocs with sonics and blastmasters.

Less:
I think we could use with grabbing the pinning but dropping down to AP4,

Think about possible daemon weapons, additional unit choices, maybe some kind of daemon engine.

SamaNagol
10-08-2007, 03:11
A Legion Specific codex before end of 2010. EC deserve to be the first, they are the most unique Legion.

Lord_Crull
10-08-2007, 03:20
Blastmaster are for too expensive. That and Termie should get sonics and the MoS no some wimpy icon. Also the lords should have Doom Sirens and Combat drugs.

I'm also thinking of the Mark of Slaanesh for all of the units, not the icons. It owuld be better to see Raptors with Dooon sirens. That and getting some new deamon weapon.

vipernyc
10-08-2007, 04:25
Does GW take codex submissions? Do they even take them under advisement? (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just asking...)

MrPickles
10-08-2007, 04:34
A Legion Specific codex before end of 2010. EC deserve to be the first, they are the most unique Legion.

I seriously doubt each of the Chaos Legions will have get own codex. I would much rather have a single legions codex that has 4 pages of fluff and 4 pages of supplemental rules for each legion.

Occulto
10-08-2007, 04:48
Does GW take codex submissions? Do they even take them under advisement? (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, just asking...)

GW's aknowledged the work of non-Studio people before. The Dark Elf revision in WD mentioned Druchii.net and I think they've also credited people on Bolter & Chainsword for the Dark Angels. (Not 100% sure about the second one - it might've been Fortress of Unforgiven)

It might not be 100% copied by GW, but if they're thinking about doing Legion codices, a fan-written armylist could show that it's possible, that there's demand for it (writing an armylist shows dedication) and some suggestions might ultimately be taken on board.

Whatever the case, it's better than sitting round complaining. :D

Katkiller 5
10-08-2007, 06:05
All right, so basic ideas put down so far, and my basic take on what an EC codex in the 4th edition style would look like


All units must have the Mark of Slaanesh (except Noise marines, who come with it) at 10/5 pts each.

Psyker Powers - Wind, Doombolt, Gift, Warptime, Lash, ?
Daemon Weapon - Blissgiver (i think that's its name), ?

All 3 HQs - Can have drugs/doom siren

Elites - Chosen and Terminators gain access to sonic weaponry. Chosen at +5 points, Terminators at +3pts. Dreadnought can take blastmaster.

Troops - Noise Marines (With or without Sonics, open up non-sonic options as well), Daemonettes

Fast Attack - Open up Doom sirens to raptors, sonic blasters to bikers (+3 same as terminators), Mounted Daemonettes

Heavy Support - Pred can have a blastmaster turret, sonic sponsons, havocs can take sonic weapons.



Might have missed some stuff, please feel free to make comments and suggestions :).


Can't really think of any new daemon weapons or daemon engines.. anyone with ideas here? Also on the psyker powers, any other Slaanesh-specific ones worth adding? Like the new/old Fuelled by Pain?

vipernyc
10-08-2007, 08:52
There used to be slaaneshi demons called fiends that had some kind of cloying musk ability... cant remember exactly what it did, might have just lowered initiative like warp scream. I always thought it was a pretty cool idea.

Dark Apostle197
10-08-2007, 08:59
I think it is a fantasy thing(never heard of fiends) but something musk(forgot name) halves weaponskill.

AmKhaibitu
10-08-2007, 10:04
How about more sonic options for the armour side of things. Being able to upgrade a combi-bolter to a sonic blaster, blastmaster upgrade for the defiler and so on.

I'd be willing to pay points to be able to do thus.

Kafka
10-08-2007, 10:49
Psyker Powers - Wind, Doombolt, Gift, Warptime, Lash, ?
Daemon Weapon - Blissgiver (i think that's its name), ?


I think also bring the lash of torment daemon weapon back - +D6 attacks, can strike any model within 2" even if not in b2b.

The blissgiver is basically a tooled up version of the rod of torment - i.e. basically what it always should have been.



All 3 HQs - Can have drugs/doom siren


Lord can upgrade combi-bolter to a sonic blaster for 3 points. (Maybe 6 points, following the independant chars cost more precedent)



Elites - Chosen and Terminators gain access to sonic weaponry. Chosen at +5 points, Terminators at +3pts. Dreadnought can take blastmaster.


Chosen can upgrade a melta-gun to a blastmaster for +30 points (to keep inline with new costs), this replaces the squads heavy weapon choice.
1 Chosen Champion can take a doom siren
Terminators can upgrade a reaper autocannon to a blastmaster for +15 points or a heavy flamer to a doom siren for free. (Maybe 5 points?)
Dreadnaught can upgrade its combi-bolter to sonic blaster at +3 points, or a doom siren at +X?? points (not sure on the doom sirens new costs?)



Troops - Noise Marines (With or without Sonics, open up non-sonic options as well), Daemonettes

Fast Attack - Open up Doom sirens to raptors, sonic blasters to bikers (+3 same as terminators), Mounted Daemonettes

Heavy Support - Pred can have a blastmaster turret, sonic sponsons, havocs can take sonic weapons.


Agree on all accounts.

Additionally, I always thought the predator should be able to upgrade its sponsons to blastmasters too. However i think to do this you must upgrade the turret first, then upgrade the sponsons to blastmasters, probably at a points cost of something like 40 points (I think this would be the most expensive version of the pred, since it is very versatile (i.e. 9 Anti-I shots, or 3 Anti-T/Anti-Meq shots), I would expect total price to be something like 200 points.

dcikgyurt
10-08-2007, 11:51
All units must have the Mark of Slaanesh (except Noise marines, who come with it) at 10/5 pts each.

Psyker Powers - Wind, Doombolt, Gift, Warptime, Lash, ?
Daemon Weapon - Blissgiver (i think that's its name), ?

All 3 HQs - Can have drugs/doom siren

Elites - Chosen and Terminators gain access to sonic weaponry. Chosen at +5 points, Terminators at +3pts. Dreadnought can take blastmaster.

Troops - Noise Marines (With or without Sonics, open up non-sonic options as well), Daemonettes

Fast Attack - Open up Doom sirens to raptors, sonic blasters to bikers (+3 same as terminators), Mounted Daemonettes

Heavy Support - Pred can have a blastmaster turret, sonic sponsons, havocs can take sonic weapons.

Might have missed some stuff, please feel free to make comments and suggestions :).

Can't really think of any new daemon weapons or daemon engines.. anyone with ideas here? Also on the psyker powers, any other Slaanesh-specific ones worth adding? Like the new/old Fuelled by Pain?

Okay, try this on for size.

HQ: All options come with combat drugs, Lord and Sorcerer have access to Doom siren. MoS only. Keeper of Secrets as Greater Daemon option.

Elites: As mentioned. All come with MoS as Standard and sonic weapon options FOR ALL!!! Chosen can take Doom Sirens as special weapon options.

Troops: Noise Marines and Daemonettes. Perhaps a unit of CC Slaanesh troops with the option to take doom sirens as special weapons.

Fast Attack: As Mentioed. Comes with MoS standard.

Heavy Support: Havocs have MoS as standard, Sonic Weapon options for all. Bring back Slaanesh vehicle upgrade (name escapes me for now).

SpinO
10-08-2007, 14:35
I'd like to see a new weapon for Defilers, some kind of gigantic sonic weapon that works completely different from the good old battle cannon.

Torgo
10-08-2007, 15:30
I think it is a fantasy thing(never heard of fiends) but something musk(forgot name) halves weaponskill.

Fiends were a separate daemon type in both 40k and fantasy, up to 2nd/5th edition. They were dropped during the last daemon model update, and now only exist as a spawn type in fantasy. They look like a cross between a scorpion, a centaur and a mount of slaanesh.

malisteen
10-08-2007, 16:44
My own Thoughts:

'new' vehicle upgrade: Warp Amp: -1 leadership within 12" of vehicle, cumulative with itself to a maximum penalty of -3 leadership (so if 3 or more warp amps are within 12" of a unit, that unit has -3 leadership). cost: 20 points. Available to any vehicle.


HQ: All with MoS (ie, +1 init) standard.

Prince: no sonics (too small). Not too much different from regular codex version, but with mark of slaanesh built in. Possibly another slaaneshii psychic power option.

Lord: alternate daemon weapon option (as Kafka's), a new version of combat drugs (less effective, or more expensive then before). Options for sonic blaster or doom siren. This is the noise marine hero, if people want one.

Sorcerer: Not too different from core codex version. Focuses on psychic powers rather then noise. Maybe another new slaaneshi psychic power, but it would be very difficult to have something comperable to lash without being broken, as lash is already arguably broken.

Keeper of Secrets: Based on new daemon codex version. Until that version becomes available, it's a Generic Greater Daemon. If the new version has access to the lash, it may need to take up an HQ slot. I don't like the idea of 3 lashes in the same army.


Elites:

Terminators: Fearless and +1 init at +5 points a model, can trade combi bolters for sonic blasters at +5 points, or Reaper Autocannons for Blaster Masters at +15 points. Champion upgrade costs 10 extra points, comes with doom siren built in. One model may carry an icon (no additional benefit beyond summoning/homer) at +5 points.

Possessed: as core codex, but must take the icon of slaanesh

Chosen: Infiltrate, Fearless, and +1 Init at 22 points a model. Can upgrade bolters to sonic blasters at +5 points a model. One model may have a blaster master at the same cost as normal noise marines, or a heavy weapon at the same cost as normal chosen. Up to four models may doom sirens (+15 points) or power weapons/special weapons (at normal chosen costs). One model may be a champion at +10 points (+1 attack, no extra options). One model may carry an icon at +5 points.

Dreadnought: as new codex, but with doom siren or twin-linked sonic blaster as additional main gun arm options.


Troops:

Noise Marines (as main codex)

Chaos Space Marines (as main codex, but must take the icon of slaanesh)

Daemonettes: based on new daemon codex version. Until that version becomes available, they're generic lesser daemons. If the new codex version keeps their rending, they may need to take up troop slots, but still cannot be used to fill required slots.


Fast Attack

Noise Marine Bikes (fearless, +1 init, bike-mounted sonic blasters in place of normal upgrade uptions, champ has doom siren, + appropriate points/model)

Regular Bikes (must take the icon of slaanesh)

Regular Raptors (must take the icon of slaanesh)

Chaos Spawn (as generic codex)

Mounted Daemonettes (as new codex version. Until that version becomes available, they don't exist. May or may not take up slots, depending on points).



Heavy Support

Noise Marine Havoks: as regular noise marines except: unit size 6 - 12. Up to four may upgrade to blaster master.

Regular Havoks: must take icon of slaanesh

Defiler, Land Raider, Predator: as core codex versions.

No obliterators. No vindicator.

Grand Master Raziel
10-08-2007, 17:21
All units must have the Mark of Slaanesh (except Noise marines, who come with it) at 10/5 pts each.

[QUOTE=Katkiller 5;1819722]Psyker Powers - Wind, Doombolt, Gift, Warptime, Lash, ?
Daemon Weapon - Blissgiver (i think that's its name), ?

All 3 HQs - Can have drugs/doom siren

I'm not really keen to see Combat Drugs again. Maybe a toned-down version that doesn't stand a chance of hurting the character in question. Say, roll a d6, a 1 does nothing, 2-6 grants +1 attack.

Also, I don't think it's appropriate for Greater Daemons to get access to Combat Drugs, being made up of solidified warp energy rather than flesh and blood, after all.


Elites - Chosen and Terminators gain access to sonic weaponry. Chosen at +5 points, Terminators at +3pts. Dreadnought can take blastmaster.

I think Sonic Blasters ought to cost more for Terminators, since they can get 3 shots out of them all the time.


Troops - Noise Marines (With or without Sonics, open up non-sonic options as well), Daemonettes

I am not eager to see a potential return to Daemonbomb armies. I'd like to see the rules mechanics for Daemonic Summoning changed so it doesn't amount to "Here we are and we assault you!". Either that, or Daemonettes have to get toned down - lose Rending, say.


Fast Attack - Open up Doom sirens to raptors, sonic blasters to bikers (+3 same as terminators), Mounted Daemonettes

As with Terminators, Bikers should pay more for Sonic Blasters, as they'll always get to shoot 3 shots with them.


Heavy Support - Pred can have a blastmaster turret, sonic sponsons, havocs can take sonic weapons.


You could probably have Preds have the option of getting 2 sonic blasters per sponsons, or at least a twin-linked sonic blaster. Otherwise, why take them instead of heavy bolters?


Another thing you ought to consider is what you as EC players would be willing to give up in order to get all the neat stuff you want. If you present the idea as "We want all this stuff in addition to the Codex: Chaos Space Marines list", it's going to put a foul odor on the whole thing. On the other hand, if you include, "We're willing to give up A,B,C and X,Y, and Z", it'll seem more reasonable.

Fulgrim's Gimp
10-08-2007, 20:41
I think the basic troop and havok should only be a noise marine variant not anything with a Mark of Slaanesh. I'd lose from the list,obliterators,raptors and maybe even the vindicator and restrict or remove power armoured chosen

What about bringing some of the weirdness back from RT and having a fast attack unit of noise maines on beasts with no sonic weaponry except on the AC ? Also what about losing powerfist option on champions as it seems inelegant and unSlaaneshi ?

Katkiller 5
10-08-2007, 22:54
We would of course lose access to anything without a Mark/Icon of slaanesh. I would have to say that we lose obliterators as well, as with a return of sonic havocs, they aren't really needed and they give us too many options in what should be a more limited style list.

The loss of the power fist would hurt, but i could definitely see that argument, it is a very inelegant weapon for Slaanesh to be using in CC. Sabers and whips seem more our style.


I'm not really keen to see Combat Drugs again. Maybe a toned-down version that doesn't stand a chance of hurting the character in question. Say, roll a d6, a 1 does nothing, 2-6 grants +1 attack.

Also, I don't think it's appropriate for Greater Daemons to get access to Combat Drugs, being made up of solidified warp energy rather than flesh and blood, after all.

Meant the Prince/Lord/Sorcerer would have those options. And I would vote for keeping them as they are in the current codex, maybe removing an option or two (like add an extra dice to cover charge, don't really need +1 WS with the lord's base 6 now) but keeping the rules the same. Could get some incredible bonuses, but the risk was there to stop you from using three every turn constantly (i usually use 1 or 2).


I think also bring the lash of torment daemon weapon back - +D6 attacks, can strike any model within 2" even if not in b2b.

Bringing back the Lash of Torment sounds good, probably drop it's -1 leadership modifier because of the D6 attacks.

Looks like we're getting plenty of ideas :) I'll compile it all tonight.

malisteen
10-08-2007, 23:23
I think the basic troop and havok should only be a noise marine variant not anything with a Mark of Slaanesh.

I dissagree. Why make the list noise marines only? Why even make it 'codex: emperor's children'? Let's make it Codex: Slaaneshii Marines, and include options for either an all noise marine force supported by slaaneshii daemons or a regular all slaaneshii marine force led by elite noise marines and supported by slaaneshi daemons.

Let's not over-restrict ourselves. If we're going to remove two heavy support choices (vind & oblits) I see nothing wrong with having two havok options (regular slaanesh & noise marine). Likewise I don't see anything wrong with having two bike squad options (noise & otherwise), or keeping regular slaanesh icon toting raptors & CSMs in the list.

Possessed have no ranged weapons anyway, I don't see any point to doing a noise version. Chosen & Terminators can be done with both options, and don't seem as out of place becoming randomly fearless.


I'd rather not have the core codex have slaaneshii options that the slaaneshii army can't take.

Grand Master Raziel
11-08-2007, 06:47
I Also what about losing powerfist option on champions as it seems inelegant and unSlaaneshi ?

I dunno man. Squads without power fists are boned if they run into something like a Dreadnought or a MC. If you lose the fist, you'd have to replace it with something comparable - maybe something that gives the Ass Champ Rending. Call it a Whip of Slaanesh or something.


Possessed have no ranged weapons anyway, I don't see any point to doing a noise version.

Maybe not, but you could make a case for Possessed that have a more Slaaneshi-oriented range of powers. In the process, maybe the power table could be made to suck less. Or, Slaaneshi-Possessed could simply have X power all the time, because they're possessed by Slaaneshi daemons.

Fulgrim's Gimp
11-08-2007, 08:45
I agree Grand Master Raziel, power fists should be replaced by something else,but, we have to avoid the trap of replacing it with something better. We still have termies with powerfists and depending on what daemonettes are maybe them to deal with dreads so maybe a glaring weakness in how noise marines deal with them wouldn't be so bad.

Katkiller 5
11-08-2007, 19:47
So should aspiring champions be able to access demonic talons instead of powerfists? Different but not better?

Lord Inquisitor
11-08-2007, 20:15
Okay, I'll bite here.

Firstly, I agree - use the new Codex Chaos as the basis. Stick with existing costs, weapon profiles, etc. Keep it simple, keep it with the path of least resistence if you intend to send this to GW.

- Noise Marine Havocs. As Noise Marines, but allowed to have up to 4 Blastmasters. Easy. (The Noise Marines obviously already pay "premium" costs for Blastmasters so I see no need to further increase the cost of Blastmasters.)

- Icons. Since everything in the army is going to be Marked by Slaanesh, I think we can use the same system as the Noise Marines (i.e., have the Mark of Slaanesh "built in" and not something that is dependent on the Icon).

- Fearless? All infantry Fearless or not? That's a big choice. Personally, I'm inclined to say yes - that's what the Mark of Slaanesh should provide - but I also know that people don't like all-Fearless armies.

- Daemons - replacing generic daemons with Daemonettes and Keepers seems obvious. An exercise in second-guessing without knowing anything about the new rules in the new Daemon Codex...

- Possessed. Simply giving the Slaaneshi possessed Daemonic Talons (well, that's what I always gave them with the old codex anyway!) represents marines possessed by daemonettes best, methinks, but I'm not sure we should stray from the randomness.

- What about Raptors and Obliterators? Are we cutting them out again?

- Combat Drugs. We obviously need them, but the rules were perhaps a little convoluted. Any ideas for daemon-weapon-style ultra-simple drug rules?

- Vindicator: should this be an option for the Emperor's Children? (Since we're giving them new toys for vehicles - blastmasters for predators, etc - should we remove an option?)

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

malisteen
11-08-2007, 20:39
- Noise Marine Havocs. As Noise Marines, but allowed to have up to 4 Blastmasters. Easy. (The Noise Marines obviously already pay "premium" costs for Blastmasters so I see no need to further increase the cost of Blastmasters.)

Sounds good to me, but I'd like to keep regular slaaneshi-marked havoks as an option for those who wish to to have a wider range of units or heavy weapons.


- Icons. Since everything in the army is going to be Marked by Slaanesh, I think we can use the same system as the Noise Marines (i.e., have the Mark of Slaanesh "built in" and not something that is dependent on the Icon).


- Fearless? All infantry Fearless or not? That's a big choice. Personally, I'm inclined to say yes - that's what the Mark of Slaanesh should provide - but I also know that people don't like all-Fearless armies.

I would make terminators, chosen, noise marines, noise marine bikes, and noise marine havoks fearless, but keep non-fearless regular slaaneshi Chaos Space Marines, bikes, raptors, and havoks as options. Possessed and characters are already fearless.


- Daemons - replacing generic daemons with Daemonettes and Keepers seems obvious. An exercise in second-guessing without knowing anything about the new rules in the new Daemon Codex...

It's obvious, and yet it isn't. We don't know what daemonettes and keepers will look like under the new codex. Will they keep rending, or have the daemonbomb terror armies caused GW to reconsider rending daemonettes? If they do keep rending, then they're probably too good to let them not take up troop slots. Since we don't know the first thing about new daemonettes, I would leave them as generic daemons temporarily.

Same with the keeper. We have no idea what it will look like, the generic greater isn't that far off base, so I say stick with the generic until we can actually see what the new keeper looks like, rather then basing it on an old unit that we know is outdated. Also, if it has access to the lash it may need to take up an HQ slot. I don't like the idea of three lash armies.


- Possessed. Simply giving the Slaaneshi possessed Daemonic Talons (well, that's what I always gave them with the old codex anyway!) represents marines possessed by daemonettes best, methinks, but I'm not sure we should stray from the randomness.

1) this should be about making the slaaneshii version of the new codex, not about rewriting the codex as it is. IMO, that includes keeping the possessed table as is. I'm against any attempt to 'fix' the possessed, either by giving them just rending (which we aren't even sure daemonettes will have in the new book) or by giving them a better 'slaaneshii themed' list. Stat them with the icon of slaanesh built in, and leave them be. They're already fearless, +1 init is slaaneshii enough.


- What about Raptors and Obliterators? Are we cutting them out again?

Obliterators can't be slaaneshii in the new book, so I'd say they're out (replaced in their slot by noise marine havoks). Raptors can be slaaneshii aligned, so I'd give them the mark of slaanesh built in and allow them. I wouldn't do 'noise marine' versions, though. No fearless, no noise weaponry.


- Combat Drugs. We obviously need them, but the rules were perhaps a little convoluted. Any ideas for daemon-weapon-style ultra-simple drug rules?

We don't obviously need them - our heroes are pretty good already, and I'm not sure I like the idea of slaaneshii heroes with as many attacks as khornate heroes, or the idea of S5 blissgivers. No, we don't need them at all. If they are included, they should be made more simplistic, maybe +1 strength, -2 weapon skill for one assault per game? maybe a 6+ FNP a la bionics? I don't know. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to just drop them.


- Vindicator: should this be an option for the Emperor's Children? (Since we're giving them new toys for vehicles - blastmasters for predators, etc - should we remove an option?)

I'd be inclined to drop it. It was included in the main book to passify/enable iron warriors players, which EC aren't.


For power fists: I'm opposed to dropping or replacing the option. They're an important upgrade, and worth it even for I5 champions. I wouldn't reduce the cost either. If people want an alternative, they already have one - regular power weapons. I just see no reason to mess with it.

On the subject of icons - I like all non-noise units having the icons built in, based on the cost of the icon for the unit in the core book, probably assuming units of 10 (possibly 5 for terminators, if their icons are noticeably less expensive). IE, if icon of slaanesh costs 20 points for CSMs, then Slaaneshii chaos space marines in the EC codex would cost 2 points extra per model, and have the +1 Init built in.

Some option for plain icons to use for summoning should still be added to those units, however.

Lord Inquisitor
11-08-2007, 21:02
Sounds good to me, but I'd like to keep regular slaaneshi-marked havoks as an option for those who wish to to have a wider range of units or heavy weapons.

Okay, this is a fairly formulative point.

There are two ways forward here: with regard to Noise Marine Bikers, Terminators and Havocs (i.e. cult troops), are these NEW units, fashioned after the Noise Marines? This would seem to be the most sensible thing. That way, they are Fearless, they have the Mark of Slaanesh built in, they can ONLY take Noise Marine-type upgrades.

So: you can take Havocs with the Mark of Slaanesh (which can have the usual options) or you can take Noise Marine Havocs (which can only have Blastmasters, but are Fearless).

However, note that this is going to produce a very large number of units, since you're going to have 2 Chosen entries, 2 Havoc entries, etc.

Alternatively, the existing units can be modified so that they can be upgraded to noise marines, which in turn modifies their options. This isn't great because it will produce very complicated unit entries, which we want to avoid.

Thirdly, the squads can simply be designed so that all of the options are there. Problem with this is that it could lead to all sorts of min-maxing balance problems with e.g. mixing noise marine weaponry with normal havoc gear.

Finally, we could simply bite the bullet and say THIS list is for the hard-core Noise Marines. So the only option is a Noise Marine Havoc squad. After all, aren't we all defined as the players who have extensively-converted Noise Marine armies? So: if you want Slaaneshi Havocs with lascannons, use the normal list. If you want Noise Marine Havocs, use this list.

Of all the options, the one that is most parsimonious and streamlined is the fourth option - make all units cult units. So only Noise Marine Havocs.


It's obvious, and yet it isn't. We don't know what daemonettes and keepers will look like under the new codex. Will they keep rending, or have the daemonbomb terror armies caused GW to reconsider rending daemonettes? If they do keep rending, then they're probably too good to let them not take up troop slots. Since we don't know the first thing about new daemonettes, I would leave them as generic daemons temporarily.
Agreed.


1) this should be about making the slaaneshii version of the new codex, not about rewriting the codex as it is.
Yes and no. We should make this a self-contained codex, in the same manner as the Blood Angel WD-dex. With new units, but as closely modelled on the new Chaos dex as possible.


IMO, that includes keeping the possessed table as is. I'm against any attempt to 'fix' the possessed, either by giving them just rending (which we aren't even sure daemonettes will have in the new book) or by giving them a better 'slaaneshii themed' list. Stat them with the icon of slaanesh built in, and leave them be. They're already fearless, +1 init is slaaneshii enough.
Fair enough. I wasn't actually thinking of "fixing" the possessed - I actually don't have too much issue with the new possessed - but purely in terms of theming them.


Obliterators can't be slaaneshii in the new book, so I'd say they're out (replaced in their slot by noise marine havoks). Raptors can be slaaneshii aligned, so I'd give them the mark of slaanesh built in and allow them. I wouldn't do 'noise marine' versions, though. No fearless, no noise weaponry.
Fair enough on the Oblits. Not sure about the Raptors - I think they should either have the Mark of Slaanesh proper, or be out.


We don't obviously need them - our heroes are pretty good already, and I'm not sure I like the idea of slaaneshii heroes with as many attacks as khornate heroes, or the idea of S5 blissgivers. No, we don't need them at all. If they are included, they should be made more simplistic, maybe +1 strength, -2 weapon skill for one assault per game? maybe a 6+ FNP a la bionics? I don't know. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to just drop them.
I meant we needed it as perhaps the single most iconic piece of wargear. Actually, you might be onto something - how about simply giving the user FNP?


For power fists: I'm opposed to dropping or replacing the option. They're an important upgrade, and worth it even for I5 champions. I wouldn't reduce the cost either. If people want an alternative, they already have one - regular power weapons. I just see no reason to mess with it.
Agreed, I've got some ACs with power fists. No need to muck with that.


Some option for plain icons to use for summoning should still be added to those units, however.
All units should get an Icon of Slaanesh for free in that case (pretty much as it is now!)

Katkiller 5
12-08-2007, 02:14
Finally, we could simply bite the bullet and say THIS list is for the hard-core Noise Marines. So the only option is a Noise Marine Havoc squad. After all, aren't we all defined as the players who have extensively-converted Noise Marine armies? So: if you want Slaaneshi Havocs with lascannons, use the normal list. If you want Noise Marine Havocs, use this list.

Of all the options, the one that is most parsimonious and streamlined is the fourth option - make all units cult units. So only Noise Marine Havocs.

I agree with this point. If you want to play a icon force, you can use the new codex. If you want to play a full Noise-Marine / Emperor's Children force, this would be the rules-set that you would use.

Combat drugs, although I like the numerous current upgrades, the FNP idea also sounds pretty good, it fairly well represents someone who is so high on the drugs that he doesn't even notice the pain.


On those notes, re-compiled:

HQ - Sorcerer, Demon Prince, Chaos Lord (All fearless, options for Doom Siren, Combat Drugs), Generic Greater Demon (as codex)
Elites - Terminators, Chosen, Possessed, Dreadnought (Termies, Chosen, Possessed at +1 I, Fearless, Termies + Chosen have access to Sonic weapons. Dreadnought can take a Blastmaster and/or upgrade one arm to have a Doom Siren).
Troops - Noise Marines (with or without sonics), Generic Lesser Daemons
Fast Attack - Noise Bikers (with or without sonics, fearless), Raptors(?)
Heavy Support - Noise Havocs (sonics, fearless, etc), Predator (1 to 3 blastmasters, but very expensive, sonic sponsons), Defiler (doom siren?)

Combat Drugs - Give Feel No Pain
Lash of Torment - Demon Weapon, can make attacks as with the current Lash rules. +D6 attacks, power weapon as normal daemon weapon.

Anything that i missed or anything that people don't like?

gruubii
12-08-2007, 03:00
As for me I would be happy with bolter for sonic blaster, daemonettes, and mounted daemonettes, and sonics for my dreadnought, I was happy having warp amp's all over the place and minuses to Ld gear all over the place. Cause to me the +1 int does'nt mean much for a mark. Also daemonic claws yes please.

malisteen
12-08-2007, 03:28
I'm opposed to the idea that Emperors Children = All Noise Marines All The Time. I like moving away from that, and having the option of a heavily or less heavily cult oriented army that is still dedicated to one power and has cult specialists.

I think we should include the options, and leave the choice between them up to individual players writing individual lists. You don't end up with a ton more units anyway.

Terminators and Chosen are pretty easy to do with noise or non-noise options in the same entry.

The army would add the following units: Noise Bikes, Noise Havoks, mounted daemonettes

And Drop the Following units: Thousand Sons, Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Obliterators, Vindicators.

You still end up with fewer units then you had before. I still say the list should be:

Prince (no noise weapons, possibly a noise themed slaaneshii psychic power)
Lord (options for noise weapons & alternate daemon weapon)
Sorcerer (no noise weapons, possibly a noise themed slaaneshii psychic power
Keeper (based on 2008 daemon codex)

Terminators (fearless, with noise upgrades added to regular upgrade options)
Chosen (fearless, with noise upgrades added to regular upgrade options)
Possessed (unchanged)
Dreadnought (noise option)

Noise Marines
Chaos Marines (not fearless, no noise options except maybe on champion)
Daemonettes (based on 2008 daemon codex)

Noise Bikes (new unit based more on NM then bikes)
Chaos Bikes (not fearless, no noise options)
Raptors (not fearless, no noise options)
Spawn

Noise Havoks
Chaos Havoks (not fearless, no noise)
Predator (noise options)
Land Raider (completely unchanged apart from warp amp option)
Defiler (unchanged apart from warp amp option)

*note that all units have the mark of slaanesh (ie, +1 init) built into their profiles.

Also, the list may possibly incorporate some more of the slaaneshii daemon options from the 2008 codex (perhaps mounted daemonettes, fiends, or whatever new they introduce)


I think the option for an all noise army should be there, but I think this should be Codex: Slaanesh first, with all noise as one option rather then the only option.

Lord_Crull
12-08-2007, 03:43
The sorcerer should get a doom siren at least.

The only thing I disagree with is that the DB already have Feel no Pain. So ehter we return to a watered down version of the last codex's combat drugs or we do something else.

malisteen
12-08-2007, 04:10
I don't want combat drugs to give Slaaneshii characters one of the other god's marks (so no +1 attack) or cult abilities (so no furious charge or feel no pain). I'm not sure how much that really leaves.

DhaosAndy
12-08-2007, 04:17
malisteen: "I'm opposed to the idea that Emperors Children = All Noise Marines All The Time. I like moving away from that, and having the option of a heavily or less heavily cult oriented army that is still dedicated to one power and has cult specialists."

I think perhaps you want too much, all EC's are noise marines and an EC specific list should be about noise marines (including bikes, terminators, etc) and Slaaneshii daemons, not marked CSM's, etc. Which are properly the province of the main list.

malisteen
12-08-2007, 04:48
I just think the idea of marked units led by cult terminators and characters makes sense as an army and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. I also fear that you're restricting the army too much and sacrificing viability in the name of dubious fluff from 3.5.

An army that only has access to blaster masters as heavy weaponry apart from vehicles, and that only has access to bikes and daemonic beasts as fast (especially considering that those beasts may be headed to nerfdown already), just doesn't have enough options to justify a list on its own.

And how is it asking too much, when it still adds less choices, and less quality choices (from a powergaming perspective) then it removes.


I'm not saying the all cult army shouldn't be an option. I just don't see why it has to be the only option. The 4.5 Emperor's Children list was a subcodex to represent one specific group. I'd like to see it expanded into a full codex representing the full wealth of slaaneshii marine options. If not, what's the point? Sure, it lets you use your blaster master terminators again, but it's a waste of a real opportunity that could see cult lists as something expansive rather then tiny and obscure. I'd also rather not have people look at the slaaneshii codex and say "wow. eight kinds of noise marines. how dull. I want my army to show the variety of slaanesh, so I'm going to use the generic codex." this should be The codex for fully slaanesh dedicated chaos space marine armies. Noise-only runs a serious risk of being the lesser option for Slaaneshii devotees, both in terms of variety and power. That's a sure-fire path to obscurity, and one guaranteed to result in the dropping of cult armies without apology or hope of redress in 5th edition. I can see it now: "We printed cult armies in white dwarf. We even listened to fan suggestions for what they should include. But they were so narrow that hardly anybody used them. Instead everyone preferred the core list as it offered more options even for purely dedicated forces."


My way still has the all noise option for Emperor's Children purists, but also includes the possibility of slaaneshii renegades or recruits serving Legion overseers for those who prefer. It feels more like a full codex because it has more options (though still less then the core chaos book), and allows the players to personalize their army and its place in the universe. And it costs the EC purist nothing, because all their options are still there.

DhaosAndy
12-08-2007, 04:55
malisteen: "I'm not saying the all cult army shouldn't be an option. I just don't see why it has to be the only option."

:confused: I'm not trying to be funny here but, am I missing something, why would a cult army not be the only option in a cult list?

All EC's are noise marines, a CSM who is not a noise marine cannot be EC. By which I mean that it should be codex EC not codex slaaneshii marked CSM's.

malisteen
12-08-2007, 05:08
Eh, if I'm in the minority I'll back down. I just see 'all noise all the time only, and nothing that wasn't in the 3.5 emperor's children list' as a waste of a chance to make Slaaneshii lists and Emperor's Children something more then the pidgeonholed chorus-liners that they were in 3.5.

The designers notes talked about how cult armies (by which I mean armies fully dedicated to a single power, not an army of only cult units) were too narrow, and saving them for separate lists provided the opportunity to give them the attention they deserved. I think that by turning this into Codex: EC 3.5 (with 4.0 stats) you're squandering that opportunity.

Maybe bringing in the full options of slaanesh in the core book isn't the way to go, but just tacking 'noise' to the front of every unit doesn't seem right at all.

Katkiller 5
12-08-2007, 08:38
Eh, if I'm in the minority I'll back down. I just see 'all noise all the time only, and nothing that wasn't in the 3.5 emperor's children list' as a waste of a chance to make Slaaneshii lists and Emperor's Children something more then the pidgeonholed chorus-liners that they were in 3.5.

The designers notes talked about how cult armies (by which I mean armies fully dedicated to a single power, not an army of only cult units) were too narrow, and saving them for separate lists provided the opportunity to give them the attention they deserved. I think that by turning this into Codex: EC 3.5 (with 4.0 stats) you're squandering that opportunity.

Maybe bringing in the full options of slaanesh in the core book isn't the way to go, but just tacking 'noise' to the front of every unit doesn't seem right at all.

I agree, but the issue is, I also do think that any of the non-Noise Emperor's Children should be fearless. Anyone who is truly of that legion should be fearless after 10 thousand years of war and debauchery. I'm all for giving everyone the Mark of Slaanesh and still keeping the weapon options open like 3.5 codex.

That is what i would prefer anyways. And Combat drugs.. i really do think we need it or some other piece of Slaaneshi-Wargear. The Drugs just seemed like a good option.

AmKhaibitu
12-08-2007, 09:41
With the dreadnought options we really should support what forgeworld produce.
Along with all the other weapon options, a twin-linked sonic blaster was created.
It is nice to give the option for those people who have it to use it :D

Xandros
12-08-2007, 14:07
I could see either way. On one side, noise marines are elitist like no one else and would not mingle with lesser warriors, and then a warband might also have an entourage of wannabe noise marines. But such isn't the province of an Emperor's Children list which is emphatically for those that desire to style their armies not least of all in terms of rule. Lesser devotees can easily be included, being little different from noise marines, if only to fill a yawning gap, like dedicated firesupport as is lacking in the likes of World Eater warbands - Fulgrim's lot might be no different. In any event, units that are not noise marines should not by any means be allowed to wield sonic weaponry.

I'm not sure what bearing bike-mounted sonic blasters would have on gameplay. They would be more powerful at range than any other bikes. Which is kind of like noise terminators, so it might not be a crime. The all-noise army seems like a good idea, but some anti-tank needs to be included. A noise havoc squad would seem obvious, but the large squads favoured by havoc setups would be unfitting for noise marines.

What else? Daemons. I think here a reimaginings of daemonettes and keeper would be in order. Current statline is fine for daemonettes but only in so far as their appearance isn't changed overmuch by new models. I entertain the notion that a modified siren could be interesting, allowing the daemonettes to cross the battlefield safely, which they'd likely need, being summoned from noise marine squads at range.

Keeper of Secrets... that I know little about, but it'll need something to make up for lack of mobility, not to mention the sacrifice of a noise champion.

malisteen
12-08-2007, 15:09
For consistency's sake, I say the daemons should be the same as in the 2008 codex: daemons. That's not out yet, so I would leave them as the generics till then.

Also, some people's visions of the emperor's children have them depleted after 10,000 years of war. After all, their fluff since their inception has had them shattered. Some people's vision of the EC would be veteren noise marines leading an army of more recent recruits (slaaneshii renegades, bile-made marines, etc). It may not be everyone's interpretation of the legion, but I don't think it's one that should be dismissed out of hand.

So, in my mind, non-noise units shouldn't have noise weaponry (unless we're imagining that their champions are noise), but if they aren't noise, they shouldn't be fearless. Chosen and terminators in the main book are mostly there to represent vets, and they're not fearless. I don't think being a 10,000 year vet makes you fearless. Being a noise marine makes you fearless, sure, but if we decide to include slaaneshii raptors, for instance, then they aren't noise and thus aren't fearless.

I know the MoS used to mean fearless, but it just doesn't anymore.

Lord Inquisitor
12-08-2007, 15:51
With regard to Noise Marine vs. normal Slaanesh Marines.

Firstly, here's something you might want to have a look at, which is the Epic Emperor's Children list (http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/Emperors_Children_v2.pdf). This was based in part on the old Chaos Codex and in part on the background material (Index Astartes, etc). It's still in development, and doesn't have many nice pictures or fluff yet. It may be relevant in terms of at least one perspective on the Emperor's Children.

Yes, not all Emperor's Children are Noise Marines. However, I think this list should concentrate on the Noise Marine aspect. This is a decision I wrestled with when making the Epic list - what proportion of the army should be Noise Marines? Certainly some people wanted much less Noise Marine-heavy troops.

In the end, I decided to plump for a largely Noise Marine army. Why? Because what I wanted was an army list with its own distinctive feel that was substantially different from the parent Black Legion list. I think we're in the same situation. While Emperor's Children warbands certainly exist that aren't debased to the point of being Noise Marines, this list should concentrate on Noise Marine warbands, in order to differentiate the list significantly from the parent list.

So I would recommend:

- All units have only Noise Marine options. They should of course still come with bolters/combi-bolters as standard, but upgrades should be as per Noise Marines
- One exception: a Troops or Elites choice "Emperor's Children Legionnaires", which have normal CSM or Veteran options (but may take a heavy weapon - premium cost - no matter the squad size to allow for six-strong squads).

Katkiller 5
13-08-2007, 19:18
Another question, do we limit ourselves to 6/12/18 man squads, and do we recieve free ACs?

Lord Inquisitor
13-08-2007, 19:47
I don't think so. Make the squad sizes as per normal. I don't think we need to penalise people for deviating from the favoured squad sizes, and giving free ACs is going to (justifiably) give rise to complaints of imbalance due to getting stuff for free.

However, we could conceivably make the minimum squad size 6 for infantry...

DhaosAndy
14-08-2007, 02:36
Personally I'd argue against free AC's and for 6 or multiples thereof for squad sizes

Lord_Crull
19-08-2007, 23:11
I've started a thread to bring back cult legions.

I think this ties in with bringing back the EC cult rules.

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99171

I'm asking for your're help

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2007, 00:14
Not all of the Emperor's Childrens have become Noise Marines.
Some of them still fight with the traditional weaponary of the Chaos Space Marines legion

Valid fluff, now, in the past and in future. Any one argue ?


and malisteen is right - not mark of slaanesh make you fearless.

10k old veteran have best leadership in the game - 10

Vineas
20-08-2007, 03:40
Wow,

I must say that this is a thread worthy of following. I may not agree that EC's lost all that much (and please don't tell me otherwise, i've followed every thread on the subject) it's nice to see people calmly and rationally trying to fix what they feel is wrong instead of whining about it page after page after page. Now if only other cult players would do the same.

I for one would buy this codex if it ever came to fruitition or at the very least a WD that this my appear in. It sounds like you guys/girls are making a good effort to fix what you feel is wrong. As of right now I don't see anything you guys are proposing to be out of place. I do agree though that both non-noise and Noise options should be included in the list but with the NM's being the only ones getting sonics and having fearless. LD 10 is fairly high afterall and not many people relish the idea of yet ANOTHER fearless armylist/army to pop up (Deathwing not counting as its low numbers means it still hurts to lose guys, even moreso through the No Retreat rule which is really harsh on DW).

Not sure if I can add anything. I think someone mentioned a new Slaanesh psyker power. How bout something like this: Seduction, 18" range...sorcerer makes ld test as normal, if passed the power allows you to pick any one unit in range and LOS. The target unit makes a ld test at -1, -2 if the sorcerer is also a dp (to show its greater mastery over the mortal mind compared to a mortal sorcerer). If passed the target unit is not effected, if failed the unit is automatically pinned in place for one turn, Vehicles and vehicular units count as being stunned for a turn as their drivers/gunners are overcome by the seductive power of Slaanesh. All the usual rules for being pinned as per the BGB apply to the unit. Models/units which normally cannot be pinned are immune to Seduction.

I got the idea from the Succubus demon that Warlocks can summon in WoW (yeah, im one of those types of nerds too). She basically does the same thing that power would do, enemies just stand and do nothing for a certain length of time.

qwertywraith
20-08-2007, 16:04
Great thread and work so far. I'm old(er) school regarding EC fluff, and as such the Noise Marines were only a small portion of the EC legion (there is even a line to this effect in the new codex, see the colour section).

You should take this discussion to emperorschildren.net.