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gerrymander61
10-08-2007, 04:42
One thing I really want to see in the new army books are some really cool alternative army lists. Not just boring stuff like, you know, one army list for each clan in skaven, or like, one per bloodline for VC. But like, including the SoC lists at the end of each armybook or having cool campaign lists like the Red Host for the lizardmen would be awesome.

I was just glancing through the army books and thought "sheesh, some of these are really boring... or jsut plain bad"

Finnigan2004
10-08-2007, 18:46
I tend to agree with you because I love alternative armies, but there are a couple of major roadblocks to coming up with alternate lists again. The first of the problems is that there is a large number of players who will rail against such lists because they think that they can not properly balanced-- sometimes with some validity (in my experience, they follow this up by plunking down twenty pegasus knights or a SAD, but that's another thread). This is a problem because when an army list is not canon, there are a large number of players who will not play against it, which leads to problem two...

Problem two is that GW has burned some of us who converted SOC lists because we went to great time and expense converting up armies for them based on the promise that they were totally official. Games Workshop then yanked the rug out and made them unofficial or semi unofficial depending on your locality. This means again that many people will refuse to play them, and that they are not useable in most tournaments. Speaking as a person who has a 6000 pt. daemonic legion (that's a lot of metal, which means a lot of $-- not to mention time spent painting and converting) and some very expensive forge world rhinox riders, I will not make or buy models for "fringe lists" again because there is a good chance that I won't be able to use them much of the time.

Now, before the debate starts, I think I should debunk some of the inevitable arguments that others will raise about the points above. First off, I know that I can use my bloodcrushers to proxy dragon ogres-- it would be great if I did not already have dragon ogres. The bottom line is that if I wanted dragon ogres, that is what I would have bought (cheaper and less work modelling them too). I make and paint my models so that I can play with them-- bottom line.

Second, I also know that tournaments are not the be all and end all, but when I spend $300 on rhinox riders, I want to know that I will be able to use them. If there is a problem, rules need to be revised, but making the rules unofficial is not acceptable in my opinion. They have to power to do so, but I have to power not to buy things that are not enshrined in an official army book.

For these reasons, while I like your idea for new army books with strange ideas, I will not be converting or buying models that are used in these lists. I also think that a large portion of the people who like the "more adventurous" lists (but who have gotten burned before) will probably not support it with their wallets. Unfortunately, the past record of GW with such programs probably dooms the idea to failure :(.

Kerill
10-08-2007, 19:47
Aren't Rhinox riders still official?

Fringe lists are great but the bigger things in those lists its always worth finding a cheaper way to build. The clan moulder list for example- guaranteed to get shafted at some point but you could make/convert the models quite easily and a lot cheaper.

I think the Rhinox will enter chronicles as an official thing at some point since without them OK are a subpar army in terms of power and will be even more so when the other armies get their books (since power creep seems to be back with a vengeance).

I think the playtesting they do really is insufficient- pegasus army being an obvious one, SAD now much less of an issue with the new targetting rules. Sometimes I don't know what they are thinking, 3-4 days on this forum for a new armybook and all the best combos and exploits will have been found. Why can't they find them in "months" of testing?

Daemonic legions will be back in some form I'm sure. I felt burned when they changed the rules for horrors and made them a load of crap (I've got 60- 20 pink, 40 blue with command groups), then daemonic legions makes them useful again, now they are half official but will be back at some point.

Playing Chaos or allowing DOW can do a lot to prevent getting burned- even if the unit disappears there is a DOW unit somewhere you can count as, and for chaos its soooo much easier.

Finnigan2004
11-08-2007, 00:14
Rhinox riders are one of those "semi official" units where I live. In Canada, I think that they are still legal in most hall of heroes events (could be wrong), but are not allowed in some tournaments. I know that elsewhere they have been banned from GW events (at least, if what they say on ogre stronghold was accurate). It's this sort of thing that makes me really relucant to buy the stuff that comes out in these books. Rest assured, I'll be waiting to buy any "super heavies" that come out in Armageddon for 40K (although I'm sure I'll be tempted).

JackBurton01
11-08-2007, 04:20
I really like the SOC lists and i thought they added alot to the campaign.

ehlijen
11-08-2007, 06:27
SOC was nice in concept, but very poorly thought out in the end. I think most if not all of the lists in there were hirribly unbalanced against at least some of the basic lists.
I'm glad they removed such lists from the tournament fields, but I'm sad that it was neccessary to do that. Such armies should be designed to be underpowered, just to err on the safe side.
But eventually, this is a hobby about fun games and conversions, evreything should be ok, as long as you keep your opponents fun in mind too.

Gabacho Mk.II
11-08-2007, 06:32
The best way to field these so termed fringe lists is to do so in a small campaign in/with your local gaming group. There is just no need to be awaiting the next sanctioned GW convention, when you see your friends on many more occasions than you do GW conventions and the like.

IMO, go and push your gaming buddies to field their 'exotic' lists (I include home brewed lists in this too), and play out a mini-campaign that will commonly take no more than a few months to game out.

Finnigan2004
11-08-2007, 14:56
Of course, one can field Storm of Chaos armies with their friends. However, from GW's point of view, the reason to create such lists is to sell models. The problem that they have created in this case is as noted above-- no one trusts them enough anymore to invest huge amounts of time and money in a list that can only be used sometimes. They've burned people time and again with things like the Storm of Chaos, Rhinox Riders, undead pirates, etc..

They would be far wiser from a business standpoint to do something to balance unbalanced lists through a revision or FAQ, rather than banning them ( as an aside, while I hear a lot about lack of balance in the SOC lists whenever this comes up, the most unbalanced lists in the game come straight out of army books so I'm not sure how much merit the "unbalanced" argument has). If they simply changed the lists instead of banning them, people might be inclined to purchase their new and gimmicky lists (far better for business in the long run). While they were fixing the SOC lists, they could also change the SADs, flying circuses, gunlines, walking tree armies, etc.. This would be all around better for the game and more importantly, for business, if they want to sell models through the creation of new lists or units in White Dwarf, etc..