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Grand Warlord
10-08-2007, 04:53
OK, i am back from a roughly 1 year break from all things GW, and I was looking threw the Empire book and I was wondering, is Volkmar worth it?

I think he seems nasty but isnt a chariot cannon fodder pretty much?

Von Wibble
10-08-2007, 09:48
Well, only 2 armies have cannon, and the cannon is the only S7+ shooting weapon with reliable chances of hitting (OK, and dwarf bolt throwers, but they get cannon...). Unless you count mercs and hellcannon of course...

My tactics with volkmar would be to have a unit in front of him to ensure he doesn't charge off and get himself killed. Thanks to being a large target he can see over them so both can declare a charge if you do want to fight.

I see Volkmar's main use however being with a knight heavy army. Hatred as a rule has benefits only applicable in the first round. Infantry generally don't get the charge so have no such benefit until they have lost models.

I would therefore have Volkmar in an army with 2 units of inner circle, pegasus captain, cannon (for war machine hunting), archers (thanks to skirmish they do nicely blocking off charges), and then an army to taste...

Since Volkmar isn't much more expensive than a standard war alter with some items, it wuold be possible to squeeze him into 2500 but probably wiser to make it at least 3k.

yarrickson
11-08-2007, 22:51
:evilgrin:His chariot isn't quite the cannon fodder it looks, it does after all have a 4+ ward save. Yeah Volkmar is pretty good, but in my recent experience playing with and against the War Altar, it is even better with an Arch-Lector on top.
<p>
Yeah they dont have Volkmars Ranged Hatred, but they kick out three potential bound spells a turn, one of which is likely to be cleansing flare.
<p>
The best trick i've seen done is giving the Arch Lector Van Horstmanns speculum and the sword of fate, nominating the enemy general and charging. <p>
Not only are you nearly guaranteed to kill the Enemy General, (the harder he is the easier he is to kill) but after that your unbreakable chariot is more or less free to hold up the enemy generals bodyguard unit (usually a lot of points itself) while trying every turn to cast cleansing flare in the middle of the enemy army. Genius:D

Dracosavarian
15-08-2007, 15:49
:evilgrin:His chariot isn't quite the cannon fodder it looks, it does after all have a 4+ ward save. Yeah Volkmar is pretty good, but in my recent experience playing with and against the War Altar, it is even better with an Arch-Lector on top.
<p>
Yeah they dont have Volkmars Ranged Hatred, but they kick out three potential bound spells a turn, one of which is likely to be cleansing flare.
<p>
The best trick i've seen done is giving the Arch Lector Van Horstmanns speculum and the sword of fate, nominating the enemy general and charging. <p>
Not only are you nearly guaranteed to kill the Enemy General, (the harder he is the easier he is to kill) but after that your unbreakable chariot is more or less free to hold up the enemy generals bodyguard unit (usually a lot of points itself) while trying every turn to cast cleansing flare in the middle of the enemy army. Genius:D



Suffered this with my undead after a 3 year hiatus. He had armor of meteoric iron, van horstmanns speculum, and was on the war altar against my biggest unit of graveguard. Having even forgotten about the Speculum, I accepted his challenge.

The biggest thing that irked me was that no matter what I did, Even though I was winning the combat, he would never break, had my vampires stats, and I could NOT attack the Chariot whatsoever, as the player basically stated it counted as a single model with his arch lector on it and it was involved directly in the challenge. Put simply, my Unit kept winning, but he would never break, I could never attack his chariot ever, and he eventually killed my general.

One helluva lesson.

pierangelo
16-08-2007, 00:27
Suffered this with my undead after a 3 year hiatus. He had armor of meteoric iron, van horstmanns speculum, and was on the war altar against my biggest unit of graveguard. Having even forgotten about the Speculum, I accepted his challenge.

The biggest thing that irked me was that no matter what I did, Even though I was winning the combat, he would never break, had my vampires stats, and I could NOT attack the Chariot whatsoever, as the player basically stated it counted as a single model with his arch lector on it and it was involved directly in the challenge. Put simply, my Unit kept winning, but he would never break, I could never attack his chariot ever, and he eventually killed my general.

One helluva lesson.

That doesnt make sense to me - of course you should be able to attack the chariot in a challenge. If he was on a monstrous mount you could choose to attack the monster instead of the character - so why would the chariot be any different?

Malorian
16-08-2007, 06:53
I think he means with the rest of the troops. Just like mount, chariots are part of the challenge. So the vampire cuold attack it, but not the grave guard.

Dracosavarian
16-08-2007, 15:52
Exactly, that was the problem.

The Character was involved in a challenge, and he used van horstmanns. Had a 1+ armor and 4+ ward. Basically, I had no chance of destroying him with my vampire after she lost her stats and was reduced to 2 attacks. He tied me up the entire game with that one unit, effectivley taking out over 700 points with what I believed to be around maybe under half that cost.

My Grave guard could not attack the chariot at all, because it was, according to things from my understanding, considered to be one model entirely, involved only in the challenge.

Add in the fact that he kept using prayers and then cleansing flare at a power level of 5 in the midst of an undead army, and things got nasty real quick. REAL ******** quick.

From what I understand, this single tactic, using this one chariot, has held up an entire orc army. Literally. Since the chariot is unbreakable, and involved in a challenge, no one can attack, no matter how many units are surrounding it and even if it is assaulted on all sides. So long as he is in a challenge, he is safe to destroy your army or hold it up completley.

The way out of this situation is to, put simply, ignore the challenge. It's a very nasty tactic, and some might argue it's unsportsmanlike. Whether or not it is, is up to others to decide. For me, it was a very harsh lesson that cost me my first death of my Vampire Counts Lahmian Vampire Lord since the history of me starting up the army years ago.

Painful, very painful.

Malorian
16-08-2007, 16:00
Yes, it is nasty... but one of those things that you only fall for once.

Although your vampire could have attacked the chariot (be it at his weakened state) and once the chariot is destroyed he is no longer unbreakable.

Dracosavarian
16-08-2007, 16:15
Yes, it is nasty... but one of those things that you only fall for once.

Although your vampire could have attacked the chariot (be it at his weakened state) and once the chariot is destroyed he is no longer unbreakable.

Aye, the problem with it is the 4+ ward save and the inane chance to wound it. Basically it was a choice between a rock and a hard place.

Next time, I know the answer. Refuse the challenge. As you said, you fall for it once only. After that, I will know better and I will bog the thing down with endless hordes of zombies...

Or target every single piece of artillery I have, Two Earth Shaker Cannons, Two Hobgoblin Bolt Throwers, and 1 Death Rocket, and Blast it to the Abyss and beyond.

Master Vampire
16-08-2007, 18:39
Exactly, that was the problem.

The Character was involved in a challenge, and he used van horstmanns. Had a 1+ armor and 4+ ward. Basically, I had no chance of destroying him with my vampire after she lost her stats and was reduced to 2 attacks. He tied me up the entire game with that one unit, effectivley taking out over 700 points with what I believed to be around maybe under half that cost.

My Grave guard could not attack the chariot at all, because it was, according to things from my understanding, considered to be one model entirely, involved only in the challenge.

Add in the fact that he kept using prayers and then cleansing flare at a power level of 5 in the midst of an undead army, and things got nasty real quick. REAL ******** quick.

From what I understand, this single tactic, using this one chariot, has held up an entire orc army. Literally. Since the chariot is unbreakable, and involved in a challenge, no one can attack, no matter how many units are surrounding it and even if it is assaulted on all sides. So long as he is in a challenge, he is safe to destroy your army or hold it up completley.

The way out of this situation is to, put simply, ignore the challenge. It's a very nasty tactic, and some might argue it's unsportsmanlike. Whether or not it is, is up to others to decide. For me, it was a very harsh lesson that cost me my first death of my Vampire Counts Lahmian Vampire Lord since the history of me starting up the army years ago.

Painful, very painful.

We're just having a discussion going about the War Altar + Arch Lector on Carpe Noctem: link (http://www.vampirecounts.net//showthread.php?tid=39&pid=332#pid332). This is what EvC suggests:


2) Two S7 characters at a time. So maybe a mounted Count and a Thrall, the Count with a lance and the Thrall on foot with a Great Weapon: make sure they're in units, charge 'em in. He'll offer a challenge. The key here is to refuse the challenge! This will actually result in your Count being sent to the back ranks, but your Thrall will still be there, and hopefully he'll be able to wipe out the Altar.

Apparantly swamping doesn't work that well. This Cleansing Fire eats Zombies? As well as adding to your tarpit all that you have got per turn, an enemy can easily flank your zombies.

I'm not up to date to all this.

How much points does a War Altar cost? And the Arch Lector? And isn't the von Horstmann's Speculum a separate magic item? What does that cost, and what does it do?

Cheers,
-MV

Dracosavarian
16-08-2007, 18:51
Cleansing Flare does D6 Str 6 hits to all units within 12 inches of the arch lector, specifically D6 Str 6 to undead I mean. REALLY nasty, thing is, it's easy to dispel. Bound power 4 or 5, so not TOO rough. It's just if you get a crummy roll.

As others have said, thats alot of eggs in one basket. Also, the tarpit method has some obvious flaws. If you are flanked, then yes, you're in trouble. But you can also summon more zombies and vanhels them in to negate that flanker. Lots of options, but lots of things to consider as well.

The unit that is War Altar + Arch Lector is, put simply, an Army binder. Plain and simple. The thing is capable of binding up tons of armies, and can literally stop an entire game and bring it to it's knees.

DoW with a cannon is also an option. :) He may cry cheese...but then we all know what them empire players love to do with the thing anyways.