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T10
10-08-2007, 08:55
Lets see...

Direction of movement:
- Stupid skirmishers move in a random direction.
- Stupid US 1 single models move in a random direction.
- All other Stupid units move straight forward.
- Stupid models in a building are skirmishers and leave the building in a random direction.

Movement distance:
- Stupid models using random movement (chaos spawn, snotling pump wagons) move half the distance rolled.
- Stupid flying models move half their ground movement.

Other:
- Models subject to stupidity do not need to test at the start of the turn they are returning after having pursued off the table.

Anything else?

-T10

Finnigan2004
10-08-2007, 14:06
Frenzied units will charge if there are enemy units in range, as it is not a voluntary charge. I think that they would pursue defeated enemies too, but I'm not sure.

theunwantedbeing
10-08-2007, 14:12
Is this just a rules round up for those who dont have the rulebook?

T10
10-08-2007, 20:11
Frenzied units will charge if there are enemy units in range, as it is not a voluntary charge. I think that they would pursue defeated enemies too, but I'm not sure.

Stupidity causes the unit to move at half speed in the compulsory movement phase, which means: no charging per se.


Is this just a rules round up for those who dont have the rulebook?

It's just to check with the other rules wizards if I got my gear on the level. It's a rules round-up for those who know the rules and recognize the exotic nature of these situations. I apologize if that was a bit confusing.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
10-08-2007, 20:21
All seems correct.

Crazy Harborc
10-08-2007, 23:44
Happened today.......

My opponent's chaos giant fell down. While down as far as we could find, since it was not fleeing it still causes terror. A unit wanting to charge him while he is down, must still do a terror test first before charging the prone giant.

T10
11-08-2007, 09:18
This is interesting: Do fleeing units of stupid models test for stupidity?

As far as I can tell, there is no provision for fleeing models in the stupidity rules, and the rules for Subsequent Actions of Fleeing Troops simply stat that they are "immune to all psychology.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
11-08-2007, 10:01
Stupidity is psychology.

DeathlessDraich
11-08-2007, 10:03
Good reminders T10.
Agreed on all but one.

Units in buildings subjected to Stupidity;
They must leave the building in the same formation they went in.
There are no rules to govern the direction but I agree that the side of the building they leave is probably best determined randomly.

In addition to your list:
Characters and Stupidity - unit's stupidity restricts the characters movement only but a characters' Stupidity causes the whole unit to be stupid.
The subtle difference here is that other characters in the unit will also be affected? i.e. lose Frenzy, hatred etc but not the ability to cast magic.

Atrahasis
11-08-2007, 12:25
the rules for Subsequent Actions of Fleeing Troops simply stat that they are "immune to all psychology.


Stupidity is psychology.

True, however "Immune to all Psychology" doesn't mean you're immune to all psychology :rolleyes:

It means you pass all fear, terror and panic tests automatically, so you're still subject to stupidity.

theunwantedbeing
11-08-2007, 12:40
Look at page 48.
Fleeing units dont take psychology tests.

Atrahasis
11-08-2007, 12:46
Also true. I believed T10, which would normally be OK.

T10
11-08-2007, 14:26
p.48: ... units engaged in close combat and fleeing units never take Psychology tests.

That's the bit I was looking for - hidden in plain sight.

-T10

Finnigan2004
14-08-2007, 14:22
I'm not sure about your assertion that stupidity overrules frenzy because both are compulsory-- frenzy forces charging in the compulsory movement phase. I might have missed something in the rulebook, but I can't find where it says that stupidity trumps frenzy. The rules for stupidity specifically state-- "can not voluntarily declare charges", but frenzied charges are compulsory just like stupidity movement is compulsory.

T10
14-08-2007, 14:32
Frenzy forces a charge declaration: the frenzied units are moved in the move chargers phase like normal charging troops.

-T10

Masque
14-08-2007, 14:33
Stupid movement happens during compulsory moves. When it's time for frenzied stupid troops to charge during move chargers they have already moved. I think we can all agree that failing a stupidity test does not allow troops to move twice.

Finnigan2004
14-08-2007, 15:18
I totally agree that you can't move twice, but the rules for stupid movement state "This counts as compulsory movement and so occurs before other movement, but after charges have been declared" (pg. 52). This would indicate that frenzy should apply first because stupid movement is after charges are declared (or are compelled by frenzy). Probably should have included this text in my last post, and the italics are mine.

Masque
14-08-2007, 16:39
The declaration of a charge does not prevent a unit from moving during compulsory moves.

Finnigan2004
14-08-2007, 16:46
A frenzied charge is compulsory movement also. The rules for stupidity state that it does not prevent compulsory charges. Therefore the frenzied unit should charge. I suppose that if both moves are compulsory, you could dice off to see which rule applies though.

Edit: Wait, I see what you are saying-- that you should move the stupid creatures before chargers, but I don't see why the rulebook clearly states that it prevents voluntary charges and omits compulsory charges.

Masque
14-08-2007, 16:48
Frenzied charges are declared at the the end of declare charges but are not executed until move chargers. Stupid troops will move during compulsory moves which comes between the two.

Finnigan2004
14-08-2007, 17:15
I see what you're saying, and not disputing the sense of it. I just don't see why the rulebook does not state "can not declare charges" instead of "can not declare voluntary charges"-- this wording does not make sense, if the stupid move happens before charges can be resolved.

Chicago Slim
14-08-2007, 22:54
Because Stupid troops are considered to be charging (with normal charge responses possible) if their 1/2 move takes them into base contact with the enemy.

So, stumbling Stupidly into the enemy counts as an involuntary charge.

I suppose, given a Stupid and Frenzied unit, that failed its Stupidity test (wait-- does it take one? Are Frenzied units still immune to other psychology??) might still declare a Frenzy charge as normal, but would then make a Stupid 1/2 move in Compulsary Moves, rather than a double charge move during Move Chargers.

Fringe case, anyway.

hiredgoonthug
14-08-2007, 23:12
Frenzy does not make you immune to stupidity. Case in point; one of the miscast rolls on the Greenskin miscast is "becomes Stupid and Frenzied, can neve rlose Frenzy." What would be the point of stupidity here if he is immune? Frenzied troops are immune to fear, terror, and panic. That's it.

Also, Stupidity tests are made in the Start of Turn Phase. Thus, if you fail stupidity you cannot declare a charge, frenzied or otherwise. Frenzied chargers are moved in the "Move Chargers" phase. Units aflicted with Stupidity move in the Compulsory Phase, which is before moving chargers.

Anything else?

Finnigan2004
15-08-2007, 00:37
I think that the others are right that the stupid move would happen first, so the rest is probably pretty much academic. However, asserting that frenzied units will not declare a charge is wrong because the rules for stupidity specifically declare that they can not declare voluntary charges, by implication and omission this means that they still declare involuntary charges. Frenzied charges are not voluntary-- therefore they still should be "declared". The timing of the stupidity test is immaterial as well because the unit is frenzied whether it fails the stupidity test or not. Though it would have little effect on the game, the rule book seems to imply that involuntary charges would at least be declared.

Halflingstew
15-08-2007, 04:30
We were just having a discussion on flyers and Stupidity. Did you find something definitive on them using the Ground movement value?

Chicago Slim
15-08-2007, 13:27
While I agree that it's incorrect to call Frenzy charges "voluntary", they do still have some freedom of movement (tactical wheeling allowed, and choice of targets, if there's more than one unit that they could charge). Stupid troops have no such freedom.

It occurs to me, though, that the Frenzy charge declaration COULD be relevant-- here's an example. Your Khorne Lord on a chaos steed with the Helm of Many Eyes fails his Stupidity at the top of the turn. At the end of Declare Charges, he measures and finds himself within 14" of three of my units (to his left, his center, and his right). He declares a Frenzy charge at the left unit. Still during Declare Charges, that unit gets a charge response (shoot, flee, or hold). Then, during Compulsary Moves, the Lord moves 3.5" straight ahead, taking it into contact with my center unit (which counts as a different involuntary charge, with all the usual charge responses).

So, I could potentially have two chances to stand-and-shoot, or the option of fleeing with two different units. It's unlikely that I'd want to, but consider this case:

The same Khorne Lord has only one unit in range when he measures at the end of Declare Charges. He MUST declare that charge, even though he knows he'll fail it. Because the unit in question is a screen unit, I choose to have it flee. The Khorne Lord advances 3.5" during Compulsary Moves, putting him well within charge range of my second unit (which passed its Panic test when the screen fled through them...)

So, because he's Frenzied, I get a charge response, which I wouldn't get if he were merely Stupid. Unless, of course, we choose to interpret his "charge range" as 1/2 his move score, when measuring for Frenzy...

Masque
15-08-2007, 14:22
While I agree that it's incorrect to call Frenzy charges "voluntary", they do still have some freedom of movement (tactical wheeling allowed, and choice of targets, if there's more than one unit that they could charge). Stupid troops have no such freedom.

Do stupid troops actually lack the freedom to perform a tactical wheel? I've always assumed that once their stupid movement is found to be enough to cause a charge that the charge is then treated normally (wheeling is allowed/required to bring more models into contact). This is how it works for other compulsory movement units like Spawn or Squig Hoppers, right?


It occurs to me, though, that the Frenzy charge declaration COULD be relevant-- here's an example. Your Khorne Lord on a chaos steed with the Helm of Many Eyes fails his Stupidity at the top of the turn. At the end of Declare Charges, he measures and finds himself within 14" of three of my units (to his left, his center, and his right). He declares a Frenzy charge at the left unit. Still during Declare Charges, that unit gets a charge response (shoot, flee, or hold). Then, during Compulsary Moves, the Lord moves 3.5" straight ahead, taking it into contact with my center unit (which counts as a different involuntary charge, with all the usual charge responses).

So, I could potentially have two chances to stand-and-shoot, or the option of fleeing with two different units. It's unlikely that I'd want to, but consider this case:

The same Khorne Lord has only one unit in range when he measures at the end of Declare Charges. He MUST declare that charge, even though he knows he'll fail it. Because the unit in question is a screen unit, I choose to have it flee. The Khorne Lord advances 3.5" during Compulsary Moves, putting him well within charge range of my second unit (which passed its Panic test when the screen fled through them...)

So, because he's Frenzied, I get a charge response, which I wouldn't get if he were merely Stupid. Unless, of course, we choose to interpret his "charge range" as 1/2 his move score, when measuring for Frenzy...

There is a factor to the above example that you missed. Such a character would also cause fear and thus any unit he declared a charge against as a result of frenzy would have to test for fear.

T10
15-08-2007, 15:37
Tactical wheeling:

Stupid troops will likely wheel to align with the enemy along the appropriate side (front, flank rear) - the alternative being that the enemy unit wheels to align instead.

However, the tactical wheel is not an option as the stupid troops will move straight forward until they make contact with the enemy, at which point they stop. Any skirmishing unit engaged thus immediately rank up in front of the "chargers".


Frenzied and Stupid:
Note that a stupid unit will be moving at half speed even if "charging" by bumbling into the enemy. Frenzied troops are only required to charge if it is possible to charge, and in this case the reduced movement must be taken into account.

A model with Movement 6 and both Frenzy and Stupidity fails his stupidity check. He does not have the opportunity to declare his normal 12" charge because he is required to move straight forward 3".

-T10

Chicago Slim
15-08-2007, 16:21
There is a factor to the above example that you missed. Such a character would also cause fear and thus any unit he declared a charge against as a result of frenzy would have to test for fear.

A) Lords of Chaos do no innately cause Fear.

B) When charged by Fear-causing enemies, you take your Fear test only after the charger is proven to be able to successfully charge.


In other news, I actually quite agree with T10 (though you wouldn't know it to read my post above): the Frenzy measurement for a compulsory charge should be compared to the 1/2 move that the unit will actually make, not the double-move that it won't.

In other words, we're back to Frenzy being effectively, if not literally, negated by Stupidity: Stupidity requires straight-line movement dead ahead (or in a random direction, if the Stupid unit has no front), thus the Frenzy charge can only be declared on the thing that the Stupid unit is going to stumble into anyway. In which case, the Frenzy charge declaration is irrelevant, since the stumbling in bit causes a charge declaration (and response) anyway.

Masque
15-08-2007, 22:24
Tactical wheeling:

Stupid troops will likely wheel to align with the enemy along the appropriate side (front, flank rear) - the alternative being that the enemy unit wheels to align instead.

However, the tactical wheel is not an option as the stupid troops will move straight forward until they make contact with the enemy, at which point they stop. Any skirmishing unit engaged thus immediately rank up in front of the "chargers".

Ignoring stupid movement for a moment: If the movement of troops subject to straight-line compulsory movement, such as Spawn or Squig Hoppers, is found to initiate a charge are they allowed/required to perform a tactical wheel/pivot to bring different/more models into contact? Are they forced to change direction to follow an enemy who chooses to flee? Can they declare an EitW charge if their target flees and a new enemy is in the way? I've always thought the answer to be 'Yes' to all these questions.

How are stupid troops any different?


A) Lords of Chaos do no innately cause Fear.

Somehow I managed to interpret your example of a 'Khorne Lord on a chaos steed' as a 'Khorne Lord on a daemonic mount'.

Chicago Slim
16-08-2007, 12:46
Ignoring stupid movement for a moment: If the movement of troops subject to straight-line compulsory movement, such as Spawn or Squig Hoppers, is found to initiate a charge are they allowed/required to perform a tactical wheel/pivot to bring different/more models into contact?

Unclear, I think. They MUST move in a straight line. They MUST maximize models in combat. Around here, if the straight line clips an enemy, we usually end up "sliding" to maximize models in combat.
Of course, we also make it clear for spawn, squig hoppers, and other straight-line movers where the controlling player CHOOSES the direction, that that choice of direction MUST be one that will maximize models in combat...


Are they forced to change direction to follow an enemy who chooses to flee?

Absolutely not: they move in a straight line. End of story.

It's important to note that the flee response is only made AFTER the mover is determined to be in distance and on target. Typically, what the text actually says is along the lines of 'move in a straight line. if you hit an enemy, you're considered to be charging it (and it may make charge responses as normal).' Ostensibly, the enemy unit doesn't flee until contact is made, so they MUST flee in pretty close to the same direction that the Compulsory mover is going, anyway!

So, I figure it ought to follow this exemplary flowchart:

Compulsory Moves:
1) UNIT
a) Declare direction
b) Roll distance
c) Move
IF #UNIT# contacts an enemy unit:
i) Charge response (with immediate resolution)
ii) Complete Spawn's compulsory move if enemy has fled
IF #UNIT# contacts a friendly unit:
i) Stop. Neither unit may move any further this turn.



Can they declare an EitW charge if their target flees and a new enemy is in the way?

If that new enemy is in range of their movement, along the straight line, then they're REQUIRED to charge the EitW (can't choose to stop an inch short, which is normally allowed for EitW). But they cannot deviate from that original straight line, in order to force an EitW charge.

In fact, I'm not sure I'd even call this EitW, since it's not happening during the Move Chargers phase... Hitting the second unit follows exactly the same rules as hitting the first unit: if you stumble into them, they're considered to be charged.



How are stupid troops any different?


1) As indicated above, the examples you cited all get to choose the direction they move in, so we can force that choice to be one that'll maximize troops (at least for the original target; if they flee and you hit a different unit, it may be a different story, and might require some sliding after contact in order to maximize models in combat).

2) In many cases, stupid troops are ranked up. I can't think of any other straight-line compulsory mover that is. Ranked troops will be wider frontage, making it harder to maximize models in combat (since my single Spawn model only needs to ensure that YOUR guys get as many in as possible)


Of course, I didn't agree with most of your original premise, either... so, the conclusive question might not matter...

Masque
16-08-2007, 14:47
Unclear, I think. They MUST move in a straight line. They MUST maximize models in combat. Around here, if the straight line clips an enemy, we usually end up "sliding" to maximize models in combat.
Of course, we also make it clear for spawn, squig hoppers, and other straight-line movers where the controlling player CHOOSES the direction, that that choice of direction MUST be one that will maximize models in combat...

You know there isn't supposed to be any 'sliding', right? For models with random movement if you don't allow a wheel during the charge then you can't maximize models. You can't force someone to choose the direction that maximizes models before you know the distance the unit will travel. The unit might have plenty of move to maximize or only just enough to clip corner to corner.

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 15:02
Spawn charge "following all the normal rules". Surely the normal rules for chargers have them moving in the move chargers phase?

Masque
16-08-2007, 15:49
Spawn charge "following all the normal rules". Surely the normal rules for chargers have them moving in the move chargers phase?

I assume you are just trying to be funny. The 7th Edition FAQ tells us that compulsory charges are handled entirely during compulsory moves.

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 16:31
I wasn't actually. That Q&A addresses an issue that isn't an issue at all if you follow the rules in the respective books :/

Well done GW for changing rules through Q&A yet again.

Chicago Slim
16-08-2007, 16:34
Masque: Yes, I'm aware that there's no sliding defined in the BRB. My local group is one of the many who, as described in the FAQ, prefer to use it when needed to resolve otherwise unavoidable clipping.

As for your assertion,

You can't force someone to choose the direction that maximizes models before you know the distance the unit will travel.

well, I simply don't agree. I mean, you ALWAYS have to declare the direction before rolling distance: we simply choose to put some constraints on that choice, to disallow deliberate clipping. It appears that you disallow deliberate clipping, instead, by allowing the model to wheel during its compulsory move, which seems to me to be entirely unsupported by the rules.

Really, there are few cases where even a single inch more or less of movement will make the difference between "made it by clipping" vs. "made it square in the center." (Specifically, when the line of movement is near to 45 degrees relative to the line defined by the unit's facing side). In those fringe cases, we'll typically negotiate for leniency in our house rule, but it honestly doesn't come up much.

Masque
17-08-2007, 09:40
As for your assertion, well, I simply don't agree. I mean, you ALWAYS have to declare the direction before rolling distance: we simply choose to put some constraints on that choice, to disallow deliberate clipping. It appears that you disallow deliberate clipping, instead, by allowing the model to wheel during its compulsory move, which seems to me to be entirely unsupported by the rules.

The rules for Spawn, Squig Hoppers, Pump Wagons, and stupidity all say the charge is treated as 'normal'. I take this to mean 'as normal as possible'. Normal charges allow and sometimes require a wheel or pivot. You wouldn't prevent Squig Hoppers from charging in and lining up like normal skirmishers just because they aren't all individually moving along their predetermined straight line to do so, would you?


Really, there are few cases where even a single inch more or less of movement will make the difference between "made it by clipping" vs. "made it square in the center." (Specifically, when the line of movement is near to 45 degrees relative to the line defined by the unit's facing side). In those fringe cases, we'll typically negotiate for leniency in our house rule, but it honestly doesn't come up much.

So, if someone is in the situation where it takes a quarter inch more movement to maximize than it does to clip you force them to declare the direction that would maximize? Then if they roll half an inch less than needed to make contact you fudge it and allow the (maximized?) charge? Or is it simply not a charge?

If for some reason you were playing a game where there was no fudging or sliding of any kind how do you think it is supposed to be handled?

Chicago Slim
17-08-2007, 13:51
So, if someone is in the situation where it takes a quarter inch more movement to maximize than it does to clip you force them to declare the direction that would maximize? Then if they roll half an inch less than needed to make contact you fudge it and allow the (maximized?) charge? Or is it simply not a charge?

The way we typically play this sort of situation is this: our default expectation is that the direction of movement, if towards a unit, will always be the shortest line that maximizes units in contact. So, unless anyone says otherwise, that's what we'll use.

If I, as the controlling player, think that I'm likely to come a bit short on that line, it's my responsibility to say so. That is, if I DON'T say, "Oi, I think the line to the corner is going to help me get stuck in here, eh?", then I'm headed for the center of the unit, and if I fall a quarter inch short, then I fail the charge. If, I DO say, "Oi, I'm heading for your corner here, unless I roll high" then we'll fudge it a bit: if I roll a 6, and that just gets me to clipping, we'll take it (with a fudge-slide of the receiving unit to help maximize). If I roll a 7, then I'll end up in the front of the unit, as normal.

It puts the onus of judgement on the controlling player, just like normal charges ("Gosh, am I really inside 8 inches?")


If for some reason you were playing a game where there was no fudging or sliding of any kind how do you think it is supposed to be handled?

What you're proposing is me, playing in an environment that doesn't use this house rule. So, obviously, in that environment, I'd play however "the house" tells me to.

In any case, I respect the rule about straight-line compulsory movement more than I respect the rule about "charge as normal", since the charge only happens AFTER the straight-line movement has been done.

Masque
17-08-2007, 14:29
In any case, I respect the rule about straight-line compulsory movement more than I respect the rule about "charge as normal", since the charge only happens AFTER the straight-line movement has been done.

The charge occurs as the unit moves not after it moves. When the chosen direction and random movement are found to be going to cause contact a charge is declared and the target gets to respond as normal. Then after the response the compulsory charge will either fail or succeed.

Don't believe me? Check the Charging section of the 7th Edtion FAQ.

Now, since I've disproved the 'since...' portion of your reasoning above does that make 'charge as normal' more important than straight-line compulsory movement?

Chicago Slim
19-08-2007, 14:15
Eh, I still think it's a bit weak of an argument, though I'll allow that the FAQ clarifies that you don't move the Compulsory guys first, just measure, and then take the charge response.

But, here's the thing: if it really is a "normal charge" once measured, then you'd have to wait until after Compulsory Moves, and move the spawn or stupid unit or whatever in the Move Chargers phase (at the end, because their charge was declared last-- after Declare Charges was over, in fact), ignoring their normal movement rules entirely and reverting to a single wheel. And, it may be that that's what RAW says to do. I don't know anyone who plays it that way (unless you, Masque, DO hold their movement until the end of Move Chargers). Maybe I'll give it a try with my local gang, and see what we think of it...

In any case, I still maintain that, if you're moving in the Compulsory Moves phase, it's a rare case where the straight-line vs. bent-line movement is going to make a whit of difference-- it's a trigonometry problem (and I'm a trigonometry teacher) but I imagine there's nobody here who wants to see the math who hasn't already sorted it out for themselves... :)

Shifting the Compulsory Mover's "charge" move to the end of Move Chargers has some significant ramifications, especially when considering charges from both a CM and a normal charging unit, or "traffic" problems (the stupid unit would normally move before chargers, thus potentially getting in the way of a charge, but if they make a successful high roll, they'll move AFTER other chargers, thus potentially being blocked and FAILING their charge again!)

Still sort of fringe cases, but interesting to contemplate.

Atrahasis
19-08-2007, 14:47
Eh, I still think it's a bit weak of an argument, though I'll allow that the FAQ clarifies that you don't move the Compulsory guys first, just measure, and then take the charge response.

But, here's the thing: if it really is a "normal charge" once measured, then you'd have to wait until after Compulsory Moves, and move the spawn or stupid unit or whatever in the Move Chargers phase (at the end, because their charge was declared last-- after Declare Charges was over, in fact), The FAQ specifically says that the charge is resolved in compulsory moves.

Chicago Slim
20-08-2007, 03:01
"...the fleeing movement is resolved immediately, and finally the compulsory move of the charger is resolved."

Technically, doesn't say that the compulsory move of the charger happens during compulsory moves (KIDDING!!)

Also, I think that that reference to "compulsory move of the charger" (my emphasis) is part of what keeps me stuck on straight-line movement, rather than a normal "one-wheel" charge.

Atrahasis
20-08-2007, 12:59
You can't insist that the spawn must choose a line that would result in maximum contact if it reaches, because it might not, and the player may be depending on rolling low in order to stop near the corner of the unit, obstructing their movement.

For example, in my Beasts Chariot army (yes, I'm that dirty) I never move my spawn straight at units. I much prefer to have the enemy charge me, because then their flanks are usually slightly more accessible for the very few US5 units I have.

To do this, I move diagonally across the face of units, but I do it so that if I roll very high (10-12) I will hit the unit, because I don't want to end up behind it and leave the way clear for them to charge my chariots. If I do roll high, then I of course maximise as you would expect in a normal charge, but expecting me to move in a direction I haven't chosen removes the one choice the spawn rules explicitly give me.

Chicago Slim
20-08-2007, 22:44
Yeah, I think that'd fly in our local. We're all pretty realistic that we're just using a house rule, to simplify things by establishing a "default behavior". We're pretty willing to throw the house rule out, if the controlling player thinks that he has a good reason to do so.