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Mad Doc Grotsnik
10-08-2007, 18:46
So, Apocalypse is on it's way, promising a cornucopia of gaming and hobby delights, from the return of the much(ish) missed Vortex Grenade, as well as the VDR and TDR to the opportunity to throw all pretences of game balance out of the window in exchange for a free for all massacre of Biblical proportions.

Now, as a gamer primarily (possibly even solely) interested in Narrative gaming and non-competitive play, this is right up my street. A Staffer friend of mine told me the other day that literally anything goes. As long as you can 'justify' it, it can happen. This can allow for such mental behaviour as buning Harlequins in a Crusader, or indeed, any such Rogue Traderesque military high-jinks. Suffice to say, this is RIGHT up my street, especially if it's a Cityfight....

So, it seems GW have actually provided the 2nd of treats for 'Veteran' gamers this year (Mighty Empires being, in my opinion, the first one).

And yet, look at the recent Codecies released. Lots and lots of regimentation, from enforced squad size (thank god) to an alleged (and utterly unfounded) lack of options in the upcoming Chaos Codex.

The two seem utterly unrelated. Or, do they? Consider my following thoughts.

With Apocalypse offering free style gaming, where the only thing you need is opponents consent to kick his teeth down his throat, has GW freed itself up to create very strict Codecies for those weirdos(:p) obsessed with Tournament gaming to play with? This would certainly seem to make a good deal of sense.

By restricting the Codecies, you can look forward to a much more balanced Tournament circuit once all have been re-done. No more 5 Man Las-Plas nonsense. No more min-maxing (well, you can, obviously, it's just not that great anymore) and as such, arguably MORE variety, since most of the no-brainer combos are a lot less effective.

Meanwhile, as I said above, Apocalypse caters to those with extensive model collections who just want to have an evening (or twos!) entertainment with friends.

Whaddya reckon?

revford
10-08-2007, 19:07
I don't think we needed a £30 book to tell us we can use our models however we want to. :)

But if this is the result, great!

All it really takes is to remember that the books are the starting point of the hobby, not the whole thing.

grickherder
10-08-2007, 19:27
The biggest implication of Apocalypse will be hordes and hordes of unpainted models in never before seen numbers!

I do hope that the looseness and focus on fun of Apocalypse makes it's way into the general mindset of 40kers though.

de Selby
10-08-2007, 19:34
I'm not sure if gamers are ready for Apocalypse, judging by much of the talk I see. Whenever I hear about special formations or unlimited combos, I also hear people saying 'imagine (the awesome destructive power of) unit X!!!'

where X is deepstriking carnifexes, harlequins in a crusader, snakes on a plane, or whatever. Trying to imagine (and spending hundreds of pounds on) the deadliest formations irrespective of restrictions like FOCs or common sense is the opposite of narrative driven play.

In fact, two players siccing the most powerful combos they can find on one another is (in the non-pejorative sense) power gaming, which is commonly practised by consenting wargamers at the 1500pt level (and sometimes non-consenting ones, leading to arguments).

Although I'm in favour of rules for players to use everything and anything, I don't think Apocalypse qualifies as a wargame without what's generally called 'balance'. I don't know if this will happen in practice.

Apocalypse games could easily fall into one of two traps:
1. 40k mousetrap. Players set up a foregone conclusion and play it out. Things go boom spectacularly (inside gamers' heads). The result is always the same because both sides are always using the same forces ('all of their stuff') and there's little scope for non-obvious tactics.
2. 40k Roulette. Even if the players are prepared to balance things themselves, making the result unpredictable, the outcome is randomly determined by dice rolling and there's no scope for significant decision making. This is likely to become dull quite quickly.

40k already suffers from both problems, I hope Apocalypse doesn't exacerbate things for all of us...

Archaon
10-08-2007, 20:24
I don't see the danger in Apocalypse becoming this powergaming slugfest.. it's already designed that way however gamers have to get used to the fact that they will remove scores of (usually) hard to kill models such as Carnifexes because heavy gunnery is in abundance.

I also don't see the danger that people will be surprised at certain combos because Apocalypse games certainly aren't meant as pickup games.. they need way bigger than standard tables and you normally don't lug 3000 point 40K forces with you.

I believe it will balance itself out and offer new possibilty for weekend long games with much carnage.. just pure fun without constricting and thus debatable rules. I sure hope they bring the fun back as much as i had fun back then when we'd organize such huge battles and went at it.

Now i hope they'll release something like that for Fantasy.. the amount of 5000+ armies (and sometimes as high as 10.000+) in my area alone would make that viable.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-08-2007, 00:10
If you want to deepstrike your Carnis, be my guest. With a single Vortex Grenade, I'll soon see them off!

What I'm hoping is that, much like Cityfight, Apocalypse will see the game broken down from a single massive turn, into a series of smaller skirmishes, with the odd megaweapon settling the score early on.

But do you reckon that Apocalypse is the reason, and the antidote to the stricter style of Codex?

lanrak
11-08-2007, 00:27
Hi all.
I am astounded.
If you are a narrative gamer, why not just play games with strong narrative themes when you want to?:confused:
And does any one who has already played massive battles of 40k,realy need GW to tell you how to do this?:confused:

So GW are going to sell an expansion for £30(?) to tell 'a select gamer group' how to have fun playing the games they probably play already,and offer a range of 'buy in bulk packages' to get GW out of the craptastic financial position they got into by being 'fat and lazy'.:eyebrows:

For grand battles in the 41st milenium play Epic Armageddon.(The game was designed for this!)
The rules are FREE ,models fit on a standard games table, and you dont need a re mortgage to buy all the models...

Sheesh we decry the 'WOOT!! BUY THE KILLY UNIT OF DEATH NOW!!'
Hype advertising in WD, yet the most sensible gamers brains seem to turn to mush at the sight of a 28mm scale Baneblade!:rolleyes:

The scope for building and painting projects will increase, gamers may get a discount for ' buying in bulk' packages.

But 'Apoc' being a common and sustanable gaming experiance ,I just can not see this happening.

CoD made sense in game terms ,Apoc simply doesn't.IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.

revford
11-08-2007, 00:32
But do you reckon that Apocalypse is the reason, and the antidote to the stricter style of Codex?

I think they are totally unrelated.

The new Codex style is trying to clean up the game, smooth it out and give us a level playing field. Cheers JJ on that one.

Dumping mad lists and giving the game something closer to the very simple and cool ones from 3rd ed Rulebook is a good thing.

Apocalypse is about giving people who have giant collections a chance to use it all, about people who don't have massive collections a motive to get one and about having a book on how to run the mega battles that GW stores used to have every weekend.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I don't see Apocalypse as the gaming nirvana, just a thanks for buying all that stuff to some and a you should buy more stuff to others.

Killgore
11-08-2007, 01:18
it totaly depends on your gamer group, if you know your fellow gamers the chances of arguments about power tooled non narrative apocalypse games will be few and far between,

but if you go into a random store, then well... expect the worst



theres nothing stopping regular 40k games from having a strong narrative and odd or homemade rules/ harlequins in a ork battlewagon... it totaly depends on you and your oponunts ability to organise and communicate

violenceha
11-08-2007, 02:28
I'm all for apocalypse, but can someone tell me where I can pruchase some kind of midget (doesn't have to be a GW brand midget, I'm not anal about my hobby) to run about the middle of the massive tables, or even floor, as I and all my friends are clumsy oafs.

Nurglitch
11-08-2007, 02:58
lanrak summed it up pretty well. Apocalypse is superfluous for the people it's aimed at. You can have an enjoyable evening with friends without buying it.

And de Selby summed up how it's going to be used by people it's not aimed at. It sounds like a great product for munchkins.

Eldanar
11-08-2007, 03:27
I have played 10,000 point games for over ten years, and we have always had gentlemen's agreements over what we could and could not do. However, I like Apoc simply for the fresh ideas it may bring to large sized games, and for getting more people inspired to play higher point games (which I enjoy very much for one off games). If that is all it does, more power to them.

As for regimentation, etc., being the precursor to Apoc...I don't think so. There is probably something else motivating this movement: game balance (meh...like GW cares), clarity (this is GW :rolleyes:), a tournament orientation (doubt it)...I'm not sure, but I do not think it is Apoc. Because the only armies it has really effected (negatively, IMHO) are the 2 marine chapters as well as the impending CSM's. For all intents and purposes, the Eldar are better than ever.

Apoc is just another variant on playing the game, much as Cityfight is.

Harry
11-08-2007, 06:39
Apocalypse is just another way of playing 40K

It can be used for playing big games. It will get used in different ways by different gamers.
Gamers that love narrative will be able to use it for big narrative driven encounters.
Powergamers will be able to use it for blowing stuff up on an unpesidented scale.
Gamers that like tournaments will be able to play big points tournaments.
Everyone will be able to enjoy the spectacle.

40K suffers IMO in that it is just not an exciting a visual treat on the table. (not compared to fantasy anyway). Theres not enough toys on the table. It does not have enough of the 'epic' feel of sweeping conflict it should have. Its always just looked like a bit of a skirmish.

Thats all about to change.

fwacho
11-08-2007, 10:35
This week I tried a 3000 point game... my balanced eldar list (half mounted) vs. a Death wing army in secure and control omega level. both of our armies fit in the force org charts (with room to spare) We played on an 8x4 table and the game took about 4 hours.

Having rules to play it quicker would have been fun. ( the game was closer than our final numbers (Eldar with a solid victrory) I wouldn't mind lendgin him my raven wing and adding his gaurd to my own for bigger game but idea to play it would help. I look forward to the craziness coming in apocalypse.

lanrak
11-08-2007, 11:30
Hi Harry.

'40K suffers IMO in that it is just not an exciting a visual treat on the table. (not compared to fantasy anyway). Theres not enough toys on the table. It does not have enough of the 'epic' feel of sweeping conflict it should have. Its always just looked like a bit of a skirmish'.

Well thats becase when 28mm scale minis are used in table top gaming at a ratio of 1 to 1, then it is usualy a skirmish game being played.
Well every game apart from GWs 40k!!!:eek:
(WH uses ranked up formations where each model can represent multiple combatants.)

The 'Epic feel of sweeping combat' is represented brilliantly by the EPIC ARMAGEDDON rule set.(And Warmaster);)

Yes indeed common sense dictates that the larger the models ,the fewer you use and the more detailed the rules set.

EG Inquisitor (54mm?) Very detailed skirmish.(One player per model usualy.)

Necromundia (28mm) skirmish.(A few models per player)

40k, (28mm) large skirmish (A lot of models per player,now at company level ?).

Epic (10mm) masive battles at the regimental/divisional (?) level.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Chaos and Evil
11-08-2007, 13:21
I can see the reasons for Apocalypse to exist, and I'll probably play a game or two from time to time too.

However, if I want a massive battle every week, with more complicated tactical choices than those found in a 1500pt game of 40k, I'll play Epic (Which I play once a week anyway).

Nyarlathotep
11-08-2007, 13:58
Hi all.
I am astounded.
If you are a narrative gamer, why not just play games with strong narrative themes when you want to?:confused:
And does any one who has already played massive battles of 40k,realy need GW to tell you how to do this?:confused:

So GW are going to sell an expansion for £30(?) to tell 'a select gamer group' how to have fun playing the games they probably play already,and offer a range of 'buy in bulk packages' to get GW out of the craptastic financial position they got into by being 'fat and lazy'.:eyebrows:

For grand battles in the 41st milenium play Epic Armageddon.(The game was designed for this!)
The rules are FREE ,models fit on a standard games table, and you dont need a re mortgage to buy all the models...

Sheesh we decry the 'WOOT!! BUY THE KILLY UNIT OF DEATH NOW!!'
Hype advertising in WD, yet the most sensible gamers brains seem to turn to mush at the sight of a 28mm scale Baneblade!:rolleyes:

The scope for building and painting projects will increase, gamers may get a discount for ' buying in bulk' packages.

But 'Apoc' being a common and sustanable gaming experiance ,I just can not see this happening.

CoD made sense in game terms ,Apoc simply doesn't.IMO.

TTFN
Lanrak.

I really dont understand peoples mentality... If you dont want to buy loads of models and play apocalypse.. dont. Its not replacing the current 40K rules or anything, its completely optional.

It may well get GW out of its financial problem, In my opinion that's great! I dont want to see GW collapse, it would be terrible.

I think the feel of apocalypse is much better than epic or warmaster. At least you can use the same 28mm scale scenery! To play a big battle of 40K I would much rather expand my 40K army than buy a whole new epic one (this isn't even possible for some players as the amount of races available for epic is very limited).

For so long "veterans" have been complaining about not getting enough attention from GW (I couldn't be happier myself) and then when they do something to benefit them people cant help but poke holes in it. I suppose some people have to find something wrong with everything and are not happy unless they are complaining.

de Selby
11-08-2007, 15:03
I've thought about it a bit more.

I don't really agree that the codices are getting much more internally balanced. 3 shot starcannons and seer councils have been replaced by indestructible skimmers in the eldar codex, iron warriors by lash wielding daemon prices. The DA codex includes some daft pricing choices although I was prepared to forgive a multitude of sins for the combat squads rule and everyone getting bolt pistols and grenades.

However there is no question that sub-lists are being removed. I think the only ones left now are traits for marines and doctrines for guard. I expect the doctrines to disappear at the next revision, though I still have some hope that traits will be replaced with something else becasue I can't believe GW would reduce all marine armies to having less variety than the Dark Angels. We will see.

Apocalypse has introduced themed formations instead. A pre-determined formation like a Windrider host or a Carnifex assault is more of a known quantity than a sub-list with lots of options, maybe this is GWs preferred new method.

ExquisiteEvil
11-08-2007, 19:22
IMO Apocalypse is nothing more than a poorly thougt out, half baked attempt for GW to save their asses by a ruleset that requires more models than the majority of their 'market' (ie kids) actually own.

now im all for GW saving their asses - but once again theyve done one of the few things that will most likely backfire.

theyre trying to increase revenure by increasing volume - now unless you increase your customer base this is VERY difficult, moreso for GW as their prices are quite frankly, ridiculous.

If they want 'big battles' they should have rereleased epic - with maybe a coulple of rules in there on using 40K models if you wanted to - this would have been great for both new players wanting something 'different' than 40K and catered to all the people with large collections.

Apocalypse may be fun but word is GW are relying heavily on it to be their 'savior' - well if that is indeed the case and this is their answer to this years financials, then I predict next years financials will be more of the same.

revford
11-08-2007, 20:51
I still think that a Combat Patrol book would be better for GW sales than the giant battles one.

It's easier to sell 400pts patrol armies to ten people, who can get started sooner and play more games, than get one person to buy 4000pts for the odd Apocalyptic battle.

Major King
11-08-2007, 22:17
Personally, im going to wait until it comes out and then have a good long look at the book before i decide as to whether i like the idea of it or not.

Eldanar
12-08-2007, 02:15
IMO Apocalypse is nothing more than a poorly thougt out, half baked attempt for GW to save their asses by a ruleset that requires more models than the majority of their 'market' (ie kids) actually own.

now im all for GW saving their asses - but once again theyve done one of the few things that will most likely backfire.

theyre trying to increase revenure by increasing volume - now unless you increase your customer base this is VERY difficult, moreso for GW as their prices are quite frankly, ridiculous.



While the timing is certainly advantageous for GW, I do not think this is intentional. To the contrary, I would imagine Apoc from concept to finished product has probably been going for 3-5 years, long before GW had it serious financial down turn.

fwacho
12-08-2007, 10:38
Eldanar. I'm guessing concpet work started about 2-3 years ago. model work probably started a year and a half ago as well as rules work. codex is probbaly hitting printing press as we speak. I do think they might have bumped up the time table by six months (it seems this would have made a good 40k summer campaign.) This would explain the BA getting a phantom dex to help fill holes and allow work on codex deamons and codex orks. (the former which I'm sure is already in it's final draft and being proofread)

lanrak
12-08-2007, 10:46
Hi Eldanar.

'While the timing is certainly advantageous for GW, I do not think this is intentional. To the contrary, I would imagine Apoc from concept to finished product has probably been going for 3-5 years, long before GW had it serious financial down turn.'

Well 3 years ago things were starting on the down turn, the 'LOTR bubble had burst ,'
And of courese TK was still adamant that GW PLC was in the buisness of 'selling toy soldiers to kiddies'.

As this was the case ,then Apocolypse was a planned blatant 'sell more minis to kiddies ' project.IMO.

As pointed out higher up in the thread,the people who may want to play larger narrative games of 40k have the ability to do so now.(Vets).

And the shamless shallow marketing 'WOOOT BANBLADE' is just going to appeal to less experianced more exitable folk.('munchins').Who may not be able to afford a standard start up 40k army ,(1000pts).So will not be capable of buying 3000pt + size armies.

So some will buy in bulk to get better deals on models .(Very sensible for gaming groups!)

And the range of models for builders/converters and painters to work with will increase.

But the amount of people playing huge battles of 40k,will not 'double over night.'
SO GW are just giving the majority of gamers cheaper models when bought in bulk, and stealing some buisness from forge world.:evilgrin:

(Want a cheap plastic Baneblade? wait a few months and look on Ebay,:evilgrin:)

Hmmm lest see.
If GW actualy completely overhauled the 40k game system , to make it simple to understand intuative to play and tacticaly rich ,(on a par with other rule sets available)then more people would play the game and therfore more models would be sold!!!

But that means trusting the talented game developers at GW and letting them make important decisions, so this wont happen any time soon. :cries:

I may be cynical,but I have seen it all before from GW PLC.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Dr Death
12-08-2007, 11:16
Apocalypse's strength is the hype surrounding it. Gamers do have a rather pornographic taste for tabletop excess and Apocalypse caters wonderfully to it. As far as i'm concerned- more power to it. I really doubt it is going to be the saviour of GW and the rebirth of the veteran gamer, because as people have pointed out- veteran gamers have been at this kind of stuff for years.

What it does do however is for sad, brainwashed muppets like myself who need GW to support something to find any interest in it, it champions the narrative style of play, the wonders of quantity over quality. For a long long time the hobby has been going down the road of the 'artform', championed by CMON where perfectionism and art is held above just the love of collecting and gaming. Apocalyse shows the 'other side'- slapping together a speed painted army and blowing things up.

The rules i seriously doubt will be anything special if Mighty Empires is anything to go by but the notion of playing huge games seems like a lot of fun to a lot of gamers and so may be the jolt to the system the hobby needs to bring it out of 2kpt pitched battles and into something a little more adventurous

Dr Death

Nurglitch
12-08-2007, 11:54
I trust the Design Studio 100% (particularly Jervis as I've been able to discuss game design with him). It's the bad taste of the people they have to cater to that I worry about.

philbrad2
12-08-2007, 13:34
I welcome APOC with open arms. Putting the 'fun' back in 40K something that has been sorely missing for years. I've been a bit concerned with overly competitive direction 40K has been headed. I don't play tourneys, don't really want to. CoD was/is fun APOC looks to be, more now give us a Space Hulk stylie game and I'll be even happier. However my concern about the reduction in diversity we've had for armies in 40K (like the nerfing of Chaos) is still an issue with me. However there really seems GW are looking past the simple 1500 pts 1v1 40K games. Fun element from GW who'd have thought it??

PhilB
:chrome:

Vic
12-08-2007, 14:03
I dunno, i thought the chaos dex was nerfed before. Thinking this edition makes it smarter (a la DA dex).

grickherder
12-08-2007, 16:02
I trust the Design Studio 100% (particularly Jervis as I've been able to discuss game design with him). It's the bad taste of the people they have to cater to that I worry about.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

whitemagikmarker
12-08-2007, 18:51
the only implication that matters in my opinion is that people will have lots and lots of fun playing it, i love the idea, cant wait to get my hands on that book. no offense but epic sucks, i cant stand the models, nor the gameplay. apocalypse is a much better idea. im still in shock at the horrendous attitudes of some people on this forum in regards to the new codexs, i have the chaos codex (yay torrents) and i love it, i've been a chaos player since near the end of 2nd edition and this is the best chaos codex ever. im sorry for going off topic here but i cant stand when people complain about stuff that is very well done, this codex is full of fluff and the army list is amazing. im glad apocalypse is coming out it will just make the codexs even better, again sorry for going off topic

i <3 baneblades at reasonable prices

Nyarlathotep
12-08-2007, 20:14
I trust the Design Studio 100% (particularly Jervis as I've been able to discuss game design with him). It's the bad taste of the people they have to cater to that I worry about.

Probably the best comment I have ever seen on warseer. I couldnt have put it better myself. Well done.

Chaos and Evil
12-08-2007, 20:28
no offense but epic sucks, i cant stand the models, nor the gameplay.

What version of Epic have you tried?


apocalypse is a much better idea.

Well, it's a different idea.

Fundamentally, Epic & Apocalypse are very different game systems; One is a whole boatload of silly fun, and the other is a tactically challenging wargame.


in regards to the new codexs, i have the chaos codex (yay torrents) and i love it

You Sir, are a bad person.

tarvitz36
13-08-2007, 00:36
i was just reading some very "interesting" to say the least, opinions of some people regarding this when i read the commnt posted by magicmarker, and i wuld just like to say a thanks from me, for filling me with hope that there are still people out there who have nice things to say that make sense.

apocalypse is going to be exactly the same concept as cityfight if its not for you then dont buy it and spend your money on something else or somewhere else lol

and just on topic forge worlds business is games workshops business thats why there branching into thewarhammer range with some very tasty new figures this coming year

Glabro
13-08-2007, 03:04
Hi all.
I am astounded.
If you are a narrative gamer, why not just play games with strong narrative themes when you want to?:confused:
And does any one who has already played massive battles of 40k,realy need GW to tell you how to do this?:confused:


Do you really think all the people that´d enjoy narrative games a)realize the option exists b)know how to do them properly c)are inspired enough to do so?

Ditto for massive games, except not. Apocalypse is a new, streamlined ruleset for fast play of massive battles.

Occulto
13-08-2007, 03:46
If they want 'big battles' they should have rereleased epic - with maybe a coulple of rules in there on using 40K models if you wanted to - this would have been great for both new players wanting something 'different' than 40K and catered to all the people with large collections.

As an Epic player I heartily agree they should rerelease Epic! :D

However...

While it sounds easy, there's a lot more than "a couple of rules" required to allow 40K players to use their models in Epic.

I have over 10,000 points of a DA successor chapter at home (I'd call that a large collection). Now if I wanted to translate that into Epic, it'd be a few stands at most, hardly the stuff of "epic" battles. On the flipside, looking at my "normal" 3000 point Epic Eldar army? With the prices FW are charging for superheavies, it's a pipe dream to think about playing a decent Epic game in 28mm scale! Anyone prepared to shout me a 40K scale Phantom titan?

While both rulesets deal with "big battles" I think it's incorrect to make too many comparisons between the two. Most people are getting excited about fielding one baneblade - that's a far cry from the baneblade companies you see in the 6mm game. :p

As it is, Apocalypse is just a way for people to play big 40K games more easily. If you can already do that, cool, more power to you. But for some of us, we've been turned off big games because they inevitably bog down in the detail.

I welcome any ruleset that allows me to field my complete 40K army in it's entirety without requiring a week's vacation to finish the game. I also welcome a ruleset that allows our gaming group to mix it up without everyone being asked to buy a whole army worth of new models (and painting the little swine).


Hi all.
I am astounded.
If you are a narrative gamer, why not just play games with strong narrative themes when you want to?:confused:
And does any one who has already played massive battles of 40k,realy need GW to tell you how to do this?:confused:

Anyone can write/run a campaign, but the WHFB General's Compendium (and now Mighty Empires) certainly make it a lot easier. Ditto for Apocalypse. It's an optional tool - if you don't need it, don't buy it. Simple.

I was amazed how many people's reactions to Apocalypse consisted of "this can't be balanced" or "whaddya mean there's no equal points?" Those are two things that narrative gaming generally involves. The fact those concepts evoked such outraged (or confused) responses suggested to me that narrative gaming has been sadly neglected amongst a lot of the 40K community.

Grimshawl
13-08-2007, 03:50
I'm all for apocalypse, but can someone tell me where I can pruchase some kind of midget (doesn't have to be a GW brand midget, I'm not anal about my hobby) to run about the middle of the massive tables, or even floor, as I and all my friends are clumsy oafs.

Well the GW midgets are long OOP so its good that you havent got you heart set on one.
However let me suggest an alternative to midget usage. Get a cople of those old people extended grabbers with the squeeze trigger operating a set of suction clamps at the end. That should aford you and your mates the optomun reach accross those apocaliptic tables. ;)

Brother Loki
14-08-2007, 11:23
I think Apocalypse will be a very valuable addition to the 40k stable, for one very simple reason - it will help the kinds of players whose first question is always 'is it legal' to understand that tournament legality isn't the be-all and end-all of 40k. You know, the ones who think Forgeworld products aren't official, or that your Lost and the Damned army is now illegal.

Not everyone has the luxury of a large group of like-minded players, so they have to conform to the expected norms of the group they do play in in order to get games. In many areas, that norm is based around GT rules, even amongst players who don't play in tournaments. That means many players are reluctant to build 'counts as' or variant armies (which are frequently heavily converted and therefore more costly than normal codex ones - i.e. more money for GW), Forgeworld goodies and so on, because they have a hard time getting to use them. Apocalypse may be a step towards encouraging wider acceptance of these types of thing.

Dodgy Ed
14-08-2007, 13:15
can someone tell me where I can pruchase some kind of midget (doesn't have to be a GW brand midget, I'm not anal about my hobby) to run about the middle of the massive tables, or even floor, as I and all my friends are clumsy oafs.

Wrap it up in tin foil give it a sink plunger and voila not only do you have someone to move minis but also an Imperator titan;)

Sarevok
14-08-2007, 17:39
Apocalypse seems to be aimed at vets, but the exact opposite of what they were saying they wanted, Advanced 40k and all that. Apocalypse streamlines the rules even further, rather than make them more complicated.

Meh. It might be fun, it might not, but I wish they'd fix the core rules before doing stuff like this.

grickherder
14-08-2007, 21:43
I think Apocalypse will be a very valuable addition to the 40k stable, for one very simple reason - it will help the kinds of players whose first question is always 'is it legal' to understand that tournament legality isn't the be-all and end-all of 40k.

Yes please! If this is the only thing it accomplishes for GW at all, it will all be worth it. The "tournament legal" mentality that has gripped too many players and been too prevalent on many online forums has got to go.


That means many players are reluctant to build 'counts as' or variant armies (which are frequently heavily converted and therefore more costly than normal codex ones - i.e. more money for GW), Forgeworld goodies and so on, because they have a hard time getting to use them. Apocalypse may be a step towards encouraging wider acceptance of these types of thing.

I'm going to do my best with some local gamers to import some of the flexibility of Apocalypse back into smaller 40k games. I'm going to put out "anything goes" challenges where there's no FoC for smaller games either.

Professor Chaos
15-08-2007, 04:07
[QUOTE=ExquisiteEvil;1822286]IMO Apocalypse is nothing more than a poorly thougt out, half baked attempt for GW to save their asses by a ruleset that requires more models than the majority of their 'market' (ie kids) actually own......theyre trying to increase revenure by increasing volume - now unless you increase your customer base this is VERY difficult, moreso for GW as their prices are quite frankly, ridiculous.QUOTE]

I agree with you.

GW sole purpose has been to SELL models, codex's, balance, army lists, rules, quality, etc... are just an afterthought.

Don't pretend they have any other motive other than to "make money" anymore?
The Fact is you don't need "Codex Apocalopyse" to have a large Epic size 40k game. In fact I implore people "NOT" to buy it. You can make your own rules and add them on to suit your purposes for any size game.

Also, all the rules they have in this codex will either be re-written in 5 years or cease to exist. Look at how long Codex Cityfight lasted. How long the chaos Codex lasted, how long the nearly new Space marine codex is going to last after they re-work it, how long it took for the Codex Wargear reference to become useless?

It's a waste of money. You'll get more satisfaction using your imagination then spending $20.00 on a product you will rarley use.

Bookwrak
15-08-2007, 06:08
It's definitely a sign of something when cynicism crosses the line into unintentional comedy.


The Fact is you don't need "Codex Apocalopyse" to have a large Epic size 40k game. You can make your own rules and add them on to suit your purposes for any size game.
"Hey there random gaming store dude! I see that you too have quite a FW collection. Wanna have a mega-huge game?"

"Sure, but I don't have all weekend to play it. Shall we use the house rules I have developed?"

"Well, I made my own set of mega battle rules, and they work quite well. I would rather use them instead."

"Let us study each other's rules, and then decide upon which will be better to play."

(And much time is spent not playing.)

GW sole purpose has been to SELL models, codex's, balance, army lists, rules, quality, etc... are just an afterthought.

Don't pretend they have any other motive other than to "make money" anymore?
Newsflash: Water is wet. Fire is hot. Sandpaper hurts when applied to genitals(but still kinda feels good...). Companies prefer to make money over not making money, and aside from the bias of your own overwhelming negativity, is there anything that actually backs up your claim that the rest is an 'afterthought?'


In fact I implore people "NOT" to buy it.
Ah yes, of course, because now that GW is doing something to warm the cockles of the vet with 2 10,000+ point armies heart, the appropriate response is 'Boo! Hiss! You suck!"

Modern_Angel
15-08-2007, 10:47
Ah yes, of course, because now that GW is doing something to warm the cockles of the vet with 2 10,000+ point armies heart, the appropriate response is 'Boo! Hiss! You suck!"

But I would say that Apocalypse is *not* aimed at Veterans, its aimed at anyone with deep pockets or access to Parent's deep pockets. Nothing wrong with that, companies exist to make a profit. Its the masquarading as GW throwing the Vets a bone after all these years thats annoying me. I think its aimed again at the Kids, but saying, look, bigger toys, you have to buy them to keep up with your friends new Titan / Baneblade / whatever.

Veterans asked for a more complex game, in my opinion, GW are adding a bigger, dumbed down game instead.

Lets add weapons that ignore the to wound and saves / cover saves mechanics. (and put them onto the big shiny new things while we're at it!)
Lets move multiple units at once.
Lets fire multiple units with fewer dice(ignoring the usual to wound / saves / cover saves again).

Is that really making the game more complex? More Challenging?

As has been said before that nothing was stopping people playing large narrative driven games already, why wait for Apocalypse and GW to tell you that its ok to play those sort of games?

Lord Malorne
15-08-2007, 11:01
now now now people...does it really matter! Apoc is here to possibley stay and the fact is griping will not change the fact that new models and rules are coming out and untill i actually play a game of Apoc i will not make harsh or positive judgements on the game.

Oh and has been said over and over again 'GW is trying to sell us more models....' of COURSE they are (notice the name games workSHOP) and we at the end of the day are indulging in an unecessary hobby so why gripe about it hm!

if the problem is you do not like the new models or the prices or that people are buying them then thats upto you! IMHO new stuff is a good thing. if Apoc sucks then it will fail! we wil have new stuff if it succeeds then...you guessed it we get new models (yay!)

so stop your Griping!

Sureshot05
15-08-2007, 12:05
I see what MDG (original poster) is suggesting and I agree that it might be a valid point. Witht the direction of the current codex's I get more the impression that GW is trying to encourage Gamers to use the "Count as" rule than ever. Rules wise they're streamlined and faster with a little less variety*. Model wise you have more freedom starting to come through. Made Thousand sons models on bikes? Simply use the Chaos bike entry with a Mark of Tzeetch. Want Tau Auzillaries? Count them as firewarriors. Want a huge horrific warp monster? Use greater daemon rules. The options to a modeller are increased, without the need to model every little detail so much. However, ruleswise the game is less varied and more cookie-cutter.

However, now apocalypse is coming out with what appears to be a series of fun crazy rules for giant games which are designed for carnage, and less for strictly balanced encounters. The rumours indicate a game where lots of the more bizarre and fun rules and bringing unbalanced ideas back in their true, most dangerous form so that all hell can break loose on the table. However, with so little being said about the rules it is hard to judge at the moment.

Can't wait for Apocalypse.

Bring out the Big Guns

blongbling
15-08-2007, 13:01
sometimes i ask why GW bothers to try and write things for veterans....vets want rules for bigger games, GW gives it to them then they get it thrown back in its face...is it any wonder that GW people tend to ignore Warseer.....

Sarevok
15-08-2007, 14:06
sometimes i ask why GW bothers to try and write things for veterans....vets want rules for bigger games, GW gives it to them then they get it thrown back in its face...is it any wonder that GW people tend to ignore Warseer.....

Who was asking for rules for bigger games? What I most often heard was a call for "Advanced 40k", which would probably mean smaller games with greater complexity. Apocalypse is the exact opposite.

Chris_Tzeentch
15-08-2007, 15:43
whats TDR btw?

Deja Dude
15-08-2007, 18:16
The guys at my new local store were talking about this a few weeks ago, and it pained me to hear the complete negativity to anything GW do. Seriously, the most vocal guy has several entire armies built from cardboard and self-cast minis, and a photocopied bunch of codecies - and he was still complaining about the new stuff coming out. What difference does it make, if you have zero investment in the hobby?

This sounds bizarre, but seeing the people in this store, and their style of complete powergaming has turned me off playing anything warhammer related to the point where I played a more narrative game by myself the other day. Seeing Apocalypse was like a breath of fresh air, I can't wait to play games the way I want to play them.

And it's got Vortex Grenades. What more could you ask for?!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-08-2007, 18:42
But I would say that Apocalypse is *not* aimed at Veterans, its aimed at anyone with deep pockets or access to Parent's deep pockets. Nothing wrong with that, companies exist to make a profit. Its the masquarading as GW throwing the Vets a bone after all these years thats annoying me. I think its aimed again at the Kids, but saying, look, bigger toys, you have to buy them to keep up with your friends new Titan / Baneblade / whatever.

Veterans asked for a more complex game, in my opinion, GW are adding a bigger, dumbed down game instead.

Lets add weapons that ignore the to wound and saves / cover saves mechanics. (and put them onto the big shiny new things while we're at it!)
Lets move multiple units at once.
Lets fire multiple units with fewer dice(ignoring the usual to wound / saves / cover saves again).

Is that really making the game more complex? More Challenging?

As has been said before that nothing was stopping people playing large narrative driven games already, why wait for Apocalypse and GW to tell you that its ok to play those sort of games?


Not to you personally, but more to the general sentiment you have posted....

BALLS! Quite frankly. Big hairy Welsh Fishermen ones at that.

I have been playing 40 for yonks now. Cade and I have several armies between us. We have tried to play 4,000 points, but we found, even with the streamlined 4th Edition, things got bogged down, and each phase took an age to complete.

Apocalypse offers us special formations, bigger guns, bigger toys, and ridiculous levels of mass annihilation. What more could I want?

Do I really need to buy the official rules? No, I guess not. But it's nice to see GW offering them. That way I don't have to write up pages of rules etc.. to hand out to whomever I fancy stomping flat one weekend. No, both or one of us procures Apocalypse, and we both have a whale of a time.

This IS aimed at Veteran gamers, who have multiple armies. We now have the opportunity to field everything, all at once, including any Forgeworld related nonsense we may have procured along the way.

And heres the crux of it. Don't want to buy it? Then don't. Make up your own rules. It's your game. But for Gods sake, do not criticise a company for trying to cater to different needs and wants. The gaming market isn't just you!

And I will re-iterate, this is not a personal attack on your goodself Modern_Angel but the sentiments. Sorry if I'm coming off a little heavy handed!

And now onto a point I really wish I'd stuck in the orignal post!

The boxed sets coming out. Buy in bulk, save money. Could this possibly be a sneaky arsed way of GW lowering prices, without technically lowering them? I'm refering mainly to the Tau battlesuits (9 Crisis, 3 Stealth), Armoured Interdiction (2 Hammerheads, 1 Skyray) and the Eldar Windrider Host (9 Jetbikes, 2 Vypers, and seemingly a Jetbike Autarch). All of these can be the basis of certain army configurations, which would otherwise be pretty pricey to get going. But with these, you can get the bulk/core of your desired force, and then just add in a couple of other boxes, with a reduced price tag.

I know that they are allegedly 'splash' releases, but I know that there are Splash releases, and that there are Splash releases. For example, the SoB Missiletank thing. Released briefly in stores, still available online. Same with the Steam Tank..... Dare we hope that this is a new way for GW? Essentially, Battleforces for different tactical minds?

Adept
16-08-2007, 00:33
Veterans asked for a more complex game

Then the Veterans are idiots, and deserve to be ignored.

Complexity, for it's own sake, should never be desired. What the gamers should want is a fun game, that accurately mirrors the game setting, and uses the most simple game mechanics possible.

Professor Chaos
16-08-2007, 00:42
It's definitely a sign of something when cynicism crosses the line into unintentional comedy.


"Hey there random gaming store dude! I see that you too have quite a FW collection. Wanna have a mega-huge game?"

"Sure, but I don't have all weekend to play it. Shall we use the house rules I have developed?"

"Well, I made my own set of mega battle rules, and they work quite well. I would rather use them instead."

"Let us study each other's rules, and then decide upon which will be better to play."

(And much time is spent not playing.)

Newsflash: Water is wet. Fire is hot. Sandpaper hurts when applied to genitals(but still kinda feels good...). Companies prefer to make money over not making money, and aside from the bias of your own overwhelming negativity, is there anything that actually backs up your claim that the rest is an 'afterthought?'


Ah yes, of course, because now that GW is doing something to warm the cockles of the vet with 2 10,000+ point armies heart, the appropriate response is 'Boo! Hiss! You suck!"

Wow!

You really are funny. Why don't you learn to respond without peronsal attacks and maybe, just maybe I'll take you seriously:o.

I'm a "Hater", and you are a "Shill". Get used to it, your hatred towards me does nothing to help your POV that I should "shut up". In fact I am gald to offend people like you, you have the thinnest skin and until you have invested the amount of money that I have invested in the game (maybe I'm a fool for that, you can personaly attack me for that mistake); I think I have every right to gripe about how they do business.

One more thing. If it's comedy you after, why does it seem your not laughing. Seems you have more anger at me than pity.

If your going to go on a crusade against me becuase I have problem's with GW, you better stop the personal attacks, it makes you look just like the cynic bitter hater I am.

Bookwrak
16-08-2007, 10:49
Wow!

You really are funny. Why don't you learn to respond without peronsal attacks and maybe, just maybe I'll take you seriously:o.

I'm a "Hater", and you are a "Shill". Get used to it, your hatred towards me does nothing to help your POV that I should "shut up". In fact I am gald to offend people like you, you have the thinnest skin and until you have invested the amount of money that I have invested in the game (maybe I'm a fool for that, you can personaly attack me for that mistake); I think I have every right to gripe about how they do business.

One more thing. If it's comedy you after, why does it seem your not laughing. Seems you have more anger at me than pity.

If your going to go on a crusade against me becuase I have problem's with GW, you better stop the personal attacks, it makes you look just like the cynic bitter hater I am.

You either quoted the wrong post, or else you're responding to a whole lot of things I never said. Either way, tone down the rage bro, it's bad for your heart.

Chaos and Evil
16-08-2007, 11:21
Complexity, for it's own sake, should never be desired. What the gamers should want is a fun game, that accurately mirrors the game setting, and uses the most simple game mechanics possible.

'Veterans' who have outgrown 40k should probably play Epic then, being as it was designed with older gamers in mind... as an advanced version of 40k. :rolleyes:

As to 'advanced' rules for the 30mm game, I think it's unlikely we'll see them for a while (They would compete directly with the main 40k rules).

Bookwrak
16-08-2007, 11:34
The problem with 'advanced' rules is that you either need to make something that can use the current codexes straight out of the box without alteration, or else release enough advanced codexes at the same time as the rules so that most armies are playable. Either way, it's a whole lot of time and effort for something with very little actual demand. Apocalypse on the other hand, requires only a single unified rulebook be written, and big armies, something that lots of veterans already have. And if you don't have a big army, or you don't think your army is big enough, lots of tasty splash releases.

ChrisAsmadi
16-08-2007, 11:49
Then the Veterans are idiots, and deserve to be ignored.

Complexity, for it's own sake, should never be desired. What the gamers should want is a fun game, that accurately mirrors the game setting, and uses the most simple game mechanics possible.

Doesn't mean that an entire set of rules(morale) should be completely pointless, either.

Brother Loki
16-08-2007, 12:36
Why? what does morale have to do with complexity?

Chaos and Evil
16-08-2007, 12:46
He's saying that the current Morale rules in 40k are largely ignorable, for one reason or another.

grickherder
16-08-2007, 12:50
The goal should be elegant rules. Ones that are sufficiently simple, but still deep. Ones that provide a great solution without being either cumbersome or overly simple.

For those veterans who have quit playing because of disatisfaction with the rules, it's often the case that there is something in the rules that never has given them pleasing results. Something that makes them go "hmm... that doesn't make sense-- what a stupid rule." For a while they're fine with it. They play because those are the rules, but eventually enough is enough. It's like having sand in your socks. You can walk around with it for a while, but eventually your reasons for keeping the socks on will be overwhelmed by the irritation.

My biggest irritant with 40k is the turn structure. The bigger points the game, the sillier it gets. I can understand for small skirmish games, it works. But if they have the same turn structure of the entire army doing everything while the opponent does nothing for the gigantic apocalypse games, it's going to suck big time. Imagine standing around for over an hour while 10,000 points of stuff is moved, shot and assaulted. All the while your army does nothing. No reaction, no mobility, the odd fall back here and there.

They should atleast break it down into wings of 1000 or 2000 points which alternate.

Also-- imagine how much more of a problem the shooting phase of the first turn decimating the other army will be when you have all these weapons that remove swaths of models.

Unless they sufficiently fix the rules, Apocalypse is going to even more plainly expose all the shortcoming of the 40k system.

Adept
16-08-2007, 14:45
The goal should be elegant rules. Ones that are sufficiently simple, but still deep. Ones that provide a great solution without being either cumbersome or overly simple.

True dat. GW really got it right with the LotR rules, IMO. I'm pretty keen to give Legends of the Old West a go, as well as the new Pirates version. When they release a Ninjas version of the LotR rules, I may just have reached gaming Nirvana. Pirates, Ninjas and Cowboys, Oh my!


My biggest irritant with 40k is the turn structure.

And the problem is only exacerbated by the lack of reactions. At least in WHFB, even though the games share their turn structure, a player has the option of reacting to the things that happen to his unit via charge reactions.

Epic and LotR have nice, integrated turn structures. Warmaster also, to an extent, although I'm not so much a fan of the way a unit can make multiple moves in a turn with successful LD tests.

revford
16-08-2007, 18:03
Also-- imagine how much more of a problem the shooting phase of the first turn decimating the other army will be when you have all these weapons that remove swaths of models.

This is already silly at 2000pts, I'm a bit worried that even with escalation, one side will clean the other off the board on turn one, then sit back and wipe out each new stack of units that arrive.



I'm pretty keen to give Legends of the Old West a go, as well as the new Pirates version.

You should try LOTOW, it's great. Heroes that work as leaders, rather than melee monsters. The 'heroic shoot' becomes your limited use overwatch as well as the quickdraw.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-08-2007, 18:34
Right, thats quite enough ambling around the subject for one thread, thankyou very much.

I don't suppose it would be too much to actually keep this on topic, would it?

Remember, this thread is for the discussion of whether or not Apocalypse has been designed to allow stricter Codecies for Tournament play, not whether Apocalypse is/isn't bobbins.....

lanrak
16-08-2007, 22:02
Hi all.
Well as narrative driven ' un-ballanced games' can be played at any time without any real need for somone to tell you how to play them.
...'how about mekboy Lugnuts has got a new weapon thats works like a rail gun,and the Last Chancers have to capture it'.....etc.

So all the developers have to do is define what will result in a suitably ballanced game for competative play.(Tournaments..)

And then fill WD with ideas on narrative missions,campains etc...(Like they used to...)

So most gamers play fun narrative games.
And those obsessed with W/L/D results can just play the 'tournament ballanced rules and army lists.'

Unfortunatley GW seem intent on reducing 40k to a 'bland' slightly better ballanced game.IMO.
(Rather than the fun and wacky narrative driven rules of 2nd ed.)

Which is still a long way short of the ballance in other games,and removes the main thing that makes GW games fun,IMO.Narrative based rules!

The rules that made Mad boys utterly brilliantly mad ,and Shock attack guns hystericaly shocking!

TTFN
Lanrak.

grickherder
16-08-2007, 22:24
Remember, this thread is for the discussion of whether or not Apocalypse has been designed to allow stricter Codecies for Tournament play, not whether Apocalypse is/isn't bobbins.....

The size of Apocalypse games bringing out the weaknesses in the rules will have a direct impact on people's desire for narrative games. When rules produce unpleasing results (like the turn 1 shooting problem), gamers attentions will be drawn to that. It'll be too "gamey" and "get in the way of the story." Units won't get a chance to shine, cool war stories won't get told, because unless they do something to address the problems of 40k that get magnified in longer and longer games, no one is going to want to stand around for hours waiting for the other guy to move 10,000 points of models or have their new cool unit always wiped out in turn 1 shooting because they lost a roll of a d6.

These issues are directly related to the topic. If Apocalypse is about moving away from tournaments/competition focused games, the rules better not get in the way of that goal. Cause if they do, it'll fail in fulfilling such design goals.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-08-2007, 20:49
Well, call paint me optimistic and call me Kenneth, but I reckon that Apocalypse has been written with an awareness that pretty much every wargame has a maximum reccomendable points level, and sets out to correct this.

I know the Tau Instertion force won't scatter when using the Stealth team as a point of entry, and get to fire weapons as part of their arrival.

I reckon there will be plenty nuff rules! But I do agree with you. It does need to do something, otherwise it could be less fun than I imagine!