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stecal
12-08-2007, 04:15
Ok I think we can see the trend here towards cheaper vehicles in the latest DA, BA & Chaos codexes. 35 pt Rhinos with free smoke, Storm Bolter, searchlight and repair ability.

So when do the rest of us see this discount? Hopefully it doesn't roll out only in a new Codex years away.

Light of the Emperor
12-08-2007, 04:22
The space marine codex is supposedly getting a redux next year to bring it in line with the other chapters. This would also mean (not concrete) the addition of the combat squads rule, the rhino points and a "weakening" of the assault cannon's availability.

BDJV
12-08-2007, 06:20
Be careful what you wish for.

I would imagine that spiffy trait system to go away in the SM redux.

Gutlord Grom
12-08-2007, 06:45
There's a vain hope of the traits surviving, just less fun.

carlisimo
12-08-2007, 06:50
What? I thought Rhinos were too cheap already.

DesolationAngel
12-08-2007, 06:52
Next year, although Marines lose a lot of other things in the new codex with a lot of things costing more points, also consider that the rhino pays a lot more for extra armour, so its not that much cheaper.

alex03
12-08-2007, 07:31
When your army's codex is next redone?

Yes, possibly years away...

GodofWarTx
12-08-2007, 07:50
Let me also say be careful what you wish for. The price you pay for 35 point rhinos is quite high.

My Blood Angel "inventory" swelled tremendously in points with the exact same models/squads i use. From like 6300 points (inc all special characters to choose from) to like 7100 points. Thats quite a leap.

Billpete002
12-08-2007, 08:39
the trait system was stupid people would take 1 or 2 bonus's that were very advantageous then take the disadvantages that didn't impede on their army e.g. no infiltrating or less tanks etc.

frankly if they did away with that and put chapter specific traits in the codex's released OR list a couple traits in the back then that would fix everything.

yeah the cost of SM equipment is nuts. I suppose though its to reduce the amount of 'ass whooping' the army had. Though if you look at the chaos codex the price of their equipment is just as bad.

I wonder if this points towards a point increase/decrease with IG? I think the points are a little pricey but not as terrible as SM have it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-08-2007, 13:19
It will indeed only come when your new Codex comes around (something I'm not convinced has to happen overall).

Until then, you have more choice over what goes into that Rhino, so don't knock it!

Randy
12-08-2007, 15:06
You get it when you realise BA pay 40 poiunts for a rhino and pay a lot more for most of their units, get FAR less options overall.

A 5 man tactical in a rhino is 155 points with a vet serg (inclusive). For codex marines a 5 man unit with vet in a rhino is 140.

A 10 man tactical for BA in a rhino is 230. For codex chapters it's 215.

If we want EA it costs 10 points more.

It's not -all- as cheap as you think it is.

victorpofa
12-08-2007, 15:27
You get it when you realise BA pay 40 poiunts for a rhino and pay a lot more for most of their units, get FAR less options overall.

A 5 man tactical in a rhino is 155 points with a vet serg (inclusive). For codex marines a 5 man unit with vet in a rhino is 140.

A 10 man tactical for BA in a rhino is 230. For codex chapters it's 215.

If we want EA it costs 10 points more.

It's not -all- as cheap as you think it is.

But you also get one Death Company marine for each squad you buy so the points are even or still slightly cheaper depending on how much you value the Death Company.

Joewrightgm
12-08-2007, 15:52
Yeah, cheap Rhinos are nice, but only if you don't like stacking up on options; when you start adding Extra Armor, H-K Missiles and assorted other goodies, the get expensive fast.

Note, I'm saying this from a Dark Angel's perspective. I like my transports cheap as dirt too.

Merceus
12-08-2007, 16:03
They best not do away with traits! I only have 2 bolters in my entire army!!

Avenger2040
12-08-2007, 17:22
As Randy said, rhinos are not as cheap as you think and more if you add options like Joewrightgm, also I think if rhinos get cheaper in Space Marines redux, the marines will got expensive to balance the cheaper rhinos.

Also I hope traits system remain untouched or get a upgrade, got it better.

Randy
12-08-2007, 17:26
True victor, but the otherside of that is our tacticals/units in gneeral give more VP then yours do. In other words if you can get a couple of tarpits with a power weapon or two into the DC they're going to be losing nubmers fast and pinned leaving you to focus on killing stuff that gives a relatively high VP yield.

I would liek to say however, I'm not complaining about the cost for BA or codex marines, or the pros/cons of the different armies - just showing the weaknesses of BA relative to codex marines.

god octo
12-08-2007, 17:32
I hope that the inquisition eventually (probably in 10 years time) get cheaper rhinos. It would free up quite a few points for my witch hunters army.

Grand Master Raziel
12-08-2007, 17:40
Be careful what you wish for.

I would imagine that spiffy trait system to go away in the SM redux.

I concur. I'm getting myself ready for that now, playing completely vanilla, all my squads at 10-men, and so on. That way, when SM-Redux rolls out, I'll be ahead of the curve. So the theory goes, anyway. ;)


Next year, although Marines lose a lot of other things in the new codex with a lot of things costing more points, also consider that the rhino pays a lot more for extra armour, so its not that much cheaper.

Yeah, cheap Rhinos are nice, but only if you don't like stacking up on options; when you start adding Extra Armor, H-K Missiles and assorted other goodies, the get expensive fast.

Even with Extra Armor tripling in cost, my Rhinos are going to wind up being 8 points cheaper per vehicle than they will be under SM-Redux, assuming the pricing conventions in Codex: Dark Angels carry over. I might even start slapping the Pintle Storm Bolters onto my Rhinos. That upgrade is cheap enough to be worthwhile on them, and my Rhinos would still be cheaper than I'm accustomed to paying for them now, albiet by only 3 points per vehicle. I'm still not going to bother with HK-missiles, though.


I wonder if this points towards a point increase/decrease with IG? I think the points are a little pricey but not as terrible as SM have it.

I'm wondering what's going to happen with the IG codex at this point. It seems unlikely to me that IG will get to keep the Doctrine system when the next dex is released.


They best not do away with traits! I only have 2 bolters in my entire army!!

:eyebrows: How'd you manage that?



Also I hope traits system remain untouched or get a upgrade, got it better.

I think that's pretty unlikely. Most of the Advantages in the Trait system grant access to Veteran skills to units that could not otherwise get them. The most recent army lists suggest that free access to Vet skills is something that is being done away with. Strip out all the advantages that give that, and you're not left with much.

Anyhow, I don't think I'm going to miss the Trait system as much as I initially thought. When it first got released, I came up with the idea of an all-infiltrating army. At the time, I thought it was pretty unique. Now, it seems like everybody who uses the Trait system does that, plus there were all the Chaos players who got to do basically the same thing. I won't mind seeing something different.

Randy
12-08-2007, 18:07
How are your rhinos going to be cheaper? EA and the rhino discount balance off and you said you don't use PSB..

elfman
12-08-2007, 20:35
Well you can wait for the new marine codex or if you want them right now then move to blood angels or use the dark angels dex for generic marines and get yourself ready for the new SM dex.

victorpofa
12-08-2007, 20:48
True victor, but the otherside of that is our tacticals/units in gneeral give more VP then yours do. In other words if you can get a couple of tarpits with a power weapon or two into the DC they're going to be losing nubmers fast and pinned leaving you to focus on killing stuff that gives a relatively high VP yield.

Can't argue with that. 'tis true. Though they can't be pinned since they are fearless.


I would liek to say however, I'm not complaining about the cost for BA or codex marines, or the pros/cons of the different armies - just showing the weaknesses of BA relative to codex marines.

Gotcha.

Ian Argent
12-08-2007, 20:59
You get it when you realise BA pay 40 poiunts for a rhino and pay a lot more for most of their units, get FAR less options overall.

A 5 man tactical in a rhino is 155 points with a vet serg (inclusive). For codex marines a 5 man unit with vet in a rhino is 140.

A 10 man tactical for BA in a rhino is 230. For codex chapters it's 215.

If we want EA it costs 10 points more.

It's not -all- as cheap as you think it is.

The extra 15 points buys you an (optional) Death Company member, though, no?

C: DA is a much better reference for a hypothetical C: SM Redux as far as points cost goes.

Codex DA (before adding wargear to the sgt, which is admittedly pricier than C: SM) has the exact same cost for 4 troops and a vet sgt as does C: SM. The rhino is still cheaper after extra armour on both - by 2/3 of a marine. So before wargear on the sgt the C: DA squad is a small amount cheaper. It is likely that the increased costs of plasma and specialty CCW will bump the cost of the squad up, but not all that much more. (And while the usefulness of free krak is debatable, you do get free frag and krak).

I don't want to start a debate about the points increases of las/plas and sergeant wargear; it's been done to death. IMHO it's not a big deal, but opinions differ.

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2007, 04:58
How are your rhinos going to be cheaper? EA and the rhino discount balance off and you said you don't use PSB..

With the current books:

Codex: Space Marines
Rhino with Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, and Searchlight - 59pts

Codex: Dark Angels
Rhino with Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, and Searchlight - 50pts

Remember, the base cost of a Rhino in Codex: Space Marines is the same as the cost of a DA Rhino (which comes with Smokes and Searchlight)+Extra Armor. You then need to pay extra points for the standard upgrades to the SM Rhino, making it cost 8-9 points more than a similarly-equipped DA Rhino when all is said and done.


Well you can wait for the new marine codex or if you want them right now then move to blood angels or use the dark angels dex for generic marines and get yourself ready for the new SM dex.

Doing fine now, thanks. If you want to see the lists I've been using lately, check out the link in my sig.

Randy
13-08-2007, 05:08
Um.. Now I feel skanked o_o The DA ones are cheaper then BA ones and the only reason is that we get ripped off on EA xD (15 points -is- a bit much..)

Also did you really buy a searchlight or id you just buy smokes? :P

Grand Master Raziel
13-08-2007, 05:17
Um.. Now I feel skanked o_o The DA ones are cheaper then BA ones and the only reason is that we get ripped off on EA xD (15 points -is- a bit much..)

Also did you really buy a searchlight or id you just buy smokes? :P

Check the link. ;) I started buying the Searchlights recently, to get used to having them. I've already had them come in useful. In one game where the Dawn and Dusk roll came up dawn, I used a Rhino to light up a unit that I then proceeded to light up with a Devestator Squad. :cool:

ChaosMaster
13-08-2007, 05:35
So when do I get my 35 pt Rhinos?

I suspect Space Marines will get their 35 pt Rhinos when they can no longer take more than 2 seriously dangerous Independent Characters in a single normal Force Org. army list. In other words, the next time the Codex Space Marines book is revised to fit the way all Codices are now done since the latest Eldar Codex was released late last year.

dodicula
13-08-2007, 09:10
hope you enjoyed the cheaper termies, the (LS Model) new rhinos will arrive as soon as all 5 man squads turn in their Plasma Guns.

shin'keiro
13-08-2007, 19:46
Ok I think we can see the trend here towards cheaper vehicles in the latest DA, BA & Chaos codexes. 35 pt Rhinos with free smoke, Storm Bolter, searchlight and repair ability.

So when do the rest of us see this discount? Hopefully it doesn't roll out only in a new Codex years away.


everyone will see (points wise) cheaper models.. GW are a business and as such they higher the prices (money wise) and lower the points costs to make you buy more - good business if you ask me!

BrainFireBob
13-08-2007, 20:30
Regarding the original question:

What if it's like the Eldar or DA re-writes? No doctrines, but the unit entries expanded to "For X points, the entire unit may be given carapace armor. For y points, the entire army gains a 6+ invulnerable"? That still worth quitting over?

Cacodemon
13-08-2007, 21:03
They best not do away with traits! I only have 2 bolters in my entire army!!

You're really not helping your point, that's just the reason why they should do away with traits.

RevenantX
13-08-2007, 21:10
Actually, the Blood Angel Rhino is 40pts because it comes with over-charged engines; it's not some abitrary cost they slapped on it.

That being said, you can have the 35 point rhino when you don't have the 6pt Plasma pistol in an Assault Squad, the 10 pt Plasma Rifle in a tactical squad and the 15pt Power Fist on vet sarges.

Mythrider
13-08-2007, 21:21
While I agree the Trait system in it`s current form is highly abusable and needs to be revised I can`t see it being removed completely. There has to some incentive to taking a vanilla/Codex chapter over taking BA/DA/BT/SW, at this point the traits are it.

That being said sometime around 2012 (ie. 5th Ed.) would be good, I can live with paying extra for my Rhinos if it means no pre-set squad sizes.

carlisimo
13-08-2007, 21:24
I just don't think anyone's transport should be that cheap, they add so much more flexibility than 35 points represent. Especially for space marines, whose basic squads are pretty damn good for the points and need low speed to be one of their balancing weak points. Eldar transports would cost 3 times as much as 35pt Rhinos... twice as expensive makes sense, but three's getting ridiculous. And a squad of mobile marines is much more of a threat than a squad of mobile Orks for a similar add-on cost.

Not to mention, cheaper Rhinos will just kill jump packs and all-Rhino armies don't strike as very true to form for marines.

Meat Shield
14-08-2007, 01:30
All i can say is Boo frieken Hoo. You guys are sounding a ittle bit selfish to me. You still have one of the best set up armies in the game. The only reason you guys lose is because people design their armies to beat SM's. Everybody else has to pay for thier transports. If anything they should make' em cost more. My transports cost upwards of 130 points. So quit Complainin

EDIT: Damn Carlisimo beat me to it.

Khorne Cob
14-08-2007, 04:10
im guessing you play IG? :D

i agree, however, that a 50- point rhino is very effective. the Chimera can be destroyed by a volley of bolter fire to the sides or the back. a rhino is invinicible to most small arms fire (exepting the Tau, but they're tau) exept for the back. the model looks great, the upgrades are good. I wish i could mount my gaurd in Rhinos instead of the expensieve chimera.... :cries:

Meat Shield
14-08-2007, 04:29
Acually i'm an eldar player but we share the same ideals.

Grand Master Raziel
14-08-2007, 07:05
Acually i'm an eldar player but we share the same ideals.

Pfft. You've got nothing to complain about. You've got a Fast Skimmer Transport with a 10-figure capacity whose armor and (potentially) firepower are comparable to a Predator's. They're expensive because they're so awesome.

Meat Shield
14-08-2007, 07:18
Acually they can carry 12 now. And don't get me wrong i'm not complaining I love em' but lets keep this forum on track. 35 points is just not enough for a transport.

cailus
14-08-2007, 07:37
Yeah, cheap Rhinos are nice, but only if you don't like stacking up on options; when you start adding Extra Armor, H-K Missiles and assorted other goodies, the get expensive fast.

Note, I'm saying this from a Dark Angel's perspective. I like my transports cheap as dirt too.

It's still cheaper than the normal Marine codex. A DA Rhino costs 18 points less than a normal Marine Rhino with the same options.

Urban Knight
14-08-2007, 08:03
Lets not forget when the new Space Marine Codex comes out (Nov 2008) Drop Pods (a far more useful transport imho) will also go up in price.

But at least you get them.

As a (primarily) Chaos Player I still won't use the mobile coffins ... I mean Rhino ... even though it is only 35 points and lament the fact we don't have rules for drop pods or dread claws in the new dex.

Brother Loki
14-08-2007, 10:58
Non-skimmer transports really suffer in 4th ed, because they are so vulnerable to penetrating hits, while the skimmers need to be hit on two consecutive turns (once to stun and once to penetrate) to ever get penetrated if used correctly. That's why Rhinos are getting cheaper. getting cheaper. Now they can't be assaulted from they're less useful, and comparatively more vulnerable than they were in 3rd ed.

fwacho
14-08-2007, 11:26
the guys just siad it. drop pods... drop pod abuse is pretty bad right now. every marine player I see uses them as they've become a no-brainer. droppods will go up to 50 and rhinos down to 35 (we'll get rid of the cheap upgrade (plasma and powerfists) and 35 will be just cheapenough to get marine player to use one another 15 points for extra armor and you have a reliable one.

the question is ... if you have 3 do they need to be reliable? don't foreget the abil out rule for penetrating hits that 15 points really only usefully effects one roll on the glancing table (assuming you are trying to move a squad somewhere)

Colonel Fitzgerald
14-08-2007, 11:45
Ok I think we can see the trend here towards cheaper vehicles in the latest DA, BA & Chaos codexes. 35 pt Rhinos with free smoke, Storm Bolter, searchlight and repair ability.

So when do the rest of us see this discount? Hopefully it doesn't roll out only in a new Codex years away.

There was a time (Rogue Trader) when putting troops into a Rhino was like a free death sentence for them. The Marines in it had better armour saves than the vehicle and there was the chance of almost thermo-nuclear explosion if the hull was breached. WHy people would want the 50 point Rhino made any better since, by comparison it's a great little unit mover, is beyond me. 3 hatches, the ability to fire from the roof without counting as open topped, the fact it self repairs and the way it's much better than most transports BECAUSE AT 50 POINTS its cheap marks it out as a nice vehicle. 35 points for one now? Soon we'll be having Marines in self-repairing terminator armour with a 50% chance of getting back up on a Chumbawumba save.

MrBigMr
14-08-2007, 15:23
Is there anything official on the new codex? I've heard plenty of stuff on it, but I've also heard it's nothing other than fan ranting. With my luck, now that I've started a marine chapter and I'm going to make my Slaanesh army with the SM codex (as the new CSM codex crapped all my plans), GW comes out with the redux codex and I'll cry blood out of my ass.

Hypaspist
14-08-2007, 21:02
<pokes fun> 50pts is more than adequate for a Rhino, I don't know what you Space Marine players are complaining about ;-) </pokes fun>

Honestly though chaps 50 points? you get front and side armour that strength 5 weapons can only glance (ie very few common ballistics that can be dished out to an entires squad Read 'Bolter')

When you compare that to a Dark Eldar Raider which costs more (ok it can move faster) but can be completely raped by bolter fire (due to sheer weight of dice) and being open topped and a skimmer has very little chance of survival once glanced, I think its a pretty good deal.

Randy
14-08-2007, 21:53
But with a raider you're in position after your first turn.

Grand Master Raziel
14-08-2007, 22:32
Acually they can carry 12 now. And don't get me wrong i'm not complaining I love em' but lets keep this forum on track. 35 points is just not enough for a transport.

I think, most of the time, we'll be seeing them fielded with Extra Armor, thus making them cost 50pts. The Pintle Storm Bolter is reasonably priced now, too, so 55pt Rhinos with that upgrade might be fairly common.


the fact it self repairs...

Waiting around for your Rhino to re-mobilize is an idiot's choice. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had that happen.


I'm going to make my Slaanesh army with the SM codex (as the new CSM codex crapped all my plans)

Since you haven't started the army yet, instead of designing it around the current SM dex, having it change in year and getting bent out of shape about it, why don't you rethink your army so it'll be in compliance with the Chaos dex that's being released in a couple weeks?


But with a raider you're in position after your first turn.

Plus, it's got a Dark Lance - a BS4 Dark Lance too, if I'm not mistaken.

Randy
14-08-2007, 22:47
The new chaos codex is out now - or at least in the apoc set it is.. :P

MrBigMr
14-08-2007, 22:49
Since you haven't started the army yet, instead of designing it around the current SM dex, having it change in year and getting bent out of shape about it, why don't you rethink your army so it'll be in compliance with the Chaos dex that's being released in a couple weeks?
I've seen the new CSM codex and I did try to make the army with it, but it was impossible with that codex. SM codex gave me all I needed and more. Unless the possible new codex removes terminators, veterans, assault marines, tactical marines, librarians, masters or scout snipers, I have nothing to worry about.

Screw it, I'm tired of worrying about this and that. I've already made an SM army that'll get so effed up if GW drops the traits, so I don't care anymore. Come one, ruin all my fun. I'll just buy a straight out of the box vanilla Ultramarines. Oh, the fun.

Grand Master Raziel
15-08-2007, 04:25
I've seen the new CSM codex and I did try to make the army with it, but it was impossible with that codex. SM codex gave me all I needed and more. Unless the possible new codex removes terminators, veterans, assault marines, tactical marines, librarians, masters or scout snipers, I have nothing to worry about.

I'm still not understanding. Of the list you just gave, the only thing that the upcoming Chaos Dex doesn't have a pretty close equivalent to is the Scouts. Of the rest:

Terminators-Terminators
Veterans-Chosen
Assault Marines-Raptors
Tactical Marines-Chaos Marine Squads
Librarians-Sorcerors
Masters-Lords

So, what in the heck are you doing with Codex: Space Marines that you can't do as well or better with Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

stecal
15-08-2007, 05:20
Why spend the 15 pts for extra armor? For 35 pts you get a transport for one turn, blow smoke. Next turn you have terrain!

grickherder
15-08-2007, 06:06
For Chaos, especially when Daemonic Possession is only 5 points more. Get rid of those drivers and have the sorcerer put an unclean one in the glove compartment, ASAP!

alex03
15-08-2007, 06:46
Honestly though chaps 50 points? you get front and side armour that strength 5 weapons can only glance (ie very few common ballistics that can be dished out to an entires squad Read 'Bolter')


You dont play against eldar that much, do you?
"How many str 6 shots is THAT?!?!"
Even str 5 is pretty common, tau have it basic and everyone else has plentifull heavy bolters.

anyways, i think 35 points for a rhino is about right. It gets you about 6 iches of extra movement for one turn before its a terrain peice, and then it kills some of the troops inside and entagles them for a turn, negating the extra movement you just gained. So 35 points to put a peice of terrain 12" from you deployment zone sounds good.

Urban Knight
15-08-2007, 07:49
i think 35 points for a rhino is about right. It gets you about 6 iches of extra movement for one turn before its a terrain peice, and then it kills some of the troops inside and entagles them for a turn, negating the extra movement you just gained. So 35 points to put a peice of terrain 12" from you deployment zone sounds good.

I would buy loads of Rhinos for my Tau. How great would that be 35 points and I have a fire base to Jump - Shoot - Jump from.

If only I could ... curse the Tau's superior anti grav tech. Curse you earth caste engineers.

MrBigMr
15-08-2007, 08:49
I'm still not understanding. Of the list you just gave, the only thing that the upcoming Chaos Dex doesn't have a pretty close equivalent to is the Scouts. Of the rest:
The force uses drop pods, sonic weapons on terminators and on the lord's suit (storm bolter is like sonic blaster but without the Heavy 3), they have scouts, they hunt the Eldar (Suffer Not The Alien To Live), the sorcerer has the ability to dampen psychic things and signatures (psychic hood, though I don't remember if Chaos one gets it too), etc.

There are more reasons too. Why I must have it that way? Because of the fluff. I ain't going all GW on it and rewriting the whole 1 and a 1/2 novels (and rethinking the 1 and a 1/2 in the making) in order to fit the new army list. I made my choices and I'm sticking to them.


So, what in the heck are you doing with Codex: Space Marines that you can't do as well or better with Codex: Chaos Space Marines?
With the old codex I could have had an XV8 suit as a Chaos Lieutenant, the lord could have had dual lightning claws and a sonic blaster, Leman Russ Annihilators as Heavies and sonic blasters with heavy weapons. But it seems fate didn't agree with that.