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View Full Version : What % of an army runs away in a typical battle



DivingPhoenix
13-08-2007, 06:28
I don't like running and breaking concepts.

cleansingfury
13-08-2007, 06:43
Hey man in the future be a bit more clear. Like in your first post restate the question and elaborate.

0% of my army runs. I play space marines with ld10. I am also starting daemon hunters who never run!

GR_Zombie
13-08-2007, 07:26
Running away from combat isn't too big an issue in 40k. Basically, they either run away and are subsequently killed by their pursuers, they run and escape, or they don't run at all. It depends on what army you play as and against how often any of these things happen. In my (admittedly limited) experience, running away doesn't happen very often.

Weazle
13-08-2007, 08:38
I play Orks. They quite often break and run for it, but not before theyve taken heavy cassualties.

lord_blackfang
13-08-2007, 09:23
The occasional squad may break from combat, but nothing runs off table.

Lord Malek The Red Knight
13-08-2007, 09:37
IG: nothing runs away. either because i have Ld 9 across the army, or because you cant run if you are dead. :p

Eldar: maybe 1 unit per game will fall back for a turn or two (shooting back at the enemy as they go).

some armies can be completly Fearless, and others can be close to Fearless too - put it this way, people complain that Morale doesnt play a big enough part in the game. ;)

~ Tim

static grass
13-08-2007, 09:53
For my eldar virtually nothing. You could remove the entire morale check for shooting thing from the rules and no one would notice.

Axel
13-08-2007, 11:24
When I still played guards (I am now requisitioned by the Inquisition) my guards tended to run a lot. At least they tried. I always went for numbers over quality, so many had Ld8 or even 7. On the other hand, those running away were most often then not the only survivors :-)

Winimperial
13-08-2007, 19:40
My guard tend to run alot. Its usually late game when my Senior Officer or other leadership modifiers have been killed off that they head for the hills. Its worse for me because I don't tend to move my guard a lot so they can shoot their HWs each turn and that makes them very close to the table edge.

It really depends on what army and also on what leadership modifiers they have. SM tend to never run because they have ATSKNF.

max the dog
13-08-2007, 21:29
My nids never run but I've seen marines run off the board. Even they can fail a leadership check to shooting now and then and when they do it's not a bright idea to position them 2" from the table edge because you're scared of genestealers.

carlisimo
14-08-2007, 00:21
It actually bothers me how little running away there is in 40k - morale is the basis of all the serious wargames.

In the old days (maybe up to WWI, maybe up to the 1700s) the vast majority of casualties were taken after one side broke and ran. Or so said a number of old books I had, some on war, some on wargames (it's impossible to find the right words to enter into a search engine to find this information... I've been trying). I don't know how casualties work in modern warfare, but I'd bet retreating is still a pretty big deal.

Besides that quasi-argument which I'm not prepared to actually make, I just think it'd add more to the game if it were easier to force enemy squads out of position, and if one breaking squad strongly affected the morale of other squads.

Rhamag
14-08-2007, 01:23
Just did a little bit of MathsHammer for fun.

This is the probability of a unit passing different numbers of morale checks in a sequence. I know most games won't end with 10 morale checks for most units (!) but it made the graph look tidier.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h320/Rhamag/Warhammer%2040K/Image3.jpg

Randy
14-08-2007, 02:04
Err... Hate to sound like a tard.. But I thoguht if you failed your priority check you jsut shot the nearest target and didn't fall back?

Rhamag
14-08-2007, 02:24
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, I wasn't refering to Ld checks for target priority. If a unit took enough casualties from shooting and survived to fail enough assaults then several morale checks could be made which might end up with the unit falling back when they eventually fail one.

Master Bait
14-08-2007, 02:26
my first game, back into 40k was a coupla months back and it was depressing watching my mate's wolf priest accompanied with a number of wolf guard, get shot at by tau, fail their morale check and fallback off the board, on the first turn of shooting.

lesson learnt

zeep
14-08-2007, 02:29
Wow.

You mean there are actually armies that are not fearless / synapse / reroll / Bonded / Special Character... (ad infinitum).

At times I think the only army that actually suffers psychology is necrons.

Of course I play bugs... so pot, kettle :cries:

Rhamag
14-08-2007, 02:33
My orks run all the time, but it's just part of the fun of playing orks. They usually mob-up anyway. No idea if that'll stay in for the new codex though. Just have to adapt if it goes I guess!

The graph does show that Ld 8 is worth a few points for stuff like big horns I think.

Gaius_Baltar
14-08-2007, 02:45
My IG rarely fall back because; I give them all a vox system with a master vox for the HQ command squad, in which the officer has Iron Dicipline. Since whoever's using his leadership passes stuff automatically, My whole army gets that because they use his leadership though the Vox Casters.

Laughingmonk
14-08-2007, 06:08
Morale plays a big part in cityfight, because smaller units can take objectives, and being able to drive units off of their objective (or ridiculous cover saves) wins you the game.

(Of course, Cities of death is better than regular 40k at all things.)

I've had marines fall back plenty of times, mostly cause they were hideously outnumbered, and under half strength, meaning at the time they were testing at ld 5, even with a company master on the board.

Morale can play a big part of the game if you know how to exploit it. If you're expecting ultra-zealous space marines to get squeaimish when they start taking casualties from enemy fire, or to lose their discipline even when losing a combat, then you would be appropriately proven wrong.

Funny thing is, there are plenty of armies that suffer psychology rules: ALL of them.

They just work differently in each army. Guard morale works differently from space marine morale, which works differently from tyranid or tau morale.

Honestly, all Fearless/Ld10 with reroll means to me is that I can freely perform a dump ex at point blank range and they will never fall back out of assault range. All ATSKNF means to me is that they can still fall back (unless there's a company master.... in which case he needs to be killed, so you can force the little 2 man combat squads without sgts to test at ld 7 and have a reasonable chance to lose a round of firing with their have weapons), and of course can still be pinned.

Tyranids are fearless.... Until you kill key synapse creatures and they start running torwards another one (won a few games because of this one)

Guard can be pretty fearless..... Until you kill their officers, which, really, isn't that hard for some armies. Plus, guard pays points for this.

Ethereals have their obvious disadvantages, and while being in vehicles really makes up for a lot of this, Having your entire army in trasports has its own game to be played. They also pay for bonding knives.


That's just a few examples. Just because the game doesn't have super detailed morale rules doesn't mean it has no effect on the game.

Granted, I wish there was fear/ terror, stupidity, etc. Not that they should be copy pasted from fantasy. Maybe some more effects from shooting/pinning.

Davachido
14-08-2007, 06:27
I think morale is fine for now in this game considering armies are so much smaller than in fantasy, in 1500 I have 31 men, in fantasy 1500 I have over 100 men. So if one squad goes you pretty much have a bigger % of your army running except if your a horde army.

As for running away I'm fine with but things like pinning should really not be tied to leader ship, if your pinned you are trying to avoid suppressing fire. So I would have thought this would be more reliant on your reflexs, so an I test instead of Ld. I know there's the argument as well that the leader thinks its not safe to go out so he holds his men back.

Weapons in general should have a leadership modifier depending on their weapon type. For example if the squad has to make a morale test, then the last thing that shot at them would modify their morale: rapid fire/pistol doesn't modify leadership, flammer/blast -1 leadership, heavy/assault if more than 3 shots -2 leaderhip, large blast/ordance -3 leadership.

This makes you think more at which guns fire to which targets. I'm not saying the system I just explained is perfect but something similar to that.

TheSanityAssassin
14-08-2007, 06:46
For my Eldar it seems to be about 10% a game for 9 of my 10 games, and then the other 90% runs in the 10th one.....I failed 16 morale checks out of 17 (only one lower than 9) in a tourny a couple months ago. Needless to say I was quickly out of contention for first overall...

Higgen
14-08-2007, 12:05
My IG rarely fall back because; I give them all a vox system with a master vox for the HQ command squad, in which the officer has Iron Dicipline. Since whoever's using his leadership passes stuff automatically, My whole army gets that because they use his leadership though the Vox Casters.

I hate to say this, but things like Iron Discipline and Fearless from Trademark items aren't passed through the Vox. It's the third to last bullet point in the Guard FAQ. The regular leadership is all that is allowed to be used, with the exception of the Commissar bonus, which is passed. But, keep in mind that you can use the leadership for Leadership tests as well as Morale tests, which is something most armies aren't allowed. The Company Standard is also one of the most effective morale tools of the Imperial guard, but keep in mind that there are units that it doesn't work on, such as Conscripts and Stormtroopers.

I very rarely fall back because I include Sister allies in my IG list, which gives me access to the Book of Saint Lucius. This is easily the best piece of morale warfare in the game. The ability to completely ignore modifiers is just disgustingly good. Tyranids have the ability to outnumber you 4:1 on a consistent basis. This is a hugely powerful ability that decimates things like Necron armies if used effectively. Even Space Marines would do well to be scared, because that's often 4 free wounds for the Tyranid player. But Sisters and their allies don't care one whit; it's awesome.