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Reflex
14-08-2007, 10:06
I took a break from 40k to get up to speed with FOW and now i have come back for a bit of fun, hopefully.

after reading the BA dex, if you would call it that, i have been hearing that space wolves will be done in the same way.

comparing to the other chapters this is poor form from GW, IMO.

start with when marines first got re done for 4th ed. the ultramarines came with a complete new set of minis. (honour Guard, war vets so on and so forth) then we had BT's. they came with some mega sweet plastics. then we recently got DA's, once again, sweet minis. then we get BA's. once again they get a supplement style codex, rather like a pamphlet, but this time they get no new mini's, just increased prices (gotta love those stupid increases).

so my question is, will pups get this poor pathetic excuse of a codex like BA's? dose anybody know?

in the time i have been away it seems GW are still blind to there huge faults and fail to take action. and yes, i know how negetive my post is, but there dosnt seem to be much positive things to say about GW latly.

cheers

Hellebore
14-08-2007, 10:10
The space wolves aren't really overpowered at the moment, so a 'nerf' would make them underpowered. GW isn't going to be applying random depowering to the codex just because.

The BA codex is a stopgap until they produce a proper one. It's had no attention for 9 years, and required much more alterations to make it more balanced whilst the space wolves work fine the way they are at the moment.

Hellebore

Ktotwf
14-08-2007, 10:11
Man I HOPE the Space Wolves get updated the same way the Blood Angels did.

Reflex
14-08-2007, 10:14
i dont want to be to negetive... i know it comes across very negetive, i just find myself disapointed with GW constantly.

but, there is one army i love to play for 40k, and its the pups, i jsut want to see them have some great new mini's, a great dex just to get them up to speed with 4th ed. i think they are a great army, and 40k is a fun game.

i think i can sum up my situation as saying i love the game but hate the company, so i will try to keep my hate for the company out of it, i just dont want to see a great army hard done by.

HiveFleetEzekial
14-08-2007, 10:14
Please note, as many othrs seem to have not cought yet...

That is not going to be *the* full codex, or the only thing BA are going to get this edition. It's simply a place holder, a cracker to satiate the BA hunger for new rules, while they're currently far too busy with other things to work on doing a full fledged (with new minis and sculpts to back it up) release for them right now. This was also to confrim that changes made in SM structure for the DA codex *are* going to happen across the board, in some way or another. Also, they don't want to go over their 1 SM per year limit... they know all the other armies will pitch a fit if they do.

BA, and SW, will eventually get a full codex, when GW get to it on their schedule. (BA next year, SW the year after) And if anything, being the last to get an update, and furthest from the original inception of the new formatting, SW will be the least 'nurfed' of all. Then there's the C:SM (Redux) they've got to work on to hammer core SM back in line with the new(read: old/original) ways.



_edit_ Dang long winded explainations and rambling.. Thanks hellbore :P lol beat me to the punch :D

Hulkster
14-08-2007, 10:16
first off the BA codex is free so you cant really complain

second it is a very good and well thought out codex IMHO

third it is only a temp codex that is to be used until they release the proper one sometime in the future, because it is getting a whole new proper codex, there is no point trying to rush new models for this mini-dex since they are in the process of redoing chaos now, orks in DEC/JAN and they are doing Apoc in OCT.

As for SW, they will be getting a new dex and yes I suppose they will be nerfed a little to bring them into line with others codices (DA, BA Mini-DEx, Eldar).

Also bare in mind that all the the codices before the eldar one will be re-done after all of the new ones are made (except for the new SM one which is supposed to come out end of next year)

fwacho
14-08-2007, 10:24
The BA codex ain't a nerf. I wiped the floor with a mech guard army first time I tried it out. ('course his dice weren't doing anything to help him) i would assume the pups will get the spacemarine standard (pistol and nades, and searchlight and smokes) beyond that it's anyones guess. I have a feeling it will be a real non-standard marine army.

Davachido
14-08-2007, 10:57
I don't think BA's were nerfed that much, the only thing that kinda ticks me off they take our special ability give it to vets of vanilla marines and then they take it away from us. :mad:

Anyway BA's codex was well thought out to have the mad crazy lists rid of, come on 200 points for a chaplain with possibly 6 DC with jump packs, + any other made, that I found can be quite overpowering. They fixed OC engines (yes!) and made some good changes to the codex as a whole a 'rigid' codex like the DAs.

With the pups I think some things may go but don't be dishearted I'm sure their fluffy units will stay. If you're on the line of thinking 'chaos got cults ripped to shreds, what's going to happen to use?!' don't worry pups didn't have subsections like that so you'll be safe on that side. What they will do is balance the point costs a bit and limit the min-maxing characters (so your armory will be like BA and DA is going to shrink .... a lot) and probably give you combat squads.

BDJV
14-08-2007, 11:05
Combat squads for the wolves? I surely hope not. Wolves seem to mostly need some points adjustments and maybe a few tweaks.

Where I think the Wolves will probably feel it the most with the redo is in the Wolf Guard and HQ armories.

Escaflowne_Z
14-08-2007, 11:13
Who says the new BA are underpowered? My boys in red have done just fine since the new list came out, and it's nice to have a balanced, up to date armylist.

GavT
14-08-2007, 11:21
It's important to bear in mind one of the reasons behind Jervis' approach to the Dark Angels and Blood Angels lists. They are both essentially 'Codex' Chapters in organisation, with a few ruffles to make them unique - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Death Company are the obvious differences. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are the poster boys of the unorthodox Chapters. They exist to be an exemplar of the Chapters that don't follow the Codex Astartes. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines, Long Fangs are not Devastators, Blood Claws are not Assault Marines. Their reason for being is to work differently to the standard Space Marine squads. Any future army list would embody this idea just as much as the current one.

On a more practical note, the Space Wolves army list is virtually self-contained and there's a lot less conflict with Codex: Space Marines than there was with the Blood Angels. The difficulty of interpreting the Blood Angels list in conjunction with the updated Space Marines does not exist with the Space Wolves to the same degree.

Cheers,

GAV

Davachido
14-08-2007, 11:23
Combat squads for the wolves? I surely hope not. Wolves seem to mostly need some points adjustments and maybe a few tweaks.

Where I think the Wolves will probably feel it the most with the redo is in the Wolf Guard and HQ armories.

I'm not sure about all the fluff behind the wolf but they are still loyal marines so they will follow some of Codex astrates so possibly give combat squads, but don't get me wrong it doesn't mean that all their squads will be limited to 5 or 10 men strong. The DC and VAS for BA have combat squads but may be from anywhere from 5-10 (more for the case of DC) they will just have the options to divide into combat squads.

The_Outsider
14-08-2007, 11:46
SW won't get BA treatment - they are a non codex chapter so you'll probably be thinking something like black templars minus armoury.

But yeah, as it is the core of the SW list is very solid, all (IMO) that really need doing (to keep up the rend) is to rip the armoury off and stick in the unit specific upgrades.

asmodai_dark86
14-08-2007, 12:48
If they get combat squads, then they'll have to limit it to Grey hunters, at which point it becomes pointless - if you want a five man squad then take a five man squad as a second troop option. Blood claws wont have it as they dont have the training, and long fangs dont come in big enough squad.

Loyaltys got nowt to do with it - its the way they fight and have always fought and no damn fool of an Adeptus is going to tell them other wise :D

Seriously though theres very little Id want to change in the list - Lose the leman russ (which'd then allow generic formations - possibly even heretic formations with the blood claws reresenting bezerker-esque units and the wolf guard representing chosen as they were in the last edition)

Maybe tweek unit selection so it has to be more rounded - perhaps allowing long fangs not to take up a heavy support slot if you take a grey hunter and blood claws squad.

eyeslikethunder
14-08-2007, 13:26
It's important to bear in mind one of the reasons behind Jervis' approach to the Dark Angels and Blood Angels lists. They are both essentially 'Codex' Chapters in organisation, with a few ruffles to make them unique - Deathwing, Ravenwing, Death Company are the obvious differences. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are the poster boys of the unorthodox Chapters. They exist to be an exemplar of the Chapters that don't follow the Codex Astartes. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines, Long Fangs are not Devastators, Blood Claws are not Assault Marines. Their reason for being is to work differently to the standard Space Marine squads. Any future army list would embody this idea just as much as the current one.

On a more practical note, the Space Wolves army list is virtually self-contained and there's a lot less conflict with Codex: Space Marines than there was with the Blood Angels. The difficulty of interpreting the Blood Angels list in conjunction with the updated Space Marines does not exist with the Space Wolves to the same degree.

Cheers,

GAV


Good to hear that from a GW staff member. Looks like we will retain our uniqueness and rebellious ways. Sounds like no combat squads then(not fluffy).

The DA/BA list were about making them in line with their fluff (and balanced) which they were not before.

dean
14-08-2007, 13:31
If they get combat squads, then they'll have to limit it to Grey hunters, at which point it becomes pointless - if you want a five man squad then take a five man squad as a second troop option. Blood claws wont have it as they dont have the training, and long fangs dont come in big enough squad.

Loyaltys got nowt to do with it - its the way they fight and have always fought and no damn fool of an Adeptus is going to tell them other wise :D

Seriously though theres very little Id want to change in the list - Lose the leman russ (which'd then allow generic formations - possibly even heretic formations with the blood claws reresenting bezerker-esque units and the wolf guard representing chosen as they were in the last edition)

Maybe tweek unit selection so it has to be more rounded - perhaps allowing long fangs not to take up a heavy support slot if you take a grey hunter and blood claws squad.

Jimminy Christmas... Gav just said that the SW army structure will not look anything like a codex chapter. He is a Dev, he should know.


Good to hear that from a GW staff member. Looks like we will retain our uniqueness and rebellious ways. Sounds like no combat squads then(not fluffy).

The DA/BA list were about making them in line with their fluff (and balanced) which they were not before.

IMhO The DA got a buff actually. After the 3.0 version of our dex they were nearly unplayable (termies especially). Codex DA 3.1 went a short way to fix that but this 'dex (4.1) has given me the best results I have ever had... Nerfed it may be but it fits my playstyle very well and I am 3/1/1 with it.

And thanks Gav. I look forward to mixing it up with my (friendly rivalry) brothers.

Brimstone
14-08-2007, 13:35
I just want the 13th company to be included. *Hopeful*

Randy
14-08-2007, 13:36
I think all that will change in the SW codex will be points mainly to try and balance things off, the armoury (well, that overlaps) will come more in line with BA - that is to say certain things will become named charecters only.

Other then that I don't see much changing except a few tweaks to rules in the name of balance.

eyeslikethunder
14-08-2007, 13:45
I didnt say they got nerfed i said they were balanced. I just think points got corrected to the right level.


Me too brimstone.

Randy my thoughts exactly just some adjustments to the cost of items vehicles

Alpharius
14-08-2007, 13:47
I just want the 13th company to be included. *Hopeful*

Of course they'll be in there!

I mean, it is opportunity for another unit with rending after all!

dean
14-08-2007, 13:51
Sorry elt. Didnt say you did. Others have however and I didnt want this thread to turn into something Brimmy would have to close.

The_Outsider
14-08-2007, 14:08
I just want the 13th company to be included. *Hopeful*

I have the feeling we'll suddenly start seeing codex grey SW again.

I do hope the 13th make it in but I highly doubt it.

SamaNagol
14-08-2007, 14:19
If the 13th Co. dont make it in I will have to protest at Lenton or wherever the head office is now.

Hellebore
14-08-2007, 14:26
The way they've been streamlining armies, I'd imagine that Wulfen will be an Elite unit.

They will probably have something like the MotRW/DW where you take a Wolf
Lord with mk of the wulfen (or perhaps a special 13th company lord character) and he makes wolf guard units troops choices or something (which is effectively what a grey slayer is in the first place).

Hellebore

SamaNagol
14-08-2007, 14:33
I really REALLY don't want to see Wulfen in a proper SW army. That's...... heresy!

Bestial Fury
14-08-2007, 14:44
I'm not sure about all the fluff behind the wolf but they are still loyal marines so they will follow some of Codex astrates so possibly give combat squads, but don't get me wrong it doesn't mean that all their squads will be limited to 5 or 10 men strong. The DC and VAS for BA have combat squads but may be from anywhere from 5-10 (more for the case of DC) they will just have the options to divide into combat squads.

Roboute said "you will comply with these rules" and Russ said "Shove it! We'll butcher the foes of the Imperium our own way"

That's all the fluff you need to know. ;)

I'll also chime in that I hope the 13th company is included in a way where they can maintain their character.

At the very least don't have them swallowed up by a big daemon ala the squats!

Hellebore
14-08-2007, 14:51
I really REALLY don't want to see Wulfen in a proper SW army. That's...... heresy!

You can give the mark of the wulfen to one model in the SW army right now, so they still exist in a military capacity.

I would imagine it would be a 0-1 unit, but the special character/lord with MotW removes the limitation or something.

I don't think they will have 2 army lists side by side, so they are going to have to combine the two if they include the 13th at all.

Personally I'm hoping for a combining, better than nothing...

Hellebore

neXus6
14-08-2007, 14:54
Having played against BAs recently they so didn't get nerfed at all. :p

Hmm, Puppies seem to function okay as they are really, I cant see them combat squading and stuff like that which BA were given. So I'd assume they would only need minor tweaks at most.

SamaNagol
14-08-2007, 15:04
There was some brief discussion about this before. I really don't want to see units of Wulfen in regular SW lists. That would feel ever so wrong.

Perhaps if you take a Lord with MOTW, or SC Wolf Priest Sternhammer you then change to a 13th Co force and can no longer take any tanks, Blood Claws or Dreadnoughts, but can take Wolf Guard as troops and units of Wulfen as Elites. It just needs the right wording and would only require one extra unit entry instead of a whole new list.

victorpofa
14-08-2007, 15:59
I'm not sure about all the fluff behind the wolf but they are still loyal marines so they will follow some of Codex astrates so possibly give combat squads, but don't get me wrong it doesn't mean that all their squads will be limited to 5 or 10 men strong. The DC and VAS for BA have combat squads but may be from anywhere from 5-10 (more for the case of DC) they will just have the options to divide into combat squads.

Like Bestial Fury said, Russ took the copy of his new Codex Roboute Guilliman sent him and used it for toilet paper. BA and DA are Codex chapters while the Black Templars and Space Wolves are not.


There was some brief discussion about this before. I really don't want to see units of Wulfen in regular SW lists. That would feel ever so wrong.

Perhaps if you take a Lord with MOTW, or SC Wolf Priest Sternhammer you then change to a 13th Co force and can no longer take any tanks, Blood Claws or Dreadnoughts, but can take Wolf Guard as troops and units of Wulfen as Elites. It just needs the right wording and would only require one extra unit entry instead of a whole new list.

Something like this seems more likely than two lists. Here's hoping they integrate 13th Company into the new codex, and keep the Exterminator :)

Chaplain Dionitas
14-08-2007, 18:54
I also hope they integrate the 13th in. I've got about 30 unpainted SW models I could easily convert.

That'd make my SW army ready for apocolypse! Wooooo!

Joewrightgm
14-08-2007, 19:03
If I had to guess, Space Wolves would get combat squads, the armory would disapear into the entry specific to each character, the Librarians would prolly get beefed a little, some manner of comp rule allowing you to take Wulfen as troops.

But other than that, the Space Wolves would have more flexibly sized units, and use the codex as toilet paper.

BDJV
14-08-2007, 19:26
I highly doubt Wolves will get the combat squads rule.

Brother-Hyuuga
14-08-2007, 19:27
I could see them basing the number of assault weapons, or power weapons, and fists off the size of the squad you take.

Modhail
14-08-2007, 19:28
I really do hope the Space Wolves won't get taken to the vet....

They're one of my favorite Marine Chapters, and I think the should be done justice. I only hope there'll be awesome new models that will lessen the loss of "flavour and feel" from the "streamlining" and maybe even tempt me into doing an army of them....

Bye, Modhail

SamaNagol
14-08-2007, 19:30
I can pretty much guarantee SW won't get the Combat Squads rule, especially as they can't take Heavy Weapons in Grey Hunter squads

Lord Inquisitor
14-08-2007, 19:38
I'm not sure about all the fluff behind the wolf but they are still loyal marines so they will follow some of Codex astrates so possibly give combat squads, but don't get me wrong it doesn't mean that all their squads will be limited to 5 or 10 men strong. The DC and VAS for BA have combat squads but may be from anywhere from 5-10 (more for the case of DC) they will just have the options to divide into combat squads.

As I recall, the Space Wolves were the first Space Marine Chapter to diverge from the "combat squads" rule in 2nd Edition. I highly doubt they would give them combat squads - they've never had them as I remember.

I would expect the Space Wolve codex to be in-line with the new codexes though. So expensive assaultcannon and lascannon, cheap rhinos, etc. I would also expect True Grit to be gone and for Grey Hunters to have bolt pistol, bolter and chainsword.

Probably more streamlining and much less army special rules. Things like Blood Claw charge could be simplified to just Furious Assault or whatever.

Hulkster
14-08-2007, 19:39
SW will not get the Combat squad rule

also each squad will get more options

if they do not then they will not be SW.

there is nothing indicating that his will happen (in fact the op has occured with GavT sayiing what he said)

so let us be happy

Polonius
14-08-2007, 19:46
I actually really like the new BA. As a stop gap, it's a beautiful job, both visually and rules wise. I don't agree with the current fixation on combat squads, but I'm not a Dev or a Fluff guru, so my say amounts to very little. I like that they can be all jump pack. I like the new death company, it's elegant and incredibly killy.

In short, the new BA codex is one of the best things GW has done in the last year, though I'm hoping beyond hope that Apocolypse is awesome, and despite my comments on other threads, I think the new chaos will be awesome for new players building new armies.

Snorphel
14-08-2007, 21:08
What I like about the BA and DA is that both armies promote a strong 'style of play' - the BA jumping/rushing at the enemy and butchering them in h-t-h, and the DA coming up with sophisticated unit cooperation tactics.

The Wolves would be fun as 'hunters' working in small packs to take down the enemy. Actually I never liked the rhino-rush space wolves armies, and with my own Wolves I try to avoid vehicles (save dreadnoughts) as often as possible.

Infiltration, move through cover and such rules would make nice 'hunters'.

Cartographer
14-08-2007, 21:39
What I like about the BA and DA is that both armies promote a strong 'style of play' - the BA jumping/rushing at the enemy and butchering them in h-t-h, and the DA coming up with sophisticated unit cooperation tactics.

That's odd, I took one look at the BA list and I immediately thought they'd been re-imagined as a mechanised force, with the focus on fast vehicles with lots of punch rather than the assault-y army they had been.
I mean come on, they can squeeze 11 AC and 13 HB in 1500 pts, most mounted on fast vehicles. Even the DA have trouble fielding that much fast firepower.



The Wolves would be fun as 'hunters' working in small packs to take down the enemy. Actually I never liked the rhino-rush space wolves armies, and with my own Wolves I try to avoid vehicles (save dreadnoughts) as often as possible.

Infiltration, move through cover and such rules would make nice 'hunters'.

An infantry focused SW army would be cool, so long as they sort out the suicidal Long Fang vet sgt position, and don't go overboard with power weapons in the Blood Claw and Grey Hunter squads.

Randy
14-08-2007, 21:51
Most of the BA armies Ive seen have revolved around veteran assualt squads (basiclaly assualt marines with 2 attacks), rhino based close range fire support/assualt squads in your troops, baals and attack bikes.

Dreads are non existant now, predator destructors occasionally appear instead of baals, death company are popular point burners.

Snorphel
14-08-2007, 21:58
All these ACs and HBs - nasty way to negotiate with tyranids...

But not particular goot at capturing objectives,

But I was more looking at the option to go all jumpy (assault marines as troops), or all rhino.

Wolflord Havoc
15-08-2007, 00:32
I do not think that BA got Nerfed.

They pretty much on the money - and are now much better balanced, in terms of force selection and cost.

As for a SW redux I see them getting the following

The 1 character per 750 points or part of will probably go.

I see them doing away with the Wolf Guard 'Pool' and instead any unit may add a Wolf Gaurd 'Sgt' upgrade to the unit as part of its options in the same way that an Eldar Aspect warrior Squad can have an Exarch. Also units of Wolf Guard can be taken as Command Squads of 5 with or without attaching the Character etc or as a 5 man Elite unit both with the ability to upgrade to Terminator Armor or increase the number of power armor Wolf guard in the same way as the DA Veteren Squads.

I see the weapon options disappering and a simular weapon choices to the Eldar/ DA / BA lists (which will stuff my combi weapon armed Wolf Guard Terminators mumble mumble mumble).

I see Grey Hunters being 5 strong with the ability to increase by 5 to 10 - Perhaps a semi veteren squad weapon option will be available as per DAs and BAs - i.e. 3 models can take Special weapons or Plasma Pistol or power weapon/fist.

The Blood Claws will be 10 strong with an option for 15. Weapon options will probably be along the lines of 2 or 3 models able to take power weapons/fist - or possibly none at all. Bikes and Jump packs can be taken as upgrades if the unit remains at 10 strong and the unit then becomes a Fast Attack choice.

Long Fangs will be 5 strong with the leader no longer costing double points and the split fire skill being incorporated into the squad rather than a leaders skill. Thier over all points cost will have to reduce as currently they are not as cost effective as other armies heavy weapon troops i.e. no meat shield. I would also love for them to be able to take Special or Heavy weapons.

Space Wolf Scouts. Much as it pains me to admit it....I have to agree that the current method of being able to deploy from the opponents board edge is far too powerful and it is a rare game where they have not paid for themselves several times over in destroyed artillery/Tanks/Farseers etc. This deployment method will have to go - I would replace it with 'May always infiltrate' and possibly a scout move ability - they are after all supposed to be the 'masters' of Space Marine scout sneakyness.

NO COMBAT SQUADS!!! Space Wolves fight in packs. I will fight anyone who disagrees damn you.

Venerable Dreads - pretty much in line with Codex: DA and BA but would love for them to retain the 'old and wise' dice off re-roll.

Characters - remain the same - points cost bought in line with Codex: DA and BA as well as the Iron Priests being bought in line. No JP but can take a Bike. Fenrisian Wolves should remain but as 'wargear' so the character can join units etc.

Tanks / Speeders & Attack bikes/ Rhinos etc as for Codex: DA and BA

All troops will be armed with Frag and Krak as standard

The Space Wolf army skills will remain - i.e True Grit, Acute Senses, Blood Claw Charge etc possibly with Grey Hunters becoming more wiley - maybe a move through cover skill ???

Rune Priest should get better rules. I only ever use them to try to stop enemy Psykics.

Perhaps the following

Spirit Wolves - the Rune Preist casts this on any SW unit within X inches - the spirits of D6 Fenrisian Wolves join the fight for all intents and purposes the SW unit is joined by D6 Fenrisian Wolves and they count for unit Strength, out numbering, losses etc. The D6 Wolves disappear at the beginning of the Space Wolves next turn or if the SW unit routs or is wiped ot leaving just the Spirit Wolves.

SamaNagol
15-08-2007, 00:39
As long as they re-do Ragnar Blackmane and someone who can actually damn well sculpt gets to do the model, I'm happy.

A new Ulrik wouldn't go amiss either.

New plastic sprues would be nice, but I can see them not getting done. I can't really see what they will re-do model wise, seeing as they left the absolutely hideous Khorne Bezerkers alone with the Chaos redux, and everything else is already in plastics now. Maybe a scouts upgrade sprue? Terminator sprue? But I can't see Space Wolves justifying their own Terminator sprue and not Dark Angels.

I just think we will see a new book, and a couple of new metal character models.

MAYBE a Wolf Lord plastic box. That would be nice.

big squig
15-08-2007, 00:58
I highly doubt well see combat squads in SWs. But, I'm guessing the following will change:

- No more HQ per 750pts rule...they will just use the standard FoC.
- Dreads will be elites and can be upgraded to venerable like every other chapter.
- Wolf scouts will be elite. (if they aren't already...can't remember)
- Blood Claws will simply have FC.
- They will lose their outnumbered rule and their haterd towards tzeench (maybe), but they will keep acute senses.
- Every points cost will end in a 5 or a 0.
- The wargear list will be shrunk and incorporated into the army list. There will be no wargear section.
-Wolf Guard will prolly be tweaked to make them easier ot read and calculate and will prolly have a points reduction.
- It will be a full book and have to refrences to the marine codex.

Belisarius
15-08-2007, 02:01
In view of the posted question.... You bet they will. See the way the wind is blowing at GW and you can be sure of it.

Master Bait
15-08-2007, 02:17
Like Bestial Fury said, Russ took the copy of his new Codex Roboute Guilliman sent him and used it for toilet paper. BA and DA are Codex chapters while the Black Templars and Space Wolves are not.

i find the BT situation quite ironic; the IFs got into a fight with the Ultramarines over not wanting to comply to the second founding and codex astartes Roboute drew up. Rogal Dorn eventually complies and what does he do? form a successor chapter that doesn't follow the codex :confused:

The_Outsider
15-08-2007, 02:22
On a special character note, I hope this time round grimnar and ragnar become IC's (as currently they aren't - look it up).

Occulto
15-08-2007, 03:10
In view of the posted question.... You bet they will. See the way the wind is blowing at GW and you can be sure of it.

Which of course means they'll just be on par with everyone else. :p

Tadite
15-08-2007, 03:27
Well I am not sure how anyone would "nerf" the space wolves. They are a incredibly out of date.

I only hope and pray they do as good a job as they did on the BA. A nice complete straight forward and balanced codex. Works for me. They took out what should never have existed and stayed far more true to the fluff then the previous version.

Lucky the SW are much closer in actual list creation to what the fluff proclaims them to be. So most likely all you would need is to figure out how to get th 13 co rules in the codex (wulfon as elites?) and a update to 4th edition for the rest of the stuff.

If anything a updating will make them better. Because god only knows they are horribly overpriced.

BDJV
15-08-2007, 04:16
I really hope the 1 HQ for every 750 points stays, it's very full of character.

Ian Argent
15-08-2007, 05:42
I really hope the 1 HQ for every 750 points stays, it's very full of character.

Full of character, yes. Fit into the force org chart? Not so much.

Reflex
15-08-2007, 08:37
i should have clarifyed what i meant by nerfed.

the army is still as strong as ever, yet they got this quick fix solution so they could be put aside, making them seem totally un important.

Carlos
15-08-2007, 09:01
Unlike every other marine army out there there is actually nothing wrong with space wolves at all. To be honest it would take very little effort from GW to come up with a workable list in WD to appease you space mutt players. Changes? Combat squads are a big no-no. SW are a distinctly none-codex chapter who moreover resemble a warband. The following changes are probably going to make it though:

- Stripped down wargear options for characters. (They did it to the chaos lords) Hopefully Fenrisian wolves wont go however, I always liked them.

- No more HQ-per-500pts rule, just the standard FoC for all or maybe just allowed to take an extra HQ over whatever the mission allows (Makes things easier)

- Wolf Guard gone the way of Chaos Chosen, i.e a seperate entry for both terminators and 'normal' wolf guard with similar options to chaos. SW may end up as te only chapter who can take 5-10 terminators in a squad. That would be interesting...

- More powers for the Rune Priest

- Wolf Scouts to remain with the same special rule

- Iron Priest to become like the tech marine and not take up a FoC slot

- Combat squads dont need applying as Blood Claws and Grey Hunters cannot take heavy weapons anyway.

- Hopefully the leman russ will remain as a conversion option.

BDJV
15-08-2007, 09:17
Full of character, yes. Fit into the force org chart? Not so much.

Yeah, it's been that way forever, now it's an issue? In this era of standardization I guess it might be.

Oh, I forgot Space Wolves are so overpowered because of it. :rolleyes:

It's not always a great thing either, sometimes I'd rather have more troops.

Bjorn Stormwolf
15-08-2007, 09:38
I don't believe the basic SW list needs much work, just a little tweaking of points values here and there and a streamlining of the armoury.

New models would be nice, after seeing the new DA sprues for the first time I had to challenge my DA friend to a pre-battle smackdown to show him that brilliant, shiny new models do not a warrior make.

I lost the challenge and the battle....

Captain Micha
15-08-2007, 11:58
They'll probably get a wargear change, and maybe some point tweaks. Probably some other stuff to that will make them fit easier in fourth edition. But overall I do not see the puppies changing much.

Merreck
15-08-2007, 15:32
The way they've been streamlining armies, I'd imagine that Wulfen will be an Elite unit.

They will probably have something like the MotRW/DW where you take a Wolf
Lord with mk of the wulfen (or perhaps a special 13th company lord character) and he makes wolf guard units troops choices or something (which is effectively what a grey slayer is in the first place).

Hellebore

Taking them under a special character sounds right to me. They won't be in the "main" list because you simply don't see 13th company running with their bretheren. Therefore, a special condition (character) fits. Good call.

Best Regards,

PS Thanks for the post Gav, always nice to know you guys are listening- Also congrats on Chaos!

Ian Argent
16-08-2007, 01:15
Yeah, it's been that way forever, now it's an issue? In this era of standardization I guess it might be.

Oh, I forgot Space Wolves are so overpowered because of it. :rolleyes:

It's not always a great thing either, sometimes I'd rather have more troops.

Oh, I don't see it as a breaker, myself - just that, as you say, we are in an era of more standardized lists. I suspect that there will be a couple of "slotless" characters, however.

zealot!
16-08-2007, 01:47
nothing got nerfed. everyones a critic.

Reflex
16-08-2007, 03:16
nothing got nerfed. everyones a critic.

everyone's a critic because GW seems incapable of satisfying at least 2% of there customer base. so yeah, everyone is a critic... problem?

the only thing that i really care about is models. it would have been nice if GW had of released a BA specific sprue with some little tid bits on it. shoulderpads, tear drops, maybe a rhino door or something, b0ecause it dosnt seem that hard to do, and knowing GW they could have actually made a profit.( :D )

so it's not so much the army list that was nerfed from BA's IMO, it was the army as a whole. just given a quick fix until later, but it always seems that quick fix's never work no matter what the fix is.

by the look of it though, they did do a decent job on tweaking the army list, but its hard to play an army with no models. yes you can paint a space marine red and call him a blood angel, but its the attention to detail that makes the hobby what it is.

zealot!
16-08-2007, 03:25
so get some green stuff, stop typing, and get going on it. if ya love BA's then spend your time on them and make them great. one thing thats awesome about 'no new BA specific models' is the fact that its easy to have a BA army that stands out like crazy if you just put a little effort into it. you've put a lot of effort into this post and you play 40k. why not give a new level of modeling a shot? (not tryin to be offensive here - just direct) :]