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knightime98
15-08-2007, 09:42
I am confused on this issue.

Say, that I have an Arch Lector on a War Altar.
Let's also say that the Arch Lector has opted to take the
doomfire ring.

The Arch Lector gets 2 prayers per turn.
The War Altar get one bound spell from the Altar.

I played against an opponent who said that if I "cast" a RIP "spell" that I can't cast any more spells - otherwise, the RIP goes away.....

In essence, what he was saying is that if the War Altar cast successfully (meaning that it was not dispelled) Guardian Light (RIP) that I could not "casts" any more spells.

Same situation if the Priest uses the RIP prayers (the ward save one, unbending righteousness, Hammer of Sigmar), etc...

Furthermore, if the Priest then uses his bound spell ring the same thing happens....

So, essentially - my question is how does the RIP spells work in conjuction with Bound spells. Can you use bound spells and prayers and have them stack without their effects being taken away as my opponent described.

I read the BRB and it says that bound spells are "casts" just like other spells which will lead me to believe that he is correct.

Maybe, I am missing something here and I am sure that all of you my audience will bring out the finer points of this argument that for whatever reason I have seemed to miss....

Thanks in advance for any clarifications you may have...

Same question for the Battle Wizard who has a RIP and uses he Doomfire Ring afterwards - Will then the RIP spell go away because of the use of the ring???

All for now, look forward to all your replies....

Masque
15-08-2007, 09:50
Your opponent is correct. There is no exception for bound spells as far as RIP is concerned.

NurgleNuts
15-08-2007, 16:48
Sad to say... but true.. Use your RIP spells last as much as possible!! :D Happy Gaming!!!

Ninsaneja
15-08-2007, 22:14
Actually, I do believe it's the war altar casting the spell and not the Arch-Lector, meaning he may have one RIP spell and the altar may have one RIP spell.

Masque
15-08-2007, 23:11
The War Altar has the Golden Griffon item that allows the Arch-Lector to cast a spell. See page 53 of the Empire army book.

Palatine Katinka
15-08-2007, 23:44
Now this is a crazy kettle of fish...
Reading the entry on Bound Spells, a few thing jump out at me.
1. "Possessing a bound spell item does not make a character a Wizard."
2. "The spell held in a magic item is cast in the player's magic phase just like other spells..."
3. "A character cannot have more than one bound spell."

These statements may not seem immediately problematic but here's the issues I have...
1. Not a problem in itself but causes issues later.
2. How are other spells cast? Checking the rules under Casting Spells tells us "to cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spellls to cast and declares the target of the spell." There's also stuff about rolling dice but we know that dice aren't needed for bound spells, they are cast automatically. The problem here is that the character with the bound spell is specifically stated to not become a Wizard and a Wizard is needed in order to cast!

OK, I'll admit that isn't really a problem, we know the guy can use his own bound item without a Wizard showing him what to do but...

3. How many bound spells does that Arch Lector have? more than one is against the rules I'm afraid.

Joking aside, I don't count the prayers as being proper bound spells. They are prayers, they just happen to work the same way as bound spells and in some cases Remains in Play spells. The ring and the Altar, however, I would find a bit dubious.

My belief, the item provides the power for the spell, not the man. So the spell will remain in play until the item attempts to cast again.
Next time your opponent brings this matter up, take a moment to read over the bound spell box out and then remove your Arch Lector from play, apologise profusely for having too many bound spells (Altar and all those prayers, don't take the ring in this situation as it may actually be illegal) and see if he realises how stupid it is.

Urgat
16-08-2007, 11:18
...
So named characters can be used to prove that we can get over 100 points worth of magic items and that doing otherwise would be stupid? Cool, I'll get 300 points for my warlord and point out that a lord of change has more. The Archlector has multiple bound spells because he's an archlector, you know, special rules and all?
You're playing with words and fluff has never worked for explaining rules. The wording is clear:
if you cast a RiP spell, then cast another one, the RiP spell is gone. Now, it is written clearly (such as in your quote) that the bound spell is cast. I think it speaks for itself.
Going against that is going against the rules, and there is hardly any ambiguity there, which is rare enough to be noticed, btw.

sulla
16-08-2007, 20:11
My belief, the item provides the power for the spell, not the man. So the spell will remain in play until the item attempts to cast again.


Of course the bound item provides the pow3er for the spell; it has a 'power level'. The question is whether the item provides the concentration to maintain the spell... If so, surely the death of the character using the item should not affect it?

Palatine Katinka
16-08-2007, 23:33
...
So named characters can be used to prove that we can get over 100 points worth of magic items and that doing otherwise would be stupid? Cool, I'll get 300 points for my warlord and point out that a lord of change has more. The Archlector has multiple bound spells because he's an archlector, you know, special rules and all?

Not sure why you're bringing named characters into this, or magic item limits. Points limits on magic items differ for every character. The limit on bound spells is a rule that applies to everyone. I don't have a problem with the Archlector using multiple prayers, as you mention, its in his rules that he can. I don't even have a problem with him using the war altar's abilities as well since it is an exclusive mount for him (it would be stupid if it couldn't work!). What I have a problem with is someone taking the war altar and a magic item that provides another bound spell.


if you cast a RiP spell, then cast another one, the RiP spell is gone. Now, it is written clearly (such as in your quote) that the bound spell is cast. I think it speaks for itself.
Going against that is going against the rules, and there is hardly any ambiguity there, which is rare enough to be noticed, btw.


Of course the bound item provides the pow3er for the spell; it has a 'power level'. The question is whether the item provides the concentration to maintain the spell... If so, surely the death of the character using the item should not affect it?

Yeah, I suppose. Maybe I'm just too lenient on the old preachers because they seem to never achieve much when I play against them.

DeathlessDraich
17-08-2007, 10:16
Let's also say that the Arch Lector has opted to take the doomfire ring.

I played against an opponent who said that if I "cast" a RIP "spell" that I can't cast any more spells - otherwise, the RIP goes away.....


Yes, this is a rule. Except for Ogre Kingdoms when the wizard *attempts* to cast another spell, previous bound spells are negated - pg 110.



In essence, what he was saying is that if the War Altar cast successfully (meaning that it was not dispelled) Guardian Light (RIP) that I could not "casts" any more spells.

Not true, you, the player, may still cast spells. The War Altar/Lector may still cast its prayers but this would negate Guardian light even if the prayer is dispelled. **



Same situation if the Priest uses the RIP prayers (the ward save one, unbending righteousness, Hammer of Sigmar), etc...
Furthermore, if the Priest then uses his bound spell ring the same thing happens....


As above and see below**.




So, essentially - my question is how does the RIP spells work in conjuction with Bound spells. Can you use bound spells and prayers and have them stack without their effects being taken away as my opponent described.


The 2 questions are actually different. **



Joking aside, I don't count the prayers as being proper bound spells. They are prayers, they just happen to work the same way as bound spells and in some cases Remains in Play spells. The ring and the Altar, however, I would find a bit dubious.
.

Agreed.

**The prayers are not bound spells in *every* respect. They have their own special rules.

Empire pg 53 Prayers: "Prayers *are cast* exactly like bound spells"
i.e. the mechanism of casting is identical to bound spells which is:

BRB pg 121: "Bounds spells are automatically cast".

The other bound spell rules - 1 spell per character etc *cannot* be incorporated into Prayers as there is an immediate contradiction -
The Arch Lector has 2 bound spells and he can cast both since Empire rules permit this.

RIP spells and Prayers:
As others have pointed out, these work coherently with Prayers. The RIP spell is negated when an attempt is made to cast another spell by the same wizard.
It is best to cast the RIP prayers last.
This is a popular tactic by the Empire player at my club:
A Warrior Priest casts Hammer of Sigmar on the Lector and the Lector casts Cleansing Flare, enabling wounds to be re-rolled.
The Lector then casts Righteousness on his Altar making it Unbreakable.

knightime98
17-08-2007, 10:32
"The Lector then casts Righteousness on his altar making it Unbreakable."

Hmmm. Pg. 53 of the empire book says that the Altar is already unbreakable with MR 2 and a 4+ Ward for both the lector and Altar.....

DeathlessDraich
17-08-2007, 10:45
Yes, true it already is. I chose the wrong spell but the gist of it is the Lector casts another prayer.

TheMav80
17-08-2007, 22:16
So anytime ANY other spell is cast a RiP spell goes away? I thought it was only if the same wizard casted another spell.

Masque
17-08-2007, 22:22
So anytime ANY other spell is cast a RiP spell goes away? I thought it was only if the same wizard casted another spell.

You thought correctly. A RiP spell is cancelled when the same wizard (or low fat wizard substitute) casts another spell.

logan054
17-08-2007, 23:13
you can caste another but its wasting a spell so i have a thought use you bound item first them use the rip, you could always use one of teh rip spells to waste his dispel dice, if he ignores it then you have the spell off if he dosnt then its easier to caste another one.