PDA

View Full Version : Dreads and Defilers



vipernyc
15-08-2007, 16:59
I was thinking about the new dreadnaught fire frenzy rules (which are really the OLD dreadnaught fire frenzy rules), and it got me thinking about how having the dreadnaught and defiler in the same list makes one or the other kind of redundant, and the struggle on the designers' part to keep both units relevant actually winds up bringing both of them down.

Dreadnaught Pros:
- larger weapon selection
- WS/BS 4

Dreadnaught cons:
- fire frenzy
- less attacks than a defiler

Defiler Pros:
- More attacks in CC, with free upgrades
- Fleet
-Battle Cannon

Defiler Cons:
-WS/BS 3

I would rather have the defiler lose the battle cannon and gain WS/BS 4, and have the dreadnaught gain battle cannons as an option and lose the fire frenzy. That way, you'd have the dreadnaught doing long range support really well, and the defiler doing close assaults really well, instead of BOTH units half-assing it and bringing each other down.

The Song of Spears
15-08-2007, 17:11
You also should mention that with the defiler half of its abilites are wasted every turn.

fleet = shot shoot
shoot = no fleet
shoot battle cannon = no shoot anything else
shoot normal guns = no shoot battle cannon

= waste of HS slot.

I suggest a greater deamon as a cc support instead of the defiler and obliterators instead of dreadnoughts for bug guns.

silly codex... :rolleyes:

L192837465
15-08-2007, 18:00
personally, the Defiler is FAR better than the dread now. a dreadnought with a twin las and deamonic possession is the same price as a defiler with 5 attacks.

yes ws3 is one worse than 4, but when does that REALLY matter?

deamon princes? hive tyrants? nothing thats NOT a monsterous creature anyways?

the defiler also has a battle cannon. so while you're out of range you can lob s8 ap3 shells at noobs and blow them to bits, taking fire away from the rest of your army the following turn becasue the opposing player wants it dead.

GW made the dread completely worthless. bs4 is great... but who needs a bs when you have a battle cannon?

Caligula
15-08-2007, 18:45
I'm even more of a Defiler fan now, thanks to the apparent new rules(I say apparent simply because I'm still waiting for my codex and army deal to arrive...), which seem to make the Defiler much better.

As Song of Spears has mentioned above, it does seem now that no matter how you use a Defiler in game, half of its' abilities are in fact going to be wasted. So yes, if you're the type that demands 100% efficiency from your units 100% of the time, then the Defiler isn't that attractive.

For me, I make no such demands:) This means something as multi-purpose and potentially havoc-causing as the Defiler is will find a valued place in my forces, much more so than a Dread.

Edit: Oh, and I should say that I definately agree with Song of Spears that a Greater Daemon is a far better close combat choice than a Defiler for the points, but in my case I just don't use Daemons all that much. We'll see how it goes though...

studderigdave
15-08-2007, 18:51
my defiler will see much love in the new era of chaos. i will take mine just naked. no upgrades at all, except the "free" bonus attacks. im just gonna frontline him and let him rip.

ill prolly make my dread a CC variant, taking off his lascannon that he will most likely shoot into my predator and destroy its un-mutated hull.

Caligula
15-08-2007, 19:03
My plan too, studderigdave! I'm not expecting the Defiler to rip it up every game, or even be effective all the time. I have other units to fill those more necessary and reliable roles. The Defiler is there more or less as an embodiment of Chaos on the tabletop; big, scary, and potentially horrifyingly destructive.

Bloodknight
15-08-2007, 19:05
I take it that Dreads now again preferably fire at own guys instead of the enemy when they go nuts?
Consider mine dropped from my list. I remember a game with CSM codex 3rd ed. #1 where a plasma cannon armed dread went nuts and zapped a Predator and 3 bikes in that phase. I never again used it.

Skibbles
15-08-2007, 19:05
I would rather have a guardsmen with a powerfist. Not a waste of Heavy support, although as it looks, there aren't many viable heavies in the new codex anyway if the rumors are true.

It could be my dislike of vehicles though, but a squad of guardsmen would not only be cheaper, but far less of a big fat target to be shot once by a high str weapon and destroyed.

L192837465
15-08-2007, 19:15
any viable heavies?

oblits - gained plasma cannons and multimelta lovin.
predator - autocannon heavy bolter ultra mobile firing platform.
defiler - ultra ULTRA mobile battle cannon until you hit combat and tear them a new one. with flee you have an 18" effective range!

dreadnought: too many points for a single overcosted heavy weapon and mediocre combat ability. whooo.

for the price of it, i'd rater take 3 terminators with a reaper autocannons and 2 combi meltas!

Caligula
15-08-2007, 19:16
Mhmm, that's pretty much the case, Bloodknight...there is a chance your Dread will unload into your own troops. For me, being the type of player I am, this isn't the end of the world, or rather the end of me using Dreads at all. I'm not the most competetive and serious of gamers, as some of you might have already gathered, so a little randomness and friendly fire doesn't burn me too much.

That said, the Defiler is my choice over a Dread pretty much every time now.

Edit: I also disagree with the comment that there aren't many viable HS choices in the new codex. To me, the HS section of the new list is pretty solid. Maybe that's just me though...

vipernyc
16-08-2007, 04:15
I'm a big fan of defilers too - I just feel that the fact that we have a choice between a defiler and a dread winds up making them both worse, because they both need to have advantages over each other. I'd rather just have a more versatile defiler fill the "walking heavy" role that have one choice that is great but could be so much better with a couple of tweaks (defiler) and one that is pretty much useless because its too risky a choice to take.

Stella Cadente
16-08-2007, 04:20
defiler with full CC upgrades, moving 6" every turn, blasting its cannon away at the enemy, and then charging at the last moment

ehlijen
16-08-2007, 04:29
What is so wrong with the chaos dread? Compare its cost and Attacks stat to the loyalist one in DA or BA and it doesn't look so bad. Yes, he might shoot your troops, but he's just as likely to gain free movement. The chaos is less reliable but has greater potential, I think the Dready captured that perfectly.

Stella Cadente
16-08-2007, 04:41
Give a dread 2 CCW's and combi bolters (or 2 flamers IF you can, dunno) and you don't have to worry about it shooting your own troops that much

Sovereign
16-08-2007, 06:10
The Dread & Defiler have totally different roles:
- Dreadnought is CC unit with fire-on-the-move
- Defiler is Artillery with counter-charge

The Dreadnought is good because he has WS4 S10 weapon. And Fire Frenzy is no big deal because he shouldn't be carrying any serious weapon. If he had Battlecannon, that'd be too expensive and dangerous. But with 2 CCWs, he's great, because Fire Frenzy means he tags someone with a twin-Bolter, which can be ignored. The only real mistake here is thinking he's a shooty SM Dread, esp. a DA Dread w/ ML.

The Defiler is very nice because he has Fleet for when he's Shaken and can't shoot. He can Fleet into a better countercharge / support charge position. And he has plenty of extra weapons to ignore Weapon Destroyed. If he's engaged in HtH, he's strong enough and tough enough to hang on until support arrives. As long as you don't fall into the trap of making him pure CC, he'll be fine.

In my CSM, I'll be taking a CC Dread backed by Defiler. It should be good.

Morfesto
16-08-2007, 07:02
The Dread & Defiler have totally different roles:
The Defiler is very nice because he has Fleet for when he's Shaken and can't shoot. He can Fleet into a better countercharge / support charge position.

Ehhh the defiler is possessed, it ignores shaken and stunned :p

vipernyc
16-08-2007, 08:48
Also, while you can certainly make the case that the BEST use for a CSM dread is as a dual CCW assault unit, the fact that there are so many heavy weapons options means to me that it was designed to be an (albeit unpredictable) heavy weapon platform.

I think I should clear up what I'm saying here a little. I think the defiler outclasses the dread in almost every aspect. What I'm saying is that the dreadnaught's very existence drags the defiler down from where it could (and arguably should) be, because since they can both potentially fill the same roles. Since they can do the same thing, there has to be pros and cons to each one in order for you to be able to choose between them.

Fire Frenzy is a pretty big drawback - it pretty much eliminates the idea of keeping the dreadnaught back as a shooter, I mean, do you really want it lobbing plasma cannon shots at your havocs if you happen to roll a 1? IT pretty much renders almost all of the upgrades on the dread useless... so why even have those options at all?

It would be better to just have the defiler fulfill the "shooty/CC walker" role with a statline comparable to the dread's, and have a Frenzy-free (or at least current 3rd ed. frenzy) dread be either a 0-1 elites choice like the venerable dreadnaught, or a special character a la Bjorn the Fell-handed.

Voss
16-08-2007, 09:08
However they are now in different parts of the FOC. Both of which have better options sitting next to them in the same category, depending on what you want to use them for.

The problem with the CC dread, for example, is getting it into combat. 6" isn't exactly speedy. On the other hand, chosen can infiltrate, you can dump possessed in a cheap as dirt rhino (and not care about the chart screwing up your plans), and terminators can deep strike. With the dread, you've got to slog and hope no one just casually pops it long before it gets any points back.

ehlijen
16-08-2007, 09:09
You can have shooty dreads without problem, you just need to keep it alone protecting a flank. Also, against most assault armies, you don't even have to worry, just walk it towards those things charging headlong towards you and you'll never even blink at your own units. Sure, it's a drawback, but it can be dealt with with careful deployment.

As for the DN vs defiler:
The dreadnaughts existance has little to do with the defiler stats. They are too seperate units, doing seprate things in seperate force org slots. Yes, it would be better if you had the best of both worlds in one unit, but if all units were perfect, where does the choice go?

Scythe
16-08-2007, 09:24
However they are now in different parts of the FOC. Both of which have better options sitting next to them in the same category, depending on what you want to use them for.


A point everybody seems to be overlooking. Dreads now do not take a valuable HS slot anymore, which makes direct comparing it with a defiler kind of flawed.

dcikgyurt
16-08-2007, 10:07
Dreadnought = Liability, even in the current codex.

Defiler = Big, scary, nasty, battlecannon wielding, move and fire, daemonically possessed, lascannon magnet. It draws an awful lot of fire away from the rest of my army, especially my new pred. Far better choice.

Besides, the model looks cooler and it has better fluff. I see no reall comparison. As for the arguement over heavy support choices in the new codex, we have 'way to many and need more fast attack.

Reece
16-08-2007, 10:17
As for the arguement over heavy support choices in the new codex, we have 'way to many and need more fast attack.
That's how I feel about it. I really miss Daemonic Beasts. Couldn't they have come up with something for another choice??

I don't own a Chaos Dread and I'm glad. I plan on taking the CC Defiler (own two). Lob shots when I can, when there's no viable target, fleet for some CC goodness.

gitburna
16-08-2007, 12:56
Additionally to scythes point about dreadnoughts now being ELITE rather than heavy slots, dreadnoughts are much more compact in terms of model size [making them easier to hide] and accurate in both combat and shooting. Defilers haing BS3 is no *real* problem, since their secondary weapons are often twin linked and/or templates. And also nowadays they've gone and given you the additional attacks upgrade. One thing i noticed before with the defiler was that they were rubbish in assault, i rationalised this as being because defilers would be good for attacking structures,vehicles and soon, but infantrywere a bit too nimble. I held one up with guardians before now,losing none [Zero] while i waited for my wraithlord to arrive and tear it up.

The Song of Spears
16-08-2007, 15:52
In a game last night i could have REALLY used that fleeting defiler

picture this guys:

Table is typical 6x4
In the middle was a 18"x18" area terrain three story building.
on one side was my units, on the other side and back a bit was nearly the whole tau army, with come kroot in front.

if i had the fleeting defiler, it would have been...
move into the terrain but 6" back so no getting shot at, then next turn move and fleet into the kroot, easily wipe them out then consolidate into the 340 point broadside unit behind them, and suits and firewarriors and space pope behind them. And there would have been nothing to stop it...

I think i agree, the defiler may be have wasted, but maybe that does mean that it can at least be versatile each game.

Grand Master Raziel
16-08-2007, 17:44
I take it that Dreads now again preferably fire at own guys instead of the enemy when they go nuts?
Consider mine dropped from my list. I remember a game with CSM codex 3rd ed. #1 where a plasma cannon armed dread went nuts and zapped a Predator and 3 bikes in that phase. I never again used it.

Well, I remember playing against a joker who (using the 2nd 3rd ed dex) slapped a plasma cannon and a havoc launcher on his dread. When that thing Fire-Frenzied, it wiped out one of my squads with 6 blast template shots. Ugly.

I suppose people are going to Theory-hammer until the cows come home (or at least until the new Chaos dex is in widespread use), but it seems to me that each of the vehicles in question has their merits. Dread's a good platform for weapons that require BS to hit. Concerned about fire frenzy? Give him a twin-linked lascannon and task him to kill vehicles. If he fire frenzies, he's taking out one guy at most.

As for the Defiler, it's got versatility. You want to assault things? It can do that. It gets Immobilized? No problem, it's got a battle cannon. It loses the battle cannon? Fleet into assault! The thing is pretty much guaranteed to be dangerous to your opponent every turn until it's destroyed.

The Song of Spears
16-08-2007, 18:24
Well, I remember playing against a joker who (using the 2nd 3rd ed dex) slapped a plasma cannon and a havoc launcher on his dread. When that thing Fire-Frenzied, it wiped out one of my squads with 6 blast template shots. Ugly.

I don't think you quite remember how he could do that... To detal it out...

You see all the dread used to need was LOS to the enemy, then his fire-frenzy would aim at them.

NOW, the CLOSEST unit to the dread gets shot, NOT the closest enemy unit, purely the closest unit. So unless the dread has somehow moved his 6" each turn to the point where he is closer to the enemy and further from your guys, you get to be shot by the barrage. And with armour 12, he is likely not going to be alive long enough for this situation (closer to enemy than you) to happen.

Caligula
16-08-2007, 18:32
Song of Spears: Your post a couple spaces up is EXACTLY what I've been wanting to hear! As was discussed before, the Defiler will generally be wasting about 50% of its' abilities most of the time, in whatever particular role it happens to be filling. This is fact, and some people are turned off the Defiler because of this.

What I mentioned earlier somewhere(possibly even in this thread?) is that despite the seeming "waste" of some of its' abilities, the versatility of the Defiler more than makes up for this, imho of course. I'm just glad to see you're thinking this as well, The Song of Spears, which might just mean I'm not entirely mad.

I guess the price of versatility is often a compromise on complete efficiency, which to me is more than fair.

The Song of Spears
16-08-2007, 18:57
True, true. :D

I actually welcome the idea of a CC defiler, i just find the battle cannon a odd paring, it seems like there should be a IF tank like a basilisk, and then there should be the defiler, set up of CC or with Lascannons/autocannons, heavy flamers all mixed as you see fit, but oh well, i can, if the odd change arises that i dont need to fleet, fire a battle cannon into the unit i am about to assault should it be a big unit or some such... so that s kinda cool too.

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 19:15
Question; if you roll fire frenzy, do you work through it immediatly or do you wait until the shooting phase?

Because in that case, you've got a movement phase worth to get out of it's way. It's not all that bad then, is it?

The Song of Spears
16-08-2007, 20:50
Question; if you roll fire frenzy, do you work through it immediatly or do you wait until the shooting phase?

Because in that case, you've got a movement phase worth to get out of it's way. It's not all that bad then, is it?

Depends. at this point thats metagame.

Are you able to move far enough away?
How close is the enemy?

or the better question : why bother? unless you are full up on HS slots and you direly need a plasma cannon, just take a defiler and dont worry about it. I dont see any benefit whatsoever to taking a dread other then being full on other HS stuff.. and even then i would rather take something else than a dread, i mean the greater deamon is better, and takes no slots, most likely you HS choices are putting out plenty of firepower (deep striking multimelta oblits anyone?)

and with no drop pod, the dread wont survive very long out of CC, of which he is too slow to be in often.

why take a dread at all?

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 21:00
1- It's cool
2- feared
3- and takes an Elite slot.
Pretty good imo. I'll definatly be using mine. Looks over brains!

dcikgyurt
16-08-2007, 23:40
Most of the people I've spoken to at my local GW store have decided that the dread has gone from being a slight liability to being a complete liability. I don't think I'll field one unless they change the entry in the following codex (4.5 ed/5 ed). I'm going to consign mine to the display cabinet for now. Defilers are definitely the way forward, especially (as has already been mentioned by myself and others, you know who you are) as it is so versatile and can fulfill a variety of different roles.

Stella Cadente
16-08-2007, 23:59
I will be using one, all this talk of drop pods being the only way to make dreads work makes me sick, I've been running dreads WITHOUT pods for as long as I can remember (thats a long time), and they have always done me well, especially my DA mortis, I guarantee you I WILL take a dread with 2xCCW's and I don't care what anyone thinks about it being a liability or being useless, cus its simply not true

Scythe
17-08-2007, 09:13
Question; if you roll fire frenzy, do you work through it immediatly or do you wait until the shooting phase?

Because in that case, you've got a movement phase worth to get out of it's way. It's not all that bad then, is it?

To answer this question: yes, you have the movement phase to get out of the way. Of course, this is not limited to moving away to prevent being the closest target, but also to moving out of sight, spreading out to lesses plasma cannon impact, or present a harmless unit for the dread to fire at. For example: move a vehicle close to a dread with heavy bolters, or some daemons to a dread with lascannons.

Still, I agree the dreadnought is not the best choice in the codex. It has a few small advantages going for it tough, as mentioned.

sebster
17-08-2007, 10:15
Chaos have access to a lot of units with effective heavy weapons that can more than hold their own in assault. As part of a stand and shoot army with a great counter charge, I can see defilers working well. Hit the other guy with battlecannon shells as he marches up to you, then charge in and finish him off.


Chaos Dreadnaughts are reasonably cheap, and aren’t going to kill that many of their own troops. If you load one out for AT, make sure the nearest unit is a troop unit, and if you load one out for AP make sure the nearest unit is a tank it can’t hurt. They’re not going to be that devastating… in fact the real problem I see with the chaos dreadnaught is that its just a dread… they’re solid all-rounders but just don’t pack enough firepower or assault lethality to really dominate games.

Benji550
15-09-2007, 22:45
What's wrong with a CC Dreadnought? The Reaper Autocannon and the Heavy Flamer combo doesn't do much. Does it?

willydstyle
16-09-2007, 01:59
I've been using 2 dreadnoughts in my 2500 point tourney list I've been practicing with.

They're cheap, and I've been winning big, so I think they're great. And yes, I have had my dreadnoughts do stupid stuff like blowing each other up, but most of the time it doesn't make as big of an impact on the game as you might think.

Biomass Denial
16-09-2007, 02:21
As i see it the lower the point cost the more of a liability a dread becomes. So in higher point games where you will have points to spare take a dread where if it shoots a unit it wont matter as much.

adreal
16-09-2007, 02:22
Last night I played a mega battle using the new dex (3 1500pts chaos armies, 1 HUGE eldar army) and in this list was two dreads, one with autocannon and close combat weapon, one with two close combat weapons. blood rage was rolled three times throughout this game (on a standard 6x4 board) over the two dreads, and fire frenzy wasn't rolled once, so yeah most games it will be sane, and some games it will be great (yes my dread can fleet towards you) and other times it will be crap (yes my dread is going to shoot my havoks.....again)

Also we had two defilers, one got taken out first turn, the other clawed it's way into a wraithlord, great untill we found out it has I3......definatly charge infantry with that thing

DhaosAndy
16-09-2007, 03:23
Afraid the sad truth is that the dread is a complete liability, simple maths shows that in any game where it's on the table for 6 turns it's going to shoot your own troops at least once. There goes your point break over the SM version.

In the first 3rd ed dex it was sometimes worth the risk, the doubled attacks made it feared by 90% of opponents, in the new dex thats gone and with it any point what so ever in taking it, the double whammy of turning it's rear armour to the enemy is a killer as well.

As for the double CCW option well in all the games I've played with or against that set up I've only ever seen 1 have a serious effect on a battle and that landed via drop pod!

The dread may not be competing with the defiler for a FOC slot but it is competing for points. Also it's competing for points and FOC slots with Terminators, the bargin, along with raptors, in the new dex.

For myself I'll be leaving my dreads in the cabinet, my defilers may get an occaisional run out, but in the main those points'll be going on Terminators & Raptors.

Hellbore
16-09-2007, 04:06
Reading the rules for Fire Frenzy it states that:
"it must pivot on the spot towards the closet visible unit"
What does this mean for units behind the Dread?

SanguinaryDan
16-09-2007, 04:26
It means they get shot. Visibility is determined purely by LoS, not fire arcs. So as long as the Dreadnought could "see" the unit it can get shot.

Maybe it's just me, but GW seems to be showing a serious lack of love for Dreadnoughts right now. The new/old Fire Frenzy rule and the seriously overpriced BA & DA Dreads are really going to reduce the number of times you'll see them on the table.

adreal
16-09-2007, 04:34
well with the DA, BA dreads, its mainly to limit assault cannons, but with how the layouts are now, they had to raise the base price of a dread (as ti comes with assault cannon), but they should have lowered the other options in compensation, still dreads in the DA BA are fun to use, but not something fora tournie list I suppose.

Also the new Chaos dreads can be apin, but its not going to happen every game, most of the time they will just be sane, seriously math does say that once per game they will shoot you, but math goes right out the window when models hit the table

DhaosAndy
16-09-2007, 04:41
adreal: "Also the new Chaos dreads can be apin, but its not going to happen every game, most of the time they will just be sane, seriously math does say that once per game they will shoot you, but math goes right out the window when models hit the table"

Sorry but I regularly used a dred in 3rd Ed, version 1 and they did shoot my models in every game. With things being more competative these days I'm afraid I'm just not a good enough player to hand my opponents that kind of advantage and still win. Shrugs...

adreal
16-09-2007, 05:30
adreal: "Also the new Chaos dreads can be apin, but its not going to happen every game, most of the time they will just be sane, seriously math does say that once per game they will shoot you, but math goes right out the window when models hit the table"

Sorry but I regularly used a dred in 3rd Ed, version 1 and they did shoot my models in every game. With things being more competative these days I'm afraid I'm just not a good enough player to hand my opponents that kind of advantage and still win. Shrugs...

ok then dont use it, but considering that it's a one in 6 chance it will hurt you, meh I'de take my chances, some games it will hurt you, other games it wont (shrugs) it is chaos so meh.

That all being said I hate the model and wont use one, but I can just borrow a friends or in mega gamews I'm not worried about one being in my force (or I could use my dark angels one....)

Outlaw289
16-09-2007, 06:22
Use a Dreadnought and count it as a Defiler if you like the model but prefer the defiler rules. They're similar enough for you to get away with it in a friendly game

Scythe
18-09-2007, 09:17
Use a Dreadnought and count it as a Defiler if you like the model but prefer the defiler rules. They're similar enough for you to get away with it in a friendly game

They aren't that similar really. The defiler is at least 3 times as big as a dread, and boasts a huge cannon (the battle cannon).

jfrazell
18-09-2007, 12:25
All I have to say is, as an eldar player, I look forward to all the defilers coming out into the open to play. Mmmm nothing smells like victory so much as burning defilers. delicious...:)



Use a Dreadnought and count it as a Defiler if you like the model but prefer the defiler rules. They're similar enough for you to get away with it in a friendly game


True that. I've always viewed defilers more along the lines of large dreadnoughts than anything else. I have seen several dreadnought biggie sized conversions with defiler rules and they looked excellent.

IJW
18-09-2007, 13:29
Afraid the sad truth is that the dread is a complete liability, simple maths shows that in any game where it's on the table for 6 turns it's going to shoot your own troops at least once.
That's not simple maths, that's assuming that your own troops will always be the closest target.
And by the way, the actual chance of Fire Frenzy happening at least once in a six turn game is ~67%. Six lots of 1-in-6 is not 100%. :angel:

qwertywraith
18-09-2007, 16:09
More and more I'm seeing the value of both dreads and defilers despite their vulnerabilities. The way the new dexs are going, move and fire weapons are becoming more expensive. Sure you can get a more reliable Pred with twin-linked lascannon, but you lose out on a S10 close support machine.

It's true, neither dread or defiler are particularly valuable in high level competition, but that is because high level competition favours streamlining towards absolute specificity. Defilers and dreads are versatile, and so pay a premium, but that premium seems to be coming down in price in recent codices.

Anyway, I like dreads because they look great (not the Chaos GW model, forge world or converted loyalist dreads), and as far as I'm concerned, the best painted army rolls better.

Polonius
18-09-2007, 18:15
That's not simple maths, that's assuming that your own troops will always be the closest target.
And by the way, the actual chance of Fire Frenzy happening at least once in a six turn game is ~67%. Six lots of 1-in-6 is not 100%. :angel:

The odds of fire frenzy happening in 6 turns is 67%, but the average number of times it will happen in a 6 turn sample is once. In some games, it will never happen, in other games it will happen more than once.

As others have posted, the problem isn't that the liability is so great as to make the unit useless. It's that other choices are more appealing, notably terminators.

Assault dreads seem to be the big winner, as they're useful no matter what the crazed roll is. The problem there is that you have a 100 point unit that, while decent in HtH, is vulnerable to shooting. As countercharge in a shooty army, it might be okay. For any shooty dread, there's a 1/3 chance of not being able to shoot. Couple that with the fact that dreads, at AV12, are most likely to accomplish more in turns 1-2 than in 3-6, and you have a unit that simply can't avoid being closer to friendly units than enemy.

DhaosAndy
18-09-2007, 18:32
IJW: "That's not simple maths, that's assuming that your own troops will always be the closest target.
And by the way, the actual chance of Fire Frenzy happening at least once in a six turn game is ~67%. Six lots of 1-in-6 is not 100%."

Ok guilty :o

Actually though, it's as much experience as math hammer, since I used at least 1 dreadnought in every 1500 point battle I played with the 3.1 dex (I played at least 5 times a month then and often as much as 12 times or more) and on a couple of occasions I fielded 2 dreads.
I can count the number of battles in which the dread didn't kill any of my own troops on the fingers of one hand. When it didn't it was usually because I deployed it away from the bulk of my army, and as an isolated unit it would be quickly picked off. I persisted with it then because it was often useful to have a heavy support choice to throw out at the front to suppress the enemies deployment.
Since it can no longer fill that roll and will likely be destroyed if it does fire frenzy I see no upside to taking it, apart from it looking cool. Which is fair enough.
I'll use my dreads in friendly games, but in competative play no, like I said I'm just not a good enough player to overcome that kind of handicap against strong opposition. Which is a shame since I love the models.

On a side note I'd love to know the thinking behind the nerf handed out to the chaos dread because I never heard any complaints that it was over powered in the 3.5 dex. :confused:

Polonius
18-09-2007, 18:47
On a side note I'd love to know the thinking behind the nerf handed out to the chaos dread because I never heard any complaints that it was over powered in the 3.5 dex. :confused:

The nerf was long over due and needed to happen. The old chaos dex was simply the toughest, most abusive codex around once craftworld eldar got replaced. IW could outshoot anybody, Siren Prince was a laughably broken oversight, and the straight black legion list could take plentiful cheap lascannon squads, top notch assault units, powerful HQs, and indirect fire battlecannons, all at competitive prices.

Ironically, one of the main factors that kept chaos less powerful were the legion lists, which tended to prune one or more of the powerful options (Except for IW, of course.)

DhaosAndy
18-09-2007, 18:52
Polonius: "The nerf was long over due and needed to happen. The old chaos dex was simply the toughest, most abusive codex around once craftworld eldar got replaced. IW could outshoot anybody, Siren Prince was a laughably broken oversight, and the straight black legion list could take plentiful cheap lascannon squads, top notch assault units, powerful HQs, and indirect fire battlecannons, all at competitive prices.

Ironically, one of the main factors that kept chaos less powerful were the legion lists, which tended to prune one or more of the powerful options (Except for IW, of course.)"

So what was powerful or abusive about the 3.5 dread?

(If your going to pick up on the aside you could at least answer the question.)

Still :confused:

Polonius
18-09-2007, 19:12
Oh, I'm sorry, I misread your post. I thought you said Chaos 'dex, not chaos dread.

No, you're right, the Chaos dread might win the award for "unit that was underpowered before an only got worse," previously held by IG Ogryn.

DhaosAndy
18-09-2007, 19:20
@ Polonius: It's ok it's one of the more mystifying things in the 4.0 dex, one where you'd like to collar a designer and say please explain. :angel:

Polonius
18-09-2007, 19:25
Oh, the reason is pretty simple. There is no new chaos dread coming down the pike, so there is no real reason to push them. they'd rather push the new termies with great rules. The new possessed are a bit of a mystery though... while not awful, the old possessed were a touch on the weak side, and the current rules make them needlessly unreliable.

I know this sounds cynical, but so is GW. They're goal is to sell minis, and the codices are the vehicle by which they market their product. It's not a shock that about a third of all units get better and a third get worse every revision. Getting people to buy new models is the goal, with game balance second. How far behind game balance is... well, that's where my cynicism really takes over....

Darkseer
18-09-2007, 19:28
In my last two games, my dreadnought spent nearly every turn shooting his mates. I'm never fielding him again!

Defiler is the new dread, but with a battlecannon!

Sovereign
18-09-2007, 19:29
The Dread is perfectly good as a HtH unit. It has WS4 and 2 DNCCWs - what more could you ask for?

The Defiler is perfectly good as artillery. It has a Battlecannon and can defend itself in HtH.

Take enough of both, along with Monstrous HQs, and there shouldn't be any problem with having a critical mass of models to do what is needed.

Gaftra
18-09-2007, 20:12
The Dread is perfectly good as a HtH unit. It has WS4 and 2 DNCCWs - what more could you ask for?

The Defiler is perfectly good as artillery. It has a Battlecannon and can defend itself in HtH.

Take enough of both, along with Monstrous HQs, and there shouldn't be any problem with having a critical mass of models to do what is needed.

ive got to agree with you here. the thing you have to realize about both the defiler and dred is that they are not heavy tanks that storm a battlefield like a monolith or land raider. They are in fact, contrairy to the fluff and model, fragile support design to fillin gaps within your list. They can be fielded competitvly and could even work in tournament lists. Are they harder to use than other options in the list? yes. Are they total crap doomed to only be seen by inexpirenced noobs and casual 1 offs? not if i can help it.

The_Outsider
18-09-2007, 20:14
IMO I think it comes down to this - which does a lascannon (or dark lance eyc) fear most, defiler or dread?

Answer - ther isn't much difference.

Fleeting defiler is there for the "OH SHI-" factor more than actually doing anything IMO.

Gaftra
18-09-2007, 20:34
IMO I think it comes down to this - which does a lascannon (or dark lance eyc) fear most, defiler or dread?

Answer - ther isn't much difference.

Fleeting defiler is there for the "OH SHI-" factor more than actually doing anything IMO.

and you know what a lance cares about? about jack squat, so you may as well take AV12 so you dont feel as bad when it blows through your landraider.

The_Outsider
18-09-2007, 21:49
Lances were just an example of anti tank weaponry.

Jesus no need to be so angsty.

Scythe
19-09-2007, 10:10
IMO I think it comes down to this - which does a lascannon (or dark lance eyc) fear most, defiler or dread?

Answer - ther isn't much difference.

Fleeting defiler is there for the "OH SHI-" factor more than actually doing anything IMO.

It is not a real fair comparison tough; the defiler is HS and a few pts more expensive.

Gaftra
19-09-2007, 14:28
my bad, didnt mean to seem pissy outsider. go /b/tards. my point was there is so much firepower out there right now that negates high armor that one vehicle, even AV 14, isnt going to survive. The new strategy emerging is one where you take more AV then your opponent can eliminate. The codexs are all seeing a reduction in the number of heavy weapons they can take which renforces my point.

The_Outsider
19-09-2007, 16:07
This is true, but you'll find the cheapest anti tank weaponry is short ranged thus often the defiler will fall short only to have a melta walk upto it can scream "AP1 2D6 AMROUR PEN. BITCHES!" and proceed to annihilate it a turn away from CC.

Thus IMO a dread is superior as its a more reliable long range platform (IMO the battlecannon on the defiler is a bad mix).

Pharon
19-09-2007, 16:44
The dread isn't really a good long range platform because of the fire frenzy rules and because it's a high priority target weapon on a lightly armored vehicle. The one role the dread seems to still function adequately in is infantry support armed with a HB or sometimes an AC. For the most part people don't bother shooting HB dreads until late in the game which greatly improves it's viability. DCCW dreads also do OK if you have a list designed to employ them.

I really wish you could yank the battle cannon off the defiler....that would give it a ton more survivability. An armor 12 battle cannon is just too good of a target to pass up IMO.