PDA

View Full Version : What's wrong with Codex:Eldar?



Pages : [1] 2

Malakai
15-08-2007, 18:14
I've seen several people mention that Codex Eldar and the Codexes that have followed in turn are lacking in some unspecified way. I haven't had a chance to look over the DA codex so I can't speak for it. The White Dwarf BA codex was lame I can understand that, but I was very pleased with the new Eldar Codex.

I would really like the opinion of the community on why you feel that the codex is substandard compared to the books prior to Codex Eldar.

thanks
Malakai

Sandstone
15-08-2007, 18:16
I felt that it was a bit jumbled and hard to find out the information I needed when I needed it, and it's unit organisation and style of writing seemed off. But that's just my IMHO.

L192837465
15-08-2007, 18:22
yeah, it was terrible. nearly unkillable falcons, assault 3 weapons, and monofilimint blades suck ass. the layout was bad?

the blood angels codex is temporary until they come out with a full book version in a couple years. that and it was made to stoke the sales of WD.

personally, i like it.

Caligula
15-08-2007, 18:24
I definately didn't think there was, or in fact IS, anything at all wrong with the new Eldar codex. I actually really liked it, almost to the point where I wanted to collect an army of them.

I think it mostly boils down to personal taste, as the opinions on the newer style codex format and army lists is pretty split and varied. I happen to be a big fan of the way the 40K books seem to be going, so that obviously helps a lot in relation to whether or not I like them. Don't shoot me for this but I even quite liked the new BA list in White Dwarf.

So yeah, I'm certainly with you on liking the new Eldar codex...it's just a personal taste thing.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-08-2007, 18:33
yeah, it was terrible. nearly unkillable falcons, assault 3 weapons, and monofilimint blades suck ass. the layout was bad?

the blood angels codex is temporary until they come out with a full book version in a couple years. that and it was made to stoke the sales of WD.

personally, i like it.

I assume your refering to a Falcon with Holo-Field, Spirit Stones, Star Engines, and Vectored Engines. When your paying near enough the cost of a Land Raider, for a Tank that fears even the humble Autocannon, it bloody well should be resilient! Hell give it a Bright Lance and a Shuriken Cannon, and you suddenly have a tank more expensive than a Land Raider!

But yeah, it's obviously a horrifically lacking Codex, especially since every option in there is pokey in it's own right.

The trouble with the Eldar codex is seemingly Eldar players. They are never. Ever. Ever. Satisfied.;)

Malakai
15-08-2007, 18:36
The trouble with the Eldar codex is seemingly Eldar players. They are never. Ever. Ever. Satisfied.;)

That's a bit unfair. As I pointed out I'm an Eldar player and am quite happy with the new Codex.

-Malakai

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2007, 18:40
The trouble with the Eldar codex is seemingly Eldar players. They are never. Ever. Ever. Satisfied.;)

Compared to Marine and Chaos players, Eldar players are very easy to satisfy.

Finn
15-08-2007, 18:44
Humble autocannon? BS. Autocannon is the best heavy weapon you can take. You only need a few lascannons for the AV 14/T8 stuff. I guess if you're a worrier you can take them for AV 13 too...

Falcon w/Pulse, Scatter, Shuriken Cannon, Holofields, Spirit Stones. That's all you need. Use 2-3 with some Vypers and your opponent will be having nightmares for weeks. You can take vectored engines if you want to...some people do, I might - depending on points. I typically wouldn't, simply because if you get immobilised, you're going to die the next turn anyway - and you have to not be shaken in order to use those weapons.

Lord_Squinty
15-08-2007, 18:46
Compared to Marine and Chaos players, Eldar players are very easy to satisfy.

Agreed, there werent haven't been any overly major changes to eldar (except the addition of aspects) since Rogue Trader *Cant speak for 2nd edition - never played, too busy chasing women and drink*

But there have been countless marine changes to satisfy crying marine players.

T3, 4+ save marines - anyone else remember these fellows? and that was just the first major change...

BrainFireBob
15-08-2007, 18:47
The Devs decided the game was out of control, and began responding to player requests to stop the abuses of the system.

Toward that end, they've been broadening "base" lists and eliminating "special" lists that weren't balanced or apparently playtested properly.

They also did away with the armory, instead replacing it with squad upgrade options.

The latter change seriously ticked some people off, because it was different, and the former ticked off powergamers and really, really rigid people who felt that, say, you can't play Ulthwe now, just Codex: Eldar with black-painted Guardians. Despite the fact that that's all Ulthwe ever was, aside from a brief period where they got freebies for being Ulthwe.

The same applies to the Chaos Legions, any of the other Craftworld Eldar lists, the Deathwing and Ravenwing.

Codex: Eldar was the first codex of this format- the first full-fledged one being Codex: Dark Angels.

King Thurgun
15-08-2007, 18:50
The big problem with the eldar codex for me is Shining Spears. They got flippin AWESOME. And now apparently their models are disappearing? I've heard their boxes are no longer being made. Which means a possible revamp of the models, but in the meantime...

Well, if all else fails, put elves on pegasus knights from fantasy and say they're from a Maiden World. Woot open ended fluff!

Malakai
15-08-2007, 18:51
I don't want this to turn into a Marine player vs Eldar player debate. I would just like the critics of the Eldar Codex to come out and say exactly what they found wrong with it. Personally it reminded me of the old 2nd edition 'dex. And it was certainly better than that awful 3rd edition codex Gav Thorpe wrote.

-Malakai

*edit* I heard they were being repackaged into a unit like all of the other aspects, or maybe it was just the opinion of one of the Warseer community. Regardless you can still go and purchase archive parts through the online store.

Baratos
15-08-2007, 19:03
It took me half an hour to track down where all the stats and equipment descriptions were. The vehicle armory was hiding under the War Walkers, and I spent alot of time trying to find the wargear section so I could find out what the stuff on Elrad and the options for the Autarchs were. Eventually I discovered I needed to look at the special rules for unrelated models to find out what other models did. This isnt Wheres Waldo, this is a codex.

Stella Cadente
15-08-2007, 19:04
other than it being impossible to navigate, nothing was wrong with it, other than it being Eldar, which is always a major problem

infernus31
15-08-2007, 19:07
I think its partially the layout- people dont like the units not coresponding to the Force Organization Chart. I think its also because even after down powering the codex its still the power gamers choice thanks to Harlequins and Falcons- issues that will be even more highlighted once the I Win Warriors have gone.


Model wise they are grand and it will be a long time before another codex coming- expect Eldar armies to reign in the Tournament circuits for a long while.

mistformsquirrel
15-08-2007, 19:07
I like the new direction personally. There are some things I don't like - for instance not being able to arm a character with 2 'special' cc weapons (Ie: Power Fist and Power Weapon) - but overall, I find them easier to use.

I also actually find the new format cool for background, as it gives a much more extensive accounting of a given unit from a fluff standpoint; since they don't just get a little blurb on the side, but rather a full size entry.

I'm probably weird though; and I admit, being a new player that makes my opinion less biased by what has come before, as I didn't experience much of it.

W0lf
15-08-2007, 19:08
absolutly nothing. Its perfect.

if your too dumb to not work out to flick between the army list section and the unit summaries then that your problem.

The only issue i have is the placement of the summary. Itd be better on the very last page for instant reference.

Voss
15-08-2007, 19:08
Mostly its that some people like to complain. Particularly if things are different than they were..

I also find the organization of the new codexes odd. Much flipping about trying to find things. Oh, heres a bit of an issue with the eldar codex- vehicle upgrades are on the page with the war walker. For no apparent reason, they're just there, nesting among the unit entries. Rather than in their own section.

Baratos
15-08-2007, 19:14
absolutly nothing. Its perfect.

if your too dumb to not work out to flick between the army list section and the unit summaries then that your problem.


The problem is that you need to look at multiple unit summaries to understand one unit. For example, Elrad. The runes of warding and all are described in the Farseer entry. It doesnt tell you that. The same for Autarchs--To find out what Mandiblasters do, you need to look at the Striking Scorpion entry. A new player wont necessarily know that Scorpions have Mandiblasters, or might assume that Mandiblasters arent explained in that section either.

W0lf
15-08-2007, 19:17
The problem is that you need to look at multiple unit summaries to understand one unit. For example, Elrad. The runes of warding and all are described in the Farseer entry. It doesnt tell you that. The same for Autarchs--To find out what Mandiblasters do, you need to look at the Striking Scorpion entry. A new player wont necessarily know that Scorpions have Mandiblasters, or might assume that Mandiblasters arent explained in that section either.

this is why you read your codex before writing lists without having a clue what stuff does.

static grass
15-08-2007, 19:24
But before DA players start suggesting that Eldar players are too limited to read their codex before playing a game I am sure we ALL can agree that page references for the special rules would have helped.

NotElite
15-08-2007, 19:28
The primary problem is it was the start of the new "Streamlined" Layout, which is horrible. The layout only begins to work when you have all the rules memorized and therfore can just use the armylist proper for building the army. That being said, once you do have the rules memorized, having the write armylist on like 3 pages is easy to use.

As to the actual armylist, most folks who dislike it are annoyed with the "no-brainer" aspect of the list. If you are playing to win, you take a squad of Harliquins and three skimmer tanks (Falcons or Prisms to taste). That's around 800 points automatically spent.

My own personal issue is not so much with Codex Eldar, but with the fact that it was the last GOOD Codex written. The inherant level of power has dropped off significantly, and if this trend contiues, there will be a single no-brainer army for competitive play, Eldar. My group is seriously considering ignoring every Codex written since.

Oh, I do have one fluffy issue. I think Harlies should be 0-1. You'd never have 3 troupes in one place by the old fluff. Too risky.

rintinglen
15-08-2007, 19:50
this is why you read your codex before writing lists without having a clue what stuff does.
Whether you read the codex before hand or not, it is still a pain in the neck when you are trying to find a rule in the middle of the game. I really hate the layout of the new Eldar and DA Codices.
It would have taken up no more space to combine the fluff and the points pages, complete with special rules in a single entry for each unit. The failure to do so is just another example of why GW keeps losing sales.

Vineas
15-08-2007, 20:19
I am an Eldar player and I have yet to see how Harlies are the no-brainer Elite choice. I have tried the SS and HB's since the new dex and they perform well for me. Sure I need a transport for the HB's but I personally prefer a guaranteed power weapon attack than a 16% chance of a power weapon attack, even if said rending hit does auto-wound.

I concur with most everyone else here, the latest Eldar 'dex is the best one yet for 4th and the DA one wasn't bad either (for a non-Eldar army that is). I like the direction these new books are going and I hope it continues up until 5th and beyond. The focus is being brought back to the troops and not 100's of special rules and wargears. It's about time I say and the Eldar was the first, and the right, step in that direction. :)

NotElite
15-08-2007, 20:52
I am an Eldar player and I have yet to see how Harlies are the no-brainer Elite choice. I have tried the SS and HB's since the new dex and they perform well for me. Sure I need a transport for the HB's but I personally prefer a guaranteed power weapon attack than a 16% chance of a power weapon attack, even if said rending hit does auto-wound.

I concur with most everyone else here, the latest Eldar 'dex is the best one yet for 4th and the DA one wasn't bad either (for a non-Eldar army that is). I like the direction these new books are going and I hope it continues up until 5th and beyond. The focus is being brought back to the troops and not 100's of special rules and wargears. It's about time I say and the Eldar was the first, and the right, step in that direction. :)

Harlies can fleet straight at their opponents in open ground with a decent probability of not even being able to be shot at due to the Shadowseer. Add to that the fact that, as the closest unit, you have to take a test to not shoot at them means that if you fail, you might be forced to shoot at a unit you can't actually hit because you are beyong max 2d6 range. They are the melee solution to any shooty army. Their initiative has them going first against even Genestealers on the charge. They are the finest unit in the game, hands down, and cost less than a fully tuned Marine Assault squad.

I'm a fan and I don't even play Eldar :d

xiophen
15-08-2007, 21:50
Harlies can fleet straight at their opponents in open ground with a decent probability of not even being able to be shot at due to the Shadowseer. Add to that the fact that, as the closest unit, you have to take a test to not shoot at them means that if you fail, you might be forced to shoot at a unit you can't actually hit because you are beyong max 2d6 range. They are the melee solution to any shooty army. Their initiative has them going first against even Genestealers on the charge. They are the finest unit in the game, hands down, and cost less than a fully tuned Marine Assault squad.

I'm a fan and I don't even play Eldar :d

REread your Eldar dex the harlequins may be ignored for targeting purposes per the harliequin entry. The quins are awsome ys but they still have subtle weaknesses that can be abused their 3 t and 5 invul save means that if you can park at 12 or less from them wth a squad you sould be able clean their clock most of the time. My personal elite unit of choice is the fire dragons mounted on serpents or falcons.

ReDavide
15-08-2007, 22:14
On some irrational, emotional level, there is a comfort in playing a niche list. If you play Iyanden, or Word Bearers, or Trust Your Battle Brothers Marines, your army has some concrete character in your head before you even choose a unit for your Force Org Chart, and it is different from most other armies played by players of the same race. You're not just another eldar player, you're an Iyanden player.

When a codex comes out that robs an army of those niches, there's something less satisfying about it. Even if you're able to field mostly the same army composition as you used to, you're still just another Eldar player who happened to make some army selection choices that one might expect to see in an army hailing from Iyanden.

It's not rational, but it still has an effect on my enjoyment of an army.

And it needs an index.

And in comparison to the 2nd ed. codex, I think the 2nd ed. codex did a better job of making the Eldar seem mysterious, alien, and inscrutable. Maybe it was the rules, maybe it was the messy scratchy black-and-white drawings, maybe it was that the codex itself was mysterious, alien, and inscrutable. :p Who knows.

Gutlord Grom
15-08-2007, 22:15
xiophen, the only problem is that if you fail to get the shots off,, or you get bad dice, you lose a unit.

@Vineas
According to the greater part5 of the warseer Community, rending is unbeatable.

Slaaneshi Slave
15-08-2007, 22:29
Rending is definitely beatable, just throw up Shield of the Martyr, then open up with some Divinely Guided Bolter fire. :p

Caligula
15-08-2007, 22:48
I think ReDavide and others have hit on something that might have to do with some people's dislike of the new codex, and that is the seeming loss of "niche" lists.

The hard truth of the matter, as indicated by the newer codecii and army lists, is that 40K is largely moving away from "theme" army rules. Instead an army must be themed more so around aspects such as background, paint scheme, and army composition. It's a bit of a change, and one some people really, really don't like.

mistformsquirrel
15-08-2007, 23:00
Rending is definitely beatable, just throw up Shield of the Martyr, then open up with some Divinely Guided Bolter fire. :p

You need Divine Guidance on Harlies? >.> I thought they had a 5+ save <'x'> so like, bolters just mow em down anyways <,<

(Course... ... mm... flamery goodness.)

... What? I play BA >.> My vet squads have flamers. Flamers are fun! >.>;;

RTB01
15-08-2007, 23:07
If you consider competitive options in all slots and an enjoyable army book to use a problem, then try the new chaos codex or indeed, ask Alessio or Gav to write a codex of your choice, then you can have plenty to moan about, as it stands - don't say anything about the eldar dex in case they make it ******

RTB01
15-08-2007, 23:10
They are the finest unit in the game, hands down, and cost less than a fully tuned Marine Assault squad.


They're one of the nicest looking but by no means the finest in the game -surely that is the new chosen units with 5 plasma guns that get that honour?...

Rhamag
15-08-2007, 23:12
Shoot them with rokkits then hit them with choppas. Works for most stuff!

Darkangeldentist
16-08-2007, 00:44
Virtually nothing. Even the harlies and vehicles I've so far come to accept as fine.

The only thing that bugs me is Eldrad. He got cheaper and significantly better compared to his alternatives. That bugs me a lot since he was only just about right the last time.

Then new Eldar book is just about perfect really. Some people miss the craftworld lists though I'm not one of them and with good reason. Having your own rules does add something to an army. So losing it was a bit of a blow to them. Yet most of those lists were not very well concieved and one or two even worse implemented.

Torgo
16-08-2007, 01:02
And it needs an index.

It's kind of sad how excited my gaming group was about the 4th edition main rule book having an index. That should really be standard for all gaming books, but GW doesn't seem to agree.

Hellebore
16-08-2007, 01:14
THe thing I really don't like about the eldar codex is that the basic shuriken catapult is still 12" range...

For a gravitic accelerator that's a bit daft.

They realised it was dumb, but instead of changing it they decided to 'half' change it by only fixing it on the dire avengers. :eyebrows:

Apparently even eldar vehicles with extra powerfeeds and ammo storage can only fire 12" with shuriken catapults.

Bladestorm is a tad ridiculous - and seems to be a blatant attempt to make Dire Avengers awesome to sell models.

I would have preferred all shuriken to be 18" and Bladestorm to increase the range for DA to 24" for one turn and then not be able to fire for the next one.

Apart from that I found everything fine (more or less).

Hellebore

carlisimo
16-08-2007, 01:36
I'm an Eldar player who complained a lot when the 3rd edition rules were first released, and again when the 3rd edition Eldar codex came out.

But the new codex is great! I feel like I could use any unit in the book and it wouldn't be a waste of points. And it allows a ton of flexibility for those who want to play their craftworld in-character.

I never liked the craftworld lists anyway - niche armies tend to make the vanilla army unpopular and rare (who plays Ultramarines anymore?), and they often make it hard to have a close battle - you either win or lose by a lot based purely on army composition. They don't make the game better.

My only concern is that it might be too powerful, most of all because that has me expecting codex creep in the upcoming ones.

elvinltl
16-08-2007, 01:44
I must agree the codex is rather messy, i think GW need an Organiser... Look at the codex layout, it's strange. People say they adopted the Warhammer Fantasy codex layout.

I've seen the Old Eldar codex before and it's nice to have ALL Exarch powers, ALL Farseer powers, ALL warlock powers and ALL weapons compressed into several pages. It's annoying when you play the game halfway and go, what's the exact rules for mind war or destructor and you go rummaging through the codex.

The bad part is the standard eldar weapons is located at the amoury, the vehicle upgrade appears out of nowhere at warwalkers, exarch powers are scatter all over the places.

But i love the FLUFF, it's fun reading how Eldar was and is... It's like a story, i feel GW should hire more people to insert short excerpts of Eldar stories into the codex here and there. They should of course divide the codex into gameplay section and fluff section...

dabiggrotsboss
16-08-2007, 01:47
I've seen several people mention that Codex Eldar and the Codexes that have followed in turn are lacking in some unspecified way. I haven't had a chance to look over the DA codex so I can't speak for it. The White Dwarf BA codex was lame I can understand that, but I was very pleased with the new Eldar Codex.

I would really like the opinion of the community on why you feel that the codex is substandard compared to the books prior to Codex Eldar.

thanks
Malakai


Absolutely nothing.

Eldar, DA, and BA, are among the finest work GW has put out in many years, and I can only hope that Chaos and Orks in December are as good!

FunnyTom
16-08-2007, 01:51
I certainly didn't find much wrong with the new codex. The fact that the old craftworld eldar lists are not so well represented is a bit of a shame though (I'm looking at Biel-Tan's lack of the COtYK mainly, and to a lesser extent the difficulty in playing a "proper" Illayden list) and the lack of a BS4 vehicle upgrade is a bit of a shame as well. But overall, the list rocks! There are NO useless units now!

Wraithbored
16-08-2007, 01:57
I love the new codex the layotu and all that:

Autarch: Great versatility and your best friend should escalation be played

Avatar: Fearless aura is what makes him invaluable because he'll prevent those incredibly expensive eldar units running off the table and he's very tough.

Farseer and warlocks: What's not to like about an entire squad of 4+ invunerable save + psychic powers out the wazoo goodness? Nothing and if you're opponent has a culexus he'll be one happy player too.

Dire Avengers: Excelent mowing and/or bog unit. Defend+glimmer shield(not to mention being fortuned) will make them a pain in rump for ANY other unit, they are perhaps one the most survivable units in the game(in cc).

Howling banshees: power weapons plus always strike first? YES PLEASE and don't give me that they're only S3 at 3 attacks on the charge and with an exarch they'll mow through almost any opposing unit(help em with some doom and it's just plain inhuman, but then we are eldar players what do we care of humans?)

Fire Dragons: All squad with meltas? need I explain onward?

Strikign scorpions: 3 attacks base at S4 not to mention a 3+ save add a high initative and the exarchs shadowstrike and stalker...

Dark Reapers: I don't get some people they whinned why reapers didn't have a better save, now they do and they're still not pleased? :Wtf: I mean a whole squad equipped with minimissile launchers that kills a marine dead with no save. And if your opponent is a Tau and likes to hide behind shrubbery(in before Ni!) just give your exarch the good old tempest launcher and he'll make short work of those pesky CTM equipped suits.

Swooping hawks: Skyleap+grenades+sun rifle+????=profit.

Warp spiders: Adore these guys again a 3+ save plus exceptional mobility and the spinneret rifle, oh and the purchaseable ability to deepstrike.

Shinning Spears: Hmm personally not to hot on these guys, very pricey and few in number yes they do have S6 power weapons on the charge, however with so few attacks chances are something will retaliate and it will be bloody.

Rangers & pathfinders: a whole squad of sneaky sniper rifle totting pointy ears. Wouldn't like to be a general wondering too far from a squad. And I've seen these guys take down rhinos too.

Guardians: Personally don't use them, the eldar are a race going the way of the dodo, i really don't want to send the last remanants of the fertile females into combat. The weapons platform they can take is nice, but I can't help but think "meatshield"

Jetbikes: Pretty solid, fast, every 3rd guy can have a shuriken cannon and the 6" assault move(which I always seem to forget) make them really good at mass removal.

Vypers: Incredibly versatile from tank hunters to troop eliminators, equip em with holofields and spirit stones for survivability or don't. You can always go with a large number of em.My personal "wish" was to see them keep a ctm-like rule but without it they're still a briliant unit

Falcon: I admit sometimes I can hardly restrain myself from fielding more than 1, probably the best tank in the game, slap a starcannon on it or a scatter laser and make like a lawnmower.

Fire prism: Say what you will but I love these even more than a falcon. Why? They have on the field versatility. it's a tank killer and troop murderer all in one.

War walkers: 2 heavy weapons each and i've seen them kick slaaneshi lieutenants in the geneseed so hard they dropped dead.

Support weapons: Now this is the only unit I dislike very fragile and very stationary. Perhaps an interesting ploy would be to have 3 D-cannons, 3 Vibro cannons and 3 Shadow weavers so you can start harrasing your opponents with indirect fire weapons(minus the vibro cannon) when they enter the 48" "kill zone". I really hope to see other posters oppinions on these.

Wave Serpent: Carries 12, has a force field and is a fast skimmer. 9/10, and no we don't get to assault from it after moving, that's a landraider, everybody whos still moans about this start using land raiders and stop using eldar

Wraithguard: Wraitsight yes, but also fearless and T6 not to mention a VERY lethal gun a tad pricey but they can be additionally protected by a warlock with conceal. Again fortune and doom really makes them act above and beyond.

Wraithlord: Oh dear, I HAVE to buy 1 weapon for it? Hey on second thought gimme 2 oh and put 2 flamers on my cufflings would ya? IT does have wraithsight(which I tend to forget, my opponents please forgive me, I am affraid I am quite set in my ways but I will bring myself up to date) but with a spiritseer it's like it doesn't exist.

Harlequins: Yes mobile, yes rending and the shadowseer is nice but seriously these guys cost a lot of points. A smart opponent will dispatch them quickly with some flamers or a cq shooting barrage.

Eldrad: He's such a d***!

all other characters: Decent, but I don't like to use Special characters it's a personal preference.

As for the weapons: I can safely say all are useful in their own way. Starcannon vs. termies and tougher marines like death guard and 1k sons. Brightlance is for heavy tanks. Missile launcher for medium troops and medium vehicles, shuriken cannon great for light troops, scatter laser superb for light troops and low unit count heavy troops and not too shabby vs light vehicles.

All in all the layout of the codex is good. I am struggling to win a lot more than I did before(but then again my list has hardly changed dig through 40k tactics to find my old lists) so my opponents get to kill something too. This all makes for closer fought battles that can go either way which is the entire point of the game. That it's fun for the all of us(yes even you beakie players).

I think it's one of the best new codex to be released so far(if not THE best).

My 2 cents.

Vineas
16-08-2007, 03:18
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Guardians either but the DA's are just sick (it's why I intend to have at least 3 squads of 10, if not more) :D

Guardian Jetbikes are totally the ***** now in the troops slot next to DA's and don't even get me started on Rangers/pathfinders......one of my favorite Eldar units behind the DA's.

The falcon is a sick combo and I felt really bad on using it against my buddy so I'm not gonna pull that on him again. Sure it's as much as a LR decked out to make it near invincible but I'd say it's bout 3x as likely to make it to turn 6 as the LR is for around the same cost.

The new codex made my newest army decision for me. Evan the nay-sayers who all whined and cried about the new dex couldnt scare me away, hell I think it's because of them I loved it even more.

If Phil Kelly does DE (and its rumored he is) I know that DE will join the ranks of Eldar, Tau, Nid's and Orcs sitting on my gaming shelf :)

Alessander
16-08-2007, 04:21
I went through this when the codex first came out, but here it is again...

The focus on the new codex layout(s) is to separate army-building from game-playing. Two very different stages of the hobby that need different information presented.

The layout was a ton better than the old layout. Bar the special characters (and the all-in-one Autarch), all the info for the units was in one place. In 3rd edition, Warp Spiders unit had stats on one page, wargear on another, gun stats on another, exarch stats on yet another... Now it's all in one place, perfect for when I am playing with that squad during the game. Yes, the points are not there, but you should never be referring to points costs for individual models and upgrades in-game - that's for the army-building stage of the hobby.

Davachido
16-08-2007, 04:39
I went through this when the codex first came out, but here it is again...

The focus on the new codex layout(s) is to separate army-building from game-playing. Two very different stages of the hobby that need different information presented.

The layout was a ton better than the old layout. Bar the special characters (and the all-in-one Autarch), all the info for the units was in one place. In 3rd edition, Warp Spiders unit had stats on one page, wargear on another, gun stats on another, exarch stats on yet another... Now it's all in one place, perfect for when I am playing with that squad during the game. Yes, the points are not there, but you should never be referring to points costs for individual models and upgrades in-game - that's for the army-building stage of the hobby.

You are right in that respect where you don' t have to look up point costs now the problem is memorizing all the rules from the different units else you need to flip back and find their specific entry to find out. IIRC there aren't any page references in the entries either so you have to keep flipping back until you find what your looking for.

On a side note I wish they would have put all wargear/power/vechile upgrades explanation (brief summaries for each) on 1-2 pages just before the army building pages and placed the unit stats summary on the last page of the codex as well for easy referencing, but that's just me, I always end up photo copying the unit summary page and sticking it to the back of my codex for quick reference if I need it.

Alexandr Ulyanov
16-08-2007, 05:05
The layout was not too great, simply because it wasn't particularly well-organized. (flipping around to the vehicle upgrades on the war walker page to know what they do for falcons/waveserpents)

I think there were some silly army design mistakes they made:

Unnecessarily Removed
Black Guardians: all they had to do was give the option of +1 BS or(but not and) WS for X pts/X pts in the guardian entry and they keep some extra flavor without hurting balance.

Underpowered/overcosted
Striking scorpions: Come on, guys. These were a bit of a black sheep before, since the majority of armies are MEQs and they are best at killing units with better toughness and lower armor saves. Now they got a base str decrease which makes the squad pf S8, lost grenade options(a reason I liked them before), and the mandiblasters are worse than before for the squad except for the exarch. Now most people just look at them and ask "WHY?"

Storm Guardians: these were decent before, but they now suffer from the loss of grenade options (yes I took plasmas) and the lack of black guardians. Still not bad, but the nerf was unnecessary.

Vypers: their price was increased, they no longer come with a cannon standard, and their weapon options cost more. Not unusable, but now quite far from optimal.

Dark Reapers: they still have nothing on the other HS choices, and are probably too weak for their pts. You probably agree unless you play marines.

Swooping Hawks: would be nice if the grenades were optional so they could be either an optimal anti-light infantry squad or a good close range anti-tank squad; as is, they are pretty good at the latter and not very good at the former.

Overpowered/undercosted
Harlequins: lame new unique special rules and super killy.

Fire Dragons: Not so bad, but they were already decent and now they are both better and cheaper.

Other than that, it was a good codex with good but not broken units. The problem is that the broken units dominate the fields while the underpowered ones never show.

Sovereign
16-08-2007, 05:29
Like
- no armoury, with options on units instead
- very few unplayable units, most units are well-balanced.
- army is better balanced, with units spread out more broadly

Dislike
- layout in general is very plain and boring, looks looks cheap and lazy.
- overloaded Elites, with little way to reduce competition for those slots (i.e. Biel-Tan)
- Scorpions as Elite instead of Troops

Overall, I give it 8/10, which is OK, but not great.
-

carlisimo
16-08-2007, 05:59
But with Black Guardians around, who would've taken Guardians? Guardians are potters, chefs, etc... WS4 or BS4 belongs to continuously training specialists.

They'd be dead just like plain old traitless vanilla Space Marines are dead.

Sandstone
16-08-2007, 06:01
So there's no such thing as Alaitoc anymore? NO MORE RANGER ARMIES? NO MORE PATHFINDERS?! I am so screwed. I just ordered three boxes of rangers to play Alaitoc. (headsmack)

Slaaneshi Slave
16-08-2007, 06:13
The people are crying for nothing. You can still play all ranger armies, you can still play all aspect armies, you can still play ghost warrior armies, you can still play swordwinds, you can still play seer council of doom armies, the list goes on. Not much was really taken out.

Sandstone
16-08-2007, 06:15
OK, but have the rules for the Pathfinders remained the same? The sabotage? The 4+ ap1 shot?

Alexandr Ulyanov
16-08-2007, 06:18
OK, but have the rules for the Pathfinders remained the same? The sabotage? The 4+ ap1 shot?

Nope. Now they don't get the disruption table at all and they only get the AP1 on a 5+. They also lost their special morale rules and can't get a cover save in the open.

Slaaneshi Slave
16-08-2007, 06:22
But get a 2+ cover save if in hard cover.

The sky is not falling, things are just rebalanced with a new Codex. Pathfinders are still the joint best troops option (along with 10 Avengers in a Serpent with a Farseer tagging along).

sebster
16-08-2007, 06:24
So there's no such thing as Alaitoc anymore? NO MORE RANGER ARMIES? NO MORE PATHFINDERS?! I am so screwed. I just ordered three boxes of rangers to play Alaitoc. (headsmack)

Not quite. You donít select craftworld lists anymore, there is only one main list. But the main list is designed to allow a lot more variation, being able to mimic most of the old craftworld lists. With the new book you can take 3 units of rangers.

But Iíd recommend buying the new codex and finding out about the army you want to play before buying more stuff.

Finn
16-08-2007, 06:53
Not to try to hijack the thread or anything...but vanilla SM are far from dead ;). I play them with quite a bit of success. They're an extremely powerful, well-balanced list in games of around 2K. Not to mention flexibility....as long as you don't overspend on units, Marines can be frustrating to play against.

Of course, it also depends on the player - and a lot of noob players play Marines simply because that's GW's army of choice.

adreal
16-08-2007, 07:12
Alot of people seem to think Eldar are over the top, I fail to see how, serious, Harlies are very costly if youwant them to be in combat, even with withdraw they will just get pasted anyway, oh so what they can walk (fleet) up the field, that's cool I'll leave them alone for two turns, and use my army to kill other eldar and when they do get close enough, I will paste them without worrying about veil of tears.......

Flacons, ah humble little falcons, they are good, damn good, but how much do they cost for this ability? (throwing prisms in here as well) seriously if you want them to survive the game, you are investing a hell of alot of points for one scoring unit, I'll just leave it alone, kill other scoring units and then win from there, even if you take three, what else will you have in your army?

Okay I play Dark Angels, and I usually beat the local Eldar player, yeah, Dark Angels you know the codex everyone rekon's is heaps weak, beat Eldar, yeah the list everyone thinkis is over powered.

Onto the actual book, its fine, but I'm a fantasy player from way back, so this 'new' system, is old hand to me so (shrugs). Although the vechile armoury could have been osmewhere else....

Hrafn
16-08-2007, 07:16
A fad for slagging new codexes, that's essentially whats wrong..:eyebrows:

More seriously, there is of course a few blemishes on the Codex, but nothing really major. Especially when put in context with the godawfull 3rd edition Codex!

My own experience with the new Codex was initially a bland one, as I didn't find it very inspiring, nor very groundbreakingly new. Then I sat down to actually reconstruct my army - and gradually I realized that this is truely one fine Codex. True, superficially it is very similiar to the previous one, but the units have been very finely tuned. Allmost all are now viable choices in one way or another. Unlike before, where perhaps up to 50% of the units were redundant - which is one of the great sins in Codex creation IMHO. Now, I actually have to use my brain when picking an army, instead of it being mostly defined in advance. "Interesting Choices" are the backbone of good game design, and this the Eldar Codex delivers...
In comparison the old Codex sucked big time in this area, and that from it was conceived. It was not like it was invalidated by later rules changes - it was simply horribly badly designed from the start (3rd ed. Rapid Fire on Warp Spiders! :wtf:)

As for the questionable parts of the Codex, I do agree that Harlequins smell a little like a sales ploy. I don't really mind them being so good, but as they are presented, they duplicate Banshees in terms of tactical role, and Harlequins are IMHO better at it than the them, making Banshees a non-viable choice. Especially as they have not solved the problem with transporting the fragile Banshees. But allright, I have not liked the Banshees since 2nd ed. (the rules, not the mini and concept), so I might be biased. So, I also strongly disagree that Scorpions should be underpowered. I fail to see why they are worse than before, and I still much prefer them to Banshees. But the Banshee vs. Scorpions is really an old discussion, and I have seen and participated in too many of them to want to reiterate it here. Rather, I'd just say that the Codex does not change the balance between Banshees and Scorpions in comparison with the old one, and that any perceived advantage is in the eye of the beholder, ie. wherether you prefer one or another in the first place;)

The Falconhate I utterly disagree with. As stated a zillion times before, the Falcon is very pricey and packs comparetively little firepower for its price. The main problem with Falcons is when used in conjunction with the only really problematic unit, ie. Harlequins - not the Falcon itself.

I believe it is essential that we seperate negative feelings for the new Codex format from the actual contents of it. The format is here to stay - and is IMO a seperate discussion from the opinions on an individual Codex. Not that such opinions are in any way invalid, I just think it muddles the debate about the individual Codex somewhat.

Carlos
16-08-2007, 08:15
How is it hard to navigate? You just turn pages!;)

Seriously though, the new Eldar Codex is the best codex Games Workshop have pretty much ever produced. They took a very broken army with loads of choices that hardly anyone took and thanks to a few points breaks and special rules changes we ended up with an army list with 100% usable choices! Things like the Avatar, Shining Spears, Hawks, The Fire Prism, Jetbikes etc are now taken by loads of players across the world. There is not one choice in the book that I cannot find a use for!

Vespids, Pariahs, possessed, 'ard boys, ratling snipers, scouts: every army has something they hardly ever use. Can't say the same for eldar.

Giltharin
16-08-2007, 08:19
Hi there,
I actually missed the 3d edition and went straight from 2d to 4th. Probably for this reason I did not suffer for the loss of craftworlds' specific rules and lists. That said I like the new codex far better then the 3d edition one. I loved to see the comeback of some artwork and some background from the 2d edition codex and I find all the entries balanced and useful.

cheers
Giltharin

W0lf
16-08-2007, 08:34
Okay I play Dark Angels, and I usually beat the local Eldar player, yeah, Dark Angels you know the codex everyone rekon's is heaps weak, beat Eldar, yeah the list everyone thinkis is over powered.

thats not at all impressive.


The eldar codex gives the eldar player a advantage over the dark angels player. However if the eldar player has a **** list and the dark angels player has a optimimal list, the balance is restored.

Not to mention that if you swapped army choice you just beat him better.

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 08:43
I've used Harlequins twice now in a 5000 pt battle. Twice they got whiped out before doing any real harm.

They're really, really fragile. I had them sitting in cover and keeping their distance, but that didn't help against deepstring terminators (scattering to within 2" of my harlies! Argh) or Rhino's coming from reserves and dropping a 10 men squad within rapid fire range. And worse, within flamer range...

I'll keep trying them out, but they are definatly not the brainless choice people claim they are. My Howling Banshees performed better then the harlies actually. As the marines were mostly entrenched and they always strike first they managed to kill a few terminators befor being wacked out of the game.

Anyway, the codex as a whole is a blast. I've never kept my interest with one army for so long before. After a year it still feels fresh, as I never seem to have the same army list. I've got every unit entry from the codex, and most of them see regular combat (dark reapers are usually left out, as with warwalkers, wraithlords and falcons/prisms I seldomly have room for them).

I'm surprised noone complains about warp spiders. They are the best unit in the codex for me! They never ever underperform, ever. Except against necron (boo hiss).

Alexandr Ulyanov
16-08-2007, 11:20
Vespids, Pariahs, possessed, 'ard boys, ratling snipers, scouts: every army has something they hardly ever use. Can't say the same for eldar.
Lololol. There are these things called striking scorpions...

Griffin
16-08-2007, 11:59
Untrue - I always take 2 squads of 6 with Biting blades - that many attacks even marines drop.

All the Eldar stuff is useful. Harlequins have their uses, but they are not the be all and end all.

Hrafn
16-08-2007, 12:09
Lololol. There are these things called striking scorpions...

That's your opinion. I don't agree.. Give me Scorpions for versatility any day, thanks!

Captain Micha
16-08-2007, 12:16
Do not dare think scorpions are useless.

especially in the same breadth as pariah grade of useless.

Malakai
16-08-2007, 12:21
For close quarter fighting I'll take my girls over SS or Harlies any day. Of course I have the new Harlequin and SS minis, along with all the other new insanely cool eldar models, for completion sake. However my real shock troops are a full squad of Banshees, sometimes led by Jain Zar in a Wave Serpent ready to open up that proverbial can to get to the gooey Space Marine centre. Scorps are good in certain roles, Harlequins are a fun unit to field occasionally to spice things up but their points are too high to make them a mainstay. IMHO Banshees are a must have.

-Malakai

Formarion
16-08-2007, 12:25
I never played Eldar before...or now infact, but I do own the codex. My main problem with the codex is that the summary page is not at the back of the book, where it really should be. Instead they put the summary page BEFORE the painting section, which doesn't seem right to me. It's the same with the Tau EMpire codex as well, but at least the DA one has the summary at the back ^^.

As for rules and junk...meh same old really, I only bought it because one of my friends was going to start Eldar and wanted a peek at the rules.

shin'keiro
16-08-2007, 12:36
I think they should have included a 'wargear' section to describe ALL the wargear, which would save time looking up rules.

Apart from that - there was nothing wrong with it!

Stingray_tm
16-08-2007, 13:21
Positive:
- Every unit is usefull. There is no underpowered unit in the Codex. (If anybody thinks, a unit is underpowered it is mostly, because there is another unit in the Codex, that is EVEN BETTER)
- Fluff
- rules

Negative
- Layout. The white pages appear to be too... white...
- Page numbers included in the stats overview page. Yeah, it's usefull, but i am used to the save beeing the last entry in a row. The page number just isn't part of the units stats.
- Harlequins. They went way over the top with these things. Every special rule imaginable, untargetable, super-killy. Totally undercosted. There was a 40K European Championship recently, the top players of every country with ultrahard lists (9/4 IW, Godzillas, etc.). I took a look at the Eldar lists. One had a single unit of Harlies, one had three units of Harlies, the rest (out of 10 Eldar players) had two units of Harlies.

Also i don't miss the armory at all. But that's probably the Tyranid part of me speaking, because we didn't have an armory in the first place.

Stingray_tm
16-08-2007, 13:43
Lololol. There are these things called striking scorpions...

Scorpions are great against my Gaunts.

NotElite
16-08-2007, 14:26
@Mojaco: The first battle was (Edit: I meant was NOT) really a fair test since any unit would have a similar issue when faced with a squad of terminators from 2". and I'm guessing 2 heavy weapons?

The beauty of Harlies is that they don't need a transport. They are, in fact, more durable than banshees in a wave serpent because of the shadowseer. Making aggressive use of their abilities to ignore difficult terrain, fleet and the charge, you have a distinct possibility of charging a unit on the flank without providing the opportunity to be shot at. The 4 chances to rend per model plus power weapon leader at S4 has a very good chance of destroying anything they come against. If 8 genestealers with fleet and no viel can down uberunits, harlies certainly can. The most challenging issue is trying to stay safe AFTER you scrap the enemy, since that takes away the chance to Hit and Run

Darn it, I'm going to convince myself to start an Eldar army :eek:

*Inquisition looks on sternly*

TheSanityAssassin
16-08-2007, 14:30
Question: Do people READ codexes? Like...do you get them, then READ them before slamming down lists? Sure, there isn't a tightly bundled armoury, but if you just take the time to read through the book when you get it, it should be really clear where everything is....it's just a quick flip back to the unit entry to find what you're looking for,which to me is FAR better than having to scan through a damnable armoury entry.

Rockerfella
16-08-2007, 15:13
Yeah, i read the codex. In all fairness, i just sit there and go 'Oooh, look at the pretty pictures... oh! Wow... an eldar killing a MARINE' and marvel at the dare of some of GW's artists. I mean, come on.. like Eldar really kill marines..*coughs*

Anyway. Harlequins. I've used them once with the new rules against Necrons. They did well. Pleased with them. I'll always love banshees and Scorpions though. Great at what they do. They hold their own against marines, which is good enough for me.

Cheers!

ratfusion
16-08-2007, 16:34
I think the complaints the original poster was asking about are:

A) slightly annoying to flip from unit description to the points cost in the back, couldn't they have listed points in both places?

B) tooled up falcons.

Ammedie
16-08-2007, 16:48
HQ

pheniox lords are to powerfull and expencive. fo rmy tast but ive never liked single killy HQ choices.

E.
no trouble here

T
all good.

FA

bit crammped
Vipers with starcannons arnt worth 70 points 60 or 65 maby. Not 70

HS
starcannon over priced. on falcon

stupid dark reaper exarch upgrades.

wraith lords heave weapons cant be duplicated. that twin linking thing is way to expencive for its evectiveness.


thats it.

the codex is great!

ive played. 19 games with it. and lost once.

Keichi246
16-08-2007, 17:26
the codex is great!
ive played. 19 games with it. and lost once.

I think this statement right here indicates what's wrong with the Eldar codex... :D

You see very, very, few Eldar players complaining about the power of the Eldar codex. They may complain about how options that were once available in the Craftworld codex were removed, or the layout - but that's about it...

Everyone else?
There is a significant hue and cry saying that Harlequins and uber-Falcons are overpowered - particulalry in combination with each other.

I must admit - I've seen a pair of Falcons drive forward 24" to stop about 8 inches in front of my firing lines and dare an entire Tau army to try to shoot them down before they disgorged their Harlequins the next turn. When 28 quality shots, including 4 railguns, and then close combat attacks with 12 EMP grenades; fail to drop even *one* of the two Falcons (an entire army's turn of firing every weapon that could *possibly* glance the Falcon), there may be an argument said that the transport is a wee bit too durable. Especially since 3 of the Railgun hits *would* have penetrated Land Raiders...

Needless to say - the Harlequins tore my Tau army to little bitty pieces... When 860 points of an army can wipe out an army twice that size - they may be a touch overpowered.

I don't blame the Harlequins though - I've blown them to scraps without too much effort in times when they haven't been in the bus. It's the synergistic effect of a transport that takes an absolutely LUDICROUS amount of firepower to actually stop and a monster HtH unit.

Without the holofields - Falcons would be really balanced - even with the rest of their wargear... With holofields - yeesh! You have a 1/36 glancing hits of getting a kill to get the clowns out of the bus - EVERYTHING else protects them all the way in. That is infinitely better than any other transport in the game.

Other than that though - the Eldar Codex is fairly cool.

natedogg710
16-08-2007, 17:39
I think the Eldar codex is great. The reason for making new codex's is to balance them out and bring them in line with current rules. They did a great job of balancing it out because every unit is playable, there is no unit that is bad or overpriced. For those of you complaining about Falcons being too good, just remember that it is 200+ points for an "un-killable" Falcon.

I think GW did a great job with the Eldar Codex and I hope that other codex's in the future have the same quality as the Eldar one does.

Edit: Another thing having to do with taking down Falcons is using quantity over quality. People are used to having a Railgun or a Lascannon take down a tank, but that won't work for a Falcon. You need massed Str 6, 7, and 8 fire power to take one down, not just one or two str 10 shots.

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 17:42
HQ

pheniox lords are to powerfull and expencive. fo rmy tast but ive never liked single killy HQ choices.

Too powerful and too expensive can't both be true, can it? Overpowered and overpriced is a loose translation, and that doesn't work.



HS
starcannon over priced. on falcon

stupid dark reaper exarch upgrades.

Starcannon overpriced? A second ap2 weapon on the falcon, which counts as a defensive weapon? No way it's overpriced. It's the best choice.

Dark reaper upgrades are all serious choices. A missile launcher that fires twice thanks to fast shot? An indirect fire weapon with just strength 4, but compensated as it allows no cover save and re-rolls to wound thanks to crack shot? Yummy![/QUOTE]

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 17:51
I must admit - I've seen a pair of Falcons drive forward 24" to stop about 8 inches in front of my firing lines and dare an entire Tau army to try to shoot them down before they disgorged their Harlequins the next turn. When 28 quality shots, including 4 railguns, and then close combat attacks with 12 EMP grenades; fail to drop even *one* of the two Falcons (an entire army's turn of firing every weapon that could *possibly* glance the Falcon), there may be an argument said that the transport is a wee bit too durable. Especially since 3 of the Railgun hits *would* have penetrated Land Raiders...

Needless to say - the Harlequins tore my Tau army to little bitty pieces...
To counter that next time, place a unit at the falcon's exit. They will be unable to leave the falcon without the falcon moving first. And if the falcon moves, they are not allowed to charge when they unboard.

And even better, if you can at least immobilise the falcon (a more respectable 1/9 chance) the harlequins' lives are in your hands.

Stingray_tm
16-08-2007, 17:53
For those of you complaining about Falcons being too good, just remember that it is 200+ points for an "un-killable" Falcon.


So what? I pay 200 points for a Carnifex, that gets shot to pieces by Eldar weaponry in turn 1 or 2 almost every game. (2 units of 8 Pathfinders. A couple of Starcannons and/or Scatter Lasers. Doom).

Slaaneshi Slave
16-08-2007, 18:00
The things you listed to take down a 200 point Carnifex cost almost double the cost of the Carnifex...

Stingray_tm
16-08-2007, 18:05
The things you listed to take down a 200 point Carnifex cost almost double the cost of the Carnifex...

Yes. But the things you can put into double the costs of a Falcon won't take it out as reliable as in my example. And if you don't take out the Falcon, the Harlequins inside might kill twice the points of the Falcon AND the Harlequins.

The most anti-skimmer fire i could put into a Tyranid list for 400 points would be two Hive Tyrants with synchronized Venom Cannons. That would be about a bit lower than 50% percentage to blow up this tank. But who would take two such extremely specialised minmaxed Tyrants just for this purpose?

frenrik
16-08-2007, 18:48
Just remember, falcons were better in the old codex.

crystalline targeting matrix > vector engines
old spirit stones > current sprite stones
old starcannon > current star cannon.

Keichi246
16-08-2007, 18:59
To counter that next time, place a unit at the falcon's exit. They will be unable to leave the falcon without the falcon moving first. And if the falcon moves, they are not allowed to charge when they unboard.

True. The stock Tau army has exactly 2 "fast" units - Piranha and Vespid - neither of which I had. That's ok though - because my opponent ALSO knows this and made sure that the door was almost exactly 12 inchs from the *closest* unit. With the 24 inch move - on a standard table, a Falcon can pretty much pick its attack point, making the "block the door" strategy nearly impossible unless the Eldar player gets sloppy.


And even better, if you can at least immobilise the falcon (a more respectable 1/9 chance) the harlequins' lives are in your hands.

Vectored Engines - The harlies didn't have to get out until their turn. The only way to get at the Harlies before their turn is to kill the bird...



Another thing having to do with taking down Falcons is using quantity over quality. People are used to having a Railgun or a Lascannon take down a tank, but that won't work for a Falcon. You need massed Str 6, 7, and 8 fire power to take one down, not just one or two str 10 shots.

Note the part where I slammed 28 shots into the Falcon. 8 Missile pods (16 shots), 7 Plasma Rifles (7 shots), 1 Fusion blaster, 4 Railguns (2 Twin-linked). Not to mention the charge from one squad of EMP equipped Fire Warriors. I got 17 hits and 8 glances. Those glances shook the vehicle 6 times, blew off the pulse laser and immobilized it. But of course- the vectored engines set it down nice and gently - keeping the harlequins safe for their exit and dismembering...

Yeah - that Falcon would have been easy meat in future turns - but by that point - my forces were already getting carved up by the Harlies. And the OTHER HALF of his force was pretty much getting a free ride at me.

THAT'S the problem with the uber-Falcon. For the race that is "hits hard but is fragile" - they hit REALLY *******' hard and have the toughest tank in the game after upgrades. Two or three of them are just too difficult for any sane amount of firepower to deal with in a timely fashion.

Fable
16-08-2007, 19:07
I find that most the people who love the Eldar Dex are 2nd edition gamers. We grew up when tournament style wasn't as important as fluff and fun. I'm glad the list has personality again and I'm happy to see most of the format of the 2nd ed dex returned, as I enjoyed the format. Learn about your army. See their rules. Build a force. It's layed out simply in the format it should be read in.

A lot of the people who don't like it think that by not having niche lists catered to it is somehow dumbing down the game. I disagree. I think the niche lists cluttered the game and often unbalanced it. Though that's because I'm aware that Ulthwe and Iyanden were nothing but color schemes and background until the "craftworld" expansion was released.

ReDavide
16-08-2007, 19:33
Question: Do people READ codexes? Like...do you get them, then READ them before slamming down lists? Sure, there isn't a tightly bundled armoury, but if you just take the time to read through the book when you get it, it should be really clear where everything is....it's just a quick flip back to the unit entry to find what you're looking for,which to me is FAR better than having to scan through a damnable armoury entry.

If the front unit entry reliably had rules for all a unit's weaponry and equipment, that'd be great, but all too often the front entry is incomplete. Sometimes the unit's equipment is detailed in the entry for an entirely separate sort of unit, and sometimes the equipment isn't even ever explained in the codex at all (you won't find any rules for plasma grenades in the Eldar codex). This leads to a whole lot of futile flippping back & forth. An index or page references to equipment rules would have been extremely useful.

Mojaco
16-08-2007, 20:06
@ Keichi,
If he parked 12" away, then walk 6" back. An 18" gap is hard to cross with just a fleet roll. He'd be dumb to try it.

I know what vectored engines do. Yes he can get out in his own turn. But he won't if you're standing by the exit, which my remark was based on.

Next time bring fast elements in your army.

Regardless, harlequins shouldn't be killing whole armies. One unit, and then they're in the center of some very angry str 5 rapid fire weapons. Unless he breaks units in your turn every time. That's just bad luck.

All in all, it's just a trick with reasonable simple counters.

Shadow-BOT
16-08-2007, 20:22
You mean Codex: Falcon Grav Tank?

Well, thats just it, the transports are far too good. Even if they can get to cost just a bit under a land raider , I've had 12 dark lance shots try to kill a vyper but the most I did was immobilise it

SV_Harlequin
16-08-2007, 20:51
I odn't like it and have since stopped playig 40k completely.


Reasons being they removed all uniqueness from the codex so all Eldar armies are virtually the same or similar.
Tey screwed over people who before used the Codex:Craftworld (I had a Aspect army now with oboslete squads as the main Apsects are Elites to limited to 3).
The removed all flavour from the Eldar and are doing the same to all armies, evident by the Codex:Chaos.
They are basically making Codices for Tourney play only.
They overfixed some unit entries whilst penalising the others.

theshadowduke
16-08-2007, 21:00
I think my big issue with eldar has already been touched on. They are the last codex released before JJ killed codex creep, thus making them one of the single most powerful armies in the game.

To me its a balance issue.

Finn
16-08-2007, 21:27
Yes. But the things you can put into double the costs of a Falcon won't take it out as reliable as in my example.

Mmmm...guardsmen, anyone? :D I frequently take down Falcons with a 4x Grenade Launcher command section. Even easier if you DS to its rear... In any case, the guy on the last page said it best - quantity not quality against Falcons. Hell, the best army you can ever make (balanced, anyway - for a tournament, say..) has a lot of medium-quality stuff in it. Things that -can- handle anything but aren't geared more towards one than the other. Alternatively, you can take some anti-horde and anti-BigThings stuff. I prefer the first, as it tends to be more reliable. Unfortunately, autocannons won't do every job for me so there needs to be a lascannon or four in the army.


The most anti-skimmer fire i could put into a Tyranid list for 400 points would be two Hive Tyrants with synchronized Venom Cannons. That would be about a bit lower than 50% percentage to blow up this tank. But who would take two such extremely specialised minmaxed Tyrants just for this purpose?

*raises hand*. All I care about with nids is shaking the darn thing. After I do that every turn, I'll just turn those venom cannons on some Vypers or some other expensive unit...Nids don't suffer from a lack of versatility, that's for sure. A Falcon w/Scatter-Shuricannon eats bugs alive. If I get a glance, I'm happy...those Harlequins will get "meatpacked" by Gaunts or Rippers (hehehe...) or something anyway, so bring it on.


Also, the guy who claims to have gone 18-1 in his 19 games with the Eldar codex - your opponents must suck. I go about 50-50 against Eldar opponents. Of course, it helps to know which flavor of Eldar your opponent likes to play before playing them, but still. The thing is - you can't make any mistakes. Every Eldar unit will do damage - but it's true, GW's finally given the Eldar a codex that makes sense for Eldar. They hit hard and die fast...

sebster
17-08-2007, 02:08
True. The stock Tau army has exactly 2 "fast" units - Piranha and Vespid - neither of which I had. That's ok though - because my opponent ALSO knows this and made sure that the door was almost exactly 12 inchs from the *closest* unit. With the 24 inch move - on a standard table, a Falcon can pretty much pick its attack point, making the "block the door" strategy nearly impossible unless the Eldar player gets sloppy.

You donít want to standing still and firing in that situation. If heís 12Ē away you walk 6Ē back, even more with Crisis suits, and make him need a really high fleet roll to kill your stuff. If you just stand there and try and blast the falcons youíll meet with constant disappointment, but if you keep mobile and draw the harlies out into the open you can then advance on them and rapidfire the little buggers from close range.

Harlies are hands down the best unit in the game for tearing through static gun lines. But if you stay mobile harlies become very fragile.


THAT'S the problem with the uber-Falcon. For the race that is "hits hard but is fragile" - they hit REALLY *******' hard and have the toughest tank in the game after upgrades. Two or three of them are just too difficult for any sane amount of firepower to deal with in a timely fashion.

Two falcons in decent sized points games can be kept under control. Three falcons, though, is generally unmanageable. But I think that's more a problem with extreme lists than with falcons themselves.

Shadow-BOT
17-08-2007, 04:01
I odn't like it and have since stopped playig 40k completely.


Reasons being they removed all uniqueness from the codex so all Eldar armies are virtually the same or similar.
Tey screwed over people who before used the Codex:Craftworld (I had a Aspect army now with oboslete squads as the main Apsects are Elites to limited to 3).
The removed all flavour from the Eldar and are doing the same to all armies, evident by the Codex:Chaos.
They are basically making Codices for Tourney play only.
They overfixed some unit entries whilst penalising the others.



I wouldn't call it quitting if you are writing a codex :P

Malakai
17-08-2007, 07:28
I find that most the people who love the Eldar Dex are 2nd edition gamers. We grew up when tournament style wasn't as important as fluff and fun. I'm glad the list has personality again and I'm happy to see most of the format of the 2nd ed dex returned, as I enjoyed the format. Learn about your army. See their rules. Build a force. It's layed out simply in the format it should be read in.

A lot of the people who don't like it think that by not having niche lists catered to it is somehow dumbing down the game. I disagree. I think the niche lists cluttered the game and often unbalanced it. Though that's because I'm aware that Ulthwe and Iyanden were nothing but color schemes and background until the "craftworld" expansion was released.

I could not have said it better myself. I started as a second edition player and all of your statement rings true. So what if you have to flip through a book, is it really better than knowing next to nothing about the army you're painting?

-Malakai

Griffin
17-08-2007, 09:40
I'm a pure Iyanden Player, And I love how the new codex promotes the use of large squads of Wraithguard. I go about 75% on my wins against many opponents because Bolters just arn't effective against wraithguard at all. Against people who know how to negate it, its all paste. It comes down to the players - harlequins arn't unkillable - just very good at downing gunlines.

Colonel Fitzgerald
17-08-2007, 12:05
Agreed, there werent haven't been any overly major changes to eldar (except the addition of aspects) since Rogue Trader *Cant speak for 2nd edition - never played, too busy chasing women and drink*

But there have been countless marine changes to satisfy crying marine players.

T3, 4+ save marines - anyone else remember these fellows? and that was just the first major change...

I remember them & i liked them better. Marines had a better backstory to them then i thinkl. Especially the info on Space Wolves in the main rulebook. Back to Eldar, though, the only thing I didn't like about the CODEX (i.e., not the army) was the way that you have to memorise one section of it to be able to use the other. But then all the codexs are going like that. Maybe that's because most armies are a little more complicated than Guard.. :rolleyes:

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 09:57
I think this statement right here indicates what's wrong with the Eldar codex... :D

You see very, very, few Eldar players complaining about the power of the Eldar codex. They may complain about how options that were once available in the Craftworld codex were removed, or the layout - but that's about it...

Everyone else?
There is a significant hue and cry saying that Harlequins and uber-Falcons are overpowered - particulalry in combination with each other.

I must admit - I've seen a pair of Falcons drive forward 24" to stop about 8 inches in front of my firing lines and dare an entire Tau army to try to shoot them down before they disgorged their Harlequins the next turn. When 28 quality shots, including 4 railguns, and then close combat attacks with 12 EMP grenades; fail to drop even *one* of the two Falcons (an entire army's turn of firing every weapon that could *possibly* glance the Falcon), there may be an argument said that the transport is a wee bit too durable. Especially since 3 of the Railgun hits *would* have penetrated Land Raiders...

Needless to say - the Harlequins tore my Tau army to little bitty pieces... When 860 points of an army can wipe out an army twice that size - they may be a touch overpowered.

I don't blame the Harlequins though - I've blown them to scraps without too much effort in times when they haven't been in the bus. It's the synergistic effect of a transport that takes an absolutely LUDICROUS amount of firepower to actually stop and a monster HtH unit.

Without the holofields - Falcons would be really balanced - even with the rest of their wargear... With holofields - yeesh! You have a 1/36 glancing hits of getting a kill to get the clowns out of the bus - EVERYTHING else protects them all the way in. That is infinitely better than any other transport in the game.

Other than that though - the Eldar Codex is fairly cool.

I'm 100% with you, in all respects.

I think what sums up the very good points about the new codex is that it contains a wide variety of excellent units that crucially need support from each other in order to be successful. For example: banshees and harlequins are excellent in combat but the former needs their target unit to be doomed in order for them to excel and both units really need a transport to get them safely into combat. I think for the vast majority of units in the new codex, this applies - they are well-designed, with great strengths that require inter-unit support. This is as it should be with Eldar - too fragile to function in isolated pockets but when coordinated properly can be devastating.

HOWEVER, you then have tooled up falcons (and also fire prisms). One of these with holo-fields, spirit stones and vectored engines is a unit that does not require support from anything else, which goes against the ethos of the rest of the codex. Let's break down why it's so independently formidable:

-vulnerable to shooting: no, as vast majority of successful shots at the falcon will only achieve a Shaken or Stunned, and the latter is downgraded to Shaken by the Spirit Stone.
-vulnerable to assault: no, unless you're really stupid and forget to move it more than 6" (opponents can only hit it on 6s in assault)
-shooting threat to other units: high. Enough weapons to reduce 245pt Deathwing terminator squads to non-scoring, can fire all of them after moving 12", can take out tanks with its pulse-laser. In short, can handle anything.
-other threat to other units: high. Can travel 12" and dump out deadly passengers, or can dump out deadly assault passengers and then fly off 24" to safety.

This is all wrong. Eldar armies are supposed to be all about "only functioning if units support each other". Vehicles that are supposed to be capable of holding their own independently are things like Land Raiders, Monoliths and Demolisher tanks! And yet the Land Raider is much more vulnerable to S8+weaponry than the supposedly fragile grav-tank.

An example is last night: I was playing the last game in a Dark Angels v Eldar map campaign and my opponent has gravitated towards a pretty much mechanised army (fire prism, 2 falcons, wave serpent and 2 vypers, plus units in the transports, warp spiders, pathfinders, scorpions). I like to play a fast, mobile DA army, because the Ravenwing aspect is so cool and to distinguish it from my static, heavy-weapon-orientated Iron Warriors army. But I took a devastator squad with four missile launchers and a scout squad with missile launcher as well, just so that I had a hope of damaging those grav-tanks. Here's a glimpse of how the game went:

-Turn 1: Four krak missile hits on Falcon that hasn't moved yet. Holo-fields ensure I only get "Stunned", which is downgraded to "Shaken" by Spirit Stones. Falcon zooms into my deployment zone, right near the devastators and a tactical squad.
-Turn 2: 3 krak missile hits on the falcon right near me, all I get is "Shaken", thanks to holo-fields. Harlequins jump out and chew me to bits.

I rest my case.

Tulun
05-10-2007, 10:17
Harlie bomb is pretty hard to stop... gotta give you that (I generally take 1 Falcon w/ Dragons inside for tank punch).

I think Codex: Eldar is good, though I do miss a few things.

I miss Biel-tan :( I loved my aspect troops (I never did Reaper wind, hell I never took reapers!)
I miss my Scorpions Haywire grenades. Scorps were my *favourite* unit in the last codex. I use them far less now, ironically, because they lost haywire grenades. It was just so satisfying to be able to womp any unit with them.
I still do use a large squad, though, more often than Harlies and Banshees.

I wish they had fixed Guardians gun range (12" is just too short for your basic gun... we don't usually wanna be that close :))

The codex, overall though, is great. Basically every unit is worth taking.
I do think that Falcon Bombing is overpowered. Hopefully, you'll mainly just see that in tournament settings, and not friendly gaming, though.

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 10:44
Harlie bomb is pretty hard to stop... gotta give you that (I generally take 1 Falcon w/ Dragons inside for tank punch).

.....

I do think that Falcon Bombing is overpowered. Hopefully, you'll mainly just see that in tournament settings, and not friendly gaming, though.

Bear in mind, that was one of two falcons (the other one had 6 banshees inc. exarch inside) and there was also a wave serpent full of avengers and a fire prism!

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 11:24
I assume your refering to a Falcon with Holo-Field, Spirit Stones, Star Engines, and Vectored Engines. When your paying near enough the cost of a Land Raider, for a Tank that fears even the humble Autocannon, it bloody well should be resilient! Hell give it a Bright Lance and a Shuriken Cannon, and you suddenly have a tank more expensive than a Land Raider!

But yeah, it's obviously a horrifically lacking Codex, especially since every option in there is pokey in it's own right.

The trouble with the Eldar codex is seemingly Eldar players. They are never. Ever. Ever. Satisfied.;)

it shouldn't be more rock hard than a monolith though. (actualy one is harder than 3 monos.... wtf!) you can't rail gun it, demo cannon it, gauss it (but I've never had that rule -ever- work in my favor...) rending it (even though I hate that rule.. the falco is about the only exception to its mighty cheese power)

All because of one stupid piece of wargear that should -never- have been allowed to exist. The Holofield... Strip the holofield out of existance and it -might- be balanced.

Other than that, I feel the codex is great. (no sorry harlies -aren't- that good)

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 11:39
it shouldn't be more rock hard than a monolith though. (actualy one is harder than 3 monos.... wtf!) you can't rail gun it, demo cannon it, gauss it (but I've never had that rule -ever- work in my favor...) rending it (even though I hate that rule.. the falco is about the only exception to its mighty cheese power)

All because of one stupid piece of wargear that should -never- have been allowed to exist. The Holofield... Strip the holofield out of existance and it -might- be balanced.

Other than that, I feel the codex is great. (no sorry harlies -aren't- that good)

I agree with you - a monoliths is scary and difficult to kill but you can get a lucky shot with a missile launcher and destroy it outright in one shot. The chances of doing this with holo-fields are massively smaller because you don't get the honest dice result - you would have to roll two 6s on two dice! You have to look at that lovely 6 you've rolled on the glancing hit table then feel your heart sink as you see the 1, 2 or 3 on the other die that means that the tank is completely undamaged and can still ferry its deadly cargo around the table.

And I think harlequins are a well-designed unit. Very powerful but fragile. Like the rest of the codex (holo-field grav-tanks excluded), they require support from other things to be fully effective.

Wraithbored
05-10-2007, 12:05
Personally I love the new codex and damn the naysayers. All units are now viable and have an "ideal" they excel at (in before Harelquins Łber alles and Dark Reapers suck). Hell even the support weapons platforms are cool have all hs slots filled with each three equipped with different weapons and you can set up a sphere of killiness as your enemies approach you.

My list has changed very little from the craftworld codex list I still field an avatar, a squad of banshees, fire dragons, dark reapers, striking scorpions, swooping hawks, warp spiders and 2 squads of dire avengers. Before it was only 1 squad of dire avengers and these days I also add an autarch, gotta love that +1 to reserve rolls.

I have been playing Eldar since 1993 and every change of our codex has been very interesting. And eldar players have proven themselves very undemanding an whiney as compared to some other armies. And on the ot her hand we still see the occasional whine such as starcannons are useless not they should have done y instead of x etc... If you play Eldar or any other army and you think your army is utter crap and constantly nag and complain please do 1 of the three options: 1. Star liking you army and see for what it is and don't be deadlocked in your ideas, 2. Stop playing the army you complain over so much or 3. Get out of the hobby.

Wolflord Havoc
05-10-2007, 12:28
My only gripe about the Codex (which all in all is a thing of Beauty IMO) is the wording of the 'Bungy cord' abilty of the Swooping Hawks which in itself is not a problems but does allow those with selective reading issues to read that rule as allowing them to 'sky leap' the same turn they arrived.

Master Jeridian
05-10-2007, 12:57
For all this 'all units are now viable' crap, my Eldar opponents' armies sure look very similar.

Out of 3-4, only 1 resists the Harlie/Falcon Bomb. Most take 2 Prisms. The ubiquitous Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent/2nd Falcon- identical Autarch's. Cheapest Troops you can cram in, etc, etc.


I do think that Falcon Bombing is overpowered. Hopefully, you'll mainly just see that in tournament settings, and not friendly gaming, though.

Why should an Eldar player ignore a powerful chunk of his Codex? Who decides what he can use and when? Should he then be allowed to tell you not to take Tornados, or Lash Princes, etc?

No, it is the serious lack of decent playtesting that has become extremely evident with the latest Chaos Codex (oh, we didn't expect people to take two...).

Admittedly, if you fixed Harlies and Falcons (and Eldrad) then the rest of the Eldar Codex is quite serviceable, it is quite well balanced (if not well organised).

First the Falcon (but it's 200pts, whine- yeah, a LR costs more and dies far more easily, it's just the LR has been a joke unit for so long people have stopped using it as a comparison), as other's have said the Holofields are silly. One of my Eldar playing friends suggested the Venerable Dread rule (choose to force a re-roll) with a pts adjustment. I'd be fine with that, do you re-roll the Weapon Destroyed, or even the Immobilised (with Vectored Engines)- what if the end result is worse.

Second the Harlies. They do look like an Eldar fanboy got given free reign- "How many special rules can I cram in? How can I make it so the least number of tactical factors hurt my precious babies?"
They might shoot at you- "No, not my precious, Veil"
They might hunker in cover- "No, my precious must kill, plasma nades"
You might stumble on the terrain- "No, nothing stop my precious being awesome"

All the while marketing guys in suits giving the thumbs up with £ signs in the eyes.

But for all that, they are manageable themselves- a no-brainer choice for Eldar players, undercosted/overpowered, but manageable. It's when you give them a transport that is unkillable, ignores terrain and very fast- that it becomes ridiculous.
So I think corrections to the Falcon will make Harlies less sick.

So as you can see from the above, IMO, the Eldar Codex is far from the Utopian Paradise fanboy's keep making it out to be.

Eldar players should be thankful, they missed out on the Nerf Edition by a whisker. Only with DA/BA/Chaos did GW decide to make Codex's not only far weaker, but far blander. With each new swing of the Nerf Bat another Codex will fall, and Eldar will become more powerful in comparison, so the whining will only continue.

(Note: Not all whining is baseless)

Finally, call me a cynic but I find most of the people that like the new books (post-DA) are the opponents of said list, not the players.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 13:09
(Note: Not all whining is baseless)

But most of yours is.

Voodoo Boyz
05-10-2007, 13:26
For all this 'all units are now viable' crap, my Eldar opponents' armies sure look very similar.

Out of 3-4, only 1 resists the Harlie/Falcon Bomb. Most take 2 Prisms. The ubiquitous Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent/2nd Falcon- identical Autarch's. Cheapest Troops you can cram in, etc, etc.



Thank you. Every time I read that tripe of how "every unit is now viable" about the Eldar dex it just frustrates me.

I've only played against ONE person who owns an Eldar army (toxic_wisdom) who does not use 3 Holofield/Spirit Stone Grav Tanks. They outshine everything else in Heavy, by far.

So how are the other Heavy Support options "viable" when the Grav Tanks outshine them by far?

Harlies outshine any other assault unit in the list, by far. They do what Banshee's & Scorpions do, better, against a wider variety of units, and are generally more survivable for it.

Sure they're super vulnerable if something gets close enough to negate the VoT, but when they're in unkillable Falcons, who cares. I mean how retarded would it be if I could just drive a LR right up to the face of your squads, take a full round of shooting with the knowledge that most of the time I'm going to be just fine for it, and then get to unload whatever assault unit I want out of the thing?

That's how stupid the Falcon + Harlies combo is. And then sometimes for variety you see a few Fire Dragons in a Falcon or maybe a Prism or two.

After that, yeah other things look very similar to me list wise:

Min Jetbikes as Troops, maybe 2 squads of pathfinders, even more rarely you see Dire Avengers. Never really more than 2 Troops though.

HQ's see either Eldrad or the Stock Autarch which is on a bike, Lance, mandiblasters. Sometimes two of em. After that I'll sometimes, very rarely, see the Avatar show up, and if he's there it's usually with Eldrad.

So again, I ask exactly how are all the different options "viable" when all I ever see is the same kind of power build over and over all the time?

IJW
05-10-2007, 13:40
Second the Harlies. They do look like an Eldar fanboy got given free reign- "How many special rules can I cram in? How can I make it so the least number of tactical factors hurt my precious babies?"
You're aware that the current Harlequins are weaker (and have fewer special rules) than pretty well ANY previous version, aren't you? ;)
As far as I'm concerned, putting them in Falcons is the only thing that makes them overpowered.

P.S. For reference, my most-used army list contains no grav-tanks (no, not even a Wave Serpent) and a single unit of Harlequins...

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 13:43
Because the players lack imagination. Which isn't the codex's fault. It's the players. And about 60 percent of the internet's fault as well.

Warwalkers scare me... for their killing power... Falcons are simply staying power. Fireprisms... firepower and staying power? Now that's cheese.

Shining spears are awesome. Jetbikes are pretty spiffy. Dire avengers are nice too.

Scorpions and banshees are really good units. Harlequins are not all that great compared to banshees with a farseer, nor infiltrated scorpions.

The only thing that makes harlequins good is a singular rule which should be honestly the rule that the cyclic ion blaster has. Which is the same thing that makes stealers cheap, death company cheap, and a certain gun cheap. And even then in the harlies case I can still think of times I'd rather take a serpent with banshees.

The problem with the dar codex is, there are some no brains required units held within it (like falcon or fire prism... actually pretty much those two...) and then they have other potentially awesome units which do require brain matter to use. Obviously though, as proven by the prevalence of the gay falcon builds, Eldar players are no where near as smart as they like to try to make us think they are.

After all, just how much brain matter does it take to take an invincible heavy fire power carrying unit?

Voodoo Boyz
05-10-2007, 13:46
As has been stated by other posters and aluded to in my previous post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Harlequins when not used in conjunction with a Falcon.

It's the 3 Falcons/Prisms + harlies + other broken combo's that make the list so bad.

To try and insinuate that "all options are viable" or that somehow Mech Eldar armies aren't as "boring and unimaginative" as Las/Plas+Asscannon Marines, Nidzilla, or Double Lash Chaos is disingenuous.

It's one of the most powerful lists in the game and makes a mockery of other normal armies.

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 13:47
Well kids, I think we've answered this thread then! The answer to "What's wrong with Codex: Eldar?" is:

-Falcons are far too abusable
-Holo-fields make grav-tanks ridiculously overpowered
-All other units are basically good.... but Falcons make the balanced assault units highly unbalanced

Master Jeridian
05-10-2007, 13:49
You're aware that the current Harlequins are weaker (and have fewer special rules) than pretty well ANY previous version, aren't you?

That argument doesn't really hold much water, everything else is weaker too than compared to 2nd Ed, etc.

Griffin
05-10-2007, 14:23
I played a pure Iyanden army Before the new codex, and Still do after the codex. I've expanded my force, I havn't used a single Falcon in months. You know why ? The entire codex has tasty entries, really every unit has a niche. I find the whining disheartening - BA, DA, Eldar enc. All of these tell me one thing - you can build awesomely cool lists, but if you want to break a list you can. It's up to yourself not to do so. And you know what, knowledgeable players will still be able to give net lists and "standard" lists a spanking, know why ? Because they have the experiance to adapt to a wide variety of situations.

Avian
05-10-2007, 14:25
There has been a couple of reported posts in this thread. Please stick to rational arguments, please, or this thread will end up being locked.

-The Moderators

IJW
05-10-2007, 14:29
That argument doesn't really hold much water, everything else is weaker too than compared to 2nd Ed, etc.
They're arguably weaker than the 3rd ed Journal version as well. Fancy fighting Harlequins with vehicles they can assault out of freely? :(
It sounded from your post as if Harlequins had suddenly sprung from nowhere and were some new super-unit with no previous history. Apologies if I mis-read your tone.

L192837465
05-10-2007, 14:30
so, what i'm gathering from this thread is there are litterally no problems besides overpowering of units...

well, i'll add to that

my problem: Falcons need to be 250points base. if a landraider is 230 (chaos codex), then a falcon should at LEAST match that base cost. they put out roughly the same firepower, the falcon is infinately harder to kill, they're both transports, but the falcon is exponentially better at its job due to ignoring terrain and a 24" move (36 with star engines).

grav tanks are fine, as they don't reduce the strength of my guns. you just have to choose wisely what to shoot.

and in austin, i have YET to see a single eldar army without 1-6 skimmers. ever.

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 14:41
You're aware that the current Harlequins are weaker (and have fewer special rules) than pretty well ANY previous version, aren't you? ;)

Think of Harlies whatever you want (personally i find them overpowered, barely below the line of "broken"). But do never ever draw comparisons between 4th and 2nd edition. Never.

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 14:43
They're arguably weaker than the 3rd ed Journal version as well. Fancy fighting Harlequins with vehicles they can assault out of freely? :(


Those Harlies didn't have Fire Prisms, Wraithlords, Farseers, or well... almost ANYTHING in the Eldar codex to back them up. The Journal Harlies were a cc army. The Eldar Clowns are the best cc specialists in the game, backed up by the best ranged specialists in the game.

Imagine Tyranids with Assault Cannons and Lascannons...

Make Harlies targetable by barrage weapons, take away the opportunity to transport Harlies in Falcons --> almost perfect codex.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 14:45
I'd argue that MEQ armies are the best ranged specialists in the game. Chaos get (not read the new book, but I doubt its changed) Dev squads with 4 Autocannons. How long do you think Falcons will last against that sort of firepower?

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 14:45
the whole game and then some

and in that case, we are talking about -one- army and only -one- army being able to best the falcons in a destruction type of scenario (if they even get that lucky to perform that well... )

When only -one- thing in the game beats you, and even then doesn't do it easily what you've taken is busted beyond words.

To give you an idea.. I've sicked 15 fusion pirhana on two falcons before. And didn't pop even one of them... because of that STUPID reroll I took 15 pirhana not to win but to see if it were even possible to 'feasibly' pop a falcon with Tau. the answer is no, no you can't.

I've had 44 warriors hose a falcon with gauss fire to no avail.
Destroyers nothing.
Proxied leman russ, nothing.
Bassies zelch
ass cannons even nada
proxied mass auto cannon Ig and still nope..

Elanthanis
05-10-2007, 14:47
To those who went after the Dark Reaper exarch options. Marine players like putting devestator squads in heavy cover with good sight lines. By turn two, my exarch has usually eliminated such squads (crack shot+tempest launcher). To be honest, I prefer the dark reaper to the falcon, though I do admittedly run a number of wave serpents.

Hitting on twos, heavy two blast, wounding on fours, rerolling failed wounds, ap3, ignoring cover? Yes please.

As far as the "whole game and then some" comment regarding falcons lasting against massed firepower, I encourage you to actually try being on the receiving end. Eldar vehicles are sturdy, but they're expensive, and they're not invulnerable.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 14:49
the whole game and then some

and in that case, we are talking about -one- army and only -one- army being able to best the falcons in a destruction type of scenario (if they even get that lucky to perform that well... )

When only -one- thing in the game beats you, and even then doesn't do it easily what you've taken is busted beyond words.

To give you an idea.. I've sicked 15 fusion pirhana on two falcons before. And didn't pop even one of them... because of that STUPID reroll

Call me unlucky then, but my Falcon (I have two) usually die a lot easier than many people here make out. No, they don't have Harliquins in them, they have Banshees.

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 14:55
Nothing you say will convince me that the falcon is even remotely balanced when coupled with it's invincible field which is honestly what they should have named it and made it cost +100 pts maybe then I'd have abit more sympathy to it.

It's kind of hard to feel anything remotely nice about it, when you watch 15 tank hunting skimmers that can -almost- keep pace with the falcon which is 1000000000000 times harder to kill not even so much as shake the crew. then see your own skimmers get blown out of the sky one by one

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 14:58
Nothing you say will convince me that the falcon is even remotely balanced when coupled with it's invincible field which is honestly what they should have named it and made it cost +100 pts maybe then I'd have abit more sympathy to it.

It's kind of hard to feel anything remotely nice about it, when you watch 15 tank hunting skimmers that can -almost- keep pace with the falcon which is 1000000000000 times harder to kill not even so much as shake the crew. then see your own skimmers get blown out of the sky one by one

Maybe you should try the Tyranid way of dealing with Skimmers: Don't destroy them, stall them.

You get a "crew stunned" result? Fine! Don't fire any additional weapons at this skimmer that turn. Repeat next turn, if necessary. Works fine for me.

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 15:00
reason number 2 falcons are imbal.. -any- 14 armored tank that costs nearly it's pt cost is no where near as hard to down.

you're lucky if you even get crew stunned. The falcon should cost over 300 pts for what it does. It really should. As I said in my above post 15 FUSION skimmers couldn't even slow down a falcon. I imagine or hope to god one of the two it was just bad luck and good luck on his part.

but considering how many other things I've tried have failed miserably at even disabling that stupid tank for ONE turn...

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 15:01
I'd argue that MEQ armies are the best ranged specialists in the game. Chaos get (not read the new book, but I doubt its changed) Dev squads with 4 Autocannons. How long do you think Falcons will last against that sort of firepower?

Quite a long time! The Autocannons need 5s and 6s to get glancing hits and even then, the chances of getting anything other than Shaken or Stunned (reduced to Shaken by Spirit Stones) are next to zero.


Call me unlucky then, but my Falcon (I have two) usually die a lot easier than many people here make out. No, they don't have Harliquins in them, they have Banshees.

As someone said before, two falcons in a reasonable-sized game is manageable. But when you add a fire prism with the same setup and a wave serpent the survivability of the grav-tanks increases exponentially.

The biggest bug about these suped-up grav-tanks is that there's no tactic you can perfect to ensure killing them. It's not like you can learn to lure them in and then shoot the rear armour with cunningly placed models for a sure-fire kill - you'll still only get glancing hits and then you have the same problem with the holo-fields. This is how you define a broken unit.

By the same logic, I say Harlequins (and the rest of the Eldar codex) are not broken because, although the Harlies rule in combat, there are tactics you can perfect (like luring them then hammering them at close range) to beat them. Not so with suped-up grav-tanks.

T_55
05-10-2007, 15:02
The point their trying to get across is that the falcon needs to be hit with a blinding array of weapons before you even so much as scratch it. So technically that wouldn't help either Stringray, as the amount of shots you waste the next turn around will invariably kill you and then the falcon has done its job of absorbing more then its weight in points.

I think the elder codex is good, bar what has been mentioned already, the layout is a bit odd for me as i'm much more akin to the older dexs', and it makes me slightly bitter as well. I dunno really, i'd rather keep my comments on the units to myself, but from the grim picture many of you are painting it appears the falcon is quite frankly, unkillable (call me naive), but i have yet to come across it, and until then i'll be thankful.

sephiroth87
05-10-2007, 15:03
yeah, it was terrible. nearly unkillable falcons, assault 3 weapons, and monofilimint blades suck ass. the layout was bad?

the blood angels codex is temporary until they come out with a full book version in a couple years. that and it was made to stoke the sales of WD.

personally, i like it.


Really, this is off the subject, but I just have to point out something: GW nearly gave the codex away. For the cost of a magazine, you got the rules for the blood angels, and I think they're now putting them online for free. GW went away from doing chapter approved stuff and everybody screamed. Then they did something really good by putting it back in and you're saying it was made just to drive white dwarf sales?

It's no wonder GW doesn't put much stock in internet forum feedback...

Master Jeridian
05-10-2007, 15:03
The old Stun and move on tactic has it's merits, i.e. shoot at a Falcon/Fire Prism until it can't shoot then move on to the next target.

This tactic falls down with the Harlie Bomb as nothing short of destroying the Falcon will stop them getting out and charging you.

Even without the Harlie bomb, you spend the game Stuning and moving on...then turn 6 rolls around and swoop, they've Tank Shocked you off the objectives whilst claiming them themselves- you lose.

I keep hearing the 'block the exits' tactic, but most Eldar players aren't stupid enough to move into a position where something can reach the rear, at least not without having other stuff in the army chase down such targets.
Even if you pull it off, it's means you've thrown away a Tornado/Piranha/other fast but fragile unit which is then gunned down, charged from elsewhere- all to stall the Harlies for just one turn.

Finally there's the old Jetbike trick- position them behind the Falcon. Short of having something that can charge the Jetbikes (again Eldar player stupid enough to not plan for that?) you can't block the exit.

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 15:05
The point their trying to get across is that the falcon needs to be hit with a blinding array of weapons before you even so much as scratch it. So technically that wouldn't help either Stringray, as the amount of shots you waste the next turn around will invariably kill you and then the falcon has done its job ot absorbing your shots.

Well, that's usually how i as Tyranid player have to deal with any kind of tank. I don't have weapons, that can reliably destroy tanks, so it is good enough to shake them for one turn and repeat this. That's how Tyranids work. And it works fine.

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 15:06
The biggest bug about these suped-up grav-tanks is that there's no tactic you can perfect to ensure killing them. It's not like you can learn to lure them in and then shoot the rear armour with cunningly placed models for a sure-fire kill - you'll still only get glancing hits and then you have the same problem with the holo-fields. This is how you define a broken unit.

By the same logic, I say Harlequins (and the rest of the Eldar codex) are not broken because, although the Harlies rule in combat, there are tactics you can perfect (like luring them then hammering them at close range) to beat them. Not so with suped-up grav-tanks.

Then(and I prepare to be shrieked at like I was last time) Crisis Suits are the most broken units in the entire game, since they're impossible to be shot at with even minimal skill at positioning.

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 15:07
Maybe you should try the Tyranid way of dealing with Skimmers: Don't destroy them, stall them.

You get a "crew stunned" result? Fine! Don't fire any additional weapons at this skimmer that turn. Repeat next turn, if necessary. Works fine for me.

But with respect, you're missing the point - several people have posted examples of people they know who play Eldar and that the overwhelming majority of those players take a large number of these suped-up skimmers. Having to focus on stalling half your opponent's army each turn and knowing that you stand virtually no chance of destroying them means that your chances of winning are pretty slim! Aided by the ability to downgrade "Stunned" to "Shaken", it means that you a) can't destroy them for victory points and b) can't stop them moving to claim objectives, dump out passengers, etc.

There has to be a fix.

MysteryGilgamesh
05-10-2007, 15:39
made it cost +100 pts

watch 15 skimmers

+100 pts? Yeah, right. Be reasonable, don't use blind hyperbole. 1 Falcon is fair, 2 is a bit cheesy, 3 is broken. But loading any slot with 3 of the same choice tends to be broken-Look at Nidzilla, Las/Plas Marines with nearly maxed LST's, Necrons with 2 Reslords with maxed squads, etc.

Heres a hint-You used the wrong gun. Missile Pods kill Falcons, not Fusion. You need massed fire, not singular shots. 15 hit on 4+ with flimsy Pirhana will get you nowhere. 30 4+ coupled with a bunch of 4+ plasma will put those babies down, permanently.

Hell, last week, my 1st Eldar game since 2nd, my only Falcon dies 2nd turn to a single Dakkafex vs. a guy who was playing for the 1st time ever.

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 15:52
Hell, last week, my 1st Eldar game since 2nd, my only Falcon dies 2nd turn to a single Dakkafex vs. a guy who was playing for the 1st time ever.

But that's the very point, isn't it? Your "only falcon". One falcon on its own is not too much of a threat because it can only fire at one unit at a time or dump one unit of cc terrors into your midst. Which (and I mean this in the friendliest way) kind of makes your point a little invalid :)

And it seems that what you're advocating is: "to beat the cheesy list, make your own cheesy list", i.e. to beat a list full of grav-tanks, take a list full of dakkafexes. If 40k degenerates to that level, there's no point playing it. It should be about making an interesting and playable army that gives an enjoyable game and then learning to make the army work. It shouldn't be "well, this unit is so good at beating stuff that I really should take several of them, then I'll be able to beat anyone".

I personally think that the Land Raider is a good template - it's a tough vehicle with a lot of strengths, can only be damaged by a certain calibre of weapon but can equally be destroyed outright by one fortunate shot. It's very potent but you can't just stick it out there and assume that it'll withstand anythin. The falcon doesn't need its points increasing, it needs bringing down to the level of the land raider, i.e. give it an inherent weakness like the land raider. Otherwise it is into the realms of flyers in normal 1500-2000pt 40k, i.e. you can't really kill them easily enough so just have to try to avoid them.

Voodoo Boyz
05-10-2007, 15:54
+100 pts? Yeah, right. Be reasonable, don't use blind hyperbole. 1 Falcon is fair, 2 is a bit cheesy, 3 is broken. But loading any slot with 3 of the same choice tends to be broken-Look at Nidzilla, Las/Plas Marines with nearly maxed LST's, Necrons with 2 Reslords with maxed squads, etc.

Heres a hint-You used the wrong gun. Missile Pods kill Falcons, not Fusion. You need massed fire, not singular shots. 15 hit on 4+ with flimsy Pirhana will get you nowhere. 30 4+ coupled with a bunch of 4+ plasma will put those babies down, permanently.

Hell, last week, my 1st Eldar game since 2nd, my only Falcon dies 2nd turn to a single Dakkafex vs. a guy who was playing for the 1st time ever.

You're misreading him. He shot the Falcon with 15 Pihrana's. That's a LOT of shots. And he watched his skimmers (which I'm going to guess included Hammerheads) go down one by one.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 15:55
In any other sport in the world do teams only play one of their strongest players, so as to ensure its fair on the other player?

Kriegschmidt
05-10-2007, 15:59
In any other sport in the world do teams only play one of their strongest players, so as to ensure its fair on the other player?

Wrong context dude. That only applies to tournament play- football teams (for example) play each other in the vast majority of games to win some kind of competition, for the award, the accolade and the money that come with winning it. However, this thread is about the Eldar codex in general and I think it's safe to say that most games of 40k played in the world are played outside of tournaments :)

EDIT: ...and I think it's fair to say that most 40k armies are collected without the sole aim being to win tournaments.

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 16:01
which 15 shots from pirhana against -any- other sort of tank would have been more than adequate. 15 shots at str 8 > 14 shots at most at str 7.

I didn't lose -all- 15 of my pirhana but I did manage to lose 7 of them by the end of the game (and I still lost the game like I knew I would because literally the whole game was me attempting to destroy a falcon..) which morally speaking I won because I proved my point. but in game it was a loss

and yes I did lose my hammer heads... from the falcons.... then they started shooting at the pirhana...

I had 8 pirhana, 6 fw (with no transport left) and my commander. The Eldar? Lost one of his guardian squads due to 'fish burst cannon fire, fw and gun drones.

Voodoo Boyz
05-10-2007, 16:02
In any other sport in the world do teams only play one of their strongest players, so as to ensure its fair on the other player?

Right, so when you bring 3 Falcon Eldar with Fire Dragons, Harlies, Autarchs, Eldrad, min Jetbike Troops, and then Spears or Spiders to taste, don't bitch at me when:

Nids take Nidzilla
Marines take Las/Plas + Ass Cannons
Tau takes Fireknife Crisis Suits and Hammerheads and min everything else
Chaos takes two Lash's and 9 Oblits

And then don't complain when:

The game isn't fun anymore.

To be honest, I've gotten so sick of Mech Eldar & Nidzilla armies (and bored playing optimized Marines) I've given up playing tournament games.

Fact is that top lists like the big three (Eldar, Nids, Marines) make the game not fun.

Grazzy
05-10-2007, 16:02
Personally i like the eldar codex in general. The skimmers are the main problem. I havnt heard any eldar players complain about the list (everything is still OK) but only about the layout.

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 16:03
In any other sport in the world do teams only play one of their strongest players, so as to ensure its fair on the other player?

Well, the problem is, that the goal of the home team is smaller on purpose and backed up by rules...

LightedDark
05-10-2007, 16:07
My biggest compliant is that Eldar Codex is badly laid out. I wish they had included all the weapons and physic power stats to on the quick Ref and I wish they had included a list of all the wargear and what it did rather then making me remember which unit has what and where in the book to find it.

Those are my real compliant, however I must also go on record saying that I'm disappointed that playing a craftworld means nothing now and GW promised a big rewrite and really just change point cost and unit powers

That being said I did get some fun toy, like Doom, and Path-finders as troops now *Mmmm tasty*

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 16:08
I don't complain about any lists. The problem is NOT Eldar skimmers, its skimmers in general. Any vehicle that it is only possible to glance is broken. A better system would be that a MFS counts as hull down.

UncleCrazy
05-10-2007, 16:09
The way I read this is your paying 200+ pts for a transport, that will never get to shoot because it is always shaken.

I went agianst Eldar last weekend with a Deathwing heavy DA army. He only pulled a tie out in the game because of the mission. Had it not been for his Avatar beating me up pretty bad I would have won. Remember all it takes is one mini at the back door and it has to move to unload, which means no assault.

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 16:10
Or the fact that their strongest players aren't 1000x better than everyone elses.

Master Jeridian
05-10-2007, 16:15
In any other sport...

40k is a sport now?!

Last I checked it was a tabletop game.

To jump on the analogy bandwagon:
In most sports both teams are identical, at least in terms of numbers of people...and their species. In order for 40k to be compared to sport, both players would be using identical armies- then it just comes down to skill, experience and luck (much like sport).

Voodoo Boyz
05-10-2007, 16:16
I don't complain about any lists. The problem is NOT Eldar skimmers, its skimmers in general. Any vehicle that it is only possible to glance is broken. A better system would be that a MFS counts as hull down.

No actually the problem isn't skimmers moving fast and glancing only. It's specifically the Eldar who get Holofields. And it's not even Holofields, it's the combo with Spirit Stones. If you could even just Stun a Falcon and pen it next turn, it'd be overpowered, but not broken.

If it was one or the other, it'd be very good, possibly overpowered if it were just Holofields, but combined they're broken in and of themselves (tankshocking units off objectives on turn 6 and then claiming said objective), but being able to transport what amounts to the most offensively powerful and versatile assault unit in the game, well that means broken.

At least with Tau skimmers moving fast on a 3+ after the glance, they're essentially hosed. They're manageable even though they have the SMF rule.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 16:20
To jump on the analogy bandwagon:
In most sports both teams are identical, at least in terms of numbers of people...and their species. In order for 40k to be compared to sport, both players would be using identical armies- then it just comes down to skill, experience and luck (much like sport).

All players have an identical choice of units and armies to pick from.

carl
05-10-2007, 16:21
The reason I dislike the new codex is best summed up in a statment made by a fellow poster just after the new codex's release:


What’s the role of guardians now?


In making the new codex they not only cut the Craftworld lists out and left everything but troops and HQ overloaded. But they also forced every competitive player into an aspect heavy list. This is very much against the established Eldar background where it was made abundantly clear that not even Dire Avengers existed in sufficient quantity on most Craftworlds to perform the role of line troops. That fell to someone else, (unspecified). Most people (myself included), where/are of the opinion that these mystery guys pretty much had to be guardians, (I can lead you through the reasoning if you want).

The new codex's decision to make Dire Avengers the default troop choice, (by making them the best troops for their points overall of the lot), basically kills any sign of that in the army list.

The list also has issues with it being nearly impossible to accurately represent Beil-Tan or Ulthwe, (can't get enough non-dire avenger Aspect Warriors, or any non-troop Aspect other than avengers, Insufficient Maximum Farseers for a Seer Council, and guardians who are so underpowered and overpriced that a guardian heavy force will never be viable to name just the biggest issues).


They also messed up badly with the Eldar vehicles.

Vectored Engines and Star Engines needed changing and are fine as they are, the real issue is the triangle of:

Holo-Feilds, Spirit Stones, and Crystal Targeting Matrix.

Lets face it Eldar tanks tend to be fairly easy to get a glancing hit against if your weaponry actually hits them, with such paper thin armour you can easily make the penetration roll and get a glancing hit with any dedicated anti-tank weapon.

That means that Eldar tanks either need some way to negate most of the hits they take, or some way to avoid most of the enemy weaponry.

GW chose to give them a holo-feild and spirit stones, going with the very non-Eldar approach of surviving the weapons fire. Unfortunately the messed up the spirit stones. With the sheer amount of stunned and shaken results Eldar tanks with holo-fields suffer they really needed a way of being able to shoot regardless of weather they are stunned or shaken.

This means Eldar tanks now have the dubious honour of being the most durable tanks in the game whilst having almost no firepower since they will spend at least half the game stunned or shaken against a competent opponent and are less than spectacularly armed to begin with, (taking into account their low BS as well).

The Vyper was hit the hardest since it was almost totally reliant on the old CTM to be viable. The other upgrades being then, (and now), too expensive to be viable, whilst being an open-topped AV 10 skimmer means any glancing hit will down it on a 4+. That reduces the Vyper to littlie more than a 1 turn sudden strike mechanism because as soon as your enemy so much as sneezes in their direction their going to just vaporise.

Of course other armies have low AV tanks too, including some with open topped characteristics. But generally these tanks are cheaper and/or are better focused at their role.

The Eldar vehicles good armaments definitely justify a high price, but that leave the Eldar in the position of having to put a 100pt's of upgrades on every vehicle to make it possible for it to get it's VP's back. But if they do put them on it's still probably only going to get it's value back by not giving VP's away and/or absorbing a lot of the enemies weapons fire. It's highly improbable that it's actually going to get it's value back via doing damage to the opposition.

At heart the new Eldar codex destroyed the Eldar as an army for me, all of their character was stripped out and the result just isn't fun to try and plan a list for, I haven't played a game with them since before the new Dex, and TBH I almost quit 40K and GW altogether. It's only the recent release of Apocalypse and the excellent boxed sets that make collecting a new army more viable that has really got my interest again.

The Eldar Codex is far from the only example as well, the DA and BA codex both show much smaller levels of deviation from "codex" standard, (bearing in mind the landspeeder, termi AC, and combat squad rules are likely to become standard), striping them of a great deal of character in the process.

GW's current army design policy seems to rate ease of plan and balance over making an army play true to it's established character and differentiating it from other armies.

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 16:26
All players have an identical choice of units and armies to pick from.

So you say, in a martial arts, let's call it "Killdoom2000" you have the choice to use fists, feet and chainsaws. I agree, that everybody can buy a chainsaw, but that makes a real sucky sport, where most of the choices and rules are irrelevant. It's especially bad, when people who just wanted to have some fun with boxing gloves, get hacked into pieces, because "they didn't make the right choice".

That's playing "Falcon/Harlies" vs. "Falcon/Harlies".

BTW: WH40K is a game.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 16:34
Personally the only "tricked out" list I have ever played is using 3x Exorcists (which is hardly powerful anyway), but I do not bitch and whine like so many people in this thread when they face a powerful list. It should be the aim of every person to improve their game and create more powerful lists, without going so far as to create identical lists.

My 1,500 point Eldar lists has (roughly) the following in it.

2x Guide/Doom Farseers
2x 10 Bladestorming Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents
2x 5 Pathfinders
1x 6 infiltrating Scorpians
1x 6 Banshees in a Falcon

(just so I don't get acussed of power gaming (not that I really see anything wrong with that). :rolleyes:

EldarRaven
05-10-2007, 16:40
I'm pretty much fine with the codex in its layout and what not. Some things that I would change about it would be:
1. Vypers turned into the "assault bike" with wounds and T over AV. this would have made it a better option for me to take.

2. Banshee exarch powers suck. there is no reason to take them because they will not work more then half the time. Something more useful and costly would have been fine.

3. Scorpions exarch chain sabers. This should have still counted as a scorpion chainsword. Simple. An upgrade that you pay points for should be better then the items you start out with. Sure rerolling to hit and wound is nice but at str3 I would rather have the powerfist because I still keep my scorpion chainsword.

everything else in the codex is great. and all the games I played so far with the new dex are great.

Master Jeridian
05-10-2007, 16:44
It should be the aim of every person to improve their game and create more powerful lists, without going so far as to create identical lists.


The problem is those two goals are opposed.

Netlists exist because people have searched through, tested, tried, prodded, poked and found the most optimal units and combinations in an army. It's inescapable, most netlists have the nugget of truth in their unit's selections.
So if your aim is to create more powerful lists, you will eventually fall into the same netlist- as that is often the most powerful list by definition.

You can stop short, and not take a netlist, then you are failing your first goal- to make more powerful lists. Your left behind by those that ignore your second goal of having original lists.


So you say, in a martial arts, let's call it "Killdoom2000" you have the choice to use fists, feet and chainsaws. I agree, that everybody can buy a chainsaw, but that makes a real sucky sport, where most of the choices and rules are irrelevant. It's especially bad, when people who just wanted to have some fun with boxing gloves, get hacked into pieces, because "they didn't make the right choice".

That's playing "Falcon/Harlies" vs. "Falcon/Harlies".


Agree with this on your other comment.

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 16:44
No actually the problem isn't skimmers moving fast and glancing only. It's specifically the Eldar who get Holofields. And it's not even Holofields, it's the combo with Spirit Stones. If you could even just Stun a Falcon and pen it next turn, it'd be overpowered, but not broken.

If it was one or the other, it'd be very good, possibly overpowered if it were just Holofields, but combined they're broken in and of themselves (tankshocking units off objectives on turn 6 and then claiming said objective), but being able to transport what amounts to the most offensively powerful and versatile assault unit in the game, well that means broken.

At least with Tau skimmers moving fast on a 3+ after the glance, they're essentially hosed. They're manageable even though they have the SMF rule.

And how much does a suped-up Hammerhead cost versus a suped-up Falcon? And a Hammerhead outguns it by how much, and has how much higher front armour?

A Falcon without spirit stones would be useless. Its guns aren't good enough(and BS not high enough) to be a serviceable main battle tank, so its only use is as a pest or an overpriced transport. A decent Falcon will cost AT LEAST 190 points, probably more like 205-215. You're committing a seventh of your army at 1500 - which rockets up to a fifth if you take two, and a third if you take 3 - to tanks which aren't going to be killing almost anything(since even a barely competent player can shake them every turn, since they have the same front armour as a freaking Chimera) in order to virtually ensure one squad of getting it to where you need it to be.

Meanwhile, that Hammerhead outranges the Falcon, with a better gun(that's good against every army in the game thanks to the submunition round), better upgrades(I'll take the SMS any day of the week over any of the weapons a Falcon can take), better BS, can still move as a fast vehicle, can make you reroll immobilized results, and has higher front armour, which makes it immune to a whole class of weapons. And it's cheaper.

Both are good tanks. They do different things. A Falcon isn't broken because it doesn't go down to a sneeze, because that's about all it does. A Hammerhead isn't broken because it has a railgun. They do different things.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-10-2007, 16:45
The problem is those two goals are opposed.

Netlists exist because people have searched through, tested, tried, prodded, poked and found the most optimal units and combinations in an army. It's inescapable, most netlists have the nugget of truth in their unit's selections.
So if your aim is to create more powerful lists, you will eventually fall into the same netlist- as that is often the most powerful list by definition.

You can stop short, and not take a netlist, then you are failing your first goal- to make more powerful lists. Your left behind by those that ignore your second goal of having original lists.

Thats simply not true. Take a look at the Tactica Witch Hunter thread. Many of us have optimal lists, but not many of them are the same.

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 16:48
+100 pts? Yeah, right. Be reasonable, don't use blind hyperbole. 1 Falcon is fair, 2 is a bit cheesy, 3 is broken. But loading any slot with 3 of the same choice tends to be broken-Look at Nidzilla, Las/Plas Marines with nearly maxed LST's, Necrons with 2 Reslords with maxed squads, etc.

Heres a hint-You used the wrong gun. Missile Pods kill Falcons, not Fusion. You need massed fire, not singular shots. 15 hit on 4+ with flimsy Pirhana will get you nowhere. 30 4+ coupled with a bunch of 4+ plasma will put those babies down, permanently.

Hell, last week, my 1st Eldar game since 2nd, my only Falcon dies 2nd turn to a single Dakkafex vs. a guy who was playing for the 1st time ever.

OK - let's do a bit of a thought experiment here- ok?
1) it is *barely* possible to GET 15 missile pods in a Tau force. That implies that the Tau player used all three Elite slots on crisis suits for max sized teams (9)- and then used body guard teams on BOTH HQ slots (for another 6). Let's assume they are all using Fireknife suits - since that is what you seem to be advocating. I'm gonna cheat a little and give the bodyguards Targetting arrays to boost their BS4 and HWMT. BTW - Right now we are talking well over a 1000 points of crisis suits. Target is a single uber Falcon at the 12-24" range band.

9 x Crisis suits (BS3)
18 Missile Pod shots: 9 hit, 3 glance. 9 Plasma rifle shots: 4.5 hit, 1 glance.
4 x Crisis suit body guards (Bs4)
8 Missile pod shots. 5 hit - 2 glance. 4 Plasma rifle shots: 3 hit, 1 glance (rounding generously)
2 x Crisis siut commanders (BS5)
4 Missile pod shots. 3 hits - 1 glance. 2 plasma rifle shots: 2 hits. Statisitically little chance of glance.

So - 1080 points of Tau Firepower using the weapons you say are the best suited to kill the Falcon get 8 - maybe 9, glances.

And there is a 1/36 chance of me putting the bugger down in a manner that allows the cargo to be neutralized. Right....

So the fact that I have approximately 25% of killing a SINGLE Falcon in any one turn - firing over 4 TIMES it's point value using weapons that are supposedly the "optimal" at killing it seems perfectly acceptable - right?

For giggles - I'll also do the math with all the "normal" crisis suits being "Death rain" - TL Missile pods with Targetting array. It works out to be about 200 points cheaper - just over 900 pts.

13 x TL Missile Pod (BS4). 26 shots. 23 hits - 8 glances.
Same commanders as above add an extra glance. Total: 9 glances.

No real difference.

The uber falcon is just too damn tough for it's point value. Three of them... well forget it.

Kahadras
05-10-2007, 16:50
My main concern with Codex Eldar is the forementioned Skimmer, holofield, spirit stone combo. The rest of the codex was as damn near perfect as GW will ever get.

My current major concern is the reduction of anti tank firepower in other armies than Eldar. Looking at the DA codex (for instance). The price of lazcannon has increased and the infantry squads that can carry them (Tactical and Devestator squads mainly) now really need to be ten man strong (thanks to the combat squad rule).

This has happened to the DA, the BA, CSM and is exceedingly likely to happen to SM when their codex is redone (accordingly after some of the other races that desperatly need attention).

To me it seems like GW set out to create codicies for 4th ed. that were as powerful as the ones that were created at the end of 3rd ed (aparnatly all books in 3rd ed were ment to be balanced against the original 3rd ed Marine codex :rolleyes:). This then saw the release of SM, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar all of which but Eldar got quite a conciderable boost. However now GW suddenly seem to be taking the line that in fact 40K is slightly overpowered at the present moment and made moves to reduce that with the introduction of DA as a concept codex for SM redux (removal of laz/plas, assault cannon horde) and then Chaos (removal of demonbomb, IW 4 pie plate, laz/plas).

Part of this toning down seems to be a move on the part of GW to make tanks better. At the present moment most tanks are pretty easy to knock out and by limiting anti tank weapons GW make make tanks tougher and therefore more attractive. Anybody see where this is going....

...yes that's right. Falcon will actualy be more 'nails' under GW's new policy of 'limit anti tank to make tanks better'. This is, of course, a lot of speculation but if it's true then Mecha Tau and Mecha Eldar wil be far and away the best armies in the game.

Kahadras

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 16:51
It's not bitching and whining when it's true.

I make competitive lists, but they are also fun lists. I don't go mass suit tau why? because really, it's not that much fun. I do have pirhana, rail rifles, hammer heads, kroot and fish loaded firewarriors because I'm not an idiot.

If I was an ass I'd max out on crisis tau, load up on some pathfinders with rifles, pack two un transported 6 man fw squads, two hammeheads (probably with ion heads) and a broadside team.

I don't do that. I don't expect the other guy to be an ass either. and three falcons is definately being an ass

Also, hammerheads are no where near as tough as falcons and I'd rather have falcon armament than sms. That 'immunity' to immob? guess what, you take the second result regardless. Even if it is technically worse. Hammer heads do not get to move as fast vehicles, only shoot as such. So the Falcon is faster, tougher, has the same if not better range, a wider range of weapon systems, and has much better wargear.. and costs less for what it does. because it can also transport...

demicanadian
05-10-2007, 16:57
The only thing that makes harlequins good is a singular rule which should be honestly the rule that the cyclic ion blaster has. Which is the same thing that makes stealers cheap, death company cheap, and a certain gun cheap. And even then in the harlies case I can still think of times I'd rather take a serpent with banshees.

BUT... Genestealers don't carry pistols (incl. Fusion pistols, no less), can't get Veil, only have a 4+ (at a 25% cost increase over the base cost), can't be transported in rock-solid transports that are often more survivable than Land Raiders, and if Genestealers are "transported" (via Broodlord infiltrate) they lose the ability to Fleet...

Downside of Harlequins... they look like clowns.

Seems like an adequate trade-off in my book! ;)

Stingray_tm
05-10-2007, 17:02
Genestealers also don't ignore cover (even when it comes to initiative and charging), can't hit and run and don't have an invulnerable save.

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 17:02
And how much does a suped-up Hammerhead cost versus a suped-up Falcon? And a Hammerhead outguns it by how much, and has how much higher front armour?

Suped up Hammerhead - 185
Suped up Falcon - 205 by my calculations.

20 point difference. Hmm - That doesn't sound so huge to me.

Front armor diffrence - 1 point.
Gun difference - significant.
Of course- the Falcon can carry 6 of the best Close combat infantry in the game - and the guns on the falcon aren't THAT bad (48" STr 8 heavy 2 is nothing to sneer at)


Meanwhile, that Hammerhead outranges the Falcon, with a better gun(that's good against every army in the game thanks to the submunition round), better upgrades(I'll take the SMS any day of the week over any of the weapons a Falcon can take), better BS, can still move as a fast vehicle, can make you reroll immobilized results, and has higher front armour, which makes it immune to a whole class of weapons. And it's cheaper.

And *any* glance totally negates it's combat effectiveness for at least one turn - and any glancing hit above 3+ well and truly screws the Hammerhead. That one point of armor isn't THAT much protection....


Both are good tanks. They do different things. A Falcon isn't broken because it doesn't go down to a sneeze, because that's about all it does. A Hammerhead isn't broken because it has a railgun. They do different things.

You're right - a Falcon isn't broken because it doesn't go down to a sneeze. It's broken because it doesn't go down to much at all... :(

efarrer
05-10-2007, 17:18
I'd argue that MEQ armies are the best ranged specialists in the game. Chaos get (not read the new book, but I doubt its changed) Dev squads with 4 Autocannons. How long do you think Falcons will last against that sort of firepower?

For 465 points you have (3 min size units with your weapons of choice)

12 shots of which 9 should hit
of those nine shots 3 should glance
of the 3 glances 1 would disable or destroy the tank without holofields
or with holofields that is reduced to a 1 in 12 chance.

So I have to go with longer than your havocs will survive.

carl
05-10-2007, 17:19
And *any* glance totally negates it's combat effectiveness for at least one turn - and any glancing hit above 3+ well and truly screws the Hammerhead. That one point of armor isn't THAT much protection....

Except that it tottally prevents damage from S6 weapons and halves the destructive power of S7 weapons, that is a huge increase in survivability since their are a LOT of multi-shot S6 and S7 weapons out their, but not many multi-shot S8+ weapons.


You're right - a Falcon isn't broken because it doesn't go down to a sneeze. It's broken because it doesn't go down to much at all...

No, it's not, a single falcon against a good opponnt will get per game:

6 pulse laser shots, 9 shuriken cannon shots and, (for example), 18 scatter Laser Shots all @ BS3.

It's not a lot of firepower really against most armies.

What overpowers it is when thats combined with 3 of them with 3 harlie squads because suddenly you end up with more than 2/3 your points being invulnrable and enough CC power that WILL make CC that you stand a good chance of ripping the heart out of your opponnent.

The Falcon isn't overpowered, it's just that GW allowed it and Harlies to be min-maxed.

Big mistake, as it is with any army.

efarrer
05-10-2007, 17:21
Thats simply not true. Take a look at the Tactica Witch Hunter thread. Many of us have optimal lists, but not many of them are the same.

Thats because there aren't many if any great units in that book. It's a great many suboptimal lists waiting to happen. Even the optimal lists are weaker than many armies weak lists.

If it wasn't then the army might place higher.

Emperor's Avenger
05-10-2007, 17:48
I must say the laouts are weird - one section about each unit that goes into great detail and another with the actual army list entry. Better just t do a bigger list entry that explains all the rules with a bit on the side explaining what the unit is, and a large background section which explains all the fluff. That way you only have to look up one thing.

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 17:54
Suped up Hammerhead - 185
Suped up Falcon - 205 by my calculations.

20 point difference. Hmm - That doesn't sound so huge to me.

20 points is a pretty large difference. Or, hey, do you mind if you paid twenty points extra for that hammerhead?


[QUOTE=Keichi246;1977952]Front armor diffrence - 1 point.
Gun difference - significant.
Of course- the Falcon can carry 6 of the best Close combat infantry in the game - and the guns on the falcon aren't THAT bad (48" STr 8 heavy 2 is nothing to sneer at)

You won't be shooting with a Falcon 9/10ths of the time. You'll be either moving too fast or glanced. And the guns are very nearly monotasked - good only against tanks and heavy infantry. Or would you like to take a pulse laser against a Gaunt swarm? Meanwhile, a Hammerhead can merrily plug away with the best anti-tank gun in the game or one of the most efficient light infantry killers in the game.


And *any* glance totally negates it's combat effectiveness for at least one turn - and any glancing hit above 3+ well and truly screws the Hammerhead. That one point of armor isn't THAT much protection....

It makes you immune entirely to Strength 6 weapons and makes Strength 7 weapons half as effective. Considering the best way to take down skimmers is through massed medium-Strength firepower, in what universe is that not "that much protection"? Off the top of my head I can't think of any Strength 8-10 weapons with more than 2 shots with the exception of Tyranid bioweapons in standard 40k(so keep the Forgeworld out of it, please) - which isn't to say they don't exist, I just can't think of them. That point of protection is huge.


You're right - a Falcon isn't broken because it doesn't go down to a sneeze. It's broken because it doesn't go down to much at all... :(

It's not broken at all. It just can't be taken out in the braindead way that most people play 40k(that is, Lascannon-palooza).

Edit: Sigh. And even if you throw in Harlies like in Carl's post(which is an entirely separate kettle of fish), you're talking two thirds of your points in 21 models. Any idiot can take out that many Harlies, especially with them spread out and lacking support from the rest of the army. It's really not that hard. I promise.

banik
05-10-2007, 17:55
The only real thing that I don't like about the Eldar codex has to do with the shuriken catapaults and the avenger version. S Cats used to be Bolters with a sustained fire dice and an extra -1 to your target's save. They're still woefully under-ranged for a race that is supposed to value their lives more than any other. They shoud either have an extra shot or and extra 6" range.

I liked the fact that each unit type now has a little piece of fluff along with the rules. Also that many o the previously unusable options were made better or at least reasonable.

**Edit**

Also, I've found that the only players that really complain about a souped up falcon either A) Don't know how much it costs or B) Can't get it through their heads that you're not supposed to shoot at them with anti-tank weapons.

I'm fine with taking advantage of an opponent's inability to Learn.

Omniassiah
05-10-2007, 18:00
How to defeat the Harle-bomb 101

Lesson 1 Don't build a list that relys on a few specific units
Lesson 2 CHARGE THEM!!!

I remember the first time I heard about this great and undefeatable harlequin army. Offered to play a game against him, didn't even know what he was going to bring and told him I didn't care to hear either. List went something like this.

Command Platoon
6 Autocannons
6 missile launchers
3 Mortars
2x Infantry Platoons
mortar
3x grenade Autocannon squads
2x Conscript platoons
50man grenade Autocannon

Not exact but pretty close. Wiped his army off the board. The key is that while the harlequin bomb is nice it has a hard problem dealing with general purpose armies built with no key linchpins. I not surprisingly didn't stop the harlequins from getting dropped on me though I did strip most of the weapons off the falcons enough so that they ended up dying to weapon destroyed hits.

My first response to the harlequins charging was to counter charge on my turn with every squad in range. end results harlequins were all dead by the end of my turn 2. The battle went down hill for the Eldar player very quickly after that.

The Eldar can and will be the army to field if you want to completely disassemble somebodies plan in front of their eyes. Its what it has always done extremely well and will continue to do such. Eldar love armies with a very high points to models ratio but they get swamped very easily. When you field a very general list with lots of troops Eldar can get swamped pretty easily if the eldar player is not very careful.

Be honest as long as you see the min-maxed style armies you will continue to see the Harle-bombs doing really well.

carl
05-10-2007, 18:23
How to defeat the Harle-bomb 101

Lesson 1 Don't build a list that relys on a few specific units
Lesson 2 CHARGE THEM!!!

I remember the first time I heard about this great and undefeatable harlequin army. Offered to play a game against him, didn't even know what he was going to bring and told him I didn't care to hear either. List went something like this.

Command Platoon
6 Autocannons
6 missile launchers
3 Mortars
2x Infantry Platoons
mortar
3x grenade Autocannon squads
2x Conscript platoons
50man grenade Autocannon

Not exact but pretty close. Wiped his army off the board. The key is that while the harlequin bomb is nice it has a hard problem dealing with general purpose armies built with no key linchpins. I not surprisingly didn't stop the harlequins from getting dropped on me though I did strip most of the weapons off the falcons enough so that they ended up dying to weapon destroyed hits.

My first response to the harlequins charging was to counter charge on my turn with every squad in range. end results harlequins were all dead by the end of my turn 2. The battle went down hill for the Eldar player very quickly after that.

The Eldar can and will be the army to field if you want to completely disassemble somebodies plan in front of their eyes. Its what it has always done extremely well and will continue to do such. Eldar love armies with a very high points to models ratio but they get swamped very easily. When you field a very general list with lots of troops Eldar can get swamped pretty easily if the eldar player is not very careful.

Be honest as long as you see the min-maxed style armies you will continue to see the Harle-bombs doing really well.

A couple of points you missed:

1. IG pack a LOT more numbers than any other army, almost any other army, (min-maxed or not) is in serious trouble if the harlie bomb unloads and anihalates 3 units.

2. IG pack far more mid strength weaponry far more cheaply than any other army can, their closest competiter, (ironiclly), is Eldar themselves. Most other armies can't do to Falcons what IG do.

3. Because of point 2 most armies cannot feasiblly get enouigh weapons to deal with 3 falcons at all over the whole game, that means the Eldar player has a big chunk of VP's he'll never give away and some very good objective grabbers.

4. a triple Falcon plus Harlies setup still leaves just enough points for some support troops that can mop up waaht the harlies leave behind, which against most opponnents won't be very much since the harlies are going to anhillate 3 squads most likliy, that tends to leave about 50% of the enemies main army left, a resonable chunk of which will have allready been shot up by the support army, or will be cheap speed bumps.

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 18:40
The Secret to Killing Unstoppable Harlequins, by Zerosoul

1) How to kill Harlies - Shoot them in the face.

2) How to stop the Harlie bomb. Spread your squads out, feed them a cheap squad, then shoot them in the face.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Omniassiah
05-10-2007, 18:48
Very rarely will 18 harlequins mop up the board. I've seen it done multiple times but its mostly from people not knowing how to properly deal with hit and run units. Its not something that is easy but you can do it. the key is learning which units to sacrifice and which units to pull away in order to create a buffer zone. Harles are nice but frankly they are really fragile in a 6 man squad.

And the key thing is that a player needs to have an army that can face anything in a tournament. When players in a store all tend to field the same style army(small quantities of elite units) then armies that can take them out easily tend to be what shows up more. Bring a Few 70+ marine lists, Horde-nid list, Large guard armies, Heavy kroot/FW tau list, etc. which are the bane of those lists and you'll also see those list disappear in normal play.

We had the same thing in my store, min-max lasplas, harle bomb, 'nidzilla(though thats another story), and other list. Then a couple of us started field more broad spectrum counters to the. and we saw them disappear rapidly. Someone just needs to start.

Joewrightgm
05-10-2007, 18:54
The Secret to Killing Unstoppable Harlequins, by Zerosoul

1) How to kill Harlies - Shoot them in the face.

2) How to stop the Harlie bomb. Spread your squads out, feed them a cheap squad, then shoot them in the face.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Quoted for truth. Zerosoul doth speak wisely; verily he speaks yon Imperial Truth. (no, I don't know what I'm saying)

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 19:09
Suped up Hammerhead - 185
Suped up Falcon - 205 by my calculations.

20 points is a pretty large difference. Or, hey, do you mind if you paid twenty points extra for that hammerhead?

Hell - for the survivability of the Falcon I'd pay 45 more points.


You won't be shooting with a Falcon 9/10ths of the time. You'll be either moving too fast or glanced. And the guns are very nearly monotasked - good only against tanks and heavy infantry. Or would you like to take a pulse laser against a Gaunt swarm? Meanwhile, a Hammerhead can merrily plug away with the best anti-tank gun in the game or one of the most efficient light infantry killers in the game.

I'd love to see where you get that 9/10s stat from. :rolleyes: Every Falcon I've fought against, once it survived delivery, retreated back a little ways and proceeded to move over 6" and shoot at something. Most falcons I've faced had anti-personell loads; dropping Scatter laser, shuriken cannon and pulse lasers into squads. The amount of S6+ dice is throwing out is quite impressive. Even BS3 fire in large amounts kills stuff. Yes - I know - Falcons can be glanced to prevent them form shooting - but they are VERY hard to kill.

Meanwhile - that hammerhead has to be very good or very lucky to survive more than a couple turns. Again - any 3+ results on a glance pretty much screw over the tank. (Can't move or shoot? - next turn it's pen bait. Weapon destroyed? bye bye railgun. Immobilized, dead or 2/3rds chance of the bad results agian. Dead is dead.)





That one point of armor isn't THAT much protection....

It makes you immune entirely to Strength 6 weapons and makes Strength 7 weapons half as effective. Considering the best way to take down skimmers is through massed medium-Strength firepower, in what universe is that not "that much protection"? Off the top of my head I can't think of any Strength 8-10 weapons with more than 2 shots with the exception of Tyranid bioweapons in standard 40k(so keep the Forgeworld out of it, please) - which isn't to say they don't exist, I just can't think of them. That point of protection is huge.

Except that the perfectly normal antitank weapons are capable of glancing it and doing *real* damage - unlike the holofield equipped eldar. Tau skimmers don't get extra armor or spirit stones. So on any glance of a 3+, the hammerhead is well and truly screwed. Your statement that the best way to take down skimmers is through "massed medium strength firepower" is really only true for the Eldar skimmers.

Besides - look at it this way. Using the same force I shot against the uberfalcon.

9 x Crisis suits (BS3)
18 Missile Pod shots: 9 hit, 1.5 glances. Plasma rifle useless.
4 x Crisis suit body guards (Bs4)
8 Missile pod shots. 5 hit - 1 glance. Plasma Rilfe useless.
2 x Crisis siut commanders (BS5)
4 Missile pod shots. 3 hits - 1 glance. Rounding the numbers puts us in the 4 glancing hits range.

It's guaranteed not to be shooting next turn. (just like the Falcon) With 4 glancing hits however - there is a very strong probability that it would be dead, or weapon destroyed as well - rendering it utterly uneffective at it's task.


It's not broken at all. It just can't be taken out in the braindead way that most people play 40k(that is, Lascannon-palooza).

Have I MENTIONED a lascannon in any of my posts? I've been sticking to the Tau - specifically to the "massed medium firepower" that the Tau are supposed to be to use to down Falcons.

NO unit is supposed to be so tough that it can survive 4 times it's point value worth of the weapons that are SUPPOSED to be the most efficient at killing it shooting at at multiple turns. The Falcon *is* that tough. That equals broken in my book.


Edit: Sigh. And even if you throw in Harlies like in Carl's post(which is an entirely separate kettle of fish), you're talking two thirds of your points in 21 models. Any idiot can take out that many Harlies, especially with them spread out and lacking support from the rest of the army. It's really not that hard. I promise.

Except the rest of the army WILL be supporting. Toss in some jetbikes, or Dire avengers in a Wave serpent - and most of the eldar army can be in an enemies face or fire support range whenever they choose to attack.



Also, I've found that the only players that really complain about a souped up falcon either A) Don't know how much it costs or B) Can't get it through their heads that you're not supposed to shoot at them with anti-tank weapons.

I'm fine with taking advantage of an opponent's inability to Learn.

Have you actually READ any of my posts? I noted EXACTLY how much an uber falcon costs; and then tried killing it with 4 times it's points value in Crisis suits. Please - using a Tau Empire army - tell me what weapons am I supposed to use against the Falcon. *note* Read my post regarding missile pods before you even THINK about saying them.

Do NOT accuse me of being unable to learn. :eyebrows:



The Secret to Killing Unstoppable Harlequins, by Zerosoul

1) How to kill Harlies - Shoot them in the face.

2) How to stop the Harlie bomb. Spread your squads out, feed them a cheap squad, then shoot them in the face.

Thus endeth the lesson.

Sure - it's nice if you can do it. *Really* brutal Eldar players use multiple harliebombs supporting each other. Just how many sacrifical units are we supposed to be bringing to feed to Harly bombs?

carl
05-10-2007, 19:13
Very rarely will 18 harlequins mop up the board.

I didn't say mop up the board, I said rip the heart out of an army.


Take out 3 out of the 4-5 synapse units a nid player typiclly has and you've really hurt him.

Also, a lot of your suggested armies are deeply flawed, 70+ marine armies or FW/Krrot heavy tau lists without Develfish's are really lacking in any kind of non-marine/FW/Kroot models, that hurts Tau's Heavy Weapons and Marines Mobility and raw firepower.

At 2000Pt's+ it's more feasible, but if you actually want to take a balanced mix of basic firepower, heavy weapons, mobilitity, and a balanced mix between tanks and non-tanks it's dammed hard for MEQ armies to get more than 40-50 models in. Take off the light tanks and cheap fodder units and the harlies stand a good chance of taking out most of the actual main fighting units that fairly lightweight support can't deal with.


Please - using a Tau Empire army - tell me what weapons am I supposed to use against the Falcon.

3 Crisis Suits with PLasma Rifle plus Missile pod will (on average of course), keep the thing perma glanced all game. That means zero turns of shooting. If a falcon shoots it's because of 1 of 2 things:

1. it spent the entire previous turn hiding behind terrain, so if your not a very mobile army, (nid's, Guard, some SM builds), that means you couldn't shoot it to glance it.

2. You didn't shoot it, sorry but it's your own fualt then for letting it run around like that IMHO.


They key point about the falcon is that the falcon itself can only hurt you if your playing a very static army, or because you let it hurt you. Thus it's only threat is it's cargo. With Scorps or Banshee's their no issue here, it's only a problem with harlies because they can jump terrain meaning you can't shoot the harlies prior to the assuallt unless you play a mobile army.

On the other hand. Without the Harlie the Falcon is simply pointless, it won't get enough hits in to hurt you. The only IMBA bit about the falcon is the way 3 can bnearly garuntee a safe 700VP's for the eldar player since they won't die. 1 IS NOT a problem, 2 is a littile OTT, but nmot too bad, especially in 2000Pt's. 3 gets silly.

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 20:06
Hell - for the survivability of the Falcon I'd pay 45 more points.

Of course you would. I bet you'd pay 100 more! Easy to say in dumb net debates. Not so easy to put into practice with an army list.




I'd love to see where you get that 9/10s stat from. :rolleyes:

Because I play competent opponents who realize that a Falcon is completely neutered the moment whatever's inside is gone, mostly.


Except that the perfectly normal antitank weapons are capable of glancing it and doing *real* damage - unlike the holofield equipped eldar.

So you're really, truly, trying to say that a good way to go Hammerhead hunting is with meltaguns? Think about this for a moment before you respond.


Tau skimmers don't get extra armor or spirit stones. So on any glance of a 3+, the hammerhead is well and truly screwed. Your statement that the best way to take down skimmers is through "massed medium strength firepower" is really only true for the Eldar skimmers.

No, it's true for all skimmers(save Speeders, who do indeed die to a sneeze).


It's guaranteed not to be shooting next turn. (just like the Falcon) With 4 glancing hits however - there is a very strong probability that it would be dead, or weapon destroyed as well - rendering it utterly uneffective at it's task.

Wonderful! So?


Have I MENTIONED a lascannon in any of my posts? I've been sticking to the Tau - specifically to the "massed medium firepower" that the Tau are supposed to be to use to down Falcons.

The Tau can mass more Str. 7-10 firepower than any other army. I would hazard a guess that if you're having trouble being shot up by Falcons you're doing something wrong.


NO unit is supposed to be so tough that it can survive 4 times it's point value worth of the weapons that are SUPPOSED to be the most efficient at killing it shooting at at multiple turns.

So, because Tau are supposed to be good at popping tanks - and they are, of course, being the best at it in the entire game, so much so that they've made non-skimmers essentially useless in the tournament metagame - they should be able to blow up what makes an Eldar army work with ease?


Except the rest of the army WILL be supporting. Toss in some jetbikes, or Dire avengers in a Wave serpent - and most of the eldar army can be in an enemies face or fire support range whenever they choose to attack.

So what you're saying is that 1200+ points of an army, applied to an enemy's force in a concentrated area, is capable of smashing through an opponent's army.

I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked. :wtf:


Sure - it's nice if you can do it. *Really* brutal Eldar players use multiple harliebombs supporting each other. Just how many sacrifical units are we supposed to be bringing to feed to Harly bombs?

Three. Shouldn't need more than that.

And I find it hilarious that a Tau player is griping about the indestructability of units. Oh no! Something made it across the field against the firestorm of high-strength, long-range guns to a place it can threaten the JSJ crisis suits! It must be broken!

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 20:10
3 Crisis Suits with PLasma Rifle plus Missile pod will (on average of course), keep the thing perma glanced all game. That means zero turns of shooting. If a falcon shoots it's because of 1 of 2 things:

1. it spent the entire previous turn hiding behind terrain, so if your not a very mobile army, (nid's, Guard, some SM builds), that means you couldn't shoot it to glance it.

2. You didn't shoot it, sorry but it's your own fualt then for letting it run around like that IMHO.

Woo hoo - Brilliant plan there. :rolleyes:

Let's see. I glance it - and the spirit stones likely keep it from shooting. So it uses it's vastly superior speed to run away and hide behind a piece of area terrain for a turn, gets unshaken, and then comes out and starts shooting. The pulse laser is S8 AP2 with a 48" range . That makes it a halfway decent antitank platform, combined with the fact it is a fast skimmer - pretty much means anything on the board is a viable target.

Even the Falcons on delivery duty generally can dump their cargoes on turn 2 or 3 - spend a turn clearing the shaken, and then get a round or two of firing in. Even one vehicle kill goes a long wayt towards offsetting their cost - especially since *I* probably won't be getting any points for killing *them.*

carl
05-10-2007, 20:31
Woo hoo - Brilliant plan there.

Let's see. I glance it - and the spirit stones likely keep it from shooting. So it uses it's vastly superior speed to run away and hide behind a piece of area terrain for a turn, gets unshaken, and then comes out and starts shooting. The pulse laser is S8 AP2 with a 48" range . That makes it a halfway decent antitank platform, combined with the fact it is a fast skimmer - pretty much means anything on the board is a viable target.

Even the Falcons on delivery duty generally can dump their cargoes on turn 2 or 3 - spend a turn clearing the shaken, and then get a round or two of firing in. Even one vehicle kill goes a long wayt towards offsetting their cost - especially since *I* probably won't be getting any points for killing *them.*


You do realise that even with 3 rounds of shooting their eithier going to have to be killing Termies or a tank to make any significant part of their cost back and that a few pulse laser shots DO NOT have that much chance of killing a tank.

3 Crisis Suits with Fushion Blasters plus Plasma Rifles will do a much better job against any vehicle, (other than a falcon), than a Falcon will in any given shooting phase and aren't significantly more expensive, (AFAIK). Sure they will probably need 3 turns to get into range, but that makes ot a fair comparision.

Sorry but the falcon DOES NOT have major firepower if it's running in to deliver cargo, some JSJ Crisis suits should be ready to jump behind any nearby terrain and hit it if it jumps behind terrain close to you, and if it stays at a distance it's not dropping it's cargo.

The falcons Pulse laser has aout the same chance of imobbolising or destroying an AV12 non FMS tank as your Plasma Rifle+Missile pod tripple Crisis Suit team has of immobolising or destroying the Falcon. Fairs fair.

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 20:38
Of course you would. I bet you'd pay 100 more! Easy to say in dumb net debates. Not so easy to put into practice with an army list.

Didn't say a 100 more. But then again - I've been known to use Land raiders too - in my Marine armies. But for a hammerhead with the survivaiblity of Falcon - believe you me - I would find the points....


Because I play competent opponents who realize that a Falcon is completely neutered the moment whatever's inside is gone, mostly.

We must play differnt people then. My standard Eldar opponent knows that the Pulse Laser is a fairly good antitank platform - so he withdraws them as soon as it finishes it's deliverys and then goes a'hunting... The Falcon is dangerous until it loses the pulse laser. *Then* it's pretty much neutered.


So you're really, truly, trying to say that a good way to go Hammerhead hunting is with meltaguns? Think about this for a moment before you respond.

Not a *really* good way - I'll grant you; but they work better on Hammerheads than they do on any of the Eldar skimmers. And look at all the "IG drop" armies that ONLY use meltaguns for tank hunting... (not to mention the fire dragons in a Wave serpent I've seen a few times)


The Tau can mass more Str. 7-10 firepower than any other army. I would hazard a guess that if you're having trouble being shot up by Falcons you're doing something wrong.

So, because Tau are supposed to be good at popping tanks - and they are, of course, being the best at it in the entire game, so much so that they've made non-skimmers essentially useless in the tournament metagame - they should be able to blow up what makes an Eldar army work with ease?

One - the fact that the Falcon makes the Eldar army "work with ease" IS the problem. EVERY army has a risk versus reward ratio. To get great rewards - you *should* have to take risks. Putting Harlies in a Falcon - driving it in front of an enemy unit and saying "Hah - just TRY to shoot me down" is no risk at all.

In response to your question. No. What I am saying if the army that is *supposed* to be the best antitank army in the game CAN'T put down *one* Falcon tank with an entire turn of shooting *everything* - especially with many, *many* weapons that are "supposed" to be "the one you SHOULD be using"; then yes, that tank might be a little too good.


So what you're saying is that 1200+ points of an army, applied to an enemy's force in a concentrated area, is capable of smashing through an opponent's army.

I am shocked, I tell you. Shocked. :wtf:

And conversely - 1200 points of an army that is supposed to be one of the best shooting armies inthe game CAN'T destroy one tank - then there may be a balance issue with that tank... :rolleyes:


And I find it hilarious that a Tau player is griping about the indestructability of units. Oh no! Something made it across the field against the firestorm of high-strength, long-range guns to a place it can threaten the JSJ crisis suits! It must be broken!

Laugh away, then. But be honest.
Eldar shooting isn't bad.
Eldar close combat units are some of the best in the game.
Eldar manuverability is almost unrivaled.

So obviously - you *have* to have the most broken tank in the game - just to make the Eldar army work... :wtf:

carl
05-10-2007, 20:48
What I am saying if the army that is *supposed* to be the best antitank army in the game CAN'T put down *one* Falcon tank with an entire turn of shooting *everything* - especially with many, *many* weapons that are "supposed" to be "the one you SHOULD be using"; then yes, that tank might be a little too good.

That idea might apply if we where dealing with a Leman Russ, or LRC, or Preadetor, or Hammerhead, or some other tank thats has a hekll of a lot of firepower and isn't glanced on 4's and 5's by most multi-shot medium S weapons.

The point is however that the Falcon DOES NOT have the firepower of the aformentioned tanks and it IS easilly glanced by multi-shot Medium S weapons, (unlike your hammerhead you claim to detest so much). That means it needs such silly survivability to ever be able to get any of it's points back, and you get them back more through it being a damage sink.

At the end of the day the falcon makes it';s VP's back by doing just what you describe. Absorbing every single weapon an army can throw at it turn aftyer turn. The trick is to just throw enough at it to keep iot from shooting as much as possibble and lather the rest of the army with firepower.

It gets rediculous with 3 because suddenly most of the elda army is damage sinks rather than one small part of it, (in effect their isn't a "rest of the army" to lather with the m,ajority of your firepower).

Keichi246
05-10-2007, 21:03
You do realise that even with 3 rounds of shooting their eithier going to have to be killing Termies or a tank to make any significant part of their cost back and that a few pulse laser shots DO NOT have that much chance of killing a tank.

Again - it only has to "make it's cost back" if you are going to lose one. Odds are - you aren't. Every casualty it dishes out is "effectively" a freebie.


3 Crisis Suits with Fushion Blasters plus Plasma Rifles will do a much better job against any vehicle, (other than a falcon), than a Falcon will in any given shooting phase and aren't significantly more expensive, (AFAIK). Sure they will probably need 3 turns to get into range, but that makes ot a fair comparision.

You have a point. But those three Crisis suits - with that load out - RARELY last a game - so they HAVE to kill stuff. (they have to get too close to the enemy withy the Fusion blaster) Fusion blaster suits are almost inevitably "suicide squads" - they can kill one target - but usually die in the following turn - because they can't get enough distance from it's buddies...


Sorry but the falcon DOES NOT have major firepower if it's running in to deliver cargo, some JSJ Crisis suits should be ready to jump behind any nearby terrain and hit it if it jumps behind terrain close to you, and if it stays at a distance it's not dropping it's cargo.

Sure - because it is so *easy* to have every piece of area terrain within 24" of my lines covered by a Crisis team. ;) And not be putting said Crisis team in mortal peril...


The falcons Pulse laser has aout the same chance of imobbolising or destroying an AV12 non FMS tank as your Plasma Rifle+Missile pod tripple Crisis Suit team has of immobolising or destroying the Falcon. Fairs fair.

What are you smoking?

Crisis team - 6 BS3 MP and 3 BS 3 PR. Statisticaly - they should get about 1 glance - with a 4/36 chance of imobilizing or destroying a Falcon.

Falcon vs AV 12 (not Skimmer moving fast) Pulse laser. 2 shots - 1 hit. 1/6 of the hits will glance, 2/6 will pen. 1/36 chance of a glance kill + 12/36 chance of a pen kill = 13/36 chance of a kill.

That's a wee bit better than 4/36 - isn't it?

Edit: And I don't detest the Hammerhead - I love it to death. I think it is priced about right for what it does. My problem is that certain people compare the price of a Hammerhead to a Falcon. They then say say the Falcon isn't as shooty as a Hammerhead (whcih is arguable) so obviously it has to be so much tougher...

Honestly - without the holofield - I'd have NO problem with the Falcon. Even if it had the Wave Serpent "reduce all strength" field - I'd be fine with it. It is the synergy of the Eldar vehicle equipment that is the problem....

Zerosoul
05-10-2007, 21:06
Didn't say a 100 more. But then again - I've been known to use Land raiders too - in my Marine armies. But for a hammerhead with the survivaiblity of Falcon - believe you me - I would find the points....

Of course you would. And I'd find the points for a 300-point Falcon if I could have Vect's shield on it, too.

The point I'm trying to make is that comparing point costs across armies is useless. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - it's why "how many points did you kill" comparisons are meaningless. Points costs are balanced WITHIN armies. Not ACROSS armies. I can pay 200 points for a squad of, say, Chaos Marines with a fancy Icon, or I can pay that same 200 points and take a squad of grey knights. Who shoots better? who hits harder in CC? Guess what? It ain't the Chaos Marines. But the Marines have advantages the GKs don't thanks to the nature of the lists. A falcon isn't priced the same as a Hammerhead because they're two different armies.



We must play differnt people then. My standard Eldar opponent knows that the Pulse Laser is a fairly good antitank platform - so he withdraws them as soon as it finishes it's deliverys and then goes a'hunting... The Falcon is dangerous until it loses the pulse laser. *Then* it's pretty much neutered.

A two-shot Strength 8 weapon is merely an okay anti-tank gun with BS3. And again, if you're getting shot with a pulse laser, then your opponent must not be a good Eldar player. In all my time playing 40k, I've never had occassion to use the Pulse Laser, and I think I've seen it done twice when the Eldar player had literally nothing else to deal with a Carnifex. If you're not shaking a Falcon every turn - which should be simple to do with Tau - then it's your fault you're getting shot. That doesn't make the Falcon a great battle tank any more than the fact I can put a Havoc Launcher and a combi-weapon on my Chaos Rhino makes it a great battle tank. If Falcons didn't have transport capacity, they would be utterly worthless.



Not a *really* good way - I'll grant you; but they work better on Hammerheads than they do on any of the Eldar skimmers. And look at all the "IG drop" armies that ONLY use meltaguns for tank hunting... (not to mention the fire dragons in a Wave serpent I've seen a few times)

So, what you're saying is, an army maxed out in a certain way has no way to deal with a certain set of circumstances? Uh-oh! Broken!

Or not. If I play an all-Genestealer list with 60-80 'stealers, I accept the fact I'll be whupped on by Skimmer armies. If I take a list where the only anti-tank is meltaguns, well, it's my fault for being dumb and not getting ready for all circumstances. All lists built like that have an Achilles heel. It's what you get for not taking an all-comers list. Not all lists should be equally viable in all circumstances.



One - the fact that the Falcon makes the Eldar army "work with ease" IS the problem. EVERY army has a risk versus reward ratio. To get great rewards - you *should* have to take risks. Putting Harlies in a Falcon - driving it in front of an enemy unit and saying "Hah - just TRY to shoot me down" is no risk at all.

Of course it's a risk. Being hard to shoot down doesn't mean invincible. And if the Falcon goes down on the turn it does the 24" "next turn you die" move then you've eliminated at least 400 points from the opponent and taken a significant part of their battle plan out.

And you misinterpreted what I was saying, anyway(my fault due to poor phrasing). Holofields are the only thing that make the Eldar HS tanks worth taking. Straight up. Without them they are utterly worthless. They don't "make the Eldar army work with ease". They make it work, period. I was trying to say that the fact that Tau can't detonate a Falcon with the same ease they do every other tank in the game doesn't mean it's broken. It means you need to adjust your tactics.


In response to your question. No. What I am saying if the army that is *supposed* to be the best antitank army in the game CAN'T put down *one* Falcon tank with an entire turn of shooting *everything* - especially with many, *many* weapons that are "supposed" to be "the one you SHOULD be using"; then yes, that tank might be a little too good.

Because you can't roll well doesn't make a tank broken, either. Mathhammer is great. It's great fun. But you know what? I actually play Eldar(no Falcons!) and against Eldar on a regular basis. I have never seen a Falcon stand up to the amount of concentrated fire on the table in an actual game. Stats are just what you can expect on average, not in any given game.



Laugh away, then. But be honest.
Eldar shooting isn't bad.
Eldar close combat units are some of the best in the game.
Eldar manuverability is almost unrivaled.

So obviously - you *have* to have the most broken tank in the game - just to make the Eldar army work... :wtf:

Falcons are good. Great, even. Amazing! I love them(well, I don't, but in theory).But the only thing they do is survive. That's it. They're not good killers of anything(despite what you continue to say, this is actual experience from actual Eldar players disagreeing with you), they're not good at anything except reliably getting across the table. I'm not trying to downplay Falcons. Probably the best transport in the game. But they're not broken. Hell, they're almost entirely worthless in Escalation games, which is a third of games(you ARE playing scenarios and not just doing Mathhammer, right?), unless you take an Autarch as well, which just jacks up the price by at least 100 points. So yes. Given infinite points for infinite support, Falcons are unstoppable. In real games of 40k, where you're limited by what you can take, they're not nearly as bad.

I'm stunned this is the state of the 40k metagame. A tank is broken because it doesn't blow up like every other tank in the game.

Vandur Last
05-10-2007, 21:09
The problem is that you need to look at multiple unit summaries to understand one unit. For example, Elrad. The runes of warding and all are described in the Farseer entry. It doesnt tell you that. The same for Autarchs--To find out what Mandiblasters do, you need to look at the Striking Scorpion entry. A new player wont necessarily know that Scorpions have Mandiblasters, or might assume that Mandiblasters arent explained in that section either.

Eldrad's a Farseer, look up Farseers to see what he does. Autarchs use Aspect equipment, look up the Aspects to investigate his options. Really, people, how hard is it?

I suppose the next complaint is that there USR's arent in the codex and you have to look up the rulebook in the special rules section when you want to know about special rules..?


Only thing i really didnt like is that Shuriken Catapults are still 12".

Halfpast_Yellow
05-10-2007, 21:44
Two things.

1) Harlies shouldn't be allowed to ride in Falcons.
2) Holofields should become a flat 4+ save to all hits, and priced accordingly (cheaper for Vypers, etc)

Only two real balance issues though, the rest of the codex is great.

Starchild
05-10-2007, 22:02
I'm stunned this is the state of the 40k metagame. A tank is broken because it doesn't blow up like every other tank in the game.I tend not to rely of Falcons much. In my last game, my Falcon with a spirit stone was taken out by a lucky sniper rifle shot from a Kroot mercenary.

I'd much rather see the Falcon more deadly on the attack (with BS4), but easier to destroy. I agree with Mad Doc Grotsnik though; for the points paid to make it uber, it's about right for what it does. All the opponent has to do is keep it stunned, and the threat is effectively removed.

MuttMan
05-10-2007, 22:23
Oh, an eldar thread. Even though I play eldar, I dont play like a few new fellas play at my gaming club. Well its not cheesy per se, its just the combination of things that simply overpower. I am seeing multiples of these armies now, and now its getting drastic.

Gamer since 1999, lots of points in most armies at least tried, majority chaos player and orks when their re-released. Now, not to complain or anything, but it took me 14 games to win against this army. Each game progressivley putting things more in my favor with a more cookie-cutter/cheese style army. Until I finally had to do 60 raptors and various other bits to get up and tie his army long enough to munch it.

I'll post the list so you can see what I mean... Average about, 37 dead marines a turn average. At best I've seen it munch 61 marines in a single turn, poor infiltrating DIY player... Just 2k points..

128(1)Farseer: Doom, Jetbike, Singing Spear, Runes of Warding
175(5)Dark Reapers: Reaper Launchers
175(5)Dark Reapers: Reaper Launchers
175(5)Dark Reapers: Reaper Launchers
170(10)Fire Dragons: Fusion Guns + Wave Serpent: T-L Shuriken Cannons
170(10)Fire Dragons: Fusion Guns + Wave Serpent: T-L Shuriken Cannons
170(10)Fire Dragons: Fusion Guns + Wave Serpent: T-L Shuriken Cannons
124(3+1)Eldar Jetbikes: TLSR + Warlock: Destructor, Singing Spear
124(3+1)Eldar Jetbikes: TLSR + Warlock: Destructor, Singing Spear
124(3+1)Eldar Jetbikes: TLSR + Warlock: Destructor, Singing Spear
124(3+1)Eldar Jetbikes: TLSR + Warlock: Destructor, Singing Spear
====1989

T/5:50+81+66+12=209 in 5 turns(+rerolls for doom)

Army would play like this. Depending on the enemy and their intent, for melee players he would down the transports almost instantly with his 5 spears, and if need be his TLSC's and if that failed he would throw some fusion guns at them. Fish of fury tactics along with sacrificing his bikes to block the path of some orks or gants in their movment phase. (spread just enough to cover about 12" from bike 1 to bike 4) He do that twice or so and the player wouldnt be able to get into melee until it was too late. If a unit could happen to take all 15 reapers worth in firepower, he would doom that unit to well, ya know... Doom it.... Reapers are 4.4 dead marines a turn and the fire dragons are 5.5 dead marines a turn. The bikes total using the heavy flamer power (getting like 5 under template) is something like 2.4 dead marines a turn. The charging spear guys with ablative wounds made short work of dreads so thats no weakness. Big critters never survived enough firepower after being doomed+fusion gunned/reaped. I know, down the transports and eat the reapers but here is what he does...

He ties you up with the bikes as best he can until his fusion guns get up there, and when the bikes get close, they often pop a few of your tanks. I've seen the results (not the actual battle) of him facing off against a 13 or 14 leman russ tank company, and he left 2 tanks un-harmed by the end of turn 2. People bragged about it but it was nice the Eldar player didnt brag one bit, that much I could say. So when I challenged him I threw a hundred marines at him, that didnt work (they all died by the end of turn 4).. I then tried the bike+terminator+daemon bomb thing, that was chopped up and the termies got mutilated very badly. (some bad luck there I admit) then I tossed 300 guardsmen at him, just as a joke and to my suprise, only 20 were left by the end of turn 5 and they were fleeing. (damn heavy flamer powers!) Then I started to get more serious with transports and min/max plague marines followed by some defilers to try to bash him hard, that failed pretty quick. Only survived until turn 3 with 1 unit left.

Now I started to question balance here but I realised the player was good at doing what he was doing.. SO with further attempts with more specialised types, then I gave up after game 12. I went home, defeated badly and started devising the army since I only bring about 13k to play with every weekend. I had a planned engagement with the guy the day after, and until then I heard he won about 10-12 more games, most only lasting until 2 or 3 with the other player giving up after heavy losses. Then I heard he got beat by a Sisters of Battle army, about 140 of them (suprise!) and then after that I heard a disintegrator/dark lance heavy army beat him up. So when I came back I had about 40 raptors with transport marines and such, the raptors all died that game, so then I tried 60 raptors. About 13 of them made it to assault on turn 2, and thankfully after a stressful game of him missing alot, I managed to win out of sheer luck by the start of turn 6. (I got first turn thankfully and busted 2 wave serpents)

I had to over specialise and I tried various lists, he beat up other various lists and most players that challenged him are quite experienced players. Now, I hear 3 other players are building similar lists and I'm asking, is this an oversight?

I was upset at first but then realised it was only a matter of time until that super list gets devised, just like the bike daemonbombing lists and such. Every balanced list thrown at him however lost more horribly then the specialised lists. (he could pick things apart if unsupported so well it was heart breaking)

After about 50 games over 9 days with this army, its won well over 40 of them. A similar list had been built with dark eldar, but nothing that can kill such a high caliber of marines.

I appreciate any input but this is more of a rant then anything else, even if I may seem civil about it. (I will never build that army if my life depended on it!)
Even a speculation-list of the rumoures from the new ork codex was swamped. ya know, the one about orks being 6 pts each, elite rokkit squads and other nasties.

Not a plea for help, just a heads up if you ever face this army, watch out..

Halfpast_Yellow
05-10-2007, 22:33
Sorry, but in a 40k world of Victory Points and objectives, a fast moving near-unkillable tank that can transport an effective unit does break the 40k metagame.

Being unable to shoot for a turn does not make such a unit a non-threat. Heck, if it had 3 guns but couldn't shoot all game, it's still a threat! My unkillable Falcon was nearly single-handly responsible for destroying an entire 1000 points of Tau in Seek-And-Destroy Alpha by tank shocking through his lines from one side of the board to the other, strategically dropping of an Autarch and 5 Striking scorpions wherever it suited. It didn't shoot once, but it didn't have to. For the whole game it was absorbing firepower left right and centre from practically the whole Tau army. How is this not broken? Near the end of the game I was practically apologising every time I did something with it because of it's over the top nature. Yes I realise this is anecdotal evidence, but I'm illustrating the point. Yes, my friend is a good Tau player.

If Holofields removed the SMF rule and allowed a Falcon to be penetrated, it would probably be still more useful than a Hammerhead. Incredible.

The fact of the matter, is, it's irrelevant how many points you pump into one because that's VP your opponent is unlikely to get. Infact, when you're trying to run VP denial it's an asset to have more points tied up that your opponent has a 4/36 chance of getting per glancing hit.

Shooting is just an irrelevant bonus. If the Falcon only had 3 shuriken catapults, it would still be worth it. That right there shows how broken it is.

Kahadras
05-10-2007, 22:45
All the opponent has to do is keep it stunned, and the threat is effectively removed.


I don't think it's removed, just prevented from being so much worse. The Falcon can still transport Fire Dragons or Harliquins into your lines and can not only keep the 200+ VP that they cost relativly save but can also claim/contest table quarters as well.

If the Falcon starts off hidden then it will get at least one turn of shooting in and possibly more if the Eldar player targets your best anti tank stuff for destruction first.

Kahadras

efarrer
05-10-2007, 23:16
I'm stunned this is the state of the 40k metagame. A tank is broken because it doesn't blow up like every other tank in the game.

Well yes. For the record a model which doesn't die like any other model in the game is alos broken. That's why the chaos book was rewritten, and they only had hard to kll models. The Falcon is harder to kill then any other model in the whole game, including massive bricks of armour, and can still carry out it's missions (typically dumping troops) with ease. Keep in mind all it has to do is dump it's squad any where near the foe and then hide and it will deny table corners and keep it's vp safe. The fact it can kill it's points values easily itself is generally missed.

MadDogMike
05-10-2007, 23:53
I tend to find the Falcon's troubles mainly stem from the skimmer rule to begin with, so it's more a basic rules issue as opposed to Eldar specific. The amount of points that need to be pumped into them also helps a little bit. It might be worth making them 0-1 or something; at the least making some of the addons in that category would remove the cheese complaints. I'm more concerned about Harlequins; they ARE unbalanced because they fail one of the basic rules of 40K design in my opinion - shooty units more vulnerable to assault, assaulty units more vulnerable to shooting, vulnerability scales with your power at your role so super CC units are often terrified of being caught in a bad shooting position and vice versa for good shooting units. Making Harlequins untargetable unless you move within their assault range breaks this principle in my view, especially since they are VERY deadly CC units (Rending + high mobility + ability to ignore cover + striking first = almost maximum possible deadliness). Being gods in assault but NOT really being vulnerable to deadly shooting units is broken. Besides it goes against fluff badly by making everyone taking them; Harlequins are supposed to be relatively rare, every battle with Eldar shouldn't go into "send in the clowns" mode. Oddly enough this would be relatively simple to balance really; kick shadowfield out to regular night vision 2d6x3" range and shooting units have a fighting chance. If it's good enough for the Tau stealthfield it's good enough for the Eldar equivalent :D. Might or might not need a 4+ armor save to compensate for the change, not sure. Might be better to just leave them their 5+ invulnerable because that could introduce a meaningful tradeoff between Harlequins and Howling Banshees, which would encourage more taking of the latter. Scorpions would be toughest with weakest attack, Harlequins the opposite, and Banshees about right in the middle.

The_Outsider
06-10-2007, 00:23
You know something is wrong when a tank from a race known for being fragile is harder to kill than the fabled monolith - the supposedly toughest tank outside of FW.

Voodoo Boyz
06-10-2007, 00:50
I hear how the Falcon is expensive, all I ever see are 165 Point Falcons with Holofields, Spirit Stones, and a Shurican Cannon.

Because Vectored Engines really don't do a whole lot for you, because if you lose the Falcon on the turn before it delivers the Harlies you've pretty much screwed anyway. Plus once it lands it's super easy to kill.

The part that makes it so terrible is that it doesn't die, takes too much firepower, delivers squads with impunity, and then claims objectives and gets units OFF objectives via Tank Shock.

So yeah, all that for 165, the Vectored Engines rarely do anything in terms of real points denial and the Falcons rarely take more than 2 turns of shooting (sometimes one, depending on terrain) before they deliver their payload, and then it gets to hide behind terrain when shaken. Multiply that by three, and you understand just how bad it gets.

As if it was somehow "OK" even with the points cost for Vectored Engines factored in. Nothing should be that durable.

efarrer
06-10-2007, 01:03
I hear how the Falcon is expensive, all I ever see are 165 Point Falcons with Holofields, Spirit Stones, and a Shurican Cannon.

Because Vectored Engines really don't do a whole lot for you, because if you lose the Falcon on the turn before it delivers the Harlies you've pretty much screwed anyway. Plus once it lands it's super easy to kill.

The part that makes it so terrible is that it doesn't die, takes too much firepower, delivers squads with impunity, and then claims objectives and gets units OFF objectives via Tank Shock.

So yeah, all that for 165, the Vectored Engines rarely do anything in terms of real points denial and the Falcons rarely take more than 2 turns of shooting (sometimes one, depending on terrain) before they deliver their payload, and then it gets to hide behind terrain when shaken. Multiply that by three, and you understand just how bad it gets.

As if it was somehow "OK" even with the points cost for Vectored Engines factored in. Nothing should be that durable.


Vectored engines are no brainers for a falcon because, if you are playing with enough terrain you have at least the first turn to move because you don't start in sight. The vectored engines protect that hell squad inside so that they can safely remove themselves from the tank even if it is knocked out of the sky. And they will be in range if you moved them far enough.

Voodoo Boyz
06-10-2007, 01:09
So you're buying insurance for a small squad of Fire Dragons (96 Points) or a 162 point Harlie squad.

Sorry, the chances of it happening are minuscule for the one or max two turns you're exposed anyway.

Most of the competitive games I've played against Mech Eldar they didn't have VE's on their Falcons and they are every bit as bad as the normal ones because once one goes down it's utility is gone. It's the fact that 99% of the time unless you've got your own Maxed out army (or Necrons), you're not going to down one anyway. Even less as codex's get redone.

Fact is Falcons don't have to be expensive to be survivable and do all the main things that makes the Falcon itself dangerous (scoring, tank shocking off objectives, points denial, fire diverter).

That's what wrong with Codex: Faclon Grav Tank...errr....Eldar.

Tulun
06-10-2007, 01:16
Oddly enough this would be relatively simple to balance really; kick shadowfield out to regular night vision 2d6x3" range and shooting units have a fighting chance. If it's good enough for the Tau stealthfield it's good enough for the Eldar equivalent :D.

Not that I don't partially agree with your premise, doing that would make Harlequins completely worthless, except when mounted (which won't fix the problem people have with them anyway).

You forget with Tau suits, they can JSJ, and that coupled with the field (and they have 3+ saves... let's not forget that...) is why Stealth suits work. They also only need to get within 18" to do damage, as opposed to assault range.

Not to say that Harlequins don't need adjusting, but that change wouldn't stop Falcon bombing, and it would basically make walking Harlequins totally worthless. A single round of shooting can easily route a Harle squad.

I would say that Harlequins need a 0-1 limit (because they should be rare) and it would make the other elite slots more competitive, since you'd have 2 to fill. 1 Squad of 10 walking harlies (or 6 mounted) aren't going to break the enemy force.

demicanadian
06-10-2007, 01:49
Crisis Suits & Stealth Suits are kind of odd choices as comparisons, IMO. Stealth Suits have the stealth field, but you can still drop templates on them & it doesn't hurt you the same way if you charge at them as compared to Harlequins. XV-8s may have J-S-J and shield drones... but you add 2x Shield Drone to a Fireknife XV-8 and you can buy how many Harlequins for the same points (to compare apples to oranges)?

Here's another comparison... Genestealers have no tough transport to move them across the board. They have a 4+ at best (A round of shooting just bounces off your Genestealers?). They don't have access to invulnerable saves. They don't get Veil as mobile cover. They don't get pistols to shoot before charging. They lose Fleet when moved forward with a Broodlord.

I'm not saying that Genestealers suck... far from it. It's just that Harlequins are pretty amazing.

Halfpast_Yellow
06-10-2007, 02:52
Footslogging Harlequins aren't broken in the slightest, because they can be countered in a multitude of ways. They are an average to poor unit IMO.

It's the combo of Harlequins and Falcons that needs fixing. It just seems silly to deny them Waveserpents, yet allow them to travel in Falcons.

Stealers are in a completely different army that can take flying Hive Tyrants, Gaunts, etc. They are a troops choice and are cheaper. No valid comparison.

Kasonic
06-10-2007, 02:52
Between the rise of the Falcon and the points increase of Lascannons, it seems to me that Autocannons are the all-around best heavy weapon of choice, even for Tau(Missile Pod).

They're just really good and effective in all situations. It's too bad I chose to build an SM army over Chaos. WTB 4-AC Devastators :cries:

Say no to AV14!

sebster
06-10-2007, 03:54
A single falcon isn't going to stretch the AT of a balanced list. They're hard to kill but they'll either lack weaponry or be very pricey.

I've heard all sorts of horror stories but nothing more than I've seen with all sorts of tanks... they'll dominate one game and be utterly useless the next. That's the nature of vehicles in 40k.

It's when people take 3 falcons with holo-shields that you start seeing a list that most balanced lists can't account for. Most sensible folk won't take something that exploitative, but tournaments don't work that way. Perhaps limiting holofields to only one of your falcons would have done the trick.

Nazguire
06-10-2007, 05:09
I've seen several people mention that Codex Eldar and the Codexes that have followed in turn are lacking in some unspecified way. I haven't had a chance to look over the DA codex so I can't speak for it. The White Dwarf BA codex was lame I can understand that, but I was very pleased with the new Eldar Codex.

I would really like the opinion of the community on why you feel that the codex is substandard compared to the books prior to Codex Eldar.

thanks
Malakai

The Eldar Codex is just badly laid out. Compared to the 'new' Codices (Chaos, Blood Angels, Dark Angels) you spend an hour just locating everything you need for the game.
Harlequins are mixture of attrociously good and hideously bad but then again that's the case with most Eldar units, if you stuff up you pay for it.

Autarches in my mind weren't all they could be just due to weapons options. You can have a few Str 3 Power weapon attacks or a heap of higher strength, armour save allowing attacks, but no real medium in between.

Farseers could have been better. They are meant to subtly affect the battlefield, yet I don't think they accomplish that well enough.

Other then that I don't have an issue with it.

Keichi246
06-10-2007, 05:32
Of course you would. And I'd find the points for a 300-point Falcon if I could have Vect's shield on it, too.

The point I'm trying to make is that comparing point costs across armies is useless. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - it's why "how many points did you kill" comparisons are meaningless. Points costs are balanced WITHIN armies. Not ACROSS armies. I can pay 200 points for a squad of, say, Chaos Marines with a fancy Icon, or I can pay that same 200 points and take a squad of grey knights. Who shoots better? who hits harder in CC? Guess what? It ain't the Chaos Marines. But the Marines have advantages the GKs don't thanks to the nature of the lists. A falcon isn't priced the same as a Hammerhead because they're two different armies.

Which is *******' hilarious because YOU were the one that started the Hammerhead /Falcon comparisons back in post 153 of this thread. To quote:

And how much does a suped-up Hammerhead cost versus a suped-up Falcon? And a Hammerhead outguns it by how much, and has how much higher front armour? I merely responded to that question.


A two-shot Strength 8 weapon is merely an okay anti-tank gun with BS3. And again, if you're getting shot with a pulse laser, then your opponent must not be a good Eldar player. In all my time playing 40k, I've never had occassion to use the Pulse Laser, and I think I've seen it done twice when the Eldar player had literally nothing else to deal with a Carnifex. If you're not shaking a Falcon every turn - which should be simple to do with Tau - then it's your fault you're getting shot. That doesn't make the Falcon a great battle tank any more than the fact I can put a Havoc Launcher and a combi-weapon on my Chaos Rhino makes it a great battle tank. If Falcons didn't have transport capacity, they would be utterly worthless.

So you are saying that if an Eldar player gets his tank to the objective - has it get shaken, and manages to get that same tank to a safe location where it can clear the shaken - he's a BAD player?

Oh - I see now. You think every Falcon on the field is MEANT to be a fire magnet constantly. He rotates them out to so he can actually get to fire the guns he's paid points for.

Yes - if a Falcon didn't have transport capacity - it would be a pretty lousy tank. But it DOES have transport capacity, multiple ok guns, and near godlike survivability. That makes it an amazing IFV.


So, what you're saying is, an army maxed out in a certain way has no way to deal with a certain set of circumstances? Uh-oh! Broken!

Or not. If I play an all-Genestealer list with 60-80 'stealers, I accept the fact I'll be whupped on by Skimmer armies. If I take a list where the only anti-tank is meltaguns, well, it's my fault for being dumb and not getting ready for all circumstances. All lists built like that have an Achilles heel. It's what you get for not taking an all-comers list. Not all lists should be equally viable in all circumstances.

You know - it's talk like this that makes Eldar players seem like such asses sometimes. If a theoretical Tau force optimized for Tank killing can't knock down a falcon in a reasonable timeframe (ie the time it has before it drops an uber nasty assault squad in my lap); then how in the hell is a "less than optimized" take on all comers list supposed to? *That* was my original question.

So far the answers have ranged from "use Missile pods - they should work" (which I proved as an incorrect idea by using the theoretical max number of Crisis suits), to the ever so helpful "use better tactics" (including the "use a sacrifice unit", which presumes my Eldar opponent is stupid enough to send his Harlies after it. He isn't).


Of course it's a risk. Being hard to shoot down doesn't mean invincible. And if the Falcon goes down on the turn it does the 24" "next turn you die" move then you've eliminated at least 400 points from the opponent and taken a significant part of their battle plan out.

Right - and as a betting man - you'd win far more often than you would lose. 1/36 chances of it dying to a glance. That 's far closer to a sure bet than you will find in most of the rest of 40k.


And you misinterpreted what I was saying, anyway(my fault due to poor phrasing). Holofields are the only thing that make the Eldar HS tanks worth taking. Straight up. Without them they are utterly worthless. They don't "make the Eldar army work with ease". They make it work, period.

Actually - I understood EXACTLY what you were saying - you just left the perfect opportunity open. :p I just disagree with your point. Plenty of Eldar armies are wandering around without uber Falcons - and I'm not hearing a whole lot of complaints saying they are "weak". Not to mention the fact that I see two other armies that use skimmers that seem to do ok without holofields. :angel:


I was trying to say that the fact that Tau can't detonate a Falcon with the same ease they do every other tank in the game doesn't mean it's broken. It means you need to adjust your tactics.

You simply don't get it. I'm not asking for the "same ease". I'm looking for "not *******' nearly impossible."


Because you can't roll well doesn't make a tank broken, either. Mathhammer is great. It's great fun. But you know what? I actually play Eldar(no Falcons!) and against Eldar on a regular basis. I have never seen a Falcon stand up to the amount of concentrated fire on the table in an actual game. Stats are just what you can expect on average, not in any given game. (snip)

I'm stunned this is the state of the 40k metagame. A tank is broken because it doesn't blow up like every other tank in the game.

Mathhammer is tool. It can be used as such. Mathhammer in this case is being supported by many, many, observations by many many players. So what does that tell us? That maybe - just maybe, mathhammer is correct in this case.

And regarding my personal experience - I haven't faced tri-uber Falcons yet. Merely dual Falcons. We roll for the missions each game. So far - I have yet to shoot down a single falcon. (stun , shaken, blow off crazy numbers of guns - but never a "kill") We've found that it's speed and durability make it useful no matter what the mission is.

*sigh* It's obvious now that we will never agree. I am firmly in the camp that the uberfalcon combination is significantly overpowered - simply due to it's uncharacteristic toughness as a transport. You feel it is appropriately costed (perhaps even overcosted) - because of a perceived weakness in shooting. We will not manage to convince each other of the validity of our viewpoints.

Orbital
06-10-2007, 07:45
I generally think the Eldar codex is really well made. I have a few minor complaints about it. No major ones.

Layout-wise, I'm fine with it. It's fluff, bestiary, data, pics, reference sheets. Really simple. When I crack the book open, my fingers automatically get within striking distance of the information I'm looking for before I even glance at the page. I would have liked to have seen points values included in the bestiary. This would have made it easier for me to see ALL the data I want in one place. For instance, I'd like to know how much a Howling Banshee costs and what the Executioner does without having to flip pages. Not a major problem (especially as I memorize more of the codex), but it does bug me from time to time.

Rules-wise, I have three recurring issues:
- Falcons are just too powerful for the price. People compare them to Land Raiders, but they're far harder to kill and pack amazing offensive power. If you want to kill a goobed-out Falcon (Holo Fields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines), then you have to roll to hit... then you have to roll to glance... then you have to reduce all penetrating hits to glancing... then you have to roll one D6 and get a 6... then you have to roll another D6 and get a 6. Plus, it's considerably smaller and faster than a Land Raider and can dish out as many as 9 heavy weapon shots per turn (and that's not taking into account what the passengers can do once they hop out). I like the Falcon, but it needs to be more vulnerable, especially if there's no speed bump to stop people from taking three.
- Starcannons are no longer a useful choice. Ok, so in 3rd ed Starcannons were S6/Ap2/Heavy 3 and were relatively inexpensive, points-wise. Ok... so they should be toned down. No problem. Make them Heavy 2? Much better. But they were also boosted *much* higher in points. One or the other would have been fine. As it is now, Starcannons are my last choice for heavy weapons, period.
- Harlequins shouldn't be allowed to ride in any transports. They can fleet of foot, they can completely ignore cover, and they can tear almost anything to confetti by shooting (Death Jester and Fusion Pistols can be packed into a very small unit), and that goes triple for hand-to-hand (Furious Assault? Hit and Run? Rending? WS5? Initiative 6? 4 attacks on the charge? Are you kidding me?). Their main weakness is their vulnerability to shooting, so any rule which reduces that vulnerability pushes them into the "a bit to strong" realm for my taste. Possible alternative would have been to make the Venom (an AV10, open-topped skimmer with one gun and 6 passenger capacity) on option. At least then they would have still had to be afraid of incoming fire. Not so within the typical Falcon.

I'm also not mad for the fact that two of the same weapons on a Wraithlord count as a Twin-Linked weapon, though the costs don't take this into account. Not a real big deal, but a bit illogical to me.

Otherwise, no complaints. Really.

cruzcontrol39
06-10-2007, 07:52
Hmm, well since i was a Biel Tan player... I hate the new dex. I really don't like the way GW is going with the dex's. I play DA and CSM and those new dex's suck!!! GW is taking all the flavor out of the armies. It seems like they are stream lining everything and making the game more 12yr old friendly. I miss the Armory and just the ability to make your army special. Don't even get me started on the CSM dex. i really miss my sword wind army and basically all the special rules for the variant craftworlds. Now everyone plays pretty much the same type of army. I really miss the different flavors in all the new codexs. Oh well i pretty much quit 40k since 4th and so have most of my friends. Thank god Fantasy is still a good game until GW decides to dumb that down too so they can push sales to kids.

Kasonic
06-10-2007, 08:05
Hmm, well since i was a Biel Tan player... I hate the new dex. I really don't like the way GW is going with the dex's. I play DA and CSM and those new dex's suck!!! GW is taking all the flavor out of the armies. It seems like they are stream lining everything and making the game more 12yr old friendly. I miss the Armory and just the ability to make your army special. Don't even get me started on the CSM dex. i really miss my sword wind army and basically all the special rules for the variant craftworlds. Now everyone plays pretty much the same type of army. I really miss the different flavors in all the new codexs. Oh well i pretty much quit 40k since 4th and so have most of my friends. Thank god Fantasy is still a good game until GW decides to dumb that down too so they can push sales to kids.

I still don't understand this sentiment.

CRAFTWORLD ARMIES HAVE BARELY CHANGED.

Biel Tan lists are different, yes. But you've got 3 Aspects in Elite, 1 in Troops, 3 in FA, and 1 in HS. It's not like they've completely crippled your ability to take Aspects.

No other Craftworld lists have changed.

Every single piece of Wargear in the 3E Eldar Armoury is in the 4E Codex. Yes. Your precious armory is completely intact.


Why do people have this illusion in their heads that because your beloved Space Marine Captain was able to take pointless points-dumps like Bionics or Purity Seals, he's somehow "less fluffy" when he can't? Or that a Death Guard army that was left completely intact, only better, by the change from 3E to 4E is somehow "less fluffy" because the construction of the army is no longer under heavy restrictions, just built that way by your own choice?

:wtf:

These complaints make it sound like mastering a martial art is to finger-painting as playing 3E is to playing 4E. It's not so, and it never will be. Don't be so full of yourself.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 08:23
Footslogging Harlequins aren't broken in the slightest, because they can be countered in a multitude of ways. They are an average to poor unit IMO.


So how do you counter the Clowns with Tyranids, if the Eldar player holds back two units Harlies as counter charge unit behind his own models on the table edge, near a Farseer, that Dooms or Fortunes, and hot&runs them back, before you can countercountercharge them? Since there are so many ways, i am sure you can name at least one, that doesn't involve half of my army getting ripped to pieces by 500 points of Eldar.



Stealers are in a completely different army that can take flying Hive Tyrants, Gaunts, etc. They are a troops choice and are cheaper. No valid comparison.
So you mean, a cc army that NEEDs Genestealers to arrive at the enemy lines or the army is screwed, should have a worse cc unit than an army, that would work fine without ANY cc specialist at all...?
Genestealers are perfectly fine as they are right now, considering Tyranids as a whole. Harlies are not. The best cc unit in the game for an army, that doesn't need them? Great...

cruzcontrol39
06-10-2007, 08:26
I still don't understand this sentiment.

CRAFTWORLD ARMIES HAVE BARELY CHANGED.

Biel Tan lists are different, yes. But you've got 3 Aspects in Elite, 1 in Troops, 3 in FA, and 1 in HS. It's not like they've completely crippled your ability to take Aspects.

No other Craftworld lists have changed.

Every single piece of Wargear in the 3E Eldar Armoury is in the 4E Codex. Yes. Your precious armory is completely intact.


Why do people have this illusion in their heads that because your beloved Space Marine Captain was able to take pointless points-dumps like Bionics or Purity Seals, he's somehow "less fluffy" when he can't? Or that a Death Guard army that was left completely intact, only better, by the change from 3E to 4E is somehow "less fluffy" because the construction of the army is no longer under heavy restrictions, just built that way by your own choice?

:wtf:

These complaints make it sound like mastering a martial art is to finger-painting as playing 3E is to playing 4E. It's not so, and it never will be. Don't be so full of yourself.

Well let me just say with the new codex's you can pretty much glance through them once and go ok figured this out and no the craftworld army is not there. Sure i can have 3 squads of scorpions and/or ban like i used to, but they are not troops choices and there goes my comp score. I have a BTan army!!!! I don't have many Gardians and of course no Dire Av because they sucked. I have Aspect warriors that should be troops no matter what aspect they are because that is the fluff of Biel Tan!!!! So now i got to buy more models because GW made stuff that sucked good and stuff that was good not so good anymore, nice try GW, but hell no! Also where the hell is my Crystal Targ Matrix and my Star Cannon with a Hvy3?

Orbital
06-10-2007, 08:39
CRAFTWORLD ARMIES HAVE BARELY CHANGED.


No other Craftworld lists have changed.
You are so very wrong about this. Here are some of the things that are no longer available which were previously allowed for Craftworld-specific lists:
- Black Guardians (and by that I mean 8 point infantry that have BS/WS4).
- Seer Councils (Fine to take two Farseers and add Warlocks, but you're not only limited to *just* two Farseers, but you use both HQ slots, too).
- Court of the Young King
- Spear of Khaine
- Biel Tan Armies which take more Aspects than the Force Org chart would normally allow (for instance, 4 squads of Howling Banshees)
- Biel Tan Armies which don't wish to take Dire Avengers
- Wraithlords as troops (with the Wraithguard "tax"), thus freeing up the HS slots.
- Alatioc Disruption Tables.
- Don't even get me started on Ulthwe Strike Force (may it rest in peace).

More subtle but very penetrating is the way that *limits* on what you can take have changed: You can find Spiritseers and Pathfinders in the same list... a Seer Council and an all-Jetbike troop army... or a Seer Council on bikes... etc. etc.

And this is just off the top of my head.

If you are an Eldar player who uses these armies, then these changes aren't trivial. Not by a long, long shot.

Be aware that I am not commenting at this point on whether they should or shouldn't be changed; I am telling you that your claim asserting that Craftworlds haven't changed at all is untrue.



It's not so, and it never will be. Don't be so full of yourself.
Good advice. For everyone. If you get my drift. :)


Hmm, well since i was a Biel Tan player... I hate the new dex. I really don't like the way GW is going with the dex's... GW is taking all the flavor out of the armies.

I really agree with you on these points. I miss the flavor as well... and it's not you: GW is, in fact, homogenizing and narrowing options.

Before we take aim at GW for this, however, we need to be realistic about why they need to do this: Gamers abuse the lists and, therefore, options which are abusable have to be taken away. This is not to suggest that abuse can't happen in any list, but some options make it easier than others. Ever faced someone who plays an Ulthwe Army with 30 Warlocks in their Seer Council? Every played against someone with a Saim Hann army that fields 18 Vypers with Starcannons? Ever played against someone's Alaitoc army that's tooled out just to maximize Disruption tables? If you have, thank those people for the way that options have been closed off in the new codex. If not for gamers who have to find and tool out the most cheesy, unfair loopholes to gain advantages that were never intended. Those are the players who forced GW's hand in the design of the new codex and left us with less flavor.

Orbital
06-10-2007, 08:42
Also where the hell is my Crystal Targ Matrix and my Star Cannon with a Hvy3?
Those things are gone because players used them in such a way as to gain an unfair advantage.

WLBjork
06-10-2007, 09:17
You are so very wrong about this. Here are some of the things that are no longer available which were previously allowed for Craftworld-specific lists:
- Black Guardians (and by that I mean 8 point infantry that have BS/WS4).
- Seer Councils (Fine to take two Farseers and add Warlocks, but you're not only limited to *just* two Farseers, but you use both HQ slots, too).
- Court of the Young King
- Spear of Khaine
- Biel Tan Armies which take more Aspects than the Force Org chart would normally allow (for instance, 4 squads of Howling Banshees)
- Biel Tan Armies which don't wish to take Dire Avengers
- Wraithlords as troops (with the Wraithguard "tax"), thus freeing up the HS slots.
- Alatioc Disruption Tables.
- Don't even get me started on Ulthwe Strike Force (may it rest in peace).


None of which was in the original codex either.

Black Guardians - the only time they got a +1WS/BS buff was with C:CWE. Every other time they've been Guardians in black-coloured armour.

Seer Council - too open to (admittedly very tricky to pull off correctly) abuse. Also, a unit created to fit the background (see below).

Court of the Young King/Spear of Khaine - units created to add rules to background. Like so many such events, they weren't all that great.

None Biel Tan armies could (and still can) field 15 Aspect Squads. Biel Tan could field 6 (or 9? Can't remember on Dark Reapers).

Given that the most common Aspect is Dire Avengers, any Biel Tan army without them was being unfaithful to the background.

Wraithlord Troops - not the best of ideas, again it was a case of rules to fit background.

Alatioc Disruption Table - quite possibly the most complained about item from C:CWE.

Orbital
06-10-2007, 09:26
You're missing my point. Please note that I also said: "Be aware that I am not commenting at this point on whether they should or shouldn't be changed; I am telling you (Kasonic) that your claim asserting that Craftworlds haven't changed at all is untrue."

I am not judging the units I mentioned. I am saying that there is a difference between Craftworlds as they were in 3rd ed and as they are in the current codex. I believe that point still stands.

p.s. You may also have missed what I said at the end of my post about how those very same things get abused, thus forcing GW's hand to remove them or change them.


None of which was in the original codex either.

Black Guardians - the only time they got a +1WS/BS buff was with C:CWE. Every other time they've been Guardians in black-coloured armour.

Seer Council - too open to (admittedly very tricky to pull off correctly) abuse. Also, a unit created to fit the background (see below).

Court of the Young King/Spear of Khaine - units created to add rules to background. Like so many such events, they weren't all that great.

None Biel Tan armies could (and still can) field 15 Aspect Squads. Biel Tan could field 6 (or 9? Can't remember on Dark Reapers).

Given that the most common Aspect is Dire Avengers, any Biel Tan army without them was being unfaithful to the background.

Wraithlord Troops - not the best of ideas, again it was a case of rules to fit background.

Alatioc Disruption Table - quite possibly the most complained about item from C:CWE.

sebster
06-10-2007, 10:17
So how do you counter the Clowns with Tyranids, if the Eldar player holds back two units Harlies as counter charge unit behind his own models on the table edge, near a Farseer, that Dooms or Fortunes, and hot&runs them back, before you can countercountercharge them? Since there are so many ways, i am sure you can name at least one, that doesn't involve half of my army getting ripped to pieces by 500 points of Eldar.

A points equivalent block of gaunts will beat harlies handily.

A flying tyrant with twin linked devourers can land a few inches from the harlies and shoot them to pieces.

Besides that, it's always risking to rely on counter charge when you don't have a 12" charge range. If the enemy assaults cleverly you may not actually be able to reach his important assault units in your own turn. There's also the chance, especially with 'nids, a single turn assault can break through enough points to make the counter charge too little, too late.

Carlos
06-10-2007, 10:27
absolutly nothing. Its perfect.

if your too dumb to not work out to flick between the army list section and the unit summaries then that your problem.

The only issue i have is the placement of the summary. Itd be better on the very last page for instant reference.

This.

The new eldar codex is perfect, as every army has its Grotesques/Raveners/Possessed/Vespid etc that has no use. There is no squad in the eldar codex that does not have a place. Even the never seen storm guardians can be useful. No other codex has the right balance of making the player happy, making all the units usable, bringing back loads of fluff and maintaining enough flexibility to keep all players happy.

Oh, and could you imagine if Seer councils were still in the codex, with no model limits? Apocalypse would be absurd, with people fielding 100-model seer councils for the hell of it (I would)

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 10:34
A points equivalent block of gaunts will beat harlies handily.


On an open mathhammer board with nothing but Gaunts and Harlies: No. Because Gaunts don't have Synapse, so they will defenitely run away.
If you count in Synapse, then i have to count in anything in the Eldar army, that:
A. Shoots the Gaunts first
B. Kills the Gaunts first in cc (Striking scorpions, etc.)
C. Stands between the Gaunts and the Harlies ready for a counter-charge.



A flying tyrant with twin linked devourers can land a few inches from the harlies and shoot them to pieces.

How exactly am i supposed to do this, when the Harlies stand behind the Eldar gunline (everything hugging the corners), without getting the Flyrant destroyed in turn one by Doom supported Starcannons, Pathfinders, Scatter Lasers and Bright Lances?



Besides that, it's always risking to rely on counter charge when you don't have a 12" charge range. If the enemy assaults cleverly you may not actually be able to reach his important assault units in your own turn. There's also the chance, especially with 'nids, a single turn assault can break through enough points to make the counter charge too little, too late.
Gaunts breaking through Wraithlords, Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers? Not very likely...

Maybe the Eldar player you are playing are acting stupid. My opponent doesn't. He knows exactly what he is doing with every unit available. He uses only units, that can survive a Gaunt attack (and backs them up with an Avatar, so they don't break, in case i win anyway). He shoots the Genestealers first and uses Harlequins and Striking Scorptions for counter-charging. And i have to charge, otherwise his Starcannons and Pathfinders of Doom kill one MC every turn and there is nothing i can do about it.

Depending on the scenario, i manage a win here and there and most of the time the game is close, but Harlies make an assault on Eldar troops suicide.

When the mission is just to destroy the enemy, i usually stay behind cover myself and wait for the game to end. Everything else would result in certain defeat.

carl
06-10-2007, 10:39
Given that the most common Aspect is Dire Avengers, any Biel Tan army without them was being unfaithful to the background.

Actually they are being VERY true to the background if they don't include any. The entire point of Beil-Tan is that they can and WILL field just about any type of aspect as their core troops because that aspect happens to suit their current tactical situation.

What really annoys me about these options being gone is that they where in no way totally broken, many just did not have adequate limitations placed on them, (max of 10 Warlock's, larger minimum squad sizes for Disruption Table, e.t.c.).

In reality I expect you'll just come back with a smart ass answer as your comments make it clear you play the game because you enjoy the actual rules and what not.

I and many others DON'T.

We play the game because of the background and would not play the game if said background did not exist.

When a codex fails to display any character that really links in with the background of the army, (Eldar and CSM I’m looking at you), we don't like it.

I dislike it so much I’ve decided I’m not going to bother using my Eldar any more, theirs no fun in it since the Codex in no way represents either a typical Craftworld or any specific Craftworld.


What are you smoking?

Crisis team - 6 BS3 MP and 3 BS 3 PR. Statistically - they should get about 1 glance - with a 4/36 chance of immobilizing or destroying a Falcon.

Falcon vs AV 12 (not Skimmer moving fast) Pulse laser. 2 shots - 1 hit. 1/6 of the hits will glance, 2/6 will pen. 1/36 chance of a glance kill + 12/36 chance of a pen kill = 13/36 chance of a kill.

That's a wee bit better than 4/36 - isn't it?

Edit: And I don't detest the Hammerhead - I love it to death. I think it is priced about right for what it does. My problem is that certain people compare the price of a Hammerhead to a Falcon. They then say the Falcon isn't as shooty as a Hammerhead (which is arguable) so obviously it has to be so much tougher...

Honestly - without the holofield - I'd have NO problem with the Falcon. Even if it had the Wave Serpent "reduce all strength" field - I'd be fine with it. It is the synergy of the Eldar vehicle equipment that is the problem....


I said immobilise or Destroy, they both get you VP's, and I will admit a calculation mistake, I forgot Tau Plasma Rifles where S6 not S7:o.

Heres the version corrected slightly:

A falcons pulse laser, (assuming 6 rounds of shooting in a normal game), will average 6 hits, of which 1 will glance and 2 will penetrate. Of those hits, a total of 1.667 will immobilise or destroy.

3 Missile Pods will average 18 hits over 6 turns, of which 6 will glance a falcon. that means 0.667 chance of damage.

3 Plasma Rifles would average 9 hits and 1.5 glances with 0.16666666 chance of damage.

Total for crisis suits: 0.833333333333


However the key thing to remember is that a Falcon really shouldn't be shooting you more than 3 turns out of 6. The crisis suits on the other hand will be very difficult for the Eldar player to deal with. Falcons really DO NOT have the firepower to take them out on their own and the Eldar player is unlikely to be able to afford a dedicated fast moving anti-termie unit AND his troops choices if he takes a harlie bomb. Eldar troops choices really aren't all that dangerous to the Crisis Suits if you take the rest of the Tau Army into account. Whilst some CS WILL die over the course of a game, If they get even 5 turns of shooting they come damm close, (they where a lot closer with my plasma rifle mistake, so fairs fair they aren't as good as I made out:o) to the Falcons own Firepower, and against other AV12 targets they soundly beat the Falcon out every which way.

TBH most Tau players tend to use multiple Fish of Fury attacks from 3 different angles to unload 12 rapid firing Fire Warriors into the rear of the falcon. They tend to do a hell of a lot of damage to them.

My point on the hammerhead is simply that compared to a Falcon it’s much better. It’s Burst Cannon/Missile pods are easily as effective as the Scatter Laser + Shuriken Cannon on a Falcon whilst the Railgun beats a PRISM CANNON, let alone a Pulse Laser. The hammerhead is like a Fire Prism with a pair of Scatter Lasers added on really.

As to the Holo-Field. I agree it was badly done, (I think it should just limit all shooting at Eldar vehicles to a max range of 36”, that’s the same as most Eldar weaponry), but I’ve tried Grav tanks without them and almost any army in the 3rd ed version, (let alone the current version with it’s neutered spirit stones), could blow my fire prism out of the sky by turn 3, and that was at 750pt’s. The fact was, (and is), that a falcon/fire prism could never successfully deliver it’s passengers or do enough damage with it’s own weapon to earn it’s VP’s back WITHOUT the current Holo-Field. Put CTM back in, (which WAS counter-able with indirect fire and fast moving units of all kinds, as well as deep strike and a few others), and I’d agree with a big HF nerf though.

The other problem is that the Falcon isn’t really given the survivability level to match it’s price, it’s given the survivability level to match the price of itself and it’s cargo, (probably because a dead falcon equals dead cargo, unlike most other expensive transports). Weather that’s a good idea is debatable IMHO, but it does mean the Falcon has a durability more appropriate to a 350-400pt tank than a 200-250pt tank.

Kasonic
06-10-2007, 11:04
When a codex fails to display any character that really links in with the background of the army, (Eldar and CSM I’m looking at you), we don't like it.

I dislike it so much I’ve decided I’m not going to bother using my Eldar any more, theirs no fun in it since the Codex in no way represents either a typical Craftworld or any specific Craftworld.

I'm sorry, this made me laugh out loud.

Did you think the Eldar were a soulless and nonsensical army before C:CE came out? The standalone 3rd Edition Codex in no way represents a typical Craftworld?

The Eldar don't represent the Eldar! :wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

IJW
06-10-2007, 11:17
I have Aspect warriors that should be troops no matter what aspect they are because that is the fluff of Biel Tan!!!!
You seem to be confusing a game-specific mechanic (FOC-slots) for background. 'Many Aspect Warriors' does not automatically mean 'all Aspect Warriors must be Troops choices', because Troops choices are something that doesn't exist in the fluff. Don't think I'm not sympathetic, as my entire Eldar army got turned into Guardians when WD127 came out, but you are being a bit too literal.

Anyway, I still regard CWE as a book that was far too focussed on caricature rather than character, and have sympathy for both the Eldar players and their opponents at the time. :( The CWE lists emphasised extreme lists which actually opposed the fluff that any one Eldar Craftworld has enough resources (in the scale of a single 40k game) to be able to field almost anything.

The_Outsider
06-10-2007, 12:05
If the falcon had the DE night shield instead of holo fields it would make life easier.

It would mean it would be a tad more difficult to gun it down at long range (compared to normal skimmers) and it would gain some protection from meltaguns but once it gets within about 24" its just as vulnerable as an AV12 skimmer can be.

Halfpast_Yellow
06-10-2007, 12:12
So how do you counter the Clowns with Tyranids, if the Eldar player holds back two units Harlies as counter charge unit behind his own models on the table edge, near a Farseer, that Dooms or Fortunes, and hot&runs them back, before you can countercountercharge them? Since there are so many ways, i am sure you can name at least one, that doesn't involve half of my army getting ripped to pieces by 500 points of Eldar.



I don't play Tyranids, but I assume that one of: Deepstrike n shoot them, fast moving shooty creatures, or just bury them in a sea of crap works with that army. Catalyst, Shadow in the warp, all handy. Your fast attack choices, all handy. A Lictor rapes the Pathfinders that give your Tyrant trouble, and gives your pheremone trail, etc etc.

I'm not here to tell you how to play your army. Perhaps your army composition is too limited, or your Eldar opponent is just a better player. Even so, Tyranids are just one army. If Harlequins do a little bit better against Tyranid armies, then perhaps it's just balancing out them getting raped by, say, Necron ones.


If the falcon had the DE night shield instead of holo fields it would make life easier.

It would mean it would be a tad more difficult to gun it down at long range (compared to normal skimmers) and it would gain some protection from meltaguns but once it gets within about 24" its just as vulnerable as an AV12 skimmer can be.

That would make Prisms a little bit rude. Not bad though.

However I'm still convinced a trick was missed by not making Holofields a straight out 4+ save against all incoming hits.

Misha
06-10-2007, 12:19
What I dont like about new codex?

Its the reaction of other players on harlequins. Everybody seems to be obssesed with them. Thay are no longer rare and mysterios Eldar from webway - whole mobs of them seems to acompany even the smallest Eldar strike force.

The apogeum of this obssesion struck me in one game when - after Elites layout my opponent asked me "whare are the Harlequins" (when in fact i didnt used any) :/

srintuar
06-10-2007, 12:29
So you mean, a cc army that NEEDs Genestealers to arrive at the enemy lines or the army is screwed, should have a worse cc unit than an army, that would work fine without ANY cc specialist at all...?
Genestealers are perfectly fine as they are right now, considering Tyranids as a whole. Harlies are not. The best cc unit in the game for an army, that doesn't need them? Great...

Spine gaunts, especially with catalyst, absolutely destroy harlequins

Try it

efarrer
06-10-2007, 13:36
I'm sorry, this made me laugh out loud.

Did you think the Eldar were a soulless and nonsensical army before C:CE came out? The standalone 3rd Edition Codex in no way represents a typical Craftworld?

The Eldar don't represent the Eldar! :wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Obviously some people did because Eldar were dissappearing before Codex Craftworlds. THe army was far behind the curve all through 3rd edition.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-10-2007, 13:39
They were a weak army, but that has nothing to do with your argument.

efarrer
06-10-2007, 13:41
Spine gaunts, especially with catalyst, absolutely destroy harlequins

Try it

What world do you live on?

Spine Guants are far to slow to handle the harlies (as they are probably mounted), AND don't need to oppose something that could threaten them. This also ignores that Tyranid Guant Horde is no longer even close to dominent in any eenvironment I've heard of.

srintuar
06-10-2007, 13:58
What world do you live on?

Spine Guants are far to slow to handle the harlies (as they are probably mounted), AND don't need to oppose something that could threaten them. This also ignores that Tyranid Guant Horde is no longer even close to dominent in any eenvironment I've heard of.



Lol, i play both tyranid and eldar, and it works very well.

For mechanized eldar you keep the guants near your gunfexes as a counter-charge unit.

For foot eldar you have them follow up your main push.

It works for me, i dont know why you have so much trouble

and the gaunts are so cheap its hilarous to watch them slaughter 20-30 point harlequins, which the eldar player cannot afford to lose.

You sound like a powergamer upset that soemone else has shiny toys. for their price, harlies are damn fragile.

gitburna
06-10-2007, 14:02
We play the game because of the background and would not play the game if said background did not exist.

When a codex fails to display any character that really links in with the background of the army, (Eldar and CSM Iím looking at you), we don't like it.

I dislike it so much Iíve decided Iím not going to bother using my Eldar any more, theirs no fun in it since the Codex in no way represents either a typical Craftworld or any specific Craftworld.


Carl,frankly that sounds like a cop-out. No longer represents a typical or specific craftworld ??!! I'm astounded/LOLing. With over a hundred craftworlds and because you are no longer straighhtjacketed to playing ulthwe/alaitoc/biel tan [the loss of the overly specific craftworld rules seems to be your main beef] you think its "Not representative"??

This codex opens up many otherplaying styles than "Sniper army/Massive points denial HQ/only pick the best elite units" and despite what you say about the background it seems to me that you're more bothered about the fact that people have more choice about what they put in their armies instead of being forced to play in one particular style [which was usually imbalanced to boot]

gitburna
06-10-2007, 14:03
What world do you live on?

Spine Guants are far to slow to handle the harlies (as they are probably mounted), AND don't need to oppose something that could threaten them. This also ignores that Tyranid Guant Horde is no longer even close to dominent in any eenvironment I've heard of.

Yes,because the marine killing metagame is obviously where its at when we're talking gaunts vs harlequins

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 14:08
Spine gaunts, especially with catalyst, absolutely destroy harlequins

Try it

No. Hormagaunts with Catalyst destroy Harlequins, granted they get there in the first place, which does not happen the way my opponent plays Eldar. And even if they reach the Harlies, i got to have a Hive Tyrant inside 24" and there is still a chance of over 50%, that the Catalyst does not work, so the Gaunts are wasted more often, than they are usefull.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 14:09
Lol, i play both tyranid and eldar, and it works very well.


Then maybe your Eldar opponent doesn't use Harlequins right... He has no, absolutely no need to expose his Harlequins, so they can be charged by Gaunts. If he does, he makes a stupid error.

There is no reliable way to beat Harlequins with Tyranids without sacrificing more than the Clowns are worth in points. If the Clowns were the only hard unit in the Eldar codex, that would be okay, but everything else is a viable threat too.

efarrer
06-10-2007, 14:13
Lol, i play both tyranid and eldar, and it works very well.

For mechanized eldar you keep the guants near your gunfexes as a counter-charge unit.

For foot eldar you have them follow up your main push.

It works for me, i dont know why you have so much trouble

and the gaunts are so cheap its hilarous to watch them slaughter 20-30 point harlequins, which the eldar player cannot afford to lose.

You sound like a powergamer upset that soemone else has shiny toys. for their price, harlies are damn fragile.

I don't paly Eldar. I have watched more games then I care to think about. If theh Eldar player can't peel away the soft wrapping on your fex's with the remaining 50% of his army he's doing something wrong. THe soft guants are just not good enough to deal with such a huge percentage of the game that they have become rather rare.

Because I live in a competitive area with a high perctentage of powergamer I can say :p regarding me having trouble with them.

As well for the math

Harlie charge on the guants is

5 harlies with kiss+Shadowser with kiss

24 attacks 16 hits (4 dead)
11 wounded 9 die after saves.

so 13 are dead maybe 6 attacks back (because if you cluster them any closer they died en masse to a Eldritch storm during the shoot phase).

efarrer
06-10-2007, 14:19
Yes,because the marine killing metagame is obviously where its at when we're talking gaunts vs harlequins

Metagame is always critical when building armies. If you fail to consider the metagame you lose more games on average then if you don't. And for the record as in the above post I've pointed out what a unit of harlies does to spine guants.

:)

Which as was stated by another poster fails to reflect that harlies aren't the only unit in the Eldar army that can deal with the hypothetical guants. And if you play in a guant heavy environment you just meta for that as well. My unit of choice would be to go to a 2 prism 1 falcon list were I an Eldar player.

efarrer
06-10-2007, 14:27
Carl,frankly that sounds like a cop-out. No longer represents a typical or specific craftworld ??!! I'm astounded/LOLing. With over a hundred craftworlds and because you are no longer straighhtjacketed to playing ulthwe/alaitoc/biel tan [the loss of the overly specific craftworld rules seems to be your main beef] you think its "Not representative"??

This codex opens up many otherplaying styles than "Sniper army/Massive points denial HQ/only pick the best elite units" and despite what you say about the background it seems to me that you're more bothered about the fact that people have more choice about what they put in their armies instead of being forced to play in one particular style [which was usually imbalanced to boot]

I love hearing this. You probably think the choas list is great because it removes the straightjacket of legions. The only thing these changes have done is homogenized lists. The powergamer list for Eldar should NEVER fail to include Eldrad, he's that darn good. 2 units of harlies are almost required, as they are better than ANY other Eldar unit at close combat. 2 Falcons seems to be the obvious choice for Heavy Support, although arguements can be made for 2 prisms. The new chaos list is similar, and we will see this played out over the next couple of years.

sebster
06-10-2007, 18:29
On an open mathhammer board with nothing but Gaunts and Harlies: No. Because Gaunts don't have Synapse, so they will defenitely run away.
If you count in Synapse, then i have to count in anything in the Eldar army, that:
A. Shoots the Gaunts first
B. Kills the Gaunts first in cc (Striking scorpions, etc.)
C. Stands between the Gaunts and the Harlies ready for a counter-charge.

Of course you count synapse, as the conditions for the question didn't include the tyranid player being a complete idiot. That doesn't mean you get to include any random Eldar element you think will help your argument, as we're talking about game conditions, not meeting the rules of some random hypothetical.

But you can count limited shooting at the gaunts, if you want. Given you're talking about a counter charge, most of the eldar units will be tied up in the assault, at which point you're probably looking at the shooting from the harlies themselves, plus a couple of vehicles. They're not going to make a dent in the 50+ gaunt bodies you'll be looking at to get anywhere near points equivalency.


How exactly am i supposed to do this, when the Harlies stand behind the Eldar gunline (everything hugging the corners), without getting the Flyrant destroyed in turn one by Doom supported Starcannons, Pathfinders, Scatter Lasers and Bright Lances?

How are you going to do this? Through competent manouvre. You have a jump capable unit moving 12" a turn. You may or may not make it into the rear zones of the enemy deployment, but that's going to stand or fall by your own competence, not the power level of harlies.


Gaunts breaking through Wraithlords, Striking Scorpions and Dire Avengers? Not very likely...

Who said anything about gaunts breaking through? I mentioned gaunts in the context of a unit capable of defeating harlies.

I mentioned tyranids in the context on breaking through the frontline, and that would be 'stealers, raveners and tyrants. Nothing that would be at all worried about wraithlords, let alone scorpions or avengers.

Was that genuinely a misread or were you just trying to score points?


Maybe the Eldar player you are playing are acting stupid. My opponent doesn't. He knows exactly what he is doing with every unit available. He uses only units, that can survive a Gaunt attack (and backs them up with an Avatar, so they don't break, in case i win anyway). He shoots the Genestealers first and uses Harlequins and Striking Scorptions for counter-charging. And i have to charge, otherwise his Starcannons and Pathfinders of Doom kill one MC every turn and there is nothing i can do about it.

I can't speak for the skill of you or your opponent. I have no idea if either of you are at all skilled, and it doesn't really matter, as your own abilities don't prove anything about a list.

It sounds like you need to sit down and seriously think about your list and general approach.


Depending on the scenario, i manage a win here and there and most of the time the game is close, but Harlies make an assault on Eldar troops suicide.

And I can tell you I've shot harlies to pieces before they've seen combat countless times, and my 'nid list isn't nearly as well equipped for the job as plenty of other lists floating around (seen what tornado heavy SMs can do?). And I've drowned them with gaunts just as often, just by picking and choosing the point of my assault.

If you just pile into his lines and accept his harlies will assault you'll probably lose... but I think it's a good thing that a poor assault strategy meets with failure.

sebster
06-10-2007, 18:34
This.

The new eldar codex is perfect, as every army has its Grotesques/Raveners/Possessed/Vespid etc that has no use.

Raveners?

They're not just a solid unit, they're downright excellent points value. That's a really odd call there.

zealot!
06-10-2007, 18:38
arguing on the internet. internet 1 - upset eldar players 0

i made a craftworld out of the new codex. click the link in my sig.

sebster
06-10-2007, 18:40
No. Hormagaunts with Catalyst destroy Harlequins, granted they get there in the first place, which does not happen the way my opponent plays Eldar. And even if they reach the Harlies, i got to have a Hive Tyrant inside 24" and there is still a chance of over 50%, that the Catalyst does not work, so the Gaunts are wasted more often, than they are usefull.

This is really, really not true.

At the considerably higher points cost hormagaunts are closer to the desperation answer for harlequins, they can work but it's only a good idea if you haven't got something better available. First port of call is always 5 point gaunt models.

It isn't rocket science, folks. When there's a unit that strikes first and strikes really hard, but is really feeble, then throw him the cheapest wounds you can find, and swamp him with numbers.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 19:03
Make a 2000 point game. The Eldar player should include this in his list:

1 Farseer
2 units of 8 Pathfinders
1 Fire Prism
2 units of 8 Harlies (with the usual stuff)
3 units of Dire Avengers
1 unit of Striking Scorpions
2 Wraithlords with Star Cannons

The Eldar deploys his Harlies and Scorpions shielded by Dire Avengers and Wraithlords. He is crammed into one corner of the board.

How exactly do you "choose" the point of assault? There are only the Dire Avengers and Wraithlords to assault. There is nothing to "choose". Everything else is BEHIND them, ready to counter-charge. He doesn't move, because the mission doesn't make him to.

DhaosAndy
06-10-2007, 19:03
The problem with the Eldar codex, from a non eldar players point of view is the nigh on impossibility of beating the 3 falcon, 2 harlie, 1 fire dragon + snipers/dire's/jet bikes as troops + autarch as HQ, with any MEQ army (not specifically chosen for the purpose) in any mission.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 19:12
It isn't rocket science, folks. When there's a unit that strikes first and strikes really hard, but is really feeble, then throw him the cheapest wounds you can find, and swamp him with numbers.

You can not swamp Harlies, because they clear the Kill-Zone, even when you are on the charge with Gaunts. Then they hit&run and distance units blast the unit into pieces or the Clown unit attacks again.

Let's say hypothetically a complete unit of 16 Gaunts can strike at a 8 clown unit of Harlequins. Harlies strike first. They kill 10 Gaunts. If i am unlucky, NOTHING can strike back now, because the killzone is clear now. Let's assume i can strike with 6 Gaunts (which usually is not the case). That kills 2 Harlequins. Wow... Impressive. Still a unit of 6 Clowns, that can Hit&Run 7" and then has additional 15" to charge anything in range, preferably my Hive Tyrant. Not to speak of the two other Clown units...
Attacking with multiple units of Gaunts? The Kill-Zone is not big enough to enable more base to base contacts realistically.

In case of catalysted Hormagaunts at least i am sure, that the clowns die. At least in <50% of the cases, because of the Rune of Warding. Well, maybe my Tyrant gets a Wound instead...

Orbital
06-10-2007, 19:12
The argument about Eldar being unfair goes on and on and on and on. Arguments about any army being unfair are rife (especially among those who lose to them), but the Eldar get singled out more than the others. There's a reason for this, but it's not because the Eldar are unfair... it's because they're specialized.

Let me give you an example: A Marine player trots (let's say) 8 Marines out from behind cover, hoping to make his move. From 48 inches away, 5 Dark Reapers lob 11 Reaper Launcher shots (3 being from the Exarch) and kills 6 Marines without so much as breaking a sweat. The Marine player is aghast. He might choose, at that moment, to react by saying the Eldar are broken and unfair and unbalanced and can't be beaten.

What he doesn't realize is that the Dark Reapers are extremely good at one thing and almost nothing else: Killing basic Marines at long range. He doesn't realize he just created the perfect conditions for the Reapers to do what they do best.

What he doesn't realize is that the Reapers can't move and shoot *at all*... that they don't have a CC weapon... that they are S3/T3... that they can't fleet of foot... they can't deep strike or infiltrate... they are bad tank-busters... they are bad at handling hordes... they can't even be taken in mass numbers (limit per squad is 5). Last, but not least, they cost more than twice a basic Space Marine's cost (35 points per Reaper, not including Exarch and upgrades).

The Marine player does not take into account that the Reapers are ferociously expensive and still very weak. He does not stop to consider that a Whirlwind template, deep striking terminators, a Devastator squad, a Drop Pod, a Dreadnaught, Fury of Ancients, or even a Marine squad that has the brains to stick to cover could make all the points the Eldar player spent on the Reapers a waste. All he saw was a unit of specialists operating in their optimal conditions, and he assumes that they always will no matter what.

Playing Eldar means using your Aspects in such a way so that they get to use their best skill and aren't forced to rely on their weak ones. People who lose to Eldar never remember when bolters saw down a squad of Howling Banshees, when Assault Marines beat Reapers into mulch, when Gaunts turn Fire Dragons into a fine red mist. All they remember is that one time they spoon-fed an Eldar Aspect their ideal situation and did not live to tell the tale.

Moral of the story: Eldar have some overpowered units, just like every army does (Falcons come to mind), but most of their heaviest-hitters really need to be in the precisely right time and place to work the magic. Learn what each Aspect is good at, and never give them a chance to shine in their favorite situation.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 19:15
Learn what each Aspect is good at, and never give them a chance to shine in their favorite situation.

Agreed. Like assaulting distance specialists and killing cc specialists before they reach cc... which you can't in case of Harlies...

Orbital
06-10-2007, 19:20
I've been playing Harlies lately. If they're not in a Falcon then you have ample opportunity to blast away at them from range before they get into contact with you.

If they're in a Falcon, you're screwed.

Stingray_tm
06-10-2007, 19:23
What army are you playing?

Orbital
06-10-2007, 19:27
What army am *I* playing? Eldar, sir.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-10-2007, 19:27
Since he has been playing Harlies I would assume Eldar. ;)

EDIT: Beaten to it by seconds...

carl
06-10-2007, 19:31
Carl,frankly that sounds like a cop-out. No longer represents a typical or specific craftworld ??!! I'm astounded/LOLing. With over a hundred craftworlds and because you are no longer straighhtjacketed to playing ulthwe/alaitoc/biel tan [the loss of the overly specific craftworld rules seems to be your main beef] you think its "Not representative"??

This codex opens up many other playing styles than "Sniper army/Massive points denial HQ/only pick the best elite units" and despite what you say about the background it seems to me that you're more bothered about the fact that people have more choice about what they put in their armies instead of being forced to play in one particular style [which was usually imbalanced to boot

As I predicted, a smart ass comment that totally misses the point.

Limitations are as important to providing a list with character as options are.

The point I was making and you simply cannot understand, (because your more interested in rules which are fun to play irrespective of background, than in rules that are interesting to play because they represent the race in question).

Yes their are many different Craftworlds out their, however most follow certain basic principals in how they organise their armies, the relatively small differences present are represented by the levels of flexibility allowed in the default list.

However the current list goes far beyond this and gives players a number of options that just wouldn't turn up in normal armies. Probably the worst example is Guardian Jetbikes as troops, Only specific Craftworlds, (like Saim-Hann), have enough Jetbikes to form to core of an army. Their are other examples though in the form of Dire Avengers and Pathfinders.

I don't really mind DA's being Troops choices, (their has to be some verity in the list at the cost of fluff or the lists will be too restrictive), but the current DA's vs. Guardians situation is such that DA's have become the core of most Eldar armies. This totally violates the basic tenant of Aspect warriors, (as emphasised by Beil-Tan's background), that no Craftworld has enough Aspect Warriors of all types put together to form the core of the army. With the way non-aspect FA and Elites choices are so weak and the overly good DA's, this simply never holds true.

Pathfinders are pure oddness because they're supposed to be rare even in Alitoch armies. In any other army they'd probably be so rare that you'd never see entire units formed of them, (they'd probably lead standard ranger squads, a bit like Exarches).

In reality though, apart from the Guardian Jetbikes it's not the extra options that bother me, the Eldar just don't have enough non-aspect choices that aren't HS for proper levels of aspect warriors to fit, (although the failure to do anything good with guardians makes my blood boil), likewise the Pathfinder thing is more a niggle than anything else.


What DOES bother me is that the new list isn't really capable of accurately representing any of the more specialised layout of Eldar forces except maybe those of Saim-Hann in a competitive form.

Iyanden really isn't competitive and they stripped one of it's biggest competitive edges out, (the ability to take 3 WL AND 3 HS choices). They stripped Beil-tan of it's ability to field an Aspect heavy force that represents Beil-Tans ability to field larger numbers of different non-DA aspect warriors. and Ulthwe was totally destroyed with it's Guardians muttered completely and the seer council is gone. Alitoch is somewhat okay, although in it suffers severe power issues due to the poor power of rangers for their price, and lacks the ability to field a decent number of rangers in ADDITTION to it's core non-ranger army.

I suspect you still don't get the point though. In the end we see the world in totally different ways and where not going to see eye to eye.


You just want to plan a list any way you like regardless of the background because it's unimportant to you.

I want to see people planning lists that are true to the background, and the ability to represent some of the more unique organisations accurately.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-10-2007, 19:37
So your main complaint is that there are not enough restrictions on what an Eldar player can take in his army? Are you a crack addict? There are no restrictions stopping you smoking crack, and yet you probably do not. Why not?

Orbital
06-10-2007, 19:41
I actually don't mind restrictions. So long as they're balanced with fair options and bonuses, they really add to the character of an army. Example: Spiritseers, Pathfinders and Eldrad Ulthran in one army makes for an interesting list, but dilutes the character somewhat.

Slaaneshi Slave
06-10-2007, 19:45
So don't take them. The options are there so people can make the various craftworld lists, but nobody is forcing you to make lists which break established fluff.

sebster
06-10-2007, 19:50
You can not swamp Harlies, because they clear the Kill-Zone, even when you are on the charge with Gaunts. Then they hit&run and distance units blast the unit into pieces or the Clown unit attacks again.

They might clear the kill zone, if you failed to get enough gaunts into b2bb. That can sometimes happen, if you were stretching your assault. Of course, there's plenty of games where can assault with full numbers, plenty of games where your gaunts can pile in around the harlies and fully surround them, making hit and run impossible.


Let's say hypothetically a complete unit of 16 Gaunts can strike at a 8 clown unit of Harlequins. Harlies strike first. They kill 10 Gaunts. If i am unlucky, NOTHING can strike back now, because the killzone is clear now. Let's assume i can strike with 6 Gaunts (which usually is not the case). That kills 2 Harlequins. Wow... Impressive. Still a unit of 6 Clowns, that can Hit&Run 7" and then has additional 15" to charge anything in range, preferably my Hive Tyrant. Not to speak of the two other Clown units...
Attacking with multiple units of Gaunts? The Kill-Zone is not big enough to enable more base to base contacts realistically.

The gaunts cost 80 points, the harlies with the always taken shadowseer cost 206 points. Holy crap! The unit costing two and half times as much wins!

Maybe you can run the maths through with 40 gaunts, if you want a fair measure of their abilities.

Assuming no-one is charging (as with 8 harlies they can't be falcon mounted, and with two fleet units they're equally likely to get the charge), the harlies will strike first and kill 9 gaunts on average (don't know how you got 10, perhaps you double counted the hits from rending and regular attacks?). From there you can estimate whatever number getting their own attacks back ). With 12 return attacks they'll kill 2 harlies to get their points back, any more and they'll be ahead. From there they pile in and cut of the harlie retreat.

Add catalyst and it get real ugly, real quick for those harlies.


In case of catalysted Hormagaunts at least i am sure, that the clowns die. At least in <50% of the cases, because of the Rune of Warding. Well, maybe my Tyrant gets a Wound instead...

No, really, no. Really, really no.

Take the maths you run with gaunts. Take an extra point of weapon skill (irrelevant against harlequins). Take an extra attack per model, and then halve the number of models you're fielding due to points cost. So you've got 20 models to take out those harlies, not 40.

downundercadet07
06-10-2007, 19:51
I want to avoid the falcon/harlequin whine fest (yeah, its at least bent, and probably broken, avoid people that cheese it out. done) and just throw up what I thought could be improved

Pathfinders: an excellent unit, and can really hammer the correct type of enemy. Still they should have auto-passed target priority, had BS 5 (for the pistols), and been fearless to shooting casualties. Adjust points as appropriate.

Farseers: still feel a little light in the psychic department. I think more powers (especially a few more overt, mind-war esque powers), the ability to get a non special character farseer up to three casts a turn, and a default spell that let them directly target any enemy psyker on the board who uses a power and have a good chance at killing them would have been more appropriate than runes of warding.

The_Oni
06-10-2007, 19:53
It's the first codex I've ever really used, what with being bran new to the whole 40k thing. I thought it was pretty, but like alot of people have said, jumbled.

Orbital
06-10-2007, 20:00
So don't take them. The options are there so people can make the various craftworld lists, but nobody is forcing you to make lists which break established fluff.

Ok. Maybe I'm just not being clear: I tend to take themed armies because I like doing that. Not everyone does, and that's fine. I'm simply saying that having constraints and limits in the rules does not necessarily constitute a bad thing.