PDA

View Full Version : Bolt Throwers and Characters



knightime98
15-08-2007, 20:01
If a Bolt Thrower hits a unit of knights that only has 1 rank in the flank and a character is 2nd in line does he get hit second?

The book is not clear at all and always has their best case scenario with ranks and examples of how it is supposed to go. It never shows the examples of exactly, what is happening.

It states that rank and file models are automatically hit if there are 5 or more models in the unit. If the unit is less than 5 rank and file models then,
It says you "randomise" the "hit"... So, you randomise for each model one after another.... then say after the 2nd wound that the unit is now NOT 5 rank and file models but the character is still or now in the first position while you are shooting at the 3rd model.... What a mess. I am sure I'll get all kinds of commentary with little resolve for this at all.

All replies welcome and state your case as I am interested in what people think as there will be no concrete evidence showing otherwise. Thanks...

Negativemoney
15-08-2007, 20:39
I would play it like this if there is less that 5 RnF models in the unit then when the Bolt gets to his location he will be hit. If his unit is 5+ RnF models then he gets a Look out Sir when it reaches his location.

Basicly at this point I will treat the bolt similar to a cannon ball because the initial hit could only hit the model on the side and then continue thorugh the unit.

How ever this could also be played by randomizing each hit and wound between the unit and the Character. I feel that this might leed to some anoyance as the character will do a little shuffle in the unit when he is not supposed to. To avoid any complications used the method I described above.

Paluke
15-08-2007, 20:40
sorry for asking but what is RnF?

athamas
15-08-2007, 20:48
rank and file... ie 5 models... not US5

pcgamer72
15-08-2007, 20:53
Rank and File

DaBrode
15-08-2007, 20:57
I would play it like this if there is less that 5 RnF models in the unit then when the Bolt gets to his location he will be hit. If his unit is 5+ RnF models then he gets a Look out Sir when it reaches his location.

Basicly at this point I will treat the bolt similar to a cannon ball because the initial hit could only hit the model on the side and then continue thorugh the unit.


This is the most logical answer although I don't have my rule book with me.

WLBjork
15-08-2007, 21:40
D'oh, lets try that again.

Characters can only be hit if:

1)The rank consists entirely of characters (including champions)

2)There are less than 5 RnF models in the unit

Thus, if for some reason the unit was (T=Trooper (RnF); C=Character):

CTC
TCT
TTT

The bolt could hit up to 3 Troopers; the characters would be totally unaffected.

(Somehow in the intital post I managed to combine 1&2 to read that each rank was treated separately, which is not the case!)

T10
15-08-2007, 21:46
If a Bolt Thrower hits a unit of knights that only has 1 rank in the flank and a character is 2nd in line does he get hit second?

The book is not clear at all and always has their best case scenario with ranks and examples of how it is supposed to go. It never shows the examples of exactly, what is happening.


The rulebook is indeed vague at this point. Though the initial model to be hit wil in most circumstances be a rank-and-file trooper, the next model to be hit will be the "model" behind him.

In this case it is clear the bolt thrower intially hits the rank-and-file and proceeds to hit the character - the next model in line.

-T10

Masque
15-08-2007, 23:04
I think the original example was something more like this (where BT is the bolt thrower, K is a knight, and C is the character):

BT----------KCKKKK

The unit will provide no special protection to the character no matter how many RnF models are in it. Bolt throwers have an exception to the normal rules for shooting at characters in units. See page 90 of the BRB.

Another bolt thrower question (where BT is the bolt thrower and X is a RnF trooper):

-XX
XXX
XXX---------------------BT
XXX
-XX

The shot will initiatially hit the front rank, then the second rank, but will it hit the third? The rules do not mention incomplete ranks. The same question can be asked of a bouncing cannonball.

Crazy Harborc
16-08-2007, 02:25
An incomplete rank does not matter. What does matter......that the straight line representing the bolt's path of travels lays through 3 enemy troops.

Festus
16-08-2007, 05:20
Hi
An incomplete rank does not matter. What does matter......that the straight line representing the bolt's path of travels lays through 3 enemy troops.Straight line has got nothing to do with it - a Boltmay well zig-zag (as shown above).

The Bolt will hit a model in each rank (or file, depending on the arc), even in incomplete ones.

Festus

Steeve
16-08-2007, 12:18
Another bolt thrower question (where BT is the bolt thrower and X is a RnF trooper):

-XX
XXX
XXX---------------------BT
XXX
-XX

The shot will initiatially hit the front rank, then the second rank, but will it hit the third? The rules do not mention incomplete ranks. The same question can be asked of a bouncing cannonball.


The BRB specifically diagrams this situation; pg. 91 diagram 91.1

EDIT:
As for the cannonball, they don't calculate by ranks. Any model's base, touched by a line connecting where the cannonball hits and where it bounces to, suffer strength 10 hits. (BRB pg.87 under "Firing a Cannon" and Diagrams on pg.89)

Masque
16-08-2007, 14:25
The BRB specifically diagrams this situation; pg. 91 diagram 91.1

I'd missed the fact that diagram addresses a partial rank. Thanks for pointing it out.


EDIT:
As for the cannonball, they don't calculate by ranks. Any model's base, touched by a line connecting where the cannonball hits and where it bounces to, suffer strength 10 hits. (BRB pg.87 under "Firing a Cannon" and Diagrams on pg.89)

You might want to recheck page 87. A cannonball can only hit one model per rank no matter how many models it actually crosses. I'm going to take this to mean that a cannonball bouncing through a unit with a partial rear rank can only hit as many models as it crosses or as many models as there are ranks (including the partial) whichever is less.

Festus
16-08-2007, 15:00
You might want to recheck page 87. A cannonball can only hit one model per rank no matter how many models it actually crosses. I'm going to take this to mean that a cannonball bouncing through a unit with a partial rear rank can only hit as many models as it crosses or as many models as there are ranks (including the partial) whichever is less.A Cannon can hit as many models as raanks the cannon ball crosses. Not more, not less.
As a Cannonball establishes a physical path along the tabletop, there is no need for abstraction, it just hits one model in each rank it passes.

A BT on the other hand can hit up to as many models as the unit shot at has ranks/files.

Festus

Negativemoney
16-08-2007, 15:11
Just to be clear from what I remember about Look out Sir you make a LoS roll when a model is hit by anything that did not requre a roll to hit (not using BS), correct?

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 15:14
Correct, a bolt thrower will never give a LOS! roll.

LOS! applies only to non-BS based war machines, and spells that use templates.

EvC
16-08-2007, 16:29
Bonus question! If an entire unit is hit by a template weapon, can a character still takr a Look Out Sir! roll?

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 16:31
Absolutely, there's no reason why not.

Negativemoney
16-08-2007, 16:48
Now the question is (given the situation posted above) Only the first hit from the Bolt Thrower uses a BS any other hit is much in the same as a cannon ball going through the ranks with an undetermined range. Given this being the case (I don't have the rule book handy at the momement) wouldn't hits beyond the first (if the Character is the only option, 1 rank long 6 file wide) allow the Character to get a LOS?

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 16:50
No. The war machine uses BS, so LOS! does not apply.

Negativemoney
16-08-2007, 16:55
hmm just read the LOS rules and it is not about the hit but rather the warmachine shooting it. So he would not get a look out sir.

Now the other question is in a unit with 5 RnF models could a character be hit by a bolt thrower?

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 17:06
Yes, if he is the only model in the rank (or file, one would assume).

Negativemoney
16-08-2007, 18:49
Ok but given the example
xxxCxx <---- Bolt

Would he be hit as he is in a unit of more than 4 RnF models (note if it were a champion he would not be hit unless all 6 were wounded)

Atrahasis
16-08-2007, 18:55
YES. The rules for bolt throwers specifically and expressly allow a character to be hit in that situation regardless of the number of models in the unit.

Festus
16-08-2007, 19:01
Hi

To get the facts straight:

A Boltthrower's Bolt will generally hit a r'n'f model if it is able to do so - initially.
There is no LoS! at all, as the BT shoots using the normal to-hit-roll and the normal targetting. It is basically a giant bow -

The exceptions are:
The shot is not randomized as long as there is at least one r'n'f in the rank/file initially hit: It is always the basic grunt catching the Bolt. (Remember that a champion does not count as r'n'f for this, as he is treated as a character for missile weapon targeting purposes.)
If there are only Characters (including Champions) in the rank/file hit, you randomize which one actually is really hit. Otherwise it will always be a trooper.

Now the important bit:

As soon as the model hit initially is chosen, all further hits happen by the Bolt travelling directly on: The model directly behind the one just slain is hit - Character or not - it does not matter!

The Bolt will not Zig Zag anymore... it will travel straight on, to the model behind. And this will go through all the ranks (including incomplete ones: NB that the Bolt may now Zig Zag into the last rank, as it always has the chance to hit as mayn models as there are ranks/files in the unit hit.

All of this is to be read on p.90 of the BRB.

Festus

Masque
17-08-2007, 08:58
The shot is not randomized as long as there are at least five r'n'f in the rank/file initially hit: It is always the basic grunt catching the Bolt. (Remember that a champion does not count as r'n'f for this, as he is treated as a character for missile weapon targeting purposes.)
If there are only Characters (including Champions) in the rank/file hit, you randomize which one actually is really hit. Otherwise it will always be a trooper.

There only need to be 5+ RnF in the unit, not in the rank, to protect a character from being hit.

Festus
17-08-2007, 13:02
There only need to be 5+ RnF in the unit, not in the rank, to protect a character from being hit.
You are right, of course. An slip of thought on my account. I edited accordingly...

Steeve
17-08-2007, 14:05
You might want to recheck page 87.

DOH!, that's what I get for speed reading.

Sorry for the incorrect information.