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Petey
15-08-2007, 22:14
It occurs to me that they don't repeat army special rules between armies, therefor, if the HElves really do get Strike first, what does this mean for the DElves?

I ll hazard a guess here, that the dark elves will take a note from 40k and all get an additional attack on the charge.
What do the rest of you think we ll see?

W0lf
15-08-2007, 22:19
'It occurs to me that they don't repeat army special rules between armies,'

VC and TKs?

Petey
15-08-2007, 22:23
touche

Though i would scarcely call being undead an army special rule. Just like i wouldn't call being a deamon an army special rule. Well, we ll see.

opforce3
15-08-2007, 23:59
dark elves might get hatred of everyone, or the +1 attack on the charge, or both. although the +1 attack would be pretty insanse for some things (witches, knights). if they get anything, it'll be one of those two most likely

theunwantedbeing
16-08-2007, 00:08
The dark elves should really get the same strike first rule as the high elves do.
Both being basically the same elves,both being equally as skilled.
(if a HE archer gets it,every elf in the DE army is easily as quick as he is so they should get it as well).

As a HE specific rule,it basically screws over most DE players wishing to use anything bar chariots and shooting/magic to defeat a HE army with DE.
Hatred wont help in the slightest and it makes your units more able to be baited as you have to pursue with hatred.
+1 attack similarly wont help as they are fighting after the high elves,although it does make cold one knights a bit nicer.

Im hoping for strikes first as an elf rule,so all elves get it.
Failing that,armour piercing for all DE weaponry.

Those are the only 2 rules that make the current DE army able to deal with a Strikes first HE army.

Arnizipal
16-08-2007, 00:37
The dark elves should really get the same strike first rule as the high elves do.
Both being basically the same elves,both being equally as skilled.
Except when becoming Dark Elves they forgot to fight in three ranks with spears and how to cast 6 of the eight lores of magic. :p

EDIT: and High Magic too come to think of it.

Venkh
16-08-2007, 00:47
Perhaps DE could always get their attacks, even if they fall as casualties.

This would represent them either hacking at the foe even as they expire from their wounds or their extreme eagerness to get to grips with the foe.

I definately agree on Hatred.

1. It would be utterly useless vs our first striking cousins, While I dont think that HE and DE should be "the same" I cannot imagine the fluff justification for HE being so dominant in melee (something the DE should be at least as good at)
2. I dont want to lose any more control of my army. I have enough to worry about with Frenzy and Stupidity as it is.

This is all academic anyway, we wont be seeing the DE for a while.

Highborn
16-08-2007, 01:48
Any unit wishing to charge a Dark Elf unit must first take a leadership test. If they fail, they automatically fail their charge as they're too busy laughing at the emo kids.

chivalrous
16-08-2007, 03:05
GHAAK!

I'm tired of reading all this panic driven speculation about the Strikes First Rule.
We don't know the details, we don't even know what it's going to be called!
(Unless something's been unearthed since Avian updated the High Elf Thread in the Rumour Roundup)

We don't know that's it's going to be an all singing all dancing High elves always Strike first always for ever&everuntiltheuniversecrumbles&diessothere, in fact I distinctly remember reading numerous posts saying that it wasn't as shiny as 'Strikes first' suggests! It might just be as little as always strike in initiative order, in which case Dark Elves don't have anything to worry about when going head to head, in fact it'll have no effect at all if this is the case.

As for the suggestions that you've raised, there have been at least two very active threads on this in the very recent past here (http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-general-discussion/95478-de-not-too-distant-future.html) and here (http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-general-discussion/96187-new-dark-elf-book-theory.html).

WarSmith7
16-08-2007, 07:42
My poor Ogres, it's bad enough that chariots tear me up, but now my precious charge advantage is taken away aswell *cries*

Obviously the DE will get Hyper Strikes first as a special rule. it functions just like strikes first, but the DE's, being the former nation of super elven warriors, will be able to strike before everyone that strikes first. Easy.

Combined with thier armour piercing, giga-poisoned (wounds on a hit roll of 5-6+) weapons, and bam, Dark elves ala awesome...

Griefbringer
16-08-2007, 08:25
Obviously the DE will get Hyper Strikes first as a special rule.

I thought it was going to be called Strikes More Firster special rule, and that it could be only trumped by the Strikes Most Firstest special rule (which might be rumoured for some Slaaneshi characters in the next chaos book). :evilgrin:

Scythe
16-08-2007, 09:47
Of course, there will be the rule 'strike just a fraction before before strike first' as well. ;)

Man, this almost sounds as redicules as foregeworlds bloodthirster with an invulnerable save which even works against weapons which ignore invulnerable saves...:wtf:

But we should wait patiently I recon. We don't even know how exactly the high elves rule turns out, let alone any possible dark elf rule. And just accept the fact that dark elves will be screwed against HE until they receive an update. :p

Master Vampire
16-08-2007, 10:32
Im hoping for strikes first as an elf rule,so all elves get it.
Failing that,armour piercing for all DE weaponry.

So why then did the Wood Elves not get it?

It's no option that Dark Elves won't get the same rule. They are different armies and function differently. If there would be a rule coming up like this, it would be dull fight against High Elves.

This is goes to the exception of Undead... they aren't exactly clones. Though, you could take those battles (VC vs TK) as a 'last man standing' fight... I mean... no one will run (except for the odd Ghouls).

All in all there are some people who make this sound like it's a whine about an army rule that hasn't been published yet.

Sir_Turalyon
16-08-2007, 11:14
There is no need for DE to get anything just because High Elves got strike first... they may not strike first becase they are elves, but because their units are trained to act in superb coordinaion (like in opening of first LORT movie). Dark Elves are warriors, High Elves are soldiers - it makes a huge difference.

Scythe
16-08-2007, 12:03
Dark Elves are warriors, High Elves are soldiers - it makes a huge difference.

Not really. High elf spearmen and archers are drawn from the general population, just like dark elf warriors are. They are certainly not soldiers 24/7; just normal civilians. The difference between high and dark elfs is that as dark elf society is centered around war and conflict a lot more, dark elves are supposed to be better trained for conflict. Which is why I always have found it strange that high elves get special rules setting them apart (above) from dark elves. After all, in the background dark elves were often outnumbered by their cousins, something that is not really reflected on the battlefield.

ChrisAsmadi
16-08-2007, 12:36
Except when becoming Dark Elves they forgot to fight in three ranks with spears and how to cast 6 of the eight lores of magic. :p

EDIT: and High Magic too come to think of it.

Elven Quickness is a physical trait - so all elves get it.

Magical Lores and Fighting Styles are cultural, so would differ between the different varieties of elves.

Three Headed Monkey
16-08-2007, 12:47
Elven Quickness is a physical trait - so all elves get it.

That is what the initiative value is for. The strike first rule would represent some special training. We will have to wait and see GWs background justification for it before we go claiming that all elves should get it too.


Magical Lores and Fighting Styles are cultural, so would differ between the different varieties of elves.

Now you've just contradicted yourself. The first strike rule (or whatever it turns out to be) will probably be the representation of a fighting style.

Spearmen may be drawn from the civilian population, but when you are as long lived as an elf, you may be part of an enlisted militia far longer than any human career soldier is alive. Meaning that any training they get will likely, over the years, be far superior to that of a humans. And as the DE and HE probably go through their training differently, the HE getting strike first does not mean that the DE have to get it too.

Although I do agree that over all, a DE army should be better (or at least more brutal) in hand-to-hand than the High Elves. Im saying that all DE units need to be better that all HE units, but that they should get some harder hitting options that the HE.

sulla
16-08-2007, 20:44
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what DE get as long as they get something, which combined with their points cost makes all DE viable choices on the battlefield vs most armies. Be it greater access to poison or armour piercing to help crack the armour and high toughness we struggle against, or something completely different or perhaps something much more detailed, like actually looking at each and every unit and giving them what they need instead of some army-wide rule, it matters not.

What we do know is that DE combat infantry will be virtually unplayable vs HE due to being slautered before they get to strike. Big deal. Our infantry are poor vs every other army out there, why should they be any better vs HE than vs the rest. I say good on the HE for getting viable infantry. I'm sure DE will get the same eventually and Druchii players will start bringing theirs in numbers again then.

Fluff arguments are ultimately pointless IMO because the games creators can rewrite the fluff to suit the armylist anytime they wish... plus there is an abundance of bad fluff to justify any army being based around demigods who can smite enemies with their superior skills and tactics. We can't base armies on-table performance on their background stories, but rather on balanced characterful gaming. Each army really should bring something different to the tabletop so hopefully, when DE are rewritten, they won't just be an evil cut&paste of the HE.

chivalrous
16-08-2007, 21:38
What we do know is that DE combat infantry will be virtually unplayable vs HE due to being slautered before they get to strike.

No, 'we' suspect that "DE combat infantry will be virtually unplayable vs HE due to being slautered [sic] before they get to strike." based on rumours and scaremongering.
If it turns out that the [less discussed if not outright ignored] rumour that the rule is simply always strikes in initiative order, then the balance between High and Dark Elves will remain, excepting that High Elf units may get a boost in other areas.

Sir_Turalyon
16-08-2007, 21:45
Not really. High elf spearmen and archers are drawn from the general population, just like dark elf warriors are. They are certainly not soldiers 24/7; just normal civilians.


But they are trained as soldiers, not warriors. Warrior trains his fighting skills, soldiers train working as part of a team. Warrior easily kills soldier in duel, or in chaotic brawl, but unit of soldiers easily defeats band of warriors on batlefield.

HE are more ordered then WE and DE and less selfish then DE (not to mention they can and do trust each other), so it would not be surprising if their units ended up better organized and geting best from elven reflexes; same reason as why loyalist marines in 40k get combat squads and ATSKNF rules. Dark Elves could train their warriors to same level as High Elves, just like Chaos Marines could follow doctrines from Codex:Astrates... but they never would, 'couse such thoughtful and precise warfare is not macho enough for them.

sulla
17-08-2007, 08:03
No, 'we' suspect that "DE combat infantry will be virtually unplayable vs HE due to being slautered [sic] before they get to strike." based on rumours and scaremongering.
If it turns out that the [less discussed if not outright ignored] rumour that the rule is simply always strikes in initiative order, then the balance between High and Dark Elves will remain, excepting that High Elf units may get a boost in other areas.

Well if the HE don't get 'strikes first' for their infantry, I struggle to see how they can become a useful choice in any army. Point for point, there's not much infantry they can beat on the tabletop. 'Always strikes in initiative order' will not solve the problems they face because it will require a points increase to pay for this ability vs most opponents charging them but will be of no use vs high initiative enemies like DE making the points difference for very similar models even greater than it is now. In other words, DE infantry will be disproportionately good vs HE infantry (assuming the DE charge)...

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-08-2007, 08:35
Personally I still think that the only thing elf infantry needs is a bit of a point reduction. DE Warriors got it in the DE revision, and if they reduced every other elf infantry unit with 2 points, I'd be quite happy. They don't need fancy special rules to make them expensive. There problem is that you have to few, so have to few combat elements on the table. Making them more elite isn't helping.

Scythe
17-08-2007, 09:25
Well if the HE don't get 'strikes first' for their infantry, I struggle to see how they can become a useful choice in any army. Point for point, there's not much infantry they can beat on the tabletop. 'Always strikes in initiative order' will not solve the problems they face because it will require a points increase to pay for this ability vs most opponents charging them but will be of no use vs high initiative enemies like DE making the points difference for very similar models even greater than it is now. In other words, DE infantry will be disproportionately good vs HE infantry (assuming the DE charge)...

High Elf infantry is already rather solid against dark elf infantry. And remember: the rule still gives an advantage against standard warriors. If troops have equal initiative, a roll of is required to see who strikes first. So high elves will still strike first in 50% of the cases against charging dark elves (assuming line troops vs line troops, or elites vs elites).

Apart from that, there are very few armies who match the elven initiative in the rest of the game.

zak
17-08-2007, 21:15
I think that it's far too early to speculate about DE. I think that there will be atleast 2 armies released prior to them. I have a wishlist, but that is all it is. It's far to soon to have any reasonable rumours about how the DE are being planned.
The HE rule to strike first is a rumour. Not gospel. I agree that if true it will have a large effect upon how I play HE, but I will worry about that when and if it happens!

chivalrous
18-08-2007, 00:53
it will require a points increase to pay for this ability
But will it though?

At the moment, it is considered that High Elf Core troops are over costed (despite the fight in 3 ranks rule for spearmen). They pay 3 points more per spearman than Dark Elves, which includes the points paid for 'fight with an extra rank', and people argue that this is a hefty price to pay and the cost should be reduced. With that in mind, are we necessarily looking at a points increase for spearmen or just an introduction of a new special rule to redress the balance at no extra cost to the troop type? This opinion extends to Archers as well which no-one seems to consider are worth their cost either.
More importantly, if the new rule gets introduced and the points cost per model doesn't change, we're still likely to hear the wails and moans of people whose elves cost too much.

As for other units getting points increases for this rule, do we know which units are actually going to benefit from 'strikes first'? To be honest, apart from Phoenix Guard and White Lions (which seem to be getting other additional rules to improve them anyway and price increases accordingly) I haven't heard considerable complaints about any of the other units.
Silver Helms might get a points increase, but that was on the cards anyway as a general trend for cavalry.




Sorry, just my own attempt at random speculation :D

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
21-08-2007, 11:34
I think strike in initiative order would be a far better rule than strikes first for HE.
because you're are still geting that advantage, and still shows how elves are superior in skill, but without being uber. They can still be challenged by various troops (I think) and the other elves wouldn't get slaughtered by them.
So it's a toned down version that still has the same effect, and might be the solution to the points problem, if they stay the same.

Alathir
21-08-2007, 15:04
Striking in initiative order steal leaves high elves in the dust when they come toe to toe with chaos warriors though... who have initiative 5 for some reason..

Scythe
21-08-2007, 15:36
Striking in initiative order steal leaves high elves in the dust when they come toe to toe with chaos warriors though... who have initiative 5 for some reason..

And we all know how good Chaos Warriors are...

Heck, do people even use Chaos Warriors these days? :p