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netrom83
16-08-2007, 17:14
Hi everyone,

Im going to play a 600p game with high elves against vampire counts on sunday. I've been trying to come up with a decent army list, but im really struggling.

This is what i got so far:

16 spearelves with musician, standard bearer and champion

8 silver helms with shields and heavy armor, and a champion

1 lvl2 mage with seer and jewel of the dusk. High magic lore. (fortune is fickle and fury of khaine)

That equals 579p


My opponents list looks like this:

20 skeletons
19 skeletons

2 lvl 2 necromancers.
One of them is mounted on nightmare, the other joins the 19 skeletons.

Since he has 2 necromancers im afraid he will probably dominate the magic phase.

What do you guys think? Should I reduce the number of silver helms and/or spearelves for another mage? Maybe try some other lores? Or a RBT?

Any inputs are appreciated :)

Master Vampire
16-08-2007, 18:25
Well, I can but say it's an automatic lose for you, probably.

The problem is that he'll be raising about 10 models per turn, if not more. You're lucky he didn't bring 3 Necro's... that's just plain nasty (and dull as well).

The only chance you have it to blast the mounted Necro on turn one and try to kill the other. But if you succeed is another thing.... and then there will already be 2 Skeleton units + any raised models...

With other words, it's a 9.9 out of 10 chance you get massacred.

Next time just fight a Border Patrol fight. Then he can only take one Necromancer or a Vampire Thrall.

Cheers,
-MV

netrom83
16-08-2007, 18:45
Yeah, thats what i feared :(

I guess I could try to fit three lvl2 mages with seer+jewel of dusk and blast that necromancer on turn one, using lore of heavens (forked lightning/uranons thunderbolt). Then just blasting skeletons and dispelling from there on.

Then again, thats 525 points, not much left for core units :p


Well, thanks for the reply :)


Cheers,
Netrom

Master Vampire
16-08-2007, 18:55
Your best bet is to try a combined charge. I believe the Spearmen attack in 3 ranks? that's good, meaning all your men but 1 should be able to attack. Add in some S5 attacks and you might kill and subsequently crumble the first Skeleton unit.

This only works if your enemy has not already raised new Skeletons in the unit. I think you can't auto-kill 30 Skeletons...

Keep the Mage so you can roast the mounted Necromancer.

Though, you can always hope for him to miscast and lose the IoN spell, or lose the model in the process :D

huitzilopochtli
16-08-2007, 20:15
take another mage, even if its only level one, and a dispell scroll. drop the silver helms to 5, (you wont be outnumbering easy and thats all that can get into combat; so just use them to kill of the necro thats keeping the army alive by charging the unit he's in, and targeting him)

netrom83
16-08-2007, 21:48
Thank you both for your replies. I think i will try the charge tactic with 2 mages.

This is my final setup:

15 spearelves w champion, musician, standard bearer.

5 silver helms w shields and heavy armor

1 lvl 2 mage w seer, jewel of dusk, and fire lore. (fireball and fiery blast)

1 lvl 1 mage w dispel scroll, and fire lore. (fireball)


Total: 600p ;)


If i manage to get in range with the mages on turn one, I hope their power will blast that mounted necromancer back to wherever he came from. :D

Would you guys go with lore of fire, or lore of heavens when it comes to the damage dealing in this case? or another lore perhaps?


Thanks,
Netrom

melgorth
16-08-2007, 22:17
I would actualy go with the lore of light against the undead because its spells cause alot more damage on them. If not that i would say the lore of heavens because the high damage spells dont have a range and all you need is line of sight.:)

huitzilopochtli
16-08-2007, 22:37
can you give the silver helms a standard bearer?

and can you equip a warbanner anywhere? winning on combat res is essential for the undead. you might not have the points, but its a good idea if you can tweak it.

melgorth
16-08-2007, 23:00
On the other hand though, after looking at his list, even with those lores it will be extremly hard to beat him because he will almost certainly take the black peripet and the book of arkhan with him if he is aiming to go magic heavy and possibly a power familiar. With those he can raise new units and charge them into your units from any sides as long as he has range all in the magic phase and have enough dice left to use his offensive spells against you.
Its a nasty list that i have tried out before (only once and never again, i assure you:)).

Empyrium
17-08-2007, 06:38
If thats the case, it might be better to not try to challenge him in magic directly. You said that you had a RBT, maybe you should drop the lvl 1 mage and add that in instead. It would have the same purpose; to snipe off the necro on horse and then whittle down the other skeleton units. The major difference is that the RBT will be more reliable as most mages have a horribly hard time dispelling arrows. For the lvl 2 mage you already have, instead of seer and the jewel of dusk, consider dropping him to lvl 1 and giving him the annulian crystal and channeller honour. For a lore, just pick one that has a magic missile as its first spell... I know its sort of random, but if you don't like the spell you roll, then you can jump back to that first magic missile spell. The idea here is simple though; your opponent will be relying on magic to help his troops a lot more then you will be to help yours. So although you aren't fielding the sort of magic that can wipe out armies, you will be generating/stealing as many if not more dispel dice as he has power dice after the first necro dies. Also, this gives you some more points to play around with then your previous set up.
Lets see... ending notes: I might drop the musician from the units... against undead, there isn't much difference between a drawn combat and beating them by one. As for rallying, with an RBT, you're prolly going to be pretty close to your table edge already, having range on them and all. Enough so that if you flee, you'll prolly with be caught and destroyed, or run of the table and fall off the edge of the world. Thats just me though... put the RBT on a hill if you can, combine your charges, and all that other basic HE stuff, and you should be on much more even ground with that VC player now.

netrom83
17-08-2007, 06:54
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys. Alot of good advice! I will set up a new list during the day and post it. :)


Cheers,
Netrom

King Thurgun
17-08-2007, 14:18
This is the perfect situation in which to use Drain Magic. If he wants to get his higher level spells off, aka the dangerous ones, like 7+ Invocation and Venhel's Danse Macbre, he's going to need to roll lots of dice. Drain magic even one of those necromancers a turn and you have a huge advantage. You might even want to swap out the silver helms for a small unit of swordmasters with the Banner of Hoeth to really max out your magic potential (though that may give you more power dice than you can use). Throw in a small, minimized SH unit to get your second core choice and use it to hunt down the necromancers/flank with your Swordmasters. Also, a dispel scroll instead of jewel of the dusk will really ruin his day.

huitzilopochtli
17-08-2007, 19:52
forgot drain magic! must remember that the next time i field the slann! ;)

melgorth
17-08-2007, 23:14
Oh yea the slann gets that as well. Stupid slann.....;) To use drain magic effectivly though you would almost certainly have to have two mages in the army. I would also keep a musician in all your units because you would rather draw against them than lose by 1 and atuomaticaly flee if they outnumber you.;) That banner sounds useful too but your main aim should be to just cut off his magic as much as possible until you reach his lines or kill his necros.:D

Empyrium
18-08-2007, 05:17
Ahh... good point, I forgot that they might take musicians too... forget what I said about not taking them. As for Slann, this doesn't work on everybody, but putting a prince with a null stone in a unit of SH will, if properly supported, turn that slann into the biggest point sink you'll ever see in any game. Its not easy to do, granted, but its definitely worth the look on the Liszardmen player's face.
Back on topic, if this game were larger, say around 1000 points or so, then I would agree with Thurgun's strategy, just use a couple of mages to put drain magic on his necros and watch him squirm. The problem is in a game with so few points, you don't have the points to spare on such luxuries. You can't get rid of the SH outright because you need two core units, and taking off their upgraded armor is usually a bad idea. Also, spending so many points to make sure that your mage can reliably cast drain magic on one necro could very well mean that he doesn't need that one's raise spell to vastly outnumber you anymore. What I'm trying to say is that when it comes down to it, it just doesn't seem worth it to try to out magic that VC player in a low point game.

netrom83
18-08-2007, 09:32
Lots of good ideas here.

Ive come up with two new possible lists based on your advice:


List 1:

15 spearelves
standard bearer


5 silver helms
shields
heavy armor


1 Mage, lvl 2
annulian crystal


1 Mage, lvl 1
annulian crystal


total: 597p

Both mages will use Lore of light, and burning gaze. Burning gaze is str 6 against undead! (can models be instant killed in WFB? :confused:)



List 2:

15 spearelves
standard bearer
champion
musician


5 silver helms
shields
heavy armor
musician


1 Mage
lvl 2
annulian crystal
channeler
lore of light


1 RBT


Total: 598p

melgorth
18-08-2007, 18:52
Yea both lists don't seem to be too bad:). Just out of curiosity what does annulian crystal do and can it be taken twice in an army? To answer your question yes they can be killed instantly because high strenght attacks easily nullify bad armour saves like the skeletons have. Any hits and wounds from that spell wont allow them an armour save. Believe me i know!!!

netrom83
19-08-2007, 02:21
Ok, cool. Annulian crystal can be taken twice in an army, and the effects per crystal are: remove one power dice from opponents pool, and add it to your own dispel dice pool. :D

In other words, without any upgrades, those necromancers will only be able to use 2 power dice each every magic phase, and I will have 6 dispel dice.

CHOOBER SNIPES
19-08-2007, 03:37
sorry to say, that's not true. one crystal only, cant take two. also, what do you want the silver helms for? hitting power? cus if hes just got skellies and magic, you can advance out of sight with 2 units of naked silverhelms, instead of one armoured one. still got a 4+ save, which wont change against his units, but now you've got 10 str5 attacks and 10 str 3 instead of 5 and 5. big difference. if you drop the lvl.2 to level 1 and remove the illegal crystal from one mage, as well as the hvy. armor and shields from the silver helms, you can have a whole other unit of silver helms, but you still have 5 dispel dice and he has one less power dice. if you dont have the models, just take two bases or borrow them to represent the 2 extra guys. also, in a game that small, you can tell your opponent before hand that there's 5 in each unit. i know it goes against your feelings, but same (legal) magical defense, more offensive punch and more maneuverability. if you engage him from the front with spearelves (they fight in 2 ranks when charging, so its not that bad) and flank both sides with SH you will really take a toll on him. you want the combat over or close enough to it that it wont matter if you have a 4+ or a 2+, as he wont be attackin back

Bugtor
19-08-2007, 03:43
A great eagle would do wonders for hunting down the mounted necro.

netrom83
19-08-2007, 10:21
Oops, my bad. Didnt read the rules regarding magic items in the main rulebook :o

Ok, i dont have the models to set up another SH unit, and we have a "house rule; only painted models may play". I don't have the great eagle either. Thanks for the advice anyway. I could try to implement the other unit of SH next time we are playing. Should have been painted by then :)

I will compose a final list, and then give you guys a report of how things went :)

Cheers,
Netrom

netrom83
21-08-2007, 16:06
Ok, here is the list I used:

15 spearelves
standard bearer

5 silver helms
shields
heavy armor

1 Mage
lvl 2
annulian crystal
lore of light: burning gaze

1 Mage
lvl 1
2 dispel scrolls
lore of light: burning gaze


Unfortunately, I lost the game. My opponent managed to split my SH and spearelves into two separate fights (mostly because of the terrain that made it impossible to move around). Then my silver helms broke, becasue the skeletons outnumbered. i rolled three 1's :mad: when rolling for flee and purse, and he rolled 5 or something, ergo: destroying my SH.

From there on, my spearelves did a good job, being supported by my mages. Unfortunately, my opponent rolled a invocation of nehek with irrestible force, and then summoned 10 zombies in front of my mages.


I feel I could have done better when it comes to tactics in this game, but it was my first WFB game, so I guess i still got a lot to learn.

Anyway, it was fun to play :D


Cheers,
-Netrom.