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Harry
17-08-2007, 10:57
So here is the challenge.

Pick a GW sculpt you don't much like and have a go yourself.

This is the thread to sign people up and bash out the details. Once sorted I will start a new thread for people to start to post there efforts.

Please note this is NOT a Gary Morley bashing thread. In fact it is the opposite. This is to encourage folks to have a go at sculpting and see just how difficult it is and just how talented sculptors are. (and to have a bit of fun doing it. :D)

Heres how it all got started:

Drewcifer said:


Okay, just because I am apparently in a fighting mood.

I think it's a really important distinction that many people today lack the ability to make: just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it necessarily SUCKS. I can completely see how the new HE stuff wouldn't always hit a home run in the eyes of all who see it. And I personally am not a fan of the Alith Anar model, as I pictured something more sinister and subdued rather than what Gary Morley (a more talented sculptor than 98.5% or the population here, including myself) gave us. But hey, that's what happens in stuff like this.

I'll just skip out on picking up Alith when he comes out, and use the Limited Ed. High Elf hero that came out a while back to convert my own. No biggie. An interweb temper tantrum will not solve anything; it adds nothing positive and prompts well meaning idiots like me to write long and involved responses to said temper tantrums.

I'm not saying you have to like the models. It's not about what you say, it's HOW you say it. Instead of "IT SUCKS OMFG GARY MORELY IS SATAN AND I HATEZ0rs GW". Try, "You know what, I'm not a fan. But hey, that chariot is rock solid." Or "Hey, I'm not too keen of any of it really, but that saves me money in the long run!"

But seriously guys, knock it off. Before you say it sucks, I'd like to see everyone who just personally insulted someone who is no doubt a stand up guy (Mr. Morley) and a great sculptor, do better. Until you can show me a better Alith Anar model hand sculpted by all you nay-sayers, I have this to say to you: shut up.

So ExquisiteEvil said:

Morley is a stand up guy - ive met him on 8 occassions now at GDays and I have told him to his face he needs to step up his game. he blames GW for some of his bigger atrocities - however GW cannot seriously go and TELL him to make a lifeless out of proportion model all the time, especially with the frequency he puts them out at....

To be fair on him, its partly GWs fault in a way for letting his monstrosities past quality control.

As for the comment - 'make your own. Well thats what GW PAY him to do. Do you think you would see MAN UTD buying someone who couldnt play football?No.

Anyway - I will step up to your challenge. I have no formal training and I have never scuplted a full piece - yet I will make an Alith Anar model that puts that tranvestite pile of crap to shame, I will post it on here and I shall make the lot of you eat your words and prove once and for all that Morleys sculpts are a joke and indeed I CAN do better.

Game on peeps, Game on....

So I said:


Outstanding.
Exquisite, I have always liked your posts but I think I am starting to love you. I like a man ready to stand by his words.
I look forward to seeing your Alith enormously. You've got skills and I am sure it will be a great result. In fact I am tempted to have a go myself just to see how difficult it is.

In fact I have a better idea.

Lets do it.

Lets all have a go.
Lets all 'put up or shut up'.
Lets have a sculpting competitition.
Lets have everyone who has ever slagged off Gary Morley (Thats well over a hundred people!) Give it a bash.
It will only cost a few pounds in Greenstuff. (Ģ7 on ebay will buy you enough to make 10 Alith Anars).
Everyone involved will gain a new respect for what the sculptors do ... whether they give up or pull off something better than Gary Morley's.
I'll even put up a prize for the best Alith. (Although if the winner is any good I imagine he/she will be able to flog quite a few given the number of folks who seem disappointed with Gary's work).

Come on it will be great fun just to have a laugh at some of the results

What say you? Who's in?

and:



Just for the record. I have never had a problem with folks not liking a sculpt. (theres some I don't like). I don't even have a problem with people coming here and saying they don't like a sculpt. (freedom of speach) My problem is when people come in and slag off a sculptor personally as 'talentless' or some other derogatory statement OR when they making sweeping statements which slag off his/her entire body of work. Which in somecases spans over 20 years and includes countless sculpts (which range from good to bad to indifferent to downright brilliant). I also don't think its fair to slag something off with a one line 'it stinks' comment when it represents weeks or months of work and would encourage people to expalin why they don't like a sculpt.


"The Morley Challenge" (Thanks Dr.D) is just a bit of fun. Not to try and prove a point or stop people having a go at sculpts they don't like. Although I think it would make people appreciate the skill involved. Having struggled through my first fumbling attempts at Green stuff work. (see my log) I imagine my own effort will look more like morph than an elf. :D But 'twill be fun having a go.

Lets bash out a few details. I think The Morley Challenge should be a resculpt of a Morley mini. But I suppose we could open it up to any mini you don't much like. As long as you can show a before and after photo where you show the mini you didn't like and your effort that works for me.

On what time scale should we do this?
6 months? Or by the end of the year (just over 4 months)?

DarthSte
17-08-2007, 11:08
Sounds like fun. I don't think I have slagged off Gary Morley, but I have commented that I haven't liked several miniatures made by a variety of people, I may just have to see whether I could do anything like a good model...

Be prepared to see some terrible failures by amateurs like myself!

Harry
17-08-2007, 11:10
Thats the fun part. :D

The Sculpters: (@Gaelion. You are not allowed to join in! :D)

ExquisiteEvil
Harry
Dr. Death
Ludaman
Arhalien
The Emporer Sucks
DarthSte
Luke
Hastings
Firestorm Falcon
Occo
MIGHTYpanhead
Lavieth
JonnyTHM
Binabik
Aelyn
DeadOrc
Rabidbunny666
Nexus
Discover&See

Luke
17-08-2007, 11:11
Possibly something by Trish Morrison's hand. All I need as a sculpting tool is a spoon slightly smaller than hers.

I think I may take a bash at this. I'll have to go and see what I can grustle up. Maybe lemartes.

Harry
17-08-2007, 11:21
LOL hastings is that you using a different user name? :D

I'll add you to the list.

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 11:22
Hey, I never said I would do it! :D

Firstly, I have no scultping tools.
Secondly, I have no green stuff and no idea how much I would need
Thirdly, how much will those things cost for a sily thing like this
Fourthly, maybe I should stop finding problems and start solving them :D

Harry
17-08-2007, 11:29
I knew you wouldn't want to miss out on the fun and seeing as its going to take you a month to settle on which sculpt to do I thought I would get you down early. :D

A sculpting tool is not a requirement for entry. I shall be using a craft knife and a tooth pick and some harsh language.:D
Green stuff will cost you about Ģ7 for a huge roll on e-bay. (enough for a dozen sculpts and all you gap filling needs for a year. You may be able to buy smaller quantities). Don't know how much GW stuff is.

Luke
17-08-2007, 11:50
Wait, are we sculpting entirely from scratch?

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 12:02
LOL hastings is that you using a different user name? :D

I'll add you to the list.

LOL, I may try and sculpt a Halflings face using an ironing board, it's a technique I picked up from trish! :D

I'll have a crack at this if I get time between all my other projects, I don't think I could sculpt a worse yhetee than Trish did, so I'mm up for it too.

1 x Yhetee better than Trish's coming up (when I get chance)

Tools I will be using are Green Stuff, Pro Create, a 12 lb Lump hammer, the stock of a fishing rod, and a second hand car (again all techniques picked up from Trish) :D:D

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 12:04
Apparently so :eek:

Fifthly: I;ve never used Green Stuff before in my life
Sixthly: As a result of this I have roughly the sculpting ability of a dead slug, as I've already said
Seventhly: How long is this going to take? I'm back at school in a few weeks and I very much doubt I'll have time for this :)
Eighthly (I can go on all day if necessary :p): Harry, next time you start something like this please give me several weeks notice so I can leave the country before I convince myself to sign up :D

@Hastings: and I thought trying to find some old Play-Doh tools in the garage was being a bit desperate!

Luke
17-08-2007, 12:07
1 x Yhetee better than Trish's coming up (when I get chance)


Damnit yes! Sorry to nick your idea old bean but I really fancy sculpting a yhetee! It will give me something to do I guess. Between work and boys anyway :p

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 12:08
Hey, I never said I would do it! :D

Firstly, I have no scultping tools.
....

Neither does Trish, obviously !!! :D

(this thread is making me laugh)

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 12:11
Hmm, ok, if I do do this, I may try doing a Swordmaster; nice and small :D

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 12:11
Apparently so :eek:
....
Sixthly: As a result of this I have roughly the sculpting ability of a dead slug, as I've already said


Again, like Trish.


It will give me something to do I guess. Between work and boys anyway

:confused:

Luke
17-08-2007, 12:15
Is a tricky one I know hun but the clues are all there ;)

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 12:22
There is probably a huge influx of people checking out your user profile right now Luke, I wonder how different our yhetees will look?

BTW I don't think I need anymore clues ;)

Firestorm Falcon
17-08-2007, 12:22
As anyone who's seen my starwars log will no I can't sculpt, at all. But This could be a good way of learning, sign me up, oh yeah I need to insult morely to enter don't I.

"he's bum! :)" there we go.

Luke
17-08-2007, 12:24
:D My yhetee....I dunno. I know little of them except that they are a type of ogre. Pretty cold, very angry. Use ice weapons right?

But I think a good musculature is important, even though hairy I still think they should appear heavy set.

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 12:24
Don;t worry Firestorm; you can't be any worse than me :D

Luke
17-08-2007, 12:25
I'll make a start when I get back in from work tonight (22:30 -ish) so get that thread up quick!

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 12:27
I may start off by redoing the snail from the bretonnian sprue ;)

OnnO
17-08-2007, 12:32
Hmmm, sounds like a perfect way to make an utter fool of my self...
And since I've been bashing the Dark Eldar models since the moment they came out.... I guess I'll have to put money and mouth together.... (and swallow quite some words probably:) )

Sounds like I'm in (if you'll have me ;) )
I'll let you guys know what model I'll do specifically later:)

What are the rules?
Scratch build?
Plasticard and the like allowed?
How about weapons, can we use of the sprues or should those be handmade too?

This is going to be a laugh, I'm sure :)

Luke
17-08-2007, 12:42
Lol, I got all sorts of cool ideas in my head, I'm thinking Rackham formors here and the like, but when I am finished it will probably just look like a slop of green mess on a base. :D

Nah, I'm going to really try and do this thing.

DarthSte
17-08-2007, 13:12
I may start off by redoing the snail from the bretonnian sprue ;)

Damn, I wish I had thought of that, it is about the only thing that I could do justice too.. Maybe I'll make the tree stump with the axe in it..?

I'll have to have a look at Gary Morley's back catalogue, I realise it wasn't explicit in "The Rules" but for "The Morley Challenge" I think attempting to redo a Morley sculpt would be the most appropriate...

Hmm.. Think I may just try to get a couple of other to sign up for this...

"Kriegschimtd! Morninglightmountain! Assemble!!!"

JonnyTHM
17-08-2007, 13:28
Okay, why is the world so cruel that a thread as funny as this may only reach 10 pages, while the dreaded terrible to read High Elf rumour threads might stretch in the hundreds (multiple times).

I know the limits of my sculpting talent... if I only have 4 or 6 months, I'm not going to be able to compete with morley on this one... unless someone knows a model without a head? I can sculpt alot of things, but so far, faces have eluded me.

That, and I've never had a problem with any of his sculpts.

Okay, time for me to stop rambling...

Hastings, Harry, Luke... make this thread grow to 100 pages! Keep me laughing!

P.S. I think there should be a rule that anyone who officially signs up and doesn't post their result (even if it is an ugly pile of greenstuff with a toothpick that they forgot was sticking out of it while sculpting), is officially and forever shamed, and unless they put a signature saying "I wussed out of the Morley challenge, and therefore I praise his work above all others" that it's everyone else's responsibility to reply to their posts with the same.

Huw_Dawson
17-08-2007, 13:32
Dammit Harry! Can you not go 2 weeks without starting a new challenge?! First two painting ones, and now a sculpting one!

Safe to say I'm out of this, mostly due to the fact that there are no GW models I actually dislike, although it's really because I haven't the guts to make myself look foolish in both painting and sculpting at the same time :eek:...

- Huw

Harry
17-08-2007, 13:36
You pussy.:D

I pretty sure you will be amongst good company on the 'making yourself look foolish' front.

I am pretty sure thats what I'll be doing.:D

To the others with a set of stones (No offence Luke) I will add your names to the list.

Hastings. I knew you couldn't resist. I can't believe you bagged the Yeti when you know its my least favorite sculpt!
Firestorm Falcon. Nice insult. That will cut Gary to the core! :D Welcome on board.
Onno Welcome. 'If we'll have you' ??? Anyone ready to make an utter fool of themselves has come to the right place.
No rules at the moment. (thats what this thread is about).

JohhnyTHM The idea is not to actually 'compete with Morley'. Its just to give sculpting a crack. Think of this as the sculpting version of the TOP thread. It is to encourage folks to have a go at sculpting. Shall I sign you up? :D

DarthSte
17-08-2007, 13:38
I think there should be a rule that anyone who officially signs up and doesn't post their result (even if it is an ugly pile of greenstuff with a toothpick that they forgot was sticking out of it while sculpting), is officially and forever shamed, and unless they put a signature saying "I wussed out of the Morley challenge, and therefore I praise his work above all others".

I think that's fair. Even as I said - I've never had a particular problem with Morley.

To be honest I struggle sticking Forge World models together sometimes. So I imagine my entry will just be a humanoid thing.

I have it! I am going to make a Clay Golem! I'm sure that citadel had one in their catalogue years ago. I will make a Clay Golem that looks more like it is made from clay than that one. Easy! :D

Harry
17-08-2007, 13:52
LOL The idea is not to find the easiest model to make!

MIGHTYPanhead
17-08-2007, 14:04
And I just bought a huge roll of GS too! (must be a sign)

I'll need to find something I don't like, but I'm so in :)

Kriegschmidt
17-08-2007, 14:05
I am not signing up! Humbug. I'm too exhausted from scratch-building my Chaos Warhound (started with a Transformer :D). When I've finished that I'm going to cut off my hands and put them in a stasis field, then mumble to everyone about them having been stabbed by Fulgrim or something.

Lavieth
17-08-2007, 14:05
Harry add me in! I will give my best shot at sculpting a dark elf sorceress.

This is going to be just as fun as the painting challenge!

Dr Death
17-08-2007, 14:16
Just to add a couple of rules, i think that the model being resculpted should be a current one (so no delving back into the archives of awfulness). I'm also inclined to say that each entry may utilise a single bodypart or piece of detailing from a pre-existing model (since GW sculpters are known to cannibalise old models).

That aside it might be worth writing up a list of noteworthy models for people to choose from. I'm not exactly up on Morley's back catalogue but here are a few well suspects from his LotR selection-

Elladan and Elrohir
Glorfindel (on Foot and Mounted)
Orc Trackers
Imrahil (Foot or Mounted)
The Swan Knights of Dol Amroth
Halbarad Dunadan
The Rangers of the North

There's a veritable treasure-trove of dodgy Morley sculpts so list any you know and it'll give people an instant resource instead of having to trawl through old issues of WD. I'm not sure which i myself want to try yet so it serves a very immediate practical purpose:).

Dr Death

Harry
17-08-2007, 14:19
But if you don't allow old models we won't get any Nagash re-sculpts. Now that would be a shame!:D

I think cannibalising is OK. Certainly I think it would be OK to use a weapon for example. But I don't think we should start with an existing mini. That would be converting not sculpting from scratch. I don't think I want to get into specifics of 'only one body part' or 'only weapons', etc. If folks want to use the odd bit ... thats OK

I have opened it up a bit to be any sculpt. Not just one of Gary's. There are lots fans of Trishes work too.

Please don't anybody list Gary's sculpts.
Lets not turn this thread into a place to winge and list all you least favorite sculpts.
Theres enough of that around the rest of the forum.

Firestorm Falcon
17-08-2007, 14:37
I believe morely had a part in the creation of the current HE archers (correct me if i'm wrong) so I will be making one of those.

Oh and you should have called the thread "put your Morely where your mouth is" :).

Discover&See
17-08-2007, 14:41
hmm this sounds fun can i join in? by any chance :) would also help along side with GD entries to get them done :P if possible :p

Best regards
Discover&see.

Dr Death
17-08-2007, 14:45
Nagash is arguably 'current' seeing as he's never been replaced, but none the less, i think that we should try to stick to X sculpter's more recent pieces to get a true gauge of their hideousness. For example- Krell has never been replaced and so is technically 'current' but none the less represents the sculptor's (i'm not sure who actually did Krell) talent some 10-15 years ago rather than now, loosing it's pertience. It's comparable to boasting that you're Golden Demon standard but failing to mention that standard is circa 1990.

Dr Death

McMullet
17-08-2007, 14:45
Oh and you should have called the thread "put your Morely where your mouth is" :).

That's just dirty.

This is a cool idea, sadly there aren't really any models I hate enough to want to join in... :p

Harry
17-08-2007, 14:51
Sam that is such a lame excuse. Thats not the point and you know it. :D

Dr death. I get you point. and its a good one. So if we said any model that needs to be re-sculpted. that would do the trick.
(at least that way Nagash is still allowed).

Oh, and I am pretty sure that krell was Gary Morley too. But I will check. (Might have been Aly).

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 14:58
We can use one ready made piece? Good; that's the sword for the model sorted with one bitz order for Eltharions' weapon straight away :)

I still can't believe I've signed up for this!

de Selby
17-08-2007, 15:06
Interesting idea. I know perfectly well that I can't scratch sculpt anything as good as even my least favourite sculptors, which is why I (and my wallet) only ever compare their work with that of other professional sculptors.

But I'll be interested to see the results here :D

75hastings69
17-08-2007, 15:07
Hmm, one piece from an existing model, guess I'll take the piece of wood off the shaft of the Yhetees weapon, to be honest it's the only part of the mini that I like! ;) (I was going to get all smart and incorporate one toenail or something :D)

Sadly this means I will need to purchase said bit from the online store as I don't own any Yhetees, not a single one! I have practically every GW mini on the planet except Trish's sculpts, if someone gave me a Yhetee I would be offended, and now I'm having to buy part of one :wtf:

"put your Morley where your mouth is" I LOVE IT!!

@ Harry, how strange that there are 3 of us already in this thread for the Yhetee, must be trying to tell us something about the mini........ but what....? (maybe that the mini is absolute DOG TOFFEE!!!!)

@ Harry (again), Oh yeah, by the way stop it with all these crazy ideas and projects! I have enough on as it is and now I've signed myself up to scratch build a fu*king Yhetee! Just leave me alone ;)

JonnyTHM
17-08-2007, 15:12
Though I fear I'm going to just cause myself humiliation...

I officially throw my hat in the ring to sculpt something.

I need a little help though in deciding what to sculpt, options include:

Bretonnian knight on foot
A model for an "embalmed one"

anything else someone can suggest that would be entertaining.

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 15:18
Right, I've found some green stuff on Ebay; $13 for 36 inches.
Shipping costs to UK, $10 :skull: :rolleyes:

Would a single pack of GW greenstuff be enough?

MIGHTYPanhead
17-08-2007, 15:26
So if we said any model that needs to be re-sculpted. that would do the trick.
(at least that way Nagash is still allowed).


Question: what models need re-sculpting? :p

Aside from the ones that are mentioned every other day (yhetee's.. etc) I mean.

Would it be any "newest" model of that type? 'cause I'd really l ike to do the callidus (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301677&orignav=300913&ParentID=5975&GameNav=10), but that's only because I don't like it much. (and would give a neat challenge)

Harry
17-08-2007, 15:36
The only question is what do YOU think needs resculpting.
If YOU don't like the callidus much then thats the one to have a crack at.

@Arhalien
It would be enough but you can get it cheaper I am sure it is available in the UK I paid Ģ7.99 for 36 inches.
(keep your smut to yourselves):D

It called kneadalite or kneadite or something like that. (Someone help)
Its the same stuff.

@JonnyTHM
Excellent. Hope it was nothing I said that changed you mind.
I don't know what to suggest modelwise. Whatever mini moves you .... to tears. :D

@Hastings
Sorry mate. I Can't help myself.
But this is partially your fault.....remember your answer to my rhetorical question "What's next?" Your answer ... "sculpting"

...and its not compulsory to use a part. The tree trunk is the easiest bit whats the point buying that in?

"DOG TOFFEE" I bet you woudn't use those words in front of Trish at Gamesday. :D I could introduce you if you like. "Trish, this is my good friend hastings".... "yes, that hastings, the one who calls your work DOG TOFFEE all over the interwebz".

Binabik15
17-08-2007, 15:42
Sign me up.

I dunno what Iīll do, maybe Alith Anar, maybe a manticore, maybe a squig (a BIG one)...I have to think about it.

Or a boar that actually resembles a boar? Something GW has yet to produce...

Aelyn
17-08-2007, 16:10
I'm in. I've been looking for an excuse to try my hand at sculpting properly (anyone who's seen my Squig and the robes on my Company Master know I need the practice!)

Let's see now... I think I'll redo the Lizardmen Salamander. I was never a fan of the old massive-fan one, but I still preferred it to the modern anorexic one. So I'll make a new one all my own.

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 16:17
@Harry. I'll see if they have a website; that was the stuff on Ebay.

Dead orc
17-08-2007, 16:52
Oooh Aelyn! I was just about to say i'd do the salamander(Horrible model but i was three for my lizard man army).... I've been working on one (yeah.... got LOADS done) and it currently fits all of the rules.....

I'm in, before i get a chance to change my mind sign me up. I'll finish the Salamander and maybe a Terradon, they are equally as horrible although i've no idea who sculpted either.

Anyway! Sign me up. In the 6 months (or so) i'll try and sculpt as many of the models I hate. (I have never sculpted anything full before and i am not very good at all... this will be fun)

Arhalien
17-08-2007, 17:18
Success comrades! :D
Kneadite (Green & Brown stuff) & Pro Create --- Black Cat Bases (http://blackcatbases.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=115&P_ID=541)

It seems that you can get 36 inches for Ģ8, 12 inches for Ģ4, and 6 for Ģ2.
Anyone know how much you get in a GW pack?

Dead orc
17-08-2007, 17:50
I think the GW pack is 2 x 6". Although I may be wrong.

I have just trawled through the online store, compiled a list of models that I don't like. And then made a new list of the ones which i have good idea's for.
That list is 17 miniatures long. So i will not get all of them done.

Zodiac
17-08-2007, 17:54
Harry, I never actually said I wanted to join, just that it would be fun!
And as far as I know, I never slagged off any Morley stuff..

Rabid Bunny 666
17-08-2007, 18:26
Will there be deadlines for this? Because if its a bit lax on updating regularly, i'd be willing to throw my lot in.

DarthSte
17-08-2007, 19:32
Krell was a Morley sculpt - according to my big Citadel Catalogue 2000...
I will have a go at him. Unless it is against the ever evolving rules?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-08-2007, 20:42
Don't know if I'll be contributing but consider me subscribed, I want to see where this is going.

Nexus
17-08-2007, 21:29
I wouldn't mind having go at this. There are a few howlers in the GW range, from quite a few different members of the studio. If the specialist games ranges are included, well, even more, particularly the more recent releases.

Not sure what I'd like to do, though.

The beasts of chaos are mostly erm...bestial, but the idea doesn't grab me. That, and I've none of the (admittedly, nice) plastics to ensure consistent scale. Some of the less attractive power armoured miniatures stand out, but sculpting more marine stuff atm doesn't sound fun.

Ho hum.

OnnO
17-08-2007, 21:30
Harry, I never actually said I wanted to join, just that it would be fun!

Well, isn't that enough reason? :)
Don't worry about the end-product, it could never be worse than mine.
This thing will be my first "ahem" serious sculpting attempt.... so :rolleyes:

Crube
17-08-2007, 21:36
Loving the idea of this, although time constraints (and a distinct lack of talent) dictate I wont be joining in this time round.

Good luck to you all, I look forward to reading your exploits.

Can I suggest, for ease of the viewing public, a spearate thread for WIPs and then for finished sculpts, (with requests for no one else to post in them).

Should make it easier to see who's done what...

Freenut
17-08-2007, 21:45
Not about to sign up for this but everyone please post frequent update. I am very curious to see how this goes. Surprised no one has come with this before.

Oh and do those of us in the peanut gallery get to bash the results, so everyone can feel what it is like to be a GW sculptor. ;)

Harry
17-08-2007, 22:05
Well theres something to look forward to. :D

The ever evolving rules as they stand.

Any current GW mini from any sculptor. (Any mini that has not been re-sculpted but should have been in your opinion).
From scratch. but may use the odd salvaged/cannibalised part. (E.g. a weapon) But must be 80-90% scratch built.
May use plasticard as required.
May use any sculpting tool. (spoon, toothpick, lollipopstick, ironing board, surf board, etc....)
No deadlines but everyone tries to posts once a month with an update however little they have got done however sh!te there efforts.
You must try and make some progress each month. (so you have something new to show).
First post will be the end of September.
No one is allowed to say anything complimentary about anyones sculpting however good it is.:D

Thats where I see it at the moment.
Any ideas for futher rules please post.
Do people think I should tighten up more. (It is difficult to run this like the TOP thread, you can't set a points requirement for each month).

Luke
17-08-2007, 22:29
Right, I drew up some sketches of the beast but I don't have a scanner *doh* so I'll take some photographs of my sketch tomorow sometime.

Also I'm off now to order some milliput or similar for the armature.

Nexus
17-08-2007, 22:31
It's possible that if you wanted to have a more regimented control over progress, you could set targets for general stages (so armature, bulking, etc) or maybe parts (say, the head), or a combination of the two. The former would work initially, but would get a bit hazy as different people work in different ways. The latter is quite useful as parts (or the whole) approach completion.

Harry
17-08-2007, 22:37
How about if I set % complete.

Month one (Sep): 25% Month two (Oct): 50% Month three (Nov): 75% Month four (Dec): completed.

It allows a bit of flexibility but keeps folks on target for a finish at the ned of the year.

Luke
17-08-2007, 22:38
Hmmm, but ultimately it could slow the project down. I say we set a deadline and just keep updated.


edit--


oops, sorry Harry that was directed at nexus :p

Harry
17-08-2007, 22:49
My worry was it would slow people down. Its not like painting an army where some structure helps keep you on track.

You could sit down and do it in one session. How you going to show that over four months?

You might sculpt half a dozen things and improve with each one in that time.

I think it might be best to encourage as many people to join in as possible to leave this one more flexible. So people can do there own thing. Just as long as you post something each month. If that's a finished sculpt, great it will encourage the rest of us. If its only a work in progress thats also fine as long as it is roughly on track for completion in four months.

We should all end up with one or more finished sculpts by the end of december for the final slagging off. I mean judging. :D

I have not welcomed all the new arrivals but you are all most welcome.
This thread has been open 12 hours and alreday we have a remarkable 20 soon to be sculptors keen to show themselves up in public. This could be as big as the tale of painters. Come and Join in the fun.

Two weeks until kick off (1st september) so sort your self out with green stuff, brown stuff, white stuff, any sort of stuff you like and a suitable tool and be ready. You can do all the sketches you like. You can even practice. But no starting your actual sculpt until the September 1st. (so we all start together) Working thread will start then for WIP and chat. First update post September 31st.

Nexus
17-08-2007, 22:57
I meant it more of a kind of deadline, rather than a point to reach and stop at. I don't think I could stretch making an armature over a month, but someone else might not have the time to do it at once, or whatever.

Personally, I don't think I'd be able to stick to a perentage based progress system, mostly because I don't know what percentage I'm up to until I'm done :P

I think I'm going to plump for one of the new high elf characters, since they started this stir. Although alith seems to attract the most anger, I can't really think of much to do with him because I don't know very much about the shadowlands and shadow warriors in general. So Korhil I think it is. Just look at that chin!

Harry
17-08-2007, 23:06
Or "Brucey" as we like to call him. :D

He has made many a enemy tremble with his war cry "Nice to see you..to see you...Nice"

violenceha
17-08-2007, 23:08
I wouldn't mind signing up for this though I'm currently working seven days a week and not sure if I'll have the time. Been meaning to have a go at doing a decent Nagash for years.

Rabid Bunny 666
17-08-2007, 23:35
Hmm, any GW mini eh?

*ponders*

Nexus
18-08-2007, 01:29
Did a quick practice elf face. I think he looks alright, but most importantly, his chin isn't massive! No eyes yet, and I'm trying to get my head around why GW's sculptors make the brown quite so rediculous.

Anyway, you can see it here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nexus17/elfface.jpg).

schoolcormorant
18-08-2007, 02:23
Is a tricky one I know hun but the clues are all there ;)


There is probably a huge influx of people checking out your user profile right now Luke, I wonder how different our yhetees will look?

BTW I don't think I need anymore clues ;)
not so much clues as a proposition:p

i've been watching this thread all day, and ypeople have angered me over GW sculpts...think i'll go and kill a baby with a hammer to asuage my anger.

looking forward to some pics. i'd get in on this myself but i am to sculpting as traffic is to the autistic.

SC

theunwantedbeing
18-08-2007, 02:59
I'll take part,dont know what I'll be trying to sculpt but I have time to decide....a good month or 3 at least,it wont start looking like what I want it to untill its past 75% done :P

Luke
18-08-2007, 09:01
not so much clues as a proposition:p


Cheeky pup! :p



OK so Nexus, thats really good stuff! Can't wait to see more. Already looks better than anything by McVey, Morley and Trish put together.

Here is my rough sketch of what I want to make. I decided in order to make my images easier to find in-thread, I will border them with glorious Magenta :p

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/nsrdude/My%20models/yhetteeplan.jpg

DarthSte
18-08-2007, 09:13
Well, isn't that enough reason? :)
Don't worry about the end-product, it could never be worse than mine.
This thing will be my first "ahem" serious sculpting attempt.... so :rolleyes:

Likewise other than a few nurglesque icons and a mushroom for one of my Rhinos, I haven't sculpted anything from scratch since 2nd year art classes - 16 years ago.


Loving the idea of this, although time constraints (and a distinct lack of talent) dictate I wont be joining in this time round.

I really don't think the lack of talent is going to be an issue... It sounds like quite a few people (and I include myself in this) have stepped up to the line, with no idea of how to create a scratch built miniature, so I think this is going to be both fun and funny, but probably not particularly a showcase of the creme de la creme of budding new sculpters...

An end of December deadline sounds fine. I won't have learnt how to sculpt by then, but at least I will be ready for my humiliation when it comes. I think at least 1 update a month, and 25%, 50%, 75%& 100% completion for the end of the next 4 months sounds reasonable...

Off to eBay now, for ridiculously large amounts of Green Stuff...

DarthSte
18-08-2007, 09:16
Luke - as a rough 2 dimensional sketch, it already would be more welcome on my gaming table than the real thing... Looks good.

Harry
18-08-2007, 09:19
Already looks better than anything by McVey, Morley and Trish put together.

I would just like to remind everybody that amusing one liners involving spoons, ironing boards and other household appliances etc. are one thing but this is NOT a sculptor bashing thread and needless slagging off the GW sculptors is not what this is about. In fact the opposite is true. It is to gain a greater understanding of how difficult sculpting is and how talented these guys/gals are.

For example Trish was responsible for the unreleased Azhag Wyvern.
That is quite simply one of the best fantasy monsters I have seen from anyone. Ever. It is unfair and untrue to say that face looks better than anything by Trish.

Mike Mkvey sculpted the swooping Hawks just about the only models to not be redone for the new Eldar they were one of the few things that 'made the grade' and did not get redone. It is unfair and untrue to say that face is better than anything by McVey.

Equally Gary Morley Sculpted many of the 5th edition High Elves which have not been redone becaus ethey would be hard to improve upon. It is unfair and untrue to say that face is better than anything by Morley.

It is this sort of sweeping, derogatory statement that writes of a sculptors entire body of work (which in some cases spans over 20 years) that started this ball rolling.

I will not be putting up with it and I will be picking people up on it.

(@Luke sorry to pick on you to make my point. You involvement in the project is most welcome).

BTW That is a great face and already better than anything I can do. Well done.

Luke
18-08-2007, 09:24
Harry, may I helpfully remind you that my comment was not a bash, it was my opinion on the quality of Nexus' sculpt.

A bash would be to say that oe of the sculptors in question is a hammer handed hack.

Luke
18-08-2007, 09:25
Luke - as a rough 2 dimensional sketch, it already would be more welcome on my gaming table than the real thing... Looks good.

Heh, thanks ;) Doesn't take much to beat those current yhetees though!

silverstu
18-08-2007, 09:27
Harry -on the rampage again? You seem to be Warseers very own MR Motivator! Hmm all very tempting- mainly for the fun of having a crack at scratch building a model not out of venom for any particular sculptor. Might have a go at the nid biovore- the whole range of nid stuff is ace[just wish more of it was in the form of excellent plastic kits..] but the biovore is a bit limp. Big beasties are a bit of a cop out though- I suppose the thing i really didn't like was the old striking scorpions by gary- but i appreciate that i could not do better.hmm i'll have a think but excellent idea for a project none the less.

edit- just to add gary's waywatchers are excellent as are many other sculpts he's produced- it's actually quite apt that he is the title for this sculpting thread as he oversaw the training of new sculptors at GW. Oh and Mike Mcvey's swooping hawks are absolutely fantastic.

Harry
18-08-2007, 09:39
Harry, may I helpfully remind you that my comment was not a bash, it was my opinion on the quality of Nexus' sculpt.

A bash would be to say that oe of the sculptors in question is a hammer handed hack.

Luke, may I helpfully remind you that whilst those Yhetees suck so hard it makes my eyes water, Trish is an incredible talent with a huge body of work behind her spanning over 20 years.

It is possible to make comments on the work of others without getting personal or discounting the entire contribution that three talented people have made to our hobby over their long careers.

It has been made clear to me that if that is the direction this thread goes it will be closed. (Not by me ... by the Inquisition).
... and then the fun stops for everyone.

Sorry to come down hard, you were just the first person to cross the line.

Luke
18-08-2007, 10:10
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think this project is not something I now want to be a part of. Sorry Harry.


Latz.

silverstu
18-08-2007, 10:12
yeah i think people should see this as an opportunity to find out how hard sculpting is and get better at it[with a bit of luck]. There is a lot of potential on Warseer- if we get imput from likes of Galleon, Moloch and Navarro to name a few we could all learn a lot. In addition to getting the slagging of our lives from the masses..:p
What could be more fun??
Oh and what about asking Galleon to give a final Critique?[or maybe Morely himself?] Would be fitting that the scupltors that have to put up with our comments get the chance to get thier own back..?

75hastings69
18-08-2007, 10:26
Whilst I agree that this thread shouldn't turn into a slagging off of some sculptors (other than as a bit of fun and a chance to use a few one liners to spread humour to the masses) I don't think that a doctor that saved one patient in twenty years or a mechanic that fixed one car in twenty years would be heralded as being successful, likewise with sculptors/esses just because one or two minis over the length of their careers have been ok. If a chef knocked up one decent meal in 20 years he would be sacked and replaced....

I think I am out too.

I'll go back to concentrating on the TOFP (plus as a bonus I still get to say I have never bought any part of a Yhetee from GW! ;) )

Arhalien
18-08-2007, 11:25
No one is allowed to say anything complimentary about anyones sculpting however good it is.:D


I like it :D



Two weeks until kick off (1st september) so sort your self out with green stuff, brown stuff, white stuff, any sort of stuff you like...

Blu-Tac? :D

Taarnak
18-08-2007, 16:01
Hey, I think I may participate here too.

I just need to find a sculpt that I want to redo.

Out of curiosity, are there any pictures of the mini that started all of this? The High Elf character? I couldn't find it anywhere...

~Eric

Nexus
18-08-2007, 16:27
The minis are the ones in the Fantasy Sneak Peeks (http://us.games-workshop.com/news/sneakpeek/Warhammer/default.htm). The thread that precipitated this one is here (http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-news-rumour-discussion/98466-new-high-elves-preview.html), along with a lot of ongoing criticism for a few sculptors on the citadel design team over a period of time.

Easy E
18-08-2007, 18:40
This should be good for a laugh.

For some good tutorials and tips in the printed word, take a look at the thread called Easy E learns to Sculpt. The Link is in my sig. There is a library of links about scultping in it.

Just don't sculpt like that talentless idiot savant, Easy E.

Rabid Bunny 666
18-08-2007, 18:58
Right then, narrowed down my choices a bit, and i do know that some may not be Morley sculpts;;

Throt (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060206068&orignav=13)
Sorceress on Cold one (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060212051&orignav=13)
Battle Pilgrim (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060203095&orignav=13) (i'll only do one)
Biovore (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110106055&orignav=10)

Fideru
18-08-2007, 22:40
BEST. THREAD. IDEA. EVER. (Literally, I'm not joking.)

I can't wait until the sculpt pictures start flooding in.

Harry
19-08-2007, 08:26
I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think this project is not something I now want to be a part of. Sorry Harry.


Latz.

I am really sorry you feel that way.
Please don't drop out you were so enthused by the project.
I feel you will 'bring a lot to the party' both in terms of your sculpting and your humour.

Please reconsider. PM sent.



yeah i think people should see this as an opportunity to find out how hard sculpting is and get better at it[with a bit of luck]. There is a lot of potential on Warseer- if we get imput from likes of Galleon, Moloch and Navarro to name a few we could all learn a lot. In addition to getting the slagging of our lives from the masses..:p
What could be more fun??
Oh and what about asking Galleon to give a final Critique?[or maybe Morely himself?] Would be fitting that the scupltors that have to put up with our comments get the chance to get thier own back..?

Thats a good idea. I will contact Felix and ask him if he would like to look in on us and pass a professional eye over our efforts.

I will contact Gary but I am not sure he spends time on the interwebz.


Whilst I agree that this thread shouldn't turn into a slagging off of some sculptors (other than as a bit of fun and a chance to use a few one liners to spread humour to the masses) I don't think that a doctor that saved one patient in twenty years or a mechanic that fixed one car in twenty years would be heralded as being successful, likewise with sculptors/esses just because one or two minis over the length of their careers have been ok. If a chef knocked up one decent meal in 20 years he would be sacked and replaced....

I think I am out too.

I'll go back to concentrating on the TOFP (plus as a bonus I still get to say I have never bought any part of a Yhetee from GW! ;) )

Normally at this point I would list everything I could remember Trish had done over the last twenty years to demonstrate how many successes Trish has had. But I want to draw a line under this as it has caused upset enough already.

I hope you too will reconsider.

I know the TOP is a big commitment for you with four armies.

I guess other people will have commitments too.
If this was more open ended without the need for monthly posts would that be easier for everyone?


This should be good for a laugh.

For some good tutorials and tips in the printed word, take a look at the thread called Easy E learns to Sculpt. The Link is in my sig. There is a library of links about scultping in it.

Just don't sculpt like that talentless idiot savant, Easy E.
LOL thats a great thread. Full of useful information. But your right. That guy can't sculpt for toffee. :D


BEST. THREAD. IDEA. EVER. (Literally, I'm not joking.)

I can't wait until the sculpt pictures start flooding in.

Thanks I hope it will be a lot of fun for the viewers at home.
Shall I sign you up? :D

Arhalien
19-08-2007, 10:21
Harry. Sorry to give up on this so quickly but I really don;t think I'll have time for this.
I'm joining the sixth form in September which will mean a great increase in my workload from school, and I have my ToP army to do, with a HE re-release coming as well.
I'll still be watching this and ridiculing people's efforts (especially your's and Firestorms :p), but I won;t be able to take part.

Sorry :(

Luke
19-08-2007, 10:32
Harry, I think what you need to do is start again. Make this purely a sculting challenge. As it is your original paramters were to create a sculpt better than a notoriously naff scultpor, of course light hearted quips were expected but the line between light hearted joking and slanderous insult is a fine one when it comes to art.

I would absolutely love to continue this project but not under the constant shadow of offending some of the more sensitive types here.

Dr Death
19-08-2007, 11:54
It's not a case of offending the more "sensitive types", it's a matter of just keeping this in the bounds of civil and reasonable coment and critique. Your comment was a compliment to Nexus but it was also very barbed in discounting (as Harry points out) the entire workload of three very talented people (albeit people who do occassionally raise the ratio of GW failures:successes).

If certain individuals feel they cannot differenciate between a peice of work and the artist then frankly (and i apologise for being so brutal here) they're no loss. This competition is about remedying specific cock-ups rather than having an excuse to badmouth those cock-ups' sculptors. By all means criticise the work, even brutally but realise they are only solitary cases.

Frankly i find it rather depressing that we're already having a mass hissy fit and walk out when there's so much potential in this venture and i hope it wont (though i fear it will) cast a shadow on the entire thing.

I myself am brimming with enthusiasm for this and i bloody well hope everyone else is to- i'd hate for a little stubborness to destroy the fun of this. So for god's sake lighten up, stop making a protest out of a slap on the wrist and let's get sculpting!

Dr Death

Harry
19-08-2007, 11:57
I am too sensitive.
Others will back me up on this.
I get into it regularly in defence of sculptors, artists and writers all over the forum. There was myscrap with thegameis afoot over Aly Morrison and a great three page defence of John Blanche in the Vampire Counts rumour thread when someone made the mistake of discounting his complete body of work. :D

I have no problem at all with 'light hearted quips' Or indeed full on slagging off of individual sculpts (when people explain what they don't like and don't just say 'it stinks!').

It is only the sweeping generalisation I really wish to avoid.

Can we make a deal?
If everyone tries to avoid those and I will try to be a lot less sensitive.

Now lets have no more posts on this topic. It is blown out of proportion enough. (Mostly by me. sorry all)
It was only a small slip. No harm done.

Then we can all get back to the fun.:D

KnightofUltramar
19-08-2007, 14:21
Hey guys, I'd like to join. Just started sculpting an Fantasy Orc a few days ago, so I'll try to make something nice out of it. My Sculpting skills aren't that good but you have to start somewhere, right?

KoU

OnnO
19-08-2007, 14:56
The choice has been made: out of all the options the Dark Eldar range has I have decided on doing a Hellion.
(Mainly because a mate of mine keeps telling me it's a great sculpt and I try to explain to him he has to have his eyes checked :) )

Tomorrow I'll start ordering (insert color)-stuff.

Well I'm of to read the tutorial link from Easy E, so I at least have a shimmer of a notion of what I'm doing.

Nexus
19-08-2007, 17:21
I've been doing some sketches and whatnot, which I'll post later.

While I was doing my research, I came across the issue of WD where the original Korhil was released, along with the ellyrian reavers command. Nice little minis, sculpted by Mr. Morley. The old standard and musician were better than the current incarnation (aside from a bit of a sword wavy arm), but still, all very nice miniatures.

Some of the stinkers are due to poor work before the sculpting even begins. I'd say a recent example of this is the latest biovore. Some good ideas, but conceptually not very nice overall.

Dr Death
19-08-2007, 18:41
I've finally sat down and had a bit of a think about which model to redo and so i now present to all you lucky souls my short list/hit list with a bit of an explaination. Opinions or requests are more than welcome as well as any defences you care to put foward. So without further ado-

Ludwig Schwarzhelm (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110202209&orignav=13)- I really can find precious little to reccomend this model; the horse looks daft, the releif detail is all angular and Ludwig himself looks (as someone on this very site once put it) "Josef Bugman on a horse". I should point out that i would also put foward Kurt Helborg for similar reasons had not i already started my resculpt for him (i'm not that far in but i feel like a fresh model for this project).

Gotrek and Felix (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=COMP0214001&orignav=13)- I dont think i've ever seen a model(s) that quite hit the marker with this renowned pair. This current incarnation (putting aside the collector's models and Gotrek as a shield bearer though they also fail to grab me) is a pretty poor take on them with stilted poses and a beard on Gotrek that even after 6 odd years since it first appeared, i still cant quite fathom.

The Fay Enchantress (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110203097&orignav=13) Dissapointing to say the least. The lack of dynamicism is staggering and that's before you get onto the quality of the sculpt. The Unicorn looks like it's had a very, very heavy night which is presumably why Morgana is charging her glass for some unknown occassion. I have to say, of all the models in this list this is the one i least want to do, the direness of it just saps you of all hope that things could ever get better- truly the "black dog" of miniatures.

Elladan and Elrohir (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99061463018&orignav=16)- The Monkey Twins! Not so much a resculpt as an exercise in natural selection. Over on thelastalliance.com Gary Morley himself recognised that they do look disturbingly like the king of the swingers. They were partly remedied by the armoured versions released with RoA but frankly even they dont quite pass the test for me.

Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99061464058&orignav=16)- This i suppose is not just a resculpt of Imrahil but symbolically of the entire 'genre' of Skoda models (we should probably have realised they were going to be crap when they're abbreviated to a low quality car manufacturer). From dodgy helmets to ball gowns, everything needs changing about these models. Daddy Skoda is the subject though and so i hope to bring new light on the noble lord of Dol Amroth (if i pick him).

And finally a choice from 40k-

Chaplain Cassius (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99060101302&orignav=10)- Perhaps Tigurius is the bigger crime against the faculty of sight but he isnt half as interesting. Cassius is a fine show of a comparitively recent arrival to the scene of dreadfulness, Mark Harrison, and shows clearly how when it comes to power armour, only Jes Goodwin suffices. So just to hang myself by my own self-assured statement i put foward Cassius as a potential for this project.

I should at this point put a disclaimer of gross hypocracy and comedy exaggeration (rather like many of those models:angel:) of what i have said above. They are but a small example of the many, many models their sculpters have done, both good and bad and i in no way wish to generalise any of these god's of the art's work as being universally dire or indeed universally fantastic (except Jes Goodwin who is veritably divinely inspired). The purpose of my scorn is here presented merely for the sake of humour and enthusiasm.

So, cast your votes!

Dr Death

silverstu
19-08-2007, 19:35
I think I'll definately have crack at the biovore- why limit myself to merely painting tyranids badly when I can sculpt them badly too??
[plus it might help me start to customise some other nids ..]

Nexus
19-08-2007, 19:41
Dave Thomas sculpted Cassius, didn't he? And Mark Harrison sculpted Shrike and Tigurius? I think MH is another hit and miss sculptor, while dave thomas and martin footit are pretty decent across their range. Maybe it's the price paid for 'promoting' from the EM team?

I don't understand why they replaced the Fay; I quite liked the old one.

Firestorm Falcon
19-08-2007, 21:55
Wow I go away for a weekend and everything gets all serious :(.

Anyway I've done some concepts for my archers which I'll photograph tommorow and put up here.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-08-2007, 22:31
Had a brainwave when i was doing my Slaanesh Sorcerer, i'm gonna be making the Slaanesh Lord.

Catferret
20-08-2007, 03:21
Can't believe I missed this! Warseer has been playing up something chronic recently so I haven't been looking at much beyond my subscribed threads.

I have half a mind to sign up for this. My sculpting needs a lot of work and I've been meaning to give scratch building a try.

Am I too late? Dunno what I'd wanna make though.

Wayfarer
20-08-2007, 06:43
I can't ever think of a time when I trashed on a sculptor, but I've always wanted to sculpt something completely from scratch so I'm joining in on this too if I can. (Even if I can't I've already begun work on a mini so it'll be posted somewhere if not in this thread.)

It's going to be a high elf lord or something like that. I'm not too concerned with it fitting into a specific GW role.

DarthSte
20-08-2007, 09:29
Right I have a shortlist of 2 models to re-make.
Krell - an old Morley classic. 5th edition or maybe (4th?) Hasn't been redone. As far as I know he isn't in the current codex, but his rules were updated for 7th edition (it may have been very late 6th) in an issue of WD a few months ago. It isn't a poor models by the standards of the day, but I think a fresher more dynamic model, more in scale with current skeletons would be good.
OR
Ragnar Blackmane. 2nd Edition 40K (Or was he just at the very absolute end of the Rogue Trader Period?) I remember when the Space Wolves range came out back then, I was very impressed with both Ragnar Njal Stormcaller and Ulric the Slayer, But he simply doesn't fit in an army with Logan Grimnar or that really very attractive Runepriest that came out with the Eye of Terror stuff. My main problem with him is just how static he is. Surely as a young impetuous Space Wolf commander - he needs to be charging. Madly...

Decisions, decisions...

Dr Death
20-08-2007, 10:04
Dave Thomas sculpted Cassius, didn't he? And Mark Harrison sculpted Shrike and Tigurius? I think MH is another hit and miss sculptor, while dave thomas and martin footit are pretty decent across their range. Maybe it's the price paid for 'promoting' from the EM team?

Oh yes, you're quite right, it is a Dave Thomas, my mistake. Dave Thomas does occassionally come up trumps and a lot of his models have promise (Kurt Helborg, abysmal in execution as it is, is a pretty good update). I think this is my problem with his work- they're always nearly hits but are ruined by there being just enough problems that you cant reasonably convert them. Helbrect is a classic example- he looks rock hard and is in a classic pose but the extraneous 'bling' the rediculous cloak and the detailing that blurs the 'silhouette' of the model completely ruins it.

(I did go on to write a critique of the work of Mark Harrison but to keep this thread clean i thought i better send it to you by PM- better safe than sorry.)

Dr Death

Easy E
20-08-2007, 11:52
For those aspiring sculptors out there I have composed a small list of helpful links

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1listSculpti...1385&finish=sub (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/1listSculpting/join?yguid=301761385&finish=sub)

http://www.satyrsculptingstudio.com/pages/...ing-article.htm (http://www.satyrsculptingstudio.com/pages/sculpting-article.htm)

http://www.prophetminis.com/tutorials.html

http://groups.msn.com/SculptingMiniatures/howtosculpt.msnw

http://www.lyonstudio.com/equipment.html

I hope this helps.

OnnO
20-08-2007, 12:55
Although I don't consider myself an aspiring sculptor (more a babboon with sculpy-clay :) ) I'm very appreciative for the links. Thank you kind sir E :)

(Green and brown blob that I call) Hellion here I come......

Codsticker
20-08-2007, 16:55
I find the shortage of pix in this thread disturbing....

Crube
20-08-2007, 17:09
Give people chance mr Codsticker, i seem to remember a deadline of 6 months being set, or somesuch.

Some people have to learn to sculpt first :D

Firestorm Falcon
20-08-2007, 17:16
I find the shortage of pix in this thread disturbing....

Well I'll soon change that. Here's some concepts for my archer, they're a bit rough but you get the idea.
I just realised the unarmoured one looks like robin hood. :)
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p180/cry-of-the-wind/DSCF0008.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p180/cry-of-the-wind/DSCF0007.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p180/cry-of-the-wind/DSCF0006.jpg

Nexus
20-08-2007, 17:41
I find the shortage of pix in this thread disturbing....

We're not meant to start until September.

Saying that, I'm posting a quick doodle which will (hopefully) help me decide how I want to pose Korhil mk.III. I've got a leaning at the moment, but we'll see what everyone else thinks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v12/nexus17/sketch-2.jpg

The one on the left is in a classic axe-wielder pose, leaping and whatnot. The second is leaping, but with the axe held in a more horizontal aspect. The third has the axe held in the same way, but with a more braced pose. Any other ideas would be appreciated, since these three might not be to everyone's tastes (i.e. something to leap off) or could be inconvenient for ranking up.

FF: What's this nonsense about silver helm and bolt thrower heads? :p

Firestorm Falcon
20-08-2007, 18:20
Nexus: As far as the pose goes (poetic powers of doom!) I like the braced pose but the leaping ones are more elfy, with the brace looking a little dwarfish.

The stuff about the heads is because, I know I won't be able to do a face, so I'm going to steal one as my kanibalished piece. (is that cheating?)

The Super Haggis
20-08-2007, 18:26
Oi, how come no-one's told me about this?(apart from me not being on Warseer for about a week!:p)

Anywho, I'd love to sign up, though I'll probably get bored if I do one sculpt over four months, so I might do one every month to make it interesting(or possibly impossible!)

Not sure what to yet, could do a Dragon over four months actually! Or maybe a demon, hmmmmm........

What do you guys think? (Give me sometihng to sculpt as i can't be bothered thinking of something myself!;))

Cheers,

Nick.

P.S. Perhaps it would be a good idea to leave the sculptors out of it and concentrate on the model, as it is irrelevant who has done the sculpt, but rather that it is of poor quality, and that you want to do something about it rather than slagging the sculptor off. Besides, we don't go around slagging each other off on this forum as it is against rules so why should we do it to people off the forums?

So shrug off these shackles, raise your sculpting tools in the air, and start the revolution!.....................................or something like that.........................maybe.:D

silverstu
20-08-2007, 19:55
Heres a quick sketch of my biovore- based on Roberto's orginal sketches as seen on Hivefleet moloch. i like the armoured head, three toed rear feet for stability, long tail and big gun.

75hastings69
20-08-2007, 20:00
@ Silverstu, if the mini looks anything like your concept sketch it will be great. Really looking forward to seeing your progress.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-08-2007, 21:51
There are only two models I'd like to sculpt, whether I'll get round to it or not is another thing entirely so if any body else like The Super Haggis is stuck for ideas feel free to steal 'em.

Marauders- more Norse less S&M, you can extensively convert the originals but a marauder lord would be cool.

Cold Ones- Never was too keen on the old metal ones and I'm not keen on either of the plastic varieties so an alternative drawing on gamezone's beautiful models with a possible eye to using them for exodite eldar would be my second choice.

DarthSte
21-08-2007, 13:16
Well my foot long piece of green stuff has arrived, so I'm going to have to make a decision and start doing some planning...
Hopefully will have some preliminary design photos up here at some point over the next 7 days.
Wish my luck. I will certainly be needing it!

Catferret
21-08-2007, 13:28
Gazak: I think you are on to something with the Norse style Marauders. I converted a few for Mordheim to look Norsey, I guess the next step is sculpting one from scratch.

*yoink* Consider the idea stolen! ;)

JonnyTHM
21-08-2007, 15:57
I am now ashamed of all of my concept sketches....

Looks like I'm working in the 'artistic talent deficit' category.

DarthSte
21-08-2007, 16:48
Lol. I'm 28, I wonder if they'll let me enter into the under 11's age group, as that is probably the standard of my work...

Nexus
21-08-2007, 17:29
This waiting is a killer :eek:

Nyarlathotep
21-08-2007, 17:44
Im looking forward to seeing the results of this thread, well done Harry!

It always gets on my nerves when people criticize the GW sculptors. I dont think many people know or appreciate how hard it is. I have been sculpting for about 3 years now and have had tuition from Mark Harrison personally (any one who says he cant sculpt... I dont have words to describe how moronic the statement is). Yes, they may have bad days when they make something which isn't up to their usual standard, but hey, that's life.
I agree that some models may lack something but every sculpt is always crisp and clean which, Im sure the participants will soon find out is the hardest part of sculpting.

Binabik15
21-08-2007, 18:46
Yes, but if something "isnīt up to their standards" they should scrap it and start again. Of course I realise that this means either more work for the sculptor if heīs paid only for finished, usable greens that got through the (nonexistant?) quality control or higher costs for GW if they pay them for workhours. But it would pay of with more sales, wouldnīt it?

I have no idea how much GWīs sculptors are paid, but I doubt itīs much. I read on the site of a very talented sculptor about how most sculptors end up working for toy companies because the money is, according to him, MUCH better. This simply canīt be it if GW wants to survive, I mean come on, those minis ar what they want to sell, after all. People not liking minis should only be because of personal prefereces, i.e. "I hate Orcs!", not becaue the minis have undeniable flaws and lack coherence.

But to get back to topic, Iīm torn between Scyla, Dechala, Krell or my favourite, Arbaal the undefeated. He contains both the static-ness of past chaos warriors AND a silly looking, weedy bloodhound in an akward pose. Even though, his bloodhound is still 1000000 times (at least!) better than the current bloodhamsters.

See, all models that IMO are/were at least decent when they were released but simply not up to date any more. So Iīm NOT bashing any sculptors work.
Because if I did, Iīd have to sculpt every Trish model and prove that Chaos Ogres made from cement could look better than their current incarnation...But I didnīt bash those, so Iīm fine :D

Okay, since it isnīt September yet and Harry doesnīt allow us to start yet :cries: I would like to get some input abut Arbaal because heīs to most likely candidate so far. But since I got into this "GW hobby" (...) kinda late in 5th edition I have neither the Chaos box set nor the Champions of Chaos suplement and therefore donīt know much about him. I know this so far:

-Heīs wielding the title "Destroyer of Khorne", branding him as his most trusted follower, right? Or is it his weapon?

-his demonic mount is a gargantuan bloodhound, even cooler, KHORNE`s own bloodhound...even though the model is the same underfed dino-dog as the rest of the bloodhounds from that edition. I mean have there EVER been decent models for bloodhounds?!

-Heīs a chaos warrior of Khorne, so axe:check, fur:check, helmet:check, necklace of Khorne:check???

Help would be very welcome.

Nyarlathotep
21-08-2007, 18:56
Yes, but if something "isnīt up to their standards" they should scrap it and start again. Of course I realise that this means either more work for the sculptor if heīs paid only for finished, usable greens that got through the (nonexistant?) quality control or higher costs for GW if they pay them for workhours. But it would pay of with more sales, wouldnīt it?

I have no idea how much GWīs sculptors are paid, but I doubt itīs much. I read on the site of a very talented sculptor about how most sculptors end up working for toy companies because the money is, according to him, MUCH better. This simply canīt be it if GW wants to survive, I mean come on, those minis ar what they want to sell, after all. People not liking minis should only be because of personal prefereces, i.e. "I hate Orcs!", not becaue the minis have undeniable flaws and lack coherence.


Well, they cant be paid badly. A lot of the sculptors have been there 15-20 or more years...

GW sculptors work to a tight deadline, so re-starting a model is not really a viable option. I know for a fact that some of the sculptors are not happy with some of the models that have been put into production, but it is not their choice as to what is and what isn't.

Nexus
21-08-2007, 19:16
binabik: here you go (http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/special-characters/3/)

I've heard that established gw sculptors get about 30k pa.

Not sure how tight deadlines are, but the number of disappointing miniatures made by some members of the studio is somewhat alarming. They may be well finished, but errors like poor proportion are pretty unforgivable.

Bring on September!

Binabik15
21-08-2007, 19:26
And that is exactly the problem! What would be better in your opinion:

A)The model is brought out no matter what just to meet a deadline. People will moan, groan, not buy, moan more and insult the sculptor.

B)They re-do it, meaning it misses the deadline, is delayed and people will moan. But you admit/announce that it wasnīt up to GWīs and the sculptors high standard and a better model is made. Gw brings out a good model and people will buy.

Of course itīs a business, time is money, money rules the world blabla, but crappy models might not only sell bad, but damage GWīs reputation and make them laughable when they go on about how theyīre the best thing ever and their prices are justified because of quality.

Btw, that the sculptors remain "loyal" could mean that the work atmosphere is good, the sculptors are as dedicated to the "GW hobby" or they simply donīt get other jobs. The īEavy Metal team is also paid badly, isnīt it?

I mean, wouldnīt it be wonderful if suchs whinefests and the regular bashing of sculptors would have no right whatsoever to exist? Yes, it would. But at the moment, both groups, are both right and wrong, i.e. donīt get personal but slap the person responsible (whether itīs the sculptor or his boss...). ;)

Edit: Thanks Nexus, but I found that exact page while google-ing. Hehe, otherwise I wouldnīt even have known the tiny bits I posted...I just wanted to look cool. Only a little bit! But you ruined it and made everyone realise that Iīm only a showoff! You meany! :cries: Ahem...

Harry
21-08-2007, 19:31
Arbaal is the favorite of his master and his most devoted servant.

The Destroyer of khorne is a 'gift' (5th edition) bestowed by Khorne on his most favoured champion. Makes the a tireless warrior, a 'hurricane of fury on the battlefield." (2d6 attacks!!!) Know idea how you represent this?

The hound of Khorne was supposed to be a flesh hound of massive proportions but was as you say not that much bigger than normal ones. It was supposed to be a monster so should be somewhere between a griffon and a dragon in size....and no there have never, ever been remotely decent models for fleshhounds in my opinion. I have 5000 points of khorne and have never been able to bring myself to buy a fleshhound in three generations of them. I ahve everything crossed for new ones released with Codex Daemonica in the not soo distant future.

The hound wears the collar of Khorne giving both hound and Arbaal immune to magic. So there is no need for him to where a necklace but I would think as Khornes Champion he would be iconed up to teh eyeballs and be carrying some sort of back banner or possibly something attatched to his seat could work.

Legend has it he killed a thousand warriors at the siege of Prague so I imagine there will be a few skulls in his pile. :D

I would love to see someone have a crack at Arbaal and the fleshhounds.

Nexus
21-08-2007, 20:07
What do you reckon to the flesh hounds for Warhammer Online?

If I were to rework the hounds of Khorne, I'd have a look at short snouted dog breeds (bull terriers maybem, stuff like that) and similarly built lizards. To sculpt something like that, I'd research some dog or wolf anatomy, work up a skeleton, look for where the muscle groups go then consider where your spikes and whatnot might sensibly come from, if that's your bag.

Edit:

Binabik: Rumbled ;)

Binabik15
21-08-2007, 20:52
Weeeeell, I imagined a mixture of a confrontation tiger of dirz, confro drune hound of scathach and a doberman on roids (I sadly canīt find the picture of "dog on steroids" I saw smoe time ago...). I love those models, even though I hate most confro models :wtf:

I will be at least as big as a griffon.

And this Warhammer Online puppy looks like a mixture of a goat and Spyro the dragon, donīt you think? But they bring back the cockatrice :eek:

WARNING: The following may cause eye cancer, nightmares or you may explode laughing






Nexus: Time for your victory dance?

http://sicktracks.com/galleries/data/500/580damme20dance.jpg

:p

Harry
21-08-2007, 21:09
What do you reckon to the flesh hounds for Warhammer Online?


I like the head but I would like to see it a bit more powerfully built and ... demonic. That one looks a bit too much like an ordinary dog with a few spikes and a demonic head.

Sorry about the wait BTW but I want to give as many people the chance to find this thread and sign up as possible to make it more fun for everyone.

You can always start if you really want to and take WIP shots as you go then post them when I start the new thread.

I have been thinking about your Korhil. All your concepts were in attack mode. I was thinking how cool the Dwarf Lords leaning on thier axes are and wondered if you could do an elf version.

Nexus
21-08-2007, 22:01
Binabik: Why? Just why?

I thought the W:O hounds were an improvement, but not a massive one.

Like you both said, the way for better hounds is clearly making them a lot bigger and bulkier. I think the Rackham minis are alright, but a bit front heavy for my tastes. I reckon it's the more loose, almost cartoony style of their range that puts me off those as they are, the rear ends seeming rather weedy compared to the massive shoulders. The steroid dog look seems pretty much perfect to me, but I think the doberman is a bit skinnier than I'd be looking for, with a narrower and less brutal, stubbed snout.

I might hold my horses, work on some other bits and pieces and let my ideas percolate for another week or so.

As for putting Korhil in a more relaxed, nonchalant pose, I'm not enamoured with the idea. Although I absolutely adore the dwarf lord that Felix sculpted (that one really got me frothing), I think Korhil is a bit more of an 'active' character. I think the dwarfy pose works for a general, but Korhil is the champion of the Phoenix King's bodyguard and so I see him being a bit more active, constantly fighting off potential attackers, y'know?

I think other characters would work like that, maybe a mage or a general on foot. Someone in a more commanding or standoffish role.

I've been looking through some old(ish) WDs and there are tonnes of miniatures that think could do with a makeover. I'll have to be careful I don't turn mental and go overboard!

Gazak Blacktoof
21-08-2007, 23:38
I've always found the static poses a bit odd for wargaming. Nothing wrong with them it just looks odd in a battle.

Sureshot05
22-08-2007, 10:52
You know what, I've generally avoided the ToP challenges as I lacked the time commitment, but the sculpting challenge has grabbed me.

Before I start, I'd like to mention that I have only done some really REALLY minor greenstuff work in the past so it will turn out terribly (but thats half the point). However, I like the spirit of the thread and think that I shall dive in and give it a go.

So who....

Well, there is one model which I can honestly say has always been my standard of a terrible model, and hence I think that I should try to do something about it (even though I don't collect the army it belongs to) just because I should put my "Morely where my mouth is" (though I'd like to point out this isn't one of his sculpts).

Yep, I'll try for the big one...

http://www.codclan.org/junk/nagash3.jpg

This is going to be a unmitigated disaster, but hell, I'd hate to think that I wouldn't rise to the challenge.

Target: Have a new coco the clown by Xmas...

Arhalien
22-08-2007, 10:56
YAY! We have someone doing Coco the Clown :D :D :D ;)

OnnO
22-08-2007, 11:23
YAY, someone taking on Bozo The (sad) Clown!
Love it, whatever you do, it can't get much worse than the original sculpt :)

Edit:Bah, beaten to it by Arhalien... :)

Nexus
22-08-2007, 13:08
Do you have any idea where you're going with Nagash (tempted to make a horrid, horrid profane joke there)? The image of undead has split up and become a bit better defined since he was first brought out, are you going to give him a bit of a Nehekharan flavour? Maybe take some imagery tips from the necrarch vampires? Clean and majestic, a true master of all sorcery, or the image of the lord of the undead?

Sureshot05
22-08-2007, 13:23
Do you have any idea where you're going with Nagash (tempted to make a horrid, horrid profane joke there)? The image of undead has split up and become a bit better defined since he was first brought out, are you going to give him a bit of a Nehekharan flavour? Maybe take some imagery tips from the necrarch vampires? Clean and majestic, a true master of all sorcery, or the image of the lord of the undead?

I've got a very clear image in my mind of how I want Nagash to look, based upon his appearance when he retook his mountain from the Skaven. Its one of those moments in the warhammer world where you get the sense of this terrible power that is on the verge of being unleashed, but is being held back. Its what I want from the mini, a sense of power contained, not power unleashed. It will be closer to the Necrach than clean, but it should be a unique style as he is a unique undead abomination.

Several things have bugged me about the original sculpt (bar some of the obvious points) especially the size which considering Nagash was human, is recincarnated in his sacophagus in the south (which I assume does not grow) and is currently recovering his power, why the hell is 20ft tall? :p

I'll post more on the topic when I actually get some materials together, but it promises to be a very tough challenge as I have done so little sculpting its silly. However, it struck me as a fun idea, as I have said, and will always say that it is the worst model GW ever produced. As this is meant to be for fun, I would love to get the feel right, but lets see what happens. I sense a large green necromantic blob of doom could well be appearing on these forums come christmas

"behold Nagash, the greatest terror in the old world:
a perfect white sphere with a smiley face on it..."

First stop, thin wire for making a frame.

DarthSte
22-08-2007, 13:39
I always thought that the Nagash model looked like it just needed a beard and would make a great 54mm(or larger?) scaled Chaos Dwarf...

Aha. I have green stuff, have floristry wire. All that is missing now is talent.

Dr Death
22-08-2007, 14:00
Very glad to see someone taking on Nagash, and with such a clear image of how he should be. I personally would make him somewhat bigger than humansize, perhaps not bloodthirsteresque 'monsterous' but much like the other great Necromancer: Sauron, still towering over his man-sized minions as a dark shadow of despair.

I think there is perhaps also a supplementary idea going on here of reinventing perfectly good but nonetheless old and outdated miniatures. Models from the 1st-2nd edition 40k and 4th-5th edition warhammer which lack something in the modern time (usually since they're flat 1-piece jobbies). I know it sounds pedantic but being a stickler for format i would be inclined to suggest to Harry making a separate category for these types of entry as opposed to the strict "terrible model resculpts":rolleyes:. It's certainly an itch i've wanted to scratch and i had to really restrain myself from adding any number of old elector count or 'Jes era' marine characters to my shortlist sticking purely to modern paragons of hideousness:p.

That however is just an idea.

Dr Death

By the way, I'd just like to thank (no it isnt the oscars) Binabik and Nexus for their response to Nyarlathotep. I saw his post last night and had a virtual battle of will to stop myself from writing something rather sarcastic and unbecoming about Mark Harrison's ability as a sculptor (nice bloke, shame about tigurius) but i bottled myself up and when i read what they had said this morning i felt my sentiments more politely voiced than i would have by choice;).

matz
22-08-2007, 17:56
i want to join this! will probably do like a deamonhost or maybe i will do a model that dont even exist, Belial deathwing commander. Or maybe i'll do both :D

Binabik15
22-08-2007, 18:49
DrDeath is right, resculpt ***** minis we must.

The "Challenge" might loose the challenge part otherwise ^^.

Iīll settle for one of the most hated minis in general. Okay, now does anyone know how to find one of those "GWīs ugliest mini" threads? Because a quick search didnīt turn anything up. :rolleyes:

But the Strigoi vamp might be a top aspirant though and I might just do one. And if time allows either a hydra, a manticore or a flesh hound as I originally planned.

ExquisiteEvil
23-08-2007, 04:25
Well, they cant be paid badly. A lot of the sculptors have been there 15-20 or more years...


With the single exception of the fantastic Mr.Goodin those desigeners that have been there for 15-20years are generally the less talented individuals that the 'other' companies, simply would not hire.

Felix P for instance got head hunted by privateer, and did a fantastic job bringing their trollbloods to life, and now does the stunning avatars range.

Another fave of mine, chris fitzpatrick, went and started his own company - croc games, who produce some brilliant work.

Now, can anyone truely believe Morley would ever be hunted by anyone based on the tripe he consistently turns out?

If the fellow started his own company like the above 2 I menioned who'd buy his stuff?

The Answer - nobody. The ONLY thing that sells Morleys minis are the rules. If the kiddies want alith anar because he is 'th uberest character' they will buy that monstrosity of a sculpt.

However if he tried peddle that ***** as an 'elven hero' ala Felix - the man would go bankrupt very very soon.

THAT is why some of GW 'artists' have ben on the books so long. Yes the pay may be crap - but thats what you get when your work is also crap.

rant over,

My alith anar btw is already looking better than the afore mentioned monstrosity - and right now its only a wire armature...:D

Harry
23-08-2007, 09:22
This is not what I wanted.

I do not want to provide an excuse for folks to continually put the boot in to individuals and to the GW sculptors on mass in this way.

Thread Closed.

NEW THREAD NOW STARTED ON WHICH YOU CAN START POSTING YOUR WORK.

Thread title : "The Tale of Poor Sculptors" (TOPS)

Lets try and focus on the sculpts on that thread.