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Frodo34x
18-08-2007, 01:47
And I'd like to know what the big fuss is about?

Is it just that the Undivided First Founding legions have been pushed to the sidelight?

The changes have, in my opinion, made Thousand Sons far better. Khorne Bezerkers are perhaps somewhat less powerful, since they have lost their bonus movement and chainaxes, but they have gained furious charge.

Noise Marines don't seem to have changed much. In regards to Plague Marines, would I be right in thinking Bolter, Pistol and CCW is better than having a bolter and true grit?

I like the fact that the Marks of Chaos have been streamlined - the rules for them seem alot simpler, even if this has meant they have lost some rules along the way.

The overhaul of the wargear/ demonic items section is one that I personally am glad of. There never seemed to be much variance with them anyway, as some gifts were far better than others. It also means there is less chance for people intentionally "accidently" giving their Daemon Prince 10pts too many of daemonic gifts.


Overall, I think the new codex does alot of the things the old one didn't, but far more simply.
So, what is it that everyone seems to be whining about?

BrainFireBob
18-08-2007, 01:57
1) Fuss over fans of the Daemons. Despite the forthcoming codex.

2) Fuss because people were minimalists, literalist gamers, and wanted to leave their lists completely unchanged from edition to edition.

3) People whose defining paradigm was the 3.5 codex.

That's what I've gathered.

grickherder
18-08-2007, 05:35
The changes have, in my opinion, made Thousand Sons far better. Khorne Bezerkers are perhaps somewhat less powerful, since they have lost their bonus movement and chainaxes, but they have gained furious charge.

Even better than that, the followers of Khorne have regained their martial pride. They are now willing to pick up heavy weapons or fight in any role. It's a return to the pre-Index Astartes days where Khorne was about martial pride and killing, regardless of whether it is in close combat or at a distance. You can know take khornate havocs!



I like the fact that the Marks of Chaos have been streamlined - the rules for them seem alot simpler, even if this has meant they have lost some rules along the way.

The rules for the marks are much better. They don't pigeon hole your army into a one tactic force.


So, what is it that everyone seems to be whining about?

The thing they many are rightly complaining about is large numbers of models that are invalidated by these new rules, forcing people to either shelf them, break WYSIWYG or reconvert their already painted Noise Marine Havos, Terminators, Cultists, etc.,. GW shouldn't invalidate models it sells. They should always try to figure out a way to make the products they sold work with the rules.


3) People whose defining paradigm was the 3.5 codex.

This is a great point. I'm returning to 40k after having played 2nd edition and some of third and while I sort of paid attention through 3.5, the Index Astartes period and the transition to 4th edition, I'm shocked at how much the 3rd edition codexes have put walls up in peoples minds about what armies are and are not. People are only again beginning to remember that Blood Angels are about honour, art and restraint and are not simply imperial khorne berzerkers. Khorne was about martial pride and all types of warfare, not just close combat. The latest tyranid codex was also a bit of an undoing of the last one. The Hive Mind got some of it's personality back. It's still nothing like the 2nd edition fluff, but it's better than the animalistic unconscious force that the 3rd ed codex gave the impression it was. The DA and BA codexes have also done a good job of undoing the 5-10 min/max squads and reminding people that the Codex Astartes defines squad organizations for compliant chapters. All these paradigms created by the last edition are finally being undone and there appears to be a slight return to the richer, older approach where an army is not simply defined by the ways it ignores the normal rules of the game (special rules).

Cartographer
18-08-2007, 08:24
The thing they many are rightly complaining about is large numbers of models that are invalidated by these new rules, forcing people to either shelf them, break WYSIWYG or reconvert their already painted Noise Marine Havos, Terminators, Cultists, etc.,. GW shouldn't invalidate models it sells. They should always try to figure out a way to make the products they sold work with the rules.

Now I know this is a topic close to many peoples' hearts, but WYSIWYG is NOT a GW rule. It doesn't appear in any Codex or in the BGB. For players like myself who like every last grenade and battle honour to be shown clearly on their models that makes no difference, but there is nothing stopping you using old models with vastly different gear and weapons as just about anything in the army list.

(and just to pour petrol on the fire, there is nothing compelling you to inform your opponent of what the models are armed with either!)

kazkal
18-08-2007, 08:40
My only real knock is nerf on chain axes and soon to be choppas...I liked how they worked and were well suited for orks and khorne.

Reflex
18-08-2007, 08:54
so let me get this straight...

there is no longer strict rules for theming an army.

example.

In 3rd ed codex, if you wanted a pure Tzeentch army, you could not take raptors or bikes IIRC. but now, you can still have a tzeentch army and have these 2 units, although without the tzeentch special rules, but none the less, still include them in your blue, thousand sons, Tzeentch army.

is that right?

Cartographer
18-08-2007, 09:09
so let me get this straight...

there is no longer strict rules for theming an army.

example.

In 3rd ed codex, if you wanted a pure Tzeentch army, you could not take raptors or bikes IIRC. but now, you can still have a tzeentch army and have these 2 units, although without the tzeentch special rules, but none the less, still include them in your blue, thousand sons, Tzeentch army.

is that right?

That's pretty much the gist of it.

The point being, there aren't just Thousand Sons that are dedicated to Tzeench, there are many different warbands who have Tzeench as their patron, and some of those include Assault Marines/Raptors.

Same way you can now have Havocs dedicated to Khorne.

(oh, and they do get the Tzeench/Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle special rules too)

grickherder
18-08-2007, 09:28
Now I know this is a topic close to many peoples' hearts, but WYSIWYG is NOT a GW rule. It doesn't appear in any Codex or in the BGB.

I just realized you are completely right. I just finished a reread of the rulebook and it's not there. It was definitely present in the 3rd edition rulebook and codexes (If I recall correctly it was still vague and said minor things like grenades didn't have to be modeled). It's completely missing from the 4th edition rulebook.

That's a good point. It makes "counts as" far more viable. And I suppose if someone had a bunch of the metal cultists minis, they're certainly chaotic enough to sub in as lesser daemons. Though converted IG might not fit that role as well.

Reflex
18-08-2007, 09:44
(oh, and they do get the Tzeench/Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle special rules too)

wait.. they do? how.... i am a bit slow on the uptake here, i might of missed something.

how can you give havoks the mark of tzeentch?

dogsbollocks
18-08-2007, 10:07
1) Fuss over fans of the Daemons. Despite the forthcoming codex.

2) Fuss because people were minimalists, literalist gamers, and wanted to leave their lists completely unchanged from edition to edition.

3) People whose defining paradigm was the 3.5 codex.

That's what I've gathered.

Agreed. Plus in the mean time I can't use my Lost & the Damned mutant horde until presumably the new Codex Daemons comes out.

That said I broadly like the thrust of the new codex. I can't see many people wanting to use Dreadnoughts, Possessed or Spawn, which is a pity since the new models for the last two are nice. Meanwhile raptors have become cheaper, losing their special rules and so much more worthwhile.

Most of the best options are troop choices and with the way it discourages small units armies should look more balanced. As far as I'm concerned taking two five man troop units to meet an army's minimum requirements then maxing out everything else is an abuse of the list.

And yes, I am one of those people who will have to remodel a number of figures to fit my army into the new codex.

squiggoth
18-08-2007, 10:45
wait.. they do? how.... i am a bit slow on the uptake here, i might of missed something.

how can you give havoks the mark of tzeentch?

Basically, almost any unit in the army (Termies, Havocs, Raptors, Posessed, Chosen, Regular Marines) can be given an Icon, which functions as a "diet Mark".
An Icon of Nurgle gives +T to a unit, an Icon of Tzeentch gives it a Ward save, etc. Those units are more or less "newbie Chaos Marines" who have just started worshipping Chaos. They get their bonus as long as they have their Icon.

Then there's the original Traitor Marines, who are available only as Troops choices (Khorne Berzerkers, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines, Plague Marines). They have an improved version of their patron's Mark and can't loose the bonuses.

All this means that you can have, for instance, Khorne Havocs or Tzeentch Raptors, altough their Icon-based semi-Mark is a bit less strong than the 'proper' Mark of the Berzerkers or the Rubrics.

Reflex
18-08-2007, 11:08
ahhh thanks squig. i missed the bit on how icons affect the whole squad.

cheers

dogsbollocks
18-08-2007, 11:59
The problem with the marks, as I see it, is that apart from the Mark of Chaos Glory, they're expensive and so a few points more you can take the proper cult troops and get fearless and a few other goodies thrown in as well.

I don't know about you guys but I prefer to minimise the chances of my units running off the table. I doubt if the other marks will be used much apart for reasons of theme. Mind you I play a Chaos Undivided army so it doesn't affect me army much.

Wonna
18-08-2007, 13:58
The problem with the marks, as I see it, is that apart from the Mark of Chaos Glory, they're expensive and so a few points more you can take the proper cult troops and get fearless and a few other goodies thrown in as well.

I don't know about you guys but I prefer to minimise the chances of my units running off the table. I doubt if the other marks will be used much apart for reasons of theme. Mind you I play a Chaos Undivided army so it doesn't affect me army much.

With a champion a CSM unit has Ld10. Not very likely to run off the table unless they get done over royally by the enemy (in which case they deserve to run and die). I quite like the idea of Khornate marine squads. Run 'em in a rhino - dismount, rapid fire and still have 3 attacks base if charged the following turn. Chuck in a champion with a power weapon/fist and they can take on damn near anything. With the ability to take icons and a standard armament of bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frag and krak grenades, they are without doubt (IMHO) the most flexible troop type in the game.

Baaltharus
18-08-2007, 14:16
Having a bolter as well as a bolt pistol and cc is in my mind the main reason Codex Chaos is broken. You have 100% more attacks than a normal marine and you don't even have to pay for it.

SM ATSKNF is all well and good but it only comes into play when your getting your ass kicked anyway and start running away. As you've said Wonna, CSM generally have ld 10 and so unless there getting well and truly whooped then there not going to be going anywhere in the first place.

It means you can beat assault armies just have staying in cover and shooting and you can beat shooting armies by doing the exact same thing as you don't need to spend any points on counter attack units. You can also annihilate whole units with powers like lash + vindicators/oblits and cheap chaos terminators all with combi-plasma guns. The rules are nice (except from lash) but the points values for so many core units are well out, the codex is a power gamers dream.

Al.

B Cullen
18-08-2007, 20:12
Hello all, this is my first post, though I've been trolling for a while now. I have been reading everything that I can find about the new CSM codex, but I still have a few questions that haven't been answered, so I'll ask here:

1. I keep hearing that Raptors and Dreadnaughts have been weakened notably, but I haven't found any details yet, does anyone know the specifics? I play Night Lords, so this affects me greatly.

2. Are the Legion specific rules still in effect? I take 4 fast attacks,a nd my friend is really afraid that they are taking away his IW Bassy.

3. A little more specific: Can Chosen still be given jump packs (or any other form of flight) and power weapons?

4. From the above post, can I assume its true that the CSMs now have both bolt pistols/ccws and bolters standard?

I apologise if any of these questions have been answered elsewhere, I have read over 50 pages from various sites, have haven't found them yet. Thanks alot in advance.

Kadaan
18-08-2007, 20:43
Hello all, this is my first post, though I've been trolling for a while now. I have been reading everything that I can find about the new CSM codex, but I still have a few questions that haven't been answered, so I'll ask here:

1. I keep hearing that Raptors and Dreadnaughts have been weakened notably, but I haven't found any details yet, does anyone know the specifics? I play Night Lords, so this affects me greatly.



I wouldn't say the Dreadnought got weakened terribly but the Raptors definitely have. But, and I think that is very important, they now got 1/3 cheaper than before. And they can be kitted out with Marks. I love the new Raptors, will run them with a Mark of Khorne from now on.




2. Are the Legion specific rules still in effect? I take 4 fast attacks,a nd my friend is really afraid that they are taking away his IW Bassy.



Short answer to that: No, there are no Legion specific rules anymore. No more 4 Fast Attack Choices for Night Lords and no more IW Bassy for Iron Warriors either (which by the way lost their 4 HS slots too). But now everyone can take the Vindicator.




3. A little more specific: Can Chosen still be given jump packs (or any other form of flight) and power weapons?



Chosen are quite random now, a lilbit too random for me to be honest. They have to roll on a certain table. They cannot gain Daemonic Flight anymore though. Power Weapons is possible, IF you roll lucky. IMHO they are far too expensive and random to be a viable competitive choice, might make for some fun games though.




4. From the above post, can I assume its true that the CSMs now have both bolt pistols/ccws and bolters standard?



True.


Hope that might have helped...

bagrada
18-08-2007, 20:50
Dreadnaughts weren't really nerfed but their fire frenzy ability was changed to shoot the nearest model whether friendly or not - a change from the previous codex where you only shot nearby friendlies if no enemies were in range and line of sight. Raptors were stripped of their special abilities, lost one special weapon and were given access to marks and a cheaper price tag.

Chosen have infiltrate by default and can't choose any other abilities. They are the only chaos unit with infiltrate. Terminators were split off into their own section so chosen are stuck in power armor. They can however purchase 4-5 weapons upgrades including various power weapons, special weapons and heavy weapons.

Mojaco
18-08-2007, 22:14
SM ATSKNF is all well and good but it only comes into play when your getting your ass kicked anyway and start running away. As you've said Wonna, CSM generally have ld 10 and so unless there getting well and truly whooped then there not going to be going anywhere in the first place.
I suppose you play marines and nothing else, because else you'd appreciate ATSKNF a bit more. I've played eldar mainly for the last year. And I can't begin to recount the numerous instances where units ran off table you because the were unable to regroup below 50%. That rule is incredibly harsh once you have to deal with it. It happened at least once a game, usually more often.

And remember; no ATSKNF means you can be caught by a sweeping advance. Initiative 4 isn't so hot in those situations.

ATSKNF really does make up for the Chaos bolt pistol & CCW. An argument in similar fein like your argument against ATSKNF can be used against the BP & CCW as well. "It's only usful once you get in combat, which doesn't happen until turn 4 or 5" "I'm a shooty army, but I pay 1 point more then before for something I don't use!" etc

loveless
18-08-2007, 22:41
Chosen are quite random now, a lilbit too random for me to be honest. They have to roll on a certain table. They cannot gain Daemonic Flight anymore though. Power Weapons is possible, IF you roll lucky. IMHO they are far too expensive and random to be a viable competitive choice, might make for some fun games though.


Just to clarify/correct, Kadaan, it's Possessed that have the random table, not Chosen. Chosen are the veteran style marines that have Infiltrate.

Sparda
18-08-2007, 22:49
Having a bolter as well as a bolt pistol and cc is in my mind the main reason Codex Chaos is broken. You have 100% more attacks than a normal marine and you don't even have to pay for it.

SM ATSKNF is all well and good but it only comes into play when your getting your ass kicked anyway and start running away. As you've said Wonna, CSM generally have ld 10 and so unless there getting well and truly whooped then there not going to be going anywhere in the first place.

Al.

Well, In a few years, Regular Space marine are going to get the BP/CCW combo standard also. Plus, most Space marines have LD 10(Master) AND ATSKNF(Which, IMO, Is a little bit overpowered).

And what I think the fuss is about- the same as all new codecis(sp). No matter what you do, sombodeys always going to complain. It may be because their favorite unit was nerferd, they lost somthing(Like an IW Bassie, Which could be used in a tratior guard or LATD army), or that the army is no longer Horrendaslly overpowered. Thise kind of people need to learn to adapt and find new stratigies/units.

B Cullen
18-08-2007, 23:00
Just to clarify/correct, Kadaan, it's Possessed that have the random table, not Chosen. Chosen are the veteran style marines that have Infiltrate.

Thanks, I was just about to ask about that. So Chosen can be given power weapons, but not flight? Thats gonna kill my highly converted ret for my Lord, or is there another option?

Rioghan Murchadha
18-08-2007, 23:21
Thanks, I was just about to ask about that. So Chosen can be given power weapons, but not flight? Thats gonna kill my highly converted ret for my Lord, or is there another option?

No worries.. Retinues are a thing of the past now too.. :D

Reflex
18-08-2007, 23:52
there are some annoying bits about the codex. like all the deamonic upgrades are gone. i liked them because you could style your lord, actually give him character, and its not so much like that anymore.

a wile ago i was going to start a thousand sons army and i am glad i didnt, because i (personally) am not convinced by this codex. it dosnt feel like chaos anymore. however, at the same time i dont want to be to quick to judge, so i will wait and see how many other players go with them on the table.

its a kunundrum...

B Cullen
19-08-2007, 00:45
No worries.. Retinues are a thing of the past now too.. :D

?!?!?!?!?!? Explain that one please. I had some hopes before, but this is starting to sound like something that will make me play just Fantasy until the next edition.

Frodo34x
19-08-2007, 00:45
there are some annoying bits about the codex. like all the deamonic upgrades are gone. i liked them because you could style your lord, actually give him character, and its not so much like that anymore.

By style do you mean "able to assualt turn 1"?

boogle
19-08-2007, 00:52
?!?!?!?!?!? Explain that one please. I had some hopes before, but this is starting to sound like something that will make me play just Fantasy until the next edition.

Retinues are gone now from the Listing (same as Command Squads and Honour Guards are no longer Retinues for SM Commanders in the DA and BA Codexes, but seperate units, that don't take up a FOC)

Reflex
19-08-2007, 01:23
By style do you mean "able to assualt turn 1"?

so do those sour grapes taste nice?

there was style, then there was power play. yes alot of the chaos codex was power play, but loosers took it over board and took only the greatest units. i call them loosers because they are the idiots who ruin armies for everyone.

"oh you have a chaos army.. na i dont want to play you, you must be a power gamer..."

WRONG!

B Cullen
19-08-2007, 01:46
Retinues are gone now from the Listing (same as Command Squads and Honour Guards are no longer Retinues for SM Commanders in the DA and BA Codexes, but seperate units, that don't take up a FOC)

Well thats not so bad, as long as I can give them all flight and stick my lord with them, I'm happy, if they can't take power weapons I might have to make some modifications, but thats ok.

Reflex
19-08-2007, 01:47
this is a bit off topic-ish... but can anyone tell me what models they are re-releasing/ re-doing?

i know it would have been asked alot, but i am trying to get up to speed with the happy hap on GW...

Xandros
19-08-2007, 03:18
Well thats not so bad, as long as I can give them all flight and stick my lord with them, I'm happy, if they can't take power weapons I might have to make some modifications, but thats ok.

There's a tiny problem here. Chosen can't have flight. They're infiltrators. If you want a unit of jump infantry you'll have to use raptors, which can be given an icon, two special weapons and a champion.

B Cullen
19-08-2007, 03:55
There's a tiny problem here. Chosen can't have flight. They're infiltrators. If you want a unit of jump infantry you'll have to use raptors, which can be given an icon, two special weapons and a champion.

I guess I misread the above post, so we don't get a type of "honor guard" then? Which means that the only way I can put my flight-capable lord in a squad would be to join him with raptors as you suggested, correct?

Vineas
19-08-2007, 08:17
I guess I misread the above post, so we don't get a type of "honor guard" then? Which means that the only way I can put my flight-capable lord in a squad would be to join him with raptors as you suggested, correct?

That would be correct. However, Icons can make that Raptor squad really nice in helping the Lord kill stuff or with IoN or IoT can make sure that the squad lasts long enough to deliver the Lord to where he has to go. :)

It is soooooo refreshing to see reviews of the 'dex that don't resort to JJ being called names and GW in general being ***** canned. I'm glad I'm not the only one who looks at the glass as being half full. :)

3.5 Codex wasn't fit to wipe my **** with, I'm glad to see this one will be worth of starting up a Chaos army for. :)

Sons of Russ
19-08-2007, 18:22
Most of the teeth-gnashing has come from self-described "veterans" who actually only started playing during 3rd Edition and thus were unfamiliar and ill-prepared for the fact that GW ALWAYS changes key rules and invalidates models when new editions and codicies are released.

Remember kids, if you see a particularily good unit in your NEW/ existing codex, try NOT to spam it as you will find these are the first units to be targeted with the nerf-hammer next time around.

Ironically, its GW's way of getting people to build well rounded army lists.....after they have spent a couple of years buying large formations of their favourite uber units....;)



e.g. I have one assault cannon in my 1700 pt list. My 2000 point list has none.:cheese:

Vineas
19-08-2007, 18:31
Most people I seem to think are so called "vets" remind me of the people who claim their stuff on Ebay is "pro-painted"......ie, just an empty term that they use to try to add weight to their arguments.

I really don't consider myself a "vet" and I came in at the end of 2nd edition, Chaos was my first army in fact and my first love. I think I've owned/played just about every army under the sun (except Orks but thats gonna change next winter/srping :D) and I still prefer Chaos to any other army, especially NOW with the new codex. I stopped playing in 3rd because of the 3.5 'dex, didn't take me long to realize what a piece of ***** that was, every power-gamers dream codex right there.

Sons of Russ
19-08-2007, 19:17
there are some annoying bits about the codex. like all the deamonic upgrades are gone. i liked them because you could style your lord, actually give him character, and its not so much like that anymore.


its a kunundrum...

you can style and give him character. Start making some conversions and your lord will be unique.

This is the problem with Chaos; even though no one else can link together ridiculous amounts of gifts to make the commander/DP-equivalent nigh untouchable, thats just the way it is because....they're chaos! There were just too many options in the old codex that made for abusable combinations that broke game mechanics.

Far too many gamers went to Chaos because of the ability to "list-hammer" their army to an extent that little tactical acumen was required.

Infiltrating Lord with Speed....hmmm I wonder how long he'll have to carefully advance and hug terrain...:rolleyes:

Many dissappointed chaos players should find there is a metagame they are missing out on that can be used for any/all units rather than focusing on the list aspect of the game.

here are two good links for your perusal:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40543

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41409

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 19:33
I suppose you play marines and nothing else, because else you'd appreciate ATSKNF a bit more. I've played eldar mainly for the last year. And I can't begin to recount the numerous instances where units ran off table you because the were unable to regroup below 50%. That rule is incredibly harsh once you have to deal with it. It happened at least once a game, usually more often.

And remember; no ATSKNF means you can be caught by a sweeping advance. Initiative 4 isn't so hot in those situations.

ATSKNF really does make up for the Chaos bolt pistol & CCW. An argument in similar fein like your argument against ATSKNF can be used against the BP & CCW as well. "It's only usful once you get in combat, which doesn't happen until turn 4 or 5" "I'm a shooty army, but I pay 1 point more then before for something I don't use!" etc

You pressume incorrectly, I play Eldar and Chaos as well as Blood Angels. I've never had that many troubles with my Eldar as I rarely put them in positions where they have to take ld checks. I don't agree that ATSKNF is comparable to ld 10 and 2 attacks for the reaons I've already stated.

Al.

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 19:35
Sorry, double post.

RTB01
19-08-2007, 21:04
Biggest problems with the new dex is that most armies are going to be structured in the same way as there are too many "it'd be rude not to" options. 2nd, too many people's models have been invalidated. If you think that's a good thing, fine, but you're wrong!

Belisarius
19-08-2007, 21:06
well in response to the question what is wrong/right with the new dex I am going to post a pretty good review filled with humor that sums up what is wrong with it quite well as well as what it got right. As for sons of russ harping about veterans let me just respond with this. Veteran players of 10 or more years are an important aspect to this hobby. They often provide terrain for game clubs and painting and army building advice to new players. Veteran players are the bedrock on which most gaming clubs are based upon so to dismiss them so quickly is foolish. Veterans often form the fan base for a particular army and are very good at attracting intrest in an army to a new player. To Antagonize the veterans is to risk the support for a new product line by GW. Afterall despite liking the new possessed models I will not buy them as they suck so hard core in the new dex. Veterans in short make up an important aspect of this hobby and to minimize their opinion with one sweeping statement is unbelievably stupid. and now for the review (which by the way did make me laugh)
** This is a recently-posted review of the forth-coming Chaos Codex
** I think it may interest people on this list.
** Please have a good read then comment on it.
** Note: I did not write it!!!!

An Exercise in Futility
-OR-
HBMC's Review of Codex Chaos Space Marines (http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/181809/Default.aspx)

Lord_Crull
19-08-2007, 21:30
http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/181809/Default.aspx

This is the link the the review. A lot for indepth. The Author makes makes a lot of good points.

Baaltharus
19-08-2007, 23:21
Whoa...thats one hefty rant. Here was me thinking the codex was off because things were undercosted.

Al.

willydstyle
19-08-2007, 23:25
I really dislike this guy's review. It gets a lot of the rules wrong, he intentionally glances over the good parts wihle going into extreme detail about the bad parts.

Vineas
19-08-2007, 23:36
I read the full review on Dakka and read every single post to come after his review. I applaud the man, he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else.

The problem I have with his review and with the whole dakka community is that if you don't agree with HBSMC then you are a fanboi and an apologist. Dakkaites bash Warseer for wearing rose-colored glasses. Well, the world isn't all bleak and dreary. Maybe Dakkaites should take off their sunglasses and see the light in the world, not all is darkness and shadow (unless yer one of those types of people).

I'm a realist, not an apologist. The reality of the situation is that there are ways to use EVERY existing model in the new 'dex, even if there are no longer any rules associated for it or you don't LIKE the rules.

I don't like everything in the new codex but I'm at least willing to give it a chance which is obviously more than some people can be bothered to do. Dakka reminds me of the Nazi regime during WW2. If you didn't agree with what Hitler proposed you were chastized, imprisoned and sometimes killed (or all 3). The entire thread dedicated to that review of the codex did nothing but rip on Warseer and anyone who does not agree with everything that was said, even going so far as to call people lemmings or calling people stupid.

I have never seen such a large number of whiners in all my history of 40k as I have now. Even back in the days of Portent the whining was not that much and that was back during the transition of 2nd to 3rd when every single army out there had models/units/entire armies disappear. I didn't see 300+ pages and 1,000s of posts from Squat players and by all rights they should have an entire 400 page novel dedicated to their feelings....sheeesh.

I like the new Chaos and Eldar and DA codeciies. If that makes me a lemming or an apologist or fanboi then so be it. This is a small part of my life, I have more import ***** to worry about then how someone who plays something as nerdy as toy soldiers thinks of me and my opinions on a nerd hobby. Remember people, in the eyes of 90% of the worlds populace we are all nerds who can't get laid and have never problably even seen a real woman naked and to call people names and discredit them over a game of little plastic army men makes you an even bigger nerd (and an a*hole too). Look in the mirror next time you feel inclined to bash on someone over something that you don't agree with because as long as you are part of this hobby yer still a nerd, plain and simple, and you are no better than the people you are bashing on.

So yeah, On topic I like the sound of the new codex and I'm gonna build an army (or 3 out of it). The old 'dex (3.5) was the reason I quit Chaos, this new one is the reason I'm gonna start again. :)

He goes on to say at the end that the new codex is NOT fun. Well, I had no fun with the old 'dex, I thought the old codex was more an excersise in mathmatics and logic solving than fun. Same was said about Eldar codex too and I LOVE the new Eldar codex, it's fun because I have to choose from EVERYTHING which IMO is more fun than going "hmmmmm, Vypers or Vypers" or "Farseer or Farseer"....yeah, so many fun choices there. :P

My 2 cents.

Belisarius
20-08-2007, 00:00
I really dislike this guy's review. It gets a lot of the rules wrong, he intentionally glances over the good parts wihle going into extreme detail about the bad parts.

Rules wrong? Such as? Give examples please. Glances over the good parts? Did you read the full review? he does talk about the art being well done, the fluff being good, even likes the new khorne berserkers, Abaddon, and compliments the new possessed models but finds it a shame the rules for them are so messed up. He even says the new greater daemons are a steal at 100 pts.
Extreme detail about the bad parts, you mean the rest of the dex? His complaints with it are well articulated and backed by the facts. No +1 attack for being in termie armor:wtf: The possessed rules:wtf: the defiler being a cc monster as a joke:wtf: I hear apologists constantly saying the defiler only lost indirect fire... well this guy shows it ain't the case the ws increase and BS decrease really are nuts. Furthermore his gripe with the layout is valid as is the point costs for units complaints.
As for the new dex being more fun and having more options I suggest you stop popping prozak like it's candy because the majority of legion players are very unhappy with the new dex. And attacking his review because he's from Dakka is simply childish. It could easily be argued that Dakka tends to be more rosy eyed towards GW than Warseer. Where he posts is hardly relevant to what he writes. So unless the apologist can make a better arguement other than he posts from Dakka, liar liar pants on fire with no examples to back it up i think i will take his view over yours. Oh and personally I found the sarcastic humor in his review the only thing I've been able to smile about in regards to the new codex.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
20-08-2007, 01:20
I enjoy reading your review :) it is nice (besides - night lords have more photos than the cleaved, and tousand sons,world eaters,death guard,iron warriors have more models than them also)


i just disagree with your conception - i dont like modeling 375 different lord models just in case i want to take gift x,s,a and pair of master crafted lighting claws - before you say i'm not forced to do it read WYSWYG of most competentive tournaments around. thats why i think current set up is more player friendly.

you dont have to model his daemonic mutation or spiky bits anymore or better yet - you can make model which in current edition is overpriced(like servo arm one for exemple or with bionics or banner on slaaneshi choosen)

GW break some costs (possessed,some icons,spawn,lash,extra armour, daemonic weapons etc) and rules (possessed,dreadnought,lash,spawn) but overall it is nice codex :)

Sons of Russ
20-08-2007, 02:19
Pages 17-24:

This section goes back to Renegade Marines, and while it is interesting it's
the typical 'vague' GW fluff that gives you hints at events, but doesn't go
into detail as they're designed to be plot-hooks for your own Renegade Army.
Nevertheless, it is an interesting read, and presents a side of Chaos we
don't
really know. The Traitor Legions aren't completely forgotten, and their time
in the Eye of Terror and their hatred for the Imperium is mentioned, so
that's
good.
We do go into depth with one story about a Sergeant from the Sons of
Guilleman's 4th Company. It has some nice detail, and, like with the other
fluff, it's fun, so quite a welcome addition.



We also get a bit about the fanaticism of the Word Bearers and the insidious
nature of the Alpha Legion. There's a pretty cool story about the Alpha
Legion infiltrating the Emperor's Swords Chapter over a period of 300 years,
resulting in the theft of their geneseed and the complete destruction of all
Loyalist elements of the Chapter.



This section contains a lot of colour photos of different Renegade Chaos
Chapters. Sadly, all of the Traitor Legions are pigeon holed into this
section, proving once again that all your wonderful Alpha Legion and Word
Bearer armies are nothing more than a fancy paint job in this Codex.

But let's have a little fun and pick apart some of these silly Chapter
names:

Angels of Ecstasy - Almost as derivative as 'Blood Ravens', don't'cha think?
Bleak Brotherhood - Do they cry themselves to sleep?
Brotherhood of Darkness - I take back my comments about the Angels, this
Chapter is derivative.
Claws of Lorek - Cool colour scheme. It's like tiger-stripe on black.
Company of Misery - These all sound like bad Emo band names. If the Legion
of Bonham is in here, I'll cry.
Death Shadows - Snore.
Disciples of Destruction - Gav has discovered alliteration!
Dragon Warriors - Aren't they a Cursed Founding Chapter?
Iron Warriors - They look pink for some odd reason. I guess NMM's don't work
on paper.
Knights of Blood - God.
Lords of Decay - Excellent. Why not call them the Guards of Death. Let's
have the Eaters of Worlds and the Warriors of Iron. How 'bout the Bearers of
Word?
Punishers - Who look like they're dressed up for Halloween.
The Sanctifiers - Cool name for Traitors, I have to say.
The Reborn - Cooler name for Traitors.
Skull Takers - They look about as threatening as 1KSons in the last Codex.
Steel Brethren - Legion of Black! Legion Alpha! Children of the Emperor!
Unknown - HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!
Warriors of Mayhem - Fighters of Craziness. Troops of Insanity! Parabola of
Mystery!

There's a page about the Black Legion that is nice, including their Legion
Banner that was held aloft over Castle Wernerstien. When I first read that I
thought it said Castle Wolfenstein, then I had an image of Space Marines
fighting Nazi's. That would rule. The variant colour scheme for the Black
Legion is also very cool.

There's a bit about the Planet of Steel, currently occupied by the Iron
Warriors. The Iron Warriors get a bit of fluff for themselves. No mention of
Lord Petros Heinous and his legions of Heavy Support choices though.

And that brings the fluff to an end. Now we're into the rules. It's all
downhill from here folks.


Pages 25-28:

We know the rules for Marks. They're a gross simplification. No more Blood
Rage, True Grit, or anything resembling interesting rules. They're just +1A,
+1I, +1T and some funky Invul rules for 1KSons.

We get stuff on Icons without any rules. Mentions of Havocs for some reason.
There's a whole paragraph on how Havocs love to use Rhinos. Umm. what? Stuff
on Chosen and Chaos Bikers. Boring, boring, boring. Chosen can Infiltrate.
Whatever. Terminators can always Deep Strike for some reason.


Page 29:

Possessed get their own special mention because of just how much they suck.
How can you use a unit where you don't know what they're capable of until
just before the battle? How can you plan to use them when you don't know if
they'll be getting Scouts, Power Weapons or Fleet of Foot? Moreover, this is
done after deployment, so you don't even know how you'll use them until
after you've been forced to place them on the table. What if you placed them
back and rolled Scouts? What if you placed them forward and scored Furious
Charge?

This unit is hopeless. I love the new models, but they are unusable.


Pages 30-44:

Here we get the 'Codex without the points' part of the Codex, the bit where
they give you all the rules, but none of the prices and none of the
(extremely limited) options. And just like the Dark Angel 'Codex' and Codex:
Falcon Grav Tanks, it's as maddeningly useless as before. Chaos players had
a complicated 'Dex with the last edition, but now they have to flip back and
forth to find out what a Bloodthirster. wait. sorry. Bloodthirsters don't
exist now. Let me start again. Now they have to flop back and forth to find
out what rules their units have and then back to see what options they can
get.

On the bright side, Chaos players that own Codex: Dark Angels can just keep
the front section of that book open and the army list from the Chaos Codex.
As Chaos and Loyalist are so utterly identical now, it should cut down time
on flipping back and forth through the book.

Chaos Lords are WS6. Ok, doesn't matter all that much. They have an inherent
5+(I) save. Sorcerers have Force Weapons, which I hate. I liked it when
Force Weapons were something loyalists had. Wait! How could I be so stupid?
This Codex is just When Loyalists Go Bad. By rights Razorbacks and Land
Speeders should have been included in this book.

Daemon Prince. Wow. How the might have fallen hey? Yeah, ok, inherent WS7
and S6 is nice, as are the 4th Wound & Attack. But talk about dull!

The Spawn is terrible. No armour save makes it virtually impossible to use.
It doesn't even have a 5+(I) daemonic aura save.

Raptors are just Assault Marines. They're identical. There's no 'Chaos'
here.

Now Oblits are Techmarines. Ok, whatever. I really do not know why people
think these are awesome units. They're more expensive than they used to be,
their stats have gotten worse and they've lost their Heavy Bolters and
Autocannons.

Berzerkers, IMO, are actually under-costed. Sure, they lost their Chainaxes,
but they removed that idiotic Blood Rage that made them so difficult to
control, gave 'em Frags and F-Charge as standard, and bumped their WS to 5,
so they're effectively hitting everyone on 3+. All for less points than your
typical Berzerker from the last Codex (which came in at 24 w/Frags, F-Charge
and Chainaxes).

With 1KSons it's your typical GW pendulum swing, and they've swung it hard.
What was once a 24-point Bolter Marine with 2 wounds has become an AP3
spitting Marine that shrugs off fully half the firepower you direct at them.
They're still slow.

Plague Marines may be tough, but damn are they expensive. These guys are
good on paper, and probably good in game, but I think the 'more men' factor
will eventually weigh against the Plague Marines, as you might be able to
save points and buy more of the cheaper Noise Marines and leave dealing with
enemy assault troops to Princes with the Lash.

The Sonic Blaster is still stupidly overpriced. 5 points each for a few more
bolter shots isn't all that special. Noise Marines are lucky as they're
probably one of the few units that can do a lot of things. It's the I5 that
does it, as their HTH abilities are increased significantly by their ability
to swing before mostly everyone. They are also the only unit in the Codex
that can be small with a heavy weapon. And speaking of the Heavy Weapons,
Blastmasters are not worth 40 points. Not by anyone's standards. True, even
with the 40 point Blastmaster, it's cheaper to buy 5 Noise Marines and a
Blastmaster than it is 10 of useless CSMs and a single heavy weapon, but
c'mon
- 40 points for a blast Krak Launcher? How do GW honestly come up with
these prices.

The Dreadnought rules ensure that no one will ever use one. The Fire Frenzy
ensures that no one will ever give them decent guns if they do take one. Is
it clear that these guys aren't getting a new model? I'm sure if there was a
new plastic Chaos Dread kit, it'd have totally roXx0r rules. but it's the
same metal one from 2nd Ed with the now-illegal Thunder Hammer and Power
Scourge, so no, no good rules for it, only rules to ensure that they won't
sell any more. Pity the Forge World dreads are so pretty.

Oh, and I'd like to mention that the Chaos Dreadnought has access to one -
count 'em - one vehicle upgrade. Extra Armour. For 15 points. As I said
above, no one's gonna be bringing Dreads after this book hits.

GW wants to emphasise the HTH nature of the Defiler. To do this they gave
the Defiler the same weapon skill as a Guardsman. They also made it BS3, so
it's as good a shot as a Guardsman. Thankfully you can replace its guns with
close combat weapons for free, so it'll have 5 attacks. That's 6 on the
charge, meaning it'll hit 3 Marines, and kill two. All that for 150 points!
What a bargain. And by bargain I mean 'complete waste of time'.

Next up is the Dark Angel Rhino, now with added spikes to make it 'Chaos'.
15 point Extra Armour never looked so good!

Next up is the Dark Angel Predator, also with lots of spikes. And 60 point
Lascannons that it can't fire on the move. GW, you sure know how to make a
crap rule set.

The Land Raider is. well... it's a Land Raider.

Chaos Vindicator. I think armies with 3 of these things, Possessed, will
make for a scary force. This is also supposed to appease us Iron Warrior
players for taking away all our rules. Wonder what the Word Bearer players
get? Fancy new Daemon rules? Well, as it happens.


Page 61-63:

I'm skipping ahead a little here, because it's time to discuss the single
greatest tragedy with the Chaos Codex. No folks, I'm not talking about the
author, I'm talking about the section entitled 'Summoned Daemons'.

We'll start with a quote from the fluff in this section:



'Some Daemons are weak, flittering things created from base emotions, but
with little personality or direction' - Codex: When Good Marines Go Bad,
Page 61.

I must say, ne'er a truer word has been spoken in a GW rulebook.

The Daemons in this Codex, both 'Greater' and 'Lesser' (although I'd argue
that a more accurate description for both types would be "Less Than" ) truly
have 'little personality'. And if we're talking about the 'base emotions'
that went into the design of these Daemons, I'd have to say that 'boredom'
and 'laziness' would be my chief candidates.

Sitting in front of me now I have a very old Games Workshop rulebook. Most
of you here will probably have only heard of it, and chances are the closest
you'll ever get to seeing it is in a small thumbnail picture in an eBay
auction. I am of course talking about one of the Realms of Chaos books -
ancient tomes from which so much current fluff has been pilfered over the
years. In this case it is the Slaves to Darkness book, the one detailing
Khornate and Slaaneshi forces. This book goes into great detail about
different types of Daemons, the nature of Khorne and Slaanesh, and includes
rules that have ludicrous amounts of detail - there is a D1000 table in
here, I kid you not. This book contains the first ever rules for the
Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus, a new weapon called the Psycannon, and the
Grey Knights army list. It also contains army lists for Black Legion, World
Eaters and Emperor's Children.

The book is insane. Bloodthirsters used to carry big axes that contained
within them another Bloodthirster, who could pop out during the game. They
cost 900 or so points of course, so it made sense. There were Fiends, and
Daemonettes, Flesh Hounds and Juggernauts. There were rules for Daemon
Princes that make the last Codex look like a 'colour by numbers' children's
book. As I said, this book is insane.

Now let's jump back to the new Chaos Codex. What have we got?



Greater Daemons.

Lesser Daemons.

That's it.

Admittedly, Greater Daemons do have a nice statline, and at 100 points they
are an absolute steal, but these rules are supposed to represent all Greater
Daemons, from Bloodthirsters to Keepers of Secrets, from Great Unclean Ones
to Lords of Change.

It's just wrong.

Does it not sicken anyone here that Games Workshop has seen fit to publish
three different sets of Terminator Teleportation rules for three different
Codex Astartes-following Space Marine Chapters (Ultras, Imp Fists, Dark
Angels), yet there isn't enough difference in their minds between a
Bloodthirster and a Lord of Change to warrant even a different statline!!!

And then there's the Lesser Daemons. This section represents:

Nurglings
Plague Bearers
Bloodletters
Flesh Hounds
Horrors

Flamers
Screamers
Daemonettes
Daemonette Cavalry
Furies

And how are these wonderful, characterful, colourful and completely and
utterly unique units represented in this new Chaos Codex?

A 13 point model with WS4 S4 T4 A2, Fearlessness and a 5+ Invulnerable save.
They're Fearless Space Marine Scouts with +1A, a lesser saving throw, and no
weapons. I can imagine every Word Bearer player going mad right now,
Emperor's
Children players wondering what they're going to do with all their
Daemonettes, and players with bases of Nurglings thinking what to do with
their pint-sized Daemons that now have the same rules as their friend's
Screamers and Horrors.

This section, more than the heavily and needlessly simplified rules, more
than the complete lack of variety or flavour in the rest of the list, and
more than the nonsensical pricing structure of limited upgrades - more than
anything really - epitomises exactly what is wrong with not only the Codex,
but the mindset of the bumbling buffoons writing it.

After reading pages 61-63 of the new Chaos Codex, I am left with only two
words to say to Mr. Thorpe, Mr. Cavatore and Mr. Johnson:


F#%k. You.


This section is an insult to Chaos players. It is a directed attack levelled
at the people who have been playing Chaos for years and those of us with
hordes of different types of Daemons - expensive, metal Daemon models, I
might add. I don't care that in 6 months to 3 years we'll be getting a
'Daemons Codex'. That doesn't change anything. This Codex was bad to begin
with, but it collapses under the weigh of its own blandness and stupidity
with this section.

Ok, enough about these so-called Daemons, let's get back to where we were.


Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.

The Dark Side, in you I sense.

Brother_Iron
20-08-2007, 02:28
You may call me a sour player, but as an IW player, I'm dissappointed with the codex. (And no, I don't have 9 oblits, and think I'm a IG Tank Commander in power armor either) I got into this hobby for the hobby part of it, I have a whole ton of models that are only there for adding charcter to the army. Granted, I also have a competetive side to it as well, but it looks as if thats going to be sitting on my shelf until the next edition of 40k.

It just strikes me as odd that the higher ups in GW seem to be getting rid of anything that Andy Chambers had a hand in, and taking a step backward for some reason. Kinda gald my gaming group started playing Privateer stuff a while back. Just sucks cause the newer stuff comming out looks cool, and I kinda was hoping they didn't completely re-write the codex because some players either cried/ and or power gamed the army to death.

Oh well, I'll just finish up my Grand Company and wait til they come out with 5th edition 40k or something.

Belisarius
20-08-2007, 02:38
quote from sons of russ
The Dark Side, in you I sense.
if you play Chaos it's kinda the point.
Furthermore acheron it's not my review it was taken from Dakka. A black legion or red corsair chapter would indeed have a different conception than the other eight founding legions. I just wish the codex had taken that into account for legion armies and allowed some character or design to go for the legions. For a red corsair or black legion the list would not seem so horrible, for a nightlord, Word bearer or any other legion it seems to be crap.

Sons of Russ
20-08-2007, 02:44
You may call me a sour player, but as an IW player, I'm dissappointed with the codex. (And no, I don't have 9 oblits, and think I'm a IG Tank Commander in power armor either) I got into this hobby for the hobby part of it, I have a whole ton of models that are only there for adding charcter to the army. Granted, I also have a competetive side to it as well, but it looks as if thats going to be sitting on my shelf until the next edition of 40k.

It just strikes me as odd that the higher ups in GW seem to be getting rid of anything that Andy Chambers had a hand in, and taking a step backward for some reason. Kinda gald my gaming group started playing Privateer stuff a while back. Just sucks cause the newer stuff comming out looks cool, and I kinda was hoping they didn't completely re-write the codex because some players either cried/ and or power gamed the army to death.

Oh well, I'll just finish up my Grand Company and wait til they come out with 5th edition 40k or something.

Would you care to post your old Irons Warriors list that has been so pillaged then?

I sure we can help you transfer everything over since you have stated yours was not a power gamer list.

Please post it. Here I sit,rapt with anticipation.

The_Patriot
20-08-2007, 02:51
Isn't it ironic that Chaos Players don't really like the chaos the new Codex brings?

Things change and evolve, so the only thing I can say is deal with it as best you can. The new Codex is a lot easier to understand then the old one. Keep in mind that this is just the first book for Chaos and they're getting another book next year that fills out the daemons further. At least you have basic daemons for now because GW could have dropped them until the release of the next Chaos book.

willydstyle
20-08-2007, 03:31
Rules wrong? Such as? Give examples please. Glances over the good parts? Did you read the full review? he does talk about the art being well done, the fluff being good, even likes the new khorne berserkers, Abaddon, and compliments the new possessed models but finds it a shame the rules for them are so messed up. He even says the new greater daemons are a steal at 100 pts.
Extreme detail about the bad parts, you mean the rest of the dex? His complaints with it are well articulated and backed by the facts. No +1 attack for being in termie armor:wtf: The possessed rules:wtf: the defiler being a cc monster as a joke:wtf: I hear apologists constantly saying the defiler only lost indirect fire... well this guy shows it ain't the case the ws increase and BS decrease really are nuts. Furthermore his gripe with the layout is valid as is the point costs for units complaints.
As for the new dex being more fun and having more options I suggest you stop popping prozak like it's candy because the majority of legion players are very unhappy with the new dex. And attacking his review because he's from Dakka is simply childish. It could easily be argued that Dakka tends to be more rosy eyed towards GW than Warseer. Where he posts is hardly relevant to what he writes. So unless the apologist can make a better arguement other than he posts from Dakka, liar liar pants on fire with no examples to back it up i think i will take his view over yours. Oh and personally I found the sarcastic humor in his review the only thing I've been able to smile about in regards to the new codex.

I simply stated my opinion of a review that you did not write... I don't think the insult about "prozak" was very necessary. Anyways, he fails to mention the fact that all CSM have CCW/Bolt pistol/bolter/all grenades. He fails to mention that obliterators have plasma cannon and multi-meltas now. He fails to mention that the Land Raider got a big price reduction (but lost some rules). There are several other parts where he either gets a rule wrong, or neglects to mention a buff. You seem to be defending the point of view that the codex is trash, even though I didn't say anything about that. I happen to like the new codex, but some of the points costs do make me scratch my head, and I'm upset that they handed out nerfs where they weren't needed (possessed and dreadnoughts come to mind) but the writer of this review is obviously trying to get people to agree with him, rather than writing a legitimate review of the new codex.

sebster
20-08-2007, 03:51
its funny how some people seem to be able to determine the "worth" of a codex without playing a game.

Because lots of people spend a lot of their time building army lists and posting on internet forums but little or no time actually playing the game. The value of a codex is in its ability to produce diverse, powerful lists, even if each of those lists is a one trick pony thatís dull to play after the first game. There is no value in producing lists with diverse tactical options that can be played differently from game to game, because each list is only to be built then discarded, not actually played.

Note the complaint in the review above about tactical marines, only considering them as a heavy weapon platform and not as unit skilled in medium and close range fire and in assault. There was no consideration given to the range of roles the unit could perform, based on the rest of the army and mission objective. Note the complaint about the defiler, seeing it only as a dedicated assault unit, instead of as a battlecannon/countercharge unit.

Then again, this guy is an IW player, so its possible he could have played 2 games a day for 5 years and never gone beyond Ďstand still and unleash template death, then complain about getting a low comp scoreí.

Belisarius
20-08-2007, 04:35
how much did a Land raider drop in points, it was 250 pt standard before what is it now?
Yes he glosses over the basic tactical squad and i disagree with him on it. The multiple weapons is nice but i'd still rather be able to customize them with a veteran skill at 3pts per model and forsake the true grit ability.
What other rules did he get wrong as i am very curious being as i do not own the new dex yet.
As for legion players being one trick ponies that never play and have no tactical variety, I am an AL player who plays at the game club every Saturday. And while my frequent tactic is to use infiltrate to set up firelines and ambush points I have used my AL list to have swarms of cultists with an armoured coloumn of marines and vehicles moving to suport them, infiltrating troop choices to pour fire on the enemy while termies deepstrike and bikes roll into one flank and roll it up. And a number of other tactical variations.
For the record i have never used a Daemon prince with speed or wings or infiltrate as it didn't fit my fluff. so i would hardly generalize all legion players into one trick poney players. Kinda like saying all SW or BA players are one trick poney armies when in fact they are themed armies.
As for the prozack remark if it offended you i retract it...if you think that possessed are good rule wise I will not.
As for the generic daemons this bothers me a lot simply because i take it as an insult. Doing a half assed job bothers me in anything. if you are going to do a chaos dex do the daemons when you do it. Don't go half ways and say you'll finish it later. If I pay someone to change the oil on my car i don't want to show up and have the mechanic tell me he drained the oil and in a day or two he'll replace the filter and add more oil. It is sloppy and unprofessional IMO.
And if the studio was in turmoil getting apoc ready, well fine then push the chaos dex back until you can do the job right. Don't pass on shoddy half done workmanship.
As for the Defiler being a cc monster i agree. If you are going to advertise it as such see to it that it meets the standard. The idea of the Defiler being as skilled as guardsman Bob is laughable. The problem with the defiler is by taking away mutated hull and indirect fire and saying it's a cc monster and giving it guardsman stats is that it is going to die very very quickly. it's a more expensive Dred with a battlecannon. Though i never bothered much with them to begin with (bought one simply because the kit was really nice so i threw it in my LatD).

Hellebore
20-08-2007, 04:40
What do you expect from a community of people who love to swim in their own loathing?

Dakka prides itself on being a bunch of pessimistic bile soaked little boys with IMPORTANT OPINIONS (TM).

Of course, I'm an apologist and a fanboi, and see through rose tinted glasses, and a Warseer lackey, so my opinion counts for nil.

However, the amount of vitriolic hyperbole that is spouted on Dakka was the reason I stopped posting there, nothing constructive is ever said, just the same old bitter cud is chewed over, again and again.

They aren't interested in actual logical, evidence based discussion, they simply want to prove how much bigger their doodle is than Tom Kirby's :rolleyes:

Hellebore

sebster
20-08-2007, 04:53
As for legion players being one trick ponies that never play and have no tactical variety, I am an AL player who plays at the game club every Saturday. And while my frequent tactic is to use infiltrate to set up firelines and ambush points I have used my AL list to have swarms of cultists with an armoured coloumn of marines and vehicles moving to suport them, infiltrating troop choices to pour fire on the enemy while termies deepstrike and bikes roll into one flank and roll it up. And a number of other tactical variations.

AL was one of the more diverse builds but they still tended towards all infiltrating armies, and that list wasnít fun to play against. And your examples were all still armies with a pre-loaded playing style. The new style of codex is interesting because of the number of units that have adaptability built in.

Thatís the change that a lot of people like the above reviewer simply havenít been able to understand. The difference in play is remarkable, with players making decisions each turn as to how to best adapt to the current situation, not just continuing the rigid plan committed to when the list was built.

Sons of Russ
20-08-2007, 07:15
What do you expect from a community of people who love to swim in their own loathing?

Dakka prides itself on being a bunch of pessimistic bile soaked little boys with IMPORTANT OPINIONS (TM).

Of course, I'm an apologist and a fanboi, and see through rose tinted glasses, and a Warseer lackey, so my opinion counts for nil.

However, the amount of vitriolic hyperbole that is spouted on Dakka was the reason I stopped posting there, nothing constructive is ever said, just the same old bitter cud is chewed over, again and again.

They aren't interested in actual logical, evidence based discussion, they simply want to prove how much bigger their doodle is than Tom Kirby's :rolleyes:

Hellebore

Amen.

the dakka boys must be really furious now, their shouting and teeth-gnashing for attention has carried over faintly as a gentle breeze for our enjoyment.

Fortunately, that's all it is. Entertainment. Kinda like watching Jerry Springer.

rintinglen
20-08-2007, 08:17
Frodo, Ole Buddy, Ole Pal. Berserkers did not gain Furious charge. They had it as an option before, in fact, mine always had it. They lost the Chainaxe and Blood Rage. In the past, a squad of zerkers would own a squad of terminators on the charge. That aint gonna happen anymore.

Sovereign
20-08-2007, 09:29
Isn't it ironic that Chaos Players don't really like the chaos the new Codex brings?
I'm a Chaos player, and I really like the new Codex.

I've been wanting to play a "Fallen SM" army based around HtH-oriented Troopers. So the new Chaos book fits me to a "T".

I'm planning on fielding Daemon Princes, Dreadnought, Defilers, Raptors, Chosen, and plain regular CSM. I might add some Termies or Cult Troops, but haven't decided yet.

yphead
20-08-2007, 10:35
I think one of the main problems is towards the olders players (like me) who have nicely converted their armies based on the last codex. for example the cult terminators, Thousandsons with a Sorcerer, possessed dreadnoughts, and cult vehicles are no longer wsiwig, are therefor cann't be played.
I had (have just sold it piece meal) a thousandsons detatchement with a Deamon tzeentch detatchment in support..... the whole concept is now unplayable.

What I find a shame is the lack of consideration the writers had with regard to this aspect of Chaos, and even if it is too late for me, I hope for the game and for chaos they review their plans and release in an up and comming white dwarf "Cult army lists". We saw in the last codex it only took 3 pages per God, so they could space it out over 2 or 4 WDs.

Oh and one question, if i have understood correctly the marine unit no longer has a "mark" the powers are based on the "icon". So what happeneds if an assasin kills the icon bearer? Or if the icon bearer is the only viable target..............

Bassik
20-08-2007, 10:43
The biggest problem for me, as a Black Legion and Thousand Son player, is not that several precious models got obsolete, but the weird departure from the legions to renegades.
I allways liked the idea of the Legions, it had a sence of power, and even the name sounded cooler.
Renegade Space Marines does not sound cool. It sounds like some crappy 80's film.
First they where the bane of mankind, heretics, mutants, and driven by their burning hatred for the Imperium.
Now they are... pirates?

Apart from that, and the aparent destruction of Daemons, I realy like the rules of the new codex, and the lay out is simple, if not a bit impractical with the two army lists... first you get Army List with special rules and fluff but no pointcost, then you have to flip trough the colour pages to get to Army List without special rules and fluff, but with pointcost:wtf:

And the wargear section also floats around somewhere.. I stumbled upon it two times or something, but can never seem to find it when I need it.
I believe that the book is possessed and the wargear section migrates from page to page..

Mojaco
20-08-2007, 10:48
That review depresses me. Sounds like the wrong kind of nerd. You know, the un-social know-it-all who listens to just one opinion; his. The part where he mocks nearly every renegade name demonstrates this best. Arogant ass.

The codex is well written, clear and solves everything that was wrong with CSM. And those complains about flipping back and forth is so stupid in regard to CSM. Read the current CSM codex more critically and you'll notice you need dozens of flips to learn what you can do with some units.
Want to make a unit thousand sons? Page 28, 38 and 59. A nurgle lord with Manreaper? Page 13, 22, 51. Normal marines with an aspiring champion? Page 14, 16-20 and 28. And most of the pages have point costs, so even knowing what everything does will eliminate only a few flips back and forth.

The new style however uses just 10 pages for every point cost. So once you know the codex, you can pump out army lists. I've got my eldar codex a year now and it's the easiest one for making army lists. In-game, when I need to check a rule, I'll just go to one page where every rule of that unit is explained. How can you dislike this system?

Bassik
20-08-2007, 10:53
EASY there, big fella! I never sayd the last codex was heavenly for army composition, but this one could have been so much betther then it is.
Ah well, I guess we have to get used to it, then, its not like our complaining will change anything

Bloodknight
20-08-2007, 12:10
for example the cult terminators, Thousandsons with a Sorcerer, possessed dreadnoughts, and cult vehicles are no longer wsiwig, are therefor cann't be played.

Where is the problem? Slap a banner on one of the termies and you've got Terminators of Tzeentch. Thousand Sons are always accompanied by a sorcerer in the new rules. Possessed dreads and cult vehicles are brilliant stuff optically - if anything they make more sense as you can make them look how you want without having to take care of not accidentally depicting some crappy option (like my PLague Carrier Land Raider which I build for its coolness, but never used...).

Gutlord Grom
20-08-2007, 12:54
No worries.. Retinues are a thing of the past now too.. :D

Why?
They're not broken.They actually slow down a character, because he loses his Move through cover rule if he purchases one.

So, again, why?

Mojaco
20-08-2007, 14:49
EASY there, big fella! I never sayd the last codex was heavenly for army composition, but this one could have been so much betther then it is.
Ah well, I guess we have to get used to it, then, its not like our complaining will change anything

That's true. They could have added point costs to the unit pages, for completeness sake. O well, I like it as it is.

Ranhothep
20-08-2007, 16:03
The codex is well written, clear and solves everything that was wrong with CSM.

Now this got me laughing a REAL lot... Care to check Lash of Submission? Abaddon? Mark of Tzeentch on bikers? The first for unclear rules AND the cheese factor. The second for the ridiculous cheese factor and the third for unclear rules again.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. There are many more instances of really, really poorly written rules. So no solving of bad wording and let me assure you, you will beg for the uberequiped demon princes to return in light of Lash of Submission.

Well, I wouldnt know much about Dakka posters, but seeing how so many ppl here jump at the first opportunity to spew their bile on their behalf I fail to see much difference. Heres a thought: maybe its not the forum this type of ppl are posting but its the ppl themselves?

Oh, and most of the renegade chapter names of devilish evil grandeur, doom and evil darkness (did I mention doom?) really ARE ridiculous, especially with some of those paint schemes...:rolleyes:

The review does fail to mention some rules and has its fair share of misinterpretation (YES, i do have an example: bikes arent loosing 1A, since they can use 2 weapons now even when mounted for the same net result) but it also succeeds quite often in pointing out some of the codexes' ridiculous and stupid features.

Vineas
20-08-2007, 18:30
I don't believe the Lash is gonna be all that bad. DP's are monstrous and so therefore can always be targeted. I'm gonna laugh when the DP drags a squad of my FW's out into the open to be shot at by another unit only to take a S10 grapefruit sized round (or 3) to the face at super-sonic speeds during my shooting phase, not to mention the rest of the Tau army lighting his ass up like a xmas tree. "Oh yes Mr. DP, bring yer ass out into the open, I dare you".

As far as him dragging a unit into assault range. Oh well, none of my units are ever less than 7" apart so worst case scenario he butchers one squad and then gets 6" Massacre meaning he is still an inch away from some very high powered, pissed of guns. I know even mathhammer will tell you that it would be statistically impossible to survive 3 broadsides, hammerhead and a skyrays worth of shots + 48 or so pulse guns.

Winged DP? Even more vp's for me. My DA's will also laugh when my libby shuts down that fool DP every game turn, then proceeds to tear him a new one in CC.

It's a trick I guarantee will only work once and then after that it's just free VP's to opponents.

Lord_Crull
20-08-2007, 18:58
Where is the problem? Slap a banner on one of the termies and you've got Terminators of Tzeentch. Thousand Sons are always accompanied by a sorcerer in the new rules. Possessed dreads and cult vehicles are brilliant stuff optically - if anything they make more sense as you can make them look how you want without having to take care of not accidentally depicting some crappy option (like my PLague Carrier Land Raider which I build for its coolness, but never used...).

Where are my Noise Marine Termintoirs with Sonic Blasters? Where are the WE Termies with WS5? Where are the Nurgle Termies with FNP? Where in the world is Carmen Sandiago?

I think you get my point.

Sovereign
20-08-2007, 19:56
Where are my Noise Marine Termintoirs with Sonic Blasters?
Codex: Chaos Emperor's Children, ~2010, $25 Cha-ching!


Where are the WE Termies with WS5?
Codex: Chaos World Eaters, ~2009, $25 Cha-ching!


Where are the Nurgle Termies with FNP?
Codex: Chaos Death Guard, ~2010, $25 Cha-ching!


I think you get my point.
Yup. Codex: Chaos fill-in-the-blank, ~2011, $25 Cha-ching!

Baaltharus
20-08-2007, 20:08
I don't believe the Lash is gonna be all that bad. DP's are monstrous and so therefore can always be targeted. I'm gonna laugh when the DP drags a squad of my FW's out into the open to be shot at by another unit only to take a S10 grapefruit sized round (or 3) to the face at super-sonic speeds during my shooting phase, not to mention the rest of the Tau army lighting his ass up like a xmas tree. "Oh yes Mr. DP, bring yer ass out into the open, I dare you".

As far as him dragging a unit into assault range. Oh well, none of my units are ever less than 7" apart so worst case scenario he butchers one squad and then gets 6" Massacre meaning he is still an inch away from some very high powered, pissed of guns. I know even mathhammer will tell you that it would be statistically impossible to survive 3 broadsides, hammerhead and a skyrays worth of shots + 48 or so pulse guns.

Winged DP? Even more vp's for me. My DA's will also laugh when my libby shuts down that fool DP every game turn, then proceeds to tear him a new one in CC.

It's a trick I guarantee will only work once and then after that it's just free VP's to opponents.

This is really naive or your chaos opponents are very bad. 3 Broadsides and a hammer head are probably only going to 2 wounds to a daemon prince and he'll still be standing there after taking those two strength 10 wounds. You then shoot the rest of your army at him and he goes down. Following turn 20 raptors and the second daemon prince tear into the infantry while obilts and vind smoke vehicles. Hell the CSMs will probably just have to mop up.

Also the one squad he pulls into the open will no doubt be battle suits or another unit he uses to block LoS using that combat, a decent player can find many uses for the lash.

Your DA may laugh at the Slannesh daemon prince but they'll probably be a bit more annoyed when the power gets through more times than not and then even more dismayed when the daemon prince proceeds to cut the librarian in two before he can even attack.

Its a trick which will work far more than once, I CAN guarntee you that.

Poisonpen
20-08-2007, 20:55
Where are my Noise Marine Termintoirs with Sonic Blasters? Call them badass combi-bolters, since it isn't an option anymore nobody should be getting confused.

Where are the WE Termies with WS5?Since when is WS convertible?

Where are the Nurgle Termies with FNP?Since when is FNP convertible?

Where in the world is Carmen Sandiago?Detroit.

I think you get my point.I get your point, I just think it is baseless whining. I play night lords and yes, my converted Kai Gun is no longer existent; yes, my flying retinue is obsolete; yes, I have too many fast-attack choices now; and yes, the few Daemons I DID have (raptors) can't even fly now.

Does it anger me? No. Not at all. In fact, just like my Blood Angels with their new 'book' I like the changes (consequently my sanguinary priest has also been shelved). Why? Because rules do not give a unit character -lovingly converted models give character, cool stories about a units exploits between players give character, well-penned fluff gives character. I don't need some book to tell me my army is hardcore, I know that just by playing the damn game.

Also if you have any decent friends they shouldn't be calling WYSIWYG in a casual game anyway.

Vineas
21-08-2007, 00:31
I still think people over-estimate the Lash prince but seeing as I will not normally be facing one (my gaming buddies don't believe in one-trick rules or armylists) I don't ever have to worry about it and yeah, the HS nerds that play in my town, even if one of them is ambitious enough to convert/make a dp to try that with, suck so bad that it really would be easy vp's to me.

I'm just saying it's not that scary. IWoD isn't all that scary if you know how to counter it and have the units to counter such an army. Hell, Lash prince is nowhere near as broken or sick as the siren prince and I'm sure somebody out there beat those armies.

Remember, unless that one unit/model is so badass it wipes everything off the board odds are good that if everything else in the lash prince army is killed/made non-scoring that player has most likely lost the game so whatever damage the LP did is irrelavant.

dcikgyurt
21-08-2007, 01:36
The lash is all good and well, but iirc it's a shooting attack and therefore can't be used when in HtH, which is where you want a DP to be most of the time. So really, giving your DP lash is a waste of points for what will probably end up being a one use psychic power. It is a far better idea to give him Warp Time (with the Mark of Slaanesh) to maximise you casualties.

Zerosoul
21-08-2007, 02:27
\
Furthermore acheron it's not my review it was taken from Dakka. A black legion or red corsair chapter would indeed have a different conception than the other eight founding legions. I just wish the codex had taken that into account for legion armies and allowed some character or design to go for the legions. For a red corsair or black legion the list would not seem so horrible, for a nightlord, Word bearer or any other legion it seems to be crap.

Yeah, it's horrible for the Night Lords. I mean, not being able to take more than one squad of Raptors? Oh, wait. You still can, and they're cheaper, which solved the number one problem of Night Lords players. Man! Stupid codex!

Word Bearers caught it because the Daemonbomb needed nerfed. If it never flitted through your head that the daemonbomb was going to go away, then, well, there's no hope.

Do I even need to mention Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors? Oh no! No more stupidly underpriced Infiltrate or 9 Obliterators AND pie plates!


Extreme detail about the bad parts, you mean the rest of the dex? His complaints with it are well articulated and backed by the facts.

*snicker*


No +1 attack for being in termie armor:wtf:

Terminators have one more attack than basic Marines. It can be assumed that some Terminator Honors-type thing has been factored into ICs' base statline. Next.


The possessed rules:wtf:

Played a game with them yet? Seen how they perform outside the mystical realm of the Internet? Bet twenty bucks you haven't.

They're close combat beatsticks. It's what they do. There is not some great mystery about how they're used. Every single power on the Daemonkin table either enhances their prowess or ability to get into HtH. To say that "you never know how they're going to be used until they hit the table" is exactly why it's a stupid review. Of course you do. They kill stuff in HtH. They do it pretty well even without power weapons through strength of wounds inflicted. They are worse at killing things than Terminators unless you roll Rending or Power Weapons. They are also fewer points. They are not risk-free. Some games you will roll Scout. Some games you will roll Power Weapons. This is the nature of a random unit. Sometimes they'll be overcosted. Sometimes they'll be undercosted. This makes them unsuitable(in the eyes of some) for tournament play. This is fine, because you can also take Terminators. Not as efficient does not mean that they suck. Simply that people who can't figure out how to use them are being rather silly. Of course I wish they were better, because the models are freaking awesome. But I'll still use mine with the Icon of Tzeentch and be perfectly happy with a sickeningly resilient, relatively cheap unit of objective-grabbers.


the defiler being a cc monster as a joke:wtf: I hear apologists constantly saying the defiler only lost indirect fire... well this guy shows it ain't the case the ws increase and BS decrease really are nuts.

Why are they nuts? Everything the Defiler has or can take are either twin-linked, templates, or ordnance(or CCWs, which is irrelevant for this discussion). It's a relatively cheap unit with a possible 6 Strength 10 attacks on the charge. It's just no longer a poor man's Basilisk. It rewards, gasp, shock, taking risks with it. I understand that hardcore tournament players might turn up their nose at the notion of risk, but I'm happy with mine.


As for the new dex being more fun and having more options I suggest you stop popping prozak like it's candy because the majority of legion players are very unhappy with the new dex.

You have some kind of fact to back this up, don't you? I mean, surely you're not equating the whining on two Internet forums with the "majority" of Legion players being unhappy?


And attacking his review because he's from Dakka is simply childish. It could easily be argued that Dakka tends to be more rosy eyed towards GW than Warseer. Where he posts is hardly relevant to what he writes.

Of course it's relevant. Sites have culture. Dakka's happens to be a toxic wasteland of GW hatred that is perfectly represented by that post.

It's not a perfect codex. There are things I wished they'd done differently(Possessed, while not the hopeless unit people make them out to be, could use some buffing, and Defilers really should be front armour 13). But overall it's a ferociously competitive codex, assuming you're not risk-adverse. This is the problem. People are used to the Chaos codex being both safe and overpowered. They're used to daemon weapons with no real risk(I've lost count of the number of Chaos players who "forgot" Mastery tests). They're used to being able to give your entire army Infiltrate for a point a model or taking 9 S&P heavy weapons along with four indirect pie plates. They're used to an all-infiltrating T5 army or an EC army capable of putting out upwards of 60 bolter shots a turn at 24" range, or Siren daemonbombs, or infiltrating Speed lords with S6. They are, in short, used to a codex that rewards sloppy, one-trick pony lists and forehead-slapping stupid restrictive views of the fluff.

This new codex is not that old Chaos codex. It is a new beast, moreso than the Eldar codex(which essentially rebooted the race). It is much more balanced. It rewards thinking outside the box with composition. And I'm very much good with that.

Chaos is dead. Long live Chaos, baby.

grickherder
21-08-2007, 02:34
Of course it's relevant. Sites have culture. Dakka's happens to be a toxic wasteland of GW hatred that is perfectly represented by that post.

Interesting. I'm going to have to go check that place out :D

I for one am pleased with the new chaos codex and like the general return to 2nd edition style that has been going on (Tyranid Codex, DA, BA, etc.,) and I think this codex fits in that paradigm nicely.

Grimshawl
21-08-2007, 04:50
Interesting. I'm going to have to go check that place out :D

I for one am pleased with the new chaos codex and like the general return to 2nd edition style that has been going on (Tyranid Codex, DA, BA, etc.,) and I think this codex fits in that paradigm nicely.

Its a great place :D I visit regularly ;)

Lord Martel
21-08-2007, 07:21
The idea of two daemon princes in a Chaos army bothers me. There is only room for one top dog in a Chaos army. These guys are not best friends out for a Saturday night of booze and bar fights. They want power, don't like sharing, and are probably more eager to kill each other than the enemy across the field.. Not in keeping with the background at all. Furthermore, Under these rules it sounds like you can have two DP's with opposing marks. The notion of see a Khorne DP with a DP of Tzeentch in the same army is just plain silly. (In a grand champagne like Eye of Terror sure but not on the same field of battle within arms reach)


So GW puts out and excellent set of books on the Horus Heresy, gets everybody that reads it excited about legions, then makes the Chaos codex about recent traitors leaving the legions to be shadows of their former selves. Is it any wonder this company is not preforming well.

This codex shows (yet again) GW's lack of respect for the established player. Many people are going to have miniatures that are worthless or redundant. Other players are going to see this and worry if their purchases or conversions are still going to be legal in the near future, causing apprehension in starting new armies that don't have an ďupdatedĒ codex.

ďThanks for buying all those obliterators, Basilisks, and making really cool conversions that are not legal anymore, now go buy something new you power gaming cheese mongerĒ. This attitude will not make the codex a success.

Occulto
21-08-2007, 08:05
So GW puts out and excellent set of books on the Horus Heresy, gets everybody that reads it excited about legions, then makes the Chaos codex about recent traitors leaving the legions to be shadows of their former selves. Is it any wonder this company is not preforming well.

This codex shows (yet again) GW's lack of respect for the established player. Many people are going to have miniatures that are worthless or redundant. Other players are going to see this and worry if their purchases or conversions are still going to be legal in the near future, causing apprehension in starting new armies that don't have an ďupdatedĒ codex.

ďThanks for buying all those obliterators, Basilisks, and making really cool conversions that are not legal anymore, now go buy something new you power gaming cheese mongerĒ. This attitude will not make the codex a success.

Wait wait wait...

On one hand you're saying the company's not going well, yet you go on to rail against GW's attempts to get their customers to purchase more models?

<i>"Yeah guys. We sold you all those models. um... yeah, guess you don't need any more eh? Whoops! Well, we'd kind of like you to buy some more so we can keep surviving! Why? Um, the thing is, it seems the shareholders are getting a bit p***ed that we're not making enough profit... But you know what? You're right. Let's just keep everything as it is..."</i>

:rolleyes:

Brilliance!

Sir_Turalyon
21-08-2007, 09:19
The idea of two daemon princes in a Chaos army bothers me. There is only room for one top dog in a Chaos army. These guys are not best friends out for a Saturday night of booze and bar fights. They want power, don't like sharing, and are probably more eager to kill each other than the enemy across the field.. Not in keeping with the background at all. Furthermore, Under these rules it sounds like you can have two DP's with opposing marks. The notion of see a Khorne DP with a DP of Tzeentch in the same army is just plain silly. (In a grand champagne like Eye of Terror sure but not on the same field of battle within arms reach)

1. One commands an army, other owns him a favor.
2. They made a bet who will kill more loyalist at end of turn 6 out of eternal boredom.
3. Someone more powerful told them to go together or else



This attitude will not make the codex a success.

It will. It always does :(. *rubs his bretonnian dragon and places it on shelf next to men-at-arms swordsmen and leman russ exterminator*.

You may hope that GW will reintroduce some of dropped models in decade or so, when everybody forgets they existed.

Carlos
21-08-2007, 09:31
I disagree with the above. The book does not laugh in the face of the veteran player as this is without a doubt the one codex in the whole of 40K that offers a wealth of modeling options for weapons, daemons and dedicated units (good luck converting 20 tzeentch raptors!)

I believe it must be players who got into chaos during the last book that are bewildered by the complete loss of all their over powerful rules. If this codex had been the next one on from the 3rd edition codex their would be few complaints.

Mojaco
21-08-2007, 09:52
Now this got me laughing a REAL lot... Care to check Lash of Submission? Abaddon? Mark of Tzeentch on bikers? The first for unclear rules AND the cheese factor. The second for the ridiculous cheese factor and the third for unclear rules again.
Lash sounds interesting, nothing more. I'm not worried. Besides, let him try on 3D6 (runes of warding). And it's only unclear because it's being taken apart for mucho abuse by the community. Move the models should be clear enough, but now people want to break coherecy, force people to move EXACTLY 6 or 12" (don't recall), etc. It's broken because of defective mindsets some people have.

Abaddon? Slow and therefor avoidable. It damn well do something if it manages to reach combat.

Tzeentch on bikes? Clear enough. 2+ inv. Says at the entry that 2+ inv is the maximum you can get, and this is the only way you can do that I think. Otherwise it wouldn't be there.

I won't miss the 7 Heavy Support Iron Warrior, the infitrating lords, the khorne princes of doom, the daemonbombs (although this remains to be seen when codex:daemons hits home) and the Basilisk Defilers.

Ranhothep
21-08-2007, 11:03
Strange how everyone and their grandmother is talking about Lash Princes. There actually IS a sorcerer IC in the book. A mostly untargettable, well hidden IC with lotsa friends waiting for him to pull for them. I DID play a few games with the lash allready, so its not only theoryhammer. Its true that a psy hood or runes of warding can disrupt the power from time to time, but even one success per game at a crucial moment can be a game winner. And as for Tau, IG or Necrons without any Psy power defense... I wish you the very best of luck :rolleyes: A good player with a lash-centered army (many units who can make use of it either by assaulting 1st turn or a lot of plasma rapid fire) will make you rethink how much you like this new codex...

Woodchipper5000
21-08-2007, 12:33
Personally, I feel that the new codex is poor in many regards. Firstly Lords are way more expensive and lose a lot of their options, Daemon princes arent that great either: pricey, and lack of options, you cant give daemon princes daemon weapons any more! There is very few ways to maker a lord stronger then it is, so it cant take out heavy targets. The sorcerer is expensive, however I do like the stats and options for this model. Also you cant make a super cheap hq choice anymore, which can be annoying. Possessed are terrible now! There too expense for a unit that you dont know what you are going to get with them. Chosen.. there ok, I was never made about them. Most of the troops are ok. I find it odd that Khorne bezerkers, for a group of lobotomised, psychopatic warriors, who follow a god that only wants them to kill all, that they are fairlly sane now, unlike the previous codex. Its also odd how there chainaxes have just dissapered. Noise marines arent that great, but then again I never thought that they were that good in the first place. I hate the plague marines now. Which is a shame because I collect a Death Guard army. I think they are bad because they are way too expensive, the blight grenades are poore in this version, the T5 is still not natural i.e. they can be instant killed with S8 or higher weapons, the feel no pain is alright however i cant use it if the plague marines are hit with S8+ attacks or by close combat weapons that ignore armour saves. Also they lose the plague sword.Also they are down to I3 now. In fact the whole codex, I feel, is very anti-nurgle. One example would be Nurgles rot, it now costs 15pts, requires a psychic test and all it does is inflicts a S3 -AP on any enemy models within 6". Woeful. Dreadnoughts ( which can be a favourite with Death gaurd players) are too risky. The fire frenzy in the new codex means that it has the shoot at the nearest squad even if it is a friendly. Which means this will always be the case because Dreadnoughts are generally used as a support to infantry. Also the blood rage is poor: it doesent get to double its attacks. Defilers are not as good in the new codex, for two reasons, 1: the vindicator provides a cheaper means of ordance, in fact you can give the vindicator daemonic possession and a twin linked bolter, and it works out as the same amount of points as an unmodified Defiler. 2: I feel that the defiler is a bit of an oxymoron in the sense that it is trying to be billed as a close combat vehicle, and yet it has battle cannon. I just think that is a bit odd and pointless. I cant use nurglings anymore!!!! They were one of the best things a death guard army can have. Also you can't have mutated hull, one of the best upgrades you can get. Preadators, are not as good, due to points cost now, and lack of mutated hull. Spawn are terrible. 40 points for a model that is slow and purposeful, that has NO armour save of any kind and that has D6 attacks, also they have to chare the closest enemy unit possible. Which means they are going to die quickly (oh, and they too have I3). Obliterators are poore because, they are now 5 points more expensive, lose a point in Strength and Thoughness and they lose the heavy bolter and autocannon, and missile launcher. Albiet they do have plasma cannons and multi-meltas. Also I thought it was terrible in that Alpha legion, Iron warriors, Night Lords and Word Bearers lose ALL of the special skills, abilities, and possabilities. It is also annoying that the codex mainly concentrates on the renegades chapters. Honestly, I am only interested in the nine tratior legions. I dont care for some second rate, Tesco value style legions, with rubbish names like 'the cleaved', or 'warriors of mayhem'. Also I dont like how they are portayed in the codex. In the previous codex they were described like supervillians, with a plot for world domination. Now they are shown to be on par with the orks, with their looting and other trivial behavoir. Also Raptors are worse off, albiet they are cheaper and can take an icon of chaos, they lose the options of taken up to 4 melta guns, now they can only take one. Albiet it is not all bad.... sorcerers, terminators, vindicators, bikes, land raiders are better now. However the greatest thing in the codex now are the thousand sons. THEY ARE AMAZING! 4+ inv. saves, AP3 bolters, and the squad is led by a sorcerer. In fact, everything is made better with the mark of Tzeentch! Independent characters with 4+inv. saves, terminators with 4+ saves, havocs with 5+ inv. saves, and best of all Bikes when they do their turbo boosters they get a 2+ inv. save!! And best of all, in most cases it is not the most expensive mark!(that belongs to the terrible mark of nurgle). In general Tzeentch is they way to go. However the one thing that annoys me about this codex is the fact that it will be hard to make a pure chesse list (due to expensive points cost, and the loss of a lot of upgrades, and the fact that most squads can lose their special abilities if the icon bearer is killed). I know most players, chaos or not, will see this as a good thing, however look at a space marines, Tau and a few other armies, that can build the most ridiculous armies. for example, space marine armies with nothing but bikes; or predators, land speeders and drop pods, or tau where a whole army will consist of 2 devilfish with fire warriors, 3 hammerheads, 4 pirhannas, 2 units of crisis battle suits and a battlesuit commander. Those armies are pure chesse. and guess what, those are the armies that win the grand tournaments. However, they are just my opinions, you can disagree with them if you like. I apologise, if these post is unbelievable long, I just had to give out about the codex.......

Calden
21-08-2007, 12:46
I don't see why you'd think that Plague Marines are terrible, they're damned hard to kill with what amounts to two chances to ignore any wound taken from S7 or less weapons! Yes, they are vulnerable to S8 and power weapons, but thats what you use other units from the codex to combat.

Also I hardly see how the Icon of Nurgle is useless compared to the Icon of Tzeentch. If you have cover on the board and you are playing a shooty army, then the Icon of Nurgle is far better in most situations. Assault units have a more difficult choice though of course.

As for complaining that the codex can't be used to make a pure cheese list....well I'm lost for words.

Lastie
21-08-2007, 13:03
Woodchipper5000; paragraphs are your friends. ;)

Anardakil
21-08-2007, 13:12
Woodchipper5000, you expect someone to read that?

Damn that review that Belisarius posted was probably written by a flagellant.

I kinda like the codex, although I havent played with it yet. There could have been a few more options for lords but what the heck.

Baaltharus
21-08-2007, 14:01
The idea of two daemon princes in a Chaos army bothers me. There is only room for one top dog in a Chaos army. These guys are not best friends out for a Saturday night of booze and bar fights. They want power, don't like sharing, and are probably more eager to kill each other than the enemy across the field.. Not in keeping with the background at all. Furthermore, Under these rules it sounds like you can have two DP's with opposing marks. The notion of see a Khorne DP with a DP of Tzeentch in the same army is just plain silly. (In a grand champagne like Eye of Terror sure but not on the same field of battle within arms reach)





I don't necasserally agree with your GW bashing but I do find the idea of someone using 2 daemon princes in an army ridiculous. Its a one dog show not a happy little tag team.

Grimshawl
21-08-2007, 14:08
The idea of two daemon princes in a Chaos army bothers me. There is only room for one top dog in a Chaos army. These guys are not best friends out for a Saturday night of booze and bar fights. They want power, don't like sharing, and are probably more eager to kill each other than the enemy across the field.. Not in keeping with the background at all. Furthermore, Under these rules it sounds like you can have two DP's with opposing marks. The notion of see a Khorne DP with a DP of Tzeentch in the same army is just plain silly. (In a grand champagne like Eye of Terror sure but not on the same field of battle within arms reach)


So GW puts out and excellent set of books on the Horus Heresy, gets everybody that reads it excited about legions, then makes the Chaos codex about recent traitors leaving the legions to be shadows of their former selves. Is it any wonder this company is not preforming well.

This codex shows (yet again) GW's lack of respect for the established player. Many people are going to have miniatures that are worthless or redundant. Other players are going to see this and worry if their purchases or conversions are still going to be legal in the near future, causing apprehension in starting new armies that don't have an ďupdatedĒ codex.

ďThanks for buying all those obliterators, Basilisks, and making really cool conversions that are not legal anymore, now go buy something new you power gaming cheese mongerĒ. This attitude will not make the codex a success.
COULDNT AGREE MORE.
Seriously the whole all generic daemons and all the factions of chaos just skipping hand in hand because their all just friends flies right in the face of everything GW have ever written, it is just a slap in the face of established Chaos players, and how some people can claim that generic daemons are just the greatest Evah!!! because they open up modelling possibilities is just sheer hogwash, you could have used counts as for your specific daemons at any time just as much as you can with the new generics, so where is the improvement?

Fourth
21-08-2007, 14:15
Sites have culture. Dakka's happens to be a toxic wasteland of GW hatred that is perfectly represented by that post.

For the record, that's precisely as true as Dakka's opinion of Warseer.

Guys, we know the forums hate eachother. We get it. (Though we aren't sure why, since it's mostly the same people saying mostly the same things).

(pardon the use of the royal "we")

(And, while we're on the topic, please note the use of paragraph breaks. Aren't they both esthetically pleasing and easier to read? Lookee.)

Cacodemon
21-08-2007, 14:21
However the one thing that annoys me about this codex is the fact that it will be hard to make a pure chesse list (due to expensive points cost, and the loss of a lot of upgrades, and the fact that most squads can lose their special abilities if the icon bearer is killed).

I think that this summarizes the feelings of those Chaos players that moan about the new Codex. It's not about losing choices, its about losing the no-brainer winning choices. There's no-one coming to take your models away, and 95% of them are usable under the new Codex even though whiners would like to make everyone believe that's not the case.

Zerosoul
21-08-2007, 15:36
For the record, that's precisely as true as Dakka's opinion of Warseer.

Guys, we know the forums hate eachother. We get it. (Though we aren't sure why, since it's mostly the same people saying mostly the same things).

(pardon the use of the royal "we")

(And, while we're on the topic, please note the use of paragraph breaks. Aren't they both esthetically pleasing and easier to read? Lookee.)

The difference is that my statement is true, whereas Dakka's opinion of Warseer as some kind of hotbed of GW fanboyism comes from magical pixies. This is the only conclusion I can come to, since I don't think any reasonable person can honestly look at this forum and see any significant amount of fanboyism, whereas any given survey of Dakka will reveal a bunch of grumpy groaning grognards (alliteration is fun!) who meet any given change to...well...anything with frothing indignation. I would go get specific examples, except work's about to start and so I'm out of time. I'm honestly not trying to kick off(or contribute to) a site war here, and this is my last statement on the topic in this thread. Just saying that to not see the culture at Dakka is a wee bit anti-GW is kind of blind.

Lord Balian
21-08-2007, 15:54
OK I've read through this codex and in general I'm pleased enough with it. I did notice though that the bikers no longer read 2 attacks anymore. They used to say something like they were covered in spikes and things, and it gave them an extra attack.
But I did notice that they are equiped with both a bolt pistol and a CCW. So my question is this. Can we assume, by RAW, that the bikers have an extra attack because they have a pistol and CCW. Or do we have to go with logic and say that they can't hold both of those at the same time and steer the bike so extra attack.

What would be consensus on this? Personally I say they have the extra attack for having both pistol and CCW. So unless you swap out one of them for a special weapon(unlike before where it replaced the bikes weapon) then the biker has 2 attacks.

Democratus
21-08-2007, 17:36
Logic has no place in GW rules. :) All models with CCW and Bolt Pistol will get an additional attack in combat. There aren't any rules prohibiting this from applying to bikes.

Deafwing
21-08-2007, 17:59
I'm really torn about what I hear about this codex...

On the positive side, I won't hear complaints that my Iron Warrior army must be cheese just because its Iron Warriors. A lot of useless options were removed and Dreadnoughts are an Elites...yay. My Worldeater terminators are cheaper, so while I'll continue to field them, I might be able to field other stuff too. I'll also be able to actually control my Worldeaters rather just winding 'em up and watching 'em go.

On the negative, my Worldeaters lost their chainaxes (why?), my Iron Warriors now have no Basilisk (again, why?) and I'll have to hope that I can fit some heavy weapons into Chosen or regular CSM squads. I'm also disappointed that the Defiler didn't get any armour upgrade despite having to sit in the open now to use its guns or cross the field to get into melee.

I don't like generic daemons, mostly because of the fact that I got used to a brutish Bloodletter would have different abilities from a lithe, nimble Daemonette. Also the Bloodthirster loosing its flight ability? Huh?

Finally, the raptors loosing hit and run ultimately sucks for my Iron Warriors, but being able to use them in my Worldeaters almost makes up for it. I used to use them as a good way of slowing down units that got too close (similar to what those Seraphim harpies can do! damn them!). I'm sure they'll stay, though I don't recall if the AC can still have lightning claws...

Overall, I think I have one or two models invalidated with the new codex and some that need a rethink. I really need to read the codex closely to see how my Iron Warriors change but I *think* that my Worldeaters list is mainly the same, just with some rhinos and maybe a predator added (glad I had the forsight to be able to use them as Marine or Chaos rhinos, whew).

Deafwing.

Fourth
21-08-2007, 18:03
I think that this summarizes the feelings of those Chaos players that moan about the new Codex. It's not about losing choices, its about losing the no-brainer winning choices.

People desperately need to stop saying this.

It wasn't true the first time, it hasn't gotten more true since.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually don't play just to win.

I find it amazing that apparently very few people can conceive of not liking a new codex for any reasons other than power. Implies something, doesn't it?

I'll say this again. Making every Chaos bolter AP3 and giving every CSM lightning claws wouldn't have made any of us like this codex more. Making the Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince Str10 and T10 wouldn't have made us like this codex more.

Lash of Submission doesn't make us happy. (And the tenth time your Space Marines wander into this nice little flamer-template-shaped formation right in front of an AP3 Doom Siren, it won't make you happy, either.)

I'm using "you" in the generic sense here, Cacodemon, not meaning to pick on ya specifically.

And please note that I use "us" above to mean that group of players who aren't thrilled about the new codex. There are plenty of reasons why. I won't go into them here. Everyone reading this knows several of them.

"Us," above, specifically exempts those who are unhappy with the new codex purely because they want Siren, infiltrating Speedlords, and four pie plates. I'm sure there are some of those people. They'd probably have been thrilled if everything went to AP3 and every stat for the Daemon Prince was ten.


The difference is that my statement is true, whereas Dakka's opinion of Warseer as some kind of hotbed of GW fanboyism comes from magical pixies. This is the only conclusion I can come to, since I don't think any reasonable person can honestly look at this forum and see any significant amount of fanboyism,

Right. Your opinion is fact, everyone else's is just an opinion. If I say that I agree completely, except I think my opinion is a fact, and yours is just an opinion, do you see where I'm coming from?

(Apologies; that looks a little harsher in print than it's supposed to.)


whereas any given survey of Dakka will reveal a bunch of grumpy groaning grognards (alliteration is fun!) who meet any given change to...well...anything with frothing indignation. I would go get specific examples, except work's about to start and so I'm out of time. I'm honestly not trying to kick off(or contribute to) a site war here, and this is my last statement on the topic in this thread. Just saying that to not see the culture at Dakka is a wee bit anti-GW is kind of blind.

Yes. Like I said, Warseer's opinion of Dakka is about as true as the reverse. Dakka is a wee bit anti-GW. Warseer is a wee-bit pro-GW. And if even 51% (whatever the particular percentage is) of the posters on a site have a different opinion than you (remember, one's own opinion is a self-evident fact, not just an opinion) means they are HERETICS and must be BURNED, I'm sure.

Both forums seem to agree on that much, at least.


Man, this is long. Stopping now.

Lord Balian
21-08-2007, 18:12
Logic has no place in GW rules. :) All models with CCW and Bolt Pistol will get an additional attack in combat. There aren't any rules prohibiting this from applying to bikes.

That's what I was thinking. Can anyone confirm or deny that in the BGB there is nothing regarding this in the bikes section? I guess I'll have to dig it up tonight and read through the bike section to make sure.
I compare this to the new Ravenwing bikers. Their wargear states "bolt pistol OR a CCW". Where as the chaos bikers says "bolt pistol AND CCW". The Ravenwing bikes only get 1 attack, minus the SGT, who can ADD a CCW with his pistol to get an extra attack.

Joah_from_Alberta
21-08-2007, 19:05
I happen to agree with what Belisarius has communicated and I congratulate him for his courage in bringing us his review on GW latest work. I will NOT be purchasing the new chaos codex as I would rather be paying for a more credible work. btw, was there any mention of playtesters in the credits??? I want to know, because even the games you get out of a cereal box will give credit to playtesters.

Is this what kind of world you people want?! Are you just willing to swallow whatever is shoveled from the top?! Belisarius has every right to be upset about this new book and the direction it has taken his investment. Gentlemen, you have one life to live, don't wait for the world to melt, think on your father's accomplishments and remember that this is your time. How much will it take before your interests are protected? When will be the day that we can file a class action lawsuit when publishers insult our intelligence with poorly written rulebooks that place a mandate ("he shall") upon our playing pieces. I will mention it again, Tolkien believed that you should always challenge your children with a greater vocabulary. I congratulate you Belisarius and know this: I will stand by your integrity: disallow your passion to suffer anger, be comforted in your provisional wisdom and die on your feet.

Anardakil
21-08-2007, 19:21
Raptors being 20 pts now is great since they were horribly overpriced before. Visage was almost useless since half of the races seem to be fearless anyway and I can live without hit and run ^^

grizzly ruin
21-08-2007, 19:22
The difference is that my statement is true, whereas Dakka's opinion of Warseer as some kind of hotbed of GW fanboyism comes from magical pixies. This is the only conclusion I can come to, since I don't think any reasonable person can honestly look at this forum and see any significant amount of fanboyism, whereas any given survey of Dakka will reveal a bunch of grumpy groaning grognards (alliteration is fun!) who meet any given change to...well...anything with frothing indignation. I would go get specific examples, except work's about to start and so I'm out of time. I'm honestly not trying to kick off(or contribute to) a site war here, and this is my last statement on the topic in this thread. Just saying that to not see the culture at Dakka is a wee bit anti-GW is kind of blind.

Pot, meet kettle.

Unfortunately no.

I have found that even to attempt to profess dissent about new codices, new rules or the like here at Warseer, will find said poster being shouted down immediately by a gaggle of people who use constant strawman attacks and could care less if your post is being constructive or otherwise.

You are instantly labeled as a whiner, and the anti-whiner whiners begin high fiving themselves in the thread for how cool they are for charging at you like a pack of rabid lemmings.

God forbid you should actually dislike the decisons games designers make.




People desperately need to stop saying this.

It wasn't true the first time, it hasn't gotten more true since.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually don't play just to win.

I find it amazing that apparently very few people can conceive of not liking a new codex for any reasons other than power. Implies something, doesn't it?

I'll say this again. Making every Chaos bolter AP3 and giving every CSM lightning claws wouldn't have made any of us like this codex more. Making the Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince Str10 and T10 wouldn't have made us like this codex more.

Lash of Submission doesn't make us happy. (And the tenth time your Space Marines wander into this nice little flamer-template-shaped formation right in front of an AP3 Doom Siren, it won't make you happy, either.)

Quoted

For

Truth




And please note that I use "us" above to mean that group of players who aren't thrilled about the new codex. There are plenty of reasons why. I won't go into them here. Everyone reading this knows several of them.

No Fourth.

There are absolutely no rational reasons for you to dislike even a single sentence in the new Chaos Codex. Much less an entire rule or unit.

UltimateNagash
21-08-2007, 20:11
OK, I got the Codex, and by briefly looking through it, I can see only a few teeny tiny problems with it. And they're such niggles as the Havok Launcher not being 2 shots, Dreads being slightly harder to use etc.
But I think it's a good Codex, and GW are doing better with each new one. They're correcting the mistakes of the early 4th ed ones, and completely removing the problems of the 3rd edition. So well done to Mr Gav Thorpe and Mr Alessio Cavatore!

Lord Balian
21-08-2007, 20:22
@ Joah. Good luck with that class action. No one is forcing us to play "their" game. We bought and built models so we could play "their" game, not our game.

Now, don't get me wrong, I was very unhappy with one major part of the codex. I just got done making/converting an entire Fallen Angels theme army, using Alpha Legion rules, and also a standard chaos Alpha Legion army. To go with those armies I converted, since GW doesn't make them, 60 cultists. This was a lot of money spent on models and bits, and lots of time to make them. Now, for all intensive purposes cultists are no more, and my army designed around everything infiltrating, is no more.

Now what is an option for me, that I have conceeded in trying, is to use the rules for lesser demons for my cultists. This is a viable solution to continue using those models, for me. Also, even though my AL armies are geared for assault and infiltrating, all my marines are equiped with pistols, ccw, and bolters, and grenades. Making them much more flexable. So I might need to learn how to play the army all over again and find how to use what I have.

The other minor part of the codex I'm upset about is the change in demons. For my original army, undevided, I have a unit of bloodletters, flamers and horrors. I loved the tactical differences in these demon types and how they were different rules and models etc. Now all I can get is lesser demons with the same rules. So now, I either use my cool looking different models as lesser demons, or I shelve them. Kind of annoying.

But I realized I can adapt my armies and how I play them, or forget chaos and play something else all together, or just stop playing GW games. For now, I'm happy adapting and continueing to play a game that is fun for me in the bigger picture of all that is games.

Lord Martel
21-08-2007, 20:27
Wait wait wait...

On one hand you're saying the company's not going well, yet you go on to rail against GW's attempts to get their customers to purchase more models?

<i>"Yeah guys. We sold you all those models. um... yeah, guess you don't need any more eh? Whoops! Well, we'd kind of like you to buy some more so we can keep surviving! Why? Um, the thing is, it seems the shareholders are getting a bit p***ed that we're not making enough profit... But you know what? You're right. Let's just keep everything as it is..."</i>

:rolleyes:

Brilliance!

Yes I may have had all the models I needed to play my chaos army. GW changed rules and invalidated miniatures for no other reason than to force people into buying new models. This is unethical and in the long run bad business.

For example I have Sisters of Battle and Grey Knight armies just waiting to be rounded out. Yet when I see the treatment DA, BA and Chaos got I am unwilling to spend money on miniatures, or make conversions that may be obsolete in two or three years.

If GW wants to sell me more Chaos miniatures then they could try and make some new units.

Gasp........... do I dare suggest that GW comes up with something new, something fresh, something that might imply that the design team has some creative energy left. They either do not have the creative ability to make an exciting new codex, or GW HQ will not allocate the time and resources necessary to support new units and miniatures for an existing system.

In either case this codex is creatively bankrupt. I seriously hope that codex daemons has some quality and doesn't end up re releasing the current daemons in a new $25 dollar supplement.

kane40k
21-08-2007, 22:14
i like the deamon entrys, it meens i can make my own malal deamons! with lots of eyes :D! some people are so easily ammused!

and i might toy with that slaaneshi icon too..... along with the already pwerfull noismarines ... woot!

knock down the walls baby!

Spider
21-08-2007, 22:31
So, in short i can look forward to the new "improved" chaos army list that has none of the flavour of the old one (note:flavour and power are to different things..and chaos is all about the flavour).

And in a few years time there will be a chaos-redux with a statement from Gav (or whoever) saying "We went to far with the simplification last time...people want their chaos armies to be "Chaosy".

Or i can stick with current rules that are fun, allow me use the models that i have spent my money on in the manner intended and stuff GW.

"Current" rules it is for me.

My Death Guard will be marching units of 7 and being rewarded appropriatley dammit!

Seriously, after 20 years of playing this game life gets much easier when a/ yoy don't play in tourneys or clubs and only play with freinds and b/ you realise that limiting the money gw gets from my hobby and their disregard for customers (me!) is as much of a pleasure as any other part of the hobby.

Sovereign
21-08-2007, 22:40
People desperately need to stop saying this.

Right. Your opinion is fact, everyone else's is just an opinion.
Except, he'e right on both accounts:

- The Chaos whining *is* only coming from lazy powergamers who lost their no-brainer freebies, and

- Dakka *is* a just bunch GW-haters.

:evilgrin:

Trolond
21-08-2007, 22:42
The changes have, in my opinion, made Thousand Sons far better.

Yes, of course, we're still better duh :-P. Then again, I'm going to miss my precious sorcery no-psychic-tests ability. :( All those years of studying ancient tomes... FOR WASTE! I knew school was useless /sigh.



I like the fact that the Marks of Chaos have been streamlined - the rules for them seem alot simpler, even if this has meant they have lost some rules along the way.


Yes yes, simpler, of course. You, Nurgle, you get +1T. You, Slaanesh, you get +1A or I or w.e it is. You, Khorne, you get +1A or +1S or w.e. And you, hmm, Tzeentch, you get... well. You get a 4+ invulnerable save, but if you already HAVE an invulnerable save you get it at a 1+ bonus. Yes, simpler, MUAA HAHAHAHAHAH. :eyebrows:

I'm waiting for that day that some new player is like "Zomg I'm gonna have the best undivided bikers ever! They have all the marks! 4+ Invul, T6, #A #S and ___________. They shall own all!"

A lot of people are just complaining because, like my personal opinions, it disallows uncommon army lists that may not win a lot, but are fun to play with. (Like mine... lol) And although TSs got a ton better, we lost our precious, precious 2 wounds that mean oh-so-much, i mean, it is kinda hard to kill dust... you ever tried hunting a dust bunny? They are elusive lil critters.

Not all that much to complain about now, it was mainly the shock of the first "Zomg I have a copy of the new codex and there are no more rubrics or true grit!!!!!!!!!!!! OR Bloodletters! zomg!" that people were freaking out over.

loveless
22-08-2007, 01:49
I don't necasserally agree with your GW bashing but I do find the idea of someone using 2 daemon princes in an army ridiculous. Its a one dog show not a happy little tag team.

I'm going to give a thought on 2 Daemon Princes just like I did back when the first rumour of being able to take 2 came out:

Why couldn't the Chaos gods favor an exceptionally skilled warrior with two bodies under control of one mind?

sebster
22-08-2007, 02:16
Is this what kind of world you people want?! Are you just willing to swallow whatever is shoveled from the top?! Belisarius has every right to be upset about this new book and the direction it has taken his investment. Gentlemen, you have one life to live, don't wait for the world to melt, think on your father's accomplishments and remember that this is your time. How much will it take before your interests are protected? When will be the day that we can file a class action lawsuit when publishers insult our intelligence with poorly written rulebooks that place a mandate ("he shall") upon our playing pieces. I will mention it again, Tolkien believed that you should always challenge your children with a greater vocabulary. I congratulate you Belisarius and know this: I will stand by your integrity: disallow your passion to suffer anger, be comforted in your provisional wisdom and die on your feet.

And they make take our lives, but they will never take OUR FREEDOM!!!


Joah, mate, itís good that youíre passionate, but you might want to channel your energies into something a little more substantial than a miniatures game. Because thatís all this is, painting miniatures and then pretending theyíre fighting each other.

You seem to have made the assumption that the reason most of us arenít scaling the walls of GW HQ and throwing down their oppressive codex re-releasing regime is out of fear, or a lack of belief that we can really make a difference. Truth is, weíre not afraid, we just donít want to make a difference because we think the new codex is an improvement on the old. But you go off and fight the good fight, the rest of us will stay back here and paint miniatures and pretend theyíre fighting each other.

Occulto
22-08-2007, 02:34
Yes I may have had all the models I needed to play my chaos army. GW changed rules and invalidated miniatures for no other reason than to force people into buying new models. This is unethical and in the long run bad business.

Let's turn that around. How is it good business to voluntarily choose any course of action that'll ultimately reduce demand for your own product? That's called commercial suicide.

Most companies do it. It's how they continue to sell the same stuff over and over to people. I believe the term for it is "planned obsolesence" - Microsoft don't offer support for Windows 3.11 or DOS anymore, do they?

You may think it makes them an evil empire, but GW are just a business trying to find ways of stimulating demand.


For example I have Sisters of Battle and Grey Knight armies just waiting to be rounded out. Yet when I see the treatment DA, BA and Chaos got I am unwilling to spend money on miniatures, or make conversions that may be obsolete in two or three years.

It's par for the course. This codex isn't the first time that GW have done this, and it'll certainly not be the last. If you're fearful that your armies will be unusable in 3 years time, I'd suggest selling them and start a new hobby. It seems to be the one constant in this hobby.

Rogue Trader to 2nd Ed, 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed, 3rd Ed to 4th Ed... pretty much every system, update and revision has entailed people losing the ability to use certain models. In some cases, said models have returned to the fold. For instance, I have CSM with heavy weapons painted in Nurgle colours. I can now use them again.

Add them to the pile of minatures that now have a new lease of life on them because of this codex. My raptors and terminators immediately spring to mind.


If GW wants to sell me more Chaos miniatures then they could try and make some new units.

Um... they have. I keep reading people say: "wicked, I can now take Raptors in my Nurgle army" or "My Tzeentch will now include some bikes." Marked "lite" units are new and people are already thinking of new conversions, new tactics and ways to freshen their existing armies.

There's a lot more people out there than fluff purists who are complaining about everything that's been lost and refusing to use anything that's new, because it didn't appear in the last codex's "fluff".


Gasp........... do I dare suggest that GW comes up with something new, something fresh, something that might imply that the design team has some creative energy left. They either do not have the creative ability to make an exciting new codex, or GW HQ will not allocate the time and resources necessary to support new units and miniatures for an existing system.

Hmmm...

Let's see. Maybe there are physical constraints to the size of the codices that GW can produce. Maybe they feel that instead of cramming every little Chaos unit into one codex (kinda like v3.5) they'll spread them out over several codices to do them proper justice. Maybe they're looking at the success of the WHFB system where multiple books complement each other perfectly well. Maybe they'd prefer to start tightening up balance rather than adding more and more units just for the sake of it.

Who knows?

The problem with adding new units every time is that eventually you start really scraping the bottom of the barrel for new battlefield roles or just create five units to do the same thing.

Take Eldar for example. There's references to different Aspects in the fluff, but they still haven't released rules for the Slicing Orbs of Zandros have they? Why not? Because there's no battlefield niche that isn't filled by the other aspects and which doesn't go against the ethos of the Eldar.

Heavy CCW troops - Scorpions
Light CCW troops - Banshees
Tank Hunters - Fire Dragons
Fast Tank Hunters - Shining Spears
Jump Packs - Warp Spiders
Fire Support - Dire Avengers
Heavy Fire Support - Dark Reapers

Even now people are saying Banshees aren't worth their points because Harlequins do the same job better. So what new role could they cover that hasn't already been covered?

Armies still need to be unique. Yes Tau could have a dedicated close combat unit, but the Tau aren't about combat, they've got big guns to ensure they destroy enemies at range. Making up for one deficiency in a list can remove a weakness that's defines an army's character.


In either case this codex is creatively bankrupt. I seriously hope that codex daemons has some quality and doesn't end up re releasing the current daemons in a new $25 dollar supplement.

Well there's always Warmachine if you think it truly sucks. ;)

UberBeast
22-08-2007, 03:02
Now why would they drop plague marines I to 3 and give thousand sons I 4? Dropping from 4 to 3 is huge. They strike last against all space marines and simultaneous against guard. That's a rather unfluffy and nasty way of balancing something that is in no way as good as the new thousand sons which then get their I boosted?

That and no deamonic possesion for dreadnoughts sucks. Other than that I'm interested in some of the other aspects of the book. Also is it me or does Slaanesh have the best psychic power and deamon weapon?

Sovereign
22-08-2007, 03:10
Take Eldar for example. There's references to different Aspects in the fluff, but they still haven't released rules for the Slicing Orbs of Zandros have they? Why not? Because there's no battlefield niche that isn't filled by the other aspects and which doesn't go against the ethos of the Eldar.
Um, the Eldar situation is far worse than what you gave when you break out *all* the specialists:

V.Hvy CCW troops - Wraithguard
Heavy CCW troops - Scorpions
Light CCW troops - Banshees
V.Light CCW troops - Harlequins

Basic Fire Support - Dire Avengers
Anti-Tank Support - Fire Dragons
Sniper Fire Support - Rangers

V.Hvy Fast Tank Hunters - Shining Spears
V.Hvy Fast Fire Support - Jetbikes
Heavy Jump troops - Warp Spiders
Light Jump Support - Swooping Hawks
Heavy Fire Support - Dark Reapers

As it is, it's quite difficult to clearly separate the Eldar Jetbike and Jump Pack options from each other.

Chaos has a similar problem with 10 flavors of infantry (CSM, 4 Marked CSM, 4 Cult CSM, Chosen), not to mention Bikes and Jump Troops...

RTB01
22-08-2007, 03:18
The desire for people to take a core of troops is failing in this codex as the cult troops aren't that desirable and due to weapon restrictions people may well take minimum troops so as to maximise on more desirable choices elsewhere. The attempt to balance is in fact a fallacy and has not happened. This book is more abusable than the last and less fluffy in army creation. Armies on the whole will be smaller and less useable as far as i am concerned and haven't been this gutted with a new codex since the first 3rd edition codex came out and i actually stopped playing chaos for several years because i was so deeply unsatisfied

RTB01
22-08-2007, 03:21
Let's turn that around. How is it good business to voluntarily choose any course of action that'll ultimately reduce demand for your own product? That's called commercial suicide.

Most companies do it. It's how they continue to sell the same stuff over and over to people. GW are just a business trying to find ways of stimulating demand.


is it not commercial suicide to shaft an awful lot of gamers? Not only chaos players, but orks have been left in the dark for a decade yet GW think it necessary to release apocalypse first - wonderful business acumen. They are simply not catering for their vet gamers as they used to, sales levels have dropped drastically in the past few years and they wonder why.

Hellebore
22-08-2007, 03:48
is it not commercial suicide to shaft an awful lot of gamers? Not only chaos players, but orks have been left in the dark for a decade yet GW think it necessary to release apocalypse first - wonderful business acumen. They are simply not catering for their vet gamers as they used to, sales levels have dropped drastically in the past few years and they wonder why.

Not really, because every single one of us has or will bitch and moan about something.

There will NEVER be a time when EVERYONE is 100% in positive agreement.

Take some supposed price reductions that were rumoured to be forthcoming. THAT of all things had people complaining. Complaining that it would devalue GW product and be a negative thing over all:wtf:

It doesn't matter what it is, who said it, or why it was done; every single person here will complain about SOMETHING in the lifetime.

It comes back to the fan demand economics. Fans (ideally) want everything to be:

Free
Perfect
Now

As soon as those ideals are not met, there is whinging.

There will always be whinging. How much that whinging actually affects the bottom line is another matter. GW will do what they can to make sure that the bottom line is preserved.

Just because you or another fan dislike something doesn't mean another will, so if they can get away with it they will.

Hellebore

theluc
22-08-2007, 03:54
well like many players, the book was a great disappointment. ill keep the 3rd codex also and keep great gaming

guys if you want to play loyal space marines well u got 3 codex now for 4th ed

:P

sebster
22-08-2007, 03:54
The desire for people to take a core of troops is failing in this codex as the cult troops aren't that desirable and due to weapon restrictions people may well take minimum troops so as to maximise on more desirable choices elsewhere. The attempt to balance is in fact a fallacy and has not happened.

Taking a small unit of troops in order to gain access to a heavy weapon was never taking troops. It was taking havocs lite, to add to your havocs, to add to your static gun line oí tedium. The new CSM trooper has had his capabilities increased considerably, being given a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW and a full suite of grenades, while having a tighter restriction placed on the heavy weapons they can take. This means the value of a unit of CSM is in the CSM marines themselves, as a versatile unit effective in ranged combat and melee. It means your troop choices are no longer a lascannon plus 4 or 5 guys watching and getting in the way of incoming fire.

That alone is cause enough to be happy with the new codex.

Master Bait
22-08-2007, 03:57
Is this what kind of world you people want?! Are you just willing to swallow whatever is shoveled from the top?! Belisarius has every right to be upset about this new book and the direction it has taken his investment. Gentlemen, you have one life to live, don't wait for the world to melt, think on your father's accomplishments and remember that this is your time. How much will it take before your interests are protected? When will be the day that we can file a class action lawsuit when publishers insult our intelligence with poorly written rulebooks that place a mandate ("he shall") upon our playing pieces. I will mention it again, Tolkien believed that you should always challenge your children with a greater vocabulary. I congratulate you Belisarius and know this: I will stand by your integrity: disallow your passion to suffer anger, be comforted in your provisional wisdom and die on your feet.

dude, this is a hobby and game, not global warming

are you this dramatic when you order your burgers? guh :wtf:

sebster
22-08-2007, 04:07
Not really, because every single one of us has or will bitch and moan about something.

There will NEVER be a time when EVERYONE is 100% in positive agreement.

Thereís also something of myth about fan dissatisfaction. It certainly exists, the myth is that it is something new. Iíve been a GW customer since the early 90s, and there was plenty of customers and ex-customers then that hated GW, and there has been right up to the present. Most of them spent a year or so in this bitter stage before heading off for other games, or maybe left gaming altogether. Some returned to GW down the track, finding all games had their problems but at least GW games have players.

Point is, whatever someoneís issue with GW may be, more often than not they assume the company is doomed because theyíre not getting what they want out of the hobby. Some people threatening to leave the hobby because GW made changes to the most complained about codex in the game is really, deeply irrelevant to the future of the company.

theluc
22-08-2007, 04:35
well some unit got better some others are broken. the real trouble is that chaos is standard like too much like a regular army is, that not very chaos like
the modeling possibilities are also greatly reduce.. legion specifics stuff is also gone.. the best trooper in the game just got better so what ??? well check out those mix and match power gamers list pops out..so bad

when i read it i was thinking of the over all and all legions or cult ... in the end variety got hurt allot and tactically well the rhino wall gonna be very popular just like 2nd ED and deep strike gonna see more use like never before plus the fact that with the icons there wont be scattering anymore

well even the dark angel 4th ed codex ain't as power gaming so much compared to the new chaos one

anyways like it or not but its these your free to buy it or leave it....

second option is my choice , i gave enough of my cash to GW i got so much painting to do anyways lol

lemiwinks
22-08-2007, 04:42
Wow
i only read this thread to find out about the codex.
and the author did a really good job.
nothing is ever perfect. and people need to get over that. I have been playing for a while. I honestly got bored playing chaos. they were too good. sure there are a lot of other armies who are just as good. but none are so diverse. chaos could change to beat any army. Im actually happy that chaos has been toned down a little. It makes people who play to think and expand their minds instead of just playing to win. sure winning is great. but its not everything. and about people saying this doesnt fit the fluff... would you rather hear about the same fluff copied and pasted or maybe re worded? Or would you liek to here about a whole new side of chaos. I think its awesome that every cult can fight along side each other. Also they have in no way made any models un usable. Im pretty sure no one at GW told you which color scheme to paint your army. Im in utter amazement how people can get so worked up over a book. its a book. and the only thing it affects is a expensive game of army men but with more rules then " bang i shot you first" this game is for adults... lets act like it.

Occulto
22-08-2007, 04:46
is it not commercial suicide to shaft an awful lot of gamers? Not only chaos players, but orks have been left in the dark for a decade yet GW think it necessary to release apocalypse first - wonderful business acumen.

I disagree with the "shaft an awful lot of gamers" - particularly when the majority of Chaos gamers have been let off relatively lightly.

The way some people are talking, you'd think that Chaos got the Squat treatment. :rolleyes:

Quite simply, they haven't. Some options are being lost (I'm not arguing with that - EC and AL players take note). However, not wanting to field a model because the rules aren't what they used to be is something completely different.

Too many people are complaining about the latter, which just make them sound like whining little +++CENSORED+++. To anyone who's ever been on the receiving end of some of the more overpowered combinations, it's getting very hard to feel sympathetic - and I've got a Chaos army that's had numerous units/options added and removed over the years.

Now Orks are slated for release next year. I'm not going to defend GW to the hilt because I think it's shameful that one of the major races has been neglected for so long. Ditto Dark Eldar. It's a credit to the Ork players that I know, that they've stuck out for so long and done their own thing when GW hasn't stepped up to the plate with new models.

Having sunk the boot in, I still think Apocalypse will be an interesting litmus test. There are a lot of people looking forward to this supplement. Will it sell more than an entire army release? Who knows?


They are simply not catering for their vet gamers as they used to, sales levels have dropped drastically in the past few years and they wonder why.

And there are a lot more reasons for that than just GW's release schedule.

Ebay? 2nd Hand forums? Why buy at GW when you can search online and buy something comparable for less?

Saturation of the market? How many people just don't need to buy another model without GW revising the codex rules? If I look round my gaming group, if I want to play another race, I can borrow an army from one of my mates. So I get variety without the financial outlay.

Alternatives? How many people, who traditionally would've started another GW army, are now branching out into different systems? So if I get bored, instead of buying an Eldar army, I buy a Flames of War army.

Reducing it down to the statement that "GW doesn't care about vets" is overly simplistic.

theluc
22-08-2007, 05:21
just finished a re-write of the codex .. well for a first im pretty proud
ive manage to put every legion fluff and even new or not so new stuff in my
home grown. with all the controversy around that codex ( even the new dark angel codex did not have that effect ) was inspiring to adjust and try to balance
why buy when you can do your own

itcamefromthedeep
22-08-2007, 05:42
Generic demons are an awesome idea: let them have their own codex. There will be a delay. You will get over it when they come out with plastic demons. Generic demons allow for people to really pull out the stops when it comes to modelling and make some truly awesome conversions for their demons.

It Came From the Bitz Box!!!

Who needs to shell out money for a demon when you can toss some glue in your Tyranid bitz and use what you pull out. Let's see, how many Scything Talons will fit onto a Dreadnought base?

The new icon rules allow new players to really stretch their creative muscles and make an effective army without calling them one of the existing legions.

As someone who does not play Chaos, I really appreciate the new Codex as it is simply so much easier to understand. When I see a unit on the field I will have a fairly good idea of what it can do, which is a vast improvement.

I hear a lot of complaints about lack of creativity on the part of GW, which has me a little confused. This Codex boldly goes where no Chaos list has gone before. Lifting restrictions on who can take what mark? Allowing Chaos to freely ally with other Chaos? Destroying alternate lists and moving toward one ultimat list of Doom? These all seem like bold moves toward simplicity and flexibility of capabilities.

What exactly qualifies as creativity? Is it options? Is it odd ways of putting an army together? Is it complexity? Is it restrictions, exceptions and optional army lists? Is it bold and drastic changes to existing rules?

I have serious concerns about the balance of certain Slaanesh items. I think it is a bad idea to allow you to move an opponent's unit, particularly when tthere is nothing the opponent can do about it. I am a little concerned that some careless Chaos players might damage my models (unless they treat my models with more respect then they treat their own). Shooting my units is fine, but that ability sounds remarkably frustrating, not to mention effective. This lash can force models to clump together for a nice S8 AP3 blast (pinning too, if you care) on 7 models, plus partials on others, out of cover (that's why those things are 40pts). Or it could force shooting troops like Broadsides or Devastators to expose themselves to an assault form other Chaos troops. Or it could force close combat monsters to move out of assault range. I will have to check if you can use the ability on the same unit twice, just to see how badly it hurts troops like Genestealers and Striking Scorpions

Hellebore
22-08-2007, 05:51
just finished a re-write of the codex .. well for a first im pretty proud
ive manage to put every legion fluff and even new or not so new stuff in my
home grown. with all the controversy around that codex ( even the new dark angel codex did not have that effect ) was inspiring to adjust and try to balance
why buy when you can do your own

Exactly. Make your own rules. If you want to have Iron Warriors with 10 Heavy support choices, do it.

This codex is a response to the tournament crowd. It is simplified, concise, and clear. It is there for those who play tournaments to use.

No one said you had to use it at home. If you do, then you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Hellebore

Cacodemon
22-08-2007, 07:33
People desperately need to stop saying this.

It wasn't true the first time, it hasn't gotten more true since.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually don't play just to win.

I find it amazing that apparently very few people can conceive of not liking a new codex for any reasons other than power. Implies something, doesn't it?

And please note that I use "us" above to mean that group of players who aren't thrilled about the new codex. There are plenty of reasons why. I won't go into them here. Everyone reading this knows several of them.



And yet you don't offer a reason why you don't like the new Codex. What's so wrong with it then? I am a Chaos player also, and I'm thrilled with the removal of the most obnoxius power builds from the list. I'm thrilled with background section and the art work (not the Blanche stuff though, they look like doodles).

Give me a logical answer why you don't like the Codex if it's not about toning down the rules.

UltimateNagash
22-08-2007, 09:55
Now why would they drop plague marines I to 3 and give thousand sons I 4? Dropping from 4 to 3 is huge. They strike last against all space marines and simultaneous against guard. That's a rather unfluffy and nasty way of balancing something that is in no way as good as the new thousand sons which then get their I boosted?
:rolleyes: Er, why does the armour have to move slow?
And Nurgle are slow because, well, their armour is all cack etc...

I have serious concerns about the balance of certain Slaanesh items. I think it is a bad idea to allow you to move an opponent's unit, particularly when tthere is nothing the opponent can do about it. I am a little concerned that some careless Chaos players might damage my models (unless they treat my models with more respect then they treat their own). Shooting my units is fine, but that ability sounds remarkably frustrating, not to mention effective. This lash can force models to clump together for a nice S8 AP3 blast (pinning too, if you care) on 7 models, plus partials on others, out of cover (that's why those things are 40pts). Or it could force shooting troops like Broadsides or Devastators to expose themselves to an assault form other Chaos troops. Or it could force close combat monsters to move out of assault range. I will have to check if you can use the ability on the same unit twice, just to see how badly it hurts troops like Genestealers and Striking Scorpions
Cannot be used twice per turn, unless you mean 2 different Sorcerers. Plus he has to pass Psychic test, and most armies have a way of negating them... Psychic Hood, Runes of Warding etc...

infinity101
22-08-2007, 11:00
Im not a chaos player and i dont like the new codex, and i dont understand the chaos players that dislike it

as far as i know, this (and recent) codeci were designed with bringing back the balance of the game back (by toning stuff down) in mind.

this new chaos codex did that in some cases like removing some IW (4 pie plates + 9 oblits),some AL (all infiltrators), demon bomb armies of doom, first turn assault armies/lords/raptors
and this is considered to be a good thing even by some chaos players

to do this some units were removed (basilisks), but mostly this was accomplished by rules changes, like removing of all you can eat skills and demon gifts buffet, reducing the T of oblits, removing special demon rules, removing indirect from defiler

while i do agree that lesser demons were hit hard, im sure that they had to be hit some, and i am sure that a different codex will detail all those demons in the future.
greater demons were also hit, but with that statline at that cost how can you complain? (granted, they dont have wings and save 3+ anymore, but wasnt that over the top in the first place?)

Oblit T was decreased, but they gained new weapon options (IMO better ones with respect to the new codex), they are unlimited in number now for all, and most importantly they can now deepstrike with great precision homing on items (try not to forget that DA and BA generally lost homers which they had and new chaos has them included in already valuable wargear)

first turn assault lords are kind of removed, well good riddance, but what you got instead of that is lash (as it is rumored to be). so in fact you can now still assault in the first turn, but when that is done, you can still mess up opponents army every following turn, and in conjunction with those blastmasters & oblit plasmacannons & new and unshakable vindicators neutralize (temporarily or permanently) most important units with almost no chance of failure (around 8% chance of NOT affecting the opponents unit).
and you are still considering yourselves at a loss??

DP lost options..... yes they did. they are now slightly more killable. but considering the new direction the game is taking (less or more expensive high str weapons, more expensive plasma guns and such) the result is not that big. And you got free immunity to those pesky str 10 weapons that were unaffected. To put it in perspective my DAs get a lascannon in tac squads for around 200 pts, you get a DP for slightly more than half that. Are the odds so bad now?
AND you get two of those bare bone cheapo killing machines (still must have wings) in the new world of reduced weaponry to wreak hacoc starting from the first turn onwards.....and they can claim objectives for free.

when i compare your psychers & their powers with shafted DA ones ... i can only say....you are complaining??? just compare mind worm or force barrier vs any of yours. or helfire with wind of chaos

when i compare your "poor" special characters (as the review earlier suggested) with DA poor excuses for special characters, i can only ask again ... why are you complaining?? to remind you DAs get special items with grand names that are usually only master crafted ordinary item. i have yet to find something as lame as that carried by any of CSM characters and every CSM char has some named item with its own truly special rule. and i dont want to go into stat lines at all.

another point of dissent are cult troops. OK they were reduced in strength, and it might have been even justified regarding the idea that balance should be achieved by general toning down of stuff. just be glad that you dont need any special character to take them as troops. and they still seem good even like this.
and it seems that cult armies might get their true codeci later as this codex stresses new renegades and relatively new chaos marines supported by some elder ones.

your terminators dont recieve a bonus attack for being in terminator armor, well join the DA character club. and be glad that you can deep strike 10 models with combi plasmas on a homer that was infiltrated. IMO that is not weak at all. and especially with those prices that you have.
an AC might rend MCs or MEQs, a plasma gun (or ten) on the other hand will kill them usually on any 3+ to hit roll not only 6.

your bikes lost their second attack, but they gained ccw and BP, so no loss, you are still better than SM counterparts

your dreadnougt has changed to be slightly worse, well join the club, its the current trend, no real reason for you to be spared or complain too much

another thing that strikes me in these discussions are people complaining about lack of "chaos" in the new CSM codex. and all truly chaotic abilities/units/rules are perceived as bad (new dreadnought, possesed, spawns)
it seems that some players just _wish_ chaos to be more powerfull SMs, but resent the new comparison as SMs with spiky bits

IMO chaos should have more spawns, more possesed, more fire frenziying, more demon weapon risks, more kharn hitting his own side, more old khorne berserker rules.... in other words be more powerful if you wish but be chaotic to balance that power
in this way the codex failed IMO big time, there should have been more down toning on units that look like to be just SMs with bits added, and less toning or even buffing of things that are chaotic (and by that i dont mean chaoticly looking and powerfull)

currently CSM lists are bound to be 2 sorcerers/DPs with lashes + any AP3 or better blast weapons + fill the rest with spiky SM with better powers or SM vehicles with better upgrades..... not chaotic at all (and i applaud all who will not take the "path of least resistance", but not many are willing to forgo designer planted legal gamebreakers)

so to conclude IMO the codex is BAD as
it didnt return the balance
it didnt remove power gaming (it just changed it)
and it did remove or failed to introduce CHAOS in Codex: Chaos, in fact it penalizes it and rewards normal, "bland" as some say, units

RTB01
22-08-2007, 11:54
There will NEVER be a time when EVERYONE is 100% in positive agreement.

Take some supposed price reductions that were rumoured to be forthcoming. THAT of all things had people complaining. Complaining that it would devalue GW product and be a negative thing over all:wtf:


I completely agree with your first statment here, but I do feel that they could have done more with the book than they did. Alessio's work is notoriously dodgy as is Gav Thorpe's - hell, he doesn't even know the rules for the system he's supposed to be "loremaster" of! This is me speaking as someone who likes to play balanced lists rather than broken lists which abuse the books.

As for your second point, these people are clearly muppets and i can't disagree with your wtf!



OCCULTO - As an EC player I feel shafted and my army may as well have gone the way of the Squats. I accept though that the new dex is different (although I would argue regression over progression) so will have to adapt.

As for Vets, I really don't think we are being catered for, looking at the way things are going, apoc is more of a kids game is it not? My argument for this is that people can play with whatever they have and get to use larger weapons,, bigger templates and so on. I think that the orks and to a far lesser extent, dark eldar, should have been resolved before this is done if at all. It clearly is an attempt to get people buying more so they can play huage games. This is fair enough, but only to a certain extent and I don't think that my comment was overly simplistic as I stated "not catering" rather than "not caring" and the two are noticably different. You yourself say that if you want another army then you can buy for another system, surely GW would be better off producing something that you would want to buy rather than another company's products? In this case I think they are trying to solve this via apoc but i'm deeply sceptical

RTB01
22-08-2007, 11:59
Taking a small unit of troops in order to gain access to a heavy weapon was never taking troops. It was taking havocs lite, to add to your havocs, to add to your static gun line oí tedium. The new CSM trooper has had his capabilities increased considerably, being given a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW and a full suite of grenades, while having a tighter restriction placed on the heavy weapons they can take. This means the value of a unit of CSM is in the CSM marines themselves, as a versatile unit effective in ranged combat and melee. It means your troop choices are no longer a lascannon plus 4 or 5 guys watching and getting in the way of incoming fire.

That alone is cause enough to be happy with the new codex.

I would argue that the troops choices in the new chaos codex are far less viable than they are in the Eldar codex and as such we are forced to pick the best of a bad bunch rather than picking something useable - and I don't mean las-plas squads as my troops choices were full of Noise Marines and Daemons, whereas now, i will be taking 2 troops choices with less sonic weaponry because it's so damned expensive! (pts not £s) and for the next several months my daemonettes will be wandering in the ether.

I challenge chaos players to produce a competitive but balanced list, I don't think it can be done, but I'm sure we can all produce a competitive AND broken list...

squiggoth
22-08-2007, 12:19
Now why would they drop plague marines I to 3 and give thousand sons I 4? Dropping from 4 to 3 is huge. They strike last against all space marines and simultaneous against guard.

Oh no! They only have T5, power armour and Feel No Pain to defend themselves from all those nasty S3 and S4 attacks! Oh, those S3 and S4 attacks that might even be reduced in numbers due to Blight Grenades.
My Plaguemarines can manage their loss of inititiative quite fine with their new toys. :p


That's a rather unfluffy

These are the original Death Guard you're talking about, not the fresh young renegades who just started to realize that Nurgle is cool and only get a +1T banner.
The Death Guard haven't cleaned nor oiled their armour joints in 10,000 years, and apart from being bloated they also tend to fall apart when they move too rapidly. I think I3 is quite fluffy.

itcamefromthedeep
22-08-2007, 13:06
Cannot be used twice per turn, unless you mean 2 different Sorcerers. Plus he has to pass Psychic test, and most armies have a way of negating them... Psychic Hood, Runes of Warding etc...

I do mean 2 different Sorcerers. It's been about 4 months since I have seen a psychic hood. Runes of Warding are a little more common, but these days eldar players don't have to take a Farseer, so not every Eldar list has them (though that might change).

So, a competitiva and fluffy list. Fuzzy on the points, but it should be about right

Sorcerer of take-a-wild-guess ~125pts
another Sorcerer of take-a-wild-guess ~125pts
10 Noise Marines, Blastmater ~250pts
10 Noise Marines, Blastmater ~250pts (spread some Sonic Blasters around for fun)
10 Marines of Slaanesh, power weapon champ (swinging at I5), demon icon, Rhino ~260pts
10 Marines of Slaanesh, power fist champ, demon icon, Rhino ~270pts
possesed Vindicator ~140pts
Defiler (for the Battle Cannon mostly, but partially to eat some ranged specialists served up by the lashes) ~150pts
Summoned Greater Demon 100pts

Hellebore
22-08-2007, 13:26
I completely agree with your first statment here, but I do feel that they could have done more with the book than they did. Alessio's work is notoriously dodgy as is Gav Thorpe's - hell, he doesn't even know the rules for the system he's supposed to be "loremaster" of! This is me speaking as someone who likes to play balanced lists rather than broken lists which abuse the books.

As for your second point, these people are clearly muppets and i can't disagree with your wtf!


Lol, muppets :D. It's funny, but 5 or so years ago I remember people saying how great Cavatore was, because he was a 'power gamer' he knew how to break lists and so was a good developer. But as I said, no one can agree on anything, so that stance is about as valid as any other.



OCCULTO - As an EC player I feel shafted and my army may as well have gone the way of the Squats. I accept though that the new dex is different (although I would argue regression over progression) so will have to adapt.


EC armies were definitely the hardest hit miniaturewise (followed by the Alpha Legion and there cultists), and I know that 'counts as' sounds hollow...

How much of the army was shafted though? The Havocs certainly won't fit (unless you didn't max out on blast masters) but standard sonic blaster toting marines are still valid. If you count up the number of blast master models and sonic blaster models, you may be able to redistribute them throughout standard noise marine squads.

I can't say anything for terminators or bikers if you converted them, except that counts as is really the best use for them.

I do remember a time when people converted models for the look rather than the rule - when people had noise marine terminators heavily converted with sonic blasters and counted them as normal terminators. I know that the reason behind the conversions in your armies was for specific rules, but there is that 'cool' factor with awesome conversions.



As for Vets, I really don't think we are being catered for, looking at the way things are going, apoc is more of a kids game is it not? My argument for this is that people can play with whatever they have and get to use larger weapons,, bigger templates and so on. I think that the orks and to a far lesser extent, dark eldar, should have been resolved before this is done if at all. It clearly is an attempt to get people buying more so they can play huage games. This is fair enough, but only to a certain extent and I don't think that my comment was overly simplistic as I stated "not catering" rather than "not caring" and the two are noticably different. You yourself say that if you want another army then you can buy for another system, surely GW would be better off producing something that you would want to buy rather than another company's products? In this case I think they are trying to solve this via apoc but i'm deeply sceptical

Again though, I don't believe that the veterans present a united front either. They all disagree on what 'catering' for them means. For some vets, Apocalypse IS catering to them, for others it isn't.

For some concise, streamlined simple rules is catering for them, for others it is a travesty of the highest order.

I just do what I want - but then I don't have tournaments limiting my scope. With tournaments as a central part of the hobby, a veteran MUST be curtailed in their creativity and options.

If all you do is play at home for schitz and giggles then you can whatever you want (and this is what I do).

Of course, people still like GW to say what they want them to, in a printed codex no matter how many house rules they make...

Hellebore

Captain Micha
22-08-2007, 13:54
It changes get over it. But Micha that's a stupid response.

So are your's. All of your old 'cults' that are 'useless' how so? since there aren't rules for them now in the same sense just use them anyway. if they are so 'lovingly converted' as you claim they are no one is going to give two flips. besides it's Chaos... your choas smurfs could all have tits and no one would care. because its *gasp* Choas

the real issue is you don't like change. It happens. If it didn't change gw could not make money, you'd hate the hobby. Besides that from what I've seen out of the old dex, it was stupid cheap. mech crisis tau.. that's 'cheap' Chaos was just outright stupid cheap.

Spider
22-08-2007, 17:05
So the main criticism of the old (current?) rules is that is could be abused and the defense of the new ultra simple "chaos" marine codex is that it is harder to abuse and simpler to use?

Isn't that more of a criticism of the players of the list than the list itself?


Or am i wrong?

theluc
22-08-2007, 17:36
mich there is no real change, only rule change .. real change is a new unit a brand new mini we only got redo of the old stuff but tac wise same thing
the defiler is still fairly new ...the only good thing of the new codex is that daemon don't count in the foc as it should be from day one..that codex is just a power gamers wet dream..2 DP what a joke, normal marines as tough as plague ones...fast attack with only 2 choice, chosen aspiring champ 2 points cheaper than normal one, spawn counting as fast attack plus some icon are useless ( why give a re-roll on moral checks on a fearless unit , why give that option lol )
ok might just be oversights here and there, still in my mind doing new don't means to wipe out some unit like the cultist or the bassie..if they wanted to focus on renegades they should have done a renegades codex, most of us know that a chaos space marine codex is about the legacy of the horus heresy, may be fluff stuff but fluff is the ambiance of the game and fluff was the reason i got in the hobby.. such a awesome background shouldn't be overlooked . some change are good some are not dramatic and some are just catastrophic. to boost sales for GW is to redo the much needed orks and dark eldar with a nice and complete codex plus some plastic sisters and grey knights are also badly needed.. apocalypse might be a good thing, mostly for vets and collectors who have tons of stuff but not all armies benefits of the apocalypse system

might be true that the new codex is mostly for tournament play but still feels for power gaming the possibilities seems abusive...

in the end i think GW as always focus too much on space marines, too much players are left behind.

i think ill make a return to heavy gear when my 40k is finish painting

Captain Micha
22-08-2007, 17:55
Dark what? Ork? What's that? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you mean those ***** minis, and worse ruled things that only the really really really nut cased players play?

I think that says it all. same goes for sob, daemonhunters, and crons.... why do we get left in the cold?

only reason I think I play my bt based force at times is because at least then I have an army aside from tau made in 4th edition...

Pharon
22-08-2007, 18:01
IMO replacing a infiltrating speed lord that can move 6", fleet and then charge 12" while starting no more that 18" away in most games

with

A monstrous critter that can move 12", Use Lash to move an enemy unit within 24" 2d6" toward them and then charge 6"...while being able to start 24" away in most games isn't exactly doing a lot to remove the abusive elements from the codex. And you can have two of these units to boot!!

theluc
22-08-2007, 18:17
Pharon you got exactly my point .. not fixing abusive stuff but adding some... why every time Gav Thorpe write or participate in a book it almost finish in a riot.. same in 1996 with chaos, same also in WFB with horde of chaos first print. and if one day a decent dark eldar codex and minis comes out ill maybe start considering them as second army...

since i started i had

smurfs ( at the time the missile launcher looked like a carrot )
Chaos black legion.. they are black, they are bad, so cool minis ( main army )
sisters .. i didn't know that mechanized army was the way to go back then
Grey knights .. got bored pretty fast of buying same minis over and over

would like

Orks .. when the possibility of having a horde as we can do with nids with some cool minis ill start considering

Dark eldar.. ill consider them the day they got a decent redo of the minis and codex

gorgon
22-08-2007, 18:32
And yet you don't offer a reason why you don't like the new Codex. What's so wrong with it then? I am a Chaos player also, and I'm thrilled with the removal of the most obnoxius power builds from the list. I'm thrilled with background section and the art work (not the Blanche stuff though, they look like doodles).

Give me a logical answer why you don't like the Codex if it's not about toning down the rules.

Here's the logical response. Some people don't like the new codex because they know there will be new obnoxious power builds. Ergo, given the choice between a diverse codex with broken builds and a streamlined codex with broken builds, they'll take the one that gives them more options.

Personally, I have mixed feelings. I think they did some good things with the new codex and some really questionable things. So while I understand why some are eager for the new book, I also see that there are valid criticisms of the codex too.

This is pretty much the status quo for GW, though. They never just take the old codex, fix the obvious broken bits and call it a day. They always seek to shake things up. On the good side, that keeps things interesting and helps sell more models. On the bad, it never gets them closer to balancing armies. For each problem they solve, they create others. And that's what frustrates some of their customers.

theluc
22-08-2007, 21:13
Thanks Gorgon just to have taken the time of typing that last paragraph
let's just hope a majority of player reads it :)

itcamefromthedeep
22-08-2007, 21:19
(raises hand) Frustrated player, right here.

Great Codex, with a terrible rule. Moving an opponent's unit sent my powergaming senses tingling months away when I first got wind of it. Now I am bracing myself for the moment I see a Slaanesh Sorcerer deploy across the table.

Other then the glaring mistake a blind monkey could have cought, it's a good Codex.

theluc
22-08-2007, 22:14
itcameformthedeep
it wont be one sorcerer but 2 LOL or 2 DP oh dont forget those ap3 Tzeentch bolters and 9 DS oblies and those nasty death guards bikers

nice EC army hey :P

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 02:13
as far as i know, this (and recent) codeci were designed with bringing back the balance of the game back (by toning stuff down) in mind.

...

it seems that some players just _wish_ chaos to be more powerfull SMs, but resent the new comparison as SMs with spiky bits
Good summary!

I seriously think that most of the players who are complaining wish Chaos to be more powerful SM, but for FREE!

theluc
23-08-2007, 02:22
more powerful.. well its now uber abusive, let see the cheesefest begin at games day UK ..

Occulto
23-08-2007, 02:38
OCCULTO - As an EC player I feel shafted and my army may as well have gone the way of the Squats. I accept though that the new dex is different (although I would argue regression over progression) so will have to adapt.

Well good for you mate. (And that's not being sarcastic)

Everyone needs to be tipped out of their comfort zone every once in a while, otherwise this game gets too stale.


As for Vets, I really don't think we are being catered for, looking at the way things are going, apoc is more of a kids game is it not? My argument for this is that people can play with whatever they have and get to use larger weapons,, bigger templates and so on.

See I'd disagree that it's a game specifically for either vets or kids.

Most vets I know have accumulated very large forces over the years. Rather than picking 1500-2000 points at a time out of those collections, now we can experience the joy of playing BIG battles, without it bogging down into hour long assault phases etc. Also, those who've got them can take superheavies. I know one guy in particular who's looking forward to taking multiple titans. Vets are going to benefit just as much as the kids from this ruleset.


I think that the orks and to a far lesser extent, dark eldar, should have been resolved before this is done if at all.

True.

Still, I take some consolation from the treatment Eldar got. If Orks are anything like that (with new models) then I'll be happy. I'd prefer a decent release, than a token slap dash effort that just leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. Delaying the release is bad, but a bad release would be far worse. I have my fingers crossed that we're going to see quality.


It clearly is an attempt to get people buying more so they can play huage games. This is fair enough, but only to a certain extent and I don't think that my comment was overly simplistic as I stated "not catering" rather than "not caring" and the two are noticably different.

Oops. Yep, I got that wrong. Catering not caring. :)

I think that trying to sell models to people who already have them, isn't exactly catering to them. That's like a waiter trying to refil your already full glass.

I'd prefer to see GW focus on selling new ways for vets to use what they've already got. Apocalypse is one, CoD was another. In the perfect world there'd be supplements allowing people to mix and match what they wanted. So if you wanted hyper realistic weather effects, there'd be a Codex: Battlefields. If you wanted more focus on psykers - a Dark Millenium style release. For small scale games, hyper detailed rules with different ammo, grenades etc. Maybe a 40K version of the WHFB General's Compendium (one of the best releases GW have ever done) with suggestions for campaigns etc.

In short, give people the freedom and the tools to take the game as deep or as superficially as they want. Leave the core mechanics there for the tournament junkies, but for everything else, give us the chance to vary the game in ways other than "well I changed my armylist" or "let's try a different mission."


You yourself say that if you want another army then you can buy for another system, surely GW would be better off producing something that you would want to buy rather than another company's products? In this case I think they are trying to solve this via apoc but i'm deeply sceptical

If only they'd get Specialist Games back into store, I'd be very happy. :D The games are out there - BFG and Epic being my faves - they're just relatively obscure due to **** weak support.

I think one of the worst things GW could do would be attempt to directly compete in other niches. If they released a WW2 game, it'd tank (pardon the pun) because other companies already have that market covered.

Jeez, this has gone waaaaaaaay off topic. :angel:

sebster
23-08-2007, 02:42
I would argue that the troops choices in the new chaos codex are far less viable than they are in the Eldar codex and as such we are forced to pick the best of a bad bunch rather than picking something useable - and I don't mean las-plas squads as my troops choices were full of Noise Marines and Daemons, whereas now, i will be taking 2 troops choices with less sonic weaponry because it's so damned expensive! (pts not £s) and for the next several months my daemonettes will be wandering in the ether.

I challenge chaos players to produce a competitive but balanced list, I don't think it can be done, but I'm sure we can all produce a competitive AND broken list...

Noise marines are the weakest choice. Standard marines and the other cult troops all fall somewhere between solid choices and outright bargains. The Eldar troop choices arenít any better, DAs pack a little more shooty death for their points but are a lot more vulnerable, while Guardians and Jetbikes are middling to poor choices.

There is also little, if any, value in directly comparing units from one FOC with another in a vacuum.

sebster
23-08-2007, 03:05
IMO replacing a infiltrating speed lord that can move 6", fleet and then charge 12" while starting no more that 18" away in most games

with

A monstrous critter that can move 12", Use Lash to move an enemy unit within 24" 2d6" toward them and then charge 6"...while being able to start 24" away in most games isn't exactly doing a lot to remove the abusive elements from the codex. And you can have two of these units to boot!!

With infiltrate you were always able to deploy last, and between the fleet move and the 12” charge this meant if you got the first turn you were guaranteed a first turn charge against a target of your choice. You could also choose your target, so any half clever player chose a unit that would allow him to consolidate into another target. That meant the opposition had a daemon prince in amongst his firing line before he was even able to have a turn.

In the new rules you deploy as a HQ, so you deploy last, but between the high costs of these two HQ units and the high cost of Chaos units in general, you’re normally have all your stuff deployed before the other guy has deployed his elites and HQ. You’re also limited to your deployment zone, so you’ll have to deploy within range of the front units of the enemy, meaning the other guy gets to choose what units you’ll be able to target. You’ll then need to make your psychic test, and roll 6 or more on 2D6, which isn’t unlikely but also isn’t guaranteed. You’ll then be drawing those forward elements of the enemy even further forward, meaning you’ll have nothing to consolidate into, leaving you exposed to return fire from everything in the enemy army.

In short, people have chosen this as the cheesiest element of the new codex yet it isn’t remotely as cheesy as the equivalent option in the old codex. But people will insist it is, because they’ve decided to dislike the new codex, and that means complaining about it in every possible way, even if those complaints are contradictory (it’s a cheese paradise/it’s underpowered) or just plain wrong (leash is cheesy as the old speed/infiltratecombo).

itcamefromthedeep
23-08-2007, 04:03
Lashing enemies toward you is a problem not just because you are getting into close combat on the first turn, but that you can springboard your assault troops farther toard the enemy line. It allows for first turn assaults with CC specialist Defilers, maybe a CC Dreadnought, maybe Khorne Berzekers.

The problem is not that you can assualt one of your opponent's units on the first turn, but rather that you can assault your opponent's army with your army by the third turn, even with units that normally struggle to get into combat before turn 4 or 5. On the flip side, you can make sure your opponent's assault troops never make it into combat because you just moved them 4D6 toward his own deployment zone, out of cover, after blasting them at short range with whatever you feel like.

That ability is handy for removing troops from cover so that assault troops who have no grenades (summoned greater demons) do not strike last, and troops with high Initiative (Other Slaanesh troops) will swing first. Not to mention of course stripping them of their cover saves from plasma weapons or Thousand Sons' bolters.

If that isn't your cup of tea, then you can move heavy weapons behind area terrain, out of sight of your forces. You can also move them into sight of your forces and into a tactically untentable situation.

The Lash is the most tactically flexible and strategically powerful ability I have seen in a long time.

sebster
23-08-2007, 04:57
The Lash is the most tactically flexible and strategically powerful ability I have seen in a long time.

Yes, itís a powerful option. It isnít anywhere near as powerful as options in the previous codex, and my complaint is about the people who pretend it is.

Itís also an option that will require decent combined arms tactics, and will only be devastating when combined with the optimum use of other units. Thatís good play and what the game should be about. Compare it with the one-trick meatheaded simplicity of the older DP build, and while this option may become the anti-fun in time, I donít think it will get anywhere near as hateful as the old option.

You also said that you can use it on your own troops, I donít think thatís correct but donít have the codex in front of me.

theluc
23-08-2007, 05:17
to gorgon
i just signed the latd petition, a thing is for sure that the latd army will be back as i read in a apocalypse preview ( photoshot by .. i don't remember sorry ) with 3 muties squad at full strength in mini count they gain a bonus plus if you keep the FOC you gain an other bonus , i was planning a latd army too but with that chaos codex ill just paint unless my home grown codex is accepted in my gaming club.

well for the moment i will keep my chaos army since been so long to collect fix and paint .. if 40k is still on road of regression i will sell them

apocalypse is just not a viable avenue to me, i could do mega battles before so i dont need a book to tell me how to play one, i feel that apoc is just a deluxe epic. thus i like the new avenue of warmachines and all new models and over the top mega huge army box but that also should have been done years ago, back when it was cheap and fun

like the new codex dark angels codex it is bland and misses lots of fun stuff
like hellbore said back to the cult terminators ..that was counting as normal in a wd article there was rules to make them playable .. was so much fun to convert and test them..

well most of the minis turns great .. bad the game don't follow the same road
ill play some classic battletech with chaos marines as mechs or warmachine
maybe heavy gear blitz ...ah ill list under 2nd rules lol...i can do exact same list with the 2 codex wow a new codex like the old 2nd ed one

apocalypse .. i dont need it i got a dark millenium box almost mint ... never thought i would use that again

in the end we all got some refits .... more i read and look around nothing really new just a name change ..

well i think ill go for that SRW table top club

ehlijen
23-08-2007, 05:35
Yes, the lash is bad. Not as bad as siren was, but it is still so good that not bringing at least one lasher along is like fighting with your off hand. And of course that means that anyone not bringing a defense against it is doing the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I like how DPs are now much more sane than they used to be and I don't think the lash is the apocalypse or anything, but combined with the latest in farseer and librarian powers I wouldn't be suprised if people start bringing an inquisitorial scroll (hood) caddy along to hide in a corner somewhere (50ish points for a 25ish% chance to stop any power). It's too unfair to armies that can't do that, it's not keeping with the background and it is annoying enough in fantasy that I don't want to see it spread to 40k as well.
If psychic powers are to be that powerful, than everyone should have some means to defend themselves. So far only eldar and imperials can do that at all.

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 05:46
Yes, the lash is bad. Not as bad as siren was, but it is still so good that not bringing at least one lasher along is like fighting with your off hand. And of course that means that anyone not bringing a defense against it is doing the same thing. Don't get me wrong, I like how DPs are now much more sane than they used to be and I don't think the lash is the apocalypse or anything, but combined with the latest in farseer and librarian powers I wouldn't be suprised if people start bringing an inquisitorial scroll (hood) caddy along to hide in a corner somewhere (50ish points for a 25ish% chance to stop any power). It's too unfair to armies that can't do that, it's not keeping with the background and it is annoying enough in fantasy that I don't want to see it spread to 40k as well.
If psychic powers are to be that powerful, than everyone should have some means to defend themselves. So far only eldar and imperials can do that at all.

I was never really worried about psychic powers because I run nearly a pure Sisters list. 5+ save against major psychic powers and immune to minor psychic powers. With Lash, however, I had to retool my list a lot because I know that Lash is going to be abused. In the end, I like the changes I've made to my army and have new minis to show for it. Although, the minis are mostly from Rackham's Confrontation since GW's sculpts for an all female force are lacking.

The changes I've made are where I retooled my Inquisitor Lord and retinue. Before I just had the Lord to get assassins into my list and she had only 3 familiars. Now the Lord has Hammer of the Witches, carapace armor, bolter, power weapon with 3 acolytes, 1 vet Imperial Guard, 2 penitents, and 2 chirurgeons. The acolytes have carapace armor, bolters, and close combat weapon. Vet IG has a hell pistol and close combat weapon. To get it I had to drop 3 DCAs.

Players seem to forget that when a Codex changes it affects everyone and forces them to adapt to it. Psychic powers are making a comeback and people have to adapt their lists to deal with it and buy the appropriate minis. Granted, non-Chaos players don't have to spend a lot of cash to adapt like Chaos players do, but we still have to shell out the money for the changes to our list.

malisteen
23-08-2007, 05:47
There are some glaring problems with the new book, entirely apart from whether the concept of streamlining chaos by de-emphasizing the legions and daemons is good to begin with.

Whether or not you agree with the driving concept, there are things like lash, possessed, dreadnoughts who turn around (exposing their backs to the enemy) to shoot their own guys, khorne lords as likely to kill themselves as anybody else, and several other options that are either blatantly the best or just unbearably bad, that are just poorly designed. I wouldn't have minded the new design philosophy if they had just done a good job with it. I don't need the list to be powerful, I just don't want so many parts of it to be stupid.

Belisarius
23-08-2007, 06:08
I make no bones about hating the new Dex and thinking they got it wrong but lash is right up there for the removal of legion rules on why I dislike the new dex. I have already seen a list on B&C with two flying cc demon princes each with lash. They were stating a single unit can be lashed twice for 4D6 movement. or even lashing two units a turn will reallly screw up most armies. IMO the power while a cool concept was broken before it even left the gate.

The_Patriot
23-08-2007, 06:15
I make no bones about hating the new Dex and thinking they got it wrong but lash is right up there for the removal of legion rules on why I dislike the new dex. I have already seen a list on B&C with two flying cc demon princes each with lash. They were stating a single unit can be lashed twice for 4D6 movement. or even lashing two units a turn will reallly screw up most armies. IMO the power while a cool concept was broken before it even left the gate.

They could try, but with the sheer amount of units out there that are leadership 10 and fearless the only result would be moving them back if the power wasn't countered.

/hugs Hammer of the Witches

Trench_Raider
23-08-2007, 06:44
Written By: Gav Thorpe


That pretty much says it all right there, doesn't it?

How this guy has not been fired a long time ago is completely beyond me. Does he have some dirt on the GW higher-ups that he keeps as a sort of "insurance policy" or something? :rolleyes:

Methinks it's time to crack out the old "Gav's head exploding" animated .gif file as a new avatar.

"Trench Raider"
Who was looking forward to cracking out his wonderful old Slanneshi chaos renegade army again, but is thinking twice about that now...

Cacodemon
23-08-2007, 07:13
Here's the logical response. Some people don't like the new codex because they know there will be new obnoxious power builds. Ergo, given the choice between a diverse codex with broken builds and a streamlined codex with broken builds, they'll take the one that gives them more options.

So out of a broken codex and a more broken codex, you'd take the more broken codex. That's what I guessed from the beginning.

And what are these options you speak of? There were no-brainers that were always taken and useless options that no-one took, you only had perceived freedom of options (much like the useless Possessed we have now).

Actually, the new codex is more diverse than the old as all the restrictions have been lifted. Khorne/Slaanesh and Nurgle/Tzeentch combos are perfectly accetable, and more units can be marked.


Methinks it's time to crack out the old "Gav's head exploding" animated .gif file as a new avatar.


This I've got to see!

Vineas
23-08-2007, 07:45
That pretty much says it all right there, doesn't it?

How this guy has not been fired a long time ago is completely beyond me. Does he have some dirt on the GW higher-ups that he keeps as a sort of "insurance policy" or something? :rolleyes:

Methinks it's time to crack out the old "Gav's head exploding" animated .gif file as a new avatar.

"Trench Raider"
Who was looking forward to cracking out his wonderful old Slanneshi chaos renegade army again, but is thinking twice about that now...

Maybe because not everyone feels he is as bad as you say? Let's see the JJ and Gav haters write a better codex and publish it. I love the armchair developers, they are almost as pathetic and funny as armchair quarterbacks or armchair software developers.

Put pen to paper, write better rules, publish them and let's see if you have what it takes. Until you can prove you can do better leave the armchair developing at home amongst your peers, as for the rest of us we'll go enjoy our game and our toy soldiers.


I challenge chaos players to produce a competitive but balanced list...(snip)

I accept your challenge good sir/ma'am and maybe perhaps I will have the chance to prove it can be done in the Mnpls GT in February '08.

Rlyehable
23-08-2007, 11:20
A few comments...

But first the qualifications. I have never played Chaos. I may play it under the new codex.

On to the (limited) review

First the good.

1. Simpler. Yes, I understand that many of you believe this is a bad thing. However, this will make it easier for tournament officials and opponents to check lists. Tyranid were simplified for the same reason (and few Chaos players weeped for them at that time). It should also make it easier to avoid mistakes in making the list.

2. Emphasis on renegade chapters. One of the reasons that I never did Chaos was that I felt constrained in the last codex to play one of the Legions. No more, I am free to let creativity reign.

3. Some balancing was done. Some weaker units got a boost. Some stronger units were reduced in power.

The Bad.

1. Emphasis on renegate Chapters went too far, IMHO. I can't quite see a way for players who have fully painted, converted, Cult Legions to field thier army without confusion. Amplification:
-1a- You can put all your Legion modes into the Troops section (as Death Guard, Noise Marines, Beserkers, Thousand Sons) and max them out. But models with weapons that the new Troops can't take would have to be shelved or converted.
-1b- You could play with the Cult Legions in all rolls. However, how do you distinguish a Plague Marine Death Guard from a normal CSM Death Guard model? As I said I haven't played Chaos, so perhaps there already is a modeling difference that I did not see.
Neither option is very appealing. It would have been nice for GW to have made an option to take Cult Legion troops in other aspects (Terminators, Chosen, Havocs, etc.) at +5-8 points per model (IIRC, this is the cost over a norma CSM for a Cult Marine).

2. Useless models. In addition to (1), where you could have an excess of Cult Legion models, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion lost models that they can field. No Basilisk for the Iron Warriors. No cultist for Alpha Legion. Yes, IW can use the Basilisk in a LatD list, but that list may (and only may) be invalidated soon. And yes, Alpha Legion can use the custist as minor daemons. But still, not very appealing.

3. Generic Daemons. The daemons needed to be balanced between them, but this just seems to be done to sell the forthcoming "Codex: Daemons".

Anyway, there are my quick observations.

byteboy
23-08-2007, 11:40
A few comments...
2. Emphasis on renegade chapters. One of the reasons that I never did Chaos was that I felt constrained in the last codex to play one of the Legions. No more, I am free to let creativity reign.

Just a heads, nothing forced you to play a Legion army in the 3rd Ed book. You could have done a regular Chaos Marine army with samplings from each God as Elites. But many people enjoyed the background of the God specific armies & that is why you saw many of them.

This new book in no way,gives you anything more than what the 3rd Ed one did,regarding what you could take in an army. People were just blind to see it and/or prefering a God specific legion instead.

Cacodemon
23-08-2007, 11:52
-1b- You could play with the Cult Legions in all rolls. However, how do you distinguish a Plague Marine Death Guard from a normal CSM Death Guard model? As I said I haven't played Chaos, so perhaps there already is a modeling difference that I did not see.


Few terms need clearing:

Death Guard = Traitor Legion devoted to Nurgle
Plague Marine = Cult Marine devoted to Nurgle

Plague Marines are the bloated ones with cracked armour and helmets reminescent of WWI. You could represent newly joined Death Guard by painting normal CSM with the Death Guard paint scheme, representing that they haven't had 10000 years of diseases ravaging their bodies.



You could have done a regular Chaos Marine army with samplings from each God as Elites.

Nope, as you have only three Elite slots and four Chaos gods. :p

dcikgyurt
23-08-2007, 11:55
Yes, in 3.5 you could field either a renegade chapter or a traitor legion. But, the codex lacked the fluff to support renegade chapters. This codex has gone to the other end of the spectrum. The majority of the fluff is based on renegade chapters. I'm not exactly happy about this, but if fluff is what you're after, read the 3.5 codex or the HH books.

RTB01
23-08-2007, 13:06
Noise marines are the weakest choice. Standard marines and the other cult troops all fall somewhere between solid choices and outright bargains. The Eldar troop choices arenít any better, DAs pack a little more shooty death for their points but are a lot more vulnerable, while Guardians and Jetbikes are middling to poor choices.

There is also little, if any, value in directly comparing units from one FOC with another in a vacuum.

I must confess I forgot about Guardians!!! But Avengers (no longer dire) Rangers and Bikes are all solid troops choices IMO. I don't think that Avengers are that vulnerable, especially when flying around in nigh on unkillable tanks. Also I would be more than happy taking max sized troops choices - except Guardians because they're balls!

I disagree that there is little value comparing available troops choices across lists. The point is that I would very happily take 6 troops choices in an Eldar army and I wouldn't be annoyed or otherwise. As for the new chaos dex, I would feel agrieved (sp?) because I simply don't think they are as useable as they were and I suppose this stems a lot from the fact I'm an EC player AND have lost my precious daemonettes (ignoring the new daemons for the time being!), but, times have invariably changed, and maybe it's time to ally myself with one of the other dark powers - maybe even OFSTED! :P

Sureshot05
23-08-2007, 13:32
I think one of the main problems is towards the olders players (like me) who have nicely converted their armies based on the last codex. for example the cult terminators, Thousandsons with a Sorcerer, possessed dreadnoughts, and cult vehicles are no longer wsiwig, are therefor cann't be played.
I had (have just sold it piece meal) a thousandsons detatchement with a Deamon tzeentch detatchment in support..... the whole concept is now unplayable.

What I find a shame is the lack of consideration the writers had with regard to this aspect of Chaos, and even if it is too late for me, I hope for the game and for chaos they review their plans and release in an up and comming white dwarf "Cult army lists". We saw in the last codex it only took 3 pages per God, so they could space it out over 2 or 4 WDs.

Oh and one question, if i have understood correctly the marine unit no longer has a "mark" the powers are based on the "icon". So what happeneds if an assasin kills the icon bearer? Or if the icon bearer is the only viable target..............

However older players who are used to change either use count as or make up their own rules. To this day I have an assault squad of Ultramarines armed with Power axes, flame pistols and the likes. Did I cry when I lost all those with 3rd Ed? No, they count as CCW. My rubric terminators will be chaos terminators with a mark of Tzeeetch. My horrors will simply be generic daemons until codex daemons comes out. The thing that bugs me the most is the number of people complaining about the codex, but have yet to really try it out (unless you have been playing 2 games a night since the Megabox deal).

Its the exact same as someone who says that is lame without ever trying it out. If someone has played some 20 games with the new book, then I feel that they can judge, until then, it is purely speculation.

Sarevok
23-08-2007, 14:22
Maybe because not everyone feels he is as bad as you say? Let's see the JJ and Gav haters write a better codex and publish it. I love the armchair developers, they are almost as pathetic and funny as armchair quarterbacks or armchair software developers.

Put pen to paper, write better rules, publish them and let's see if you have what it takes. Until you can prove you can do better leave the armchair developing at home amongst your peers, as for the rest of us we'll go enjoy our game and our toy soldiers.


I've been reading the same worthless non-argument on Warseer(and Portent) forever. Stop it.

First off, it would be illegal for anyone who isn't GW to get a Chaos Codex published. :rolleyes:

Second, you seem to feel that people should not complain about something unless they can do a better job themselves.

So, I take it if you went in for a serious operation and the surgeon botched it, you wouldn't be complaining now?
You've of course, never in your life said anything bad about a song or musical artist have you?
Because if you did I hope you went out and got yourself a record deal.

And you've never complained about any politician, either. Complaining about the president means you have to run for president yourself.

Though if I were in Gav's position I probably could write a better codex. The guy told people to use Multilasers against falcons instead of lascannons. He doesn't have the fainted grasp of statistics.
Gav Thorpe is incompetent and should have been fired a decade ago.

Baaltharus
23-08-2007, 15:06
I'd have to say that Sarevok makes a perfectly valid point. Its clear from reading the codex that some of the rules are crazy and mixing the powers is an offence worthy of a thorough beating. however, other than rules like lash and blissgiver I don't think many of the rules are particularly bad.

The problems lie in the points costs. Possessed could be a tad cheaper (say 2pts or so), terminators combi-plasmas should be 10pts the same as every one elses. Chaos SM should be more expensive to accomidate their massive weapon load and high ld. Chaos Daemon princes should cost a bit more (as should mark of Slannesh) and so should greater daemons, lesser daemons wouldnt be too bad with a 1 or 2 point drop in costs.

Its these things were fixed it'd be a much nicer and more balanced codex to play with and against.

Al.

Belisarius
23-08-2007, 15:24
So out of a broken codex and a more broken codex, you'd take the more broken codex. That's what I guessed from the beginning.

And what are these options you speak of? There were no-brainers that were always taken and useless options that no-one took, you only had perceived freedom of options (much like the useless Possessed we have now).

Actually, the new codex is more diverse than the old as all the restrictions have been lifted. Khorne/Slaanesh and Nurgle/Tzeentch combos are perfectly accetable, and more units can be marked.



This I've got to see!

As for options how about the following
for chaos rhinos- combi-flamers spring to mind Demonic visage, picked veteran skills, hit and run for raptors, marked terminators, cultists (and before I hear yet again how i can use the cultists as daemons bear in mind AL can't summon daemons except with cultists and the image of summoning cultists in just doesn't look or even feel right this isn't Dawn of War) Legion specific rules (and yes while some were abused heavily the concept was great and there were plenty of us who didn't abuse them) Retinues or command squads for our Lords. just to name a few.
Did the old dex need to be fixed- yes
but they made a list even more open to abuse and blatantly cut the legions, i personally haven't like a thing that Gav has produced as a rulebook.

theluc
23-08-2007, 15:52
writing a better codex lol its already done
i only got to put in daemons and revised and play test
ive put back in the legions
added a brand new fast attack choice, supressor squad ( just a chaos version of sister's dominions with a rhino having a heavy bolter on the hull)
moved the vindi to fast attack and limit it to 0-1 unless you are a iron warrior player. retinue are back too, yes some use that

old oblis are back in heavy support and limited to 0-1 unless again you play word bearers or iron warriors
cultist are back as a 0-1 troop choice, alpha players the 0-1 is lifted

all new section is the chaos beasts section .. yup the spawn is there along with furies, hounds, khorne hounds and nurglings

ancient enemy rule is a bit modified and planning to get those renegades special features than instead be a generic codex list

and alot of other stuff

and also playtesting which i doubt new codex been tested

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-08-2007, 16:01
This new book in no way,gives you anything more than what the 3rd Ed one did,regarding what you could take in an army. People were just blind to see it and/or prefering a God specific legion instead.

non-rubric tzeentch marines/raptors/havocs/terminators

khorne raptors/havocs

nurgle bikers/proper havocs/raptors/bike lord or sorcerer

slaaneshi raptors

good chosen

your opinion is a lie

@theluc:do you have pdf with rules to share ? PM or post here

Trench_Raider
23-08-2007, 16:12
Vineas:

Maybe because not everyone feels he is as bad as you say? Let's see the JJ and Gav haters write a better codex and publish it. I love the armchair developers, they are almost as pathetic and funny as armchair quarterbacks or armchair software developers.
Put pen to paper, write better rules, publish them and let's see if you have what it takes. Until you can prove you can do better leave the armchair developing at home amongst your peers, as for the rest of us we'll go enjoy our game and our toy soldiers.


Oh noes! Not the "If you can't do better yourself, then you can't complain" line of thinking!!!11!! :rolleyes:

Well, Sarevok pretty much hit on every point I was going to make in regards to that, and was a good deal more polite than I planned on being so I'll be pretty brief.

I don't know how long you have been around this game but gav has a long record of failure and inept bumbling. Comparing him to his peers in GW it's easy to come to the conclusion that he is their worst designer and one of their weakest writers as well. I am well aware that everything GW produces is going to be critisized by the fan base, and in some cases very much rightfully so, but the sheer amount of critisism that is leveled at pretty much anything Gav vomits out ought to have set off alarms for GW. I have no way of proving this of course, but I suspect that his work gets more critisism than all the other studio staffers combined. In most industries if a designer got THAT much bad press and had such a record of poorly done products he would have been fired. Why Gav has not is simply a mystry.

Gav makes matters worse with his winning personality. In various interviews he has written, he comes across as a whiny, petulant, arrogant, little snot. Anyone else recall that circa 2000 interview in which he stated that the internet Warhammer community was pretty much meaningless and needed to "get a sense of perspective"? (the same one he also reveilev that he had a naive leftist worldview/politics...but let's not go there...)

I will say one good thing about Gav, though. At least a few years ago he had the good taste to cut his hair! :D


i personally haven't like a thing that Gav has produced as a rulebook.

To be fair and honest, although I didn't like the larger miniatures and thought the mechanics were a bit clunky, I did like Inquisitor.

Cacodemon:

This I've got to see!

I'll dig around online for it. I had to re-image my computer last month and lost some of my files. I think it may have been amongst those.
It's a capture from a flash game called "Spat-a-gav" that was produced by a regular on the USENET group rec.games.miniatures.warhammer years ago. It starts out with a well known photo of Gav. (the one that was featured in most of the White Dwarves circa 2000 or so, during his "long hair" phase. It's the one in which he looks at the camera all squinty-eyed in a 2/4 profile with hand raised like he was a religous figure bestowing a blessing...akkk I hated that picture) Then the animation begins. His eyes bulge and bug out, his jaw drops open in an expression of horror, and then his head explodes into bloody chunks. It's cartoony and unrealistic enough to not fall afoul of the site's ban on graphic and gory images and is an absolute hoot.
Anyone else recall it?

"Trench Raider"

theluc
23-08-2007, 16:27
acheron, its not play tested so means they are things to be fixed again like lash and the cheesy combo 3 vindi and 3 pred so i got to find a way to limit the vindi
i can send you a sample of one unit but nothing more

plus when i got the codex with pre-order i was so mad in 4 days it was written
5th day i brougt the codex back at the shop to get a refund

so there is some oversights and i got to fix them

also play test is the way to go, in my idea the new dex is for power gamers which proves that its not balanced, back on librarium online cheese fest has already begun

so bad

Polonius
23-08-2007, 16:46
Yes, as others have said, critics need not be capable. In addition, it's possible to compare a work of creativity to others, and one author to another. Sure, idle kvetching is just that: idle. On the other hand, there are serious problems with the new Chaos Codex that even previous codices did not possess.

the current SM codex invalidated all the old index astartes articles, but included the traits system to allow at least a partial working of units and upgrades that had existed.

the current Tyranid codex eliminated mutations, but introduced options to nearly every unit in the book, as well as allowed a brand new build (two if you count stealer shock)

the current Tau book only added options from the old (except the human allies), and allowed for three distinct builds (mech, firebase, and o'shavah wing)

the current eldar book invalidated the worst of the craftworld rules (like seer councils, distruption tables, all aspects as troops, vypers as troops), but adjusted the core list to allow every craftworld to be played (DAs became good, so biel-tan is still valid, Eldrad alone makes Uthwe awesome, wraithguard can still be troops, pathfinders are troops and good, jetbikes are troops, and the Avatar makes everything better). All in all, the Eldar book fixed the problems, kept the diversity, and made things better (except for the holo field).

BT and DA/BA are niche armies, and while they perhaps got less diverse, they are more distinguished from regular SMs.

the current Chaos Codex does much of the same thing as Eldar: they removed sublists, and incorporated all the units in the main list. The difference is that while the sub lists are all sort of buildable, many, many options/units/upgrades and rules have been gutted. If nothing else, going from a dozen daemons and four greater daemons to one of each is a huge blow to variety. Basilisks are obviously a big hit.

What's lost is the number of builds, or army archtypes that could have been build in the old codex that can't be built now. Bieltan went from never running DAs to now needing two DA squads, which at least now have value. Iron Warriors effectively lose four heavy support slots (the bonus one, as well as three oblitator cults). Sure, Iron Warriors were broken, and needed to be nerfed. But the build is now gone!

Infiltrating armies: gone!
Daemon bomb: Gone!
Footslogging World eaters: gone! (not unplayble, just really bad)


Hopefully, and I think this is true, new diversity will appear. the Chaos plasma-wing (3 squads of four termies with plasma, 9 oblits) will be interesting. Rhino rush is coming back in a big way. Chaos-zilla might be fun. Some cults get way better (plague marines, rubrics).

The new codex might turn out to be a major success. What people forget is that it's replacing arguably the most successful codex in GW history, in that it encouraged more armies than any other. It's byzantine and arcane nature meant that there are dozens of distinct builds available. No matter how good the new book is, it'll be judged against the standards of the old one.

On the flip side, many people rightfully point out that it's replacing the most broken codex in 40k history (at least since 3rd edition arrived), and that it need only not be that broken to be seen as a great success.

i think your view of the new book is solely based on whether you though the old book was incredibly rich in detal and diversity, or hopelessly complicated and full of broken rules.

theluc
23-08-2007, 16:56
so true... no need to comment Polonius

Subach
23-08-2007, 17:17
I will have to say, getting a 3rd Ed. Codex and then learning that a new codex is coming out afterward is pretty irritating.
I will have to say, I am one who holds the view that the old Codex had lots and lots of flavor, and it is kinda dissipointing that the Chaos are less flavor heavy, as that was an appeal of the Chaos Space Marines.
Still, I guess less complicated rules make getting an army list completed easier.

Polonius
23-08-2007, 17:31
Still, I guess less complicated rules make getting an army list completed easier.

This is the thing I don't understand: has anybody ever though building a list was too hard?

Have I missed out on the legions of gamers looking at a codex, not sure where to begin, wishing the whole thing was simpler?

I love building lists. I used pen and paper, than excel, and now Army Builder, and I love just going through codices, often for armies I don't even own, and building fun new armies. O'Shavah Wing, Mech Sisters, Kult of Speed, Daemonbombs, drop troops, Stealer shock.... all of these have been fascinating idle daydreams when I was bored.

For me, digging through a codex and creating a list was the best part of of the hobby! I loved chapter approved, with new units, lists, upgrades and options constantly adding to my palette.

An appropriate analogy might be in painting. I, like many gamers, ahve a huge range of paints. Craft paints, Delta Ceramcoat, Vallejo Model, Vallejo Game, GW, new reaper, old reaper, Ral Partha, and even a few Tamiyas. Do I need all of them? No. Would things be simpler with the new GW master set? Yes. Would I ever swap, even if the cost was free? Not on your life!

I think that GW is concered about how difficult it is to write a codex, not how difficult it is to write up an army list, and in that respect I have to agree with Vineas' greater point: writing these codices is hard, harder now than 10 years ago. the internet has enabled powerful lists, combos, and units to be accessed by everybody. 10 years ago, you might hear about brutal combos at an RTT or through a friend, but now information is at everybody's fingertips. In response, D&D revised and updated, WotC does an even better job of playtesting magic (at least since the disaster that was Tolarian Academy), and online games recieve a near consant stream of tweaks, errata, and outright updates. Even PP, while it's errata is a torrent of data, is better than GW's slow dribble of rules and rules updates.

Theoretically, these new codices are written with the tournament gamer in mind: straightforward, fewer hidden gems, balanced units throughout the book. For the most part, this has been a great success, but they're still not balanced (see nidzilla, AC heavy SM and codex: Holo-fields and Harlies). So, we have slightly more balanced codices with far less flavor.

sebster
23-08-2007, 17:43
I must confess I forgot about Guardians!!! But Avengers (no longer dire) Rangers and Bikes are all solid troops choices IMO. I don't think that Avengers are that vulnerable, especially when flying around in nigh on unkillable tanks. Also I would be more than happy taking max sized troops choices - except Guardians because they're balls!

I disagree that there is little value comparing available troops choices across lists. The point is that I would very happily take 6 troops choices in an Eldar army and I wouldn't be annoyed or otherwise. As for the new chaos dex, I would feel agrieved (sp?) because I simply don't think they are as useable as they were and I suppose this stems a lot from the fact I'm an EC player AND have lost my precious daemonettes (ignoring the new daemons for the time being!), but, times have invariably changed, and maybe it's time to ally myself with one of the other dark powers - maybe even OFSTED! :P

EC got the worst of the troops, its true. They're a little overpriced as basic troops and the sonic weapons all cost about double their real value. But every other troop choice ranges between solid and excellent.

Obviously your opinion differs, time will tell which of us was correct as experience with the new codex builds.

Subach
23-08-2007, 17:49
Well, I was refering that it would seem to be an easier job for me at a personal level.
I never thought that was what they were going for.

I didn't find making an army list difficult, but the sheer number of options and restrictions complicates things a little with Chaos SMs. Not that I am complaining.
(Fourtunatly, the gamers in my area often stick with the older rules, so I can still play a third ed. list in friendly matches)

grizzly ruin
23-08-2007, 18:05
There are some glaring problems with the new book, entirely apart from whether the concept of streamlining chaos by de-emphasizing the legions and daemons is good to begin with.

Whether or not you agree with the driving concept, there are things like lash, possessed, dreadnoughts who turn around (exposing their backs to the enemy) to shoot their own guys, khorne lords as likely to kill themselves as anybody else, and several other options that are either blatantly the best or just unbearably bad, that are just poorly designed. I wouldn't have minded the new design philosophy if they had just done a good job with it. I don't need the list to be powerful, I just don't want so many parts of it to be stupid.

That's just so well said, I have no choice but to sig it.

(edited to make it fit regulations :cries:)




Though if I were in Gav's position I probably could write a better codex. The guy told people to use Multilasers against falcons instead of lascannons. He doesn't have the fainted grasp of statistics.
Gav Thorpe is incompetent and should have been fired a decade ago.

He writes nice fluff?

But seriously, they really do need someone to go over rules who asks two questions for every rule:

1) Is this ridiculously powerful?

2) Is this ridiculously stupid?

Judicious use of those two questions could have made this codex a 98% success.




I love building lists. I used pen and paper, than excel, and now Army Builder, and I love just going through codices, often for armies I don't even own, and building fun new armies. O'Shavah Wing, Mech Sisters, Kult of Speed, Daemonbombs, drop troops, Stealer shock.... all of these have been fascinating idle daydreams when I was bored.

For me, digging through a codex and creating a list was the best part of of the hobby! I loved chapter approved, with new units, lists, upgrades and options constantly adding to my palette.

Same.

And the CSM codex provided the most joy of all, primarily since they are my favorite army, secondarily because of the sheer number of options that were available.

Now as I go through, I find I keep building nearly the same list repeatedly, with minor variations.

It's sad and boring.





For the most part, this has been a great success, but they're still not balanced (see nidzilla, AC heavy SM and codex: Holo-fields and Harlies). So, we have slightly more balanced codices with far less flavor.

And oh the joy's of facing those armies that may not get anything that even resembles a rebalancing with new design philosophy armies like DA, BA and CSM.

sebster
23-08-2007, 18:15
This is the thing I don't understand: has anybody ever though building a list was too hard?

Have I missed out on the legions of gamers looking at a codex, not sure where to begin, wishing the whole thing was simpler?

People have really, really got this wrong. I don't mean to target just you, Polonius, but it just isn't about the difficulty of building a list, and it isn't about the difficulty of writing a new codex.

GW came out and clearly and simply stated when they wrote 4th ed the felt the game was dominated by static shooting, with full on assault in second place. What they wanted to introduce was mobile, short range gunfights. So they allowed you to double tap rapid fire weapons even after you moved, built a better missions system that encourages units to move up the field, and told people to put more terrain on their boards.

Then they released Codex Space Marines, kept to the old design principles of masses of options with open slather on your unit types and numbers. And everyone continued taking the optimum, six man las/plas and stood in their deployment zone, same old static play. Whoops. Except GW identified their mistake, and have admitted that codex was a failure.

Every codex since then has included deliberate changes to encourage mobile, short range gunfire. The best value for money gun in the tyranid codex is the devourer, a short range weapon, while biovores took it hard. Dire Avengers, short range mobile shooters, were given a massive boost, while starcannon and their small static guardian squads were gimped. Harlequins made a return, and never has a unit been so obviously designed to butcher static troops, while being so vulnerable to short range rapid fire. Then Dark Angels and Blood Angels came along, with cheaper transports and boosts for basic troops in bolt pistols and grenades. It also brought the combat squads rule, stopping half your troop choices from carrying heavy weapons, making them, you guessed it, mobile.

Now we get CSM, who have followed the exact same model. Cheaper transports, cheaper mobile troops, more power to individual troops, less heavy weapons in the troop choices.

Why are the options being stripped back? It has nothing to do with simplicity. Because GW is trying to move army lists towards mobile play. They're trying to make the game, even at the tournament level, a mobile game. A fun game.

Frankly, I'm bored with people complaining about the dumbing down of the game. There was never anything dumber than building optimised lists and sitting in your deployment zone blasting away hoping your twinks are better than the other guy's. Now, you want to play, you have to manouvre, you have to win the game by outsmarting the other guy on the table.

Yeah, lists are simpler, but the game itself is smarter, more involving. I know which I prefer.

And again, Polonius, I'm sorry I picked your post to start my rant. It wasn't just your post that set me off, it was half the posts in this thread, half the posts on this board. The repetition of the 'dumbing down' thing has just got to stop.

bungeeboy
23-08-2007, 18:24
i like the changes, but i AM starting a WE army based on the new rules :D

Gaftra
23-08-2007, 18:32
kudos to you sebster. great post.

sebster
23-08-2007, 18:34
kudos to you sebster. great post.

Thanks mate.

Phenski
23-08-2007, 18:38
well done sebster, top post mate.

we all lose sight of GWs policies when we look back to 2nd and 3rd ed, these systems were totally unbalanced. i dont mind watering down some army choices for a more balanced gaming system. i want to win because of my choices i make as a general, not because i can pick the most bent army list and focus on the cheese! my current Night Lords have taken a smack, but now im super keen to make a renegade chapter... something ive wanted to do for years, now have the liable choice!

it all comes down to, if u dont like the rules, dont play.

simple

Cacodemon
23-08-2007, 18:38
As for options how about the following
for chaos rhinos- combi-flamers spring to mind

Rhinos can choose combi-weapons for 10 pts, and yes, it can be a combi-flamer.



Demonic visage,

Should not be an option, you should either have it or not. How do you model Daemonic Visage anyway "the model is terrifying to look upon", that could be said for the entire army.



marked terminators

Give them an Icon.



picked veteran skills

Broken no-brainer choice, why would you not take veteran skills? Now the true veterans have universal special rules, other's don't. And how do you model veteran skills?



hit and run for raptors

Not an option or a choice, but special rule which is now removed.



cultists

You can just count them as Daemons... oh ;) Admitted, cultists are missing from the codex. (They should be for all, not just for AL. Word Bearers most definately deal with cultists also).



Retinues or command squads for our Lords.

40k is doing away with retinues, just attach your Lord to unit.



Did the old dex need to be fixed- yes
but they made a list even more open to abuse and blatantly cut the legions, i personally haven't like a thing that Gav has produced as a rulebook.

How is the new codex more open to abuse than IWoD, all infiltrate, Daemon Bomb, AL cheapo Cultist horde, speed Lieutenant... the list goes on?

New codex by the looks of it has the Lash tag-team, and that's it.

So out of these two codexes, you would choose the more broken one, right?

Polonius
23-08-2007, 18:41
People have really, really got this wrong. I don't mean to target just you, Polonius, but it just isn't about the difficulty of building a list, and it isn't about the difficulty of writing a new codex.

snip

Yeah, lists are simpler, but the game itself is smarter, more involving. I know which I prefer.

And again, Polonius, I'm sorry I picked your post to start my rant. It wasn't just your post that set me off, it was half the posts in this thread, half the posts on this board. The repetition of the 'dumbing down' thing has just got to stop.

No need to apologize. I think you've done a better job of explaining the last five codices than anybody ever has. Taken in the context of trying to increase short ranged, mobile shooting, those codices are great.

I think this new codex is going to be an unqualified success in that regard: CSM squads are now the most tactical unit in the game, able to shoot, move, be transported, and assault all relatively well.

I just wish GW would say, "This is our vision of 40k, we are going to write codices that follow that vision, and while this might make many old builds less potent, we think that the game as a whole will be better." Instead, we get "the new codex is awesome! Buy it!" Or using the, "gamers were confused by the options of the old codex, so we're making it easier! Buy it!"

I'm starting to come around on the idea that the SM codex is a dinosaur. It's the last static shooty army (aside from guard, which sort of should be static. Looking at it, however, I'm not sure what approach a gamer should take with it other than static-ish shooty. My two main builds are drop pods and SAFH, with termies, preds, las/plas, razors, and tornados. If I thought I could use tactical squads well in any other way than podding or small shooting, I would!

Great post. I'm trying to remember, but I'm almost positive that the rise of static shoot was the initial reaction to the death of transport rush. I thought that the new rapid fire rules were to make tactical squads shoot, rather than rhino rush. While I agree with your points, and I think that the game will be better, I'm also a little tired of so called powergamers being blamed for using what GW gives us and makes no effort to correct.

grizzly ruin
23-08-2007, 18:45
Why are the options being stripped back? It has nothing to do with simplicity. Because GW is trying to move army lists towards mobile play. They're trying to make the game, even at the tournament level, a mobile game. A fun game.

Frankly, I'm bored with people complaining about the dumbing down of the game. There was never anything dumber than building optimised lists and sitting in your deployment zone blasting away hoping your twinks are better than the other guy's. Now, you want to play, you have to manouvre, you have to win the game by outsmarting the other guy on the table.


While I think you hit some really interesting points overall, the problem comes down to a codex as recent as the Eldar, or when new codices have to face nidzilla.

Because when you're faced with 3 nearly indestructable eldar skimmers carrying harlies or fire dragons, or when the residents of Monster Island are marching toward you pumping shots all the way backed up by several units of genestealers - you wind up turning to static firepower because those are the only weapons capable of giving you a chance to survive.

So when they change armies piecemiel, what they effectively do is gimp them against the powerhouses in an attempt to hammerfist them into the system they envison - instead of just building the system to play that way in the first place.

All we can do is hope that they don't swith gears yet again in the middle of this new design philosophy and actually get around to making sure everyone is playing on the same level field.

Because as it stands now, they aren't.

King Thurgun
23-08-2007, 19:03
Sigh, Chaos players I'm so very disappointed in all of you. You guys are the ones who are supposed to get all gung ho about the creepy chaos religions, get the blood rage goin, be overly zealous about your psycho gods!

And yet here you are, with a massive CHANGE at your door, and what do you do.

You WHINE.

Tzeentch is rolling over in his grave. Which is made of the corpses of multi-colored, everchanging butterflies that devour each other constantly and as they devour each other slowly transform into candy bars.

Chaos is change, embrace it.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels got more rigid and structured. You know why? Because the Emperor, in his wisdom, is a rigid, structured dude! So his guys are rigid and structured! Too much freedom in being able to pick my own wargear? YES MY EMPEROR!

Besides, He Protects. I got 25 pt. jump pack dudes with Vet options and 2 attacks. Oh and more rending than thou.

Be crazy, chaotic Space Marines dammit! Change is what you are!

Polonius
23-08-2007, 19:26
Sigh, Chaos players I'm so very disappointed in all of you. You guys are the ones who are supposed to get all gung ho about the creepy chaos religions, get the blood rage goin, be overly zealous about your psycho gods!

And yet here you are, with a massive CHANGE at your door, and what do you do.

You WHINE.

Tzeentch is rolling over in his grave. Which is made of the corpses of multi-colored, everchanging butterflies that devour each other constantly and as they devour each other slowly transform into candy bars.

Chaos is change, embrace it.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels got more rigid and structured. You know why? Because the Emperor, in his wisdom, is a rigid, structured dude! So his guys are rigid and structured! Too much freedom in being able to pick my own wargear? YES MY EMPEROR!

Besides, He Protects. I got 25 pt. jump pack dudes with Vet options and 2 attacks. Oh and more rending than thou.

Be crazy, chaotic Space Marines dammit! Change is what you are!

Oh, man, I can't believe I was so stupid! Of course chaos is change, and thus any and every change to the chaos codex is good!

Since DA/BA are structured, they'll never get another codex again, right?

And the Tyranid codex will be able to react to every new codex by taking the best units and upgrades and absorbing them, right?

And with every printing of the Eldar Codex, there are fewer copies printed, to represent the dwindling number of them.

I'm guessing the Space wolf codex will come with a beer coaster, and the DE codex with porn and heroin.

the new Ork codex won't even be written in english: simply crude pictographs of a pile of models and a cost in points.

thanks to you, I'll never whine again. Thank you so much!

theluc
23-08-2007, 20:17
disappointed in chaos players ?? if your not a chaos player then you have no idea of what you are talking about...

power gamers like it, those who don't like reading like it and others don't

mid ranged fire fights, moving around, close combat, action. didn't need a new codex for that. a good player do all that, taking risks, have good sportsmanship
and have fun

static gaming is a power gamers tag.

warhammer 40k is cool minis and great fluff one without the other isn't 40k anymore .. pretty glad theres other games with cool backgrounds out there

Gaftra
23-08-2007, 22:00
grizzly ruin has a great point about CSM and other armies not being able to beat mech eldar and nidzilla. To beat a mech eldar you MUST have a static shooting army, you cant kill falcons and wave serpents with assault, high strength weapons cant pen. you need to have volumed long 36" str 6-8 shooting to stop it. I really dont think GW saw people feilding that list when they wrote the codex because otherwise the book matches the play style of the other books.

chaos is not ruined. i am very excited to play with my chaos army and add all kinds of new things to it (20 spawn anyone)! but we are going to have to suck it up and accept that mech eldar is going to generally stomp our nuts along with everyone else.

Woodchipper5000
23-08-2007, 23:25
Sigh, Chaos players I'm so very disappointed in all of you. You guys are the ones who are supposed to get all gung ho about the creepy chaos religions, get the blood rage goin, be overly zealous about your psycho gods!

And yet here you are, with a massive CHANGE at your door, and what do you do.

You WHINE.

Tzeentch is rolling over in his grave. Which is made of the corpses of multi-colored, everchanging butterflies that devour each other constantly and as they devour each other slowly transform into candy bars.

Chaos is change, embrace it.

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels got more rigid and structured. You know why? Because the Emperor, in his wisdom, is a rigid, structured dude! So his guys are rigid and structured! Too much freedom in being able to pick my own wargear? YES MY EMPEROR!

Besides, He Protects. I got 25 pt. jump pack dudes with Vet options and 2 attacks. Oh and more rending than thou.

Be crazy, chaotic Space Marines dammit! Change is what you are!

Well, to be precise.... only Tzeentch is change. Chaos in general is about disorder and (in)fighting, or sucumbing to extreme levels of emotions such as hatered, despair, pleasure and hope.

I must admit, I was one of these people who whined when I got the chaos codex, and I saw all of these changes. However after reading sebster post (#184) I realised that it is a bit simple and sad to whine whenever Games workshop makes some changes, so I will stop whine and learn to live with it.

Personally, I think people whine about new codexes/codexi is because they are not use to change. If you think about it, the previous codex is nearly 6 years old. Thus people will grow accustomed to the rules, options, abilities that they have. And when the new codex comes out, they become lost because of new models, point costs, options, rules, and the (worst) fact that some models will be no more (i.e. cultists, dark apostles.... and Nurglings:cries:). Oh and the fact that you have to make a new army list.

Myself however, I will leave chaos for now. I will probably end up doing Necrons (or Orks if I'm up for the challenge:p)

Good job Sebster, you write good and logical points, you are probably blesssed by Tzeentch.

Sovereign
23-08-2007, 23:47
This is the thing I don't understand: has anybody ever though building a list was too hard?
Nope, but explaining what I build to someone else, or understanding what someone else built wasn't easy.

And that's what a lot of people don't seem to get: The Chaos Codex isn't just for Chaos players - it's just as much for their opponents. If your opponents can't quickly and easily understand your list from a cursory look at the Codex, that is a problem.

With the old Codex, there were so many options, it's not very possible for the opponent to know if someone is playing correctly with all of the rules. With the new Codex, there are less options, and they're much clearer, so fewer places to confuse the opponent's understanding.

malisteen
24-08-2007, 01:01
To reiterate: I don't mind change. I was a big supporter of this codex during the early rumor stages. What I don't like is stupid. Possessed in the new book are stupid. The heavy weapon option in CSM squads is stupid (although everything else about that unit is fine). Fire frenzy on the dreadnought is stupid. Lash is stupid (stupid-good, but still stupid).

I don't mind that the codex is different. I don't mind if it's less powerful (although I really don't think it is, at least not until an FAQ comes along to nerf lash). I do mind that several (not all, not most, but several) of the units and options in it are just badly designed.

sebster
24-08-2007, 03:18
I just wish GW would say, "This is our vision of 40k, we are going to write codices that follow that vision, and while this might make many old builds less potent, we think that the game as a whole will be better." Instead, we get "the new codex is awesome! Buy it!" Or using the, "gamers were confused by the options of the old codex, so we're making it easier! Buy it!"

Yeah, good point. The funniest thing about GW is for all the money spent on getting main street retail stores, on hyping up every new release, on turning White Dwarf into basically a product catalogue... GW marketing really sucks. You have dedicated fan base that wants to read more about the company, where their games are heading, its a level of interest most companies would kill in their consumer base. GW has it, but still wonít communicate what its really doing. Weíve had to piece together the direction for 40K by ourselves, because all GW wants to tell us is how great everything is.


I'm starting to come around on the idea that the SM codex is a dinosaur. It's the last static shooty army (aside from guard, which sort of should be static. Looking at it, however, I'm not sure what approach a gamer should take with it other than static-ish shooty. My two main builds are drop pods and SAFH, with termies, preds, las/plas, razors, and tornados. If I thought I could use tactical squads well in any other way than podding or small shooting, I would!

Yeah, thatís how the codex works at the moment. Funny thing is, for all the complaining about asscannon lists, you get them on terminators and landspeeders, so at least they move around a bit and keep things interesting.

It will be interesting to see what GW do with Guard. Iím guessing maybe more will be done to encourage mechanized forces (big points cut on Chimeras) and maybe basic troops getting cut to 5 points while keeping heavy weapons pretty pricey for troop choices. It would probably make them a little more viable as mobile units, while still keeping the guard flavour.


Great post. I'm trying to remember, but I'm almost positive that the rise of static shoot was the initial reaction to the death of transport rush. I thought that the new rapid fire rules were to make tactical squads shoot, rather than rhino rush. While I agree with your points, and I think that the game will be better, I'm also a little tired of so called powergamers being blamed for using what GW gives us and makes no effort to correct.

Yeah, if you consider DA and BA players get free grenades and free pistols, and CSM get all that and close combat weapons, standard SM players are only left with min-maxxed squads to compensate. To keep up youíve work with the codex youíve got, and until the redux that means six man las/plas.

sebster
24-08-2007, 04:01
While I think you hit some really interesting points overall, the problem comes down to a codex as recent as the Eldar, or when new codices have to face nidzilla.

Because when you're faced with 3 nearly indestructable eldar skimmers carrying harlies or fire dragons, or when the residents of Monster Island are marching toward you pumping shots all the way backed up by several units of genestealers - you wind up turning to static firepower because those are the only weapons capable of giving you a chance to survive.

Thatís the other problem with game at present, extreme lists. One Falcon is a tough unit, but pretty pricey for its firepower and transport capability. Three falcons are simply too tough for any conventional list to bring down, and you canít redeploy to avoid three falcons, properly deployed they can potentially drop harlies anywhere on the board.

I think nidzilla was a poor design choice, a rule brought in to encourage extreme lists. Like one falcon, one or two carnifex are good, but hardly overpowering for most balanced lists. Two tyrants plus five or six carnifex, though, is just too many hard targets for conventional lists to bring down.

GW havenít done anything to stop this kind of list, though to be honest Iím not really sure what can be done. Itís just a basic reality of wargaming that you want to limit your weaknesses to as few of the enemy weapons as possible, and that means its better to max out on one type of unit.

Round my area we have a general rule not to play with extreme lists. This isnít anything official but weíre all mates and normally tell each other roughly what weíll be taking before starting the game. That kind of culture canít really happen at a tournament level, though, so I donít know what can be done to solve the problem.


So when they change armies piecemiel, what they effectively do is gimp them against the powerhouses in an attempt to hammerfist them into the system they envison - instead of just building the system to play that way in the first place.

All we can do is hope that they don't swith gears yet again in the middle of this new design philosophy and actually get around to making sure everyone is playing on the same level field.

Because as it stands now, they aren't.

40K is a game thatís been designed by committee over 20 years. There are strengths to that, there is a tremendous diversity to the ideas in the game, and there has been an evolutionary process thatís kept the good ideas and culled the bad ones.

But there are problems with the system as well. There are rules and concepts floating around in the game because they were there at the start Ė is there any reason to have a to hit roll that isnít modified by anything? And at any given point in time, generally half the codices out there will be based on old ideas. The SM codex is one example of that, but the Ork and DE codex really show their age.

And yeah, thereís every chance GW will change design philosophies before finishing a full codex release.

Rioghan Murchadha
24-08-2007, 05:34
The thing that bugs me about the newer books.. CSM especially, is not the change... That I will adapt to. It's the fact that every time a codex gets redone, there seems to be a subtle but noticeable points drop across the army list, requireing people to purchase more models.

Personal example: I Have a Thousand Sons army. I was finished the collection phase. Didn't need to buy anything else for it. I could comfortably make a variety of lists up to and around 3000 pts. If I wanted to, I could totally pimp out my chosen and crank the list up to about 4500 pts for apocalyptic(tm) games.

Now, with the elimination of the all ass-champ/sorcerer chosen, and the culling of rubric terminators and such, I have far fewer points of 1k sons under the new codex. If I want to play apocalypse with them, I have to buy more crap... Crap which I didn't want.

dybbukdude
24-08-2007, 05:37
wow 200 posts whining *coughs* i meaning talking about the new chaos codex

theluc
24-08-2007, 06:47
rioghan
GW needs us to buy to survive , but instead of fixing whats wrong they redo marines again and again...there is far eenuff marines players out there, i would like see more orks players but they been left in the dark and th modeel are in bad need of a update same goes for dark eldar

and those shelved minis keep thm they will see some action , may be in long but they will come back sooner or later

RTB01
24-08-2007, 11:06
wow 200 posts whining *coughs* i meaning talking about the new chaos codex

no offense but that doesn't really help the debate or commentary, if you're after a rise of out someone then fine, here it is,

all whining is valid, but some moans are more valid than others.

Aaron the Black
24-08-2007, 11:22
My first post, hello every one :)

Ive played CSM in 2nd 3rd ed (i still have hand flamers hehe) and i loved the traitor legions.

I enjoy this thread, its giving me an idea of what to expect in teh codex.

Oh, and nice site :D

UltimateNagash
24-08-2007, 15:42
So, I presume the complaints are:
a) Lash of Submission
b) Cheaper stuff = more money spent
c) Daemons (and no Daemonic Gifts)
d) No 4 Heavy Support IW for Basilisks with Obliterators as Elites...
e) Dreadnoughts
f) Extra Armour boosted cost...
and is that it? I'm not reading 11 pages, sorry...
I agree that a) is very powerful, and e) and f) are a bit stupid really. C) is only temporary, so that's OK, b) doesn't concern me because I didn't have any Chaos models before and things like d) don't concern me because they were :cheese:...

Trench_Raider
24-08-2007, 15:58
The thing that bugs me about the newer books.. CSM especially, is not the change... That I will adapt to. It's the fact that every time a codex gets redone, there seems to be a subtle but noticeable points drop across the army list, requireing people to purchase more models.


That is nothing new. GW has been doing that with every new editon of both core games for almost two decades now. For example in the RT list a bare bones squad of IG was 200 points for 10 models including a lascannon and grenade launcher. I don't have an IG codex handy, but I'm sure that is almost double what they cost now. A ten man Space Marine tactical Squad with missle launcher and flamer was 250 points. The same unit today runs you 166 points.

Fantasy has seen similar decreases. In the early '90s a bare bones orc boy costs 8.5 points, while today the same orc (handweapon, light armour, shield) runs 6 points. High Elf silver helms, fully kitted out used to be 45 points each. Now they are 23 points a model.

Characters and big monster have seen big points decreases in both systems as well.

I would have less problem with this if GW were more honest about their motivation for lowering the points values. Hell, I would be happier if they just didn't comment on it at all. But instead they spin it, to make it sound like a good thing and in doing so insult our intelligence. In a WD article detailing the change over from one fantasy edition to another (the exact one escapes me right now and is really not important) GW related in their usual excited puppy editorial style that this change in points costs had been done for the benefit of players, because they knew how everyone would love to play with more models on the boards!

"Trench Raider"

x-esiv-4c
24-08-2007, 16:05
As usual, Trenchie brings up a good point.
Looking at the numbers, GW is hurting for money. Hell, Apoc is testament to this. I believe someone said that you could play it in such a way that you abandon the FOC? That sounds like a wonderful marketing ploy to get consumers to buy more and more.

"Oh look, I can have 15 land-raiders!"

In order to play the new expansion you have to buy more models, most players don't have armies designed to be 3500+. Don't even say it makes the game more fluffy because one force commander and 20 landspeeders isn't.

dabiggrotsboss
24-08-2007, 16:08
And I'd like to know what the big fuss is about?

Is it just that the Undivided First Founding legions have been pushed to the sidelight?

The changes have, in my opinion, made Thousand Sons far better. Khorne Bezerkers are perhaps somewhat less powerful, since they have lost their bonus movement and chainaxes, but they have gained furious charge.

Noise Marines don't seem to have changed much. In regards to Plague Marines, would I be right in thinking Bolter, Pistol and CCW is better than having a bolter and true grit?

I like the fact that the Marks of Chaos have been streamlined - the rules for them seem alot simpler, even if this has meant they have lost some rules along the way.

The overhaul of the wargear/ demonic items section is one that I personally am glad of. There never seemed to be much variance with them anyway, as some gifts were far better than others. It also means there is less chance for people intentionally "accidently" giving their Daemon Prince 10pts too many of daemonic gifts.


Overall, I think the new codex does alot of the things the old one didn't, but far more simply.
So, what is it that everyone seems to be whining about?

You're right on the money. I read it last night.

Every themed army works just as well if not better. My Death Guard are better. OK, so daemons are generic, who cares. They Greater Daemon is awesome for the cost. And no slots are taken up!

When Gav states that building an army shouldn't take the better part of a day to write out the list, he was right about the last codex, it was convoluted and difficult to get through.

The Chaos Codex is just another in a brilliant line that started with Eldar, continued to Dark Angels, and was teased at with Blood Angels. Please keep going GW, you have my undivided attention.

Codex: Chaos, a solid 10/10 for me. The New Good Days of 40k are here!

yabbadabba
24-08-2007, 17:09
The thing that bugs me about the newer books.. CSM especially, is not the change... That I will adapt to. It's the fact that every time a codex gets redone, there seems to be a subtle but noticeable points drop across the army list, requireing people to purchase more models.

Personal example: I Have a Thousand Sons army. I was finished the collection phase. Didn't need to buy anything else for it. I could comfortably make a variety of lists up to and around 3000 pts. If I wanted to, I could totally pimp out my chosen and crank the list up to about 4500 pts for apocalyptic(tm) games.

Now, with the elimination of the all ass-champ/sorcerer chosen, and the culling of rubric terminators and such, I have far fewer points of 1k sons under the new codex. If I want to play apocalypse with them, I have to buy more crap... Crap which I didn't want.


That is nothing new. GW has been doing that with every new editon of both core games for almost two decades now. For example in the RT list a bare bones squad of IG was 200 points for 10 models including a lascannon and grenade launcher. I don't have an IG codex handy, but I'm sure that is almost double what they cost now. A ten man Space Marine tactical Squad with missle launcher and flamer was 250 points. The same unit today runs you 166 points.

Fantasy has seen similar decreases. In the early '90s a bare bones orc boy costs 8.5 points, while today the same orc (handweapon, light armour, shield) runs 6 points. High Elf silver helms, fully kitted out used to be 45 points each. Now they are 23 points a model.

Characters and big monster have seen big points decreases in both systems as well.

I would have less problem with this if GW were more honest about their motivation for lowering the points values. Hell, I would be happier if they just didn't comment on it at all. But instead they spin it, to make it sound like a good thing and in doing so insult our intelligence. In a WD article detailing the change over from one fantasy edition to another (the exact one escapes me right now and is really not important) GW related in their usual excited puppy editorial style that this change in points costs had been done for the benefit of players, because they knew how everyone would love to play with more models on the boards!

"Trench Raider"


As usual, Trenchie brings up a good point.
Looking at the numbers, GW is hurting for money. Hell, Apoc is testament to this. I believe someone said that you could play it in such a way that you abandon the FOC? That sounds like a wonderful marketing ploy to get consumers to buy more and more.

"Oh look, I can have 15 land-raiders!"

In order to play the new expansion you have to buy more models, most players don't have armies designed to be 3500+. Don't even say it makes the game more fluffy because one force commander and 20 landspeeders isn't.

Simple answer - DON'T PLAY IT. PLAY WITH LESS POINTS. Problem solved.

GW can't make you do anything. I am disappointed with Trench Raider, an intelligent, astute if somewhat acidic person, that he can't close his ears to marketing. Of course GW wants you to buy more minis - it's their business.

The real issue with the points drop is this - Players want to play bigger games. GW wants their main core rule system to remain relatively constant. GW wants to make more money. Answer? Lower the points cost on things and make sure the game runs the same. The other answer is a new game set at a playing limit of 3000+. Like Apocalypse will be.

If you want to play with your old 2000pt army but now it's only worth 1769 then play 1769 aside. Where is the problem?

x-esiv-4c
24-08-2007, 17:20
Why didn't "40k in 40 minutes" get the kind of attention Apoc does? So much more could be done on the squad based level.

Gideon
24-08-2007, 18:11
Aologies if this has already been covered but I've just received my copy of this months white dwarf and one of the plague marines featured sports a heavy bolter. With the new chaos rule change is this now allowed as Nurgle never had this option before....

theluc
24-08-2007, 18:23
well with all the whinning i wrote, and directs attacks ive made towards 4th ed appreciators ( Sorry guys, was just mad as hell ) the new dex is still bad , cheesy, abusive, unfluffy not to mention the fact of the severals oversights

but also has good points

easy to use for both kids and opponents
and easy to use

did i mention easy to use :P

ive try it against IG several times in big battles ( 3kpts )
even with the win it was kind of too obvious of the balance being off

well i will ajust for opponent who want play 4th ed but ill be playing 3rd or home grown most of the time

theluc
24-08-2007, 18:27
gideon
death guards had heavy weapons years ago, its nothing new
they just bringing back old stuff

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
24-08-2007, 18:41
actually pretty every troop squad (bar daemons but they are joke) cost more than before ( more expensive weapons and champion upgrade)

cult troops also cost more than before or similiar

obliterators went up as well

lords are more expensive

possessed cost more

terminators with power weapon cost less (other weapons cost as they used to cost)

raptors are cheaper (at least!)

bikers are similiar

spawns cost twice they used to cost

daemon princes cost slightly less

land rider cost less

WTF trench rider - in my current 1500 army i have 69 models including speedy lord ... i DOUBT YOU CAN EVER have more models in competentive rooster

edit: true - greater daemons are cheaper (as they dont have psychic power and wing option - hell he cant have anything!)

grizzly ruin
24-08-2007, 18:48
I would have less problem with this if GW were more honest about their motivation for lowering the points values. Hell, I would be happier if they just didn't comment on it at all. But instead they spin it, to make it sound like a good thing and in doing so insult our intelligence. In a WD article detailing the change over from one fantasy edition to another (the exact one escapes me right now and is really not important) GW related in their usual excited puppy editorial style that this change in points costs had been done for the benefit of players, because they knew how everyone would love to play with more models on the boards!


While the argument as a whole may have merit, it really isn't connected to the new codex all that much.

Thousand Sons Champions didn't get "cheaper", there's just no longer a heap of options to buy.

Aside from a handful of units that did get lower, most things have either stayed the same points or gone up in cost.

Aspring Champions upgrades are more expensive, heavy weapons in squads are more expensive, powerfists, power weapons are more expensive.

Posessed, Plague Marines, Noise Marines even basic CSMs are more expensive.

So while a few build types might find they have some extra points to spend, most are finding the opposite.

grizzly ruin
24-08-2007, 18:51
I would have less problem with this if GW were more honest about their motivation for lowering the points values. Hell, I would be happier if they just didn't comment on it at all. But instead they spin it, to make it sound like a good thing and in doing so insult our intelligence. In a WD article detailing the change over from one fantasy edition to another (the exact one escapes me right now and is really not important) GW related in their usual excited puppy editorial style that this change in points costs had been done for the benefit of players, because they knew how everyone would love to play with more models on the boards!


While the argument as a whole may have merit, it really isn't connected to the new codex all that much.

Thousand Sons Champions didn't get "cheaper", there's just no longer a heap of options to buy. Actually, the base AC and TS squad is now more expensive since the AC is mandatory - and you can no longer get the upgrade for free.

Buying him a power is mandatory. And he comes equipped with a Forceweapon which he pays roughly the price of a Powerfist which is also mandatory.

Aside from a handful of units that did get lower, most things have either stayed the same points or gone up in cost.

Aspring Champions upgrades are more expensive, heavy weapons in squads are more expensive, powerfists, power weapons are more expensive.

Posessed, Plague Marines, Noise Marines even basic CSMs are more expensive.

Even the Base Lord and Base Sorcerer have gotten more expensive, and there is no longer a Cheap Lt. option (which was a fav of mine).

So while a few build types might find they have some extra points to spend, most are finding the opposite.

King Thurgun
24-08-2007, 18:54
Oh, man, I can't believe I was so stupid! Of course chaos is change, and thus any and every change to the chaos codex is good!

thanks to you, I'll never whine again. Thank you so much!

No problem fallen one! All in a Space Marine's day's work! Maybe one day you'll realize your folly and turn back to the warm light of the Imperium, where you will certainly be punished for your heresy, and whining.

Because all the good Guard, Inquisitor and Marine players I know suck it up like soldiers, deal with the problems with their codexes and win anyway. For the Emperor!

Granted, we don't have many/any problems with our codexes... but hey, the Emperor protects.

Sarevok
24-08-2007, 20:18
Simple answer - DON'T PLAY IT. PLAY WITH LESS POINTS. Problem solved.

If you want to play with your old 2000pt army but now it's only worth 1769 then play 1769 aside. Where is the problem?

Well this assumes your opponent agrees, first. I mean it's basically saying if you think the rules for X suck, don't use them; but that's easier said than done.
If you're playing a tourney or something you'll just have to buy more models.


actually pretty every troop squad (bar daemons but they are joke) cost more than before ( more expensive weapons and champion upgrade)

The complete removal of the Armory, including Daemon Gifts, means plenty of Chaos players will have to field more models.

e.g. the BASE Chaos Lord is more expensive, but in reality he'll be alot cheaper than many previous Chaos Lords who loaded up on gifts and stuff.

Base costs might have gone up, but you're also getting things as standard that were options before, e.g. a Marine with Frag and Krak is 17 points in the old codex and 15 in the new.

The Song of Spears
24-08-2007, 20:42
As the new dex is not out i wont hold it against those who say things they apparently know nothing about.

As someone previously said, most items went up in cost, down in options.

A typical army now will consist of likely less models than before, unless you intentionally take everything as cheap as you can, in which case i don't think you are the type to care about having to get more models.

GW did great with this new codex:CSM... but thats all it is Chaos Space Marines. Deamons are thrown in more like generic allies and are not the focus of making a chaos space marine force.

But in doing this GW also got ride of many options other chaos marines had. These exclusions were in no way to GWs benefit.

No more IW? ok, no more mass oblit sales, no extra basilisk sales

No more Word bearers? No more dark chaplains bought and, usually at a cost, converted.

No more Deamon Princes with loads of options? No more multiple models bought to represent each players unique prince.

No official LatD, no more mass converted armies with looted imperial vehicles.

the list goes on. This codex was not designed by the accountants, it was designed by some very lazy person at GW who thought it would be easier to make a simple generic codex, than work out balance with the odd wargear and rules chaos should have.

And their distinct lack of creativity is strongly apparent in crap like Lash of Submission. With no real fluff explanation of value we get a very powerful and very odd game mechanic that seems quite out of sorts when compared o the other powers in the game (if you don't agree, compare this powers usefulness to any of the Grey Knights powers)

No, no. This will be a fine spikey Marine codex, but nothing more. All of the uniqueness and potential cross army sales and even some of the fluff got tossed aside in the name of ... simplicity.

I don't care how effective this codex is to win with, all of the heart has been drained out of the Chaos armies. Now i can paint my marines all black and tell my opponent that they are all +1 toughness because i decided to take the mark of nurgle, but i didn't model it, as there was no real reason to, its just a piece of generic wargear at this point. No sacred squad size or weapon restriction or any uniqueness to taking the mark necessary.

Zerosoul
24-08-2007, 21:07
Well, at least we're to the screaming idiocy part of the thread, where people actually complain because point costs decreased(even when they didn't, not that that stops our fearless complainers). Hopefully soon we'll be on to the more interesting discussion.

That being said, on to someone who didn't post something that mind-breakingly silly.


GW did great with this new codex:CSM... but thats all it is Chaos Space Marines. Deamons are thrown in more like generic allies and are not the focus of making a chaos space marine force.

Isn't that weird? Making the Chaos Space Marine 'dex about Chaos Space Marines?


the list goes on. This codex was not designed by the accountants, it was designed by some very lazy person at GW who thought it would be easier to make a simple generic codex, than work out balance with the odd wargear and rules chaos should have.

No, it was designed for people who did the cardinal sin around here and didn't design for the Internet crowd. I mean, we've seen it in this thread - building lists is no more! We might actually have to play the game instead of play percentages in Internet forums!


And their distinct lack of creativity is strongly apparent in crap like Lash of Submission. With no real fluff explanation of value we get a very powerful and very odd game mechanic that seems quite out of sorts when compared o the other powers in the game (if you don't agree, compare this powers usefulness to any of the Grey Knights powers)

Or compare it to Doom, or Psychic Scream, or Fury/Fear, or any of the other powers that were supposed to change the face of the game eternally. Guess what? They didn't. Lash is, shockingly, a powerful, useful psychic power. It also shares space with other powerful, useful psychic powers such as Warptime or Gift of Chaos. It is only powerful in the hands of a good player, which is as it should be. Will it be nerfed? Probably not, except that they'll enforce the way it's actually written and not the way people wish it was written. When that happens it'll go back to being merely useful.

I also find it funny that there's "no real fluff explanation of value" when there was already a similar mind-controlling power in the old Codex, which nobody took because it sucked.


I don't care how effective this codex is to win with, all of the heart has been drained out of the Chaos armies. Now i can paint my marines all black and tell my opponent that they are all +1 toughness because i decided to take the mark of nurgle, but i didn't model it, as there was no real reason to, its just a piece of generic wargear at this point. No sacred squad size or weapon restriction or any uniqueness to taking the mark necessary.

Or alternately you could convert the heck out of them. Nothing stopping you. You just don't get game advantages for having pink Marines instead of red ones anymore.

Fourth
24-08-2007, 21:27
Apologies for the delay in replying. Been out of town.

And yet you don't offer a reason why you don't like the new Codex. What's so wrong with it then? I am a Chaos player also, and I'm thrilled with the removal of the most obnoxius power builds from the list. I'm thrilled with background section and the art work (not the Blanche stuff though, they look like doodles).

Give me a logical answer why you don't like the Codex if it's not about toning down the rules.

First, why? You're claiming to know why I think what I think better than I do. If you had psychic powers, I think you'd have better things to do than be here.

I hadn't wanted to get in to listing all the things about the new Codex with which I am less than pleased. I've posted it elsewhere.

As I have a spare moment, though, and have been "called out" as to why I don't much like the codex, I will mention some of them. This will be long, apologies.

Before I get into it, let me mention that a) I haven't read the book yet. My opinions of it are based purely on hearsay. But I was asked to explain those opinions, so I will. And b) As I've said repeatedly (and will probably have to say again, later) these are opinions. My opinion is not a fact (though that I have that opinion, however, is). Your opinions, dear readers, are not facts, either. What follows are my reasons for thinking what I do. I do not claim you're an idiot for not agreeing with me. Please afford me the same courtesy.

First, though, I will reiterate that changing the Chaos Lord's stats entirely to 10's wouldn't make me happier with the book. That, right there, proves that everything you have said regarding my reasons for disliking the damned thing is utterly incorrect.

Next, I'd like to take the moment to state that there are a number of things about the Codex that I like. I might mention some later, though many of 'em are the same things everyone else likes.

And, last thing before starting, power. I don't think this is really a tone-down. Certain choices have been toned-down (some justifiably, some not), others powered-up. Overall, I'd say that if one's objective is winning--screw fluff, screw fun--then this book will serve you better than did the last one.

In more detail:

Possessed. Gav was directed to make Possessed better, so that people would actually use them. I can't even describe how hard he failed. Gavtastic should become a new word describing an extreme value of "failure."

Possessed are inherently cool, and have awesome models. Why punish people for wanting to use 'em?

Even costing two (though probably more like five) points less would've fixed these. And for the record, they don't have a bonus attack. They have one attack and two CCW's, it's just figured into their profile already. On the charge--and every other time--they have just as many attacks as CSMs.

(Point of order, primarily in regards to the Possessed: People are claiming that "Chaos" players aren't very "Chaos-y" if they don't like random tables.

Please listen: I understand that the title of the Codex includes the word Chaos. If you look closely, you'll see that it isn't the only word in the title. Plus, the word "Random" does not appear in the title, anywhere. Chaos, in the Warhammer context, is the faction which serves the dark gods of the Warp, it is not "Space Marines, Only Random And Stupid."

Note that the Tau Empire codex includes the word "Empire" in the title, but Darth Vader does not appear in the codex. Nor do any Romans. Is this idea too complicated? (Close perentheses.))

Elimination of Legion rules. You're telling me there's more difference between Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Ultramarines than there is between Thousand Sons and World Eaters?

(There's often the reply that "The Imperials don't all actually need their own codex, either"--I'm okay with that. However, if someone is claiming that the difference between Dark Angels and Ultramarines is so enormous that they need their own Codex, and that the Thousand Sons and World Eaters are basically the same thing, and so should have all the same options, then I'm going to point out that "someone" is full of crap.)

Personally, I'm all for each chapter getting a Codex (though I realize that it isn't currently feasible). I also understand that the Jervification is, in theory, to make the game more accessible to children and tournament players. Being neither, I don't care.

(I wonder what the excuse for the Jervification of the Specialist Games range was? Maybe some day he'll admit that he just likes very abstract gaming. Interesting business decision, here; seeing what happened to most of the Specialist range, sales-wise, after being Jervified, I guess they wanted to give some of that to 40k. Probably decided the company was making too much money.)

Daemons. This one doesn't bother me personally (never been a fan of Daemons, they take up points that could go for more Chaos Marines), but it's a valid complaint. These things are garbage. Unless the Daemon codex works with the CSM one (Jerv said it wouldn't), then the Daemons really, really aren't worth nine points each. A couple fewer points--even two, maybe--would fix these guys.

Daemons are cool. Why punish people who want to use 'em?

Most of the rest has been adequately stated. When an Emperor's Children marine becomes a veteran, he becomes cowardly (no longer Fearless) and loses his Sonic Blaster somewhere? Likewise Terminators.

I particularly like how a Khorne Berzerker's Weapon Skill goes down when he becomes a Veteran. (They're not Chosen; who'd "choose" these losers?
"Hey, you--yeah, you, World Eater no.359--you're the guy in the army with the lowest Weapon Skill. Plus, you're a pansy who runs away sometimes. Come join the veterans--or the terminators--and get our best equipment. You'd be perfect for it.")

Now, this is all explained away very easily, when you point out that this Codex represents the small, disorganized warbands, not the Legions.

You're a small-time Chaos Lord; you can't have Emperor's Children (or any of the other Legion) terminators; they're off with their own armies. You're lucky enough that one squad of Thousand Sons was in the area and signed on with you.

Those cowardly wusses in Termie suits, they're recent defectors. What happened to their storm bolters and ass cannons, I don't know.

The problem with this explanation--which does work, though not perfectly--is that then people would have to STFU when other people point out that you can't field pure Legion armies. You can't. The title of this Codex needs to be different. Call it Codex: Renegade Chapters, and I'd object to it a lot less.

Next. Gav, why are you calling Assault Marines "Raptors?" Those are just assault marines, who defected last week. We're not fooled.
--again, I wouldn't mind this if it wasn't being billed as covering the Legions, as well. Call 'em Traitor Assault Marines, save the name "Raptors" for a Legion codex.

Even that has a few problems, though: This army seems to have all the disadvantages which Legions suffer, for being pre-heresy (no storm bolters, no asscannons, the limited tank selection, no Iron Halos, still mostly following the Codex Astartes in terms of how many of what weapons per squad, but without Combat Squads, etc) and all the disadvantages of Loyalists (no Raptors, no Legion Termies, no customizable Chaos Lords, etc)

Codex: Least Common Denominator. Thanks, Gav.:rolleyes:

On a more serious note.

Veteran Skills--even the ones that weren't that great--are gone.

(So, in your ten thousand years of fighting the Long War, I'm glad to see you've learned...nothing, soldier. Awesome. You're now just the same as the other, fresh-out-of-Scout-school, loyalist marines. Only more afraid of things.)

Marks for units. There're plus and minus aspects to the Icon system. Losing the favor of the god (or just the side-effects of worshipping it) when the Vindicare caps the icon-bearer is stupid. I know there are ways to justify it in specific circumstances.

The tricky thing about specific circumstances, though, is that they're specific. All in all, it's fairly ridiculous to think that the angry, angry disciples of the Blood God will suddenly be less angry when Steve the icon bearer falls over, as opposed to when they lose fifteen other guys from the same unit. I realize that there had to be a way do denote which squad was dedicated to which god. Simply requiring that a marked squad carry the icon of the respective patron would have been enough, and would have avoided the stupid.

Isn't it cool how Death Guard Chosen (which the fanbois claim you can field in this codex), with all their diseased bulk, suddenly turn svelte and petite and fragile if you cap Steve the Icon Bearer? Best weight loss program ever.

So what does this Codex do? Well, it doesn't let you field Legion armies--those would have Terminators and Chosen that weren't defective versions of troops choices, real Raptors, Daemonic Gifts, etc; it doesn't let you field Renegades, either. Those would still have storm bolters and asscannons and drop pods and the same tanks--and techmarines, etc. Where the heck would recent rebels get a Reaper autocannon, anyway?
(To say nothing of Daemon Princes and Defilers).

So the first of my central problems with the codex is that it doesn't actually do anything it sets out to do--it doesn't adequately (in my ever-so-humble opinion) let you represent either the Legions or the post-heresy renegades; it doesn't balance all the choices against eachother (which, according to Jerv, was the stated aim of the book), and so on. You get the point.

This aside, the other main problem--purely from my perspective--other than the fact that they got the title on Codex: Renegades wrong, is the HQ's.

(as a side note, first let me point out that isn't it awesome that all of the Daemon Prince's in the Warp bear more resemblance to each other than one Ultramarine bears to another? The Marines of the most vanilla of Chapters have far, far more variation between them than the entirety of the Warp. Ultramarines can come in power, terminator, or scout armor--DP's can't. One size fits all. There's an enormous variation in armament between different Ultramarines line troopers; zero for Daemons. The analogy can continue for ages, but I won't. Please note that this will get worse when experience proves that, statistically, 99.9% of all Daemon Princes serve Slaanesh and have the stupid psychic power. Take a survey of all Chaos tourney armies in a year or two--Fzorgle (Dakka's nickname for Lash of Submission--an appropriate one, because it's goofy and doesn't make any sense, just like the power) will be the new White Dragons. Remember those? Man, this side note's gone a little off topic. End side note.)

Next is the systemic problem. Every Chaos Lord is the same guy. Some of 'em have one mark, some have another. Essentially, you play Bob the Chaos Lord; switch his equipment and his religion, and you've just covered every option in the book.

Now, we're all fairly used to this. Every Space Marine Chaplain is the same guy, just with different toys, likewise every Autarch, etc. This is not ideal, for me. I'm more fond of a game in which everyone's army is led by a different character (and this is reflected in the rules) rather than where everyone's Space Marines are led by Bob the Space Marine, dressed up differently. (or, as is all too often the case, dressed up exactly the same.) This is as irritating to me as if every army was led by Marneus Calgar.
("oh, but they're not all the same, see! Sometimes he's in power armor, sometimes he's in terminator armor!")

Pet peeve, I guess.

Currently, the 'Nids allow you to field a character (well, freaky alien horror) that isn't Bob the Bug playing dress-up. For a time that's rapidly coming to a close, the old Chaos book let you actually use your own character, rather than get out your Ken doll and dress him up in power armor.

Daemonic gifts are easily fixed. (If you're not Gav, I guess. Sorry, cheap shot.) I can think of a couple of ways off the top of my head--in about five minutes, max--and I'm not even a professional games developer.

For example, need to fix the InfilSpeedSirenPrince? Delete Siren, jack the points on the others. Add Speed to the things that don't work with infiltrate, if you feel it necessary.

Being able to actually build your own character, rather than just dress up Bob, was truly awesome. All the AP3 bolters in the world won't make me forget that.

There's a lot more (and I haven't gotten around to mentioning what I like about the book) but it'll have to wait 'till later. Plus, this post is big enough as is.

Ravenous
24-08-2007, 21:37
Apologies for the delay in replying. Been out of town.


First, why? You're claiming to know why I think what I think better than I do. If you had psychic powers, I think you'd have better things to do than be here.

I hadn't wanted to get in to listing all the things about the new Codex with which I am less than pleased. I've posted it elsewhere.

As I have a spare moment, though, and have been "called out" as to why I don't much like the codex, I will mention some of them. This will be long, apologies.

Before I get into it, let me mention that a) I haven't read the book yet. My opinions of it are based purely on hearsay. .


And thats when I stopped reading your post.

Seriously guys, dont post complaints and whinges until you have sat down and read the codex as well as played a game with it.

Doing otherwise is just a waste of time.

The_Patriot
24-08-2007, 21:43
And thats when I stopped reading your post.

Seriously guys, dont post complaints and whinges until you have sat down and read the codex as well as played a game with it.

Doing otherwise is just a waste of time.

I did the same thing and figured it wasn't worth the effort to reply to him. I think the book is a huge improvement over the last edition and makes me tempted to start a Chaos army.

UltimateNagash
24-08-2007, 21:46
Why is Lash so unheard of? Look at Fantasy :rolleyes:

Fourth
24-08-2007, 21:48
And thats when I stopped reading your post.

Seriously guys, dont post complaints and whinges until you have sat down and read the codex as well as played a game with it.

Doing otherwise is just a waste of time.

First, note that I didn't post this until I was asked.

Second, isn't it kind of interesting that you a)admit that you haven't read what you're posting about, and then b)post purely to chastise me about posting about something I haven't read?

The Song of Spears
24-08-2007, 22:00
Isn't that weird? Making the Chaos Space Marine 'dex about Chaos Space Marines?


Yeah, and that part i like. But i still will strongly disagree with them removing the special rules for traitor legions, and not adding in rules for LatD. All of that should have been in there. I strongly believe that rules, to a degree, will allow for the physical representation of uniqueness on the table top between armies. Such as IW having a basilisk, it just makes them look and play different. So while i gree that they did well to more fully bolden the marines in this codex, they did harm in removing the unique aspects of each legion.



No, it was designed for people who did the cardinal sin around here and didn't design for the Internet crowd. I mean, we've seen it in this thread - building lists is no more! We might actually have to play the game instead of play percentages in Internet forums!


Again, good comment, but i don't agree. With how simple this codex is, the internet will likely squeeze every ounce of power out of the book, generating maybe three lists tops that are the only real useful lists vs all comers as needed in tournaments. With the restrictions of Ancient Enemies gone, every chaos army can have the sames access to the same units, and will end up a lot like the necrons, with little variance in list composition and playstyle.



Or compare it to Doom, or Psychic Scream, or Fury/Fear, or any of the other powers that were supposed to change the face of the game eternally. Guess what? They didn't. Lash is, shockingly, a powerful, useful psychic power. It also shares space with other powerful, useful psychic powers such as Warptime or Gift of Chaos. It is only powerful in the hands of a good player, which is as it should be. Will it be nerfed? Probably not, except that they'll enforce the way it's actually written and not the way people wish it was written. When that happens it'll go back to being merely useful.




I an not too sure what you meant by this statement, i think i am just having trouble following the meaning. If you simply mean that there are other psyker powers that are simple in explanation such as Lash of Torment, then i only want to emphasize the point that Last of Torment is a poor game mechanic and affects the gameplay in a way that no other power or special rule does. It has been a good long time since you could control enemy units, and it has been removed for a long time for a reason. while Veil of tears makes it hard to shoot harlequins, LoT make it easy to kill ANY unit in ANY army with ANY of your units per their needs. Thats a bit over the top to me.





Or alternately you could convert the heck out of them. Nothing stopping you. You just don't get game advantages for having pink Marines instead of red ones anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Sure sure, i could come to a tournament and thanks to the "Counts As" rules, use nothing but the Space Marine line of models as my Tyranids. Its perfectly legal. But thats not the point. Very few people, if any at all, will make wild deviations in their conversions if there is no gameplay mechanic behind it.(dont believe me? See the wide variety of necron conversions => next to none)

So yes i could make some conversions, but i can never make a basilisk. Sure i could say its a vindicator as Counts As, but some random conversion is not really the point. My Counts As Pineapple will be just as effective and act exactly the same as your vindicator. Thats Lame.

i don't care about power, winning ability or such. But i do care about variety and uniqueness in the game. And that is slowly going away.

theluc
24-08-2007, 22:19
Fourth
you havent read it and its pretty much as you say
i made the error to pre-order it and its already back on the road to the UK
only thing good yet is the new minis. awesome catalog otherwise pass it
the game and the hobby got to match and now it dont GW sells what minis or monopoly.. if they sell wargames they better adjust

gav and JJ remembers me both of a boss i had years ago, the guy says the shop gonna be a S&R center and turns out to be a chain production shop

darn my home grown is better and only wrote it in 4 days and is already playable and more balanced ... prove they didnt work much

Zerosoul
24-08-2007, 22:25
Yeah, and that part i like. But i still will strongly disagree with them removing the special rules for traitor legions, and not adding in rules for LatD. All of that should have been in there. I strongly believe that rules, to a degree, will allow for the physical representation of uniqueness on the table top between armies. Such as IW having a basilisk, it just makes them look and play different. So while i gree that they did well to more fully bolden the marines in this codex, they did harm in removing the unique aspects of each legion.

What are Lost and the Damned? Not Chaos Space Marines. What is this Codex? Chaos Space Marines. Not Codex Chaos. Not Codex CSMs and Friends. Chaos Space Marines. The focus on the list is on CSMs. I wouldn't expect to pick up the Tau list and be able to play an all-Kroot army, so why should I pick up Codex Chaos Space Marines and be able to play Chaos Guard or a daemon horde or whatever? Truth in advertising. It's a codex based around CSMs. That's what it's about. CSMs.

As for Legions, sure, they could have included rules for them - like, oh, say, the old, unbalanced, hideous hodge-podge in the back of the 3.5 ed codex? Where I could play, say, Night Lords and get a crappy Vet skill for free and an extra choice in what is far and away the worst section of the codex, or I could play IW, get the cap lifted on Oblits, get an extra choice in the best section of the codex, AND get access to a unique vehicle? Or play AL and get practically-free Infiltrate and incredibly cheap meat shields, at the cost of not being able to use what I wasn't going to use anyway? Or, gee, should I play Word Bearers and use their advantage that comes up maybe once out of every 100 games?

Now, could they have balanced them? Sure. And they could've balanced Craftworlds, too. They didn't. They're going towards a one-list-to-rule-them-all mentality, which is just fine with me. Why SHOULD I get a mechanical advantage for painting my spiky Marines silver? You can still represent IWs just like you can still represent Alaitoc or Ulthwe. You just don't get free BS4 Guardians or the Ranger disruption table or the ability to field 9 S&P Lascannons plus four pie plates. The watchword is now opportunity cost.


Again, good comment, but i don't agree. With how simple this codex is, the internet will likely squeeze every ounce of power out of the book, generating maybe three lists tops that are the only real useful lists vs all comers as needed in tournaments. With the restrictions of Ancient Enemies gone, every chaos army can have the sames access to the same units, and will end up a lot like the necrons, with little variance in list composition and playstyle.

Bull. Without taking into account Icons or special/heavies or transports, you have six troops choices(four Cults, CSMs, daemons). The CSMs can take Icons, letting you further define their roles, and all can have varying specials to one degree or another, plus transports. Gee, that's just like the Necrons with their one troop choice and "Do I take Disruption Fields or Not?" choice, isn't it?

As to the top lists - what will happen is the Bell of Lost Souls crowd will take over every tactica in the Tactics forum and say exactly what the Flavor of the Month will be(see: Lash of Submission). People who are more interested in downloading lists than trying things differently will do just that. These lists will then be the Real Ultimate Power for as long as the tactica exists, because said Bell of Lost Souls crowd isn't interested in innovation or experimentation in list design. These top lists will then enter Internet Common Knowledge as the One True Way of playing Chaos, and anyone who doesn't use the constituent units every time they play will be told what fools they are and how they need to get them(see: Harlequins). This will then percolate through the community and discussion will be stifled, thus in a sick way encouraging further netdecking. And thus, yet another True Ultimate Power list is born. Meanwhile, people in hobby stores will continue playing their unoptimized lists and doing just fine.



Very few people, if any at all, will make wild deviations in their conversions if there is no gameplay mechanic behind it.(dont believe me? See the wide variety of necron conversions => next to none)

This means people are lazy, not that we need to provide every single option under the sun to give people incentive to convert. People should do it because they love it, not because they have to to field the list they want to.


i don't care about power, winning ability or such. But i do care about variety and uniqueness in the game. And that is slowly going away.

I literally cannot fathom how uniqueness is going away when they made everything with the exception of daemons(and arguably Possessed) useful.

Sovereign
24-08-2007, 23:08
they did harm in removing the unique aspects of each legion.

the internet will likely squeeze every ounce of power out of the book, generating maybe three lists tops that are the only real useful lists vs all comers as needed in tournaments.

I disagree. As the baseline book, this is better because it opens the door to Legion-specific books down the line.

So what if the Internet generates the "perfect" lists. Not everybody is a tool and plays the internet list. Those that do, so what if they have to rebuild their army from scratch? It's not like they're real Chaos players. They'll just move on the the next broken list and the one after that.

UltimateNagash
24-08-2007, 23:11
Nobodies answered me :rolleyes: Why are people complaining?
Because IW are no longer :cheese:?
There is no rules for legions?
That Lash makes no sense? Wait, it does... :rolleyes:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2007, 00:37
I strongly approve Zerosoul point of view

@Fourth: you make some good point. Try look from the other side - is possessed unit bad developed (beside timing of the roll - i must admit it should be before battle) - no. it perfectly describe it. (just point cost is way too high - they should cost 2-4 points less). Should be Cult Terminators avilable - yes but only in CULT LEGION FORCE - it will be horrible if any Bob the Chaos Lord of Emperor's Nerf Bat chapter will have acces to most veteran Death Guard unit (imagine Thousand Sons squad nearby OMG). They leave possibility to make Legion specific codices in the FUTURE - which is good

@The Song of Spears: Every codex have only few "power builds" chaos codex is in line with every other codex ATM. And it will stay because you allways need the right amount of specific tools to win most reliable.

Lord_Crull
25-08-2007, 01:01
What are Lost and the Damned? Not Chaos Space Marines. What is this Codex? Chaos Space Marines. Not Codex Chaos. Not Codex CSMs and Friends. Chaos Space Marines. The focus on the list is on CSMs. I wouldn't expect to pick up the Tau list and be able to play an all-Kroot army, so why should I pick up Codex Chaos Space Marines and be able to play Chaos Guard or a daemon horde or whatever? Truth in advertising. It's a codex based around CSMs. That's what it's about. CSMs.

As for Legions, sure, they could have included rules for them - like, oh, say, the old, unbalanced, hideous hodge-podge in the back of the 3.5 ed codex? Where I could play, say, Night Lords and get a crappy Vet skill for free and an extra choice in what is far and away the worst section of the codex, or I could play IW, get the cap lifted on Oblits, get an extra choice in the best section of the codex, AND get access to a unique vehicle? Or play AL and get practically-free Infiltrate and incredibly cheap meat shields, at the cost of not being able to use what I wasn't going to use anyway? Or, gee, should I play Word Bearers and use their advantage that comes up maybe once out of every 100 games?

Now, could they have balanced them? Sure. And they could've balanced Craftworlds, too. They didn't. They're going towards a one-list-to-rule-them-all mentality, which is just fine with me. Why SHOULD I get a mechanical advantage for painting my spiky Marines silver? You can still represent IWs just like you can still represent Alaitoc or Ulthwe. You just don't get free BS4 Guardians or the Ranger disruption table or the ability to field 9 S&P Lascannons plus four pie plates. The watchword is now opportunity cost.



Bull. Without taking into account Icons or special/heavies or transports, you have six troops choices(four Cults, CSMs, daemons). The CSMs can take Icons, letting you further define their roles, and all can have varying specials to one degree or another, plus transports. Gee, that's just like the Necrons with their one troop choice and "Do I take Disruption Fields or Not?" choice, isn't it?

As to the top lists - what will happen is the Bell of Lost Souls crowd will take over every tactica in the Tactics forum and say exactly what the Flavor of the Month will be(see: Lash of Submission). People who are more interested in downloading lists than trying things differently will do just that. These lists will then be the Real Ultimate Power for as long as the tactica exists, because said Bell of Lost Souls crowd isn't interested in innovation or experimentation in list design. These top lists will then enter Internet Common Knowledge as the One True Way of playing Chaos, and anyone who doesn't use the constituent units every time they play will be told what fools they are and how they need to get them(see: Harlequins). This will then percolate through the community and discussion will be stifled, thus in a sick way encouraging further netdecking. And thus, yet another True Ultimate Power list is born. Meanwhile, people in hobby stores will continue playing their unoptimized lists and doing just fine.




This means people are lazy, not that we need to provide every single option under the sun to give people incentive to convert. People should do it because they love it, not because they have to to field the list they want to.



I literally cannot fathom how uniqueness is going away when they made everything with the exception of daemons(and arguably Possessed) useful.

You know I look at you post and then look back at my LatD army. I look at your post and then look back at my Night Lords army which I spent so much time to convert. Then I look at my Emperor's Children.

And then I grab my baseball bat. Where do you live?

That was the most insulting post I have ever read.

Oh Fourth? I completely agree with evereything you said.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2007, 01:28
@Lord_Crull: Sad truth that LatD dont belong here :( (looking at his Obtenebra PDF ... )

I can understand that EC doesn't get proper (with this one you can play as EC but is is difficult and not always in line with their fluff - not every EC is noise marine - right - every is slaanesh worshiper - right - but there are no Noise Marine Bikers/vehicles/Terminators/lords beside lucius - but there are EC Noise Marine Bikers/vehicles/Terminators/lords and basic Noise Marines) army list. But wouldn't stand if someone will have NM Terminators AND Khorne Berzerkers - i'd rather like to see any ...

Your Night Lords army is perfectly fitting - where is the problem - some conversion will dont have in game effect? you will not benefit from it?

Lord_Crull
25-08-2007, 02:01
Well I just had an awesome furies conversion ready. And now modeling them with wings and kind of wasted now.

Really bug me that Jervis himself said that the new deamons will not be comatible with the new chaos codex. Word Bearers you guys are screwed.

That and the general condecending attidute that some people display here. Would it kill you to be polite? That way there will be no mroe outbursts like mine.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2007, 02:07
if only furies you have to wait till daemon codex to use them or use them as bland underpowered daemon counter attack unit (only worthwile job for them now but not so often usable in NL army)

well Gav screw summoned daemon cost and battlefield role :/ true

Wraithseer
25-08-2007, 02:09
Ok, but how long will i have to wait before I can use my thousand dollar emperors children army again? My forgeworld keeper uses psych abilitys that no longer exist an my sonic dreads and preds no longer are possible. I don't mind if this codex is for the rabble, but I want cult specific codexes. :skull:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2007, 02:15
Ok, but how long will i have to wait before I can use my thousand dollar emperors children army again? My forgeworld keeper uses psych abilitys that no longer exist an my sonic dreads and preds no longer are possible. I don't mind if this codex is for the rabble, but I want cult specific codexes. :skull:

orks players waited ten years :/

hopefully FW will take care of all legions (not every person play marine and i'd like to see rather less marine meta than it is now) and GW will be free to re-do:
-Codex:Tyranids (interial and exterial imbalance)
-Codex:Dark Eldars (how long ... )
-Codex:Inquisition (they deserve one badly - just dont make 3 very similiar codices - sadly space marines already have 5 :/ )
-Codex:Necrons (they need face-lift)

Lord_Crull
25-08-2007, 02:24
orks players waited ten years :/

hopefully FW will take care of all legions (not every person play marine and i'd like to see rather less marine meta than it is now) and GW will be free to re-do:
-Codex:Tyranids (interial and exterial imbalance)
-Codex:Dark Eldars (how long ... )
-Codex:Inquisition (they deserve one badly - just dont make 3 very similiar codices - sadly space marines already have 5 :/ )
-Codex:Necrons (they need face-lift)

I feel fo them. ( The necrons badly need a new codex) But I also feel for myself and my Emperor's Children army that I can no langer use. Ditto for my LatD.

Wraithseer
25-08-2007, 02:34
I played dark eldar... I started playing chaos because of the new Daemonette models, I've got like 60 of them now. the new codex has slashed and destroyed my army in ways that I find hard to adequately vocalize. and now the daemon codex will not work with the marine one. What has the new codex given me in trade for my units...terminators that run; veterans with only one vetran skill, that also run; loss of my ability to customize my lord, this codex has taken away what I liked most about my army and given me drek in return. If Games workshop does a simar job on codex daemons or perpetrates the most cardinal of sins by making the new daemonettes kid friendly, I will Murder some one.:mad: The ability to choose and customize our forces was one of the best things about chaos, now its gone and the tyranid and marine players are laughing at us.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-08-2007, 02:55
I played dark eldar... I started playing chaos because of the new Daemonette models, I've got like 60 of them now. the new codex has slashed and destroyed my army in ways that I find hard to adequately vocalize. and now the daemon codex will not work with the marine one. What has the new codex given me in trade for my units...terminators that run; veterans with only one vetran skill, that also run; loss of my ability to customize my lord, this codex has taken away what I liked most about my army and given me drek in return. If Games workshop does a simar job on codex daemons or perpetrates the most cardinal of sins by making the new daemonettes kid friendly, I will Murder some one.:mad: The ability to choose and customize our forces was one of the best things about chaos, now its gone and the tyranid and marine players are laughing at us.

you will still have your lovely daemonettes i am right? (kid - friendly daemonette:wtf::wtf::wtf: loathe the very idea !)

it is not set in stone that they wont be able to ally each other

the change is because mark of slaanesh change again - they are perfectly fluffy EC choosen/terminators who are not Noise Marine.

i dont think that GW will ever release Codex for god specific legion - in fact i dont want them to do so - already is high number of armies avilable - it doesn't mean of course i dont want such codex - quite the opposite - but from Forge World. As every variant list. Forgeworld make EC models so it will be good if they will also create rules for them!

you still can create good tournament army with EC - it will lack some choices but it is not that bad either

Lord_Crull
25-08-2007, 03:03
you will still have your lovely daemonettes i am right? (kid - friendly daemonette:wtf::wtf::wtf: loathe the very idea !)

it is not set in stone that they wont be able to ally each other

the change is because mark of slaanesh change again - they are perfectly fluffy EC choosen/terminators who are not Noise Marine.

i dont think that GW will ever release Codex for god specific legion - in fact i dont want them to do so - already is high number of armies avilable - it doesn't mean of course i dont want such codex - quite the opposite - but from Forge World. As every variant list. Forgeworld make EC models so it will be good if they will also create rules for them!

you still can create good tournament army with EC - it will lack some choices but it is not that bad either

Actually Jervis said outright in a White Dwarf that the new daemon codex is not compatible with the new chaos codex. You can go and see it your self. It was an issue or two ago.

Wraithseer
25-08-2007, 03:04
When I heard jarvis talk in Baltimore, I thought it would be like the fantasy army books, one for marines and one for daemons but ultimately nearly the same list. the fantasy version with its changes in what is a troop choice or a special choice it cool, if the new codexes were more like that I would be happy, if my army has been cleft in twain like i think it has my satisfaction with the "new direction" is diminished. I think that an army with a daemon HQ should be different than one with a chaos lord, thats fine, I just think that they should both just be chaos.

Rioghan Murchadha
25-08-2007, 04:49
rioghan
GW needs us to buy to survive , but instead of fixing whats wrong they redo marines again and again...there is far eenuff marines players out there, i would like see more orks players but they been left in the dark and th modeel are in bad need of a update same goes for dark eldar

and those shelved minis keep thm they will see some action , may be in long but they will come back sooner or later
Of course they do, but what they forget is that a typical vet like me will keep buying NEW armies when they're finished the one they're currently working on. In the last geez.. 17 years I've been playing now, I've collected let's see.. probably somewhere around 15 different large armies for various of their game systems. I'm still not done.


That is nothing new. GW has been doing that with every new editon of both core games for almost two decades now. For example in the RT list a bare bones squad of IG was 200 points for 10 models including a lascannon and grenade launcher. I don't have an IG codex handy, but I'm sure that is almost double what they cost now. A ten man Space Marine tactical Squad with missle launcher and flamer was 250 points. The same unit today runs you 166 points.

Fantasy has seen similar decreases. In the early '90s a bare bones orc boy costs 8.5 points, while today the same orc (handweapon, light armour, shield) runs 6 points. High Elf silver helms, fully kitted out used to be 45 points each. Now they are 23 points a model.

Characters and big monster have seen big points decreases in both systems as well.

I would have less problem with this if GW were more honest about their motivation for lowering the points values. Hell, I would be happier if they just didn't comment on it at all. But instead they spin it, to make it sound like a good thing and in doing so insult our intelligence. In a WD article detailing the change over from one fantasy edition to another (the exact one escapes me right now and is really not important) GW related in their usual excited puppy editorial style that this change in points costs had been done for the benefit of players, because they knew how everyone would love to play with more models on the boards!

"Trench Raider"
Oh, again, I know.. I've seen it happen.. Best had to be the great heavy cav decrease of 6th ed fantasy. (Coinciding perfectly with the great price jack of regiment boxes of 6th ed fantasy.. :rolleyes:)


Simple answer - DON'T PLAY IT. PLAY WITH LESS POINTS. Problem solved.

GW can't make you do anything. I am disappointed with Trench Raider, an intelligent, astute if somewhat acidic person, that he can't close his ears to marketing. Of course GW wants you to buy more minis - it's their business.

The real issue with the points drop is this - Players want to play bigger games. GW wants their main core rule system to remain relatively constant. GW wants to make more money. Answer? Lower the points cost on things and make sure the game runs the same. The other answer is a new game set at a playing limit of 3000+. Like Apocalypse will be.

If you want to play with your old 2000pt army but now it's only worth 1769 then play 1769 aside. Where is the problem?

This point goes with the above as well as Trench Raider's comments. No, they can't 'make me' buy apocalypse, or play bigger battles, nor can they 'make me' buy more minis.. I WANT to collect more models. However, I don't want to have to add to what is essentially a gimmick army for me, just to keep it at the same points value.

It also wouldn't be so bad if the core game systems were better built to handle large games. Yes, there is no upper limit on fantasy, but it gets very tedious at extremely large point values even with experienced players. 40k without apocalypse simply can't handle gigantic points games. The systems are extremely inelegant when all is said and done.

The problem with playing my old 2k pts army as a new 1765 pt army is that I wanted to collect the army up to a set points value which has now been changed for no good reason. Thousand Sons were popular enough when they sucked under the 3.5 codex. They didn't need to overall reduce the points value of the army while making it better at the same time.

theluc
25-08-2007, 05:27
glad to hear we in same club since im in the hobby also for 17tears ( tears for the wallet that is ) still got some of those named marines and a carrot missile launcher LOL

im not where near your collection but had alot at one time but sold all the lot
still got some heavy gear and my chaos

would like other stuff but for the moment got tons of painting to do

well all got painting to do

in the grim darkness of the far futur there is only painting :P

Zerosoul
25-08-2007, 06:46
You know I look at you post and then look back at my LatD army. I look at your post and then look back at my Night Lords army which I spent so much time to convert. Then I look at my Emperor's Children.

And then I grab my baseball bat. Where do you live?


Yeah, it's pretty insulting to hear that the old Legion rules were broken hodgepodges of idiocy and people should convert because they enjoy it, not to get a game advantage. I totally understand that reaction.

Or, you know, not.

So, why SHOULD I pick up Codex: Chaos Space Marines and get a list of Chaos Guard with mutie buddies? They aren't Chaos Space Marines. Too many people saw the title of the Codex and stopped reading after the first word. It's not a codex for all of Chaos. It's a codex for something very specific - Chaos Space Marines. Do LatD deserve their own list? Sure. Is the place for it in Codex: Chaos Space Marines? As surely as the place for the IG codex is in Codex: Space Marines, yes.

Bassik
25-08-2007, 07:33
@ Rioghan: The game might be a bit annoying on large scales, but even the standard point costs for both settings have a much larger range of models then any other mini game I know.
Designing a game as complex as this is HARD. I think they did a bloody good job, it plays quikly (like, compared to Confrontation... awesome models, but Damn. Slow. It can take you a hour to play with 10 models each side, compared to GW's 50-200 models each side lasting 3 hours) while remaining fun.



"Actually Jervis said outright in a White Dwarf that the new daemon codex is not compatible with the new chaos codex. You can go and see it your self. It was an issue or two ago."

That sucks.:cries:

UltimateNagash
25-08-2007, 07:40
He didn't say that though :confused:

Spider
25-08-2007, 08:17
This thread is funny. Almost every poster that is criticising the new list is doing so because of the apparent lack of anything to do with the Legions (those things are are fundamental to chaos in 40k), a lack of fluff, a lack of flavour, lack of variety. No one is decrying a loss of power.

But those arguing that the new list is good are doing so by saying, in effect "you are a power gamer. Suck it up. LOL."

Frankly the weight of logic and reason doesn't support the second arguement well.

Could a person who thinks well of the new neutered list give a better arguement?

But given the 200+ posts so far have been fairly free of convincing arguements as to why the new book is worthwhile i don't hold out much hope.

I look forward to the next chaos redux that will be released in a few years...there will be one:)

UltimateNagash
25-08-2007, 08:23
OK, a) the list keeps in line with the adjustments made to DA...
b) It does reduce the stupid IW builds with 9 Oblits, 4 Basys, a Speed Prince and 2 min/max las/plas squads. Which was abuse...
c) OK, lets see, I like Spawn, the Psychic Power updates (yes, even Lash - it does make sense), no crazy Mark stuff... look, the old Codex was screwy, with lots of errors - 3 editions! :rolleyes: Only because of the :cheese: players and their attempts to powergame...
d) I've got to go to work. Will reply more later :p

theluc
25-08-2007, 14:20
i just dont like it...power gamer wet dream take everthing u want 9 oblis 2 lash o dp slaanesh icon... khorne +1a termies..

it screamm cheese and boring

we gonna see same lists again and again... thats what im complaining about

so that why ill paint and build a titan as center piece

so im done with this thread

itcamefromthedeep
25-08-2007, 14:33
The fluff works. It does not focus on the legons, but they are there, each getting almost a full page of fluff (the rest of the page on rules). Each unit gets its page in the bestiary, which is more then you can say for Mortal and Daemon units in Fantasy. The fluff is fine.

As for lack of flavor, that only only really works if by "flavor" you mean "complexity". There is a lack of complexity in the list. I agree that there should be more options for a Chaos Lord and Daemon Prince, but I doubt that there are many models that have been invalidated by the new codex. Flavor comes from the modelling, the painting, and the history. You don't get to fully customise the model for game purposes, but neither do I.

I have a Wraithlord who was a formerly a Fire Dragon Exarch. There is no heavy weapon equivalent of a fusion gun for the Eldar, so I just gave it a starcannon and two flamers. The model has the Fire Dragon rune on its head with the ghost warrior symbol above it. THAT is flavor. If I wanted to do a former Dire Avenger it would likely be two shuriken catapults and a Wraithsword (like the diresword that Exarchs can use), painted with the Dire Avenger symbol.

The new Chaos book gives quite a bit more tactical variety because of the marks on ever-before-marked units. Bikers of Tzeench offer some interesting new opportunities, and Space Marines of Nurgle allow you to walk up the board with a squad of 20 and expect to survive. Tzeench Havocs can take some fire from MEQ-killers. So, there is a wider range of tactical opportunities in the newer list. I would rather have more things to do then more ways to do the same thing, so I prefer this list to its predecessor.

Lord_Crull
25-08-2007, 15:13
The fluff works. It does not focus on the legons, but they are there, each getting almost a full page of fluff (the rest of the page on rules). Each unit gets its page in the bestiary, which is more then you can say for Mortal and Daemon units in Fantasy. The fluff is fine.

As for lack of flavor, that only only really works if by "flavor" you mean "complexity". There is a lack of complexity in the list. I agree that there should be more options for a Chaos Lord and Daemon Prince, but I doubt that there are many models that have been invalidated by the new codex. Flavor comes from the modelling, the painting, and the history. You don't get to fully customise the model for game purposes, but neither do I.

I have a Wraithlord who was a formerly a Fire Dragon Exarch. There is no heavy weapon equivalent of a fusion gun for the Eldar, so I just gave it a starcannon and two flamers. The model has the Fire Dragon rune on its head with the ghost warrior symbol above it. THAT is flavor. If I wanted to do a former Dire Avenger it would likely be two shuriken catapults and a Wraithsword (like the diresword that Exarchs can use), painted with the Dire Avenger symbol.

The new Chaos book gives quite a bit more tactical variety because of the marks on ever-before-marked units. Bikers of Tzeench offer some interesting new opportunities, and Space Marines of Nurgle allow you to walk up the board with a squad of 20 and expect to survive. Tzeench Havocs can take some fire from MEQ-killers. So, there is a wider range of tactical opportunities in the newer list. I would rather have more things to do then more ways to do the same thing, so I prefer this list to its predecessor.

Are you reading the same codex? I looked at the codex recently. The legions barely get a mention. The only legion that is mentioned in heavy detail is the Black Legion. The Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Leigon get's a few lines. The God's Legions do nto get a page to themselves. The Night Lords do not get a page to themselves.

In a year all armies at the tournies will look the same. 2 Slaanesh DP with lash. Tzeentch Termies, Bezerkers as troops, and Nurgle Termies.

Completly guts the fluff and loots it's corpse.

itcamefromthedeep
25-08-2007, 17:50
I seem to remember a page for each unit in the army list, so that means one for each Cult infantry unit. Sorry, when I said Legion I meant Cult. The others do indeed get little mention. I don't have it in front of me, so I could very well be wrong.

I suppose if you want to hear about the Traitor leagions all you will have to go on is a couple lines... and a novel series. Yeah, the fluff in the army book was reduced, but you have a whole *******' line of novels about the Horus Heresy. My High elves have at most 5 paragraphs per unit entry, the vast majority about a third of a page, maybe 150 words. Each of the Horus Heresy books is what, 200 pages? There is a wealth of fluff out there for the Legions. It is not all in the books by any stretch of the imagination, But I have not once heard any of you mention a review of the book series, nor have I heard any cries of joy at having such a wealth of new fluff at your fingertips.

-The Princes are not all that great, particularly when they can be shot at so much. Sorcerers are more likely. I think that Summoned Greater Demons do what you want a Daemon Prince to do, just without getting shot up as much.
-Tzeench Termies are nice, but Tzeench bikers are more interesting, particularly if you want to summon a Greater Demon with the squad.
-I like that Plague Marines are practically immune to small arms fire, so they just might see use.
-I also think that you will see more Nurgle Havocs in a tourney list then Nurgle Termies. Most things shooting at Termies have a really high Strength anyway. The near immunity to Howling Banshees is cool, but cool enough to pass up an extra Attack with those power fists? Or Initiative 5 on those Power Weapons?
-Vindicators are nice, but I don't see all that many in Space Marine lists. I guess Daemonic Possesion makes a difference.

It is not quite so obvious what you will see at tournament lists just yet. Khorne Berzerkers may seem obvious to you, but Rubric Marines seem just as obvious to others. Give it some time and experience.