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GodHead
11-04-2005, 13:20
Since Queek locked my post on the Warhammer forum, so I've decided to post it everywhere I can now...

I know everyone is familiar with Tomb Swarms, and figures they take wounds from Combat Resolution since they are Undead, but they are also Swarms, and in the Tomb Swarms description of Swarm, it states "Tomb Swarms are Unbreakable and cannot be joined by characters." and in my opinion, this fact of being Unbreakable would replace the Break Tests part of the Undead special rule, just as the Unbreakable part of any other Swarm replaces the regular Break test rules.

For comparison, it does not list Unbreakable as part of the special rules for Rat Swarms in the unit description either, but merely has "Rat Swarms are Unbreakable and cannot be joined by characters." as part of the Swarm rule for them as well, and no one forces them to take Break Tests...

Furthermore the Nurgling Swarm rule states: "Nurglings cannot be joined by characters. Nurglings are not Unbreakable like other swarms, but follow the normal Daemonic Instability rules."

Even more evidence is the Spirit Host's Swarm rules also lack any reference to being Unbreakable.

The issue here is not, as Queek thinks, whether Tomb Swarms are Undead, they are undoubtedly, the question is whether the special rule of them being Unbreakable through Swarm somehow effects their Undead Break Test rule, and prevents them from crumbling through combat resolution.

taer
11-04-2005, 14:28
Yes, they are just plainly unbreakable since they have neither the undead or undead construc special rule in their army list, but rather the swarm rule. This Queek guy you hate is wrong.

GodHead
11-04-2005, 14:48
No, they do have the Undead rule, but they also have the Swarm rule, which states they are Unbreakable.

taer
11-04-2005, 14:52
Oh, they have the undead rule in the army list entry, but not in the bestiary. How F@!#$%@ helpful. Sometimes, I think GW needs to get an editor who doesn't have his head up his ass.

That said, I'd just go with normal unbreakable.

m1s1n
11-04-2005, 16:21
I don't have my Tomb Kings book nearby for reference, but I don't think the swarms are Undead, however, I'm not sure if they have the Alive! rule either. Anyway, as far as I know the rules just have them as being Unbreakable--which means they do not have the normal crumbling rules.

Sylass
11-04-2005, 16:27
At the start of the TK armybook it's said that all troops that are listed in the army follow the same rules (the ones listed on the following 2 pages).

In my opinion that's enough to make tomb swarms undead.

taer
11-04-2005, 17:23
Well, remeber, Undead covers a whole host of rules, and not just the modified break test thing. So, I think since it says they are unbreakable specifically, I think it supercedes the break test rules for being undead. But, again, if GW wasn't vague, it would be much easier.

GodHead
11-04-2005, 18:20
I am not arguing that they are not Undead, but they DO have the Unbreakable rule as stated in their Swarm rule on page 28: "Tomb Swarms are Unbreakable and cannot be joined by characters."

This aspect of them being Unbreakable IN ADDITION to being Undead is what poses the question.

MarcoPollo
11-04-2005, 18:28
I agree with Sylass above. I usually play against TK and VC and we always use the crumbling effect on them.

Don't the Bat swarms also crumble from combat resolution in VC? I would think that the tomb swarms would also follow the same guidelines.

GodHead
11-04-2005, 18:30
No, Bats are Alive! and Spirit Hosts don't have Unbreakable included as part of their Swarm rules. Tomb Swarms are the only thing the entire game that is both Unbreakable and Undead.

taer
11-04-2005, 18:31
I agree with Sylass above. I usually play against TK and VC and we always use the crumbling effect on them.

Don't the Bat swarms also crumble from combat resolution in VC? I would think that the tomb swarms would also follow the same guidelines.


Nope, Bat Swarms are Alive!, so don't crumble. Spirit hosts do crumble, but they are neither swarms, nor unbreakable.

GodHead
11-04-2005, 18:40
Actually Spirit Hosts are Swarms, but not Unbreakable, as it is not included in their rules for Swarms. They do have a rule for Swarms, but it is different, like Nurglings, who also have a different Swarms rule, and are also not Unbreakable.

BullBuchanan
11-04-2005, 21:56
We always play with TK swarms crumbling. Honestly it would be absolutely ridiculous to play any other way. A unit of 5 bases would hold up any unts for pretty much the entire game. at an average of 3 wounds a turn it would take you about 8 turns to get out of combat.

taer
12-04-2005, 00:31
We always play with TK swarms crumbling. Honestly it would be absolutely ridiculous to play any other way. A unit of 5 bases would hold up any unts for pretty much the entire game. at an average of 3 wounds a turn it would take you about 8 turns to get out of combat.


In otherwords, they would be exactly the same as the majority of swarms in the game (Rat swarms, Snotlings, Jungle swarms, etc.) ?

BullBuchanan
12-04-2005, 01:44
well i'm not sure about that as ive never played against any other swarm, but if they all play the same way minus the crumble that would be ridiculous. By far the cheapest unit ive ever played against.

taer
12-04-2005, 02:27
That's why people love their swarms!

PelsBoble
12-04-2005, 12:19
Hm. My nurligings are a "swarm" but even tho they are unbreakable they have to take that instability test and take wounds if they fail it. So hy doesnt this count for TK swarms?

GodHead
12-04-2005, 13:10
Better read their Swarm description again. Because last time I checked "Nurglings are not Unbreakable like other swarms, but follow the normal Daemonic Instability rules." answered your question nicely...

anarchistica
12-04-2005, 13:32
The answer is so simple you will slap yourself on the forehead.

From the BRB: "Unbreakable units don't break."

That's it. They don't break. It does not say they ignore the break test, do not roll for it or whatever. It simply says they don't break. Since units who lose combat have to take a break test, Unbreakable units have to do it too. However, since they don't break, you normally skip this because it won't effect them anyway. Cue Tomb Swarms. The result from the break test will affect them, since they are Undead. Undead don't break, but they still take the test to see how many Wounds they lose. So Tomb Swarms simply work like any other Undead and you have to roll break tests for them to see how many Wounds they lose.

:cool:

Atrahasis
12-04-2005, 13:42
The answer is so simple you will slap yourself on the forehead.

From the BRB: "Unbreakable units don't break."

That's it.

No it aint. Read on : "...unbreakable troops continue to fight on regardless of results."

Unbreakable troops disregard combat resolution.

I can't see where you've pulled "Unbreakable units don't break" from either, as it isn't on page 112, where the rules for Unbreakable are to be found.

Avian
12-04-2005, 14:23
No it aint. Read on : "...unbreakable troops continue to fight on regardless of results."
That's just a continuation of the sentence where it says they don't break from combat.
There is nothing stopping them from dying due to CR in the unbreakable rules. It's unbreakable, not uncrumbleable.

The Khemri book lists the rules that apply to all units in the army, one of those rules is crumbling. It does not say that there are exceptions, like the Vampire book does.

Atrahasis
12-04-2005, 17:49
There is nothing stopping them from dying due to CR in the unbreakable rules. It's unbreakable, not uncrumbleable.

The rules say that they disregard combat results. If you make them crumble, then you have not disregarded combat results.

MarcoPollo
12-04-2005, 18:19
If I'm not mistaken, all TK units and characters are undead and so suffer from crumbling. This makes sense as the unit is pretty cheap, can come up from pretty much anywhere on the battle pitch and can allocate 10 poison attacks at pretty much any model in a unit. This will kill most mages and even some wimpy characters. Perhaps even autobreak weaker units if the swarms are big enough. Now you want to try and tell me that they also do not crumble so that they can hold up the most powerful units in a game. At such a cheap point cost, this is reminiscent of the old 5th edition cloak of feathers that allowed you to stop the movement of almost any type of unit. (remember that piece of garbage). Anybody who used to use that definition of the old cloak of feathers was shunned by our gaming group and the same goes for the Tomb Swarms.

I'm sure that the unbreakable only rules is not what GW meant for such a cheap unit that can already do so much. GW as they have stated in many white dwarfs is about providing choice to an army and with the uncrumbleable rules that some suggest, would make the tomb swarms an obvious no-brainer choice.

GodHead
12-04-2005, 18:40
Yes. We know they are Undead. The question arises because nothing in the entire game is both Undead and Unbreakable except Tomb Swarms. Everything else has been carefully made either not Undead by being Alive! and Unbreakable, or Undead and not Unbreakable.

As there are more aspects to being Undead than simply taking wounds from Combat Resolution, there is theoretically a reason why the Tomb Swarms would be both Undead and Unbreakable, that is, to still allow them to be targetted by spells that are Undead only, while also making them not suffer wounds from combat resolution.

Admittedly I don't see this as being the intention of the designer, and Unbreakable swarms that can be brought back by Djedras Summoning does seem a little too strong. However it does represent a unique instance in all of Warhammer, one that looked like they were carefully avoiding up to this point, which does lend evidence to the idea that they had some purpose for making Tomb Swarms Unbreakable, while carefully making Nurglings and Spirit Hosts not Unbreakable...

If it was the intention, then a FAQ answer should be in order, if it wasn't the intention, then an Errata entry should be in order.

anarchistica
12-04-2005, 18:47
No it aint. Read on : "...unbreakable troops continue to fight on regardless of results."
And you've only proven me right. They fight on regardless of the result. Indeed. It does not say you skip the test, just that they fight on. So you take the test and anything that is Unbreakable just fights on regardless of the result and anything that is Undead loses Wounds as described in their rules.


Unbreakable troops disregard combat resolution.
Ha! Gotcha. That's not said anywhere. They fight on regardless of the result...which doesn't mean they don't take a break test.


I can't see where you've pulled "Unbreakable units don't break" from either, as it isn't on page 112, where the rules for Unbreakable are to be found.
The actual wording is "These troops never break in close combat."

Atrahasis
13-04-2005, 08:33
Ha! Gotcha. That's not said anywhere. They fight on regardless of the result...which doesn't mean they don't take a break test.

So Unbreakable troops take a break test now?

"fight on regardless of results" == "disregard results" where "results" == "combat resolution"

McMullet
13-04-2005, 10:18
I'm not going to get into the rules interpretation here, but we can get an idea of the intent of the games developers when playtesting from the points costs I would say. If you compare tomb swarms with a similar unit, let's say jungle swarms, you get the following:

Jungle Swarms: Cost 60 points, same stats as Tomb Swarms except they have +1 movement, but they also don't cause fear, and don't have "It came from below". Tomb Swarms cost 45 points.

A bit less movement is a slight disadvantage. "It came from below" is pretty good, especially combined with causing fear. I would say that, based on these comparisons (ignoring crumbling), it's pretty obvious that Tomb Swarms should cost more than Jungle Swarms. However, if Tomb Swarms crumble, they should indeed cost less, as they become far less effective. Since they do cost less, that means they should crumble.

Atrahasis
13-04-2005, 11:03
A bit less movement is a slight disadvantage.

Tomb swarms move 7" less a turn without magical intervention. Hardly "a bit less".


"It came from below" is pretty good, especially combined with causing fear. I would say that, based on these comparisonsCross-list comparisons are ill advised at the best of times, but comparing a cold-blooded army's swarm with an Undead army's swarm is taking things beyond ridiculous. The points costs of units are balanced according to the other units, magic, and abilities in the army. As soon as you can take Tomb Swarms in a Lizardmen army alongside skink skirmishers and temple guard then the comparison will be valid. Until then, it is pointless speculation.

McMullet
13-04-2005, 11:12
Tomb swarms move 7" less a turn without magical intervention. Hardly "a bit less".

Cross-list comparisons are ill advised at the best of times, but comparing a cold-blooded army's swarm with an Undead army's swarm is taking things beyond ridiculous. The points costs of units are balanced according to the other units, magic, and abilities in the army. As soon as you can take Tomb Swarms in a Lizardmen army alongside skink skirmishers and temple guard then the comparison will be valid. Until then, it is pointless speculation.
Both fair points. It was just a thought to throw into the discusion, I'm not suggesting that it was in any way concrete. Although I don't see why comparing a cold-blooded army with an undead army is more ridiculous than any other; in general, similar units from very different armies have similar points costs - such as plague rat swarms, 5 points over a jungle swarm gives you +1 movement, and no other differences.

Avian
13-04-2005, 11:45
Off-topic:
A units's cost is generally based on it's stats and any non-race specific rules it may have. Race-specific rules generally don't affect the cost and seems to be what is used to balance the units compared to others.


Methinks Athrasis is assuming too much which is not explicitly stated.

anarchistica
13-04-2005, 14:13
So Unbreakable troops take a break test now?

"fight on regardless of results" == "disregard results" where "results" == "combat resolution"
Now? They've always taken those. And no, that other thing won't do. As it says nowhere they don't take break tests, it means that they fight on regardless of the results of the break tests.

Now unless you can point out where it says Unbreakable troops don't take a break test, i win. :p

Atrahasis
13-04-2005, 14:29
Now? They've always taken those. And no, that other thing won't do. As it says nowhere they don't take break tests, it means that they fight on regardless of the results of the break tests.

Now unless you can point out where it says Unbreakable troops don't take a break test, i win. :p

Page 270 : Unbreakable troops never need to take Break tests.

Tomb Swarms don't suffer wounds from Combat Resolution. They fight on regardless of results.

anarchistica
13-04-2005, 14:43
You dare refer to that? It's so...old. :p

And it says they don't need to, not that they don't.

I'm sure the intention is clear, but GW messed up, again.

Festus
13-04-2005, 14:43
Well, anar...

...it seems you lose this one. ;)

But I am still not with Atrahasis here.

The reasoning goes: As they never take Break Tests, they don't crumble. But NO Undead unit takes Break Tests. Never. Ever.

So they all were exempt from crumbling?

No: You just calculate the modifier for the Break Test and lose that many W from the losing Undead unit, right? So the TS should suffer accordingly, as they are Undead.

Greetings
Festus

anarchistica
13-04-2005, 14:50
Ah yes, my point didn't matter anyway. They simply lose 1 Wound per point they lose combat by, break tests and whether you take them doesn't matter.

Now unless you can quote that Unbreakable units ignore Combat Resolution, i.e. not the result of it, i still win. :p ;)

Atrahasis
13-04-2005, 14:57
The reasoning goes: As they never take Break Tests, they don't crumble. But NO Undead unit takes Break Tests. Never. Ever.Obviously, if you misrepresent my argument as something you know to be flawed, finding the flaw is easy. The above was never my reasoning or my argument.


Now unless you can quote that Unbreakable units ignore Combat Resolution, i.e. not the result of itWhat is combat resolution if not the result of combat?

Festus
13-04-2005, 15:37
The result of combat IMO is the guys (critters, whatever) lying dead on the ground. And the effects on morale it has.

Combat Resolution is a game term which gives a modifier to a Break Test that has to follow after normal rules.

The Break Test doesn't apply, but the Resolution does.

Otherwise you could argue that even the wounds suffered are the result of combat and thus don't matter.

Greetings
Festus

WLBjork
14-04-2005, 10:30
I'm with Festus and anarchistica on this one.

Until such time as it specifically states that units that are unbreakable ignore combat resolution, then an undead unit that loses takes the CR as extra wounds.

Of course, had GW simply put "Unbreakable units automatically pass any Psycology or Break tests that they are required to take", we'd have far less fun ;)

Atrahasis
14-04-2005, 11:25
Until such time as it specifically states that units that are unbreakable ignore combat resolution, then an undead unit that loses takes the CR as extra wounds.

I'm arguing that it does - Unbreakable troops "fight on regardless of results".

I'm not seriously suggesting that the intent was for Tomb Swarms to be unstoppable healable poisonous units of doom, but it can be argued :D

PelsBoble
14-04-2005, 16:56
But for example the Hellcannon is unbreakable. Still its a deamon and has to take an instability test if it loses combat and then take wounds if it fails its test. IT will fight on of course if it still is alive, but i guess the same would count for the tomb swarms?

BullBuchanan
14-04-2005, 20:16
I think somebody needs to call RuleBoyz and put an end to this one ;) All swarms are unbreakable except for those specifically stated right? Well then its probably just a redundancy. As with all GW products anything written in the army books supercedes anything written in the main rulebook.

Thus when you say that even if a unit is unbreakable(a wahrahhmer rulebook rule) they still suffer wounds from crumbling(a TK army book rule) unless it states specificall that they dont.

Those same three sentences everyone's been spouting off is just the definition of unbreakable, not the definition in this particular instance.

MarcoPollo
14-04-2005, 20:20
So it seems to me that most people would think that the tombs swarm takes CR wounds like any other undead unit. But if you really wanted to be a rules lawyer, you could also argue the ambiguity of the rules put out by GW in the fact that they perhaps could be considered as not taking CR damage at all.

I hope that any of my opponents who play tomb kings will not try to promote this ambiguity. It really seems so unfair for only 45 points. I may have to "clip" with my chariots to compensate if they try to. You get 20 wounds of unbreakable, poison, etc. etc. etc. for 180 points. That is a bargain in any army list, let alone the CR ambiguity.

Atrahasis
15-04-2005, 14:55
But for example the Hellcannon is unbreakable. Still its a deamon and has to take an instability test if it loses combat and then take wounds if it fails its test. IT will fight on of course if it still is alive, but i guess the same would count for the tomb swarms?

No, the Hellcannon does not suffer from Instability.

metro_gnome
17-04-2005, 13:24
thats correct... the hellcannon is both daemonic and unbreakable... in combat it cannot be broken... so i believe that your swarms cannot crumble from combat res...

anarchistica
17-04-2005, 14:02
thats correct... the hellcannon is both daemonic and unbreakable... in combat it cannot be broken... so i believe that your swarms cannot crumble from combat res...
The Hellcannon is not Daemonic.

Festus
17-04-2005, 15:25
Although it shares quite a few rules with other Daemons, Anarchistika is right :)

Greetings
Festus