PDA

View Full Version : Stalls and Manoeuvres



Aphex Geek
20-08-2007, 21:34
Hi all..
This is probably a really obvious question but ive run a seach and cant find it anywhere...
now im probably misreading the rules but im wondering when does a plane count as stalled? stalling happens when the craft drops below its minimum speed but when is this reading taken? as soon as it happens or at the end of the planes move? my reason for asking is that im wondering if its possible for say an eldar night wing.. currently at speed 4.. to apply full reverse thrust (as thrust is applied before moving) to drop to speed 1 (under its minimum speed) move the appropriate distance... (in this case 2") then powerdive to increase speed by 2 and end its turn at speed setting 3 (above minimum speed)..

havent tried this yet and im sure that with amicable opponents you could set house rules but just wondering what the general concensus was on this sneakyness?

Cheers

Nemoyo
20-08-2007, 22:08
The rules on page 9 state if an aircraft ends it's movement below it's minimum speed it stalls, so it seems like the Nightwing manoeuvre you gave would be fine. :)

HarkonGreywolf
20-08-2007, 23:15
Clever stuff!
I'd not have thought of doing this ....... until now!

Guess my Orks have learned a new trick!

Watch Out Brimstone! Your Tau low speed doesn't beat me now! Mwuahahahaha!

;)

HG

Tyra_Nid
21-08-2007, 10:24
Hey, that is indeed quite nifty... not that usefull generally, but I can see several situations where it would be good!

Morsleib
21-08-2007, 10:53
The rules on page 9 state if an aircraft ends it's movement below it's minimum speed it stalls

That is indeed exactly how the rules are written. I couldn't find anything under thrust or speed which contradicts it. However I find it very unlikley that this is what the designers intended. I don't want to start a RAW v RAI argument but this could just :-(

Take an extreme case. My Barracuda is flying at speed 1 (its minimum) and at the start of its move applies reverse thrust 2. It is now flying at speed -1 (ie backwards). As it is not hovering it can use a dive manouvre to add +2 speed back and finish at speed 1 without stalling. Now I know Tau are good flyers but!

I think (my opinion only) that the 'ends its movement' should apply at the end of each move segment not just at the end of the move phase. It doesn't read that way but I think that is how I will house rule it.

Morsleib

Slekith
21-08-2007, 11:17
I think rules are JUST fine.

orangesm
21-08-2007, 11:33
Good job, it is a viable tactic and shows how to use stalls in the game like you may actually see in combat.

Morsleib
21-08-2007, 13:02
Good job, it is a viable tactic and shows how to use stalls in the game like you may actually see in combat.

Hmm. Looks like I may be on my own here. How about needing a pilot skill test to pull it off?

Morsleib

Cry of the Wind
21-08-2007, 16:34
A pilot skill check anytime you drop below your stall speed would be fair to me. As unlikely as it is for a combat pilot to stall intentionally and then proceed to mess up the recovery it seems to fit in with game balance and the general simplicity of the rules.

orangesm
21-08-2007, 19:23
But you can play the game not using pilot skill checks and for those instances the Stall during the manuever/below stall speed may be accurate. Instances might be the top of a climb where you want to nose over back into the fight beneath you.

HarkonGreywolf
21-08-2007, 22:13
I tend to agree with the consensus here, that it is a valid tactic.

However the going into -1 Speed does appear to be a little daft!!

Perhaps limiting minumum speed to 0 is a better suggestion? After all, a stall is technically coming to a stop in mid air.
Going into Reverse is crashing and it's generally too late to stop the crash at that point, you don't get any lift from the wings when they are going backwards do you?

But with luck and forward movement a pilot will bring the speed back up in a Dive situation.

I'm not sure a Pilot Skill test is the answer either because anyone can stall a plane! ;)

HG

Aphex Geek
21-08-2007, 22:22
A pilot skill check anytime you drop below your stall speed would be fair to me. As unlikely as it is for a combat pilot to stall intentionally and then proceed to mess up the recovery it seems to fit in with game balance and the general simplicity of the rules.

But do not the rules already state (gotta love that inverted syntax) that pilot skill checks may be used to avoid such situations as stalls and crashes?

Therfore id suggest that this wouldnt need a skill check unless the turn ended with a craft under its minimum speed

lmao.. who'd have thought that my general eldar sneakyness would have peaked such interest?

May history and modesty forever remember this as 'pulling an Aphex' :angel: :p :D

SquishySquig
21-08-2007, 22:33
Perhaps limiting minumum speed to 0 is a better suggestion? After all, a stall is technically coming to a stop in mid air.
Going into Reverse is crashing and it's generally too late to stop the crash at that point, you don't get any lift from the wings when they are going backwards do you?



:skull:I think limiting the speed to 0 is probably the right course, but I was thinking what if the pilot as he was cutting thrust pulled his craft up and did a half loop finishing in the dive so that his plane ended up behind his starting position. That could explain the -1 move to some extent. He didn't fly backwards he just did a loop which then turns into a dive?

Anyway. Just a thought. Hope it makes sense. Not really sure the best way to explain it.:skull:

fattdex
22-08-2007, 00:40
need FW to faq it really. i looked in the book last night and there was nothing stopping you doing it, however there were no rules such as not going to -1 either. I'd say common sense says that 1 should be the minimum you move the wheel to, but thats just me

Tyra_Nid
22-08-2007, 08:52
Id say 0 would be the lowest- that split second where the plane is hanging in the air before it starts dropping. Or VTOL, either way :p

But I would agree that -1 should be impossible!

mageboltrat
22-08-2007, 09:19
-1 does not exist in the rules.. it says quite clearly speed values can be between 0-9... therefore 10 does not exist. you can't Thrust up to 11.

HarkonGreywolf
22-08-2007, 10:49
Aha Mageboltrat has it!
0 is the minimum then! And it does actually represent the moment of "no forward movement" in a stall, so it does work fluff-wise as well!

Whilst an FW FAQ would be great, I wouldn;t hold my breath, we're still waiting for some response on the Grot Bomb issue as far as I can remember! And that included at least 2 emails to Warwick from myself and another member (sorry, too tired to remember who) and that was ages ago!!!

In the meantime I think "Officially" ;) setting the minimum speed, as in the Rules Book, at Zero is the best thing all round.

HG

greenmtvince
22-08-2007, 14:08
Actually, a stall isn't necessarily standing still or having no forward movement. It's simply losing lift over the wings or other lifting surface.

A cessna 172 with full flaps down can have zero ground speed and be hovering above the ground as long as there's a sustained wind above about 45 knots. It hasn't stalled, it's in full flight, but isn't moving anywhere. Additionally, a fighter or heavier aircraft can stall out while travelling over 100 knots depending on the conditions. It still has plenty of forward movement but no lift on the wings. Finally Helicopters can actually stall out if they go FASTER than a certain speed rather than slower.

The minimum speed rules pretty accurately reflect this. And doing a pilot check for stalling at the end of the movement makes sense, as mentioned above. You can chop the power, slow down below stall speed, and then trade altitude for airspeed to recover.

Morsleib
22-08-2007, 14:47
Id say 0 would be the lowest- that split second where the plane is hanging in the air before it starts dropping.

Actually the definition of 'stall' is when the velocity of air and the angle of attack of the aerofoil no longer provide lift. In other words you can 'stall' an aircraft whilst still having a forward speed.

The stall-then-manouvre which has been talked about is akin to the real life stall-turn. To the observer (and probably the pilot) it does look like the plane runs out of speed then hangs in the air for a moment prior to side slipping into a dive. A basic favourite at air shows. The nose over I would think still needs some forward motion to get lift from the tail although the engine weight might be enough to pivot the plane.

Mageboltrat has picked up the fallacy in my off the cuff example. In the game speed is limited to a range of 0-9. My difficulty with going below minimum speed before making a speed recovery manouvre is that you could move a significant distance (up to 6") before the manouvre is executed. That doesn't seem right.

Nice to see some thought provoking debate going on.

Morsleib

Cry of the Wind
22-08-2007, 17:34
I'm liking the idea of going to zero speed and the using a manouver to bring you above stall again representing a loop. It's something the manouver cards don't really have an option for as you're finishing the loop at the same altitude and direction you started (which the strait card handles fine). I'm sure there are a few other manouvers that would have similar results as well.

Aphex Geek
22-08-2007, 23:50
hey all... actually ran this in my ai game today with my nightwings.. my opponent was happy enough to oblige.. escaped a tailing situation from a thunderbolt by dropping from altitute 5 speed 3 to altitude 1 speed 2 through a powerdive (gotta love the nightwings and i suppose hell talons for being the only craft capable of shedding speed on a power dive :p )

But just to add one more stage of confusion to the mix.. pulled off another improbable move too...

went from speed 5 altitude 4 (applied negative thrust to drop to speed 2) moved the 4inch played a 'half loop' to rise to altitude 5 and reverse direction.. also reducing speed to 0 (ending a turn as a stall) then passed my rookie pilot skill check to avoid the stall and remain at minimum speed (2).. putting me in a perfect position to drop a lance shot through the cockpit of the thunderbolt who thought hed out manuvered me..
again neither my opponent nor i could find any fault with this play... with the obvious exception that had i failed my pilot check i would have looked like a right mon-keigh...

fattdex
23-08-2007, 02:37
That's just good luck ;-) and reminds me of double eagle a bit!

Sai-Lauren
24-08-2007, 14:13
But I would agree that -1 should be impossible!

Tell that to Harrier pilots - they can go backwards. ;)

I would think, as a house rule, that if you hit this situation, any firing would be done at half firepower, rounded down - after all, the pilots got to hang onto the thing and not crash, so he's got more important things on his mind than shooting down an enemy.

HarkonGreywolf
25-08-2007, 10:23
My pilots are all Orks, in a panic situation they keep their finger on the trigger for "therapeutic" reasons therefore I think Orks should fire double! ;)

LOL

HG

Bravery exists
26-08-2007, 09:50
Don't the tau use antigravity technology? so isnt a 0/-1 speed perfectly possible for them?

HarkonGreywolf
26-08-2007, 10:52
Whilst the fluff may indicate a -1 Speed, the Rules do not.
Speed 0-9 as quoted above.
Therefore Minimum Speed is 0 and that effectively means Hovering, as some craft are allowed to do.
In a Stall this means the "no forward movement moment" as the stall occurs before tipping over into the Dive to bring the Speed back up to above Stalling Speed. (I appreciate the point that was made earlier in that you don't have to be stationery to stall, just simplifying the situation to cover the Fluff/Rules/Game mechanics!)

HG

Nemoyo
28-08-2007, 14:23
Even at 0 movement, if you not hovering, you still have the distance of the maneouvre card to travel.

Tyra_Nid
30-08-2007, 07:45
Even at 0 movement, if you not hovering, you still have the distance of the maneouvre card to travel.

Yes, and even at speed -1 you would still be moving :D