PDA

View Full Version : Is it really true?



Vesica
21-08-2007, 21:21
I have heard a few Csms say that 'current sms are nothing compared to the original heresy marines' and i wanted to know if its true?

Im on the fence as to if its true.

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2007, 21:28
The only people really able to say whether it's true are the most sadistic and base traitors imaginable. And who would believe them anyway?

That said, it is true that the gene-seed of the Chapters have, on average, deteriorated over the millenia. Most Chapters have some form of gene-seed abberation.

Iceheart2112
21-08-2007, 21:29
Do you mean "'current SM's *are* nothing compared to the original...'" ?

thehairyshaso
21-08-2007, 21:32
No comparisons, the heresy marines armor wasn't quite as beefy... However personally I think the Heresy era marines were a little better trained and more autonomus considering they didn't have to worry about the ecclesiarchy... Plus centuries of bloody tradition has dulled the true meanings of being an SM, the heresy era marines fought for their worlds and for ideals, the current era marines fight expecting the emperor to protect and guide them. The dependency on religion and faith makes them weak IMO.

Gen.Steiner
21-08-2007, 21:43
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... the Space Marines.

Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.

Who is better? You do the maths. One on one, my money's on the Chaos Marine any day. *shoots self for Heresy*

Vesica
21-08-2007, 21:56
True they have less 'training' in a sense, but i think them having faith isnt a bad thing as such because they have even more reason to fight, i think its the Inqs and the hole 'human' of the Imperium of man that has made them weak.

hope that makes sense.

Savant
21-08-2007, 22:03
Well, the Chaos Space Marines have the chaos gods on their side, while the Space Marines have Games Workshop on their's.

So one has the most base, corrupt, twisted, debauched and souless entities in existance helping them while the other gets the chaos gods.

Fair match if you ask me.

Vesica
21-08-2007, 22:06
i dont mean heresy as in the traitor marines, i mean the pre-heresy marines.

thehairyshaso
21-08-2007, 22:09
Ah, General... you make such a valid point... I'd put my money on CSMS in almost any battle... Unless its Thousand Sons against Tau...

warboss48
21-08-2007, 22:12
Well, the Chaos Space Marines have the chaos gods on their side, while the Space Marines have Games Workshop on their's.

So one has the most base, corrupt, twisted, debauched and soulless entities in existence helping them while the other gets the chaos gods.

Fair match if you ask me.

I'm going to sig that if you don't mind.

Shibby
21-08-2007, 22:16
yea its true imo because in some warhammer 40k books it dose mention that "they dont make it as good as they used to" and that over the years the knowledge is lost so there gear and training isnt as good as it could be :( but hell if youre a space marine all you need is a bolter in youre hand and a enemy before you and youre happy. (well a space wolf is but im sure a normal marine would think the same....well the normal marine might want backup or some sort of plan first :p )

Savant
21-08-2007, 22:23
i dont mean heresy as in the traitor marines, i mean the pre-heresy marines.

Ah right, well in that case it's definately pre-heresy marines. They have better access to advanced tech that is lost by the 41st millenium, they actually know how their own equipment works rather than relying on superstitution and mysticism to keep it going, and they receive better training from an Imperium that is expanding and growing rather than an Imperium that is crumbling and desperately trying to churn out more warriors to defend it's shrinking borders.

And not at all warboss48. ;O

Vesica
21-08-2007, 22:26
who needs a plan or backup when your a marine? hell like you said all you need is a bolter and a powerweapon.

Vesica
21-08-2007, 22:27
Hmm i think i might create a marine army that isnt blinded by mars and such.

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-08-2007, 22:29
Do you mean "'current SM's *are* nothing compared to the original...'" ?

NO! It's plural not genitive!

That's the third time on this forum now, I swear I'm going to kill the next person who tries it!

Kahadras
21-08-2007, 22:30
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.


I'm pretty sure GW have admitted that there are very few of the original Chaos Marines who fought during the heresy left alive. Most have been killed or have been exalted to demonic status.

Look at it this way if a handful of traitor marines from each legion were killed every year by the time we get to the 'present day' universe the traitor legions just wouldn't exist any more.

IMHO most of the 'bog standard' Chaos Marines have probably been inducted into the legions in the Eye of Terror and therefore will probably be lacking the whole '10,000 years of experience' idea.

Kahadras

Lord Inquisitor
21-08-2007, 22:35
No comparisons, the heresy marines armor wasn't quite as beefy...
Not necessarily true - many regard the MkII Crusade armour as the most superior armour. Most other variants are compromises in one way or another.


Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... the Space Marines.

Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.

Who is better? You do the maths. One on one, my money's on the Chaos Marine any day. *shoots self for Heresy*
He was asking if loyalist marines are inferior to the heresy-era marines, not the current traitors.


who needs a plan or backup when your a marine? hell like you said all you need is a bolter and a powerweapon.
Um... Marines wouldn't last any time at all with an attitude like that. As powerful as they may be, even a full Chapter is only 1,000-strong. Their enemies often number in the millions, or more. A bolter is all well and good, but what if your enemies have baneblades and warlord titans?

Space Marines are always about a precise application of force against the correct area. Which requires a plan, and often backup, for example by the Navy or the Adeptus Titanicus.

Khaine's Messenger
21-08-2007, 22:48
I have heard a few Csms say that 'current sms are nothing compared to the original heresy marines' and i wanted to know if its true?

I would not say that it has to do with what makes them a marine physically so much as the nature of their deployment and formation. The destruction of the image of the Marines as the pre-eminent political and military force in the Imperium prompted a change in strategic, tactical, and ideological mindset that made them appear "weaker" than they once were...especially since they could no longer command Guard or AdMech auxilla or the mighty guns of the Imperial Navy. More than that, a lot of chapters never quite got over their Primarch's disappearance...six of the traitor legions can still point out on a map (albeit warped) where their primarch lives and how his mastery still visits destruction on their foes.

Of course, it is likely that the current marines are slightly "weaker" than their pre-Heresy equivalents...there's been notes around the place about things like geneseed failures and impurities, although some of those trace back to the pre-Heresy era impurities. The likeliest reasons, I think, have to do with the supposedly higher turnover among loyalist marines and the ideology which now drives them. The Imperium is, after all, now a place of barely maintained stasis, and that is a far cry from the dynamic ideals of the Great Crusade.

GreenDracoBob
21-08-2007, 23:16
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... the Space Marines.

Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.

Who is better? You do the maths. One on one, my money's on the Chaos Marine any day. *shoots self for Heresy*
As I see it, you can never say that a Chaos Space Marine has fought for ten thousand years. As Kahadras said, many have died or moved up in the totem pole. But beyond which, you also must take the powers of the warp into account. A day in the warp could be ten thousand normal years. So that marine may pop out and say "I have 10,000 years of experience." and sound really cool, but he really just is a day older than when he went in. In the end, 10,000 years of CSM experience doesn't equate to the number stated.

But I would say more experience than the standard marine. At least two centuries of Crusade work plus the time in the warp fighting each other and outside fighting others.

Shibby
22-08-2007, 00:17
who needs a plan or backup when your a marine? hell like you said all you need is a bolter and a powerweapon.


Um... Marines wouldn't last any time at all with an attitude like that.

well space wolves are the most headstrong and there totally into that kinda thing and there still going strong, but true normal marine armys do plan ahead before they attack like dark angles are master tacticians imo because of all they different wings they have.

ps!
Do you mean "'current SM's *are* nothing compared to the original...'" ?

*Dies*

thehairyshaso
22-08-2007, 00:25
So from what I can tell there is a majority that agrees with me in that the pre-heresy legions were stronger better equipped (mmmmnnnn... jetbikes...) and generally more kickass? Well then, I say we all jump on it and get to converting rules and minis to recreate the Great Crusade and up through the Heresy to include the Primarchs... Dibs on the Emperor's Children... mmmmmnnn Fulgrim...

SwordJon
22-08-2007, 00:36
Okay, isn't the CSM just saying... the marines he's fighting currently are like nothing compared to the marines he fought during the heresy? I mean, that's all he's saying. And I can totally believe that.

MvS
22-08-2007, 00:50
I seem to remember reading a quote in one of the Codices that the Ultramarines and their successors are every bit the Marines they were in pre-Heresy days - albeit with more advanced armour now.

I'll see if I can dig it up.

Shibby
22-08-2007, 11:49
the marines he's fighting currently are like nothing compared to the marines he fought during the heresy

yea ive read something like this too in a book were its explaining a chaos termy walking forwards just killing all these marines and how hes thinking that there nothing like the marines he fought in the heresy because they would have shot out the weak points in his Armour by now.

also in another book the loyalist marine explaining how the ancient engines that gives them knowledge of there enemy's, tactics, and the history of there chapter ect and he says that the machines looses information over the century's so and that in the information they loose they forget how to make things as best they can.

But either way marines still kick ass even if there not as good as they used to be.

ps sorry for poor grammar but its early for me lol

Vesica
22-08-2007, 15:04
Um... Marines wouldn't last any time at all with an attitude like that. As powerful as they may be, even a full Chapter is only 1,000-strong. Their enemies often number in the millions, or more. A bolter is all well and good, but what if your enemies have baneblades and warlord titans?

Fine then you might need two bolters for thos situations.

CELS
22-08-2007, 15:16
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... the Space Marines.
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.
That would be a fair way of putting it... if the 10,000 years were the only thing separating them... and if one could be sure that they actually have 10,000 years of experience. However...
- Chaos Space Marines are also different in that they worship Chaos (yes, really). Thus, many of them appear to be quite insane, and many are quite obsessed with pleasure or blood or whatever else pleases their god, rather than just being efficient killers (such as Space Marines). Khornate Berzerkers will readily slaughter their own if they feel so inclined, which is a set-back for any Chaos commander, I imagine.
- Time flows differently in the warp. For all we know, some Chaos Space Marines might only have experienced a few minutes in a frozen yoghurt bar in the Eye of Terror, and then returning to the Imperium only to discover that 10,000 years have passed. Maybe some Chaos Space Marines have experienced a hundred millennia, maybe some have experienced a few days. Who knows?

Generally, I'd agree that Chaos Space Marines are better, but that's because their advantages tend to outweigh their [significant] flaws.


*shoots self for Heresy*
*flogs Steiner for good measure*

heretics bane
22-08-2007, 15:47
Its kinda like second hand cars basicly, although there sometimes good there not as good as when they where first made and they lose money and power over the years, thats whats basicly happened to the marines gene seed

ryng_sting
22-08-2007, 17:25
Bear in mind that Chaos Marine Traitors are 10,000 years old, and have a veteran's ego.

Btw, Space Marines aren't religious - they don't worship the Emperor as a god. Although tell the Grey Knights that their faith makes them weak and see how far you get.

CELS
22-08-2007, 17:35
I seem to remember reading a quote in one of the Codices that the Ultramarines and their successors are every bit the Marines they were in pre-Heresy days - albeit with more advanced armour now.
I'll see if I can dig it up.
And I remember a quote from one of the codices that the Ultramarines "are the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" :D
(Codex Ultramarines, incidentally...)

Lord Inquisitor
22-08-2007, 19:55
I seem to remember reading a quote in one of the Codices that the Ultramarines and their successors are every bit the Marines they were in pre-Heresy days - albeit with more advanced armour now.
The Ultramarines have the most stable gene-seed. However, all of their successors are not all so lucky - many have degenerated, others are flat-out wierd, like the Mortifactors.



Marines wouldn't last any time at all with an attitude like that. As powerful as they may be, even a full Chapter is only 1,000-strong. Their enemies often number in the millions, or more. A bolter is all well and good, but what if your enemies have baneblades and warlord titans?
Fine then you might need two bolters for thos situations.
Fair enough then!

MvS
22-08-2007, 21:31
Can't find it. It was probably in the previous Marine codex.

Meh.

:)

kairous
22-08-2007, 22:00
i wouldn't say that current SM's are weaker or inferior, but i too have read current gene seeds have deteraited or become less reliable over the years.
Only difference for chaos is alot more of them have been around since the heresy as opposed to alot of the loyalists, so their gene seed is more pure, LOL the irony in that statement.
And any new chaos space marines have been genetically enchanced and improved by fabius bile, of course that again fall under the catergory of degeration over time.

Marstfu
23-08-2007, 01:04
Fluff says current Space Marines get around.. 4 centuries at most?
Leader of the Soul Drinkers Sarpedon has 70 service years, and this is quite much to them.

Dante is Ancient compared to other Space Marines, well over a millenium.

In the Horus Heresy books, it says Space Marines can live forever, since they Always die in battle.

Forrix in Storm of Iron was at the Battle of Terra. Honsou and Kroeger are slightly younger, but still over a couple of millenia.

Zho Sahaal got this old by being trapped in the warp, he was quite suprised it was the 41st millenium, not the 3..2nd?

Eh, that's all I know anyway. Seems like logic, the process to create marines has failed, and the results are just as tough, just not immortal.

RapidKiller
23-08-2007, 02:18
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.


technically they dont have 10k of exp. because while in the rest of the universe 10000 have passed, in the eye of terror time does not behave like the norm

Biomass Denial
23-08-2007, 07:27
Yeah but the Idea oh no they might only have a day extra experience can work the other way too. So on average your heresy aged traitor does have 10000 years more experience

Slaaneshi Slave
23-08-2007, 07:36
Superhuman genetically enhanced elite shock assault soldiers with the best training and equipment money can buy, bred for war... and with 10,000 years of experience - the Traitor Legions.

They do not have 10,000 years of experience. When travelling by ship through the warp you might experience two days pass, when in the materium 2 weeks has gone by, or two months, or even two years. Those Marines live in the Warp, or close to. 10,000 years has passed in the Materium, it may be as little as 100 years to the Traitors.