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Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 00:52
Ok, before you guys go into a flaming rant on me, hear me out.

In the Empire Army book, the only thing it says regarding the steam tank’s Close Combat Phase offensive capabilities are, “Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits.” In order to find out what impact hits are, we have to go to the main rulebook. However, the main rulebook does not provide a basic description of impact hits existing solely in a vacuum; it only describes impact hits in the section on chariots, and then only from the very specific point of view of a chariot that has just charged. This point of view is accurate enough for all models in the game save the steam tank, which can cause impact hits even when not charging or even when it is being charged. Since the descriptive point of view is from a charging chariot, there is no arguable reason to include any qualifiers about which of the chariot’s facings the enemy is on since it, after all, just charged.

My point is this: In the last sub-section of the impact hits rules, it discusses pursuit charges. This section is the only place that deals with what happens when a chariot is still capable of dealing impact hits while simultaneously having enemies on its flanks or rear. In this section it says, “Only units charging the flank or rear of a charging chariot do not suffer impact hits.” Since this is the only occurrence of a description of flanks and impact hits, I think this is where the steam tank fits in if it had units on its flanks. And so I say again, steam tanks do not get to grind on units on their flanks or rear.

This wont nerf steam tanks very much as it will still be a rare occurrence, but it does make the s-tank a little bit less brainless.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 01:26
So what you're saying is you don't like the steam tank so you're going to apply rules that apply in a very specific situation to it in order to tone it down in your eyes.

I'm sorry, but there is no evidence whatsoever that the Steam Tank does not cause impact hits to units in the flank or rear. The only thing that is undefined is how they are distributed between multiple combatants.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 04:03
Well first of all, I play Ogres so killing a steam tank is a pretty easy undertaking (thank you D6 wounds to no initiative value things). I personally don't have a problem with the s-tank; the pope-mobile on the other hand gives me fits. I was mearly rereading the impact hits section of the rule book one day and this caught my eye.

I'd never thought of the distributing impact hits issue before, but that is a damn good question. If you do see things by my argument above however, that issue is resolved pretty cut and clear by the impact hit rules themselves: everything on the front facing takes D3 impact hits per SP, units on the flanks and rear are safe.

Dranthar
22-08-2007, 05:40
I think the effort needed to explain this to a steam tank wielding opponent is not worth the reduced effectiveness of the Steam tank.

Far better to let them grind flank chargers and just get on with enjoying the game. :rolleyes:

Nephilim of Sin
22-08-2007, 05:42
Well, as a "newb", I would say, based solely upon above post, that since it says nowhere that the S-Tank is a chariot, said rules do not apply. Yet, then again, I could just not like the S-Tank and my thoughts be null and void....:skull:

Festus
22-08-2007, 06:31
Even Chariots can cause impact hits when being charged themselves....

... so, where is the problem?

Festus

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-08-2007, 07:58
As for distributing the impact hits, the tank would do Xd3 impact hit on each unit. Just as a chariot does D6 impact hits on each unit it hits.

EvC
22-08-2007, 09:52
Nah you can't take one rule out of context and apply it to the Steam Tank like this. It'd be like saying a Chariot only causes impact hits when it charges, thus the Steam Tank can only do impact hits when it charges. Doesn't work like that...

Edit: I'm pretty sure Festus is referring to pursuit charges where a Chariot and an enemy both end up charging...

bluesky322
22-08-2007, 10:44
Even Chariots can cause impact hits when being charged themselves....

... so, where is the problem?

Festus

can you please explain this and give a page number pls ;)

Slaaneshi Slave
22-08-2007, 11:34
Think about it logically for a minute. A Steam Tank causes impact hits by ramming things. How is it supposed to ram sideways? If it does impact hits to the front, how is it supposed to do hits to the rear at the same time? :rolleyes:

DeathlessDraich
22-08-2007, 11:58
As for distributing the impact hits, the tank would do Xd3 impact hit on each unit. Just as a chariot does D6 impact hits on each unit it hits.

Assuming this refers to Grind.
Your interpretation is identical to the old ST rules. Many Empire players still adopt this rule and I've got a feeling that any future FAQ will support this.

SlaaneshiSlave: Grind causes Impact hits. It does not have to be an actual impact but is simply treated as Impact hits, in the same way as frontal charging a stationary chariot in combat.
The old ST rules explains why 'Grind' causes impact hits quite well - the ST twists and turns and hence 'grinds' enemy model in base contact into the dust.

Slaaneshi Slave
22-08-2007, 12:00
I'd love to know how a tank weighing several dozen tonnes twists and turns. :rolleyes:

DeathlessDraich
22-08-2007, 12:17
This is a fantasy game, reality is unimportant! Use your imagination:D.

EvC
22-08-2007, 12:30
Think about it logically for a minute. A Steam Tank causes impact hits by ramming things. How is it supposed to ram sideways? If it does impact hits to the front, how is it supposed to do hits to the rear at the same time? :rolleyes:

Well, it moves backwards and forwards in order to do so, clearly ;)

Slaaneshi Slave
22-08-2007, 12:32
How, if its charging across the battlefield? :p Also a tank moving slowly enough to change direction rapidly is a ramming threat no neither man nor beast. Or daemon/elf/dwarf for that matter!

EvC
22-08-2007, 12:57
If it's charging across the battlefield how has it been hit with a rear charge in your example?! :p

T10
22-08-2007, 13:01
I'd love to know how a tank weighing several dozen tonnes twists and turns. :rolleyes:

Move 'Zig'! For Great Justice!

-T10

Slaaneshi Slave
22-08-2007, 13:05
If it's charging across the battlefield how has it been hit with a rear charge in your example?! :p

Cavalry, flying units, magically moved units etc.

EvC
22-08-2007, 13:13
Oh god it's like trying to have a silly conversation with a wall sometimes.

You: "logically how does a steam tank manage to grind a unit in the front and the rear at the same time?!"
Me: "it moves backwards then forwards etc!"
You: "but it's charging across the battlefield!"
What I then should have said: "If it's charging across the battlefield then it can't have been hit in the rear at the same time! If it has been hit in the rear then it's obviously free to move backwards and forwards and grind in both directions at the enemies!"

(We'll ignore the side issue for now though ;) )

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 13:38
Ok, ignoring the last half of this thread, which has devolved into a relatively meaningless argument over fluff, I'd like to pick this up after EVC's comment:

"Nah you can't take one rule out of context and apply it to the Steam Tank like this. It'd be like saying a Chariot only causes impact hits when it charges, thus the Steam Tank can only do impact hits when it charges. Doesn't work like that..."

The only entry in the rulebook that describes impact hits is in the context of a charging chariot. I realize that the steam tank is not a chariot, but there are no rules for impact hits that ARE in context to a steam tank. A steam tank does impact hits and the only section in the rulebook that deals with models doing impact hits while simultaneously having enemy models on any other facing except the front is only dealt with in one paragraph: the pursuit sub-section. Therefore I think that this section should pertain to steam tanks.

N1AK
22-08-2007, 13:56
The Steam Tank has rules explaining how it GENERATES Impact hits, specifically D3 hits against models in combat per SP. The only thing you need the main rulebook for is what impact hits do.

For that reason I would say this is a bit of a non-issue.

JonnyTHM
22-08-2007, 14:07
And that is a huge logical jump Shas'O Vash.

The key word is impact "hits". There are several rules in this game where hits,wounds and other things follow a 'flavour word' indicating where the hit is coming from.

An impact hit... is a hit!

Here's the beauty of RAW (and I know, I'm crazy that I think there is beauty in this), it cannot possibly prove what you're speaking about, because there is no way that you can say "following the strictest reading of the rules, since this paragraph is the only place that talks about impact hits to the side, we should follow its ideas, even though they are in a section completely unrelated to what we're talking about"

Regardless, RAW is just taking the empire book entry, reading it and applying it.

The units in the flanks are still opponents, yes? Then the rules say you can cause impact hits on them. Case closed.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 14:49
I somewhat agree with N1AK: all the Empire book says is that the steam tank generates impact hits, nothing else. We have to go to the main rulebook for what an impact hit is... So how is this a non-issue?

Question for JonnyTHM: Are you saying that steam tank "impact hits" are completely different from the actual rules governing impact hits? If so, then what is a steam tank impact hit? There are no rules covering them in this event.

The way we commonly apply what a steam tank does takes a bit of inferring and reading between the lines to begin with. I never read the rules for 6th edition and I never saw what the old steam tank rules were capable of, so I'm looking at this question with a fresh eye. While I agree that GW probably meant for the steam tank to hit everything in base with it, the RAW in relation to enemy units on the sides of a model inflicting impact hits say that they are unaffected.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 14:58
As N1AK has said, the Steam Tank rules tell us how we get the Impact Hits. How other units (chariots) generate impact hits is completely irrelevant. All that matters is how a Tank generates them and how they are applied (distributed as shooting, can never hit models mounted on monsters/chariots).

kroq'gar
22-08-2007, 15:32
a steam tank inflicts d3 impact hits for each SP it expends. An impact hit in the capcity of the rulebook being an autohit.

As per frontage (the inital part of this thread) im confused. no mention is ever made of this in the empire rules. Its base contact, or those rammed.

JonnyTHM
22-08-2007, 15:40
Shas'O
I'm just saying you don't get to infer things and call them rules. That's the whole point of RAW.

If you need to infer it, it's a house rule.

And that is what you're doing, you're inferring, not deducing.

Please stop calling it RAW when you read another section, apply it out of context and infer that the result should hold.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 15:55
How chariots generate and apply impact hits are not at all irrelevant. We are not arguing how a steam tank generates impact hits, that bit is in black and white. We are arguing how those impact hits are applied. If we ignore all the rules regarding chariot impact hits, then there are NO rules, in the main rulebook, the Empire army book, or otherwise, to say what an impact hit is and how it is applied; and therefore the steam tank has no means thru which it can damage any enemy units in close combat. I'm not advocating this is the case mind you, so don't flame me for that.

Basically what I’m trying to say is that steam tanks do impact hits, and the effect of impact hits are only described in the main rulebook from the context and point of view of a chariot, and nowhere else. Unfortunately (thank you GW), that context must be modified and interpreted for the use of a steam tank. Chariots do not do impact hits to units on their flanks or rear, therefore neither should steam tanks.

Am I taking the RAW a little out of context: yes. But there is no way to apply the RAW to a steam tank at all without taking the impact hit rules slightly out of context. If one would go by the strict reading of the rules, then steam tanks could only do impact hits when they themselves charged; an idea that I am not at all endorsing.


P.S. Am I the only one who sees this interpretation from this angle? If so, I may have to concede the point to my adversaries...

JonnyTHM
22-08-2007, 16:12
The key is that if you read the impact hits section of the rulebook, it is only in the pursuit section that this talk of sides and rears is brought up, and that is only for a charging chariot.

Otherwise, there is no prohibition of the steam tank's impact hits applying to the sides and rear.

Here's my RAW breakdown:
1) The rules for how to apply impact hits (that they are like shooting and that they are at the beginning of the combat phase) are on page 63 of the BRB
2) The steamtank's rules state that it may grind its opponents in close combat, and that each SP expended to do so causes d3 impact hits.
3) That it doesn't restrict that those opponents be to the front, there is no reason to suggest that they cannot be in the flank or sides. They are just as much his opponents as those to the front.
4) To move on to the Pursuit charges section of the impact hits rules is unnecessary as there is no pursuit happening in the combat.

Now, what to me seems like the much more fun RAW debate is as follows:

Given that it says that the steamtank grinds opponents in the combat, and doesn't specify that it's the units in contact with it...

what's to stop a RAW interpretation that says that if you have several other units of both sides involved in a combat with a steamtank, that the impact hits can't hit the other units in the combat that aren't in contact with the steamtank? Technically they are the steamtank's opponents are they not? You can't just argue normal targeting rules as the steamtank's attack has already exempted it from that...

Now THAT is an abuse of RAW.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 16:58
The reason that I go to the pursuit section for clarification is that the main section of the rules describing impact hits is from the point of view of a charging chariot, in which event enemy units will (almost) never be on its flanks or rear. As far as JonnyTHM's third point, the army book has no restrictions, and also not rules whatsoever, defining how to resolve the impact hits. How impact hits are resolved is solely described by the rulebook; unfortunately, from the contest of chariots. Because a steam tank can do impact hits on turns when it does not charge, and enemy units could have charged, the pursuit rules are the only section even remotely touching on this event.

Your first and second points are correct and I agree with them, but they just restate what the rules say and don't really touch on my point. I’m not arguing what impact hits are or what they do, that is in black and white. What I am arguing is how they are resolved.

And wow, that second portion of your last post is indeed a blatant abuse of the RAW. I'd just like to say that going by my interpretation of the rules, the s-tank would do its impact hits on all enemy units in base to base with its front, and nobody else. At least that would take care of that issue, and also the issue of how to resolve the impact hits against multiple opponents; which I gather is a source of argument also.

Captain Obvious
22-08-2007, 17:01
Well, no discussion of impact hits and RAW would be complete without this gem: impact hits are only inflicted when the chariot charges. The STank has no way of inflicting hits by grinding if you RAW the Impact Hits section (not to mention the niggling little problem of the word "chariot" in Impact Hits).

If grinding is to mean anything, it's necessary to interpret the Impact Hits section for non chariots. Since chariots never inflict impact hits on units not to the front, it's reasonable to interpret the STank the same way. If you got flank charged, you get what you deserve not being able to grind that unit. Win a combat and turn to face your flanker.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 17:06
One more thing, you guys insist on taking the rules for impact hits and removing the context of a charging chariot from them. I’ve said it before but I’ll reiterate it: The only rules that describe impact hits are those that are written SPECIFICALLY FOR A CHARIOT. You can’t simply say that one part of the impact hit rules do not apply to the steam tank because it is not a chariot. With that argument, impact hits from a steam tank have no written rules and are completely undefined. The fact that we have to modify the impact hit rules to conform to what is inferred in the Empire book about steam tanks already takes the rule somewhat out of context as it was never written for any other situation than a charging chariot.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 17:24
Saying that a steam tanks impact hits can only apply to the front becuase chariots can only apply them to the front is like saying that a magical weapon that gives +2 strength must strike last because great weapons do.

An impact hit is a hit that is distributed like shooting and cannot hit a model mounted on a chariot/monster. That is it. That is an impact hit. A steam tank does not cause impact hits like a chariot. It causes impact hits.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 17:54
Saying that a steam tanks impact hits can only apply to the front because chariots can only apply them to the front is like saying that a magical weapon that gives +2 strength must strike last because great weapons do.

It is nothing like that. Magical weapons have their own set of rules; great weapons have their own set of rules. Chariot impact hits have their own set of rules, but steam tank impact hits do not have any set of rules. We only use the chariot impact hit rules because they are the only rules for impact hits that we have available to us.


An impact hit is a hit that is distributed like shooting and cannot hit a model mounted on a chariot/monster. That is it. That is an impact hit. A steam tank does not cause impact hits like a chariot. It causes impact hits.

And where did you get that definition for an impact hit from? From the chariot rules! There is no differentiation between the rules for impact hits and those for chariot impact hits. We only have one set of impact hit rules. That entire paragraph is kind of a self-contradiction; you’re basically saying that steam tanks inflict impact hits like chariots, but not like chariots.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 18:10
The only place you know how to add +2S from is the great weapon rules. :rolleyes:

Armour saves only appear in the rulebook under shooting, does that mean to-hit modifiers for shooting apply in combat if someone is wearing armour?

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 18:21
The only place you know how to add +2S from is the great weapon rules. :rolleyes:

I was assuming you meant that if a magic weapon said it conferred a +2 strength in its description, it does not necessarily mean that it’s a great weapon. I'm confused with your argument now. What exactally is your point?


Armour saves only appear in the rulebook under shooting, does that mean to-hit modifiers for shooting apply in combat if someone is wearing armour?

I honestly can’t effetely argue that point right now; I don't have the rule book in front of me. All I can say off of the top of my head is how does imposing a -1 to hit penalty for long range work with a melee weapon? I think you're stretching things a bit there. If that argument is still an issue in this thread when I get home, I'll address it when I can read the appropriate rulebook entries.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 18:26
My point is that just because something appears in a section regarding a particular circumstance, we cannot then assume that all rules in that circumstance apply to all other circumstances.

If steam tanks can only inflict impact hits to the front, then by applying the same reasoning to armour saves I can give you -2 to hit if I'm behind a wall in combat. The rules just don't work like that.

JonnyTHM
22-08-2007, 18:27
Quoth the dragons

"I'm out"

They're multiplying...
Run Atrahasis, run!

jollyboy42
22-08-2007, 18:28
The only place you know how to add +2S from is the great weapon rules. :rolleyes:

Actually the rules for the Magic Weapon would say that you add +2S. Great Weapons have specific rules on pg. 56.


Armour saves only appear in the rulebook under shooting, does that mean to-hit modifiers for shooting apply in combat if someone is wearing armour?

Armour saves are specifically covered for close combat on pg. 36. It says that they are taken just as per shooting.

Hitting your enemy in close combat is covered specifically on pg. 34. This page mentions nothing of to-hit modifiers.


The issue that you are trying to side step here is that nowhere but under the chariot rules does it define what an impact hit is or how it is to be applied.
You are comparing apples and oranges.

DeathlessDraich
22-08-2007, 18:52
Hold on a minute, ShasOVash has a valid point.

This is his perfectly logical argument, JonnyTHM

1) Impact hits is a section in the Chariots section.
In that section Impact hits are outlined only with reference to chariots.
2) The Steam Tank is not a chariot but a warmachine.

Therefore,
Can Impact hits rules pertaining to Chariots be applied to a Steam Tank?
(Shas, you could apply this same question to a Bull charge.)

As players we simply accept that it can. The alternative ... well there is none since there are no other Impact hit rules. - This is something you have to accept Shas.

I think what Shas is highlighting here is something we all already know - GW is too lazy to correctly categorize and streamline its rules so that it meshes smoothly with new army books. They seem to prefer a Cut and Paste method from archaic rules.

Jollyboy: Hello and welcome.
It is more important to look at the main ideas or the gist of the post rather than pick isolated statements as that would lead to a protracted discussion on trivialities.

JonnyTHM
22-08-2007, 19:06
Deathless,

I'm completely content to accept RAW as saying that there is no such thing as an impact hit for a non-chariot. I just don't think that RAW allows his reading that we should then haphazardly go to the pursuit section, expand it into a general rule for non-pursuit situations for chariots (let alone other things that cause impact hits) and call that RAW.

I guess my problem is the #3 on the list that you're missing of his argument that goes to the pursuit section and reads other things.

Your 1,2, and conclusion are all very good RAW, and from that I'd say if you're really concerned, you would have to just go with my original suggestion that if you don't think there are rules for the impact hits of a non-chariot, that they're just hits.

DeathlessDraich
22-08-2007, 19:09
Glad you came back JonnyTHM. I agree with your logic as always.

jollyboy42
22-08-2007, 19:41
Jollyboy: Hello and welcome.
It is more important to look at the main ideas or the gist of the post rather than pick isolated statements as that would lead to a protracted discussion on trivialities.

I understand that, I was merely trying to point out the fact that Atrahasis was making a completely irrelevant comparison to the question at hand. The issues he was attempting to scuttle the discussion with are clearly and definitively spelled out in the rulebook.

I refuse to make a comment about the issue at hand without first reading the exact phrasing of the grind rules for the Steam Tank. Unfortunately my Empire book is not at hand.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 20:06
Which was entirely my point - the issues with impact hits are clearly and definitively spelled out in the rulebook, provided we don't go running off to other sections looking for problems.

Shas'O is getting overly concerned with how impact hits are inflicted when the only applicable part of the chariot rules is what they are.

jollyboy42
22-08-2007, 20:18
"A Steam Tank engaged in close combat may grind its opponents by expending SP. Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits."

I would say that since this rule does not mention directionality, merely opponents, that the steam tank can and does do impact hits to units on the flank.

But in true GW style, they leave out an important tidbit as to how those impact hits would be distributed amongst multiple enemy units in combat....

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 20:42
As players we simply accept that it can. The alternative ... well there is none since there are no other Impact hit rules. - This is something you have to accept Shas.

I think what Shas is highlighting here is something we all already know - GW is too lazy to correctly categorize and streamline its rules so that it meshes smoothly with new army books. They seem to prefer a Cut and Paste method from archaic rules.

That is something that I do accept. Impact hits with the steam tank and bull charges have to be kind of shoehorned into the chariot impact rules. That is normally not a problem, with the exception of the topic for this thread. As far as GW being lazy and providing a source for rules confusion, I wouldn't have it any other way. (insert dripping sarcasm) Life would be far to simple without that. :rolleyes:

As far as jollyboy42's post, the army book only says that the s-tank does impact hits on opponents, not how they work out. The rulebook says how to resolve those impact hits, again back to the reason for this thread.

Shas'O Vash
22-08-2007, 21:11
Shas'O is getting overly concerned with how impact hits are inflicted when the only applicable part of the chariot rules is what they are.

Who's to say which parts of a rule are applicable and which are not? The steam tank rules in the army book do not say, "use this part of the chariot impact rules, but ignore this part."

ZeroTwentythree
22-08-2007, 21:13
I think what a lot of people are trying to say is that it's a matter of "impact hit" rules vs. "chariot" rules.

And what they are saying is that the flank & rear issue is a "chariot" rule, not an "impact" rule, and just because the rules for impact hits are in the chariot section does not mean that other chariot rules apply.


I'm going to look this over when I get home & have the book in front of me, but that's my take on it, and about the simplest way I can think to paraphrase a bulk of the posts on this thread.





Steam Tanks Don't Get to Grind Units on their Flanks or Rear

The real question is about the engineer driving the tank. Does he get to grind his unit on my flank and rear. There should definitely be a rule against that. :p

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 21:28
Who's to say which parts of a rule are applicable and which are not? The steam tank rules in the army book do not say, "use this part of the chariot impact rules, but ignore this part."They don't say the steam tank is a pursuing chariot, but you seem intent on applying the rules for pursuing chariots to it anyway.

Answer this simple question - what is an impact hit?

Ninsaneja
22-08-2007, 23:00
Atrahasis, an Impact Hit is a hit inflicted to the unit(s) to the front of a charging chariot automatically IE without a to-hit roll.

In "Common Sense" terms it would be any hit caused by "fluff of an impact" that does not use the to-hit roll. Unfortunately, in RAW it is a little less.

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 23:08
Atrahasis, an Impact Hit is a hit inflicted to the unit(s) to the front of a charging chariot automatically IE without a to-hit roll.I asked what an impact hit is, not how it is caused.

DaBrode
22-08-2007, 23:38
Well, it moves backwards and forwards in order to do so, clearly ;)


Someone please explain to me why this person is trying to repeatedly use real world logic to justify and impliment rules for a device that does not really exist in a world that also doesn't really exist as it applies to it's place in tabletop gaming?

Atrahasis
22-08-2007, 23:40
I think the smiley indicates that he doesn't take the response entirely seriously.

DaBrode
22-08-2007, 23:42
WAIT!

The Ogre Kingdoms rulebook deals with impact hits and therefore a steamtank must only do impact hits when charging from more than it's actual Move distance!

:confused::wtf::rolleyes::p

DaBrode
23-08-2007, 00:20
I think the smiley indicates that he doesn't take the response entirely seriously.


That's one of the many posts he threw up though...no smiley's in the others.

At any rate...

Can't one deduct from the rules that yes the Steam Tank causes Impact Hits and due to the Steam Tank Rules which overrule the standard Impact Hits rules in the rulebook, It's impact hits are to everyone in base to base.

Else one could twist it so that Ogre bullcharges can happen anytime a charge is made because chariots don't loss their impact hits based on how far away they are when they charge.

Shas'O Vash
23-08-2007, 01:18
That's one of the many posts he threw up though...no smiley's in the others.

At any rate...

Can't one deduct from the rules that yes the Steam Tank causes Impact Hits and due to the Steam Tank Rules which overrule the standard Impact Hits rules in the rulebook, It's impact hits are to everyone in base to base.

Else one could twist it so that Ogre bullcharges can happen anytime a charge is made because chariots don't loss their impact hits based on how far away they are when they charge.

Ok, question: How can the "Steam Tank Rules" overrule the "standard Impact Hits rules" when there are no rules covering a steam tank's impact hits? If you can find such rules describing a steam tanks impact hits, please post a book and page number. As I've said previously, the only thing stated in the Empire army book is that a steam tank does D3 impact hits per SP; it says nothing else. Look it up, I wouldn't lie to you; that's all it says.

As far as the ogre bull charge, ogres only inflict impact hits when they move over half their charge range; it explicitly says that in black and white. So no, that could not be twisted.



I did think of something earlier today though. Basically, to put the impact hit rules into context with a steam tank, everywhere you see "charging chariot" in the impact hit rules section, replace it with "steam tank." You also must keep in mind that the rules, being written from the stand point of a charging chariot, do not consider what would happen if a chariot is inflicting impact hits and something is on its flank or against multiple targets, as a single chariot cannot charge multiple units. As I've said before, the only section dealing with that specific occurrence is the paragraph under the pursuit sub-section. While I understand that this situation might not occur solely as a result of a pursuit charge, the situation itself is what is important here.

And one final thing, I was talking to a friend of mine about this, and we came to an interesting conclusion that following this train of logic. If an empire detachment counter charges a chariot that just charged its parent unit, it does not suffer impact hits as it is on the chariot's flank. (See, I'm not out to simply screw the Empire here.) While not explicitly written in the rules, it only makes sense that it should work out that way.

EvC
23-08-2007, 11:14
Someone please explain to me why this person is trying to repeatedly use real world logic to justify and impliment rules for a device that does not really exist in a world that also doesn't really exist as it applies to it's place in tabletop gaming?

I implore you to look at my posts in context instead of making incredibly rude comments like this, especially when it was an entire page ago. My post was in response to someone who said we should look at the situation "logically" in a real world situation:

"Think about it logically for a minute. A Steam Tank causes impact hits by ramming things. How is it supposed to ram sideways? If it does impact hits to the front, how is it supposed to do hits to the rear at the same time?"

You'll also note that all my posts that were discussing the silly situation with Slaaneshi Slave were in direct response to him, and did use smileys. My other post did use smileys as I was actually dealing with the issue at hand, if that's ok with you.

Atrahasis
23-08-2007, 14:24
As I've said previously, the only thing stated in the Empire army book is that a steam tank does D3 impact hits per SP; it says nothing else. Look it up, I wouldn't lie to you; that's all it says.Why, then, apply any other rules? We know what an impact hit is, so why apply irrelevant rules from a situation that has no bearning on the one at hand?


I did think of something earlier today though. Basically, to put the impact hit rules into context with a steam tank, everywhere you see "charging chariot" in the impact hit rules section, replace it with "steam tank." Why would I do that? Nothing in the steam tank's rules requires me to do so.


as a single chariot cannot charge multiple units.Yes it can.

Shas'O Vash
23-08-2007, 16:27
Why, then, apply any other rules? We know what an impact hit is, so why apply irrelevant rules from a situation that has no bearning on the one at hand?

Why would I do that? Nothing in the steam tank's rules requires me to do so.


AHA! I think I've found the basis for our failure to communicate. You are basing your argument on the incorrect assumption that “everybody knows what an impact hit is”, without actually referencing its description in the main rulebook. An impact hit by its very definition in the rulebook is an automatic hit caused by a CHARGING CHARIOT that is distributed like shooting in the close combat phase before any blows are struck from the combatant involved; plus a few other qualifiers. Note that the rules say "charging chariot" not "any model inflicting impact hits". If one were so inclined to simply go by the very black and white RAW, a steam tank cannot do anything in close combat as it is most defiantly not a charging chariot. (Please note that I am not one of those people.) Applying the impact hits rules to steam tanks by its very nature makes us take those rules slightly out of context. A charging chariot can only usually charge one unit, so the main section of the impact hits rules is written from that very specific point of view. The steam tank can cause impact hits every turn and so does not fit into the context of that basic description at all. The pursuit sub-section describes a situation in which a “charging chariot”, or I guess you could say “model inflicting impact hits”, has enemy units on its flanks and rear. That section is the only place that describes that happenstance, and so it must be taken into account.

Edit: Reference page 18 in the main rulebook: “To declare a charge, indicate which unit is charging and nominate one enemy unit that it is going to attack.” In other words, a unit may normally only charge a single enemy unit and that enemy unit will always be on the unit's front; hence the underlying context of the impact hits rules description.

Atrahasis
23-08-2007, 16:41
What an impact hit is has nothing to do with chariots. that is merely the most usual way they are inflicted.

EvC
23-08-2007, 17:24
Edit: Reference page 18 in the main rulebook: “To declare a charge, indicate which unit is charging and nominate one enemy unit that it is going to attack.” In other words, a unit may normally only charge a single enemy unit and that enemy unit will always be on the unit's front; hence the underlying context of the impact hits rules description.

It's still possible to hit and charge two or more units with one chariot. Otherwise you'd have this laughable situation:

Th_hT
T___T

_CCC_

where T is terrain, h are enemy heroes, and C is your chariot that is unable to charge either hero, because it would have to hit both the models, which is apparently illegal according to that bit of the rulebook taken on its own ;)

Shas'O Vash
23-08-2007, 18:04
That special situation is covered on page 24 of the main rulebook. And I did correct myself to say that units could not normally charge two units. Although only one hero would be the intended target, but the other one would be hit because of the way the units lined up.

Atrahasis: “What an impact hit is has nothing to do with chariots. that is merely the most usual way they are inflicted.”

It has everything to do with chariots. Impact hits are only ever defined in the rulebook in the context of charging chariots and nowhere else. If the rulebook had a generic section that pertained to any unit inflicting impact hits, and not under the context of charging chariots, then impact hits would have its own entry under the special rules section on page 94, not under the chariot rules on page 63.

Atrahasis
23-08-2007, 18:19
The rules don't work that way.

Psychology passing between rider and mount is covered only in the characters section, yet it applies to non-characters.

Armour saves are only given a full treatment in the shooting section, yet they apply in most other cases.

The fact that a rule appears in a particular section does not grant any unit referencing that rule any of the other properties described in that section. A steam tank does not inflict impact hits lexactly like a charging chariot. It inflicts impact hits, which, yes, are usually inflicted by charging chariots. However being inflicted by a charging chariot is not a defining aspect of impact hits.

Shas'O Vash
24-08-2007, 00:28
Ok this is getting kind of silly. This thread is just grasping at straws and getting really far off topic now. Since it appears that there are only two or three of us left arguing the point anyway, I’ll have to conclude that everything relevant that can be said about this topic has already been said. Obviously neither of us is going to convince the other about the undisputed correctness of our interpretation of the impact hit rules. Unless anyone else has a fresh viewpoint to add to the conversation, I think we’ll just have to end this thing agreeing to disagree. Who knows, maybe GW will address this in a FAQ one day.

DaBrode
24-08-2007, 02:04
The rules don't work that way.

Psychology passing between rider and mount is covered only in the characters section, yet it applies to non-characters.

Armour saves are only given a full treatment in the shooting section, yet they apply in most other cases.

The fact that a rule appears in a particular section does not grant any unit referencing that rule any of the other properties described in that section. A steam tank does not inflict impact hits lexactly like a charging chariot. It inflicts impact hits, which, yes, are usually inflicted by charging chariots. However being inflicted by a charging chariot is not a defining aspect of impact hits.


This is all very true and kinda squashes any argument Shas'O had going IMO. I'm with Atrahasis at this point.

T10
24-08-2007, 07:15
However being inflicted by a charging chariot is not a defining aspect of impact hits.

Well, if I wasn't conviced before (I was) then I am now. :)

-T10

JAB
24-08-2007, 08:13
I must have missed it, but does the steam tank inflict D3 (per SP) wounds on each enemy hit, or D3 hits in total (no matter how many enemy units)?

T10
24-08-2007, 08:19
The Steam Tank deals 1d3 hits per steam point spent, and those hits are applied against its "opponents".

Against multiple opponents I suggest the following procedure:

1. Declare the number op SP spent on "grinding".
2. Roll the appropriate number of d3's to establish the number of hits.
3. Distribute those hits among the units the Steam Tank is fighting.

So if you are fighting three units and roll 8 hits you might want to assign 5 hits to one unit, 3 hits on the next and no hits on the last unit.

-T10

Atrahasis
24-08-2007, 11:43
Personally I think each Steam point is most closely analogous to an attack, so assigning D3's rather than individual hits makes more sense to me. However any approach is a house rule since the actual rules fail hopelessly at dealing with it.

Who knows what GW will decide when the FAQ comes along?

EvC
24-08-2007, 12:50
You mean "if", surely...

Atrahasis
24-08-2007, 14:53
You mean "if", surely...

I have every confidence that this will be addressed in an FAQ.

The timescale involved may not be to everyone's taste, and the answer is sure to raise eyebrows, but I'm sure it will be addressed.