Thoughts on Grey Knight?

I haven't played 40k in a while. After 5th edition came out I gravitated to FB and have really been enjoying that. However, in light of an impending 6th edition, I thought I'd take a gander at some of the newer 40k armies. GK had always caught my eye; not just because of the fluff, but because the idea of a super elite army that really could defeat 2 or 3 times it's number on the field has always appealed to me. Most every game I play, I try to win against insurmountable odds. It is the most epic way to win.

Having said that... Grey Knights. How have they been received in the current meta. I know the rules for 40k, but having been out of touch with the game since space wolves came out, I'm not really sure where GK fit in the current meta.

Are they actually effective in that ultra elite sense?

Are they "broken" in any way, for good or I'll? For example, will people roll their eyes when they see me plop down a GK army?

Where would they be ranked in the competitive scene?

I guess I'm just looking for an overall feel to the army. I have the dex, but as I mentioned, I feel very out of touch with the overall gaming community, so it's hard for mr to judge the army in relation to it's peers. Anyone feel like helping me out? Thanks!

This.

Will not end well.

That is all. Do a search and you'll see how vitriolic this topic will get.

Wow. Didn't realize this was a hot topic. Shows how out of touch I've been. I did a search and found the GK tactics thread but it wasn't on the most current 4 pages of thread topics so I figured it was rather defunct...

So... If I may stoke the fire just a tad, and please remember that I am a neutral party just asking some questions... But, "what's the hubbub, bub?"

GK are very powerful. They will satisfy your desire to have a small elite army that is more than capable of killing more than their 'fair share' of enemies.

Shortly after the Grey Knight codex came out, my local play group was flooded with Grey Knight players. Other MEQ armies found themselves badly outmatched, so much so that many people I know have quit playing altogether, as they're just sick of playing against Grey Knights with what amounts to a severe handicap from the outset: a good Grey Knight army can usually outshoot and out close combat its MEQ competitors.

Non-MEQ armies may also be affected, but IMO not as severely; for example a Guard army can blast a Grey Knight army off the table much like it would another MEQ opponent.

GK are not an autowin (at least not against all armies), but noone would say, you won "against insurmountable odds"

Looks like we found another purifier spam player.

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Originally Posted by Nurgling Chieftain

Non-MEQ armies may also be affected, but IMO not as severely; for example a Guard army can blast a Grey Knight army off the table much like it would another MEQ opponent.

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Tell that to Tyranids. They're the GK's whipping boys.

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Originally Posted by Kevlar

Looks like we found another purifier spam player.

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On the contrary, my desire isn't to cheese anything out. Honestly, when I said I wanted to win against insurmountable odds, I was just trying to be poetic. I play this game to have fun, and if I lose by dying a glorious, sacrificial death to stem the tide of evil just a little bit, as long as the game was well fought, that's fine. I don't mind losing. I don't want to press an auto win button. There is no fun in that at all.

But I guess I'm getting a pretty vivid answer to my question: the community is resentful toward the new GK... at least the meq community is... Unfortunate.

Grey knights can be very powerful if done right and there are some who will not play against them. As for me i think that having grey knight armies across the table makes my victory all the sweeter

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Originally Posted by BBWags

the community is resentful toward the new GK... at least the meq community is... Unfortunate.

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It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

Having narrowly lost with Daemons against them recently (I left the guy with a single Strike Squad and a Raven), I would say that for all their ridiculousness, most of the conventional stuff that works against Marines works against them pretty well too - Bloodcrushers can make pretty nice Purifier jam. But yeah, you're rarely going to have a real challenge using them.

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Originally Posted by Mánagarmr

It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

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Fair enough. Ok, let me ask another question... Or at least come at the situation in a different way. What about the book is broken? Namely, are the troops selections broken? If you played a game against a GK opponent that had a terminator squad and two gkpa units as the core and no more of one choice of any other particular selection (except for vehicles, obviously), then does the MEQ opponent still not stand a chance? Or is it only the elite and fast attack choices that are broken?

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?

If their codex was anything to go by, they should be specialized Marine hunters in the fluff - not Daemon hunters.

Guard, Dark Eldar, and somewhat curiously, Khorne Daemons of all things, tend to do pretty well against them. Everyone else is fighting an uphill battle. If you're seeking a challenging play experience, they're not the army for you.

For Tyranids, a squad of Purifiers counts as a hard counter to everything in our army. Thank god for Shadow in the Warp though.

Chaos Demons are hilariously good against GK, so long as they survive the shooting to get some Bloodletters into CC.

IG can wipe them off the table.

MEQ are basically boned though.

Take into account that we tend to exaggerate things we dislike, which is the case of GK, but they really are too damn good and their fluff has a lot of abominable stuff in it.

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Originally Posted by BBWags

Fair enough. Ok, let me ask another question... Or at least come at the situation in a different way. What about the book is broken? Namely, are the troops selections broken? If you played a game against a GK opponent that had a terminator squad and two gkpa units as the core and no more of one choice of any other particular selection (except for vehicles, obviously), then does the MEQ opponent still not stand a chance? Or is it only the elite and fast attack choices that are broken?

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?

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The 'problem' stems from the combinations of a few things IMO.

The GK's basic gear is quite astonishing by an other army's standards. The bare bones basic PAGK wields a force sword and a storm bolter. Then there's psychic powers on top of that.

This is put 'over the top' by the upgrades/options they have from there on. Be it force halibards that grant +2 init and are still force weapons to psybolts.

The points costs of both the basic troops' gear and the upgrades is very 'out-of-whack' compared to what it offers in terms of bonuses for points (they're widely viewed as way way too cheap).

I love herohammer. I played 3.5ed CSM wordbeaerers with a crazy tooled up DP, and now SWs with a crazy tooled up WL. I am the perfect candidate to move on over to GK, and believe me the desire is there, but I do not because I love the SW codex more. It strikes just the right balance between customization and competitiveness, while actually properly representing Space Marines from the fluff. GKs have units comprised of seemingly only heroes, no 'troops'.

I do not have any problems with playing against GK or other people playing GK.

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Originally Posted by Grimtuff

Tell that to Tyranids.

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I will if I find any. The last hive fleet I saw was wiped out by splinter fire before the Grey Knight codex even hit the shelves. :p

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Originally Posted by BBWags

What about the book is broken? ...

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?

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Sadly, there's too much to summarize. With Guard, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves, you can sum up what makes them top-tier in just a handful of units each. With Grey Knights, you have things like every non-vehicle model coming with a force weapon and +1Str psychic power standard, and every vehicle coming with a 5 point vehicle "upgrade" that ignores virtually all shaken and stunned results, and another pseudo-optional 5 point vehicle upgrade that increases most weapon strengths by 1. Purifiers, death cult assassins, and "psyfilemen" may typify the most powerful builds, but that's really just piling insult onto injury.

Are there any hypothetical GK builds that aren’t overpowered? How bad can you make an army?

Well, considering that the basic trooper has a power weapon that causes instant death, 24" assault weapons, and all manner of grenades, they can't really be that bad. You might have some luck with henchmen, but that requires a special character and dedication to making a bad list.

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Originally Posted by wyvirn

Well, considering that the basic trooper has a power weapon that causes instant death, 24" assault weapons, and all manner of grenades, they can't really be that bad. You might have some luck with henchmen, but that requires a special character and dedication to making a bad list.

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This kind of made me laugh... A huge point in favor of GK for me. Why, because I want an overpowered juggernaut? Nope! Because usually I'll take a dex and instantaneously choose to go with the one strategy that simply isn't viable in that particular book :-)

Maybe if I play GK, I can play a fluffy list that is still competitive.