Tob's guide to playing Eldar competitively

[Bubbatron]

Thanks for this, very handy as i've just started to get back into 40K and its taking a bit to find my feet ! Got to agree with you on the pistol firing rangers though, ive seen them take down a unit of Ork Buggies with their pistols (shoulda seen his face ! priceless !!!)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

A good guide, and that's from a non-eldar player.

Though I have to say...this totally confirms my long-standing prejudice of Eldar provolone prevalence! Heh. Still, that T3/4+ Save makes 'em plenty mortal...as long as I don't have to deal with the triple threat Falcon play I can live with the rest, I guess.

Still, I cry guddha at their book!

[forgotten hero]

interesting read..

don't agree with all of it, autarch's/farseers "pathetic".. erm i dont think your using them right. plus they are cheaper than the others. i am a fan of the autarch, warp pack generator and fusion gun, great for deep striking a dropping a tank.

i play mech, and have done well, so i dont see the point in an avatar, hes way to slow to be effective for this type of army.

so i am interested in what type of army you play..

-Rob

[Tob]

bigred: The price I guess but everybody seem to agree with you. I used them in quite a few games in the old and new codex and never got anything out of them which is a shame since I have a really nice painted squad of 7 and 3 more to paint. They don't fit my playing style but I will try them out again and get back to everybody on the results.

The Eldar list has plenty of s6 weapons or better most of it vehicle mounted.

Forgotten Hero:I don't think an Autarch can deep stike unless he has the swooping hawk wings or is part of a warp spider squad with surprise assault. I don't like the tactic your autarch will most likely end up dead and thats 100 points wasted for a single shot. Tau players have much better units for this tactic (crisis suits) They are cheaper but you don't see Tau players lining up to use this tatic.

The thing about the avatar is he should not fit in a mech army but he does because he is undercosted by quite a large margin. That's the short explanation. It's not like he's night bringer and costs over 300 points he's only 155 and much cheaper than a phoenix lord for some reason.

Oh has anyone used the warp spider pack on their autarch and had him disappear into the warp. I want to know if anybody has actually done this.

I will post some of my lists later...

[Sovereign]

Again reapers are an anti-MEQ unit against orks each reaper needs to kill around 4 orks to make their points back.

I would not hesitate to take 2 (or 3) full Reaper squads with Exarch armed with Fast EML. Dropping 2 AP4 Plasma missiles is absolute murder on light infantry. S5 en masse is also solid against light vehicles.

Also, firing 2 shots over 6 turns, I think a Reaper has a very decent chance to kill 4 Orks.

Keep them together and they can dish out a very respectable amount of firepower.

[Skyth]

I definitely disagree with the Autarch...Autarch on a jetbike plus reaper is a nice anti-MEQ move-shoot-move unit. The master strategist really helps out the Mech Eldar, plus if he kills without being killed, he is useful.

Another thing that is good are Dire Avengers with bladestorm/defend and shimmershield. One of the only troops choices that can actually charge genestealers. I've had alot of good luck with them. I do disagree with putting them in Falcons though. You need the full squads, and 6 won't pack the punch you need.

As for Dark Reapers...A fortuned squad of reapers in 4+ cover is hard to budge.

[Ragewind]

Oh has anyone used the warp spider pack on their autarch and had him disappear into the warp. I want to know if anybody has actually done this.

Interestingly enough I did just that today, in a few 750 point games. Out of using him in 3 games I lost him twice on crappy rolls, both around turn 3. My opponent was VERY happy.

[Tob]

Sovereign: An army with 2-3 squads of reapers would run into a lot of trouble. Yes they are powerful against certain things but against tanks they are not that great plus they are static and easy to out flank. In certain games you will find it difficult to draw line of sight or end up out of position. They are still good but not in a competitive way.

Ragewind: And what do we learn?

Skyth: Do you plan on getting Dire Avengers into combat on a regular basis? I know I don't even with upgrades they are not the best at hand to hand combat. Two catapults for me I think for 5 extra bs5 shots.

Good point on the jetbike reaper autarch though that sounds like it may work. Tad expensive for jump shoot jump though Tau get it much cheaper.

In a Falcon dire avengers are merely ok it's much better to put other things in them.

[elvinltl]

So far my Autarch had not been consumed by the Warp and even so he is attached to a WS squad allowing a WS to be removed as casualty instead of him. And so far since i started fielding WS, i seldom roll doubles...

And the assault phase warping should be used sparingly, honstly if you use WS properly there is no need to warp away and this also explains why i favour Spinneret rifle over additional death spinner because of its pinning ability.

[Sovereign]

That is why Eldar play Combined Arms Maneuver Warfare.

Dark Reapers will practically always earn their points back because there will invariably be something to shoot within 48". Against Rhino and Trukk and other light vehicles, they're OK.

Sure, they suck against heavy tanks, but that's not their battlefield role. If you wouldn't send Dire Avengers after a Leman Russ, then you shouldn't plan on having Reapers kill a Russ, either.

[Blackmoor]

Your tactics are good for a Mech Eldar list.

But as others have said, there are more than one way to play Eldar. I play a footslogging army with a lot of infantry.

And I disagree with you about Dark Reapers. They are not only very durable when in good cover, but they can really dish it out. Put guide and fortune on them, and the will do wonders. As far as not being able to do anything against tanks, I have 2 strength 8 shots as BS 5 that says that I can.

[Orkusmorkus]

Ok I've done the maths for the Fire Prisms ordeal. Rounded to 3 s.f. This took a while but here it is.

For shooting at an AV13 vehicle(non open-topped):

Dividing the shots:

Do nothing=0.444
1 Glance=0.148
1 Penetrate=0.296
1 Glance, 1 Penetrate=0.0494
2 Glance=0.0123
2 Penetrate=0.0494

Combining the shots:

Do nothing=0.407
Penetrate=0.593

Its pretty hard to make a judgement from these stats, but I would say that combining the shots seems far more reliable(less chance of doing nothing), however splitting them has the potential for bigger damage(ie. two penetating shots).

I didn't do the maths for AV14, but can fairly safely say it would be a no-contest, the combined shot clearly being better. I'm sick of doing probability now anyways.

For AV12 or below,or skimmers, probably stick with keeping the shots individual.

Enjoy

[blackspring]

The value of an Avatar is the fear he inspires in your opponent. The practical use of the Avatar is as that of a fire-magnet. I play a 2000-point Eldar Mech list with a squad of Guardians and an Avatar beginning in the center and slowly making their way up. This does one of two things.

1) Either my opponent tries to avoid the Avatar and therefore effectively splits his army into two bite-size packages for my mech to eat up OR
2) He concentrates all of his fire on the Avatar which frees up my mech eldar to do what they do best, dominate the board in maneuverability and firepower.
3) There's probably a third but I can't think of it right now. I'll leave that to somebody else.

As to the effectiveness of the warp spiders, I think they are probably our best fast attack choice, being able to move 12" during the movement phase firing 10-20+ S6 shots then either moving another 2-12" or assaulting with 10-20+ with a possible 4 power weapon attacks during the assault phase. Then their next turn, assuming they have survived the close-combat, moving out of the combat only to repeat their previous assault. That is nothing to scoff at.

[Tulun]

I'll add my own thoughts (your HQ is the most contentious for good reason!). You have a lot of sound advice in most of your tactica, though I think that a more infantry Eldar can work, it just requires more finesse. It definitely is easier to win with a primarily mechanized force, everything being above to move and re-deploy quickly (be it jump pack, skimmer, bike) is something you can't underrate.

1) The Avatar, as you describe, is in a way useless in your army. Your style of army is mounted (which is good), but leadership is FAR less important when mounted, since you won't be taking break tests. He is also incredibly slow, and in escalation, will fall behind very easily. IMO, the Avatar is a good HQ, but NOT the best by far in random scenarios. He's much more suited to more infantry around him to inspire, and if there is little chance (ideally none) he'll start off the board.

I agree Eldrad is awesome, but only in games where you can the points can afford him. For example, I take a Farseer with Spear, Runes of Warding and Guide for 93 points (mounted in a Falcon, guiding the Falcon and Dragons as needed). He fulfills the HQ slot and provides excellent support for the vital tank hunting / TMC hunting role. Once points hit large enough, I can see lots of argument for taking Eldrad, though.

The Autarch is sort of meh, but he is nice for Escalation purposes (I've rolled escalation 7 games in a row ...). I think bike mounted is generally the way to go, or at the very least giving him wings/jump pack and a fusion gun. Not useless, but definitely not as potent as other eldar HQ choices, mainly used for his support ability.

I agree on Phoenix Lords... but I think Ra is probably still worth it as his cost 3 foot assault moving rending Shuriken Cannon (with bonus shots to boot...) coupled with his executioner makes him an incredibly versatile HQ. He does fit in more with an infantry based force, though, which fits more awkwardly.

2) Troops. Now I, myself, am not a huge fan of Guardians, but I don't think they deserve the bad wrap they get. It's just their design makes them so you can't really use their basic gun (which is really, really poorly done). You don't really wanna get close with Guardians because they don't perform at all at that distance. They are simply to fragile to approach.
BUT, for holding an objective, they perform very well. You don't have to always throw a Falcon down to hold an objective. A squad of 10 Guardians with a platform, add a warlock with Embolden (greatly decreases breaking), and throw them in cover. Add more wounds if you'd like, but that's an 11 man squad that will hold an objective if you sit them at 3 feet. And they can move and shoot and fleet as required.
I think they are a decent troop for this purpose, and in a building, will do you rather decently. just pull back against those Hellhounds

3) Warp Spiders

I wouldn't underestimate these; hell, my opponents HATE these with a passion. They are incredibly fast, so they can easily use terrain to approach. While their jump is variable, you can carefully maneuver to try and limit the bad rolls. With withdrawl and a 3+ save, it has to be a pretty deadly opponent to kill them in 1 round, as well, and they can just leave right after.
I find they work very well to combine arms and wipe a unit out. As well, due to their mobility, they can easily hit side/back armor of vehicles, and tank hunt easily. They also double up very nicely against MEQs for overloading wounds, and even TMCs with 3+ saves (2+ is just a bitch to crack ) have been wiped out in 1 round due to the Deathspinner fire.

Support Platforms:

I wouldn't get too negative on the shadow weaver. In low point games, it's actually a very cheap way of getting indirect fire... You can get a couple for 60 points, and unlike War Walkers, they are far less at risk of dying (you should have some terrain to hide 2 of these behind). It does suck in escalation, though. It's also nice to have a shot at a unit hiding behind cover, or those pesky Stealth Suits, and unlike the d-cannon, it has the range to fall back on.
Of course, in larger games, you probably want to default to a WL or Falcon or Prism instead, since these are much nastier in the end.

[Tulun]

As for Dark Reapers...A fortuned squad of reapers in 4+ cover is hard to budge.

Incredibly expensive squad, though

[Tob]

Tulun: The avatar is seriously under rated have you ever used him much? I can assure you he is far from useless. He is ideal at beating MEQ armies. How good the avatar is becomes apparent when you compare him to a phoenix lord. The avatar is a lot cheaper and at the same time much more powerful. Even if he can't make close combat he usually kills things with his sword attack and makes his points back. Most the time though he hacks through squads which cost a lot more than him.

Ok his lack speed may make him somewhat of a noob killer. He is far better against inexperienced players and people who don't know how to deal with him.

I run him in my casual games but leave him out for tournaments because I expect my opponents to be clever and escalation to be more of a factor. Still overall an extremely powerful HQ. So ok I concede the point to you perhaps in a competitive list he may not be the best choice always.

I would not take Maugan Ra or any other phoenix lord in any of my armies they are over costed for what they do despite having awesome rules.

Infantry Eldar armies don't find it impossible to win games they just find it harder than a decent mech list like you say.

you will never convince me on the shadow weaver barrage weapons are lame if they are not ordinance. War walkers are far better.

Thanks for the stats on the fire prisms Orkusmorkus I will bear them in mind when I use my fire prisms.

[jigplums]

An interesting read although like most people i have some differences of opinion as to which units,hq's etc take the top spots and like most think that warpspiders have a place. For me they have usually worked well at killing tanks, and can turn there hand against other units. i usually have squads of 6 or 8 and the number of glancing hits you get vs the side and rear armour of vechiles can make a big difference.

The main flaw with the fully mech list is that if you go second in a non-escalation game then your tanks may do nothing at all. ususally 2 tanks should be hideable but after that you'll be lucky to be able to and sometimes not even that. Wraithlords are reliable shooters i arm mine with BL, and EML for tank busting and have good results. Plus they give you a big model to hide behind.
Warlock units for there points are very affective, even under the new dex. a 75% probability of saving any wounding hits that come there way when fortuned makes them very tough. They start in escalation and have fleet so should reach cc by turn 3 latest and will absorb a hell of alot of fire on the way in. If they are supported properly they can be virtually unstoppable.

[jigplums]

take a look at this list a see what you think? it was made as a try not to be skimmer heavy list
http://www.heresy-online.net/viewtopic.php?t=2711

[Laughingmonk]

Warp spiders do not sit well with my play style at all. They are the opposite of dealing one short sharp blow to the enemy. Warp spiders hover around close the the enemy army and chip away at them over time giving your opponent plenty of time to deal with them.

This is debatable. I play against necrons, Marines, Tyranids and Tau, and I find the sheer amount of str 6 firepower is enough to cripple or destroy many units. Such as destroyers, they have a tendency of dying extra fast to my spider unit. Also, most armor tends tobe wasted, and the autarch plus exarch is enough to annihilate tau in CC. Bear in Mind, I also play cityfight exclusively.

I agree on your assessment of the Avatar. He is quite possibly the most points efficient HQ in the game, IMO. He just needs to find his place in the army.

My latest List looks like this. Bear in mind, I play cityfight exclusively:


2000 pt omega level cityfight list

Autarch w/ fusion blaster, power weapon, mandiblasters and jump generator.

Avatar

12 guardians w/ scatter laser

12 guardians w/ starcannon

10 dire avengers

9 warp spiders inc. exarch w/ 2x spinners and both skills

10 swooping hawks inc. exarch with hawks talon and both skills

Vyper with eml

6 fire dragons

8 harlequins inc. shadowseer and 7 kisses

Falcon w/ starcannon, holofields and spirit stones

Prism w/ holofields, and spirit stones

Wraithlord w/ bright lance and wraithblade.



It did an awesome job for the lost few games, scoring me massacres every time. My favoured strategems are deep strike, Demolitions, and Booby Traps.

The list is awesome against mech lists, and the starcannons and harlies down Monstrous creatures pretty well.

I have to be honest. The list looks bad on paper. But when a wraithlors, avatar, and harlies pair themselves up, it's pretty scary. Same with Swooping hawks and warp spiders. Scarrier in game than on paper.


The last Game I played was against a marine player that used (about) the following:

2 land speeder tornadoes

Land speeder typhoon w/ multi melta and typhoon missile gun

3 razorbacks, one with lascannon upgrade, 2 with tl heavy bolters.

Each razorback carried six marines. Didn't know what they had.

1 land raider, carrying terminators w/ 2x assault cannon

3x predator destructors w/ heavy bolter side sponsons

Dreadnought with lascannons and ccw

The only things left standing at turn 5 was 2 squads and an immobilized predator with a missing autocannon. I lost the swooping hawks, fire dragons, and a couple of guardians (and one warp spider due to jump mishap).

He knew he was playing against me, and he knew that my usual lists had only medium anti tank (I usually go for objectives in cityfight, or simply kill and evade for VP).

I like Swooping hawks, hence I included them. They work stupid good with warp spiders.

What do you think Tob?

The dire avengers really didn't do anything, and am pondering just replacing them with another guardian squad w/ a scatter laser. Guardians are great in cityfight, where their numbers and fleet is absolutely indespensible, and when they take objectives they can assist in the fight like dire avengers cannot (since they can take heavy weapons).

[downundercadet07]

Hey Tob, I though I would give my perspective on this, since I run (competitively) a list which I guess you haven't seen a lot of. The Eldar infantry list.

First off, a min-sized unit of dire avengers is cheaper than a min-sized unit of bikers. By 5-6 points. Nothing big, but, it was bugging me.

As I said, I run an Eldar infantry army. I have six squads of infantry in my 1500 point army, none of which ride transports. They are, 4x5 pathfinders, 8 banshees, and 8 warp spiders with a buffed exarch. The remaining points are filled by 3 completely tricked out fire prims, and a doomseer with runes of warding.

The list works really well because it is very, very durable. You have to shoot 81 lascannons shots at each of my fire prisms to bring them down. I have three. Each pathfinder effectively has a 2+ invulnerable save. And as for the warp spiders, banshees, and farseer, you can't shoot what you can't see. (Unless you have indirect...)

When you have a list that durable you leverage your durability and range advantage for your numbers and heavy weapon disadvantage. Having to pick between using your heavy weapons to fire at cheapish 2+ save snipers or expensive but unkillable prisms is an unattractive choice. Additionally, an armies basic weapons are going to be useless for at least two turns, so for two turns, every point spent on bolters, flamers, shootas, etc. is a total waste.

I use pathfinders (although I refer to them in games as Rangers, as fielding a squad of pathfinders fluffwise should be like putting a five man unit of Vindicare assassins on the table) in a few different roles.

-- The stealth drop unit. This one is my favorite. During the infilitration stage of deployment, put a five man pathfinder unit behind some LOS blocking cover. Don't move or shoot it for the rest of the game. Just leave it there. Then at the end of the game, hey look! I contest that table quarter. With what? Yeah, that unit, right there. Painted foliage camouflage. In the foliage. It is funny, but painting them actually works as intended, the enemy doesn't see them, and since they don't attract attention to themselves, ignores them.

-- Making TMC players cry. This one is much more straightforward. The alaitoc ranger army is the rock to the TMC's scissors. Dropping 2 carnifexs a turn with your troop choices is rough on the nid players. Also works for Iyandan and DP spam armies.

-- Removing tough squads. Pathfinders are one of the only troops choices in the game that can remove really tough enemy squads with long-ranged firepower in a single turn. The psychological effect of loosing an entire terminator command squad just from the firing of 20 troops choice models is severe. Especially since you always shoot your pathfinders first. In a 1500 point game, you can literally decimate an army in the first turn with just your troops, rolling below the statistical average. If you do this, and then the opponent sees your real MEQ killers, the prisms, haven't even fired yet, he is already mentally in a bad place.

-- Assault bait. One of the problems with totally mech armies is that although they are largely immune to assault threats, it can be tricky for them to wipe out an assault army that is avoiding them. Pathfinders taunt assault troops like no other with their 2+ cover, and 5+ mundane saves. Perfect assault bait. When you can count on the enemy coming to you, a lot of the advantages harlequins have over banshees go away. Castling strong with my banshees, farseer, and pathfinders lets me plink away at the enemies long-raged support while the bad guys close in. Then, they get a charge from a doomed banshee squad. As any mathhammer fanatic can tell you, it doesn't get much nastier than a large unit of doomed banshees on the charge.

However, as good as pathfinders are (and I would argue that they are in the top 2 of the units in the Eldar codex) if they aren't supported properly, they become mush quickly. So

-- Block assault routes with the prisms. These guys can eat an absurd amount of firepower, so it isn't likely that whatever is trying to chop their way past them is going to get through. They can physically block areas of advance towards the pathfinders, adjusting the timing of the battle so that banshees are nearly guaranteed to get the charge.

-- Keep the Castle in tact. You have to have the defensive phalanx of pathfinders and banshees and prisms within pretty close proximity to properly repel assault troops and deep strikers. I like to hole up on a table edge or corner, and cluster everybody in tight, and force the bad guys to make a risky drop. If they don't scatter off the table or into one of my models, they have five infantry squads to choose from with their shooting. If it is a standard termy asscan squad, I can count on trading one infantry squad for his. If he nails the banshees, I'm going to blast him with all the snipers and if necessary, the tanks. If he nails a pathfinder squad, I'm going to carve him with banshees. Either way, it is a bad points exchange for him, on the order of 100 or so points at best.

-- The warp spiders go into battle dead. I don't expect them to ressurect during the battle. By this, I mean I totally right them off. They aren't a cheap unit, but they don't play the who can get more points-kills game the rest of the army does. Unless there is die-now ordo on the field, they just drift around and annoy the enemy, who is focusing on the castle.

Anyway, I hope that after reading this, you'll maybe field a few proxied pathfinders in a future game and try out an Eldar infantry army!

PS-- try it in Cities of Death with the Master Snipers stratagem for getting-kicked-out-of-your-gaming-club fun!