Questions: Pile In, Cover spells and consolidation

[Grim2005]

Hello
I have few questions... let’s start
1. Pile In (p 44)
"At the end of each assault phase, models in units that were locked, but which are not themselves engaged in combat MUST move up to 6" in an attempt to contact enemy that were in same combat."
Who can fight? (p 38)
The following models in a Locked unit are said to be engaged in combat and can fight at full effect:
- Models in base-to-base contact with an enemy model.
- Models within 2" of a friendly model of same unit, which itself is in base-to-base contact with an enemy model.
Here is first my question... Are models in danger zone don’t make Pile In move because they engaged?

2. Are units can make Pile In move, after they make consolidation to new unit and lock him in combat?

3. Are Space Wolf’s units with Storm Caller on them always getting strike first (in 10) even they attack unit not in cover? I ask this because our judge gone mad. He thinks what Storm Caller Faq (in Space Wolfs Faq 4.1) overrides rules in rulebook.
"1. Remember that plasma and frag grenades only work if the unit that has them charges. If a unit with Storm Caller on it charges an opponent with either grenade type, they will strike first as this grenades are of no use then receiving charge."
I told him what this note about grenades and in rule book we have rule about cover bonuses (p 39) and if unit (with spell on it) charge, it don’t get any bonuses. Am I right?

[azimaith]

1: Pile in attempts to move models into base contact, not simply into a threat zone. So everyone piles in, even those in 2"

2:They can only pile in if there is an enemy to pile into. In the case of a masscre in one turn you do not pile in rather you simply consolidate d6. So no, you can't pile in then consolidate into another group. You can only do one or the other, consolidate if you win or they flee, or pile in if they stay. But you can lock another unit in close combat with a consolidate of course.

3:Grenades other than tau photons play no part in stormcaller. Grenades only function if your charging into cover or at least into a unit that counts as always being in cover. Unless your hiding in cover when a stormcallered unit attacks you and by some bizzarre twist (allies?) they manage to get their mitts on plasmas they will strike in initiative order. So no, no bonuses for grenades other than photons to getting stormcaller charged.

[Grim2005]

1. Hmm arent models in danger zone already engaged?
3. The question not about grenades. I told before our judge gived to Space Wolfs unit with Storm Caller always strike first even they charge unit which not in cover. Because of note in Space Wolfs Faq
"...If a unit with Storm Caller on it charges an opponent with either grenade type, they will strike first...". Are they realy strike first in charge?

[mattjgilbert]

1. Any model not in b2b contact or within 2" of a model which is in b2b contact can make a pile-in move.

2. You can consolidate into another unit and then lock them (preventing them from consolidating themselves). You cannot then pile into them as well. After combat resolution in the next assault phase, you could then make pile in moves as normal if necessary.

3. Don't have the SW codex to hand so I'll leave this one. What azimaith said makes sense though...

[azimaith]

1: Like Matt said. It says b2b not engaged.

3: They do always strike first because they count as being in cover and striking at initaitive 10 *unless* they are charging into cover in which case you strike simil (as bother are in cover and thus both strike at 10.) The 10 initiative is generally only of the unit being charged but with storm caller its noted that they get their 10 initiative regardless of who charges who.

Anyhow, all it says is that you count as being in cover, and get the benefits of being in cover while charging, and so it plays out exactly like that. You strike at iniative 10 even when charging. If the enemy unit is in cover you strike simil. If the enemy unit has frags/plasmas these grenades do nothing as they must be used on the charge, not when being charged. Photons still do their thing.

BTW FAQ's do override the rulebook, they are newer are designed exclusively to point out the proper way to do things in a specific situation unlike the general rule book.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

1. The rulebook actually, literally contradicts itself on this point (twice, no less). The local league had to settle the issue with a house rule.

2. Pile-in moves and consolidation moves are mutually exclusive, since you only pile-in to the existing combat you just fought and you only consolidate if that combat ended.

3. The Codex Space Wolves FAQ 4.1 is specifically for 4th edition so of course overrules the codex and rulebook where relevant.

[Grim2005]

3. So Space Wolfs unit will always strike first becouse of cover spell? Even if in rule book we have rule (p 39).
"Note that cover advantage applies only to models in cover that are being charged. Some units count as being in cover all the time becouse of psychic abilities or weird force fields, but this are of no benefit if the unit itself charges"

[azimaith]

except in the space wolf codex it specifically states they strike at initiative 10 even when charging. The rule below does not apply because they are not counted as always being in cover.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

If it were just the rulebook and the codex, that'd be one thing, but it's the official FAQ whose express purpose is explaining how to use that codex in 4th edition.

[Grim2005]

They in cover becouse of psychic power...
ok any other psychic power in 40k which gives cover?

[azimaith]

the cover they are referring to is those such as eldar who have the psychic power concealment grabbing them a 5+ cover save at all times, or the chameleonic scales of a a lictor. They do not gain any benefit for such cover in close combat.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

They in cover becouse of psychic power...
ok any other psychic power in 40k which gives cover?

Um, why, yes, actually. That aside, insinuations will never beat explicit, official rules.

[mattjgilbert]

1. The rulebook actually, literally contradicts itself on this point (twice, no less). The local league had to settle the issue with a house rule.

So how do you see it then chief? We always played that ALL models not in b2b could pile in but reading it again yesterday to answer this question I see it is only models which are locked but not ENGAGED which means those not in b2b but within 2" of a model who is CANNOT pile in (becasue they are already in a position to use their attacks I presume is the thinking).
We should clear this up (if possible after what you said about contradiction) and I'll add it to the FAQ.

[Nurgling Chieftain]

On page 36 the rulebook says the opposite. Also, the diagram on page 44 appears to contradict its caption.

I'm very much of two minds on this issue. From a pure rules standpoint I'd have to go with the "actual" rule, and say that engaged models don't pile in.

But I prefer the other rule (in which models not in B2B pile in) for several reasons: it leads to less absurd engagement-breaks (it's very easy to break engagement if models don't have to try to get into B2B, leading to models getting away and not being attacked when they really ought to have been overrun after several rounds of combat), it doesn't screw lash whips and tail weapons ("oh, look, I only got one guy into B2B and I don't have to pile in the other 9 so you never get your tail attacks and I only lose one attack to the lash whip").

Our local league agreed to make B2B the requirement after trying it different ways for a lot of games. It just works better.

So, that's probably not very helpful, but there you have it.

[mattjgilbert]

I'm favour of the not-in-b2b can pile-in ruling. Simply because that is the way we play it now.

[Grim2005]

Yes but I know some dirty tricks with Pile In rule. People can free their units from Hth.
Yup we have very bad diorama on page 44, because we have 3 types of Combatants (btb, Danger zone and models away from danger zone). And it shows us only two types, I think this picture just explains nature of Pile In, but not rules.