Varingyr BFG Fleet

[Easy E]

Greetings,

As some of you know, the Varingyr project is the re-introduction of the squats into the 40K universe in a re-imagined way. You can find more information out in the Background
"Death of the Squats" http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46402 ,
Stories and Art "Re-inventing Squat concept art" http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59021, and the Rules dev the "Varingyr Rules Development Thread" http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89616
If you want more Varingyr reading just follow the links.

Now, onto this thread. The first step is identifying what traits we want the BFG fleet to represent and the general way we want it to play on the table. Here are some themes from both the Dwarf Archetype and the Army List thread that might help out:

Varingyr are:
1. Defensive in nature
2. Limited Mobility
3. Solid reliable Technology

Feel free to add more based on what niche you think they can fill in BFG and your understanding of the Varingyr.

Let's discuss!

[absentmindedfish]

Speaking as a dwarf player, I would say that a Varingyr fleet would have a liking for artillery. So, using weapons like Nova cannons more often than in an Imperial fleet would work with the Dwarfy/Squat theme. Would you agree?

[ehlijen]

I disagree. Not on the artillery point, but on the mass nova cannon. The imperial fleet already has the ability to take so many nova cannon that most players will protest against it. Just look at how many X per Y points house rules there are on the number of nova cannon.

I'd suggest things like:
High armour: 6+/6+/5+
An extra shield over the norm
Less hull points (to balance the above. Their ships are so well equipped that they are usually smaller than other races one, hence less hullpoints)
Every 45 degrees turned counts as 5cm of their movement for the turn, at least half still has to be actual movement and the it doesn't count towards how far they have to go before turning.
Weapons I'd mainly say guns and torpedoes. the big ships may have novas, but only a few in the fleet. Maybe some weapons firing in the rear?

Example:
Fortress class cruiser 200 points (guesstimate)
Turns: 45 (5cm) Speed: 20 (15 if turning) Shields: 3 Hits: 6 Armour: 6+/5+ rear Turrets: 2
Prow torpedoes: 6
Left guns: 8 30cm L/F
Right guns: 8 30cm R/L
Rear guns 4 30 L/R/Rear
Dorsal lance: 2 60cm F

[absentmindedfish]

OK, point taken on the artillery.

I'm not sure about taking hull points off though, it doesn't work with the fluff, a Squat will build things to last. They'll be hard as nails. I'm not sure how esle you could balance it out, but that might not fit...

[ehlijen]

They build things to last, yes. That's why they have more shields and better armour values. Hullpoints are more a measure of sheer bulk. They wouldn't build things big for bigness sake, so they don't. They just don't have the resources to waste like the Imperium does, so they build smaller, but stronger ships. Ie more resilient ones, but ones that don't have as much spare metal incorporated into them.

high armour (vs guns and torps) and lot's of shields (against lances) are so resilient that it might already be broken. The only things they are not more resilient to under this would be bombers.

Anyway, just suggestions. The sample cruise is most likely undercosted.

[Easy E]

I'm on board with the high armor values and shields. This ties in with the resillience theme. The lower Hull points idea is interesting. You thinking makes a lot of sense to me ehlijen.

Any idea about movement speeds. I'm guessing they are slower than their Imperial counter-parts. I'm also on board with the rear firing weapons as well. If thye are slower than everyone else, they will need to use firepower to offset this disadvantage.

I actually think Varingyr fleet technology might be less advanced/well developed then that of the Imperials. Therefore, I wouldn't give them lances at all. Just Torpedoes and weapon batteries.

I'm thinking that a Varingyr fleet would be very modular in nature. A cruiser would be able to swap weapon payloads out very easily as the weapon battery payloads could be swapped out for a launch bay or torpedoe tubes. Due to this module nature, they would have a rather limited selection of basic vessel classes. Maybe 1 ship per size type, but the modular nature would allow for a lot of customization.

[ArtificerArmour]

I'd imagine they'd be hard to board, but would shy from boarding themselves. ANd yes, heavy artillery would be quite a good one. But not a lot of it.

Perhaps an impoved nova cannon and use of bombardment cannons and lances...but a low number of them and a low number of regular weapons battery and ordnance.

[ehlijen]

Limiting lances would be fair I guess, but we need to be careful not to make them a pushover for marines and necrons. They'd need something to tackle 6+ armour more reliably than guns. Some sort of armour piercing guns or optional ammo? One bad shift (due to the reduced fragmentation radius) but +1 to hit?

Maybe take the module further: the size of the ship depends on the number of modules.
Modules are: guns, bays, tubes and engines
3 modules: escort
4-6 modules: cruiser
7-8 modules: grand cruiser
9-10 modules: BB

[Easy E]

I don't see them using Grand Cruisers myself.

Instead of Lances, perhaps they could have better targetting systems, allowing a "special" weapons battery to have a similar effect of always hitting on a 5+. Maybe an "Iron Lance" targetting array. Like a lance, but not a lance. Semantics, I know.

Also, after the Collapse many Varingyr had to flee on refugee fleets. Many of them, never returned to a planet bound life, due to the difficulty of finding habitable worlds in the Core post collapse. How can we recognize these lightly armed, yet large ships in BFG and should they be a part of the fleet list?

[sabreu]

I could easily see Varynger fleets interacting with the gravitic effects of planets and such features differently than the other races, if that makes sense. Maybe getting a bonus? I'm relatively new to BfG so I'm probably not the most helpful but I can say I've been following the Varynger threads for awhile and I think it's ace work E!

[Hellebore]

How about bombardment cannons in place of lances? Those always struck me as particularly artilleryish.

Hellebore

[ehlijen]

Suggestion:

general rules:

My home is my castle: When defending against boarding actions, Varingyr ships never count as crippled and may reroll their dice.

Expert ordnance handling: The fleet has one free reroll that may only be used on reload special orders.

Module based: There are no specific ship classes. All ships are comprised of several modules. The number of modules determines the size class and the following fleet compostion rules apply:
escort: up to 3 modules
cruiser: up to 6 modules
Battleship: up to 10 modules (requires the presence of three cruiser sized ships. No CTNH)
The armour value of all ships is: 6+ front/6+ sides/5+ rear

Modules:
Enignes: The first grants a base speed of 30cm. This is reduced by 5cm for every non engine module added to the ship. Grants 1 Hull point and 1 shield point.

Defense module: Grants 1 hull point, 2 shield point and 2 Turrets

Torpedo module: Must be the Prow module, grants a torpedo salvo with a strenght of the total number of non engine modules. Grants 1 Hull point.

Gun Battery module: Grants either: S3 45cm guns or S4 30cm guns. Grants 1 Hull point.

Bombardment cannon module: Grants s3 30cm BC battery and 1 hull point.

Launch bay module: Grants two launchbays (25cm fighters and 20cm bombers) and 1 hullpoint and 1 turret.

Nova cannon module (BB size class only): Grants 1 nova cannon and no hull point, must be the prow module.

Habitat module: Contains large living spaces but not much else. Grants 2 hull points and 1 shield point. Lowers the side armour to 5+

Composition rules: The modules are arranged in a row. 1 engine module is required and must be the stern module, all further engine modules are arranged as far back as possible. One non engine module is required to be the prow module. The module just behind the prow module is designated the Forward core module, unless it is an engine module. The module directly in front of the foremost enigne module is the rear core module, unless it is the prow or forward core. All other modules are core modules.

Fire arcs:

Prow: front only
Forward core: two batteries of the stated strenght, and L/F and one R/F
Core: two batteries of the stated strenght, one on each side (ie L and R)
Rear core: as core, but half (rounded down) of each battery may also fire to the rear

Turns: basic turn rate is 45 degrees. this may be increased to 90 degrees through purchasing extra engine (beyond the minimum of 1) sections based on the size class:
escort: 1
cruiser: 3
BB: 5

I haven't thought much about points yet, and internal balance might be off too. Feel free to rip into it.

[WallyTWest]

Varingyr ships are huge heavily shielded defensive fortresses able to maneuver and launch devastating long range attacks against Ork and Imperial Aggressors. Imagine how these ships would play in a fleet on the table. Advancing into the firepower of the lances, and then trying to out maneuver shielding.

Very simple, but a very different ship.

0-3 Agis Mininers/Cruiser (300pts ish?)
Capitol Ship
4+ Armour or 6+ Armour
6 Hits
6 Shields
4 Turrets
90 Turn or 0 Turn
20cm Move or 10cm Move

(Plasma Based Lances are used to mine and break apart debris)
Prow Lance Array (Str 6, 60cm)
Prow Pulsar Lance Array (Str 2, 30cm)
Prow Torpedoes (Str 4)

(Drones, may only launch “fighters“)
Starboard Launch Bay (D6)
Port Launch Bay (D6)

Idea, trade Pulsar Lance for 360 weapons battery for +x points. (Anti Eldar)

“Shields At Full!”; A Varingyr ship must choose between maneuverability and shielding. A Varingyr ship may increase its defenses at the expense of speed. This may be done any turn in addition to “Brace for Impact” as a “free action”.
Gain (6+ Shielding)
Loose (May Not Turn and 10 cm move.)

[Easy E]

I'm glad some people with more expertise on the system have jumped in. Some great suggestions.

What about technology that the Varingyr can use to off set the effects of an other fleets mobility?

One way is to simply surround yourself with guns, that way no one can get around you.

Another way is to somehow deny space, such as drones/mines/ordinance.

Perhaps, their larger ships could have Gravity Well generators?

[WallyTWest]

My Two Cents

I would say keep it simple and vote an alternate model range from bergade/GZG to represent the Vaingyr fleet.

As for super secret specical vodo technologies, avoid them at all costs. They spoil lists. Concentrate on mabie 1 super ability with a trade off and focus on developing cruisers that have intresting and definate weaknesses with the trade off of definate strengths.

I like the idea of long rage lance battries combined with neigh inpenetrable shields.

And trading defence for manuverability. (The Varingyr are not a superrace, but they rock when it comes to riping some space orks a new one!)

[ArtificerArmour]

Maybe they could have leech torpedoes, like the dark eldar. But instead call them Sandbaggers or something and can be shot down normally by turrets.

To be honest, don't gear them towards ork killing. Orks are pretty poor anyway and Eldar rip them a new one, don't make them any worse

I say give them 20cm speed, heavy artillery like bombardment cannons instead of lances, low weapons batteries but good range (45cm standard) with perhaps one cruiser with a really high WB, low range cruiser like the dominator, normal fighters and bombers, armour 6+, cruisers, heavy cruisers, grand cruisers and battleships (no light cruisers) and escorts with bombardment cannon. Or maybe something like the forgeship from the BT rules.

Anyone else think this?

[Easy E]

Keep it simple, always a good maxim.

I like the slow speed and the bombardment cannons. I totally agree with this.

Are we agreed that high shields and armor 6+ is good and 360 degree ring of weapons is also good?

I think we should limit the fighter craft to interceptor drones (they literally fly into the other ordinance and are destroyed) and boarding craft (Modified asteroid mining rigs used to board enemy ships that are crippled).

[Hellebore]

How about some Voidbore assault tunnellers? Basically a giant termite tunneller fired as a torpedo and disgording troops right into the heart of the ship. Because they are directional tunnellers, they could manoeuvre to the most sensitive places of the ship (reflected by giving them a positive modifier to the hit and run boarding action).

Some escorts with short ranged high strength lances could be cool - modified asteroid miners using powerful melta/plasma cutting beams.

Hellebore

[Easy E]

The Voidbore makes me think of the anti-ship weapon in the James Bond movie- Tommorrow Never Dies. A big directional miner. Perhaps it could also be slower/limited range like the Leech Torpedoe the DE have? Just to balance it out.

Also, we will need to come up with some names for ship classes.
I was thinking Legacy, Epic, and Sagas?
Of course we could also use Norse mythologies such as Fafnir, Aegis, Odin, etc.
We could also use stylized weapon names such as Iron Spear, Steel Blade, etc.

I am thinking only one name per class of Battleship, Cruiser, Escort with the modular load outs similar to the DE fleet. With the modular load oats you could really create 9 to 12 different ships.

[Hellebore]

For names, you could have a 'Hull' class, and then a secondary name based on its armament or some such.

IE

Resolute
Dauntless
Relentless
Steadfast
Adamant
Remorseless
Bulwark
Redoubt

With extra titles like:

Destroyer
Hunter

etc

Giving you ships like "Relentless Hunter" class heavy cruiser

Something interesting to think about is having no Escorts - every Varyngr ship could be a cruiser of some sort (light cruisers with 4 hit points, to heavy cruisers with 8, and Battleships with 10 etc).

I'm not sure that I like the idea of low hit points - I envisage varyngr ships as giant hunks of adamantium, solid and unyielding. A 6 hp cruiser doesn't really reflect that in my opinion.

I would rather see something like:

10-15 cm movement
6+ armour all round (the smaller ships being 6+ front/side 5+ rear)
4 hp Heavy Destroyer
6 hp Light Cruiser
8 hp Cruiser / Battlecruiser
10 hp Grand Cruiser
12 hp Battleship
14 hp Dreadnought


Slow and ponderous, but with long ranged bombardment cannons, and Heavy Destroyers carrying short ranged lances.

Most of the armaments to the front, smaller broadsides, and some rear weaponry.


That's just my opinion, but I don't like the idea of the average Varyngr cruiser having fewer hitpoints than an imperial one - they are using the same STC and have a better grasp on the technology.

Hellebore