"What You See is What You Get" question - Imperial Guard

[Dungeon Maestro]

In my Imperial Guard army, I use the plastic Cadian Shock Troops for my standard Guard infantry, but I want to use Catachan Jungle Fighters to represent my Hardened Veterans. In the Codex, it says under the Jungle Fighters doctrine that models with Jungle Fighters replace their armor with flak vests, reducing their save to +6. Does this mean that even if I don't take the Jungle Fighters doctrine, my Veterans will have a +6 save because of the flak vests the models have? This is in reference to WYSIWYG (see title), a general rule of "If the model has/doesn't have it, you can/can't use it." For example, some would say that if a model doesn't have grenades on it, it can't have grenades on the army list.

[Grimtuff]

right, this works one way but not the other

all equipment you buy for a model must be represented on them

*but*

all euipment on a model does not have to be bought, say there is a SM commander with some grenades on his belt, he does not have to buy frag grenades

so with the catachans you dont ahve to buy the jungle fighter upgrade if you dont want to, armour saves come from maore than just what a model is wearing, it can come from preturnatural skills like dodging etc.

on the subject of grenades, they are one of the few things that bypasses WYSIWYG, as some models can be covered in a whole manner of pouches or big coats, who's to know what is stored in them?

[Anvils Hammer]

catachan models should probably have 6+ saves, but you dont have to. likewise, if you want to give carapace armour to your cadians, thats fine. the key word is consisitancy, so long as you are consistant eg every catachan model has 5+, ever mordian model has 4+, then its fine.

with WYSIWYG, my opinion is tha unless its grenades, it ALWAYS applys. i would be VERY annoyed if for example your force commander with a combi melta turned out to not have one half way throught the battle. so i would say that weapons shown on the model must be paid for.

[mattjgilbert]

with WYSIWYG, my opinion is tha unless its grenades, it ALWAYS applys. i would be VERY annoyed if for example your force commander with a combi melta turned out to not have one half way throught the battle. so i would say that weapons shown on the model must be paid for.

Agreed. I think playing this to the absolute letter is unfair. I'm not about to study every model in my opponents army to check if they have grenades or not or if a particular model has had 4 hours of green-stuff sculpting done to it to simulate a master-crafted weapon. In fact, other than weapons and other obvious large equipment, it is not practical to play WYSIWYG rigidly or your collection would have to be several hundreds of models large for each army you had just to cover all the options. So long as your opponent knows what equipment your guys have up front and you allow access to your list at any time, there shouldn't be an issue.

Correct weapons though and the right models themselves (i.e. no proxying) are a must I think. And of course, if you or your opponent has spent time and effort actually doing all the conversions and stuff then that’s real cool and you should congratulate him/her/yourself on all the good work

[Cypher]

Jungle Fighters is a skill representing troops who are used to jungle environment. It just so happens that there is a particular line of models that represent "jungle fighters" (yeah I know, Im not helping ).

Think of it this way: give Catachans an urban camo scheme, are they still Jungle Fighters?

[Darius Rhiannon]

As Cypher pointed out, you can have Catachans (models) who are not jungle fighters...

Of course if you fight Space Marines, Necrons or anybody else with AP5 weapons, your troops will never make a save anyway...

Also remember that there is no longer a WYSIWYG rule in the rulebook. Hence Cadians can have Carpace as can Mordians, Tallarns or Pretorians.WYSIWYG is only mentioned in the Codex with regards to weapons, wargear and vehicle upgrades...

[Kzer-Za]

My advice is to be consistent in your modelling and show of things...
For instance... A leader with a power weapon should IMO be shown off as painted differently (his weapon that is) than one with a normal chainsword, since it's fluffy (the whole power-field thing) and the threat the model represents is considerably spiked...

Thus no enemy can claim that they didn't know beforehand...
That said many people like to hide their suprises by painting them down, and as long as it is the correct bit, who's to argue...

This is a matter of taste...
My point here is this though: No enemy should ever, at least upon close inspection, be in doubt about a models relative capabilities... Thus things like frag grenades give or take aren't very important to me, but a sergeant tottling with melta-bombs can be a huge risk, and thus SHOULD be modelled...

The golden rule is that no enemy should ever feel confused about what your models represent...

I have personally played against players which start off a game like this: "That squads meltagunner is really a plasmagunner, and this guy without arms really has a powerweapon I just haven't been able to glue it on yet, etc. etc. for a few minutes"

A simple piece of information like: "All my models have 5+ armour despite some being catachan" however people should be able to remember...

No one manages to remember a great deal of such details in the "heat of battle"... Thus make your models wysiwyg and save them the time of wondering, so long as they have eyes!!

Kzer-Za

[mostholycerebus]

WYSIWYG no longer exists in the rulebook. It only applies to vehicles and models that draw from the armoury. Even then, only when the individual codex specifies.

Play your Catachans as whatever you like.

[Cypher]

But to be fair, if my opponent claimed a heavy bolter was a lascannon, I wouldnt be too impressed. WYSIWYG should at least be consistent with stuff like weapons and equipment as far as GW has declared.

[mostholycerebus]

Yeah, personally I think everyone should strive to follow Kzer-Za's golden rule. Once it becomes confusing, you've crossed the line. Clear, overarching things like "everyone has an X+ save" aren't all that difficult. I like weapons to be clear at a glance, so I even update my RT models to current weaponry, again to avoid confusion.

[Dungeon Maestro]

Thanks a lot. This really was just about the fact that the Catachan models (Hardened Veterans) have flak vests, rather than the rest of my infantry (Cadian models), but a lot of good information came out anyway.

[Getz]

If you're really bothered, try sculpting some Cadian-esque shoulderpads onto the catachans. Voila flak armour, and a very simple conversion which will hide the ugly seams you always seem to get where Catachan Arms join onto the body.

[scrubout]

I have a related question on WYSIWYG, also for Guard. First; can guard officers take combi-weapons, and where could I find this information? And, secondly, what would you think of someone using a combi-plasma gun with their guard commander as a bolter instead of a combi-weapon (totally disregarding the plasma gun effect, and if Guard cannot take combi's)? Does this cross the line? Thanks.

-peace out
scrubout

[gLOBS]

Heh you could call the "broken" combi-weapon his "trademark item" and use it as a bolter I suppose.

[worldshatterer]

Guard can't have combi-weapons, they used to be able to in second ed which is where the combi-weapon models come from .

If its a weapon that can't possibly be bought in the armoury, and the model is clearly an officer, how could anyone have a problem with its gun being used as just a bolter?

[Nurglitch_PS]

Consider the modern bullet-proof vests. On the outside they are just kevlar flak vests that can stop a bullet fired from a handgun. If you put the steel plates inside, you make it heavier but you upgrade to some substantial protection from assault rifles' fire. But the vest still looks the same. It is hard to judge by looking whether or no the trooper has steel plates in his vest. And than two identically looking pieces of armour can be made from different materials thus providing different levels of protection. If I were your opponent, I'd accept any legal saving throw on your Cadians - be it 4+. 5+ or 6+ as long the units with non-standard Sv were somehow distinguishable.

[Hymirl]

Of course you could just have a bolter and a plasma pistol and model it as a combi-plasma gun. The actual difference in effect is fairly minimal.

[sulla]

This is a matter of taste...
My point here is this though: No enemy should ever, at least upon close inspection, be in doubt about a models relative capabilities... Thus things like frag grenades give or take aren't very important to me, but a sergeant tottling with melta-bombs can be a huge risk, and thus SHOULD be modelled...

Kzer-Za

Damn! Where am I going to get 10 melta bombs for my deathwatch kill-team?

[Aquila]

I WOULD model meltabombs, except those things are frickin huge and it's almost impossible to stick one to a marine and especially a guardsman without it looking completely ridiculous.

[mostholycerebus]

Of course you could just have a bolter and a plasma pistol and model it as a combi-plasma gun. The actual difference in effect is fairly minimal.

Cool idea.

I WOULD model meltabombs, except those things are frickin huge and it's almost impossible to stick one to a marine and especially a guardsman without it looking completely ridiculous.

I did a nice vet sgt model with Meltabombs. He has a gun in one hand, and the other hand is holding the bombs. For the bombs I used a flamer backpack with the pipes removed, and the back opening filled in with GS. A little loop of wire for a handle and it looks great.