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Thread: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    First of all - congrats to Vettel - he certainly deserved the title after that late run of success.

    Secondly, how lucky was Vettel not for it to be all over on the first lap? How his car wasn't wiped out while it was rolling backwards down the hill I'll never know. Clearly the F1 gods are smiling on him as Red Bull weren't exactly hot on the strategy yesterday but it was one of those days where you really had to just keep it on the black stuff in order to get points and Alonso really had to win to have any chance at all.

    Interestingly, rather than affirming his status, Vettel's third championship has actually seeded some considerable doubt in my mind about his ability. He is clearly a very fast, talented driver - but let's be honest, until the Red Bull suddenly came good in the late races he was nowhere very much in the championship and he made lots of mistakes under pressure but usually managed to get away with them through blind luck. Bluntly he has Alonso's misfortune to thank as much as his own skill for this championship as if Alonso had finished either of the races he was put out of on the first lap (much less both of them) we would have the opposite result. In short, can he win without the best car? Whilst the Red Bull was not as dominant in 2010 as it was in 2011 it was still the fastest thing on the circuit that year.
    Last edited by Getz; 27-11-2012 at 08:56.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Getz View Post
    Bluntly he has Alonso's misfortune to thank as much as his own skill for this championship
    And the lack of reliability/unlucky incidents which befell Lewis.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    And the lack of reliability/unlucky incidents which befell Lewis.
    That too - if Lewis hadn't broken down at Singapore and Abu Dhabi it would have been a very different end to the season...
    Last edited by Getz; 27-11-2012 at 13:46.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Vettel - read&seen a lot of rubbish about him being an all time great etc For me he needs to prove that by winning in a car that isn't dominant or against a top level teammate. He is great in the lead but the performances in the last races raised lots of doubts. In Brazil he seemed to freeze at the start&restart and put himself in danger while in Abu Dhabi he made several big errors which he escaped from.

    Reliability - I don't see what can be done about this without open engine&gearbox development which will increase costs

    Tracks - personally I think the mix is right, you have the old (spa, monza, Montreal, monaco,suzuka,interlagos) which have close barriers etc and really are only accepted as they are so established, the updated ( Silverstone, hockenheim) and the modern. In my opinion the problem circuits tend to be either late 80s and early 90s circuits (magny-cours, a1-ring, Barcelona, hungaroring) where there was too little knowledge of how to make circuits safe but also challenging&exciting or street circuits (Valencia, Singapore, Abu Dhabi). The most recent circuits (Austin, Istanbul, Malaysia, Korea, India) get the balance right between safety, challenge& racing. Would I like to see drivers punished more for mistakes? yes but not at the expense of massive crashes&fatalities, if you look at on-board shots from 10 years ago I think that shows more why there are less accidents - modrern cars have so much more grip&stability.

    DRS/kers I like it as it helps overtaking - it was probably to easy some places but others it allowed overtakes by faster cars as it helped mitigate the dirty air in the second behind

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve54 View Post
    Vettel - read&seen a lot of rubbish about him being an all time great etc For me he needs to prove that by winning in a car that isn't dominant or against a top level teammate. He is great in the lead but the performances in the last races raised lots of doubts. In Brazil he seemed to freeze at the start&restart and put himself in danger while in Abu Dhabi he made several big errors which he escaped from.
    Honestly, I feel much the same about Hamilton. Paced from an early age and entering into F1 in a quite good car. It will be interesting to see if he can live up to the hype in a mid-field car.

    Tracks - personally I think the mix is right, you have the old (spa, monza, Montreal, monaco,suzuka,interlagos) which have close barriers etc and really are only accepted as they are so established, the updated ( Silverstone, hockenheim) and the modern. In my opinion the problem circuits tend to be either late 80s and early 90s circuits (magny-cours, a1-ring, Barcelona, hungaroring) where there was too little knowledge of how to make circuits safe but also challenging&exciting or street circuits (Valencia, Singapore, Abu Dhabi). The most recent circuits (Austin, Istanbul, Malaysia, Korea, India) get the balance right between safety, challenge& racing. Would I like to see drivers punished more for mistakes? yes but not at the expense of massive crashes&fatalities, if you look at on-board shots from 10 years ago I think that shows more why there are less accidents - modrern cars have so much more grip&stability.
    An easy fix would be to fill in most of the gravel-pits again. There are many places where they could easily stop a F1 car before it hit the barrier so the impact on safety should be minimal. It will, however, punish the drivers for going off-track.

    DRS/kers I like it as it helps overtaking - it was probably to easy some places but others it allowed overtakes by faster cars as it helped mitigate the dirty air in the second behind
    To me, the problem is that it makes overtaking too easy.

    I want to see two equal drivers battling it out with skill, wits, and reaction time - not simply pushing buttons. Seeing two cars dueling through corner after corner is a thrill. Seeing one car suddenly gain 20+ km/h and just drive right past another is, in my honest opinion, boring.


    And speaking of boring...

    This was actually one of the more interesting races of the season. But only because of the rain and the two contenders seemingly being hell-bend on handicaping themselves as much as possibly though bad driving and crashes.

    I'm actually feeling somewhat sad that we have gotten to a point where, on most tracks, we need rain and a safetycar or two to enliven the race. If we don't get that, the the race quickly devolves into a boring procession of cars simply going 'round and 'round until the checked flag is raised. "Meeeeh!", I say...

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by f2k View Post
    An easy fix would be to fill in most of the gravel-pits again. There are many places where they could easily stop a F1 car before it hit the barrier so the impact on safety should be minimal. It will, however, punish the drivers for going off-track.
    I'm in agreement that this is what the FIA should do. There were no fatalities in the 1990s post Imola 1994, and they didn't take all the gravel traps out following that race. What they did do was make the cars a lot safer over time, with higher cockpit sides, more stringent crash tests, and modify some corners which were dangerous because of a lack of run off.

    They've now swung too far the other way though. All this tarmac run off just makes driving a Formula 1 car too easy now. I remember when half the field used to retire from most wet races, because if you went off the track too often your car just got stuck in the gravel, but it never happens now. They just have a brief off, and recover. Formula 1 should not be that easy. It's supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing.

    To me, the problem is that it makes overtaking too easy.

    I want to see two equal drivers battling it out with skill, wits, and reaction time - not simply pushing buttons. Seeing two cars dueling through corner after corner is a thrill. Seeing one car suddenly gain 20+ km/h and just drive right past another is, in my honest opinion, boring.
    This is my problem too. For me it's not that they shouldn't have DRS at all, because at some tracks it does solve the overtaking problem, but there a number of tracks, where it is possible to pass, where they don't need it, so it should only be allowed at tracks with very poor overtaking records. Even then, there's an argument for saying that if Pirelli keep producing tyres which wear out that this alone is enough to generate overtaking without the need for DRS.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    The difference is pretty obvious

    pre-f1 both raced for top teams (ASM, Carlin, mucke, ART,Manor) but Vettel never won a title or was a consistent winner (his best season he was beaten to the euro F3 title by his teammate di resta). Hamilton won every championship he contested.

    F1 Vettel has beaten Liuzzi, Bourdais and Webber, Hamilton has beaten Alonso, Kovalainen and Button. Not really any comparison really.

    Fair enough you dislike Hamilton but Vettel had just the same chances and development in top lower formula teams and did far, far less. In F1 to suggest Hamilton has never been up against a top teammate (and beaten them) is ridiculous.

    Vettel may be at the Hamilton/Alonso level but he needs to win in a car that isn't dominant or beat a bona-fide top level teammate to prove it

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irisado View Post
    This is my problem too. For me it's not that they shouldn't have DRS at all, because at some tracks it does solve the overtaking problem, but there a number of tracks, where it is possible to pass, where they don't need it, so it should only be allowed at tracks with very poor overtaking records. Even then, there's an argument for saying that if Pirelli keep producing tyres which wear out that this alone is enough to generate overtaking without the need for DRS.
    I think the biggest issue with DRS is that you have very set activation zones where it can be used.
    They could probably get away with allowing DRS to be used by everyone but the guy in first all the time provided they are more than 1 second away from the car ahead of them.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    It looks as though Ferrari may be considering contesting the result of Brazilian Grand Prix, details here.

    It looks very clear to me, he did pass under yellow flags.
    Last edited by Wintermute; 29-11-2012 at 07:31.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Now that it interesting; however, if there was a green flag waving, then the result will not change. It's hard to tell because of the graphic obscuring the left hand side of the track. I'll take a better look later on a decent computer.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    If there isn't a green flag it raises serious questions about race control+the stewards IMO, they should have been able to see via their data screens that Vettel had passed in the yellow flag zone.

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Apparently there was a green flag on the left hand side of the track and FIA has said Vettel is in the clear
    Quote Originally Posted by philbrad
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    Apparently there was a green flag on the left hand side of the track and FIA has said Vettel is in the clear
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    Apparently there was a green flag on the left hand side of the track and FIA has said Vettel is in the clear
    That doesn't surprise me. I knew it was a long shot, but at least it has been shown to be beyond doubt, unlike the Schumacher/Hill title decider from 1994.
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Is it worth bumping this thread, or are there no other F1 fans out there?

    As a Manor fan it's been a good few weeks, but Mercedes are probably going to win every title until the engine regs change; I just can't see anyone getting near them. Well done for the engineering excellence, but can we please just give them the trophies after Australia and save the expense of the rest of the season?
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    Quote Originally Posted by jbeil View Post
    Is it worth bumping this thread, or are there no other F1 fans out there?

    As a Manor fan it's been a good few weeks, but Mercedes are probably going to win every title until the engine regs change; I just can't see anyone getting near them. Well done for the engineering excellence, but can we please just give them the trophies after Australia and save the expense of the rest of the season?
    Honestly not sure how many fans are left.

    To me, DRS, exesive legislation, handing out penalties like candy, and the new generation of "safe" tracks have all but killed the sport. I'll still have it on in the background if I remember it and if there isn't anything more interesting to do, but... Well... I honestly can't remember a single race from this season, except for an general sense of dullness and boredom.

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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    I still watch it religiously including the Practice sessions on Saturday and Qualy.

    And I'm watching the buildup know to the British Grand Prix on tv right now
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    Re: Formula One Debauchery and Craziness (and love of sport)

    We said "Ciao Jules" exactly one day ago today.

    And on today of all days, we've seen a huge crash on the grid in Formula 4, and a crane on track under yellow flags in Formula 3.5 - nice to see the FIA is as quick to learn as ever!

    In cheerier news, is it true that Sauber have been bought now?

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