White Dwarf Feedback Over Time

[paddyalexander]

Here is a teaser sample of No Quarter Magazine 42. There is more content in this teaser than 4 or 5 White Dwarves I've looked trough combined. It also shows how a Magazine (all be it one realeased every two months) can be full of interesting content for what is essentialy a single games system (Warmachine & Hordes) and a role playing system based in the same world (Iron Kingdoms RPG).

http://files.privateerpress.com/nq/nqplus/NQ42.pdf

I particularly like the detailed explanation each participant gave for their army choices plus the overview of the terrain and scenario. I can remember when White Dwarf was this good, but that would envolve creating content and not including 15 odd photos of the same model you are trying to sell.

[Scaryscarymushroom]

Here is a teaser sample of No Quarter Magazine 42. There is more content in this teaser than 4 or 5 White Dwarves I've looked trough combined. It also shows how a Magazine (all be it one realeased every two months) can be full of interesting content for what is essentialy a single games system (Warmachine & Hordes) and a role playing system based in the same world (Iron Kingdoms RPG).

http://files.privateerpress.com/nq/nqplus/NQ42.pdf

I particularly like the detailed explanation each participant gave for their army choices plus the overview of the terrain and scenario. I can remember when White Dwarf was this good, but that would envolve creating content and not including 15 odd photos of the same model you are trying to sell.

WOW! If this is what PP has to offer against GW...? It certainly makes Warmachine look more interesting. This is the kind of material that I think would win over a lot of people that say "There's just no replacement for 40k." The IP appears to be quite well developed, and the art looks great!

[lbecks]

No Quarter is a very good magazine. Content-wise it beats White Dwarf. The only things WD has on it is paper quality and photo quality.

[Mirbeau]

I think White Dwarf has improved significantly under Kenrick.

I don't want to post the same thing in two seperate threads but in short-it seems to attempt to meet demands - new rules content,fluff, expansions, painting guides, campaign ideas etc. are featured much more regularly than at any point under the previous editor. That said, much of that content has been shallow, and there have been some real duff issues under his tenure. Still, I think they're going in the right direction.

[SunTzu]

It took twenty four pages of the latest issue (nearly a quarter of the way through) to reach something that wasn't simply a double page photo. There were then a whole bunch more double page photos later in the magazine.

The rules, which did go missing for a while, and it's indeed nice to see them back, covered a grand total, of, what, six pages?

Our opinions differ on whether that's a valiant attempt to offer what people are asking for, or a deliberate policy of ticking the boxes in an intentionally minimal way so we'll all shut the hell up complaining and go back to cooing over double page photos and giving them our money. It's like asking a teenager to tidy his room, so he kicks some of the stuff that's on the floor under the bed and says "SEE? I DID IT, OH MY GOD I HATE YOU LEAVE ME ALONE". You could, generously, define it as doing as requested - but not in any meaningful way.

True, the absolute nadir of White Dwarf was the Dreadfleet issue late last year - the worst ever IMO. The last two or three months haven't been quite as bad as that - but it was only that six (or so) pages of rules that saved them from being every bit as bad. I suppose an optimist could call that "moving in the right direction"... I guess that means I'm not an optimist.

[Mirbeau]

It took twenty four pages of the latest issue (nearly a quarter of the way through) to reach something that wasn't simply a double page photo. There were then a whole bunch more double page photos later in the magazine.

The rules, which did go missing for a while, and it's indeed nice to see them back, covered a grand total, of, what, six pages?

Our opinions differ on whether that's a valiant attempt to offer what people are asking for, or a deliberate policy of ticking the boxes in an intentionally minimal way so we'll all shut the hell up complaining and go back to cooing over double page photos and giving them our money. It's like asking a teenager to tidy his room, so he kicks some of the stuff that's on the floor under the bed and says "SEE? I DID IT, OH MY GOD I HATE YOU LEAVE ME ALONE". You could, generously, define it as doing as requested - but not in any meaningful way.

True, the absolute nadir of White Dwarf was the Dreadfleet issue late last year - the worst ever IMO. The last two or three months haven't been quite as bad as that - but it was only that six (or so) pages of rules that saved them from being every bit as bad. I suppose an optimist could call that "moving in the right direction"... I guess that means I'm not an optimist.

I think our opinions differ less than you may think, I'm in agreement that these articles are largely 'box-ticking' exercises, made evident by their often slopshod nature, and the message given to staff to spread (see below). I just hope they can build from that, and though it may be a limited improvement, it's something... I'm fairly certain gw were (indeed are) aware of the criticism white dwarf was getting, a few managers towards the end of last year were 'encouraged' to talk up white dwarf changing direction - having far more rules content etc.

On that Dreadfleet issue, it was diabolical - but had Sisters rules and an... alright painting guide, if nowt else. I still think that the Giant issue was worse, if not by much.

I do feel GW's current release policy doesn't help much, when the month's new model count is a grand total of 5... it's hard to sustain intrest. Though not including about thirty pages of pictures of them would be a good start!

[The.War.Machine]

Wow! No Quarter magazine looks awesome! And I personally think that White Dwarf is progressively getting worse. The 25th anniversary one was seriously lacking in terms of content, but it had a bit of content. The latest one though has nothing in it really worth reading apart from the rules for the fliers. At least I don't buy them that often.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

I have around 16-17 years of white dwarves, I know this because they recently broke my cupboard..., anyway, as much as some of you are loathe to admit it the world has changed and I doubt many youngsters nowadays would get a kick out of reading your old white dwarf. Id even go so far as to say in todays world I could not see the likes of Space Crusade/Heroquest and the early start up games having the success they once had. I really don't know why its just a feeling I have, it probably has to do with changing ways (damn you Tzeentch!!) the development of technologies and peoples differeing views. For example, a lot of trades have gone down in number significantly, fewer people take them up and more people and getting into computers showing that people are more interested generally in technology.

I myself love the old White Dwarf because of the memories attached to them and indeed the relevance of the games back then. I think todays version does indeed lack something, and I think that is heart and a bit of warmth and passion. The old WD seemed to have a fair bit and you could see the guys put a lot into their battle reports to make them epic reads, now they just feel pretty vapid and soulless. I also think the internet has had a massive impact on WD as you can see a lot before it is released (new releases,news, rumours.....) and millions (slight exagerration) of cool blogs articles and the like which previously we saw only in WD (apart from traditional wargamers, im talking about GW hobbyists, even if you cant stand the term...).

[Abaraxas]

You mean most people (peeps) these days cant read, right?

[Torga_DW]

I agree with Inquisitor Kallus. Societies change, and the target audience of white dwarf has changed. Its sad, but it happens. To repeat my post in the June review, i loved teenage mutant ninja turtles when it came out. It had violence, adult themes, death, the whole nine yards. Ask most people about it these days, and they'll say its a children's cartoon on television. The target audience changed. I think a lot of people's unhapiness with white dwarf as it is now, is that they're not accepting that its changed. Which is also sad, but happens.

[-Skink-]

But has it's target audience changed or has it just become lazy and cheap/easy to produce and still sell it for £4.50? I'd go with the latter.

[ted1138]

But has it's target audience changed or has it just become lazy and cheap/easy to produce and still sell it for £4.50? I'd go with the latter.

Me too. GW have figured a way to still make the magazine, but on the cheap. Just look at the lazy way they pad out the mag with advertising spread over more pages than is required. Or the way they do painting guides that are nothing more than a list of the colours they want you to buy(what happened to people being creative, and using their own colour schemes?). Most written content is done by the guys in the studio, who don't seem to be all that talented at article writing(oh yeah, describe the new rule book, but not actually tell us anything about the rules in it...).

Why don't they just cut WD down to about 30 pages(you could fit all the adverts and store info into that no problem), and give it away for free?

[Inquisitor Kallus]

But has it's target audience changed or has it just become lazy and cheap/easy to produce and still sell it for £4.50? I'd go with the latter.

Id go with both

[shelfunit.]

Why don't they just cut WD down to about 30 pages(you could fit all the adverts and store info into that no problem), and give it away for free?

Because it brings them in too much money - an approximate sales figure of 200,000 copies sold each month* (let's say the average price per issue is £4.50 including subscriptions due to the vastly higher cover price everywhere oputside the UK) will bring in over £10m annually. Giving it away (almost still too expensive for what it currently is) would cost them a ton of money and is unlikely to bring any more people to the GW Hobby TM than it does currently.

* the most up to date figure I could lay my hands on.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

im still not sure why they dont just do a 'beginners WD' which they could keep for a few years until something significant changes like new eds and make WD a bit more for gamers/hobbyists with interesting stuff in it. I imagine its just a lot easier to regurgitate old stuff and splash big pictures of new stuff to make up the page count. Less effort involved there.

[ted1138]

Because it brings them in too much money - an approximate sales figure of 200,000 copies sold each month* (let's say the average price per issue is £4.50 including subscriptions due to the vastly higher cover price everywhere oputside the UK) will bring in over £10m annually. Giving it away (almost still too expensive for what it currently is) would cost them a ton of money and is unlikely to bring any more people to the GW Hobby TM than it does currently.

* the most up to date figure I could lay my hands on.

You think White Dwarf makes ten million pounds in profit, per year? I don't think their sales are even half what you think they are, plus the profit on each copy sold(after printing, distribution, retailers cut, returns, wages, tax, etc) is next to nothing. In fact I doubt they make any profit on it at all...

[shelfunit.]

You think White Dwarf makes ten million pounds in profit, per year?

No, and I never said it did. I only mentioned the amount it brings in, nothing about the profit.

I don't think their sales are even half what you think they are, plus the profit on each copy sold(after printing, distribution, retailers cut, returns, wages, tax, etc) is next to nothing. In fact I doubt they make any profit on it at all...

Got it from Mark Lathams linkedin page - for some reason it appears in the text on the google search as 200,000 (it was over 60,000 in the early 90's and had the circulation figure printed inside at that time), but is no longer present in his profile. If you think GW is making no profit from WD you need to seriously rethink your view of GW - if it doesn't deliver a profit it is cut. Immediately.

[Inquisitor Kallus]

Things arent always cut if they dont make a profit. Games Day is a good example

[Torga_DW]

But has it's target audience changed or has it just become lazy and cheap/easy to produce and still sell it for £4.50? I'd go with the latter.

Its production values are quite high, there is nothing amateurish about the magazine. I see nothing cheap/easy about it. Meanwhile i'm gonna be lazy and just quote myself from a couple days ago on another thread:

The first page of a google search: games workshop's target audience

http://www.infobarrel.com/Games_Work...stomer_Service
"Although their target audience is younger teenagers...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop
Following a management buyout in December 1991, the company refocused on their most lucrative lines, namely their miniature wargame Warhammer Fantasy Battle (WFB) and Warhammer 40,000 (WH40K). The retail chain refocused on a younger, more family-oriented market.

http://wargamestuff.blogspot.com.au/...-problems.html
Games Workshop's target market is somewhat different than most other wargaming companies. The focus is on 12-16 year olds, 10-18 at the outside, who are just starting out with wargaming, do not come from a gaming background and have no knowledge of any other gaming companies.

Then theres the anecdotal evidence that shows up from time to time here from ex-gw staff members who were higher up the food chain.

[shelfunit.]

Things arent always cut if they dont make a profit. Games Day is a good example

Gamesday doesn't make a profit? Are you high?