V5.0 Eldar Tactica

[darker4308]

You know, we arn't helping people if we don't use the point costs, and if worst comes to worst, we can just say we used to free online Japanese codex. I know the forum rules don't say anything about not quoting open source rules like stuff GW gives out. I think the rule is to just to prevent agressive rule fishing which i will admit is annoying.

[Midknightwraith]

@Demonprince101 - At 1K Eldar suffer from one of two issues. Either one you don't have the right tool for the job, or two you don't have the tool in sufficient numbers to deal adequately with the threats. Your list seems to fall into the later category.

General advice for expanding this army would be to get an additional Serpent or two, and fill out your existing aspect squads. This should run you up to around 1.5K pts.

As for tactics, the obvious thing is to run everything in a wing together, with the scouts holding DZ objective in those games, and just causing general mayhem otherwise. The Seer should be with the DAs in their transport. The tough thing is going to be finding room to manuver 3 skimmers into an assault position. I recommend an inverted V with the Serpent in the rear. The DAs have the largest threat range, and are not in as vulnerable a position as your Banshees and Scorpions if they don't get the charge. This is especially true for the fleet-less Scorpions, so if there is a more forward position you would do well to place the Scorpion's Falcon there.

Against lists with no tank, or only 1 (non-AV14 tank) I'd do the advance to wreck a flank move on turn 1, and use the Scatter Lasers to pop nearby light vehicles. Against lists with multiple AV12/13 Vehicles, I'd recommend a slower advance giving the Falcons an oportunity to destroy/damage those vehicles before unloading their cargo. When moving to assault, have the Banshees and Scorpions engage together, but not necessarily all the same units. Multiple units where possible. Especially, against non-MEQs, where both these units excel. Be careful going against marines I would advise against engaging more than about 15 total at once with what you have, Shooting first before assaulting, provided it won't put you out of charge range is recommended, and don't forget to doom the largest unit that is targeted by your assault units. Don't make the mistake of Dooming your DAs target. They are not likely to need it unlike your assault units.

That is about all I can say on how I would use this army. Falcons haven't really been my thing since 5th Ed. Wave Serpents are, in my opinion, much better for a number of reasons in the Eldar List. Almost as many weapons, twice the transport space, cheaper, don't take a heavy slot. More flexible, and useful weapon selections. I just can't say enough about how good Wave Serpents are.

[Karnstein]

And don't forget that serpents are far more reliable than falcon tanks. You have the energy field, which means that railguns and lascannons aren't superior in breaking the serpents AV than say rocket launcher and you totaly screw melter special rules.

First thing I did after reading the 5ed rulebook was asking a friend of mine, if he could send me some spare warpcannons. Both falcons of mine are lying around in my rack, with their turrets ripped of. Greenstuff+cannon+falcon turret= custom build prism tank ftw!

[Eldanar]

You know, we arn't helping people if we don't use the point costs, and if worst comes to worst, we can just say we used to free online Japanese codex. I know the forum rules don't say anything about not quoting open source rules like stuff GW gives out. I think the rule is to just to prevent agressive rule fishing which i will admit is annoying.

Please note the shiney gold star next to my avatar and my rank...

The rule is primarily to prevent rules fishing, however, we have to apply it fairly broadly, as not every moderator is familiar with every game, codex or rules set. Let's just keep it to unit points totals and let's not get into specific upgrade points costs...

[Ixe]

There's no prohibition against giving points costs for your units, this is well within GW's intellectual property policy. Don't put the points cost of each model and upgrade, but other than that nobody is going to care.

However, I don't think that anyone has the right to demand points costs... If you don't want to review a list that doesn't have points listed, then don't. That's all there is to it.

[Irisado]

Are guardians a good troop to stick inside a list. I feel as if i do not have enoughf troops and need something else. But guardians only have that 12 inch shooting range when dires have 18 inches. But i cant seem to be able to keep my dires alive long enough to capture objectives end game.

As a general rule, Guardians make for a solid fire support unit if you take Scatter Lasers for their weapon platform, field two units, and use them to support other infantry.

They are useful in smaller games, since they are cheaper than Dire Avengers, and while the twelve inch range is a problem, providing you have other units around which can whittle down enemy forces, or you are using the Guardians as nothing more than long range fire support (from the heavy weapon), then it's not an insurmountable problem. That said, they are still fragile, rely on cover, and really suffer against template weapons and rapid fire weapons at half range, so you have to be careful with them. Their utility will depend to great extent on your overall army composition.

You know, we arn't helping people if we don't use the point costs, and if worst comes to worst, we can just say we used to free online Japanese codex. I know the forum rules don't say anything about not quoting open source rules like stuff GW gives out. I think the rule is to just to prevent agressive rule fishing which i will admit is annoying.

If that was in response to my earlier post, then Eldanar basically answered it, although there are also, I believe, issues of copyright with quoting individual upgrade totals out of a codex, just as there are with quoting rules out of the rulebook, and GW are very protective about their copyright. This is why it's only safe to give total unit points costs.

[Dweomer]

Hey there folks,

To save this thread from the dreaded third page, I've decided to come in today and talk about Serpent of Fury. (Okay, so I had been planning this anyways but it makes for a nice intro...)

What is the tactic? In short, it is the act of aggressively positioning a Wave Serpent to protect a medium-ranged shooting unit that deployed from it.

The name "Serpent of Fury" derives from the 4th ed Tau tactic "Fish of Fury". Tau Firewarriors normally come with a Pulse Rifle. Because this is a Rapid Fire weapon, the maximal output is in the 12" band. However, FWs are REALLY fragile, especially in Close Combat. The solution to this (and creation of the tactic) was that they can buy a Devilfish as a Transport. The Devilfish could move up to 12", would stop about 6" away from the enemy, and still be free to shoot it's weapons. The FWs inside would jump out of the hatch on the side away from the enemy and fire "under" the tank, as Skimmers did not block Line of Sight. In the enemy turn, the Skimmer would be well protected from shooting and assault due to the Skimmers Moving Fast rule. The guys behind would be protected from assault due to the bulk of the Devilfish. The unit could function independently, hit hard, was highly mobile, difficult to destroy and generally able to compensate for most drawbacks. This was such a highly effective tactic that it became the staple of most high-end competitive Tau armies. Then along came 5th edition; suddenly Tau commanders are scrambling to put taller stems on their tanks, finding the Devilfish isn't nearly as durable, lightly armoured enemies were getting a cover save and were generally left lamenting that their trick pony had been hobbled. It is still feasible for them, but is iffy for a unit operating on its own. The tactic has been reduced from a staple, to something that either requires multiple units for area saturation or as an act of desperation.

Now how does this apply to Eldar? Well, simply put, Eldar and Tau have a number of similarities. It's like we've been guiding the development of that lesser race for eons or something... Serpent of Fury existed in 4th edition play, but mostly as part of a mechanized theme or gimmick. The amount of damage it did was usually not worth the cost; there were more effective tactics for competitive play. Then along came the "new" Eldar Codex right before 5th edition. Dire Avengers suddenly became a Troops choice for everyone and their range was extended to 18". SoF still wasn't a mainline item, but it was at least something to do with your required Troops selections when you had a mechanized army. Then 5th edition dropped right after that and Troops came fully into the limelight.

Excepting a weird mission or erratta item, having surviving Troops is the only way you can get better than a tie in 2/3s of the current missions. This means that your Troops are going to be a primary target for any opponent focused on not losing. To protect them, your Troops either need to be plentiful (Orks, IG or Guardian horde), tough as nails (Wraithguard or Plague Marines), and/or otherwise protected (in/behind cover, Reserves Denial or in a tank). There's also the Multiple Small Unit option, but that will cause you problems in Annihilation missions and is not recommended for a general play list. For Eldar, hordes are unwieldy, rather static, suffer in CC, and anti-horde is becoming common thanks to the Orks. A Wraithguard core is solid but also slow, expensive, and the type of unit that a list gets built around. Relying on cover to protect your guys can also be an iffy prospect, especially since claiming objectives often means moving out of your original deployment position. Of course, you can always hide some guys behind a building or inside a tank, but this also means they're not doing anything for you the course of the game.

Why a Wave Serpent? Why not a Falcon? Well, first, SMF is the same for each and only matters if you move over 12". The tank can't shoot and units can't embark or disembark. The benefit is exactly the same as if the tank were in cover... so why not just keep it in cover? Second, a Wave Serpent can carry twice as many models. Third, the Serpent Energy Field is unique to that tank. It works no matter what speed you move. While the Falcon does have the protection of a Holofield, the Serpent Energy Field actually protects almost as well and even slightly better against melta weapons. As long as your Wave Serpent moves in the 6-12" bracket, it can still shoot, is resistant to ranged and CC attacks, and guys on board can still get in and out.

Why Dire Avengers? The trick here is the 18" range. Thanks to that they can get out to the side of the tank and fire cleanly into their chosen target. There's not any issues with weird LOS from their heads and trying to shoot under the tank. You don't have to worry about modifying your tank to be up higher either. Actually, a short stem is preferable because the tank will better Screen or even completely block enemy LOS to the DAs. 12" range units such as Fire Dragons, Guardians, Wraithguard and Warlock Councils CAN be used in this manner. However, you have to be much more certain about destroying your target in order to escape retribution. These units also tend to pack flamer template weapons, so getting as close as possible is usually more important. The examples I give are mostly focussed towards maximizing the effect of DA squads.

Now a few things to note with SoF tactics:
1. It CAN be done by a solo unit. However, a full unit of DAs and a 2xASC Exarch Bladestorming average out to only 3.7 MEQ kills. Against anything tougher than Tau or IG, I REALLY suggest target saturation in the form of two or more units moving in tandem. This has an added benefit of allowing defensive formations of multiple tanks.
2. Doom is a huge benefit to this tactic, especially against T4+ opponents. 2 units and a Doom have a rather good chance of dropping even large terminator squads, Monstrous Creatures and other nasties.
3. A Serpent carrying a close-combat unit can nicely finish out a formation like this, placing them in good position to defend the DAs or carry the assault to the enemy. This role can also be performed by a Serpent toting close range units that would not have been able to get into range.
4. Beware enemies with lots of templates, especially Large Blasts such as Whirlwinds. I suggest neutralizing or blocking LOS to these before you get out of your tanks. Deep Striking flamers are also annoying.
5. The distance game only works against enemies that only move and Assault 12". Be careful of jumping out too close to an enemy with Fleet or Waagh!.
6. If you're confident in your tactics/positioning, hold off on Bladestorming if you can get a round of normal fire in.
7. If the squad's been chewed up and is down below half, mount them back up in their tank and scoot for safety. You're probably into turn 4 or so at this point anyways and those guys are more important for grabbing objectives.

The tactics for a single unit are pretty easy to grasp. Multiple-unit tactics can be a little more tricky, so I've provided some pictures for you. In the examples below, the Iyanden (Yellow) Wave Serpents are carrying the DAs. The Saim-Hann (Red) is moving Fast and likely carrying Fire Dragons or Banshees. The first picture is starting locations and the second after moving and deploying. Hrm, looks like this forum doesn't like embedded JPGs, ah well. Also looks like the movement lines in the second image didn't line up right in the capture... I don't know if I care enough to fix that.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3373/...863df711cf.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3370/...feb37beb5d.jpg

Example 1: Isolation of a target and multiple overlapping Screens.. The squad on the left is the target in this movement. Both squads and their Serpents have decent to clear lines of fire into the target. Screening of the target doesn't matter as they'd get a 3+ save anyways. Every enemy except the target has their LOS Screened or even blocked by intervening terrain and tanks. Only the Fire Dragon tank is not nicely Screened and it is protected thanks to SMF. This is true not only of the guys immediately nearby, but the entire rest of the table.

Example 2: Capstoning. Here the two squads deploy in between the two tanks with the third forming a protective capstone. The target unit would be the guys just inside the woods. Note that the front squad is over 50% protected from the Predator by their tank and the rest of the enemy by the red tank. This is the best option for attacking a central point and/or an opponent that has turtled.

Example 3: Push back. This is an example of combining the SoF with cover to create and position that is strong against assaults. Likely the front squad of Marines is the target. However, the Daemon Prince or Raptors could just as easilly be targetted across the nose of the Red Serpent. This is your best bet for drawing off or countering enemy assaulters with an 18" range. Because the enemy must stay 1" away from your models until assaulting and the proximity of the woods, in order to assault the DAs the enemy is forced to charge through 4.5" of difficult terrain. This does have the downside of opening up them up to ranged fire from the inside of the board; it would work more efficiently reversed towards the board edge but is fine in a pinch.

Hope that this has been informative. Please feel free to give me any feedback or questions. Also, if there's a particular stratagem or tactic you'd like to see illustrated like this, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[Irisado]

That's a really informative article, as I wasn't aware of all the terminology surrounding the Serpent of Fury tactic, and I certainly hadn't thought of as many tactical applications for it as you have.

When I have more time, I think I will have to collate some of tactical musings together, and put them into a third PDF.

I have just one question. What is capstoning? I've never come across this terms before.

[Ganymene]

I have just one question. What is capstoning? I've never come across this terms before.

I think a capstone is the stone on the top of walls to protect the integrity of the structure. The red Serpent in the front is 'on top' of the other two, protecting the formation from fire.

(and if I'm completely wrong, we'll have to wait for Dweomer to log on and explain it)


Nice write up Dweomer. I had thought Serpent of Fury was dead due to the new line-of-sight rules, but I can see how it can work in 5th. The diagrams were very helpful and made this tactic much easier to understand.

[BlackJet]

Dweomer, Its late, I'm sick, I have classes first thing in the morning so this will be short and sweet.

That was an awesome article, I'd love to see more displays of tactical setups like this. The diagrams help more then you may imagine. I have a MUCH better understanding of some of the strengths and weaknesses of launching troops in a transport that might have taken many games to acquire.

Bravo good sir

[Galley]

Tired here too, but I wanted to add a small bit-

Star engines, as you can add more movement in lieu of shooting, could really assist with a Snake of Fury tactic for LOS purposes. Deploy exposed, shoot, move the serpent back to cover. Repeat.

[Ixe]

You can't star engine on the turn you disembark troops. Obviously, that would have made Star Enginges a worthy replacement for Crystal Targetting Matrix, and that's too non-crappy for GW to let the Eldar have... You could do that if you started the turn deployed, you let the serpent move, shoot with the unit, and then let the serpent move back to cover them. The real problem though, as I see it, is that you pay so many points for the Serpent's twin-linked firepower, you're not likely to win by foregoing their shooting as your main strategy.

[DaveV]

I've decided to come in today and talk about Serpent of Fury...

Hope that this has been informative. Please feel free to give me any feedback or questions. Also, if there's a particular stratagem or tactic you'd like to see illustrated like this, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Thanks very much for the great article! The exacting placement of the third (red) Serpent in each case really adds a lot to the effectiveness of SoF.

I've often used pairs of Serpents, but your Captsone is a fantastic bit of business.

Irisado, an illustrated "Fight Manual" of on-table tactics would be a great addition to the Tactica materials. I like the use of the enemy forces to iullustrate the points.

Dweomer, any thoughts on how to use multiple Serpents and SoF to protect against enemy forces whose movements are difficult to predict? For example, outflanking Genestealers or certain Assassins that appear out of nowwhere.

[Dweomer]

Hey guys, glad to hear you liked the article. A month or so back I also promised to explain some different deployment strategies with and against a Reserves Denial list... I do believe I promised some diagrams and I like this program, so I'll see what I can do about that.

You know, I gotta watch out writing up all these tacticas. I know several guys from my FLGS read this site and this specific tactica...

I think a capstone is the stone on the top of walls to protect the integrity of the structure. The red Serpent in the front is 'on top' of the other two, protecting the formation from fire.

That's exactly the reference. It's the final piece that completes a structure. Technically in the capstone of an arch is called a keystone, but keystoning doesn't sound nearly as cool, does it? (Also, keystones are specific to arches, but capstones are for arches, domes, walls and many other structures...)

Dweomer, any thoughts on how to use multiple Serpents and SoF to protect against enemy forces whose movements are difficult to predict? For example, outflanking Genestealers or certain Assassins that appear out of nowwhere.

Oof, that's a rough one, especially with how fast those can be and how they can pick the weakest point to aggress against. #3 would work against Outflanking if you kicked it left maybe 6" and turned it about 20 degrees clockwise. However, that's really kinda reliant on cover and positioning working out for you.
The nice thing about the ideas I illustrated is that they're actually not too tricky to do if you plan for it. I could see a potential formation where multiple Serpents "circle the wagons" to create a protective barrier, but I don't know how game-feasible it is. Probably about on par with the "interwoven squads for mutual 4++" thing that people prate on about... it's theoretically plausible, but really suffers the moment you ask them to obey the movement rules.
On the rare times I see a Callidus, Reserves Denial and staying in my tanks often pops them out before I have to worry too much. They suck against vehicles and I can drop them at leisure.
Outflanking Genestealers is actually the reason I came up with Capstoning. I needed a way to push against the center of an enemy army while avoiding assault from the edges. Run that up formation around 14"+ from the board edge and Genestealers won't have enough move to assault anything but your tanks. You can then Bladestorm or Banshee them at leisure.
I'll think on this a bit more though and see if I can come up with anything...

[Nagamo]

Thx for this excellent summary Dweomer! SoF is a strategy that can work, but I wouldnīt build a list around it. Itīs vailable for a mechwing, but not as effective as FoF in 4th edition. Firewarriors and Avangers have alot in common, but nethertheless the FW are 2 points cheaper than avangers, not to mention the ex. The Devilfish comes with a pulsecanon and 2 drones for free and especially the drones are really good for FoF, as they are set free after moving the Fish in and so blocking potential attacks and giving firesupport (2 shots power 5 synch. that can pin). The mobile FW are normally supported by other flexible units like crisis suits or ghosts and supported by scoutmarkers so that you force the enemy to react to your moves by choosing your fights and a list build around FoF were very effective. Mirroring this composition with Eldar would by quite expensive and not as effective if you ask me, but SoF can work very well as a surprise element.
P.S.: Dweomer, how did you make these jpegs?

[Irisado]

I think a capstone is the stone on the top of walls to protect the integrity of the structure. The red Serpent in the front is 'on top' of the other two, protecting the formation from fire.

(and if I'm completely wrong, we'll have to wait for Dweomer to log on and explain it)

No, you were right, and that clears up that gap in my knowledge. Thank you for the explanation.

Irisado, an illustrated "Fight Manual" of on-table tactics would be a great addition to the Tactica materials. I like the use of the enemy forces to iullustrate the points.

It's a good idea, but someone will have to teach me how to create such diagrams, as I've never done it before, so I have no idea how it's achieved. I'm much better with words than I am with IT.

I've started work on copying and pasting some of Dweomer's tacticas, so that I can put them all into a PDF, and create a third section to the Eldar Guide. I will also be adding one of my own on the hammer and anvil tactic, which I'm currently working on for both this site and 40k Online, so I'm booking the hammer and anvil tactic, but if anyone else wants to discuss other strategies, please do so, as they will all be collated and added to the PDF.

[Midknightwraith]

Mirroring this composition with Eldar would by quite expensive and not as effective if you ask me, but SoF can work very well as a surprise element.

I think you underestimate how effective this can be, Nagamo, and how cheap it can be.

Yes, the minimum cost serpent is 100 pts. With the more expensive usable variants costing 140, or 145. Points that could easily buy almost another full squad of aspect warriors. But, the beauty of this setup is being able to engage when and where you want to, allowing you the ability to engage only portions of the enemy army at once.

I've only got two serpents, but I am planning on getting a third to deploy a wing carrying DAs, Dragons, and Banshees. My current wing doesn't have the DAs, and uses a pair of the 140 Serpents with EML, and Cannon, and has been very effective as a group. Adding DAs and downgrading the Serpent weapons a bit are going to make this wing that much more effective.

Expensive, ~800 pts Expensive. Is it worth more than say the same units plus an extra unit of DAs and either Banshees or Dragons on Foot. Heck yeah it is! Definitely worth much more than a "Surprise Element". Do Tau do it better, yes in shooting, but not in combination with assault units. And oh look we even have room for our boosting HQs.

I've played mixed Mech for a long time, and I am slowly being drawn into the seductive web of the full Mech camp. I still think mixed mech is better, because it gives your opponent something to focus his attention on, and carefull placemnt will cause his units to spread out so that your Mechanized elements can deal with them piecemeal, but Mechanized Eldar is quite good. and SoF is one of the tools, and it's a good one. Provided you plan properly for it.

[Ixe]

I think there are two flavors of effective mech.

#1 is the Eldar Air Force. It's got nothing but Serpents and Prisms. Inside the Serpents are cheap choices like Storm Guardians and Fire Dragons. The goal of the list is to blow people away with linked prism firepower supported by waveserpent firepower, and then rush them in the last few turns of the game to hammer the nail in the coffin. The list is most effective with 2 Autarchs, since that lets them start in reserve to cancel out going 2nd, or deep striking armies. I'm honestly not a huge fan of this list, because it relies on attrition, and Eldar tanks are not as durable as they used to be. An opponent beat me using this style list at Ard Boyz, but partly because I was unprepared for it. The opponent just before me, however, stomped it by getting lucky rolls to kill the tanks. Since the list gives the opponent so many turns to destroy the tanks, a bit of unforunate rolling and there goes your victory.

I believe that mech armies must typically give their opponent only 1-2 turns of firing at transports -- the transports must close range fast enough that if they're not all dead right off the bat, the opponent has lost.

And that's why I prefer style #2: The Swordwind. Now, before people get confused, let me clarify: It's NOT a Biel Tan list per se, and it's DEFINITELY not one of those "1 of every Aspect" carney reject lists that I've seen people calling Biel Tan. It is a mech list that focuses on a two-stage, all-out beatdown. It needs at least one Autarch, preferably Yriel, so it can safely start in Reserves. The idea of the list is to use fast-moving transports to come right in the opponent's face. He has to break through their energy fields and cover saves, and even if he does, he's left with angry Aspect warriors who will kill him next turn. The idea being that, no matter what the enemy does, on the turn after the transports move into position, he'll be hit with the entire fury of the Eldar army. This list hinges on a coordinated all-out assault. And I think it's a lot more viable than your attrition-based tactics -- Eldar are about hitting hard, and hitting fast, but not lasting very long. If the opponent isn't totally boned on the turn after you hit him, then he'll win by overcoming your T3 pansy-men. The Swordwind plays on Eldar's strengths, hopefully debilitating the enemy enough with the initial charge that there isn't much left to resist you.

Now, this only relates to SoF tangentially, because you could use SoF tactics in either type of list. SoF is just a matter of how to protect Dire Avengers when they disembark from tanks to shoot, because none of our other units have the range, volume, or strength of fire for the tactic to matter. Well, maybe fire dragons. But regardless, it's a tactic that you'd expect to see in any list utilizing DAs, FDs, and waveserpents, whether it's an air force, swordwind, or even hybrid mech list. What I was trying to respond to was the discussion of whether our armies should be "based around" SoF, which I think is a red herring -- obviously, we can't base our list around the tactic, because only certain troops can pull it off. Because Eldar are so specialized, you typically need a good selection of units, including assault units, to grab the victory.

[USER1]

In 4th i used your second style of mech list but since 5th i have used a 3rd type of mech list and had a lot more success. Its basically usin fortune seers to protect your transports.

Ive been using 3 serpents of dire avengers with a fortune + doom seer and eldrad. The 3 serpents are fortuned and nigh indestrucable. The avengers are deployed into cover to bladestorm and are fortuned making them seer council durable. It works realy well for me.

[Ixe]

That sounds like a very conditional tactic, to me. Unless your Serpents go flat out, you must rely on cover for your tanks, which aren't always available. You also must rely on your Avengers having nice cover to drop into. Also, the enemy can't be one of those that is virtually immune to Avenger fire, like plague marines. And of course, the enemy can't bring any AP4 flamers, which are becoming more and more common -- one Dragon's Breath Flamer with Crack Shot could easily kill your whole squad of Avengers, with no saves of any kind...


Anyway, check out my nasty list! I got so sick of my proxy fire prism that I decided to make a list without any! It's basically swordwind style, predicated on a two-stage assault, after which there will hopefully be few enemies left alive. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...29#post3226629