V5.0 Eldar Tactica

[Thud]

1/3

As it has been noted by a couple of you, the tactical debate in this thread seems rather dead at the moment, so I thought I’d get the ball rolling again. I thought I’d take one of the units in the Eldar codex that everyone seems to agree is sub-par, include it in my army list and argue in favour of it. The unit I have in mind is expensive in points as well as in cash, it’s not very reliable for shooting and it dies if one’s opponent so much as glances its way. I am, of course, referring to the Vyper. So, without further ado, I precent to you, my esteemed peers; this:


In defence of the Vyper.

First of all, I’ll post my 1,750 points army list, so you’ll all have a frame of reference of where I’m coming from:

Farseer w/ doom, runes of warding
10 Howling Banshees Incl. Exarch w/ executioner
Wave Serpent w/ spirit stones, twin-linked shuriken cannon

9 Fire Dragons Incl. Exarch w/ dragon’s breath flamer, crack shot
Wave Serpent w/ spirit stones, twin-linked shuriken cannon

8 Fire Dragons Incl. Exarch w/ dragon’s breath flamer, crack shot
Wave Serpent w/ spirit stones, twin-linked shuriken cannon

3x 5 Dire Avengers

2 Vypers w/ 2 scatter lasers, 2 shuriken cannons

3x Falcon w/ pulse laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, holo-fields
1,728 points.

Also, before I begin, in the name of full disclosure, I must admit that this list is not completely finished nor has it ever seen action, so everything that follows is nought but theoryhammer and tactical principles. I would, however, ask you to keep an open mind, and if you, as I, love the Vyper models and would hope to see them more used, to then add your own ideas to what I hope turns out to be our collective pool of resources on how to utilize the Vyper to the best of its abilities.

Now, on to the matter at hand. Yes, the Vyper is fragile. Yes, it suffers from a low BS. Yes, it could be an easy kill point. Yes, it is over costed. And finally, yes, it is not even a scoring unit. It does sound quite daunting, doesn’t it? Well, how do we circumvent some of these drawbacks?

The first thing to do is the weapon options. Putting a Bright Lance on a Vyper means you’ll be paying 75 points for a one-shot weapon that hits half the time and penetrates heavy armour one third of the time. Hardly anything to get one’s rocks off over. As you can see from my army list above, I’ve gone for the S6 spam. Seven S6 shots will at least mitigate some of the disadvantage of having a low BS, and it is still good enough to handle lightly armoured transports.

The fragility is another issue that needs adressing. First part in dealing with this is to get weapons with a decent range. Enter Scatter Laser. The Shuriken Cannon, as I’ve included as well, has a lower range, so should only be used in concert with other parts of one’s army to ensure nothing is left to blast them out of the sky. So, combining the speed of the Vyper and the range of the Scatter Laser, you can position yourself to shoot at units without risking retaliation from long ranged enemy weapons, at least not many of them.

The high point cost is also somewhat problematic. My variant clocks in at 70 points per Vyper, which is, admittedly, somewhat on the high side. This means you’ll have to use them to the very best of their ability to get your points worth. More on this later.

The non-scoring issue is also problematic. Concerning uncontested objectives, they’re worthless, and on objectives contested by the opponent there are also a range of problems. First, if you do not have the last turn, you can be sure that everything your opponent has will be targeting those fragile Vypers in order to secure the objective you’re now contesting, and being fragile they’ll most likely get shot down. However, it must be mentioned, as with much in the Eldar army, things work together and unit efficiency is exponential. If you do not have last turn, you could contest several objectives and force your opponent to divide his/her fire power to deal with all your objective contesters, and this would thus give each unit contesting an objective a higher chance of survival. Now, if you do have last turn, there is still one problem that could prove difficult. Unlike the Falcon, the Vypers are not tanks, so you cannot simply drive up to an objective, tank shock whoever’s holding it off and either take the objective completely or at least contest it. Of course, the opponent’s unit may not have had the opportunity or time to consolidate upon the objective, allowing you to still be able to contest it, but this can hardly be counted on as part of a battle plan.

Moving on to how best utilize the Vypers.
So, with my army list as the starting point, how then to best utilize these Vypers? First off, I believe, we must distinguish between different army types one is likely to encounter. I have set up six categories of armies:

1. The fast fragile army (i.e., Ork Speed Freaks, Dark Eldar).
2. The horde (Orks, IG, Nids)
3. Mech (Mechanized SM or Chaos, Mech Guard, Mech Tau)
4. Foot Marines (Footslogging Marines, Chaos or Necrons)
5. Nidzilla (Nidzilla, Daemonzilla etc)
6. Deepstrikers (Drop Pod armies, Deathwing, Daemons)

As you may notice; on first glance Deathwing may not appear to fit into the Deepstrikers group, as any DW player will tell you; “DW don’t deep strike!” True, but the principle in how you counter them is the same with the rest of the deepstrikers. Also, I have not included Eldar anywhere here (though an Eldar Mech army would warrant its own category) as I prefer never to play against the same army I’m using unless I have to (tournaments), but if anyone feel the need to include it, feel free to write it up.

Now, onto how to use the Vypers against the different army types. Remember that this is in the context of using a purely mechanized Eldar army.

First up;

The fast fragile armies.
Against these types of armies you can’t expect to dominate the movement phase or dictate the movement of your opponent’s forces to the same degree you can with others as your opponent is as fast as you are (or slightly slower in the case of Orks, unless they’re on roads). Therefore it becomes vital to slow your opponent down to retain the largest asset you’re relying on with a mech army. This, I believe, is where the Vypers can shine. By detaching the Vyper squadron from the main force, you can again force your opponent to dance to your tune. By positioning your entire force, except the Vypers, on one flank (let’s say the right) and the Vypers on the other (left) you now force your opponent to make a choice between essentially three alternatives: 1. Ignore the Vypers, 2. Send a small force to deal with the Vypers, or 3. Send a large force to deal with the Vypers.

If your opponent chooses to ignore the Vypers, you can easily start to pick off the lightly armoured transports with your Scatter Lasers well out of range from whatever falls out of them, while the rest of your army has an easier time dealing with the opposing force. Eventually, somewhere around turn three or four or so, you move in with the Vypers for the final kill along with the rest of your army. Up to this point they have remained in the periphery, taking pot-shots at whatever presents itself.

If your opponent sends a small force to deal with them, say a DE Raider Squad and a Ravager, you focus on the largest threat (the Ravager) and while you may succeed in taking out the small force entirely (your main force could send some shuriken shots in that direction as well), you should seek to keep the small DE task force occupied for as long as possible, thus making your main force’s job easier as it will face less opposition.

Now, if your opponent decides to send a larger force to deal with the Vypers, again using DE as the example; three or more units, you should seek to keep them busy for as long as possible, this time with no help from the main force (as it will concentrate solely on overpowering the rest of the DE army), and simultaneously work to get as much distance between this smaller skirmish and the larger battle as possible; i.e., divide and conquer. This way you get to have the advantages of movement (choose where to strike) even though both armies are equally fast.


Continued in next post.

[Thud]

2/3

Concluding the fast fragile armies, we move on to;

Horde armies.
Horde armies are typically characterized by there being lots of models (yarly!), but also by them being relatively lightly armed, having large unit sizes and low on tank-busting fire power. The exception, of course, is the Imperial Guard, but we’ll move on to them after dealing with the Orks and Nids first.

Against your run-of-the-mill Ork or Nid horde you are already at an advantage running a mechanized skimmer army, so your Vypers in this instance will basically just add to your fire power against the opposing force. Specifically, you should keep your distance from potential hazards (such as Shoota Boyz with Big Shootas) and concentrate on two types of units. First, the opponent’s mobile units. Most Ork hordes tend to include at least one Trukk, or some Deffkoptas or whatever. By taking these out, you’re back to having complete domination over the movement phase. Also, the second unit type is direct threats to your other skimmers; units such as Lootas or Dakkafexes. Here you can, hopefully, create a win-win situation by engaging them with your Vypers. Either you take them out (or at least severely reduce their damage output) or they are sufficiently threatened by your Vypers (or excited by the easy kill they represent) to engage them instead of your Serpents; this will buy your Fire Dragons the time they need to show up and save the day by flaming the Lootas or fusion-gunning the Dakkafexes.

Imperial Guard hordes, on the other hand, is another cup of tea entirely. They have small units and they never seem to lack any ranged anti-tank fire power. Fortunately lasguns are S3, so against your mech army the only weapons of any use at all (before your skimmers start taking nose-dives) are the special weapons. There are two types of units that should receive the attention of your Vypers: Major battle tanks (specifically their rear armou) and the regular ten man infantry squad. Beginning with the latter; by combining the fire power of your Vypers and a Serpent or some Falcons you should have a decent chance at taking out a unit per turn. Or, you could go hunting for command squads and the like. Five Guardsmen don’t tend to last long against 14 S6 shots. As for the Battle Tanks; get behind them and blow them up. Of course, it’s not as easy as that, because when you do, for some reason, the Guard player seems to regard the Vypers as a serious threat. As with most things, this is something that can be taken advantage of; everything that’s firing at your Vypers is something that is not firing at your Serpents.

The observant reader may have noted that IG can make super-units of a million Guardsmen each in KP missions, something which I have yet to mention. Well, here it is: Unfortunately here your options are rather limited. Either go after rear armour, or pour as much fire into the grunts as possible to assist the rest of your force. An advantage is that the low amount of IG units that result of this merging will cause the Guard army to be unable to target all of your units so your opponent will have to choose who to target. Usually this means the Vypers will have carte blanche to blast away unopposed. Score!

Mech armies.
I’ve combined IG, SM and CSM here as they are all armies with transports moving 12 inches full of guys with either close combat abilities or short ranged fire power. What to do here is pretty self-explanatory; bust the Rhinos/Chimeras while staying out of range from the units only able to hurt the Vypers, but inside the range of those able to hurt the Serpents.

Again, the IG stands out as the unruly problem child because, unlike the Marine variants, their transports can shoot back at your Vypers. Damn IG! Fortunately, IG players are nice enough to usually bring along some serious heavy armour. As you’ll be outmatched by the cheaper Chimeras, it would be advisable to go for the rear armour of the Battle Tanks. Due to scatter and only having half strength unless hitting with the central hole combined with the small size of the Vypers, you should be able to attract some attention from some of the mounted units, again playing on the divide and conquer scheme laid out in the “Fast and Fragile” section.

Foot Marines
The common denominator of this specific variety of armies is the proliferation of many small, or small-ish, units who are all capable of, if not destroying, at least incapacitating your Vypers. A regular Marine squad, or a Necron Warrior unit for that matter, can destroy your unit single-handedly if lucky, but definitely keep it from doing anything useful. Fortunately the Vypers have range on their side against most of the weapons of the unit (barring the heavy weapon). Thus they should stay as much as possible out of range and concentrate on units on the edge of the opponent’s army so other units won’t have range either and then pour shots into that unit. Especially they should concentrate on footslogging units making their move towards objectives.

Now, in times like these, such armies seem rather rare. At least they tend to include at least one mounted unit for objective grabbing and the like. In principle this should be targeted first, destroying any mobility in the opposing force, but it’s still important to keep in mind the range issue mentioned in the previous paragraph; so, don’t engage it if it means moving within range of other units capable of destroying your Vypers with their standard weapons.

Nidzilla.
As with any other army, these armies also need some scoring units. However, unlike most other armies they tend to be very low on fire power. Especially of the anti-tank variety. Of course, a Dakkafex can ruin a Vyper crew’s day without much hassle if given the opportunity, so it’s important to watch out for that.

In these circumstances it’s vital to get a consolidated strike in against the opposing force. Until that opportunity presents itself, however, the Scatter Lasers on the Vypers can be used to take wounds of Carnifexes without the 2+ save upgrade, Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. Stay out of their range and fire away. If you’re lucky you could even kill one. If not, at least you’ve made the Banshees and the Fire Dragons’ job easier later on.

Now, when you’re ready for the strike, in turn two or three or so, the Vypers should focus on the scoring units and stay focused upon them until they’re dead. Use the Fire Dragons and Banshees to take out the big things and the Vypers to take out the scoring units. The socring units, incidentally, tend to not have any much in the way of fire power (Genestealers, Gaunts and lesser Daemons) so you can easily stay at about 20-24 inches away and shoot them to smithereens. And if the big things for some reason choose to focus on the Vypers instead of the Fire Dragons standing right in front of them; well, bully to them!


Continued in next post.

[Thud]

3/3

Deep Strike Armies.
Here, of course, you’ll be reserving your entire army, but how you use the Vypers depends on whether or not you are going first.

When going second, your opponent would usually deploy everything available on turn one as close together as possible to avoid having portions of the army overwhelmed. If he does not; overwhelm portions of his army. Most likely the opponent will not have deployed everything by the time you get your second turn and start bringing stuff on. Unless you get your entire army on the table, which is highly unlikely, you should deploy as far away as possible from the opponent and hope he starts to divide his forces. If he does, just do in parts of his army at a time. If he does not, however, you can pull the same trick with the Vypers one more time, causing him to have the same choices as the “Fast and Fragile” army, but with less capabilities to actually implement either of those who involve moving in to handle your Vypers. Your response to any of his actions should be the same one as if it were against the fast army, but you should now have an easier time pulling it off while the rest of your army does its thing.

Deathwing, as I mentioned in the beginning of this rather long article, are rather similar to these armies when it comes to handling them. Against DW, though, you don’t have to reserve your entire army, but I would recommend it. In the DW Tactica thread there’s a mantra of sorts going around, which says “if it doesn’t ignore my armour save; I ignore it” and this is what your Vypers should expect when going up against DW; to be ignored. As you might have surmised, this leads to the “pour fire into them and hope for the best” usage, but there’s a little trick. As with the “Fast and Fragile” you should stay as far away as possible from the rest of your force, but in this case just pour fire into the unit closest to you. If there’s a Dreadnought on the table, you should target that (from the rear), but if not just go for a Terminator squad. Worst case scenario you accomplish the same as you would by hanging out with the rest of your army; potentially a couple of dead Terminators. But best case scenario is that you kill off a few guys and the Vypers are suddenly regarded as a threat which will have to be dealt with. No matter what the DW player does to handle the Vypers it will be a significant portion of the army and the rest of your forces will have an easier time dealing with the rest of the DW army.




Well, that about does it for this article. If you’re wondering, it’s a total of 3126 words excluding this last paragraph. I hope it’s been worth my while and I would appreciate any feedback and I hope there will be an interesting discussion on Vypers. I, as I have said, love the models and I am determined to use them, so it would be nice to get the best out of them.

[Grindgodgrind]

Great articles, Thud. Definitely gave me some ideas on how I could use Vypers to support my Serpents Of Fury army. I'm thinking more towards EML's though, but that may make them very costly.

[Thud]

Great articles, Thud. Definitely gave me some ideas on how I could use Vypers to support my Serpents Of Fury army. I'm thinking more towards EML's though, but that may make them very costly.

EMLs could be used instead of the Scatter Lasers and still fill the roles detailed in my article, but they would then suffer two additional drawbacks: More points and only having one shot with their low BS. They would get an additional 12 inch range, so in some of the roles they would thus have an edge.

[Sildani]

Bear in mind though that the plasma missile will scatter and be mitigated by the BS 3. Against a horde, that should hit something.

Good stuff Thud! It's going to make me think.

[Lukasz_VT]

Wow Thud, thank you! I love the vyper models too, but was dismayed to realise how costly and fragile they are. Thanks for giving a lot of food for thought and taking time to write such an in depth article

I'm a noob and so don't feel I have the experience to analyse them much, but I look forward to the tactics debate!

[mchmr6677]

As for the Vypers vs Warwalkers thing, doesn't the composition of your army effect which you take (and fast attack vs heavy slot) ?

In a mech or bike army unless you're outflanking War Walkers aren't they going to get isolated very quickly, or slow down the rest of your fast moving units ?

It is indeed true that if you have already filled all three HS slots then the Vypers are an obvious choice over the warwalkers. However, compared to the other HS options, it will be rare that you will have all three slots filled unless you are running triple wraithlord (in which case you wont need the warwalkers anyway).

Now the concern about the warwalkers getting isolated is an interesting question because one of two things will happen if the rest of your force is mech:
Either, the warwalkers will stay on your board edge and force your opponent to move against them to stop them (thus diverting part of the your opponent's strength away from the rest of your force).
Or, the warwalkers will outflank and thus pop up on one flank or the other and usually blow something apart when they do it.

In either case, warwalkers are dangerous enough even without a guideseer to warrent your opponent's attention. 24 S6 shots has a tendency to force most players to need to deal with it. This gives your opponent something else to think about. They can't just turn their force to face your flanking units when the walkers are in the center of your zone. Along the same lines they will risk a rear shot if the walkers outflank and come from the opposite side that you flanking.

[Thud]

Bear in mind though that the plasma missile will scatter and be mitigated by the BS 3. Against a horde, that should hit something.

Indeed it will, but when it comes to cracking transports the BS3 really starts to become a nuisance.

Good stuff Thud! It's going to make me think.

I certainly hope it does, and I hope you'll share your thoughts and experiences here.

Wow Thud, thank you! I love the vyper models too, but was dismayed to realise how costly and fragile they are. Thanks for giving a lot of food for thought and taking time to write such an in depth article

Well, that's what I was going for, I hope you'll get something out if it.

I'm a noob and so don't feel I have the experience to analyse them much, but I look forward to the tactics debate!

Don't worry about it. Us veterans* are often set in our ways and sometimes someone new comes along with a great idea that had never even crossed our minds. If you have an idea you think could work, don't be afraid to share it. The worst that could happen is that someone will explain why it won't work and you'll have learned something more about your army, but you could also have discovered something great!

*I'm using the term "veterans" rather loosely here. I've played Eldar only since the start of this year, but I've played 40k for about a decade.

[Gwyidion]

An aside to the vyper thing (I have to side with the why-ever-take-them camp, sorry), I'm headed into a gaming weekend with a friend who plays SM and Tau. I'll let y'all know how it goes. A general idea of my list (i have 4, but this will be my 'serious' one - it isn't totally serious, as i don't own a third wraithlord or an avatar yet, but it's as serious as it gets for now):
Eldrad
Asurmen
2x10 wraithguard, conceal etc
10x harlies, shadowseer, etc
2x BL/EML WL

and as many swooping hawks/spiders as i can fit in 203 points, or 2 ranger squads, or 2 guardian squads. I'm still split on filling out the last 200.

[Thud]

Definitely Rangers for the last 200 points, if those are your only options. I'd write a longer post telling you why, but I really can't be bothered right now.

If you can get that third Wraithlord up and running before the weekend, that would be your best bet, though.

[Irisado]

On the EML versus hordes issue, the problem I have with the Plasma Missile is that its strength isn't high enough to make a significant enough impact on toughness four hordes compared to the Scatter Laser, so I don't rate the EML as much of an Ork killer. It may be more effective against Tyranids and Guardsmen though.

Regarding the Vyper article, I think it's very good Thud, although you won't persuade me to field my sole Vyper, as I just think it involves my giving my opponent a free kill point.

The idea of spamming strength six, multiple shot, weapons on them is probably your best bet if you do want to take one, although one Shuriken Cannon or one Scatter Laser can still be useful if the points are tight.

I also agree that using them as a distraction unit is probably the tactic of choice against most armies, and that having them target vehicles with weak rear armour can work reasonably well.

I would still only recommend taking Vypers though if your model collection is limited, and you don't want to spend money adding other choices to your force.

[Thud]

Regarding the Vyper article, I think it's very good Thud, although you won't persuade me to field my sole Vyper, as I just think it involves my giving my opponent a free kill point.

Working hard to fit my description of conservative veterans set in their ways, I see.

But yeah, one Vyper is a bit of a free kill point, but the same can be said about five Dire Avengers but you wouldn't write Dire Avengers off as a poor unit due to that, would you?

The idea of spamming strength six, multiple shot, weapons on them is probably your best bet if you do want to take one, although one Shuriken Cannon or one Scatter Laser can still be useful if the points are tight.

Of these I believe the Scatter Laser is the only way to go, however much I love Shuriken Cannons, not because of the extra shot, but solely due to the longer range. This would help tremendously against falling into the "free kill point" pitfall Vypers tend to hover over.

I also agree that using them as a distraction unit is probably the tactic of choice against most armies, and that having them target vehicles with weak rear armour can work reasonably well.

Yeah, that's one way to sum up 3k words.

I would still only recommend taking Vypers though if your model collection is limited, and you don't want to spend money adding other choices to your force.

Or, you could do as I did, and add Vypers to an already extensive model collection and write a ridiculously long article convincing yourself that you made a good decision in buying them.

[Irisado]

Working hard to fit my description of conservative veterans set in their ways, I see.

Only for you .

But yeah, one Vyper is a bit of a free kill point, but the same can be said about five Dire Avengers but you wouldn't write Dire Avengers off as a poor unit due to that, would you?

Five Dire Avengers outside of a Falcon would be written off as an easy kill point by me that's for sure .

Of these I believe the Scatter Laser is the only way to go, however much I love Shuriken Cannons, not because of the extra shot, but solely due to the longer range. This would help tremendously against falling into the "free kill point" pitfall Vypers tend to hover over.

A good point, and I think that you are broadly right.

The only supplementary clause I would add to that is that against armies with static tanks (those pesky Imperial Guard again, but also gun line Marine armies with Whirlwinds and Predator), the only way you can have a chance of being at an angle to shoot their rear armour is if you get in close in my view, so sometimes it is worth taking the Shuriken Cannon if you are tight on points and are employing an aggressive strategy with your Eldar army.

Yeah, that's one way to sum up 3k words.

It's my PhD training. I have to learn to become a better summariser .

Or, you could do as I did, and add Vypers to an already extensive model collection and write a ridiculously long article convincing yourself that you made a good decision in buying them.

Yes, you certainly could, and if you have got the money, I won't discourage people from doing that.

Vypers are also quite easy to paint, relative to certain other Eldar models in my opinion too, so there is another positive side to them.

[Thud]

The only supplementary clause I would add to that is that against armies with static tanks (those pesky Imperial Guard again, but also gun line Marine armies with Whirlwinds and Predator), the only way you can have a chance of being at an angle to shoot their rear armour is if you get in close in my view, so sometimes it is worth taking the Shuriken Cannon if you are tight on points and are employing an aggressive strategy with your Eldar army.

Very true, but I feel doing that would be moving too much towards the "gearing your army for a specific opponent" area, something I personally always try to stay well clear of, so I won't comment too much upon that.

[DaveV]

Thud, thanks for the articles. I've got some unbuilt Vypers that might get some love now...

***

For those who are interested, I have updated our gaming group's blog with my latest battle report. It was a one-off game, 1700 points a side, Swordwind against Chaos, with six portable objectives. We played at our local GW store.

The batrep is posted here:
http://wpggamegeeks.blogspot.com/200...-recovery.html

Brief tactical notes:
I deep struck the Warp Spiders to both snipe a transport and to "herd" a downed Imperial pilot (functionally, a minor objective) towards the Eldar lines. I used Shining Spears as bodyguards for my "reserves denial" Autarch. I ended up sacrificing the Fire Dragons and Howling Banshees by making a basic error, but their sacrifice was not completely in vain.

Happy gaming!

[Plebian]

Thud-
Great article. For your next one could you do rangers? I have a squad of 5 in my 1850 mech list and they have killed precisely nothing. They are ok for objective holding, but I am considering swapping them out for a squad of jetbikes. How do you use rangers? Do I need a bigger unit? Am I just doing it wrong?

here is my list:
HQ
1 Farseer w/ Jetbike, Fortune, Runes of Warding 130
3 Warlocks w/ Jetbike,Enhance 195
Autarch w/Jetbike, Laserlance, Mandiblaster 130
ELITE
10 Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch, Scorpion Claw, Shadowstrike 207
10 Howling Banshees w/Exarch, Executioner, Acrobatic 187
-Wave Serpent w/Shuriken Cannons, Spiritstones 110
10 Fire Dragons 160
-Wave Serpent w/ Shuriken Cannons, Spirit Stones 110
TROOPS
10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch, 2x Shuriken Catapult, Blade Storm 152
-Wave Serpent w/ EML 120
10 Dire Avengers w/ Exarch, 2x Shuriken Catapult, Bladestorm 152
-Wave Serpent w/ Shuriken Cannons, Spirit Stones 110
5 Rangers 95
Total: 1850

[Far Seer]

Don't forgot that Banshees and Harlies can both fleet, which would give him a bit of mobility. They'd work better as a counter assault unit, while the Scorpions use Stalker to move up the board.

If I was only taking one CC unit I'd take Scorps everytime, with two I'd probably take one Scorp and one of the others.

with the banshees working as a counter assault unit. how would i use them? would counter assaulting still count as mounting them up in a wave serpent? i just don't have the points to field another wave serpent

[Irisado]

with the banshees working as a counter assault unit. how would i use them? would counter assaulting still count as mounting them up in a wave serpent? i just don't have the points to field another wave serpent

In my experience, Striking Scorpions are the best counter assault unit in the Eldar army due to their relatively high level of durability, which makes them more durable in protracted combats, and the fact that they can be used on foot in this role.

Howling Banshees only really work as a counter assault unit on foot in Cityfight, or if you are defending a fire base or fortification which your opponent has to capture, whereby they can hide behind a hill or a building until they are needed. This is because they are very fragile, and are likely to be shot to pieces quickly if fielded on foot in normal games. In most cases, therefore, I have found them to be much better off being mounted in a Wave Serpent, and spearheading a flank attack.

[Karhedron]

Eldrad
Asurmen
2x10 wraithguard, conceal etc
10x harlies, shadowseer, etc
2x BL/EML WL

Eldrad fits nicely with the list but I am not sure about Asurmen. Perhaps Yriel would be a better choice. A common tactic is to run Yriel with the Harlequins. The turn you plan to charge, have Yriel leave the Harlie unit but have both charge the same target together.

At the end of the Turn, the Harlies Hit'n Run leaving any surviving enemy forced to consolidate around Yriel. Start of the next assault phase, use Yriel's blast ability to nuke the enemy unit now surrounding him.

Brutal against anything without a 2+ save.