5th ed CSM notes

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

I posted a lot up on 4th edition CSMs when they came out. Now I have a document about all CSM's uses in 5th.

Chaos Space Marines in 5th:

Special Characters:

Abaddon: With so many different scenarios falling under Instant Death now, Abaddon is even nastier than before with resilience. But to be honest, a WS7, Str8, Power-Weapon-toting, 4+ invuln-wearing, 4+D6 attack throwing, Nightbringer-whacking monstrosity needs little justification as to why anyone should use him.

Fabius Bile: When before he was basically a mediocre Sorcerer… well he basically still is. His Warrior Enhancement is also fairly hit-or-miss, but the Run rules and improved Rhino buff makes these Enhanced Warriors slightly better. Because, to be honest, nobody buys Fabius for Fabius.

Huron Blackheart: When Powerfists once used to be good, Huron was only slightly less clowny. Before, he was basically a way to combine a Powerfist with Warptime. Now that he has less attacks for losing the +1A bonus for 2 weapons, Warptime means all the much more. You can also switch to the Power Weapon and Warptime, which is pretty nice. However, Huron is largely mediocre.

Typhus: Not bad. Still basically a Sorcerer rather than a Lord, but a Sorcerer with a Poisoned Weapon is nothing to sneeze at in 5th edition. Even when not acting as a Force Weapon, a Poisoned Daemon Weapon is an awesomely cool toy. But what really decides whether or not you should use Typhus is how much you value his toys. You can always just give a Chaos Lord a Manreaper for similar hack-and-slash effect, and for a serious points discount compared to Typhus. It’s just a matter of deciding whether or not Feel No Pain, Wind of Chaos, and Blight Grenades are worth it. For me, 225 pts is way too expensive to a model who gets cracked in the jaw by Powerfists anyway, and now that he can’t kill Killzones anymore to get rid of fists, it’s all the more a problem.

Kharn: The errata to Gorechild keeps him from tearing Falcons out of the air, but Str6 on the charge with 2d6 penetration with 7 attacks on the charge can put the fear into any tank. He’ll rip Walkers open in a heartbeat. Or at least he’d better. Like all other CSM heroes except Abaddon, anything Str8 or higher (including anything with DCCWs) will crush him like a bug. But for his meager price tag, it’s largely worth it. The problem is that he fights so much better alone, but it’s hard to keep Kharn isolated and alive. Mostly it’s just a bullet you’ll have to bite down on.

Ahriman: The new Perils ought to cause Ahriman some headaches, as if you don’t perils with him at least once, he either gets killed first or you’re very lucky. He’s still just a Sorcerer, but a Sorcerer who can cast 3 powers (including the Force Weapon’s insta-gib) in a single player turn. However, this is no longer purely unique to Ahriman with the clarifications to Force Weapons, as now normal Tzeentch Sorcerers can mix Warptime and Force Weapons.

Lucius the Eternal: Armor of Shrieking Souls can be fun, but that’s all that’s really fancy about him. He’s not the best character killer in the game. Hardly. He’s actually much better against hordes, where the more saves he can take, the better. It’s even more likely in 5th edition, where enemies will be forced to charge in at Lucius when he charges them. You may even want to charge Lucius in alone against massive hordes. If he dies, he’s not that expensive. But if he lives, you’ll win combat by a ton, just off sheer passed armor saves turning into enemy power weapon wounds. Take the average Ork or Tyranid horde for example. Want to crush a large part of it quickly and cheaply? Well if you’re too cheap for Berserkers, Lucius can get the job done.

HQ:

Daemon Prince: The fact that Wings don’t make you easier to shoot is a call for relief amongst prince-heavy players, but it hurts that dakka can rip through area terrain and eat him apart. Princes usually shrug off your average high-AP shots anyway, so the new cover is a huge blow to them. The fact that they can no-longer score, an advantage that Princes had over all other CSM HQs up until now, means that there may be a drastic drop in Prince usage. However, this is offset by Princes’ ability to run in the new edition, making Wings slightly less of an obvious choice. Princes also get the better of the new Psychic Power rules, which clarify that the normal Princes can cast one power per player turn, not game turn, making Warptimed Nurgle Princes into obscene meteors of pain.

Chaos Lord: A big problem with Chaos Lords was being insta-gibbed by Powerfists. Fortunately, with the Fist nerf, many Fists are being replaced by Power Weapons, which Chaos Lords can largely stand up to. The top-tier Chaos Lord of 5th is probably the Nurgle Lord w/ Plaguebringer. Put him on a Bike and give him a Daemon Weapon and he’s a super-tough nut to crack. You could even put him on a Palanquin and give him a Daemon Weapon for even nastier hitting power. The Khorne Lord also gets a substantial buff with the loss of Killzone rules. Now that casualties can be picked from anywhere, Chaos Lords w/ Bloodfeeders can become hyper-destructive. Running also mitigates their inability to be put in Transports.

Chaos Sorcerer: If the Chaos Space Marines had an “OMFG CHEESE” award, it would probably go to the new Chaos Sorcerer, particularly the Tzeentch-based variety. As befits such masters of magic, Warptime and Force Weapons make a frightening combination on Tzeentch Sorcerers, who can use both each player turn. Unfortunately, many units are immune to Force Weapons’ effects with the ridiculous spread-around of Eternal Warriors, but it’s still a powerful effect to be able to hide something like that in a unit and then pounce with it. Nurgle Sorcerers might be able to put that to better use, if you didn’t care about the Force Weapon. And who can forget the Lash Sorcerer, a model whose “OMFG CHEESE!” cries still ring fresh in our ears. Maybe with the Warptime change, we might see Slaaneesh Sorcerers with Warptime instead. …Meh, I didn’t think so either.

Elite:

Chosen: The Outflank maneuver is high on the list of powerful aspects of 5th edition, but it should not be overlooked by good old fashioned Infiltration. Granted, hiding is going to be nigh-impossible with TLoS bathing the board, but when Infiltration comes after deciding who gets first turn, you can take advantage of knowing you’re going first and get into great firing lanes if you choose to pack forward a ton of Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Chaos Terminators: It is often said that arming all models in the unit differently means that you can waste wounds. However, IMO, this only works if you’re likely to fail those saves in the first place. When you make each model different, you’re basically forcing your casualty removal on models you may not want to die. Terminators are still largely inexpensive, but this seems to be because they come with Power Weapons as standard, while fists are an upgrade that makes them just as expensive as Loyalists, while not as good at a range. Chaos Terminators don’t fill the same role that Loyalist Termiantors fill. Loyalist Marines are a bit lousy in CC and depend far more on ranged firepower due to their measly 1 attack in CC. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, not only start with 2A, but they’re spoilt for choice when it comes to CC support: Khorne Berserkers, Chosen, Daemons (Lesser, Greater, and Prince), Raptors, Defilers, and even Dreads and Possessed. Loyalists really only have Terminators and Assault Marines, so their need for Terminators is far more pronounced. Only in cults, or with obscene amounts of Combi-guns, do Terminators really offer anything unique. Besides, CSMs have Obliterators to cover special firepower needs, so the “I need 5 combi-meltas for anti-tank” argument is a weak one.

Possessed: They’re largely a wildcard unit. If you know exactly what you need to fill the gap in your list, which any good general should be able to pinpoint, you’re better off spending your points to fill that gap rather than getting Possessed who might work for you 1 in every 6 games. The good thing about Possessed is that they’re not hampered by casualty removal because they don’t derive their CC potential from specialist individuals, like Powerfist Champions or Icons (though the latter is always an option). If you’re dead-set on using Possessed, they make good anti-horde units with their base 2 Attacks and Str5. An Icon of Slaaneesh would make them I5, able to strike before most units in CC, while an Icon of Khorne would allow them to maximize the benefits of their Str5 attacks, and even draw saves onto precious enemy specialists. If you want the best use out of them, put them in a Land Raider. A nigh-invincible AV14 360-degree hull and, at worst, a Scout move that launches the LR forward a free 12”. You could disgorge into the enemy in 1 turn! The problem with Possessed that kills them in 5th is the Dawn of War mission. You don’t know what their power is until they’re deployed, meaning that you can’t use their Scout move at all if you land that power. And even with running you’ll have a long walk to whatever objective you need to clear off.

Chaos Dreadnought: The TLed Bolter on the Dreadnought’s hull is a fixed weapon, meaning that if the Dread fire frenzies, it’ll likely have to turn at least 90 degrees to shoot your own guys. You could mitigate this by running another unit forward, ahead of the Dreadnought. The Plasma Cannon is a problem though. Able now to cut through Plague Marines, you probably don’t want that on your Dread. With the new Combat Resolution, Possession and multiple DCCWs is probably your best bet. In fact, if you get lucky enough for Blood Frenzy, you can effectively run twice in one turn. It’s not like you’ll be shooting, and if you hit a Blood Frenzy on Turn 1, you could set yourself up for a nice 2nd or 3rd turn charge.

Troops:

Chaos Marines: Still the ubiquitous Troops choice, and still probably one of the best Troops in the game. Rhinos are now safer delivery systems for your precious cargo, and these can get you on top of your objectives faster and safer than before. The serious problem they face is putting wounds on models that have special equipment, like Champions, specialist gunners, and most importantly your Icons, none of which are cheap. (In fact, the Powerfist Champ is a downright rip-off.) I’ve found that, if you put your Icon on a Champion, you can consolidate some specialization, and a 3+ save means that the risk is often worth it. You could alternatively use units with sizes larger than 10 to buffer your specialists and to confer the effects of Icons onto even more models than before.

Plague Marines: With 5th edition, Troops being scoring has been one of the most critical hits to many 4th edition meta armies. But Plague Marines are probably one of the best holders there are. Even with the penalties to Feel No Pain, sitting Plague Marines behind some juicy cover can make them virtually immovable. Their Fearlessness combined with their resilience to dakka-style CC attacks means that they aren’t easy to dislodge by any stretch of the imagination, likely requiring the efforts (and possible expenditure) of enemy Elite units. Unfortunately, Plague Marines aren’t as rock-hard as they once were in cover in 4th, as all Frag Grenades have now made all combat charging through cover happen at I-order, a place where Plague Marines largely suffer.

Noise Marines: One of the army’s (and game’s) most infamous dakka-factories, the Noise Marines seem less-needed now that fearless hordes can be ground to a pulp in combats of attrition. However, the fact that Sonic Blasters, the only sonic gun really worth using, have an incredible range and fire rate but low AP means that they can be screened behind lesser Chaos Marines (and Lesser Daemons) and still shoot at anything with a 4+ save or better without any negative penalty. The fact that Massacres can no longer touch new units means that Noise Marines can more often catch enemies within 24” to shred apart with tons of dice. Their lack of AP also applies when shooting at screened enemy units. At that range, even Doom Sirens might find effect! But the Blastmasters take a serious dive. What was once a cross between a Krak Missile and a Plasma Cannon in 4th, the small template isn’t as good as it used to be when you need that hit, and whether it’s worth the huge price tag on an already stupidly-expensive unit is up for personal debate.

Khorne Berserkers: Another candidate for the CSM’s “OMFG CHEESE” award, Khorne Berserkers take their place as one of the game’s hardest-hitting CC units. Running makes them engage even faster than before, a pseudo-fleet as it were, and the removal of the killzone combined with forced countercharge responses means that Khorne Berserkers can flay ranks upon ranks of units just by hitting them. I’ve found that Khorne Berserkers excel at both whittling down large, fearless units (introduce them to 32 Gaunts and you’ll almost surely have a pile of dead bugs behind them when the fight is done) or for dealing so many wounds to units with specialists that the specialists are likely to succumb. They get even better when you transport them in Land Raiders. The assault ramps nearly guarantee safe, 2nd turn assaults. The problem with Berserkers, if there is one, is that they’re too good at killing that they can hit an enemy unit and wipe it out in one bloody assault, leaving the Khorne Berserkers standing around like idiots in front of not a small amount of enemy guns. You can avoid this by charging multiple enemy units, resulting in what will likely be two dead enemy units, chased off by a combined Leadership penalty caused to both units.

A point of interest is that Berserkers’ choice between Fists and Weapons on their Champ isn’t as clear-cut as with other units. Most other Champs don’t have that many attacks, but a Champion of Khorne has 3 base, meaning that they can swing a ton of fist attacks even in protracted combats. What sets them apart is that the Power Weapon strikes at I4 (5 on charge), which contrary to popular belief is a bad thing when the Champion’s unit swings as hard and as frequently as Berserkers do. When Power Weapons swing at the same time as Berserkers, there’s a chance that wily opponents can waste the attacks by stacking them onto the same model because enough wounds can be allocated to others. While it’s a sure-fire way to kill a specialist, your Khorne Berserkers defeat the purpose of the weapon and actually end up making it weaker. (About 3 saves onto any specialist with armor equal to or worse than a Marine and you can bank on a kill on the Specialist.) A fist, on the other hand, will strike at I1, and thus you’re less likely to lose the benefits of ignoring armor on single specialists. The fist is also better for prolonged fights and against big monsters, but to be honest you shouldn’t be attacking big monsters with Khorne Berserkers. CSMs have the luxury of having ample Monstrous Creatures and powerful guns to take down big monsters. Of course, if you need the points that badly, you can always go with naked Berserkers. It’s not like they need one extra attack that badly, or like they’d croak in CC without the Champ’s Ld bonus.

Thousand Sons: Like Plague Marines, they can be used for a screen, though somewhat less effectively due to their Slow and Purposeful blocking the advance of the screened unit. Their AP3 Bolters lose a lot of sting against the cover-hugging units of 5th, making Thousand Sons just very overpriced Marines. A better screen could be found in Tzeentch-Icon Marines or Chosen, who can easily interpose themselves between your fragile unit (Noise Marines, as they don’t mind the screens so much) without being so slow. The plus is that the Aspiring Sorcerer gets the same Warptime + Force Weapon trick as described below, but suffers from the same disadvantages. Worse is that, since S&P counts as charging through cover, and the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn’t have Frag Grenades, the Sorc will go at I1 whenever charging, but will fortunately have the services of the Rubric Marines as bodybags. Big waste of a shooty unit, IMO.

***The rest is in the next post. It all won't fit.***

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Fast Attack:

Chaos Bikes: The Turbo-Tzeentch issue has finally been resolved. Now with that cleared up, Chaos Bikes can actually make very potent spearheads. They can work somewhat like small Raptor squads. By turboboosting, they can deny enemy objectives at the last minute, but they can’t capture. However, they do hit pretty hard in CC for such an expensive unit. Their optimal role is to get special weapons into good places, such as flamers into bunched hordes or meltaguns into tanks. Their Relentless rules even allow them to spray down enemies with Plasma Guns before charging, as before the “Relentless” part of the bike only applied to the TLed Bolters mounted onto the Bikes. Either of these roles can be critical. Troops scoring begs the use of the Flamers, while the added resilience of Tanks and the necessity of those vital Kill Points makes the Meltaguns also worthwhile. Even after these uses, Bikes can make good screens for your units, or to get in front of enemy units for a nice, wide screen that your units can advance under.

To the wealthy / plastic-lover / those who think Raptors are ugly, substantial numbers of Bikes can make a potent Raptor alternative. T5 base basically makes them Nurgle Raptors (albeit with large, hard to hide models and free Combi-Bolters). An Icon of Khorne can go a fair way to mitigate their low number of attacks and even make Powerfist Champs useful. Tzeentch lost a lot of punch though. Slaaneesh isn’t as good when you don’t have as many attacks as Raptors would have, and when you can’t take Lightning Claws. Nurgle is just plain sick on Bikes, but the cost of the Nurgle Icon is also sick in its own right, too much to spend on Bikes IMO. The money banner is probably Khorne’s, as for the cost of (roughly) one biker, each biker gets an extra attack. Give your Champ a special CCW and you’ll make up that lost wound in no time.

Raptors: Raptors are actually very potent fighters, like fast-moving Berserkers, only without the FC and WS5 that makes Berserkers excel so much. You could use them as hunters, but Bikes are better at that role due to their speed. The Raptors excel much better at throwing lots of CC attacks and countercharging enemy hordes. It would seem like Khorne would be better at this, but with the practically-forced use of Wolverine Champs, Slaaneesh can make good use of Raptors too by causing kills that decrease the enemy’s return swings. (The benefits of Slaaneesh + 5th ed Frag Grenades should also be mentioned out of fairness to Slaaneesh.) Generally it depends on your play environment. If you expect to fight Eldar, Tyranids, or Marines, the Initiative will serve better. Against Orks, Necrons, Guard or Tau, you’ll want the extra attack because you’ll already have the Initiative.

The biggest drawback of the Raptors is that they’re ugly and hard to convert the way you want them. Ideally, getting a box of Chaos Marines and a lot of Jump Packs would be optimal to get them with the weapons and general good looks that you want. However, this is a depressingly-difficult conversion chore with what bitz GW offers.

Heavy Support:

Havocs: These guys were largely outdone before. Their slow speed and fact they can’t take objectives (like they’d be moving that fast anyway…) means that they simply don’t compete in 5th. They just cost way too much. One could conceivably get more out of them by arming all four specialists with Heavy Bolters, but the anti-horde necessity isn’t as bad as it once was in 4th.

Obliterators: C’mon, admit it, you know that all CSM players are spoiled when it comes to firepower simply for having access to one unit of these, let alone up to three. Oblits can deepstrike in and plant TLed Meltaguns (or Multi-Meltas for poor scatters that land you outside 6” of the tank you want gone) into troublesome tanks, but they also have a slew of other guns. Most feared is probably the Plasma Cannon. Fire into a cluster of Marines and you’re bound to do heavy damage, and they just plain wreck hordes. TLed Flamers are also not too shabby, and there will come those times where you’re facing that one Eldar player with Pathfinders coming out their nose, you know the one, and at that point you’ll be glad you had those TLed Flamers that Oblits also provide.

Aside from their firepower, Oblits can be nasty assaulters as well. You’ll have to live with never, ever going first in CC as long as you live due to always charging through cover with Powerfists, but a 2+ / 5+ save with 2 wounds should set your mind at ease against most opponents. They also have the invaluable Fearless rule that Chaos Terminators lack, as well as being armed with Powerfists that now get 3 attacks on the charge in 5th ed. However, charging with Oblits is a pretty desperate move, usually done in order to kill Monstrous Creatures that you TLed Plasma Gun blasted beforehand but couldn’t quite put down. This will also almost definitely result in your Oblits getting killed or at least significantly reduced in size, but knocking out enemy specialists is what Oblits are for. They’re simply too expensive to do anything less with.

Three units of three Oblits (as per 3rd ed Iron Warriros) is a bit extreme and borderline stupid because they’re not as tough as you’d think. Oblits just aren’t as good when they can be instantly-killed and they don’t take advantage of the new hardiness of tanks. And on top of that, they’re god-awful expensive for the amount of firepower it takes to kill them.

Chaos Predator: Generally the “Destructor” variant lost a lot with the changes to Defensive Weapons being Str4 instead of Str6, while the “Annihilator” variant is just too expensive. If you must use a Predator, expect it to be a pillbox. A cheap Predator Destructor could be used to sit on an objective to prevent it from getting swiped by the enemy. However, CSMs are in no shortage of “Tactical” Marines who fulfill this role so much better, actually take the Objective instead of contesting it, and don’t get murdered in CC. Generally, tanks without WS and with rear armor 10 lose a lot if hit in CC by anything competent, and Chaos Heavy choices get much better than Predators. Only if your wallet is large and your points are sparing do Predators become worth it.

As for the subject of possessing Predators, it’s generally not such a good idea when they count on their good BS and high shot volume to do damage to hordes.

Chaos Vindicator: Thought by some to be good, I personally think the Vindicator suffers a lot of the same problems the Predator does with weakness to CC. Standing still with a Vindicator is absolutely useless because there’s no penalty for moving and shooting non-barrage Ordnance. In fact, Vindicators are exceptionally-good tank-crackers, provided they hit at least remotely accurately. Their AP2 is redundant against Infantry, and will largely be ignored by 4+ cover. However, deploy your Vindicator in a good fire corridor and you can mitigate the advantages of cover or scare your opponent out of deploying in that area, both of which are game-winning concepts. Unfortunately, Vindicators can’t contest as they move forward, nor do they have the range to sit back and park on an objective.

Possessing Vindicators is thought to be a good idea because they don’t hit off BS. However, as BS now matters to shooting (somewhat; BS4 vs BS3 on a Template weapon is an iffy differentiation) it helps more now that they not be possessed. Chaos Heavies generally need to make up for CSM’s lack of anti-tank, and to make the Vindicator good against tanks, the scatter distance should be made low enough that even a small scatter could conceivably still smash a tank right in the hull. Even if they scatter past, a Vindicator actually has a slight shot at causing damage on a missed shot, but the odds on it aren’t good.

Defiler: One of the strangest CSM heavies, their usefulness is largely debatable. A light AV12 isn’t as fragile as it used to be, and the rules for latching Grenades onto Walkers only works against WS (which the Defiler’s is pretty bad) if the Defiler is stunned or immobile, and a Defiler can never be stunned because it comes with Possession. Being a Walker makes its back armor only relevant if the enemy can get around to shoot it in the rear, which most times won’t happen when the front 270-degree arc is huge. The Defiler also is a CC monster without suffering the Fire Frenzy issues that the Chaos Dreadnought suffers. This CC monstrousness is assisted further with the Defiler having Fleet. Powerfists no longer worry Defilers as much because they don’t usually have as many attacks as they used to, and the mass-migration to Power Weapons for many players in 5th will cut down on Defilers getting killed in CC even further.

Defilers, like Oblits, have a slew of different guns. Reaper Autocannons are good against tough, low-armor Infantry, light Monsters, and light tanks. (This can also be upgraded to a TLed Lascannon for more anti-Monster or an added anti-Tank role, or a TLed Heavy Bolter for more anti-Infantry.) The Battle Cannon has a huge reach against Infantry hordes, and the TLed Heavy Flamer slices through close-ranged Infantry units that largely rely on cover to survive. The Defiler also has multiple Dreadnought CCWs, ensuring that both must be destroyed to reduce its nastiness in CC. With all these weapons and target options, a Defiler will have many uses, its use in any particular game depending on what damage it suffers first.

Defilers encounter some of the most obscure TLoS issues in the game. Its legs can be shot under, but allow 4+ cover saves, which can be useful in conjunction with Noise Marine Sonic Blasters. They can also nearly completely screen Daemon Princes and most of the Greater Daemons. However, the Defiler itself is extremely hard to screen without a Land Raider or massive hill. The height advantage allows it to pop templates off from higher up and longer ranged than a Vindicator, but it will usually allow cover saves on most occasions. Is it worth it? Like many issues regarding the Defiler, this is largely up for debate.

Land Raider: With the new Vehicle damage charts nearly eliminating the “lucky wreck” result on a Glancing Hit, Land Raiders with their game-renowned AV14 are the ultimate in armor. And unlike other tanks, their AV14 is all around, so enemies attacking in CC always attack an AV14 hull. Their massive hulls can block Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, and easily obscure Defilers. But one of the most important abilities of a Land Raider is its use as a Transport tank. With the departure of Escalation and the mere mild annoyance of Dawn of War, Land Raiders are excellent delivery systems for CC payloads like Khorne Berserkers and Terminators. Possessed Land Raiders are even better because they ignore Shakes and Stuns entirely, ensuring that they can still cause havoc after their payload has been dropped. Their TLed guns offset the lower BS well, and TLed Lascannons are of prime importance against rival tanks that you need to blow apart.

The big problem with Land Raiders in general is that they don’t do a whole lot on their own, but cost an arm and a leg for points. You can ensure that a LR will rarely get blown apart without a lot of effort or a specialist anti-tank unit working their magic on it, but in the meantime a mere TLed Heavy Bolter and 2 Lascannons just aren’t enough. It was rarely enough before, but when Troops can take objectives to the last man (and specialists can contest to the last) it’s not enough to snipe units. You have to kill units. Land Raiders generally can’t do this on their own. They’re generally supposed to get other units into positions that allow them to wreck multiple enemy units. And while the Land Raider is one helluva kill point to claim, it probably won’t ever score a single kill point of its own.

There is one other way to get Kill Points with a Land Raider: Dirge Casters. Tank Shock matters more than ever next edition, and if you can route enemy units with poor Ld, or at least smother some poor special gunner, you can get a full kill out of your tank, or at least make it harder for an enemy unit to get a kill out of one of your lighter vehicles by steamrolling one of their tank-killing gunners. The massive hull of the Land Raider means that you can possibly get multiple units with a Tank Shock, meaning that you can probably get somebody to fail their Morale check with the Dirge Caster if you go gung-ho steamrolling all game.

Daemons:

Greater Daemons: With Powerfist nerfs and over-pricing across the board, and then running, it would seem that Greater Daemons are looking better than ever. Well, it depends which model you use. You’ll need a model who you can hide very easily, and that means you can’t have widely sticking-out arms (as with… well pretty much all of them but the GUO), or your whole Greater Daemon will get zapped. Be’lakor is an ideal model, and he’s very “Richfood” as far as Chaos Daemon models go, yet small enough to hide. You can also try the opposite route: get a thin, lanky-model as your Greater Daemon (a Keeper of Secrets should work) and shoot around it. If the Daemon is lanky enough, it won’t even confer cover saves to your target.

The third approach to tactically picking a Greater Daemon is an old modeling psychology trick: model up some big, nasty thing as your Greater Daemon, and make sure the model is disproportionally ferocious. That way, you can bait off enemy firepower that should be aimed at denying your ability to take objectives, or get easier kill points. Combined with the above “lanky daemon” strategy, you could use your Greater Daemon as a screen. The Greater Daemon model I use is the old Garlauch, First of the Chaos Dragons from the old Hordes of Chaos WHFB list, and it aims at the third objective. It’s also a thematic shoe-in for what kind of Greater Daemon a Night Lords legion would be most likely to summon.

The pro of Greater Daemons is Combat Resolution. With a ton of decent-Initiative, great-WS, Str6 attacks, you can not only kill plenty of individual models, but you stand a good chance of winning combats by large margins. You may not totally wreck the combat, but unless the opponent backs up far from the combat where the Greater Daemon appears, you’ll be able to get to the opponent when the combat clears up in two rounds. Failing that, killing a unit in CC on the same turn you assault is not a bad thing when you’re already criminally-inexpensive and a pretty durable kill point to squeeze. If anything, it’s a target priority conflict your opponent will have to make.

Delivering Greater Daemons is far easier in 5th. Without Escalation to screw things up, you can get a Greater Daemon into a great place with Bikes. Even in Dawn of War, a unit of Bikes can cross halfway across the board in a single turbo-boosting bound, and a Lashsorc can fix the rest. And let’s not forget that you can explode a Chosen Champion who Infiltrates off a heavily-populated board edge, though depending on a unit in Reserves to deploy a Reserve unit is really risky. If nothing else, you can deploy Chaos Marines in Rhinos and your Greater Daemon will explode out in decent range within just a single turn’s time frame. Basic Chaos Marine Aspiring Champions shouldn’t be all that loaded with toys anyway. They’re mostly to give their unit Ld10, or maybe a Power Weapon or Combi-Gun, so you shouldn’t lose much.

Lesser Daemons: They’re fairly good now that only Troops can hold objectives, and they do hold to the last. The problem is that Fearless tarpits that can’t cause huge damage of their own get nerfed by the new Combat Resolution system. Fortunately, the CR change isn’t all bad for Lesser Daemons. Against hordes of weak infantry, Daemons can cause plenty of damage.

The other issue with Daemons is that the Icons aren’t protected by bodybags like they once were. They can be killed before some of their squadmates, which limits where your Daemons can show up. Ideally, you’ll want some Personal Icons floating around on your characters, particularly your fast Characters. You can guard against this by keeping your Icons in Rhinos, which isn’t as suicidal as it used to be.

A problem Daemons will never get over is that they eat up points that are often better spent on buffing your Marine count. In 5th edition, if you can manage to get Icons on top of your objectives, you can ensure that you’ll at least contest it for a while.

Spawn: Just when you thought Spawn couldn’t suck more, units with Slow & Purposeful always count as charging through cover. On the bright side you can use them for screening very effectively as they’re essentially Fearless and conceivably fast enough to keep up with your basic Infantry. However, as was always the case with them, they’re absurdly expensive killpoint-weenies.

[Sanctjud]

Just a note on Havocs.

You don't HAVE to give them heavy weapons...
They can get a champ+fist and 4 melta guns.... if the 2 in the troop CSM arn't enough and put them into a rhino.

Sure they don't claim, but they can contest.

______________________________________

Slow and Purposeful.
It's a tradeoff, not a nerf. Sure you go I1, but you get your +1A.

______________________________________

Night bringer vs. Abbadon.... Abbadon is NOT a NB 'whack'er.... he hits on 3', wounds on 4's, and has to get past a 4++, while NB hits on 4's, wounds on 2's, and ignores all armor and inv saves...
Mathhammer suggests NB will cause twice as many unsaved wounds to Abaddon, under the situation where NB charges and Abaddon rolls a '6' on his daemon weapon.

Regardless, they are both expensive, and IMO they hurt the army than help it.

_______________________

Dreads: They can't get Daemonic Possession.
And they do not "run twice in one turn"... they get fleet for blood frenzy, so it's only ONE run... that can charge....NOT two runs.

___________________________________

IMO, DP's are still great, can't get a str 6 power weapon from the other guys....sure everybody there contests.... but the DP can suck up AT shots and still Contest and be combat efficient til the last wound is gone.
Wings are still important/no-brainer... it's pretty cheap and gives the charge.
Run doesn't give you the charge and is left to chance, while wings give you a definite movement.

________________________

Anyway, it's a nice overview. Thank you for sharing.

My 7 Cents.

[qwertywraith]

Regarding Noise Marines (and the Mark of Slaanesh in general), their utility has gone up thanks to frag grenades now working like plasma grenades. They can sit in cover, or assault into cover, and still expect to strike first. Fearless can be brutal, but honestly any unit that is going to beat a unit of Cult Marines (of any type) in CC is probably going to beat them soundly. There is little attrition with fearless, it's basically all or nothing.

The blastmaster is a better weapon than before. In 4th, except against some hordes, you would average a hit and a partial. With the scatter rules yes you land on target less often, but it really cements their role as anti-infantry along with the sonic blasters. It is also now no longer a disadvantage to pin enemy units, as they will still run away. Also, the enemy is not always going to have a 4+ cover save.

The DOOM SIREN is the best of all sonic weapons. If I fire it once, I make my points back. 4+ cover save. No, you don't. 3+ armour. Nope.

Plague marines, due to the changes are excellent in transports (suffering wounds on a 5+, never being pinned) and the changes to "get's hot" means they suffer even less wounds from plasma weapons they fire. They can take "feel no pain" saves against wounds caused from "no retreat".

Possessed Land raiders are pure strategic win. Yes, they do too much and are unfocused, but they are AV14 fortresses, inside of which you can hide, say, 1 marine who scores, and you can drive onto an objective. You have to be within 3" of the objective to score, well the Land Raider is 6" by 4". It can block the objective almost entirely by driving onto it. Their value is in KP denial, protecting your troops, delivering in where the NEED to be (and in a 5 turn game reliable delivery is very important).

[Kalec]

You are overestimating the amount of players that will take power weapons over fists in 5th. Even with one less attack, the fist is still the better option. Just look at how many units you said are afraid of fists but not power weapons, and you will understand why csm champs are still toting power fists despite costing almost as much as 4 basic marines and having the same amount of cc attacks.

I also disagree that vindicators are better without possession. Sure, BS actually matters for the thing, but it has very heavy armor, and ignoring half of all glances and 1/3 of all penetrating hits is amazing for a tank that is going to get close to the enemy.

Also, wings are still essential for the prince. Run does nothing to change this.

[rev]

How can you take a manreaper on a normal Lord? I can't see the option.

rev

[Ferrous82]

How can you take a manreaper on a normal Lord? I can't see the option.

rev

Plague Bringer is essentially a Manreaper without the Force Weapon abilities.

[anuburos]

I agree with the Kalec on the powerfist. Most players I know don't like the less attacks on PF but doubling your strength is way too good.

[Sanctjud]

Yea... it doesn't matter if the fist has 4 attacks or 1 attack, it's role has not changed:

Hurting tanks in CC
Insta gib IC's that arn't immune
MC slapping.

My 7 Cents.

[Gen.Ruckus]

I noticed that when making tactica, people often write 'making my points back' its not that relevant in 5th edition anymore, points mean less, its about hitting power, staying power and what can this unit do in game, I wouldn't mind spending points or taking a unit that people think 'suck' and using it to win games, like a 10 man possessed unit with the mark of nurgle in a land raider pushing enemies off objectives if it means I win the game

[Sanctjud]

I don't quite like possessed.

They are fun....no doubt, I use them for that purpose....but I don't really see them efficient use of points in a competitve environment.

Making points back....is similar to hitting power.....not exactly the same....but if it can kill its own worth in enemy models.....hurray....if it doesn't, but does something else useful....hurray.

My 7 Cents.

[Taipan]

I like your breakdown RCD, and I agree with a lot of your points. Few issues I see though in the analysis;

Chaos Lord: A big problem with Chaos Lords was being insta-gibbed by Powerfists. Fortunately, with the Fist nerf, many Fists are being replaced by Power Weapons, which Chaos Lords can largely stand up to. The top-tier Chaos Lord of 5th is probably the Nurgle Lord w/ Plaguebringer. Put him on a Bike and give him a Daemon Weapon and he’s a super-tough nut to crack. You could even put him on a Palanquin and give him a Daemon Weapon for even nastier hitting power. The Khorne Lord also gets a substantial buff with the loss of Killzone rules. Now that casualties can be picked from anywhere, Chaos Lords w/ Bloodfeeders can become hyper-destructive. Running also mitigates their inability to be put in Transports.

The powerfist issue still remains. Having played against the new Marines and other Marine armies in 5th edition, powerfists Champs/Sarges are still the norm. Sure, losing that +1A is a bitch, but it's still the better weapon.

I would say Lords remain a fluffy choice, as opposed to a competitive choice. Daemon Princes remain better for the same points.

Chaos Sorcerer: If the Chaos Space Marines had an “OMFG CHEESE” award, it would probably go to the new Chaos Sorcerer, particularly the Tzeentch-based variety. As befits such masters of magic, Warptime and Force Weapons make a frightening combination on Tzeentch Sorcerers, who can use both each player turn. Unfortunately, many units are immune to Force Weapons’ effects with the ridiculous spread-around of Eternal Warriors, but it’s still a powerful effect to be able to hide something like that in a unit and then pounce with it. Nurgle Sorcerers might be able to put that to better use, if you didn’t care about the Force Weapon. And who can forget the Lash Sorcerer, a model whose “OMFG CHEESE!” cries still ring fresh in our ears. Maybe with the Warptime change, we might see Slaaneesh Sorcerers with Warptime instead. …Meh, I didn’t think so either.

Given the general proliferation of Eternal Warriors, and the new 3+ invul storm shields for Ultramarine HQ's, force weapons = fail. Also, you can't hide Sorcerors, like all the new IC's they can get picked out in CC. Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerors can be hidden, but frankly in most situations a powerfist will be of more help than a re-roll to wound force weapon.

Chosen: The Outflank maneuver is high on the list of powerful aspects of 5th edition, but it should not be overlooked by good old fashioned Infiltration. Granted, hiding is going to be nigh-impossible with TLoS bathing the board, but when Infiltration comes after deciding who gets first turn, you can take advantage of knowing you’re going first and get into great firing lanes if you choose to pack forward a ton of Bolters and Plasma Guns.

Chosen are great for two things; meltagun spam (nothing lives after they fire, and they can still assault things after shooting) and Icon positioning. If you want plasma spam, Terminators do it a lot cheaper and better. Also, if you bother bringing a Greater Daemon, the Champion is an excellent candidate for possession (he's 30 points of waste, and he can Infiltrate/Outflank into a very good position to get your Greater Daemon into close-combat quickly).

Chaos Terminators: It is often said that arming all models in the unit differently means that you can waste wounds. However, IMO, this only works if you’re likely to fail those saves in the first place. When you make each model different, you’re basically forcing your casualty removal on models you may not want to die. Terminators are still largely inexpensive, but this seems to be because they come with Power Weapons as standard, while fists are an upgrade that makes them just as expensive as Loyalists, while not as good at a range. Chaos Terminators don’t fill the same role that Loyalist Termiantors fill. Loyalist Marines are a bit lousy in CC and depend far more on ranged firepower due to their measly 1 attack in CC. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, not only start with 2A, but they’re spoilt for choice when it comes to CC support: Khorne Berserkers, Chosen, Daemons (Lesser, Greater, and Prince), Raptors, Defilers, and even Dreads and Possessed. Loyalists really only have Terminators and Assault Marines, so their need for Terminators is far more pronounced. Only in cults, or with obscene amounts of Combi-guns, do Terminators really offer anything unique. Besides, CSMs have Obliterators to cover special firepower needs, so the “I need 5 combi-meltas for anti-tank” argument is a weak one.

Well, I think Chaos Terminators offer something unique; a tough dependable support unit that can be configured into pure CC (Slanneshi Terminators rape) or combi-weapon+decent assault capability (Tzeentchian works out best here). There are two builds I favour;

Terminator Champ w/chainfist+heavy flamer, Terminator w/twin-LC's+IoS, 4 x Terminators w/twin-LC's
(280 points)

Delivers 20 x S4 power weapon attacks (re-rolls to wound) and 4 x S8 chainfist attacks on the charge. Heavy flamer is for softening up a big horde prior to the charge, chainfist is to rip the last few wounds of a Monstrous Creature or kill that walker which tried to counter-assault. At I5 you'll clear out most infantry and even many MC's and characters will be afraid to tackle you. They're the only squad with TDA defenses and fixed I5 in 40k.

Terminator Champ w/chainfist+combi-plasma, Terminator w/LC+combi-plasma+IoT, Terminator w/LC+heavy flamer, 2 x Terminators w/LC+combi-plasma
(280 points)

Delivering 8 x plasma gun shots once in rapid-fire range. If you're tackling lighter infantry, twin-linked bolters and a heavy flamer should cause a fair amount of damage. On the charge, still respectable with 12 x S4 power weapon attacks (re-rolls to wound) but only at I4, and you still have 4 x S8 chainfist attacks for clearing out hard targets.

Possessed

Total crap. They are simply too random to base strategy around. In a fluffy list, fun; in a competitive list, dead-weight.

Chaos Dreadnought

Defiler is better than this guy in three principle ways;

1. No Fire Frenzy (this rule essentially prevents you from taking heavy guns on him, for fear of wasting your own Troops)
2. Fleet standard (no need to roll 'Blood Frenzy')
3. Better shooting ability (Defiler can act as mobile artillery early-game, switch to close-combat support late game). If main gun gets blown off can still contribute reaper autocannon+heavy flamer.
4. Better in close-combat (Dreadnought maxes out at 4 attacks on the charge). They are at I4, but generally speaking this doesn't make a huge lot of difference (chainfists and powerfists hit last anyway).
If you're willing to give up the reaper+heavy flamer (lets be honest, if you're not firing the battle cannon you're Fleeting into combat so they don't get used anyway), Defiler maxes out with 6 attacks on the charge.
5. Tougher (being Possessed makes you essentially immune to all but the worst damage).

Chaos Marines: Still the ubiquitous Troops choice, and still probably one of the best Troops in the game. Rhinos are now safer delivery systems for your precious cargo, and these can get you on top of your objectives faster and safer than before. The serious problem they face is putting wounds on models that have special equipment, like Champions, specialist gunners, and most importantly your Icons, none of which are cheap. (In fact, the Powerfist Champ is a downright rip-off.) I’ve found that, if you put your Icon on a Champion, you can consolidate some specialization, and a 3+ save means that the risk is often worth it. You could alternatively use units with sizes larger than 10 to buffer your specialists and to confer the effects of Icons onto even more models than before.

Very flexible unit. I usually go for all assault weaponry, because they charge as well as Raptors or Bikers, yet are Scoring. So, meltagun+flamer, with maybe a combi-melta on the Champion for anti-tank insurance (ie that first turn rush, then a 2nd turn move and melta a tank). Powerfist Champ is overpriced, but there you go. Only Icon you should take is Chaos Glory, befitting their 'hold an objective all game' role.

Plague Marines: With 5th edition, Troops being scoring has been one of the most critical hits to many 4th edition meta armies. But Plague Marines are probably one of the best holders there are. Even with the penalties to Feel No Pain, sitting Plague Marines behind some juicy cover can make them virtually immovable. Their Fearlessness combined with their resilience to dakka-style CC attacks means that they aren’t easy to dislodge by any stretch of the imagination, likely requiring the efforts (and possible expenditure) of enemy Elite units. Unfortunately, Plague Marines aren’t as rock-hard as they once were in cover in 4th, as all Frag Grenades have now made all combat charging through cover happen at I-order, a place where Plague Marines largely suffer.

Probably one of the 'power-game' choices in the army, because they are frankly underpriced. They are best used as an objective holder, packing twin-plasma to match their bolters (ie anti-infantry) and a powerfist Champ. Leave meltaguns to faster support units (ie Chosen, Bikers), just camp an objective and laugh. AP2 weaponry is now a lot more dangerous, but plentiful cover saves mean you can still make 4+ saves against most AP2 shots. Weather enemy attacks, bash a few weaker infantry down with S4, then slap them hard with the Champion powerfist.

But the Blastmasters take a serious dive. What was once a cross between a Krak Missile and a Plasma Cannon in 4th, the small template isn’t as good as it used to be when you need that hit, and whether it’s worth the huge price tag on an already stupidly-expensive unit is up for personal debate.

I disagree they have become worse. No more partials, you're average scatter is 3" (7-4), and they remove hard infantry that your massed S4 finds a chore to grind down. However, they as remain stupidly expensive as they were in 4th edition, so I don't take them on Noise Marines. You should have a few Defilers/Obliterators elsewhere if you need AP3/2 blast for scouring away MeQ's, so it's a tad redundant. Sonic blasters + Champ with power weapon+Doom Siren remains my favourite loadout, especially if you mechanise.

Khorne Berserkers: Another candidate for the CSM’s “OMFG CHEESE” award, Khorne Berserkers take their place as one of the game’s hardest-hitting CC units. Running makes them engage even faster than before, a pseudo-fleet as it were, and the removal of the killzone combined with forced countercharge responses means that Khorne Berserkers can flay ranks upon ranks of units just by hitting them. I’ve found that Khorne Berserkers excel at both whittling down large, fearless units (introduce them to 32 Gaunts and you’ll almost surely have a pile of dead bugs behind them when the fight is done) or for dealing so many wounds to units with specialists that the specialists are likely to succumb. They get even better when you transport them in Land Raiders. The assault ramps nearly guarantee safe, 2nd turn assaults. The problem with Berserkers, if there is one, is that they’re too good at killing that they can hit an enemy unit and wipe it out in one bloody assault, leaving the Khorne Berserkers standing around like idiots in front of not a small amount of enemy guns. You can avoid this by charging multiple enemy units, resulting in what will likely be two dead enemy units, chased off by a combined Leadership penalty caused to both units.

I don't think they are cheese, that award goes to Plague Marines. Khorne Beserkers are pure CC units, they live for nothing else. Thus, in a balanced army, you back them up with Undivided CSM squads for fire support/holding objectives, while the Beserkers aggressively intercept enemy infantry.

A point of interest is that Berserkers’ choice between Fists and Weapons on their Champ isn’t as clear-cut as with other units. Most other Champs don’t have that many attacks, but a Champion of Khorne has 3 base, meaning that they can swing a ton of fist attacks even in protracted combats. What sets them apart is that the Power Weapon strikes at I4 (5 on charge), which contrary to popular belief is a bad thing when the Champion’s unit swings as hard and as frequently as Berserkers do. When Power Weapons swing at the same time as Berserkers, there’s a chance that wily opponents can waste the attacks by stacking them onto the same model because enough wounds can be allocated to others. While it’s a sure-fire way to kill a specialist, your Khorne Berserkers defeat the purpose of the weapon and actually end up making it weaker. (About 3 saves onto any specialist with armor equal to or worse than a Marine and you can bank on a kill on the Specialist.) A fist, on the other hand, will strike at I1, and thus you’re less likely to lose the benefits of ignoring armor on single specialists. The fist is also better for prolonged fights and against big monsters, but to be honest you shouldn’t be attacking big monsters with Khorne Berserkers. CSMs have the luxury of having ample Monstrous Creatures and powerful guns to take down big monsters. Of course, if you need the points that badly, you can always go with naked Berserkers. It’s not like they need one extra attack that badly, or like they’d croak in CC without the Champ’s Ld bonus.

Besekers need a hidden powerfist just as much as Assault Marines or Striking Scorpions. Massed S5 at I5 is nasty and will kill things, but you still need those S8/9 attacks to grind down enemy Monstrous Creatures and tough characters. The power weapon seems sexy, but remember you are only at S5/I5 for one round. If you want 'I cut your head off before you could swing' giggles, take a Noise Marine Champion+squad instead.

Overall, I would say Noise Marines are probably the most flexible and balanced unit for Troops. On the one hand, Beserkers hit harder for one round (the charge), then revert to S4/I4. On the other, Undivided CSM never suffer 'No Retreat' problems and pack those tasty meltaguns+flamers for support fire, plus they are cheaper.
However, Noise Marines outshoot Undivided CSM's (sonic blaster > bolter) and out-assault them, their Champion is better than Skull Champion (AP3 heavy flamer wins, as does fixed I5 attacks), and arguably having storm bolters prior to a charge (essentially) means having -1A and -1S compared to charging Beserkers is not too much of a hit. It also means that unlike either (CSM or Besekers), Noise Marines can always choose to back up and 'kite' enemy units with S4 shooting.

Thousand Sons: Like Plague Marines, they can be used for a screen, though somewhat less effectively due to their Slow and Purposeful blocking the advance of the screened unit. Their AP3 Bolters lose a lot of sting against the cover-hugging units of 5th, making Thousand Sons just very overpriced Marines. A better screen could be found in Tzeentch-Icon Marines or Chosen, who can easily interpose themselves between your fragile unit (Noise Marines, as they don’t mind the screens so much) without being so slow. The plus is that the Aspiring Sorcerer gets the same Warptime + Force Weapon trick as described below, but suffers from the same disadvantages. Worse is that, since S&P counts as charging through cover, and the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn’t have Frag Grenades, the Sorc will go at I1 whenever charging, but will fortunately have the services of the Rubric Marines as bodybags. Big waste of a shooty unit, IMO.

Noise Marines out-shoot these guys, and as you pointed out 4+ cover saves make the AP3 inferno bolts pretty meaningless.


Raptors; Here's why you don't.

Firstly, Undivided CSM's have the same Icons, same special weaponry options, have bolters and largely same mobility (Rhinos are cheap and have uses beyond just being transports ie LOS denial, camping objectives from inside vehicle). Undivided CSM's are also Troops and therefore scoring, something neither Bikers nor Raptors can achieve.

Bikers; They just don't hit hard enough to justify their place in the army, for their points cost.

Havocs: These guys were largely outdone before. Their slow speed and fact they can’t take objectives (like they’d be moving that fast anyway…) means that they simply don’t compete in 5th. They just cost way too much. One could conceivably get more out of them by arming all four specialists with Heavy Bolters, but the anti-horde necessity isn’t as bad as it once was in 4th.

A waste. If you wanna spam meltaguns, Chosen do it better (plus they are a better platform for it). If you want heavy weapons, Obliterators do it all. The only real use they have is as anti-horde fire support. 12 x S5 shots is pretty nice, and you can get a big squad to hold your objective. However, they can't score and don't have the flexibility of other Heavy Support options.

Obliterators; The Swiss army knife of Heavy Support. Aside from being 2-wound Fearless Terminators, their other caveat is Deepstrike. Combined with those Icons on your Troops/Chosen (if taking Cult troops don't forget personal Icons), you can position your Obliterators right where you need them. As far as close-combat goes, they're hard to kill and they bash you with powerfists. However, don't let them get tied up by horde infantry in pointless combat, you need their fire support. Best value for money in entire Chaos Heavy Support. Take as many as points allow. I field 6.

Chaos Predator

Crap compared to other options.

Chaos Vindicator

Main gun is nice, but you'll get raped by the new 'hits rear armour in CC' rule. If you do take them (they have their uses), Possession is a must-have, it brings them into Defiler toughness territory, and the 1" of scatter you bear isn't a huge deal (no more partials means you'll still hit something). I prefer Defilers; they can shoot the enemy Turn 1, and hold their own if they get charged.

Defiler; If you feel uncomfortable taking Obliterators (Oblits are arguably cheese), Defilers are what you need. They may only be AV12 but they'll live through all but the nastiest anti-tank hits and lay down very useful battle cannon support fire. They also out-class most other walkers in close-combat (provided you gave them the extra DCCW's), and their ability to Fleet means they can catch unwary opponents off-guard. They make perfect infantry support units for either walking Troops (Noise Marines, Plague Marines) or mechanised (Undivided CSM, Beserkers), and the Rhinos help with giving your giant walker a 4+ cover save.

Land Raiders; Like with my Grey Knight army, I only field them above 2,000 points and even then maybe on 1-2. They are not as good as the loyalists (due to lack of POTMS), and they giant pointsinks. Great as a centerpiece, but effectiveness wise a Defiler or squad of Obliterators is the better choice.

[mr_gosh_the_return]

note on defilers: give them 5 attacks and you got a really good objective clearer. It's fast enough to keep up with bezerkers and hit's really hard. Even against monsterous creatures. The deamonic possession means you ignore 1/3 of penetrating hits, and if you keep behind the rhino you can get a cover save.

My friend plays nidzilla armies and he fears the defiler in cc. Genestealers bounce off it and any but the most tooled up monsterous creatures can beat it in cc. Especially because that battle cannon is a hard to ignore wound-stripper. Only obliteraors really rival it in CC.


Predators...If you nead a cheap multi shot unit you can get many guns on a pred, Try autocannon, 2 heavy bolters and a havoc launcher. It's a pillbox but it's a good one. comes in at about 115 pts i think

vindicators...If your opponent has some ranged tankbusters, kiss it goodbye. If they dont-this is a big button of win.


Possessed...In my experience they make decent meat shields, then you remember they cost more points than what they are shielding. Useless in every way. Bezerkers are better and cheaper and are troops. speaking of which

Bezerkers...I'm unsure of. Really really hard hitting, not so good at taking hits.

CSM: Wow. Just wow. Take 10 and give tyhem 2 plasmaguns and they'll make short work of most things. MC's - use plasmas...Vehicles-Krak grenades now always hit rear armour. Shooty stuff? - charge in for 3 attacks. CC stuff? - Stand and rapid fire. They make it hard to choose other things as they are really good.

Termies. I have a 5 man unit with a combi flamer, heavy flamer, 2 aspiring champs with powerfists. its 200 points. Apart from on one occasion (where from 27 hits i got one wound on a t4 unit) they are amazing. If equipped poorly they are awful. If you have them they really really need a specific role. but the models are beautiful and i love them

lord and Sorcerer: both worth their points the problemis as follows...

Deamon Prince: a great cc unit. a wonderful distraction, too good to ignore and cheap enough that you can just afford to lose it for the diversion it causes

spawn: gribble, gribble, gribble. not great but very pretty in a chaosy way

[Sanctjud]

@Taipan:

Yes, powerfists are still around, I never leave home without them on vets/champs.
Lords are nice when kept as cheap as possible…with lightning claws….and maybe an offensive mark….otherwise, Daemon Princes all the way.

I don’t like the bloodfeeder personally, every time I use it, he takes his own last wound….or helps my opponent kill himself….er….yea.

Sor: IC have been able to be picked out since last edition, nothing has changed there…. Only now, you don’t really have a kill zone to clear. They are not cheese, they pay for some inflexible powers.

Chosen: Melta gun OR Plasma gun spam.

Termies: I only really see them as deepstriking special weapons. I don’t think their delivery options are that great for a CC oriented squad.

Possessed: Are not as bad as before… I don’t personally like them, but in the ‘friendly games’ I’ve played…they were pretty good.
Granted zerkers would have been better buys….the possessed were unique….esp. getting scout in a rhino….moving and getting first turn to then BE in IG lines first turn…………….they are NOT total crap, but they do not fit most lists where reliability and consistency is needed.

Defiler:
1.Fire Frenzy isnt’ all bad… it’s good if you plan your movements out where it makes the most of shooting 2 Multi-meltas into a Leman Russ…. I’m still waiting for it to blow up my own Rhinos.

2.Meh for fleet, you’ll most likely shoot anyway.
3.Depends on what you kit it out to do, but yea, I prefer the Defiler, unique to chaos and a battle cannon.

CSM:Yes, Icon of Glory, special weapons and maybe a champ. Nice to fill out numbers.

Plague Marines:

They are about 1-2 points undercosted though, not huge.

I like melta guns….esp. when in rhino’s….. I’m risk averse, so even with FNP, I don’t like plasma.

Zerkers: are not chease… they require combat above all else…. And in my exp…they THAT great, even on the charge… it’s really up to how the champion does in combat.

TS: IMO, these dust-buckets are just not worth it. But I know many here love them.

Raptors are good if you have the extra points… I prefer CSM squad in a rhino. BUT Raptors have 2 things…. They don’t provide another kill point…and allow the charge after the 12” move.

Bikers: overcosted.

Havocs: agreed.

Oblits are all-stars

@mr_gosh_the_return

Dakka Preds are….funny enough, over costed now.

Spawn are again like the possessed, they vary with ability.

I recently had a game where they humped a falcon to death, then bitchslapped the harlies that came out….and proceeded to fly 23” into a seer council and run them down.

All other times they suck…….not competitive, but they can surprise you sometimes.

My 7 Cents.

[Griffin]

ok well here's a thought - who uses chosen ?

I was thinking a ten man squad with Auto cannon and 4 Plasma Guns, Icon of chaos glory. Lots of dakka, possibly good cover and decent Morale. It's enough of a threat so that your opponent can't ignore it. Anybody else use chosen ?

[Sanctjud]

Nah, infiltrating is a parlor trick.

I rather have a squad of CSM in a rhino.
Or more plague marines.

My 7 Cents.

[grizzly ruin]

Nah, infiltrating is a parlor trick.

I rather have a squad of CSM in a rhino.
Or more plague marines.

My 7 Cents.

It's not a parlor trick when 5 guys can carry 5 meltaguns, can carry an icon for deepstrikers, or bring a champ as a GD summoning platform.

[Buddha777]

I love the post but I think you underestimate both the tactical and psychological advantage of Thousand Sons. They are S&P, this is true, but thats an advantage in my book as now they can advance with my army while laying down AP3 death at their full 24 inches every turn. Furthermore, in todays MEQ filled metagame, marine players overreact and fear those AP3 shots and rightfully so. Even if, as you state, they are in cover (which is most likely a 5+) then they have reduced an enemies save and further reduced their mobility on the board. Their 4+ inval is nothing to be scoffed at either. Since most armies rely on plasma to deal with MEQ threats or powerweapons in CC, they are considerably more survivable than you give them credit for. Its not just against MEQ's however that they excel. Against horde armies a unit of 9 with an AS W/doombolt can lay waste to entire squads.

[IAMNOTHERE]

I use chosen and possessed in my EC list and find the possessed to be phenomenal and the chosen tactically devastating.

Making your oponent think rather than shoot at no brainer troops choices makes for a much more fun game.

[Sanctjud]

Well, I personally don't use DS terminators, GD... nor do I need that many special weapons on an unsupported squad like that.

But if it works for you .... ok.

I personally don't 'need' their services... oblits reach out and touch someone, while rhino's and/or run is enough for me to get places....FOR ME, is what I'll stress.

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Dude, not everyone relies on plasma to down MEQ's..... it's weight of dice of small arms....... and small arms are the majority in 40K..... so when some one says , TS die to Small arms like any other MEQ... it's not that they are weak against it, it's just that it's more economical for the enemy to kill you 4++ Dust Buckets with weapons that don't allow you to make the most of it.
Bare in mind, I'm a Death Guard player.... so I inherently don't like Thousand Sons....

At the end of the day, you'll use what you like. Anything can work well in the Chaos codex...yes.... even spawns.

My 7 Cents.