5th ed CSM notes

[nojinx]

On the Raptor conversion note: I am not a fan of the current Chaos Raptor models, nor the SM jump packs, so I picked up a bunch of Dark Eldar Scourge wings and used those on standard CSM models. A quick filing/trimming of the top of the backpack mount point allowed me to set these comfortably on the model. I toyed with some adds to this conversion (a jet tube in the center, protruding vents to make the wings look more like power-armor packs) but in the end I liked the clean, stealthy look of the wings by themselves.

On raptor movement: I understand the preference by some for the Rhino filled with CSM option to achieve assault as soon as possible. I field both types of assault units (two raptor squads w/ lesser daemons vs. two rhino squads w/ lesser daemons). I've had mixed results with both, but two things seem consistent:
1. The raptors are faster, namely because of the Run rule but also because they can negotiate terrain obstacles easier than a rhino.
2. The rhino squads are more durable due to the two layers of firing required (rhino has to be destroyed/immobilized first). Unfortunately, I rarely have a rhino arrive at my intended destination, but the overall durability still stands - more models arrive in CC, they just arrive a turn later than the raptors.

[Lord Inquisitor]

A nice review, an interesting read.

Firstly, what's all this about a Force Weapon clarification? I seem to have missed the memo on this one. Since when can you use it in addition to other powers (excluding special rules, obviously...)?

Secondly, I'd add that the Noise Marine sonic weapons are all useful. The Doom Siren is simply brutal. I always thought that they were S4 until very recently (not sure where I got that idea, presumably the old rules, pretty embarrassed about it given that Emperor's Children are my army), and I thought they were pretty good as it was. Given that they're actually S5, I think they're just awesome. The first time you get to use one of these on a lashed-up unit of striking scorpions will totally pay for every time you don't get to use it. The Blastmaster is indeed rather expensive, but the beauty of this weapon is that no matter what you do with the unit, you can at least get some use out of the weapon. It may not be 40-points worth in every situation, but it makes for a great "just in case" weapon.

[mr_gosh_the_return]

this is what i love about chaos, the variability:

Nothing in the codex is awful, some of it is just harder to use in certain circumstances.

Personally i really don't like possessed. It's not that they are useless, they can do real damage against certain units (artillery squads for example) but my army i prefer plain old chaos marines.

Spawn can do great things too.... but at tourny level you want to eliminate as many variables as possible, hence even things like deamon weapons (which can easily earn their points back in 2 turns on a good roll) are not reliable enough.

good strategy is having an army that can be depended upon to do its job, which isn't always killing stuff (see: spinegaunts) or to act as a threat (vindicator) or to even do nothing but enhance other units (farseer)

based on this i like to field dependable troops choices and BIG GRIBBLY MONSTERS OF DOOM!!! Bwa Ha Ha Ha!!! (after all it is a chaos army and the game should be fun!)

[Ferrous82]

I guess I am one of the few that love the newer Raptor models. I have a squad of both the new and old models, and I prefer the newer ones way better. I have even managed to pick up 10 of the new jump packs to make my own raptors for a Fallen Angel themed army. Been alot of fun so far doing the conversions.

I haven't tried fielding spawn or possessed yet, but I simply can't justify buying the models based on thier stats. There are simply just better options to fill those gaps. Zerkers are cheaper than possessed, more reliably brutal, and fit my army theme better. I guess since we really don't have very many choices for units that can screen your army (no cultists for example), then spawn would fill that role well, but I havent found a need for that yet.

I find havocs to be pretty useless. You limit yourself to either buying a bunch of weapons you can't fire half the game, or buying a bunch of highly effective ones, but are even better when taken by Chosen instead (Heavy weapons vs. plasma/melta-spam).
Oblits are a far superior Heavy choice.

Preds seem pretty mediocre too. I even went so far as to convert my old pred so that I can strip it down to a Rhino (of which I am in greater need for) at a whim.

Dreads are too risky to take for me (despite the fact that I love taking Daemon weapons... go figure).

That leaves us with Defilers and Oblits as heavy weapon platforms. I'm fine with that... they are awesome choices!

[Teccala]

I'm surprised that no emphasis is written about "Lash of Submission". I may be mistaken (or called Captain Obvious, sure) but here it is :

With 4+ cover spam everywhere, I think this power is a serious pain when combo-ed. Making an ennemy squad jumping out of cover is a must for multiple reasons :
- No more cover saves for the rest of the turn
- If the squad has one or more heavy weapon(s), opponent has to choose between two painful situations, leave the squad in the open making it more likely to die fast, or moving back to cover (if he can !) and sacrifice a turn of shooting with the weapon(s) he paid for.
- Against MEQ, you can try to erase a squad in one turn with a little bit more than 1 out of 3 chances to success*, using Obliterators Plasma Cannon or the S8 AP3 Demo. Using Lash of Submission to group the ennemy models out of cover. Ok it's a one trick pony, but you can turn yourself into Oudini : "See your termi squad here ? I'm gonna make it disappear !". No more partials can hurt a lot here.

I think few CSM armies are leaving without Obliterators, or any other pie lauchers. So... Was it THAT obvious that it didn't need to be said ? If it is, i'll raise my finder to write something next time ^^

*(HIT is 1/3 and if an arrow is rolled then 4/36 that your pie stays where you placed it)
** "Sorry-for-my-bad-english@frenchguy.fr"

[Sanctjud]

Yea, some people don't like being an ass...
:-D
________________________

Anyway, /sigh, yes, lash has a lot of uses, etc. etc. etc.
But dude Teccala, your first post in Warseer is to bring up Lash....ugh.

Demo has better stats thatn 8/3, you are thinking of the Battle Cannon, but it's all the same vs. MEQ, just a distance issue.

Grouping ppl is not new with lash really, most of these have already been gone through when the codex came out.

My 7 Cents.

[Kroxigore]

Yea, some people don't like being an ass...
:-D
________________________

Anyway, /sigh, yes, lash has a lot of uses, etc. etc. etc.
But dude Teccala, your first post in Warseer is to bring up Lash....ugh.

Demo has better stats thatn 8/3, you are thinking of the Battle Cannon, but it's all the same vs. MEQ, just a distance issue.

Grouping ppl is not new with lash really, most of these have already been gone through when the codex came out.

My 7 Cents.

Nevertheless, I think, the lash should be mentioned in a CSM tactica thread, mainly because it has so many uses. The point of pulling people out of cover is a good one IMO. Obvious but good.
One question about the new rules: Is it still the case, that if you fire at a squad and the champion is the only model within reach, that only the champion can be killed? This is also another use for the lash and IMO it's a pretty mean one.
Anyways, some potential uses of the lash are seriously too powerful and I wouldn't recommend them for a friendly game.

[Sanctjud]

Whoa there necromancer, this was 7 months ago.

Lash: just go to bell of lost souls for the info, it's mostly all there and no need to repeat things over and over and over again.

As to your question, the simple answer is no. Casualties can be taken anywhere in the squad, outside of enough wounds to require 100% wound allocation.

My 7 Cents.

[mindtrickster]

I am new to the game and this forum and I am in need of some help. I collect CSM and in a month there will be a 1250 points, all missions tournament.
The Meta looks like this (so far):
1x Tyranid
1x Wolves
1-2x Necrons
2x SM (Blood Angel, Grey Knight)
1x Orks
1x Chaos Daemons

I would be happy to hear your oppinions about my choices for army units.. Reading your posts, here's what I have thought of:

2x DP (MoS, wings, lash) (310 pts)
2x CSM (10 models, 2x flamer) (320 pts)
2x Rhino (transport) (70 pts)
2x Obliterators (3 models) (450 pts)
1x Predator (2x heavy bolter) (100 pts)

or should I cut my CSMs to 5-5 and exchange my Predator to bring a LR (with DPossession) and 2 havoc launchers on both Rhinos?

[samuraibobx]

Imo, that's actually a pretty decent list. With regular CSM, you want squads of 10. What I might want to do, though, is drop 1-2 obliterators and give both squads a fist as well as putting a havoc launcher on the Predator as well as extra armor. Maybe combi-flamers for the champ as well if you have points over.

EDIT: also, let us know how it goes against the new Nids. I've been dying to see some blood on cultist action

[mindtrickster]

as it seems a full mech Eldar and IG are joining the forthcoming tournament..

1. what can a CSM army do against a full mech army (IG and Eldar)? obliterators imo are not enough to crack everything, especially when the other army instant kills them with lascannons and brightlance.. any ideas?
2. are there any special rules for Iron Warriors and/or Death Guards?

mt

[Sanctjud]

1. Oblits are best with plasma cannon/MM goodness, lascannons are way secondary, remember that. Special weapon squads are the primary way of cracking any tank. Then it's close combat, with fist and krak grenades.
2. No, thank GW for that one.

[PapaDoc]

If you want to make your competative games easier you should have fearless troops. CSM are not fearless. Also if there are objectives based missions..... you got two troops only this is not good at all. Drop two obliterators and take an additional troop choice.

[Lupercus]

For myself, who's about to begin putting together a Chaos Space Marine force for the first time, this has been a hugely helpful thread. Overall it looks as though CSM are in great shape for the current edition of 40K, and I couldn't be happier with this. It also looks like the best way to run such an army is to keep it varied(in terms of Marks and even Legion affiliation) which is something I really quite like.

It's been a long read, but a very, very useful one, and I truly appreciate all the work and knowledge the original poster and all those who've added to this discussion have put in here. This is great...

[bigbear bailey]

Only things I have to say is that first chaos undivided are way better then any fearless unit. The leadership 10 with re-roll and no one dies if you lose (unless you get ran down, but at that point who cares lol).

Only other thing I always notice no one commenting on is that spawn a unit type "beast" which charge like Calvary (meaning a 12" charge). They are still random, and I don't care for them much, but I still thought I should say it.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

This helped me so much with what I think will be a super awesome word bearers army in the near future.

Prince- wings, personal icon
greater deamon (modeled as Violator from Todd Mcfarlands SPAWN)

10 Chosen- meltas, champion as GD bait, Rhino

10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- flamers, icon, Rhino
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons

10 raptors- flamers

Defiler
2 obliterators
2 obliterators

What yall think?

[DrunkTerminator]

This helped me so much with what I think will be a super awesome word bearers army in the near future.

Prince- wings, personal icon
greater deamon (modeled as Violator from Todd Mcfarlands SPAWN)

10 Chosen- meltas, champion as GD bait, Rhino

10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- flamers, icon, Rhino
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons

10 raptors- flamers

Defiler
2 obliterators
2 obliterators

What yall think?

Its a spsem list, iT cant go terribly wrong.I'd just replace all the flamers with meltas. Just that overall seemd pretty good. Get some daemons off to have more meltas.
BTW berbon is BAd!!! Stay away from this thing.

[Agnar the Howler]

This helped me so much with what I think will be a super awesome word bearers army in the near future.

Prince- wings, personal icon
greater deamon (modeled as Violator from Todd Mcfarlands SPAWN)

10 Chosen- meltas, champion as GD bait, Rhino

10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- meltas, icon,Rhino
10 Marines- flamers, icon, Rhino
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons
7 lesser deamons

10 raptors- flamers

Defiler
2 obliterators
2 obliterators

What yall think?

Why do your chosen have a Rhino? Is it because outflanking is risky due to the time it can take? Because if I were you i'd be outflanking my GD. It's safer than having him run up the field in a metal box and can take advantage of the Chosen's infiltration, plus you can dump a GD right behind/next to your opponent's army, and don't forget that a CSM summoned daemon can assault on the turn it enters play.

Alternatively, you could use the raptors as a delivery system. Their 12" move can be helpful and it takes more than a lascannon to stop them speeding up the field, something that wouldn't happen with a rhino. Plus if you give them an icon (and due to freedom of modelling, give it to the champion you're using for possession of the GD - remember, this is hypothetical) you could potentially deliver all your daemons on your opponent's doorstep.

[DrunkTerminator]

Why do your chosen have a Rhino? Is it because outflanking is risky due to the time it can take?

Its probably because of that since the chosen can move 12' and frei with meltas.
Plus plus you cant outfland a GD; yopu have to sacrifice a champ.

[Agnar the Howler]

Its probably because of that since the chosen can move 12' and frei with meltas.
Plus plus you cant outfland a GD; yopu have to sacrifice a champ.

/facepalm

You outflank with the Chosen and then use him a summoning stick for the GD.

But again, it's probably because outflanking is too unreliable to be used with a GD.

Edit: Replying to the OP.

Huron Blackheart: When Powerfists once used to be good, Huron was only slightly less clowny. Before, he was basically a way to combine a Powerfist with Warptime. Now that he has less attacks for losing the +1A bonus for 2 weapons, Warptime means all the much more. You can also switch to the Power Weapon and Warptime, which is pretty nice. However, Huron is largely mediocre.

You've neglected to mention the very nice Heavy Flamer that comes with the powerfist. Whilst it's not a huge issue, I think it does make him slightly better than portrayed here.