5th ed CSM notes

[DrunkTerminator]

Oooo; thats what you meant! *bows* I'm really sorry mate i need to ctu down on berbon!
But yeah you're right it still's vey unreliable.

[DrunkTerminator]

/facepalm
You've neglected to mention the very nice Heavy Flamer that comes with the powerfist. Whilst it's not a huge issue, I think it does make him slightly better than portrayed here.

I second that; the heavy flamer is very goood for frying hordes and makes you able sometimes to charge the power claw nob. One friend of mine use's him with decent resluts.
That's anecdotal evidence but some other people should similar results too.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

I thought my outflanking rhino with the chosen and the greater deamon champion was agood idea...
I cant really understand what either of you are trying to say. Sorry.

[Agnar the Howler]

I thought my outflanking rhino with the chosen and the greater deamon champion was agood idea...
I cant really understand what either of you are trying to say. Sorry.

You can't outflank if the transport can't outflank, then nothing can outflank, even if the unit it is holding is allowed to outflank, if they're inside the transport, they can't do it.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

Ok, so the rhino cant outflank so the unit inside isnt allowed to. ok got it.

so whats the other option. Are my chosen SoL as far as a deamon bomb? I mean I know there is infiltrate, but I cant see 10 models being able to hide to well anymore

[bigbear bailey]

the only time a unit can out flank and the transport they are in is allowed to is the "scout" special rule. The only one in the CSM book that can have that is possessed and it's random at that.

[Sanctjud]

@Bigbear bailey:

You might want to double check, if you can infiltrate, you can outflank.
Possessed can't outflank, the timing they get scout makes it impossible.

0/2

[Lord Inquisitor]

You can't outflank if the transport can't outflank, then nothing can outflank, even if the unit it is holding is allowed to outflank, if they're inside the transport, they can't do it.

What on earth makes you say this?

"During deployment, players may declare that units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy... Note that if such units are picked from the army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, buf if they do so they must move onto the table embarked in it."

That's pretty explicit that only the unit needs to have infiltrate to provide the outflank rule onto their transport as long as they ride in it. So yes, you can outflank with a Chosen unit in a Rhino, indeed it's pretty much the only reason to take a Chosen unit!

Also Sanctjud is correct, technically speaking Possessed can't Outflank even if you roll Scout.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

[COLOR="Magenta"]That's pretty explicit that only the unit needs to have infiltrate to provide the outflank rule onto their transport as long as they ride in it. So yes, you can outflank with a Chosen unit in a Rhino, indeed it's pretty much the only reason to take a Chosen unit!
COLOR]

So scouting Chosed with icon and Greater Deamon are definalty a go now!

[Lord Inquisitor]

So scouting Chosed with icon and Greater Deamon are definalty a go now!

That can work but it's not likely. You can't possess a model that's not on the table at the start of the turn, so that only works if you roll the chosen up first and the daemon the next turn (25% chance) and that's if your chosen come on the right side and survive to the next turn. Much better as a meltagun equipped unit to smoke enemy tanks. Not that chosen + greater daemon aren't good together just don't expect it to work often. Same goes for deep strike terminators and greater daemon. The more champions you throw at the enemy the more chance of getting the daemon in a good position.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

Any other good delivery systems for one then?

[Sanctjud]

CSM in rhino on board first turn.
No, the GD is second tier, IMO, by virtue of relying on something 100% of the time. Boooo Jarvis, boooo for reasons other than the CSM codex.

[Dasqueek-Master Assassin]

Well it definatly seems like a must for a fluffy word bearers army in my mind...

[bigbear bailey]

well played sir, well played. LOL, but there Rhino may make a move at the begging of the game if they are in it lol

[VonManstein]

Best way to deliver a Greater Deamon is in my opinion this:

2x Plague Marines with 2x specials in a rhino or 10 CSM with 2x specials in a rhino (as usual), just include a plain Champ in both. You always need 2 at least + you dont want to put Powerfist on the champs (makes the GD more expensive) + you dont want to take certain units for it. Just try to include it in a normal list you would.
Its still not top competative though.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Any other good delivery systems for one then?

If you are going to try and use a dedicated delivery system, then that system needs to be on the table at the start of turn 2 - i.e. not in reserve - and able to get into position by turn 2, in case your greater decides to pop in on turn 2. Now, I tend to run on the assumption that its coming in turn 2, because usually that's the worst case scenario - none of my aspiring champs are typically in range of the enemy then, so the daemon is not going to be able to assault the enemy and will likely get shot to death. If it comes in on turn 3+, I've usually a range of options to choose from for possession as the bulk of my army will be in range. There's really only two ways to do this. One is to take a Chosen squad and infiltrate with them. This can work if you keep the squad cheap, if nothing else it can serve as a distraction, but it isn't a great choice. The other is a unit of bikes (also rarely seen on tables) and turboboost into position turn 1. However, I don't typically recommend bothering with a delivery system at all...

CSM in rhino on board first turn.
No, the GD is second tier, IMO, by virtue of relying on something 100% of the time. Boooo Jarvis, boooo.

Jarvis didn't write the Chaos dex btw...

Anyway, everyone seems to be missing the best use of a Summmoned Greater. Which is as an insurance policy. For 100 points, they're dirt cheap, so you can include one and just hope that you can get one in position. Maybe it'll work, maybe it'll simply distract your opponent for a shooting phase. Providing that you don't base your strategy on the Greater Daemon then it can work well as a wild card - it's unpredictable nature can make it dubious but if it gets in the right place at the right time it's well worth the measely 100 points. The only time I wouldn't consider taking one is if you have a limited number of ACs or if your ACs are very expensive (e.g. if you run decked-out cult marines), in which case the gain of the greater may not be worth the loss of the champ. The key point is that basing your strategy on making the greater daemon work is usually a bad idea - in the example above, your plague marine squads really benefit from the powerfist, so you're downgrading the power of your army on the basis of getting the daemon, and it might just not turn up in time or turn up too early. Much better to build the list normally and not worry so much about it.

[PapaDoc]

Of course you have to base your strategy on the greater deamon. It definitly needs a list around it to work. Aspiring champions must be in enough numbers and in the right places to make the Greater Deamon do his work (assault stuff). That requires strategy for it to work.

[Sanctjud]

@Lord Inquisitor:
GAV AND ALESSIO BOO instead.
Editted old post to show error.

[Corrupted]

If you want GD play possessed squad with champion in rhino. He is cheap ( extra 10pts ) and you will not lose anything special. And its fluffy that deamon will left the body.

[The_Dark_Raven]

So I've just decided to look into my next army for 40k, first cab of the rank was Chaos...

The codex I have leaves me wondering...

There is no longer an option to take cultists or Heritics? I was looking forward to buying some Imperial Guard models and converting them into some cultists or heritics weaklings, but I don't see an option or mention of them in the codex.

I'm really put off by the lack of creativity the codex has, Am i missing something or does it read like a Marine Chapter Codex? It doesn't feel very Chaos like to me...