5th ed CSM notes

[sean_scanlon2000]

@valek
Play test its going to give you an idea of the strengths and weaknesses of your list. dont immediately fall into the typical war seer answer of spamming a single unit because some one else says its good. See if your list is lacking anti tank. I dont know who or what you usually play against. Where as my opponents are rather mixed and vary greatly i find it best to take a more balanced list. you might not fight mech guard or mech wolves heck you may not even see lasplas razor spam.

And do you guys play with a lot of terrain? very little or a medium ammount. you can always solve alot of your problems by deployment thats another aspect that people forget when their brain storming their lists. If you have a plan for how you wish to deploy and a general strategy then your list can and probably will work for you.

Me personally i like my unit of oblits but im more opt to deploy other units to see if they can work for me. Ie units like AC/LC preds even havocs. It all comes down to taste and use of any given unit. some times it may hurt you but thats half the challenge of this game if every win was so easy that it there was no point in playing the game because your opponent has better units or more of a certian unit then you might as well give in. me im gonan slug it out and make you bleed to earn a victory over me then again my win vs losses arent perfect on here as some peoples are....

[Xandros]

This is inappropriate and uncalled for, which is why I flagged your post for the mods. I don't know what your problem with me is *snip*

I didn't mean to attack you personally, but I thought you stating "You're kidding right?" was also inappropirate and uncalled for. I'm sorry to come across as hetzing you.

It's not the most awesome of antitank, but I'm not sure it's that bad compared to meltaguns, considering it'll hit 11/12. 1/2 chance of glancing isn't good, but it's not going to get stopped by a cover save, not ceramic armour or living metal. It all counts. At any rate, three rhinos and a daemonprince are not going to make it across the field, nor do they have any option of hanging back.

[sean_scanlon2000]

@xandros i would like to know why you believe that 3 rhinos and a demon prince wont make it across the field?

if your taking other units which for the sake of argument you more then likely are. why do you say that they wont make it across the table? at both 1850 and 2k i've always used 3 rhinos and a demon prince. sure the demon prince has died from time to time but thats usually either in combat or after combats ended and he gets dumped into. (which is usually a mistake cause its kharn and his berserkers who do the most damage for me) In the last 3 games ive played either 1 or 2 rhinos has ended the game perfectly alive.

I've found that if you have other more pressing targets then transports alone of if you mix up your unit selections and come at them with alot of threatening targets then your chances of sucess tend to increase exponentially.

[Volandum]

"You're kidding right?" is a question. Suffer questions to be asked.

[SteelTitan]

Does anybody else think this thread is too much about 'unit x vs unit y' and 'is my army list any good?' rather than ACTUAL tactics and strategy?

[Excessus]

Does anybody else think this thread is too much about 'unit x vs unit y' and 'is my army list any good?' rather than ACTUAL tactics and strategy?

I agree, there is an "Army List" section for army lists...


atm I'm trying myself to find out some tactics for 1k sons...anyone got any tactics to spare? Kiting fiends seems pretty nice, as well as nuking crushers from range (sure, only 5+ to wound but no pesky save 3+ save ) while backing up...

It seems all I have planned for them is backing up... :P

[Xandros]

@xandros i would like to know why you believe that 3 rhinos and a demon prince wont make it across the field?

I've long run two rhinos and two vindicators (as I recall), which is quite comparable, and I've come to find it fragile and would often force my hand because of short range, lack of terrain and poor resilience.

I've argued in a number of posts in this thread that hinging expensive squads upon a cardboard rhino is a bad idea. Look it up.

[Excessus]

I've long run two rhinos and two vindicators (as I recall), which is quite comparable, and I've come to find it fragile and would often force my hand because of short range, lack of terrain and poor resilience.

I've argued in a number of posts in this thread that hinging expensive squads upon a cardboard rhino is a bad idea. Look it up.

My rhinos seems to be quite the survivors...

[Erwos]

@xandros i would like to know why you believe that 3 rhinos and a demon prince wont make it across the field?

Nine TL-lascannons, five multilasers, three heavy bolters, three heavy stubbers, three autocannons, four plasma cannons, two battlecannons, four TL-autocannons, and d3 Storm Eagle rockets are a bunch of good reasons in my 2k mech IG list. And that's just the stuff with a range > 24" - it gets rather worse closer in.

It's not insurmountable, but that's a lot of firepower to drive through for three turns. And you only REALLY need to stop two things from afar: the DP and the melta CSM squad.

[ashc]

Does anybody else think this thread is too much about 'unit x vs unit y' and 'is my army list any good?' rather than ACTUAL tactics and strategy?

There is only so much you can say and do with the codex and after so many posts, much is already said...

[sean_scanlon2000]

@ general response first
Its a bit hard to discuss tactics with any codex to be honest. Most players find something that works and stick with it continuously. Instead of trying different combinations to see if they cant try something new. just because the people you play with go on warseer doesnt mean that they have seen every list option or possibility. there are thoes who dont even use the internet when it comes to building list and trying out new units ect ect.

@erwos your also forgetting that guard well minus the vets are still only BS3 not bs 4 so their shootings good but its not that good they rely on a high number of shots to get the job done. and playing against an army like that would be difficult as you'd face alot of fire power as you advance. but that doesn't mitigate the fact that through deployment you can cut down on the number of shots you will be getting not to mention mission. also theres still terrain i don't know how you guys all set up your tables but if i coudl figure out how to posts pics up here id show you some of the tables we play on both at the store and at my buddies place. lots of terrain actually messes with fire lanes and makes deployment always interesting. its more of a tactical game based on deployment and controlling key choke points.


@ general discussion

This is why some people don't find the tactica threads to be very effective. people simply tell you spam this unit or don't take that unit ever. its simply copy and paste walla another warseer unoriginal copy and paste spam list. If a units bad perhaps its not the units fault but more so the players because they don't understand the game or the unit enough to use it properly.

No one seems to take into account that you honestly need 7-10 games with a unit if not more to actually determine if you like it or if it can work for you or not. some times the dice are very very good to you and other times you couldn't roll a 3+ to save your life.

[Erwos]

This is why some people don't find the tactica threads to be very effective. people simply tell you spam this unit or don't take that unit ever.

Actually, they're useless because some people can't accept that some units are almost never worthwhile, and others are far more valuable. They just respond with some whine about "the Internets are wrong", never mind that "the Internets" generally contain experiences from players with far more playing time and ability. Thus, we spend time going over the same things over and over, because some folks are too special to accept wisdom from others or understand that general knowledge isn't just theory spouted over and over. Then you have completely uncompetitive lists bandied about as "good", and others have to go explain why they don't work outside of your three school buddies' lolz-and-chipz game night.

The concept that a codex verging on four years old is chock full of new builds and combos is completely ludicrous. We know what works and what doesn't. If you've got something that works amazingly well and is completely new, go win a tournament with it, please, and get back to us.

[Valek]

@erwos: you compare with op guard crap, really no army can cross the field against that and dont take casualties. But be sure that any unit falling out of a tank will be eaten alive by my 1K sons, and they are VERY durable, people hate the big squads, 3+ and 4++ is nothing to sneeze at.
But yes the argument you put is surely not invalid, but just look at my stats, i managed a lot of wins with those crap units... never played guard, but that will be an uphill battle from the start.

I also said i wanted to play fluffy and be as competive as can.(I never going to play lashprince/plaguemarines/oblitspam)

I usually play very very aggresive, rhino's go on and oblits and prince focus at the matter at hand.

The only option i'm still contemplating on is sacking the Greater deamon and the termicide to put a second prince in...

@ dunno who said but warptime/wind is crap, first of all you will kill alot letting your prince unable to assault open and dead.
The idea is to warptime, crack a rhino and charge the contents, worked out a lot of times.

[ashc]

bolt n' warptime is better, i found.

[Volandum]

I'm generally bemused by people in discussion fora on the Internet who declare the Internet useless for discussion.

[Excessus]

bolt n' warptime is better, i found.

well, he can't bolt the transport and assault the content anyway so...better to let other stuff take care of the tin cans...

[Volandum]

Why can't he do that? Because the people get out on the wrong side?

[CGBSpender]

Well if you manage to explode the transport, they will be out in the open. I don't see how this stops our big daemonic friend from assaulting them.

If you're facing guard with ridiculous amounts of firepower, your best bet is to try and go first, drive up pop smoke, hide dps behind rhinos, also granting them a cover save, and statistically you'll only suffer half casualties. If you're not going first, I would deploy them out of sight, so he can't shoot them first turn, or give him a harder time seeing them. Don't even bother putting things in reserves vs IG. cause of the damn master of douches guy.

[jumai]

Totally agree about ML v AC, personal choice. I ended up with the ML as I feel it's a bit better against MC's, easier wound, removes a 3+ save, and can still give a bit of hoard control in frag mode. Auto-cannon ROF helps against light AV, it's a trade off.

Not sure I follow your logic. Better vs MCs? AC wounds twice as much as a krak missile vs t5, averages 160% as many vs t6 (8/9 over 5/9), 150% as many vs t7 (6/9 over 4/9), 133% as many vs t8 (4/9 over 3/9), and they tie on t9 (2/9 each). Which MCs are you shooting? T4 ones for instant death?

Or, vs 3+. Since havoks are static and squishy, I tend to assume they can't count on never allowing cover saves. ACs kill 20/54 marines each, trees or not. A krak missile kills 30/54 exposed marines, or 15/54 marines in trees. So over one clear shot and two shots into cover they break even. Is this much of an advantage compared with the huge disadvantage against AVs 10-12 and saves defeated by AP 4?

I don't hate MLs but I don't think they're better at the things you said than ACs are. If you want to tune against blood angels krak is crack (fu fnp and fast preds), if you fear gaunts frag is your friend (YOU try keeping 4 squads of 20 spread out), but for MCs and stuff judging terrain, autocannon fire is worth 20 points, missile fire over pays at that price.

[Excessus]

Why can't he do that? Because the people get out on the wrong side?

I was under the impression that a character or unit can't assault a different unit than the one it shot at, and the transport and transported unit is counted as different units, no?