5th ed CSM notes

[Renka]

It's not like he has a list of credentials as long as his arm or something, he just speaks the plain truth and has a good grasp of the rules, math and he posts often. He backs his arguments with solid math and examples and knows pretty much every codex inside and out.

There's not a lot to being good at 40k besides knowing exactly what everything can do and playing as much to your advantage as possible.

Actually, in this thread in particular I haven't seen a lot of math-hammering (I haven't read every page though, maybe it's been gone over previously). Most of the discussion has been around what the meta is like, especially in tournament environments.
And it makes sense from a tactical standpoint, since in other environments there are often many factors that are hard to incorporate (say if you play a lot of scenarios that differ from the "standard game", you might need other strengths in your army that are less effective in other situations). It's not a critique: from a tactics standpoint it makes sense to focus on the "standard scenarios" that are the common tournament scene scene.

[samiens]

There's been quite a bit but its such a clear divide in this codex its often rather rudimentary.

[Reivax26]

@Samiens: I can understand comparing them to Thousand Sons, Plague Marines and Berzerkers. Please don't ever compare any squad to Grey Knights of any sort where it concerns their point cost efficiency for what they are going to do for your army. The weakest unit in their overpowered codex is still as good as most elites in other armies.

[FraustyTheSnowman]

He speaks his opinion, nothing more. It's my opinion that the reason no one argues is either their opinion is the same, or they've come to the conclusion that arguing with him is pointless.

[Reivax26]

They are not the most efficient troop choice in the game. If we want to get into that discussion I think someone needs to start that topic in General Discussion. As far as are they worth playing, sure why not. Are they as good in close combat as Berzerkers, of course not. Are they as resilient as Plague Marines, no. Can they outshoot both of them...yes. My point is that in a shooty gunline style list they would make a lot more sense than the other 2 based simply on their ability to shoot a lot of shots. If I were going to build a straight gunline style chaos army they would be in it, at least one squad, maybe 2. Then again even in a "Rhino Rush" style list they could come in very handy. Widdling down a squad before Berzerkers finish them off has always been a good tactic.

[Finn]

If you go way back, I think I stated rather militantly that I think a medium size unit of Noise Marines with sonic blasters and a doom siren can have a place in a club environment. And then I moved to the Nova area, and there's absolutely no way I'd put them on the table - the regular club gaming here is about as serious as the tournament gaming I'm used to.

Just know that for 8 of them you're paying about 70 more points than you would for a Plasma/ML CSM squad, and all you're getting out of the deal is some I5 versatility, short range anti-MEQ, some more bolter shots (which are worthless in a mech environment) and fearless out of the bargain...while you're losing your S7/AP2 and S8/AP3 goodness. And if you're going to a tournament, that's one more Oblit you could've fielded. CSM need all the help they can get right now.

[samiens]

Reivax26: As a point of theory I don't agree with you- you have to look at both internal and external balance when appraising the relative worth of a unit in 40k and I chose a strike squad because their role is highly similar to that if noisemarines at effectively 5 points less- which should set alarm bells running. Plagues or Bezerkers both have advantages (and disadvantages) over similar units in other codexes so that is a healthier outlook

As for how overpowered GK is- its a tier one codex but personally I think IG is still the best codex, so im not sure I agree with your assertion that GK are so bad we can't use them for comparison. Plus if you're going to play against them you need to take them into account.

On the Kelanen point: he's a highly competitive player who also analyses tournament results etc and tends to provide strong evidence for his views- which often isn't refuted by those who disagree; so it makes sense to value his opinion.

He and I play in very different styles, so I've probably disagreed with him as much as anyone but I think it tends to be the case that people argue individual points when they disagree with him. Factor in that we all know this Chaos Codex inside out and you'll get a lot of consenting opinions at this point in its life cycle!

[Excessus]

To throw my coins in the chat about why nobody discusses the claims of badness with NMs and TS, my take on it is that it's partly because our codex is sooooo boring and bland...

Yes, you can discuss it how much you like, but the thing is it's all been stated and tried before, many many many times. There are no "new" and undiscovered tactics hiding in our crap book, most of the choices in it are bad. Sure, you can possibly make some things work at your local arena, but that doesn't mean anything if that can't be translated to the rest of the chaos players here. The codex has a horrible internal and external balance, and you only have to compare things side by side to realize which ones to use and not.

Fortunately, we will be getting a new codex soon!

[Reivax26]

@Excessus: I agree with your points. I think its really a matter of where you play and the armies that are successful in your area. We had a tournament here locally last weekend and it was definetly not what would be ordinary in other places I guess. We had 2 Grey Knights, 2 Space Wolves, 1 Deathwing, 1 Templar and the other 18 were Xenos armies. The Imperial Guard were not there and neither were Chaos Marines. I should have taken my Chaos but instead chose to take my Tau, who absolutely got their backs broken lol. Anyway, I am sure that this is different from a lot of other areas where people play. In my area, Noise Marines would probably shine based on how people play their armies and which armies are being played. In other places that are very Mech heavy then yes I could see them being less useful.

[Maxis Lithium]

I was puttering about with a Chaos list the other day, and got an odd idea. something I never thought of before.

I could put a Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour and attach it to an Obliterator Squad. They could then deepstrike together.

Normally, when using my Oblits, I deep strike them off my Icons in Khorn Zerker squads to crack open rhinos before I assault, or I drop them in front of hoards of Orks or Guard to clean them out with Flamers. A Sorcerer with a Combi-melta and Wind of Chaos will assist in both those rolls. Wind of Chaos is effective against both vehicles (glance on 4+ and AP1) and infantry of all types, and the Combi-melta can assist where the glancing hit won't be enough to get the job done or where using psychic powers is a bad idea (Vs. Eldar for example.) It will also add attacks at Initiative 5 in melee, which will be very useful since oblits are limited to fists and I1.

Has anyone tried this? Has anyone had success with this tactic?

[Clarkson]

I was puttering about with a Chaos list the other day, and got an odd idea. something I never thought of before.

I could put a Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour and attach it to an Obliterator Squad. They could then deepstrike together.

Normally, when using my Oblits, I deep strike them off my Icons in Khorn Zerker squads to crack open rhinos before I assault, or I drop them in front of hoards of Orks or Guard to clean them out with Flamers. A Sorcerer with a Combi-melta and Wind of Chaos will assist in both those rolls. Wind of Chaos is effective against both vehicles (glance on 4+ and AP1) and infantry of all types, and the Combi-melta can assist where the glancing hit won't be enough to get the job done or where using psychic powers is a bad idea (Vs. Eldar for example.) It will also add attacks at Initiative 5 in melee, which will be very useful since oblits are limited to fists and I1.

Has anyone tried this? Has anyone had success with this tactic?

I never thought of this before.. and it sure adds flavour to the list over the usual lash's

It could work really well.. but the thing to remember is that shooting happens all at the same time.. so if you declaring you using the combi but use the winds first, you still losing the combi, even if its a charred lump of useless metal.

[Excessus]

I tried it once or twice, but sorcerers do best up close and personal and I prefer to keep my oblits away from such things...you might as well just put him in a termicide squad, which is cheaper than the oblits. Those two wounds almost never do anything for me, my oblits almost always gets killed by fists/lances/lascannons anyway...

[Maxis Lithium]

I'm going to try the Oblit + character combo. If I wanted a pure assult unit, then I would be useing a Lord with demon weapon, or twin Lit. Claws. I have a Khorn lord and suicide termi squad for that when I need it. I'm going to see if I can get the psychic powers to provide support to how I use my Obliz. I am usually very aggressive with them, so I'm sure the character will augment them well.

The thing I'm most worried about is that, lacking a second close combat weapon due to being in terminator armour, the Sorcerer will be relying on his base 3 attacks. I suspect he might be underwhelming in combat.

Perhaps I'll try Typhus?

[Excessus]

Gone are the days where chaos termies got +1 attack thanks to their powered blades on the combi-weapons!

[Maxis Lithium]

sadly. We can only hope for better in the future.
As it is, I have decided to drop the idea for now. I'm going to go with my old stand buy, Nirgel Demon Prince on his own to draw fire. He can take it.
I used to give him Warp Time, but since it's been errataed, I am going with Wind. I'd run him with no psych powers, but he can't fleet, so he'd send his shooting phase before assault doing nothing and Doom Bolt dosen't have a chance of cracking a Rhino/Raider like Wind does. Needs a 6 to do it (-2 glance, +1 AP1) but he can do it. Better then a kick in the pants.

But for 30 points, what would other people say? Should I run Big Pappy, the Nurgel Demon Prince, with Wind-0-Chaos, Doom Bolt or no psychic power? Wings are obviously a GO!

I need to submit my tourny list by Saturday, so I really don't have time to play test enough. I turn my quandary to you Internet.

[Kelanen]

Just out of curiosity, and no spite or disrespect intended, but where do your competitive experience come from? Are you a regular tournament-goer? I have read roughly 50 pages or so of this behemoth of a thread and your opinions have gone pretty undisputed by other regular posters so I have to assume you know what you're talking about (I have no competitive experience whatsoever, so I really don't have a hat to throw in that ring).

Apologies, I've been away a few days (and about to be away a few more!)

Firstly I'm a very competitive player in all games I play, I happily wear the ethical WAAC badge with pride, and I don't do fluffy lists, or take anything for fun, or because I like the models. Any list I use is used because it's my belief at that time that it's the strongest that list can be. It's not just wargames this applies to - I've played boardgames at national level, a number of CCG's to national and international level (inc ProTour once), as well as having playtest credits in a variety of gaming fields.

I used to have a lot more big tournament wins to my name than recently (I've been playing WFB since 1st, and 40k since RT), which is down to relocating and employment more than anything. I have had more than my share of wins at club/shop/local tourney level, but I'm the first to say they don't mean much. This year was to be my return to the big tournaments, with entry long planned to the UK Indy GT (the highest standard competition over here) but as usual the tickets vaporised as they went on sale, and I was left on the waiting list. Having been honing a list for 6 months for it I wasn't a happy bunny!

That said, I always phrase things as 'playing competitively' rather than 'in a tournament' because you can be WAAC playing at home (as I am) or fluffy and losing in a tournament (albeit the bottom brackets). It's about a mindset more than a location. If you play optimised lists against other optimised lists, against good players, against common tournament staples, then all of the same factors apply.

Aside from all of that though, I do have a good head for figures and statistical analysis. People who disparage mathammer are generally misusing it, or misunderstanding it's use. I have a fairly vast spreadsheet of a dozen worksheets, and many thousands of rows with statstistics of all weapons versus various canned targets I'm interested, in as well as calculating approximate chances to hit with blast weapons, metagame percentages for the last few years (which are multiplied onto every weapon result to give a 'weighted' damage statistic against a metagame weighted field). And so on... I'll admit to being a stats geek, I have an analytical mind and I love spreadsheet work, and working out which of various options gives the most bang for buck, etc. Often I can dig relevant data from the spreadsheet, or oftimes I'll just calculate it to suit on the spot. My greatest qualification is certainly to know the game well, to know the codexes and to understand probability.

As someone opined earlier - in the case of CSM it's actually very often rather obvious, and doesn't require the maths to show - eg: Possessed can only do close combat, and it's pretty obvious even without running the maths that unless they roll power weapons they will do worse in absolute terms than Berzerkers, and if you compare it (as for most purposes we should) in per point terms they get even worse. And Berzerkers are scoring...

That's the kind of obvious example that comes up a lot, and older codexes like CSM are glaringly full of obviously better and worse comparisons. Look to say GK, and you want to know which is more efficient of Purifiers vs Strike Teams per point, after Crowe, or whether HB or AssC Psybacks are more efficient then it's close enough that you want to look at the maths. Rarely so for CSM though...

<Noise Marines> They are not the most efficient troop choice in the game. As far as are they worth playing, sure why not. Are they as good in close combat as Berzerkers, of course not. Are they as resilient as Plague Marines, no. Can they outshoot both of them...yes.

Apart from to debunk fallacious thinking like this...

Being worse than Berzerkers in CC we can all agree on. But outshoot Plagues? Real world? All figures below are given in terms of MEQ kills per round of shooting since that's what we generally care about and compare on:

5x Plague (2x Plasma) at 24" get 1.43 kills for a cost of 145 therefore 0.99/100pts
5x Noise (5x Bolters) at 24" get 0.55 kills for a cost of 100 therefore 0.55/100pts
5x Noise (5x Sonic) at 24" get 1.65 kills for a cost of 125 therefore 1.32/100pts

5x Plague (2x Plasma) at 12" get 2.86 kills for a cost of 145 therefore 1.88/100pts
5x Noise (5x Bolters) at 12" get 1.1 kills for a cost of 100 therefore 1.1/100pts
5x Noise (5x Sonic) at 12" get 1.65 kills for a cost of 125 therefore 1.32/100pts

If we reasonably assume that half the shots will be at long range, and half at short range we thus get:

5x Plague (2x Plasma) at mixed ranges get 2.15 kills for a cost of 145 therefore 1.48/100pts
5x Noise (5x Bolters) at mixed ranges get 0.83 kills for a cost of 100 therefore 0.83/100pts
5x Noise (5x Sonic) at mixed ranges get 1.65 kills for a cost of 125 therefore 1.32/100pts

As such, SonicBlasters only make a better gunline if you believe you can keep the battle at 13-24" range. In fact I've been generous because in my experience you'll generally only get one round at that range, and then it's all close which favours the Plagues massively. Then when you get to assault then it favours the Plagues even more! Actually I'd say the best use for Noise Marines isn't a gunline but some kind of moving reactive wave that makes best use of their assault/heavy stats but the moment they move they lose a third of their firepower, and don't get to double it if moving takes them within 12" like their competitors. You can add in BlastMasters, but at 40pts it doesn't help the Noise Marines efficiency any either.

Note that all of this was purely about comparing damage output. Think about that carefully - Plagues are best in the real world for damage output - and that's not even why we buy them. Their schtick is having T5, having FNP and having Blight Grenades - none of which factor in this. They are the best AND get all their best attributes thrown on top as freebies.

Plagues are probably the single biggest design flaw in the CSM codex - they obliterated the design space for anything else vaguely similar. Berzerkers, DP's and Oblits are all quite fair - they are good at what they are supposed to be good at, but not a lot else, but Plagues, by virtue of low cost, and the ability to take two special weapons in 5 men dominate shooting. Plagues should have had 1/5 and basic CSM have 2/5 - then you'd have a real choice: CSM would be the static firebase, Noise marines the mobile one, and Plagues would be tenacious objective campers. As it is they are the most efficient source of firepower in the Troops section (and indeed most of the rest) as well as being tough of nails, and they are the best at all 3 roles. They got given far too many shinies...

Noise Marines should have a role, but until they get buffed, or Plagues nerfed they just don't. Those Sonic Blasters desperately needed to be free...

[Kelanen]

@Samiens: I can understand comparing them to Thousand Sons, Plague Marines and Berzerkers. Please don't ever compare any squad to Grey Knights of any sort where it concerns their point cost efficiency for what they are going to do for your army. The weakest unit in their overpowered codex is still as good as most elites in other armies.

I'm afraid I disagree. Regardless of how overpowered you feel GK are, the fact remains that they are out there, and you will face them. A lot. Especially playing competitively.

You need to compare to other things in the codex to see if you are selecting the right unit for the job. But you also need to compare to other codexes to see if you are using the right codex for the job - if another army does exactly what you are doing but better/cheaper then you are not playing a competitive list.

[Kelanen]

I was puttering about with a Chaos list the other day, and got an odd idea. something I never thought of before.

I could put a Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour and attach it to an Obliterator Squad. They could then deepstrike together.

I wouldn't actually advocate deepstriking either in most circumstances. That said, if you are wedded to the idea of a Sorcerer instead of a DP then, putting him with Oblits isn't a completely terrible plan. The Sorcerer (I'm assuming we are talking Lash or scrub everything I'm saying - it is a terrible plan) will often want to be lashing things into clumps for the Oblits anyway, and he gives you some ablative wounds and wound allocation tricks to keep the squad alive longer.

What stops it being a great plan are three things: That Lash only has 24" whilst your Plasma cannons are 36" - a niggle, but you can often work with that. Secondly, the unit all has to fire as one, so they won't be clumped for this round of plasma death, only the next. Lastly, for the same issue on turns when you want to fire the Lascannons or Multi-Meltas at vehicles though (turn 1, possibly 2, and probably another at random) your sorcerer just sits their like a lemon, and that's a third to a half of his output squandered. The first problem is an annoyance, and the ablative wounds are probably a bigger gain, but the second and third problems are huge.

[RunepriestRidcully]

What are the best non possesion upgrades on the Land raider? Are combi weapons or extra armour any good? As much as I usually love the Havok launcher on my transports, I just can't see it working that well with the lascannons and would not be good when it got close to the enemy. Are Dozer blades worth it?

[IAMNOTHERE]

If you're not going possession then keeping your assault vehicle moving is a priority - extra armour can help with that as can dozer blades.

There's nothing worse than smashing through cover to find your 250pt taxi and squad immobilised high and dry.