It very much depends on points level and how many Heavy slots you are using.Originally Posted by LinkinparkChaos
3x 2 Oblits is much better than 2x 3 Oblits for example. Right up until the point that you want that 3rd Heavy slot - at which point you merge to 2x 3, and use the 3rd slot.
At up to 1k, 2 man squads is probably right. It's mostly wrong by the time you get to 1500 and certainly by 1750.
Kelanen
I can attest to this. Above 1750 and 1850, my 2x2 Oblits don't last as long as I'd like them to. I just can't be bothered to make 2 more, especially this close to a new book, so I'll have to live with that for now.
Also, can I get a copy of that spreadsheet? It sounds like something I would do on my own time, if I weren't sucked into other projects. I assume in your version the metagame totals can already be adjusted...
My Chaos Project Log - ride the lightning!
I was talking about 10 man squads of Plaguemarines instead of 2 5 man squads. I do use Plaguemarines because they are a good unit to have around. Only an idiot wouldn't use them given the chance. My point earlier was that 10 Plaguemarines in one squad was a lot more viable than 2 5 man squads. 5 Plaguemarines are not invincible unlike what you might believe. Yes I do play competitively and have for the last 11 years. I refuse to play 5 man squads of anything with the exception of Terminators. I usually run 7-8 man squads of Plaguemarines and they do just fine. They still have the firepower of the 5 man squad but they tend to live a bit longer since there are more of them. My hope is that the cult choices have a minimum on their number equal to the sacred number of their God which would help out the situation quite a bit.
I understand the concept of MSU, its not hard to get the notion that having a bunch of small units makes it harder for your opponent to cripple you while maximizing your ability to spread your fire. Where I do have a problem with it is that it is much easier to lose squads that way. 5 Plague's in a Rhino with Double Meltaguns is not too much of a points sink but when you do it 4 times it starts to go up a bit. Rhinos are notorious for being easy to blow up by just about anything and we all agree that you have to put them in the Rhinos, which means you have to spend points on a tank that is most likely going to die just to make the 5 guys viable. That is hoping they actually get close enough to use the Meltaguns since their range sucks. I give mine Plasmaguns because I want them to be able to reach out a little further.
What Chaos needs is Drop Pods, period. Call them something else, who cares. Just give us the rules for Drop Pod Assault and call it something different if you like. I am not a huge fan of Rhino rush armies, not even in 3rd ed when you could Rhino Rush. Relying on Armor 11 is stupid.
Yeah, because a minimum number of nine rubrics will surely work... /facepalm
And we do have drop pods, they are called "Dreadclaws". Last time I checked they were useable in regular 40k games as well...
Dreadclaws are not tournament legal. If GW had any sense at all then all the stuff from Forge World would be legal in all the tournaments with the exception of the super heavy units for Apoc.
Reivax26, apologies if this comes across as harsh but it feels like you're pushing your personal preferences, rather than what is actually competitive. If you play specialised units then msu makes competitive sense in 5th ed. I believe there is a place for slightly larger units of plagues- but they need a power fist and you need to play in such a way that what you want is flexible competence, not out and out efficiency.
I play that way but its very clear that most people, especially competitive players, don't play that way and so advocating specialised minimum cost units is the best thing to build and any mathematical/analytical approach is going to come that conclusion.
All that enlargening minimum sizes would do, should 6th ed not eliminate msu as the optimal set up, is make CSM uncompetitive and make noise marines (with a minimum of 6) the best choice for no reason other than the other cults are arbitrarily more expensive.
The game is big enough to support different philiosophies, it seems unnecessary to push your opinion on others.
Maulerfiends are on the loose, Maulerfiends are go;
Mauler, Mauler, Mauler, Maulerfiends!
Hey, my Berzekers are 8 or more at all times...
My Chaos Project Log - ride the lightning!
And yet it takes 18 bolters to kill a Terminator, and 27 to kill a Plague Marine. If your 5 man Terminator squad is survivable enough then Plagues are 50% more so. Sorry, but you are just talking out of your ****!
No, that would just force a minimum number on us - it does nothing to make it good or efficient, it just forces people to play more to your preferred style.
...and yet it seems to work just fine for the rest of the world. So well in fact that it's dominated the metagame for almost all codexes and all army styles these last few years. I guess we all got it wrong all this time, and you got it right...
Dreadclaws are as legal as anything else in 40k, which is to say it's TO choice. GW has zero say whatsoever in what's legal or not unless they are running it - ie: it's a store tournament (where yes, FW IS legal in every store I've played in).
Given that 95% of high level tournaments are not run by GW, and if anything that number will only increase as they have been pulling out of organised play, it's individual TO's that you need to talk to. Actually (over here at least) FW is often allowed, particularly in the smaller tournaments. The national level tournaments generally don't allow it purely on the basis it's a whole new swathe of canon their judges need to be familiar with, and it's easier not to - that's not ever going to change. At that level GW generally make the same ruling - eg: ToS.
Kelanen
@Kelanen, do you run any Dreadclaws, or have you in the past?
Just wondering what you think would be best to throw in there...given that Dreadclaws are 30? points more than a bare Rhino, it's an investment that requires a little more planning.
The ability to get a Dreadnought next to the enemy seems tasty, but one lone Dread is likely to be toast sooner than later. So 2 DCCW Dreads with Heavy Flamer would have a nice impact. But it kills 2 Elite slots and I like my Terminators (which if kitted out with H Flamer and 2 x P Fists run at 45 points less, not that I run them like this, but could)...
The best I can think of is objective holders. Which comes down to Plagues. Dropping them next to cover to take and hold, while the Dreadclaws move off to be useful elsewhere...
I just can't get my head around their best use...maybe there isn't one, damn it, why did I just kitbash 2 Dreadclaws??!?!
Hmmm...question about the dreadclaw though. "Ten models or one dreadnought", what about terminators? I can't find any restrictions against them in there anywhere...
For terminators, if there is no restriction in the unit entry, then they can embark, taking up two spaces of course. pg 66 of the BRB has something relevant to this in the left column.
Darn, so it really was defined somewhere other than the LR entry in the CSM codex...oh well...too bad, would have been fun otherwise, hehe
Wouldn't have been without precedent. The space marine boarding ram from Forge World counts terminators as taking up one space so it can carry 10.
That's neither here nor there, but I personally find it gratifying to consider such excentricities.
I do run them in Apoc, but whilst I've dabbled with them in regular games up to 3k, they aren't a permanent fixture, and I'd generally not recommend it in say 1750).
I've only found two good initial uses - dropping a Dreadnought or 10x Berzerkers in enemy lines, and I mostly prefer the latter. I did once get a unit of 10k sons deployed in a nice 24" firing zone in cover once (Apoc board), but it has too many variables needed to go right to recommend it.
Note I did say 'initial'. The thing with the Dreadclaw is to remember it's really a cross between a Drop Pod and a skimmer. It's a bad drop pod initially, then a reasonable skimmer. Making good use of it means dropping your initial cargo, and then flying back for another load, and then possibly a third, or redeploying a unit onto an objective at the end. If you only have one unit you are looking to Drop Pod in, then, well basically it's an expensive, slow Drop Pod. It's use or not, is around using it to ferry multiple units. Both the number of units and size of the board are what have led me to find it great in Apoc, but so-so in normal games.
To check you understood the answer correctly - it CAN carry Terminators (all vehicles can, unless it says otherwise, hence GK Termies in Chimeras), but you'll only get 5 Termies in there.
Kelanen
I have come to the conclusion that there is no point in posting anything on here anymore. I would like to ask everyone to listen to everything Kelanan says because he is without a doubt correct about everything he says about any subject that he will ever post about on this site or any other site for that matter. No one wants to listen to someone who is trying to think outside the box and that is fine. Just follow along behind all the people spewing out all the netlists and make for sure you build armies around what they say to the last upgrade and the exact squads. Then when you run your 5 man squad spam in a tournament and some guy rolls up with a true "Sea of Green" ork army with well over 200 models in it and you get rolled I want you to think back on what I have posted before and it might dawn on some people that someone needed to think in a different way instead of simply copy/pasting an army off the internet.
Good day and Goodbye
Yeah, I got that...
Reivax26, seriously? You posted crap and it was proven wrong. And for that you will stop posting here? Childish. No, we do not all follow Kelanen or play like him. I myself play Alpha Legion so I play 10-man vanilla CSM units and sometimes odd things like for example preds, lords and raptors. Your thinking was not novel or fresh, it was just more of the same like we've had here before, and got disproved because it was not effective in a competitive environment.
What? 200 Orks? Lash lash battle cannon and lots of obliterators will take care of them for you. It's not like they have anything dangerous at range anyway...
Come back after 6th ed is release because then there is actually room for making new tactics for CSM, and especially in the new codex. But atm, the most dull codex in the game really don't hold many surprises...
Oh, for Christ's sake grow up. So your ideas don't stack up in the cold light of day? You can still play that way if you like - there's no need to throw your toys out of the pram.
Last edited by Getz; 09-06-2012 at 11:42.
Power Armour is for Wimps! Real men go into battle out of the back of a Valkyrie at 500 feet.
Renegades and Heretics Project Log. Last updated 16/3/08Getz for Lord Solar!
Funny thing is with lash and oblits Green tide isnt really a problem for Chaos marines- we have the technology. Just lash and blast/flamer, finish off remnants with bezerkers/multiple plague units(if you run 5 man squads)
Maulerfiends are on the loose, Maulerfiends are go;
Mauler, Mauler, Mauler, Maulerfiends!
Reivax26, same question, have you used Dreadclaws? any stories of their success or failure? What do you think about using them?
Dreadclaws worked for me when I used them before. Its something that should have been put in the codex when it was released to begin with, its a shame that Forge World had to come out with the rules for it.
As for those that didn't like my last post, get over it. Last time I checked this was a forum for people to put their ideas out there, doesn't mean that your replies have to be sarcastic ******* rants.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
